"Last I checked Best Buy won't sell AO-rated or unrated games"
Thats good to hear. And if that standard were upheld universally then we wouldn't have any need for a law. I would suggest an independant investigation into local retail outlets and see how widely and consistantly the ratings are enforced. If 90% of all outlets in Florida/Cali enforce the standard 80% of the time, I wouldn't see any need for it. If 50% enforce it 50% of the time, I would probrably argue for an industry group to work on improving the standard's exception. If less then 25% of the vendors in the area enforced the standard, I would have no problem going to a law as it is obvious that the vendors are not excepting the industry standard on their own.
"So if you decide your 18 year old kid is mature enough to handle a single glass of wine with a fancy dinner for graduation, you're going to go right on out to the restaurant and ord...Oh wait. The only "control" you have is to take the choices the government tells you to take."
I fail to see the problem here. Depending on your states laws, that is perfectly viable. In Wisconsin a minor can drink alcohol if accompanied by an adult. I beleive in Hawii you can not though (My Sis and Mom went when my Sis was 20, and she couldn't have a drink with my Mom).
And in this case the government gives the parent the control of purchase instead of the minor.
As for England, different parts of the world have different societies. In europ violence in entertainment is frowned on, while sex and nudity is passe. Compared to here in the US were nudity is a sin and violence is entertainment. Each social region is entitled its own trade limitations. Heck, try getting some flesh showing porno in to Japan.
As for the future of government pilfering your mail and intruding in your home, I would say highly doubtful. This law does not limit speech, it just ensures that a minor has the permissions of their parent to access the content. The only civil liberties at stake are those of the minor, and even then there is a simple and socially acceptable work arround of going through an adult. If the government were to try and impose further control they would have major opposition from the ACLU and other consumer rights organizations. Not to mention the cost of any such enforcement would be astranomical and tax payers would lean heavily against it.
Yup, and every year we get dive bombed in Madison. People joke about it, every year for the fly in you hear things like "If you live on the east side of town, its time to start wearing a helmet again". I can't remeber the last fatality free Oshkosh EAA fly in.
Was it? Did the Wright brothers have funding? or was it a completely self funded operation? But I agree with you in principal. We wouldn't have linux with out the amature work of Linus. But at this point, a lot of professional OS code has been added. OS is a great tool to keep competition and innovation in a capitalist economy.
Unfortunatly, it has a negative effect on the value of programming jobs where the product competes against an OS/free (as in beer) product. I like Open Office. It saved me from having to drop a chunk of change on MS Office for my online classes. But if everyone switches to Open Office, or other free (as in beer) products, Microsoft will no longer be able to sell MS:Office. Which means that the MS:Office development staff will likely be let go. You then have a couple hundred highly skilled coders, documenter, managers, analysts, designers, etc flooding the market. Increased supply and decreased demand means that costs drop. Good for businesses, bad for professional programmers. So you wind up with a reduction in the number of professional development houses in the US and technology innovation continues moving overseas.
I should have specified, Broadcast TV. Cable is already an Opt In system. And I agree with you, in part. My disagreement is that software vendors do not enforce the ESRB rating like theators enforce the movie ratings.
"ased on your opinion, I'd say that it's pretty obvious you were raised by a parent who, instead of teaching you what's right and wrong, stood over you and forced your hand at every instance."
Actually no. My parents gave me the freedom to try things while guiding me. And they did a pretty good job. Three honor roll college graduates with successful carreers and new families. All of use with solid ethics and a persuit of right. But that doesn't mean that a teenager is going to make the best decisions, no matter how well raised. Life is not so simple that you can absolutely point at the parent and say it was their fault. And I've said that since I was a teenage driving my own parents wild. And I'm sure some day my son will do things that drive me crazy too.
