...who actually drudges through the mid/lower levels of this game and doesn't get the idea to write a bot to do the dirty work?
*raises hand*
I enjoy the dirty work. I like finding ways to efficiently grind. I like seeing if I'm capable of clearing an area so fast I'm done before it all respawns. I like tooling around with different DPS cycles. I like ignoring efficient grinding methods for flare. I like needlessly jumping around when fighting otherwise stationary mobs. I like standing still. I like spending mindless hours killing things. I like the mental activity and planning required in PvP. I like thoughtfully helping other players without cost or charge. I like attacking cities and depriving people of quest NPCs. I like sticking with one character for an extended period of time and mastering them. I like branching off into hideous amounts of alts who never breach level 20. I like binge playing for hours. I like not playing for weeks on end. I like playing by myself. I like joining massive raids.
I don't like people who don't like the game, but somehow seem compelled to play it anyway. Bots or not, that seems silly.
Except in paying them for the service you agree to the terms of service, which in turn gives Blizzard the right to terminate service should the terms be violated.
Players do have the right to terminate their service with Blizzard and seek it elsewhere. However, Blizzard is the only one who offers WoW service. You have the right to choose, but you can either choose Blizzard or no service.
Multiple services would likely not deter jerks either. In fact, it would possibly only encourage them. "Company X does Y with WoW, why doesn't Blizzard?" If there was a service that allowed botting or other "jerkish" activities, there would inevitably be players moving to Blizzard's service and repeating these behaviors.
You can play another MMO but that's not doing the same activity (everquest != WoW).
I'm going to argue some semantics here, but I find the quoted statement to be inaccurate.
If you play another MMO, you're still playing an MMO. It's the same activity. The specifics are different, but not the general action you are taking.
Lets say I can not run the Boston Marathon but run in a different marathon. I'm still running a marathon. They're different sporting events, but the same activity. The same goes for the WoW/EQ comparison.
If you don't like the rules for Blizzard's WoW servers you can't set up your own.
That is true, but at the same time misleading. Going back to my marathon analogy, if I don't like the rules of the Boston Marathon I can't set up a marathon I call the "Boston Marathon", claim the same history as the original marathon, hold it the same day on the same course etc. etc.
I can make my own Marathon, call it the "Marathon of the Meandering Mind", have a different day and follow the same route, but it's not going to be the Boston Marathon. Similarly, you can make your own MMO that's very similar to WoW. It won't be WoW, and it'll be hard to make. However, that's your option outside of finding someone else's MMO/marathon.
I remember trying PvP in a MUD, before I was systematically wiped out by a bot. The instant it entered the room I was under attack, and it instantly followed me when I ran like crazy. It then vendored all my stuff.
I stuck to regular characters and duels after that.
1. Technically yes. However, in WoW's case agreeing to the EULA is agreeing not to. Exercising your right gives Blizzard a reason to exercise their right to stop their service. 2. Again, yes. But again, if what you do violates the EULA Blizzard has the right to stop their service. 3. I can't say I've ever thought about whether or not I own the data in my RAM. I'm inclined to think that I do, but at the same time (and like the other bullets thus far) I'm liable for the consequences of doing anything with that data which violates the EULA I agreed to. 4. I don't know enough about copyright to answer this. I suspect that this is what this case is meant to determine. 5. They do so long as it is in keeping with the contract or EULA dictating the terms of service. If there is none, then they have a right to do so at any time. 6. Yes and no. So long as the use of the code and software is not in violation of any actual law then they may. Although I would expect any reverse engineering attempts to draw Blizzard's lawyers out, and we'd see just to what extent we can mess around with the software we purchase.
But like any clickthrough EULA, I don't think there's anything legally binding there.
If you ever work at a large corporation you'll have to think more deeply about this.
IANAL, but I've been subject to endless ethics classes, videos etc here at my "new hire" job. Very consistantly they remind us that we can get ourselves and our company in a lot of trouble by accepting EULAs irresponsibly. If I were to produce software on a tool with a statement in its EULA that forbade producing that kind of software, I could be responsible for a forced recall on an new product. Chances are I wouldn't keep my job.
At the very least EULAs are a contract, the violation of which has consequences.
The developers of the cheating software are not developing the software for the sole purpose of destroying Blizzard -- the developers make money.
That doesn't address the problem that was brought up. The sole purpose of the software is not "destroying Blizzard". The sole purpose is, however, a direct violation of WoW's EULA. There is nothing else this software is usable for. That it makes money for its developers is irrelevant.
