When one declares himself to be a KOffice developer and then proceeds to throw around insults and blatant vulgarity, he is acting as a representative of the KOffice project, whether he likes it or not. His actions will affect the image of the project. And when you consider that KOffice is involved with the KDE Project, any terrible public image portrayed by a KOffice developer rubs off on all of the KDE developers, unfortunately.
Now, I know that the vast majority of KDE developers are good, respectable people. It's the ones who go out of their way to make misleading statements regarding the project or publically insult KDE users who tarnish the reputation of the whole group. One or two negative people hold far more weight than hundreds of good people.
Please refrain from resorting to petty insults when you're presented with arguments (such as mine) that you cannot counter with reasonable, frank discussion.
1) You're taking a far too simple-minded view of porting kdelibs to Windows. But that's reasonable, considering your unfamiliarity with kdelibs. So I'll forgive you. kdelibs is highly tied to the POSIX environment that isn't suitably replicated under Windows, unless you delve into something like Cygwin (which isn't exactly user-friendly, let me tell you from experience).
2) No, I developed for QT and found it quite easy. It's a fantastic toolkit to develop with. The problem isn't so much with QT, it is with kdelibs and its dependence not on X11, but on POSIX-like functionality which is not readily available under Windows.
3) In a letter denouncing a competitor for making misleading statements, it is best to not make potentially misleading statements yourself.
4) I have provided arguments that are backed by proof and experience. Yet the only arguments presented against me have been in the form of insults. That is because my points are so rock solid that they cannot be countered by any other means.
Indeed, it really is quite obvious. I mean, look at the recent and ongoing Iraq war. 95% of the European, Canadian, Australian, etc., citizens saw it for the sham that it was, even if their respective governments did not (or chose not to).
It seems that the only people who were tricked into supporting it were the moronic rednecks and the most right-wing extremists in non-American countries. Otherwise, basically everyone saw it as it really was. And this was with a mainstream media that does not actually investigate such matters.
Time and time again "national security" is shown to be the antithesis of freedom. Be it in China or the United States, putting such a focus on protecting "national security" results in severe harm to the liberties and life of the nation's citizenry.
There are two separate issues here. One is the letter to the Microsoft official, which clearly contains statements that could be construed as misleading or potentially unreasonable.
Then there is the KDE developer who posted the insults earlier in this thread, damaging the reputation and public image of the KDE Project.
I realize that he may have had a bad day, and I do accept his apology. But it is still completely inappropriate to insult the users of your product in such a way. I'd expect that from Microsoft or IBM, but not from KDE or KOffice.
1) Neither a headache nor a lack of a solid argument is a good reason for him to publically display behavior which tarnishes the reputation and image of the KOffice and KDE projects.
2) While not a KDE developer, I did develop software professionally (you know, where we don't insult our users) using QT for many years. I have a very good understanding of how long software developed using QT takes to develop. In this case I feel a misleading statement has been made, and frankly I think the open source community should be above making statements like that.
3) This wasn't a product announcement. This was a letter to a Microsoft representative chiding him about making misleading statements. It was wrong for the KDE representative to turn around and make statements that were just as misleading. Besides being hypocritical, it gives groups like Microsoft and example of misleading statements to use against the open source community in the future.
4) The only people embarrassed about this situation are the innocent KDE developers who do not go around insulting the users of their software, yet have their reputation damaged severely by a rogue developer who throws out insult after insult in public.
You?... you know shit, but feel comfortable talking out your ass on something you know nothing of.
and
Typical... Slashdot... IDIOT.
Now, it looks extremely bad on the KDE community, and especially KOffice, when they have rogue developers going around insulting long-time KDE users such as myself. That is not how the open-source community works. Now, I know he's a rogue element within the KDE community, and not representative of them as a whole.
As a long-time KDE user, I only want the best for the KDE project and the open source community. I feel it is completely wrong to make even "likely" claims that cannot be fulfilled with 100% certainty. It is even worse to make such potentially misleading statements in a letter denouncing a competitor for being misleading.
Announce the port to Windows once it is complete and functioning. I'm sure it's more than possible to do, especially considering the GPL'ed QT 4 release. But to make such claims before serious work has even started is just looking for trouble. And it's even worse to set a definite time frame of completion that is "within a year".
I hope you realize that your post is a fairly awful example of how to treat your users, correct? Insulting them repeatedly is hardly a way to encourage them to use your product, even if it is open source. I hope you see how terribly your response reflects on the rest of the KOffice development team, and on the entire KDE project.
I'm not sure if you're an American or not, but if you are, what are you planning to do about this? I mean, at least you're aware of this situation now. That's probably a step ahead of most Americans. But are there any Americans who are actually willing to do something serious about this? And by "serious" I mean not just posting messages of displeasure on various Internet forums or blogs.