If you raise your child so perfectly that they never step out of line, never push the limits, never even glance at the dark side, they will likely have issues later in life. That why I don't buy the "raise your kids right and they won't play bad video games" crap. I expect my child to find ways to operate behind my back and around my intentions. If he couldn't, then what kind of problem solving skills have I inspired in him?
The difference is that the theator industry enforces the rating scheme. Not the parent. And if a theator was not enforcing the rating scheme and an under age child attended an R rated movie, the parent could theoritically file civil charges against the theator. Your average best buy/comp usa/software etc clerk is not going to ID kids for ESRB-M titles.
So what you are saying is that instead of having the government enforce the ESRB standards, we should have some lawyers get rich off of sueing retail stores and set a precident similar to that of theators.
I'm glad you have round the clock coverage. Not all families are so lucky. And we all hope that we are good enough parent that our children will grow up well. My own parents were very active in my early years. My mom stayed home, my dad taught me right from wrong, I was in sports and into mechanics/computers. But when I was 14 I smoked, I listened to loud music, I pushed the envelope. That's what being a teenager is about, coming into your own, seeing what you can and can't do. Its not like we can or even want to coddle our children until they are 18 then boot them too the curb and expect them to fly off into a successful life.
Would violent video games have changed me? Doubtful, but would my mother like to have known that I was at home playing strategy games or police shooters?
-Rick
So you are saying that I as a parent should quit my job and stand by my child at all points in time throughout the day to make sure he doesn't leave school at lunch and buy a pack of smokes?
If so, that would mean that the government would have to pay for our cost of living as I no longer have a job. So yes, we would protect the rights of minors so that they could buy cigarettes at the cost of a huge percentage of our work force.
"The government does not say that a minor cannot buy an R-rated movie. Why should the government say that a minor cannot buy an M-rated game? There is no difference."
The government says you can not sell Playboy to a minor. The content of playboy is no worse then anything you'd see in an R-rated movie today (due to the rating association lowering standards and bowing down to big budget movie makers). The problem is not that the government does prevent the sale of R-rated material to minors. The problem is that a corporate entity has altered the ratings system to maximize profits.
True, I can lock my child in a dog cage in the basement to keep him safe from the evils of society also. But that would be rather ubsurd, illegal, and all round sickening.
The same arguement could be made for smoking. Why should the government prohibit the sale of cigarettes to a minor? Shouldn't it be the parents job to make sure their child doesn't smoke? Same for alcohol, pornography, and tatoos. The goverment is giving parents the control.
The government is not saying that the industry can not make these games. It is not saying that minors can not play these games. It is saying that if a minor wants to purchase these games they need a parent or guardian.
So what are you going to do when your child gets home from school at 3:45pm and you get home from work at 6:30? At this point, our children are young enough that we can absolutely control what video games they are exposed to. But a 14 year old kid is significantly harder to keep tabs on.
I have no problem monitoring what games on my computer my son plays (expecially since he's 2 LOL) but there are a few problems here.
1) If my child does buy something that I don't think is appropriate, I can not return it.
2) With the advent of live CDs it is possible for a minor to run a violent video game on the PC with out leaving behind any sign of it. And as much as I want to keep an eye on my child, I also need to work to provide food, clothing and a house for him.
3) If my child is mature enough to play an excessively violent video game, it is my decision as a parent to make. So why not make video games like movies, TV and magazines?
There are also some down sides. Like who makes the ratings? Who handles enforcement? How much tax money is this going to cost? Will this bill have an impact on the game development industry?
Some OSs will attempt to protect one application from another, but usually at the cost of one or both of the applications. And that will not protect you from multiple processes inside one application, or multiple variables in one process. Also, there are still a lot of people still running Windows '98 out there. Is it close-to-modern? Maybe not, but it is common.
True, but a poorly designed overloaded operator can result in confusing/buggy code. A poorly designed pointer math function can result in overwriting memory that belongs to some other process.
Its one thing to protect an environment from a stupid coder. Its another to protect a stupid coder from themselves.