What about satellite dish companies, or cable companies, or DSL? I paid for a product (cable box, satellite dish, DSL modem) and a service (cable, satellite TV, or an internet connection). If I cancel the service, the product is useless. Heck, the same can go for light bulbs if I don't want to pay my electric bill.
You may not like the arrangement, but I think "morally wrong" is pushing it.
We do not have a right to avoide inconvenience, but Blizzard has a vested interest in assuring that we are not. If we, in attempting to derive entertainment from their product, more often find ourselves encountering stress due to the actions of other players we are very likely to stop playing. This is not something Blizzard wants.
Blizzard may be overstepping the boundaries on this case, and if they are it should be shot down. However, I do support the ideal of preventing cheating.
Friends are very helpful in settings without strangers, but in an MMO that isn't possible.
While I agree that Blizzard is overstepping their bounds, I disagree that the existence of WoWGlider is purely due to the "grind". Partially perhaps, but I'd agrue that even were WoW in every way near-perfect and a work of art we would still have WoWGlider for the same reason there are services for upping your gamer score on Xbox Live.
There is a significant gamer population who only sees the end reward, and want it insantly. They don't enjoy actually playing the game, only the bragging rights. They, more than anyone else, are the ones using this tool. They want to be able to show off their high level characters because it isn't easy to get, while at the same time having an easy time of doing it.
I have some understanding the mentality of a botter, but I think it's rather silly.
So we have an adult who doesn't enjoy the primary gameplay of WoW. Grinding, questing, the very fabric of the game bores them. If this were a board game, a TV show, or a book they'd simply drop it and find something else to do. That's the reasonable thing to do, if your entertainment isn't entertaining be rid of it.
Instead, they invest more time and money in and cheat.
This analysis is obviously too logical, but from that standpoint I'll repeat that the whole thing is rather silly.
I think what he is getting at is the tendency for people to abhor what they are forced to do, or what they are forced to not do.
That the majority of kids seem fine and well adjusted isn't the issue at all. Despite not being alcoholics, alpha bullies, chronic gamblers, or excessively violent there are very few that do not consider or actively dabble in such things because of the forceful methods by which they are forbidden. It's not obvious, but the rules are still broken.
If you have the internet at home in China, chances are your parents are realtively wealthy. They might be willing to sign the account off under their name, effectively bypassing the "under 18" restriction.
I wonder if there are technical terms separate short and long term addictions.
People call MMORPGs an addiction because up until the point where you burn out they exhibit all the symptoms of it. Your social life does suffer, other games are left unplayed in favor of the MMO, chores are put off (well, this happens anyway) etc. The crucial difference, insightfully noted by you, is that instead of finding something harder or being perpetually enslaved there is a sudden burn out and the "addiction" ends.
I'd still qualify MMOs as addictive, but they aren't perpetual or ever increasing. I'd almost say that's their saving grace.
While it is true that the majority of 13375p43kers, beggars and ninjas are youth, there are numerous adults who do such things as well. Hence why many "adult" guilds have the qualifier "mature".
Having been intelligent and literate at 14, and having met people age 30 with the maturity of a toddler, I know there are exceptions on both sides. With the anonymity of the internet, it's best to judge someone by the content of their character and not by their supposed age.
I'd noticed that afterwards. I'd just assumed it was "Slashteria" where many idiots were spouting, or parroting, FUD. Then I read someone else's comment who noted the link between all the idiocy, zyl0x.
WoW players are literally paying Blizzard to work for them. At $15 a month, they are only working to increase the value of Blizzard's virtual property.
I discuss two of the issues: the taxation of loot "drops" and the taxation of exchanges within the game, such as the exchange of a virtual sword for gold. From a policy perspective, my view is that drops and purely in-game trades should not bear income tax.
Most people should have been able to pick up from the omitted opener to that sentence that she was discussing those two issues. Discussion is not the same as supporting a given subject.
If you were tired or drunk you might have missed that, so we have the very next sentence to let us know she's not an idiot. She very clearly, in other sections as well, states that she believes attempting to tax transactions that are purely in-game is unreasonable.
Unless you're playing WoW to make money, I don't know why so many people seem to be out to get this woman when she's basically defending us in our desire to play WoW-like MMORPGs without having to fill out a 13-37A Tax Form for our gains.
Just because she's talking about it doesn't mean she's supporting it. She discusses that as an issue, but as the GP says her arguement is simply for taxation upon the aquisition of real world income from virtual items.
BTW, I live in Texas, we don't have an income tax.
I just moved here for my first job. I did a merry jig when I realized the reason I hadn't received an income tax form from the state was because there was no income tax.
Soooooo much nicer only having to worry about federal.