Indeed, this further shows how anti-conservative the Republican Party has become. True conservatives would never support legislation that intrudes so terribly into the lives of innocent citizens. It's against the very ideals that a real conservative holds.
The safest way to avoid BSE is to stop eating beef. If you want protein, eat some beans instead. There's no need to get nanotech involved. It just takes some self control.
Even if they can defend themselves using such wordplay, the fact remains that they were wrong. And being wrong like that in public can have a devastating effect on their image. That's what truly sows the seeds of doubt, even without the involvement of Microsoft in any way. Will people in the future be able to depend on the claims coming out of the KOffice project? Perhaps, but also perhaps not.
Considering the economic effects of medical developments has nothing to do with "conspiracy theories" or nonsense like that. Face it, there are big players in the pharmamedical industry. Lots of money is involved. Vast amounts. And remember, to be successful in business you often have to fuck people over. And in this case it may mean fucking over the sick in order to make a profit.
If a patient comes in to the doctor with a mild illness that will be taken care of naturally within a few days, the doctor should quickly send the patient home. Don't prescribe antibiotics or crap like that. Just send them home to bed. Like in the old, pre-pharma days.
Perhaps this technology could be used to screen semen samples for genetic abnormalities. Such screening could be very beneficial at sperm banks which want to guarantee the quality of the sperm they are offering to recipients.
This was the wrong time and situation to express such "hope". It could very well be taken to be a misleading statement. And in this situation, it could very well provide Microsoft and others with material to use against the open source movement as a whole.
I can see it now: "In September of 2005 it was claimed by KOffice representatives that their product would likely be running on Windows within a year. It is now March of 2007, and there is still no functional port available. The open source community makes misleading statements regarding the future plans of their products."
It could be as simple as that, unfortunately. It's best not to give them such fuel in the first place.
It's still a claim about the future capabilities of an open source project. When one is writing a letter pointing out the misleading statements of a competitor, it is best not to make claims that may be just as misleading.
Yes, but in the world of software one would also expect such a "comprehensive" suite to consist of numerous programs that actually work. Like I said, the KWord program works well. KCalc is okay. I've run into numerous problems with Kugar and Kivio and Karbon 14. Yes, they're there in some form, but they're not always usable. And I don't think it's responsible for the KOffice project to go around claiming they're the "most comprehensive" office suite if only a small portion of the programs in their suite are comparable to the competing programs.
How can they be sure that this technology itself isn't carcinogenic? I mean, have tests been performed to see if these silicon nanowires in turn can damage the DNA of cells they encounter?
The fact remains that word processors are remarkably fast efficient and easy to use and entirely suitable for the majority of users.
Except for the fact that they aren't. They suffer from problems with the format the documents are saved in, as this whole debacle here shows. And word processors are pretty fucking useless when you can't even expect to be able to give a saved file to another user and have them open it without problem. At least LaTeX gets around this problem by using a plain text format.
He's speaking on behalf of the KOffice team. He is not speaking on behalf of Sun, OOo, AbiWord, or any other such project. So of course what he says will focus on KOffice.
One shouldn't expect SGI officials to make press statements on behalf of Microsoft, IBM or HP. The same applies here.
I come from an era where a product suite was not considered "comprehensive" just because it had some (possibly non-functioning) portion of code written for a large number of smaller, unoriginal programs. The programs each have to work, at least to the point of being equivalent in functionality to competing products, in order for the suite to be considered "comprehensive". While KOffice is getting there, I wouldn't go around and publically label it as "the most comprehensive" suite just because it has the basic window frames for the various programs implemented.
It would have been better for him to say that they were working on adding Windows and Mac OS X support. But to suggest a limit of "within a year" is almost moronic. Now it forces them into that schedule, even if it isn't viable. And since this letter was accusing others of making misleading statements, it would be horrendous for the KOffice project's image if they themselves become guilty of making such misleading statements.
Slashdot Mirror
When one declares himself to be a KOffice developer and then proceeds to throw around insults and blatant vulgarity, he is acting as a representative of the KOffice project, whether he likes it or not. His actions will affect the image of the project. And when you consider that KOffice is involved with the KDE Project, any terrible public image portrayed by a KOffice developer rubs off on all of the KDE developers, unfortunately.
Now, I know that the vast majority of KDE developers are good, respectable people. It's the ones who go out of their way to make misleading statements regarding the project or publically insult KDE users who tarnish the reputation of the whole group. One or two negative people hold far more weight than hundreds of good people.
Again, what does OSNews.com have to do with this?
Please refrain from resorting to petty insults when you're presented with arguments (such as mine) that you cannot counter with reasonable, frank discussion.