VS.Net makes developing simple applications very easy. It also makes programming very complexe applications relatively easy. True, your average entry level programmer is not going to be getting into threading, memory management, abstraction, multitier design fundamentals and design patterns. But they are there and amazingly easy to use in.Net. I would say that Microsoft's development tools are one of the primary reasons why we have seen equally impressive if not better languages drop of the face of the planet (Power Builder vs VB5). I've been out of the Java loop for almost 2 years ago, but last time I worked with it your choices in IDEs were basicly, crap, and crappier. Either you delt with bloated interfaces that sucked resources, or you worked in a text editor by hand. At that same point in time VS.Net 2k3 was available with an amazing amount of developer assistance tools. And now with VS.Net 2k5 coming out, there are so many great tools to save us even more time! With the exception of default instantiations, VS.Net 2k5 is looking like the best IDE released to date.
Used poorly, it results in crap. But does that mean that we should block off entire development tool from programmers?
A properly designed and applied overloaded operator can be a great tool for development.
A poorly designed or inappropriatly applied overloaded operator can create a mess of code and a maintenance nightmare.
Now, replace "overloaded operator" with a blank and fill it in with what ever you like. "data layer", "abstract class", "architexture", etc... But if the powers that be decide that programmers need to be protected from data access, inheritance, and design fundamentals, what the hell are we left with?
Slashdot Mirror
"Last I checked Best Buy won't sell AO-rated or unrated games"
Thats good to hear. And if that standard were upheld universally then we wouldn't have any need for a law. I would suggest an independant investigation into local retail outlets and see how widely and consistantly the ratings are enforced. If 90% of all outlets in Florida/Cali enforce the standard 80% of the time, I wouldn't see any need for it. If 50% enforce it 50% of the time, I would probrably argue for an industry group to work on improving the standard's exception. If less then 25% of the vendors in the area enforced the standard, I would have no problem going to a law as it is obvious that the vendors are not excepting the industry standard on their own.
-Rick
"So if you decide your 18 year old kid is mature enough to handle a single glass of wine with a fancy dinner for graduation, you're going to go right on out to the restaurant and ord...Oh wait. The only "control" you have is to take the choices the government tells you to take."
I fail to see the problem here. Depending on your states laws, that is perfectly viable. In Wisconsin a minor can drink alcohol if accompanied by an adult. I beleive in Hawii you can not though (My Sis and Mom went when my Sis was 20, and she couldn't have a drink with my Mom).
And in this case the government gives the parent the control of purchase instead of the minor.
As for England, different parts of the world have different societies. In europ violence in entertainment is frowned on, while sex and nudity is passe. Compared to here in the US were nudity is a sin and violence is entertainment. Each social region is entitled its own trade limitations. Heck, try getting some flesh showing porno in to Japan.
As for the future of government pilfering your mail and intruding in your home, I would say highly doubtful. This law does not limit speech, it just ensures that a minor has the permissions of their parent to access the content. The only civil liberties at stake are those of the minor, and even then there is a simple and socially acceptable work arround of going through an adult. If the government were to try and impose further control they would have major opposition from the ACLU and other consumer rights organizations. Not to mention the cost of any such enforcement would be astranomical and tax payers would lean heavily against it.
-Rick
Yup, and every year we get dive bombed in Madison. People joke about it, every year for the fly in you hear things like "If you live on the east side of town, its time to start wearing a helmet again". I can't remeber the last fatality free Oshkosh EAA fly in.
-Rick
Was it? Did the Wright brothers have funding? or was it a completely self funded operation? But I agree with you in principal. We wouldn't have linux with out the amature work of Linus. But at this point, a lot of professional OS code has been added. OS is a great tool to keep competition and innovation in a capitalist economy.