Slashdot Mirror
*raises hand*
I enjoy the dirty work. I like finding ways to efficiently grind. I like seeing if I'm capable of clearing an area so fast I'm done before it all respawns. I like tooling around with different DPS cycles. I like ignoring efficient grinding methods for flare. I like needlessly jumping around when fighting otherwise stationary mobs. I like standing still. I like spending mindless hours killing things. I like the mental activity and planning required in PvP. I like thoughtfully helping other players without cost or charge. I like attacking cities and depriving people of quest NPCs. I like sticking with one character for an extended period of time and mastering them. I like branching off into hideous amounts of alts who never breach level 20. I like binge playing for hours. I like not playing for weeks on end. I like playing by myself. I like joining massive raids.
I don't like people who don't like the game, but somehow seem compelled to play it anyway. Bots or not, that seems silly.
Except in paying them for the service you agree to the terms of service, which in turn gives Blizzard the right to terminate service should the terms be violated.
Players do have the right to terminate their service with Blizzard and seek it elsewhere. However, Blizzard is the only one who offers WoW service. You have the right to choose, but you can either choose Blizzard or no service.
Multiple services would likely not deter jerks either. In fact, it would possibly only encourage them. "Company X does Y with WoW, why doesn't Blizzard?" If there was a service that allowed botting or other "jerkish" activities, there would inevitably be players moving to Blizzard's service and repeating these behaviors.
I'm going to argue some semantics here, but I find the quoted statement to be inaccurate.
If you play another MMO, you're still playing an MMO. It's the same activity. The specifics are different, but not the general action you are taking.
Lets say I can not run the Boston Marathon but run in a different marathon. I'm still running a marathon. They're different sporting events, but the same activity. The same goes for the WoW/EQ comparison.
That is true, but at the same time misleading. Going back to my marathon analogy, if I don't like the rules of the Boston Marathon I can't set up a marathon I call the "Boston Marathon", claim the same history as the original marathon, hold it the same day on the same course etc. etc.
I can make my own Marathon, call it the "Marathon of the Meandering Mind", have a different day and follow the same route, but it's not going to be the Boston Marathon. Similarly, you can make your own MMO that's very similar to WoW. It won't be WoW, and it'll be hard to make. However, that's your option outside of finding someone else's MMO/marathon.
It does, however, mean that the arguments are silly and the conclusion doesn't follow from them.
There are better ways to making these arguments, but they don't seem to be making an appearance today.
I remember trying PvP in a MUD, before I was systematically wiped out by a bot. The instant it entered the room I was under attack, and it instantly followed me when I ran like crazy. It then vendored all my stuff.
I stuck to regular characters and duels after that.
I'd mod you +Informative if I could, that's a great find.
1. Technically yes. However, in WoW's case agreeing to the EULA is agreeing not to. Exercising your right gives Blizzard a reason to exercise their right to stop their service.
2. Again, yes. But again, if what you do violates the EULA Blizzard has the right to stop their service.
3. I can't say I've ever thought about whether or not I own the data in my RAM. I'm inclined to think that I do, but at the same time (and like the other bullets thus far) I'm liable for the consequences of doing anything with that data which violates the EULA I agreed to.
4. I don't know enough about copyright to answer this. I suspect that this is what this case is meant to determine.
5. They do so long as it is in keeping with the contract or EULA dictating the terms of service. If there is none, then they have a right to do so at any time.
6. Yes and no. So long as the use of the code and software is not in violation of any actual law then they may. Although I would expect any reverse engineering attempts to draw Blizzard's lawyers out, and we'd see just to what extent we can mess around with the software we purchase.
If you ever work at a large corporation you'll have to think more deeply about this.
IANAL, but I've been subject to endless ethics classes, videos etc here at my "new hire" job. Very consistantly they remind us that we can get ourselves and our company in a lot of trouble by accepting EULAs irresponsibly. If I were to produce software on a tool with a statement in its EULA that forbade producing that kind of software, I could be responsible for a forced recall on an new product. Chances are I wouldn't keep my job.
At the very least EULAs are a contract, the violation of which has consequences.
That doesn't address the problem that was brought up. The sole purpose of the software is not "destroying Blizzard". The sole purpose is, however, a direct violation of WoW's EULA. There is nothing else this software is usable for. That it makes money for its developers is irrelevant.
Morally wrong?
What about satellite dish companies, or cable companies, or DSL? I paid for a product (cable box, satellite dish, DSL modem) and a service (cable, satellite TV, or an internet connection). If I cancel the service, the product is useless. Heck, the same can go for light bulbs if I don't want to pay my electric bill.
You may not like the arrangement, but I think "morally wrong" is pushing it.