Unfortunatly, it has a negative effect on the value of programming jobs where the product competes against an OS/free (as in beer) product. I like Open Office. It saved me from having to drop a chunk of change on MS Office for my online classes. But if everyone switches to Open Office, or other free (as in beer) products, Microsoft will no longer be able to sell MS:Office. Which means that the MS:Office development staff will likely be let go. You then have a couple hundred highly skilled coders, documenter, managers, analysts, designers, etc flooding the market. Increased supply and decreased demand means that costs drop. Good for businesses, bad for professional programmers. So you wind up with a reduction in the number of professional development houses in the US and technology innovation continues moving overseas.
Got to love the world market, eh?
-Rick
Now there's a post worth some mod points. Returning open box software to best buy under the pretense that it was purchased by a minor. Thanks!
-Rick
I should have specified, Broadcast TV. Cable is already an Opt In system. And I agree with you, in part. My disagreement is that software vendors do not enforce the ESRB rating like theators enforce the movie ratings.
-Rick
"ased on your opinion, I'd say that it's pretty obvious you were raised by a parent who, instead of teaching you what's right and wrong, stood over you and forced your hand at every instance."
Actually no. My parents gave me the freedom to try things while guiding me. And they did a pretty good job. Three honor roll college graduates with successful carreers and new families. All of use with solid ethics and a persuit of right. But that doesn't mean that a teenager is going to make the best decisions, no matter how well raised. Life is not so simple that you can absolutely point at the parent and say it was their fault. And I've said that since I was a teenage driving my own parents wild. And I'm sure some day my son will do things that drive me crazy too.
If you raise your child so perfectly that they never step out of line, never push the limits, never even glance at the dark side, they will likely have issues later in life. That why I don't buy the "raise your kids right and they won't play bad video games" crap. I expect my child to find ways to operate behind my back and around my intentions. If he couldn't, then what kind of problem solving skills have I inspired in him?
-Rick
The difference is that the theator industry enforces the rating scheme. Not the parent. And if a theator was not enforcing the rating scheme and an under age child attended an R rated movie, the parent could theoritically file civil charges against the theator. Your average best buy/comp usa/software etc clerk is not going to ID kids for ESRB-M titles.
So what you are saying is that instead of having the government enforce the ESRB standards, we should have some lawyers get rich off of sueing retail stores and set a precident similar to that of theators.
-Rick
Would you rely on aircraft designed and built by amatures?
-Rick
Man that would be a great game. For adults.
-Rick
I'm glad you have round the clock coverage. Not all families are so lucky. And we all hope that we are good enough parent that our children will grow up well. My own parents were very active in my early years. My mom stayed home, my dad taught me right from wrong, I was in sports and into mechanics/computers. But when I was 14 I smoked, I listened to loud music, I pushed the envelope. That's what being a teenager is about, coming into your own, seeing what you can and can't do. Its not like we can or even want to coddle our children until they are 18 then boot them too the curb and expect them to fly off into a successful life. Would violent video games have changed me? Doubtful, but would my mother like to have known that I was at home playing strategy games or police shooters? -Rick
So you are saying that I as a parent should quit my job and stand by my child at all points in time throughout the day to make sure he doesn't leave school at lunch and buy a pack of smokes?
If so, that would mean that the government would have to pay for our cost of living as I no longer have a job. So yes, we would protect the rights of minors so that they could buy cigarettes at the cost of a huge percentage of our work force.
"The government does not say that a minor cannot buy an R-rated movie. Why should the government say that a minor cannot buy an M-rated game? There is no difference."
The government says you can not sell Playboy to a minor. The content of playboy is no worse then anything you'd see in an R-rated movie today (due to the rating association lowering standards and bowing down to big budget movie makers). The problem is not that the government does prevent the sale of R-rated material to minors. The problem is that a corporate entity has altered the ratings system to maximize profits.
-Rick
True, I can lock my child in a dog cage in the basement to keep him safe from the evils of society also. But that would be rather ubsurd, illegal, and all round sickening.
The same arguement could be made for smoking. Why should the government prohibit the sale of cigarettes to a minor? Shouldn't it be the parents job to make sure their child doesn't smoke? Same for alcohol, pornography, and tatoos. The goverment is giving parents the control.
The government is not saying that the industry can not make these games. It is not saying that minors can not play these games. It is saying that if a minor wants to purchase these games they need a parent or guardian.
-Rick
So the answer is for coders to live off well-fair and with their parents?
Personally, I think that idea sucks. I'd much rather atleast get some VC to survive off of and launch an LLC to get the product up.
-Rick
So what are you going to do when your child gets home from school at 3:45pm and you get home from work at 6:30? At this point, our children are young enough that we can absolutely control what video games they are exposed to. But a 14 year old kid is significantly harder to keep tabs on.
-Rick
"Unless of course you're doing something with free software like Bittorrent where you don't need to money and everything else is cost neglible."
Yes, because software developers don't eat and have no need for earthly goods.
-Rick
I have no problem monitoring what games on my computer my son plays (expecially since he's 2 LOL) but there are a few problems here.
1) If my child does buy something that I don't think is appropriate, I can not return it.
2) With the advent of live CDs it is possible for a minor to run a violent video game on the PC with out leaving behind any sign of it. And as much as I want to keep an eye on my child, I also need to work to provide food, clothing and a house for him.
3) If my child is mature enough to play an excessively violent video game, it is my decision as a parent to make. So why not make video games like movies, TV and magazines?
There are also some down sides. Like who makes the ratings? Who handles enforcement? How much tax money is this going to cost? Will this bill have an impact on the game development industry?
-Rick
Some OSs will attempt to protect one application from another, but usually at the cost of one or both of the applications. And that will not protect you from multiple processes inside one application, or multiple variables in one process. Also, there are still a lot of people still running Windows '98 out there. Is it close-to-modern? Maybe not, but it is common.
-Rick
True, but a poorly designed overloaded operator can result in confusing/buggy code. A poorly designed pointer math function can result in overwriting memory that belongs to some other process.
Its one thing to protect an environment from a stupid coder. Its another to protect a stupid coder from themselves.
-Rick
VS.Net makes developing simple applications very easy. It also makes programming very complexe applications relatively easy. True, your average entry level programmer is not going to be getting into threading, memory management, abstraction, multitier design fundamentals and design patterns. But they are there and amazingly easy to use in .Net. I would say that Microsoft's development tools are one of the primary reasons why we have seen equally impressive if not better languages drop of the face of the planet (Power Builder vs VB5). I've been out of the Java loop for almost 2 years ago, but last time I worked with it your choices in IDEs were basicly, crap, and crappier. Either you delt with bloated interfaces that sucked resources, or you worked in a text editor by hand. At that same point in time VS.Net 2k3 was available with an amazing amount of developer assistance tools. And now with VS.Net 2k5 coming out, there are so many great tools to save us even more time! With the exception of default instantiations, VS.Net 2k5 is looking like the best IDE released to date.
-Rick
Used poorly, it results in crap. But does that mean that we should block off entire development tool from programmers?
A properly designed and applied overloaded operator can be a great tool for development.
A poorly designed or inappropriatly applied overloaded operator can create a mess of code and a maintenance nightmare.
Now, replace "overloaded operator" with a blank and fill it in with what ever you like. "data layer", "abstract class", "architexture", etc... But if the powers that be decide that programmers need to be protected from data access, inheritance, and design fundamentals, what the hell are we left with?
-Rick
"When you've paid $$$ for the software, you expect it to work."
And when you get the software for free, you expect it to have issues.
-Rick
That was the worst conclusion ever concieved.
-Rick
Yup, she is what I would call... Experienced.
-Rick
a MS rep says something positive getting posted on Slashdot is the equivilant of posting a "book 2 is boring" article on TheOneRing.net
No suprise on the reaction. Group dynamics maintained.
-Rick