We do not have a right to avoide inconvenience, but Blizzard has a vested interest in assuring that we are not. If we, in attempting to derive entertainment from their product, more often find ourselves encountering stress due to the actions of other players we are very likely to stop playing. This is not something Blizzard wants.
Blizzard may be overstepping the boundaries on this case, and if they are it should be shot down. However, I do support the ideal of preventing cheating.
Friends are very helpful in settings without strangers, but in an MMO that isn't possible.
While I agree that Blizzard is overstepping their bounds, I disagree that the existence of WoWGlider is purely due to the "grind". Partially perhaps, but I'd agrue that even were WoW in every way near-perfect and a work of art we would still have WoWGlider for the same reason there are services for upping your gamer score on Xbox Live.
There is a significant gamer population who only sees the end reward, and want it insantly. They don't enjoy actually playing the game, only the bragging rights. They, more than anyone else, are the ones using this tool. They want to be able to show off their high level characters because it isn't easy to get, while at the same time having an easy time of doing it.
I have some understanding the mentality of a botter, but I think it's rather silly.
So we have an adult who doesn't enjoy the primary gameplay of WoW. Grinding, questing, the very fabric of the game bores them. If this were a board game, a TV show, or a book they'd simply drop it and find something else to do. That's the reasonable thing to do, if your entertainment isn't entertaining be rid of it.
Instead, they invest more time and money in and cheat.
This analysis is obviously too logical, but from that standpoint I'll repeat that the whole thing is rather silly.
I think what he is getting at is the tendency for people to abhor what they are forced to do, or what they are forced to not do.
That the majority of kids seem fine and well adjusted isn't the issue at all. Despite not being alcoholics, alpha bullies, chronic gamblers, or excessively violent there are very few that do not consider or actively dabble in such things because of the forceful methods by which they are forbidden. It's not obvious, but the rules are still broken.
If you have the internet at home in China, chances are your parents are realtively wealthy. They might be willing to sign the account off under their name, effectively bypassing the "under 18" restriction.
I wonder if there are technical terms separate short and long term addictions.
People call MMORPGs an addiction because up until the point where you burn out they exhibit all the symptoms of it. Your social life does suffer, other games are left unplayed in favor of the MMO, chores are put off (well, this happens anyway) etc. The crucial difference, insightfully noted by you, is that instead of finding something harder or being perpetually enslaved there is a sudden burn out and the "addiction" ends.
I'd still qualify MMOs as addictive, but they aren't perpetual or ever increasing. I'd almost say that's their saving grace.
But the latter image is more humorous! Although it's one of those "I can't believe I'm laughing at something to horrible" cases.
While it is true that the majority of 13375p43kers, beggars and ninjas are youth, there are numerous adults who do such things as well. Hence why many "adult" guilds have the qualifier "mature".
Having been intelligent and literate at 14, and having met people age 30 with the maturity of a toddler, I know there are exceptions on both sides. With the anonymity of the internet, it's best to judge someone by the content of their character and not by their supposed age.
I'd noticed that afterwards. I'd just assumed it was "Slashteria" where many idiots were spouting, or parroting, FUD. Then I read someone else's comment who noted the link between all the idiocy, zyl0x.
Meh, I need Karma like I need days spent on WoW.
[2. Immigration - United States] LFG Canadian Border. Need single Canadians.
Can someone expand on this? It'd be nice for more detail or confirmation of the veracity of the statement.
That's an interesting point.
WoW players are literally paying Blizzard to work for them. At $15 a month, they are only working to increase the value of Blizzard's virtual property.
I find that way of looking at it intriguing.
From the Article (Context in bold):
Most people should have been able to pick up from the omitted opener to that sentence that she was discussing those two issues. Discussion is not the same as supporting a given subject.
If you were tired or drunk you might have missed that, so we have the very next sentence to let us know she's not an idiot. She very clearly, in other sections as well, states that she believes attempting to tax transactions that are purely in-game is unreasonable.
Unless you're playing WoW to make money, I don't know why so many people seem to be out to get this woman when she's basically defending us in our desire to play WoW-like MMORPGs without having to fill out a 13-37A Tax Form for our gains.
Just because she's talking about it doesn't mean she's supporting it. She discusses that as an issue, but as the GP says her arguement is simply for taxation upon the aquisition of real world income from virtual items.
I just moved here for my first job. I did a merry jig when I realized the reason I hadn't received an income tax form from the state was because there was no income tax.
Soooooo much nicer only having to worry about federal.
But it would have to be one phone for every passenger, simultaneously, taking into account that the cell phone towers would be below the plane...