1) You're taking a far too simple-minded view of porting kdelibs to Windows. But that's reasonable, considering your unfamiliarity with kdelibs. So I'll forgive you. kdelibs is highly tied to the POSIX environment that isn't suitably replicated under Windows, unless you delve into something like Cygwin (which isn't exactly user-friendly, let me tell you from experience).
2) No, I developed for QT and found it quite easy. It's a fantastic toolkit to develop with. The problem isn't so much with QT, it is with kdelibs and its dependence not on X11, but on POSIX-like functionality which is not readily available under Windows.
3) In a letter denouncing a competitor for making misleading statements, it is best to not make potentially misleading statements yourself.
4) I have provided arguments that are backed by proof and experience. Yet the only arguments presented against me have been in the form of insults. That is because my points are so rock solid that they cannot be countered by any other means.
Indeed, it really is quite obvious. I mean, look at the recent and ongoing Iraq war. 95% of the European, Canadian, Australian, etc., citizens saw it for the sham that it was, even if their respective governments did not (or chose not to).
It seems that the only people who were tricked into supporting it were the moronic rednecks and the most right-wing extremists in non-American countries. Otherwise, basically everyone saw it as it really was. And this was with a mainstream media that does not actually investigate such matters.
Time and time again "national security" is shown to be the antithesis of freedom. Be it in China or the United States, putting such a focus on protecting "national security" results in severe harm to the liberties and life of the nation's citizenry.
There are two separate issues here. One is the letter to the Microsoft official, which clearly contains statements that could be construed as misleading or potentially unreasonable.
Then there is the KDE developer who posted the insults earlier in this thread, damaging the reputation and public image of the KDE Project.
I realize that he may have had a bad day, and I do accept his apology. But it is still completely inappropriate to insult the users of your product in such a way. I'd expect that from Microsoft or IBM, but not from KDE or KOffice.
1) Neither a headache nor a lack of a solid argument is a good reason for him to publically display behavior which tarnishes the reputation and image of the KOffice and KDE projects.
2) While not a KDE developer, I did develop software professionally (you know, where we don't insult our users) using QT for many years. I have a very good understanding of how long software developed using QT takes to develop. In this case I feel a misleading statement has been made, and frankly I think the open source community should be above making statements like that.
3) This wasn't a product announcement. This was a letter to a Microsoft representative chiding him about making misleading statements. It was wrong for the KDE representative to turn around and make statements that were just as misleading. Besides being hypocritical, it gives groups like Microsoft and example of misleading statements to use against the open source community in the future.
4) The only people embarrassed about this situation are the innocent KDE developers who do not go around insulting the users of their software, yet have their reputation damaged severely by a rogue developer who throws out insult after insult in public.
Let's be clear here. The problem with manyoso's statements are that they were childish insults.
T opics-About-Which-He-Knows-Nothing
... you know shit, but feel comfortable talking out your ass on something you know nothing of.
Statements like:
Dear He-Who-Blathers-Inanely-On-And-On-Out-His-Ass-On-
and
You?
and
Typical... Slashdot... IDIOT.
Now, it looks extremely bad on the KDE community, and especially KOffice, when they have rogue developers going around insulting long-time KDE users such as myself. That is not how the open-source community works. Now, I know he's a rogue element within the KDE community, and not representative of them as a whole.
And what does OSNews.com have to do with this?
I accept your apology.
As a long-time KDE user, I only want the best for the KDE project and the open source community. I feel it is completely wrong to make even "likely" claims that cannot be fulfilled with 100% certainty. It is even worse to make such potentially misleading statements in a letter denouncing a competitor for being misleading.
Announce the port to Windows once it is complete and functioning. I'm sure it's more than possible to do, especially considering the GPL'ed QT 4 release. But to make such claims before serious work has even started is just looking for trouble. And it's even worse to set a definite time frame of completion that is "within a year".
I hope you realize that your post is a fairly awful example of how to treat your users, correct? Insulting them repeatedly is hardly a way to encourage them to use your product, even if it is open source. I hope you see how terribly your response reflects on the rest of the KOffice development team, and on the entire KDE project.
I'm not sure if you're an American or not, but if you are, what are you planning to do about this? I mean, at least you're aware of this situation now. That's probably a step ahead of most Americans. But are there any Americans who are actually willing to do something serious about this? And by "serious" I mean not just posting messages of displeasure on various Internet forums or blogs.
Indeed, this further shows how anti-conservative the Republican Party has become. True conservatives would never support legislation that intrudes so terribly into the lives of innocent citizens. It's against the very ideals that a real conservative holds.
The safest way to avoid BSE is to stop eating beef. If you want protein, eat some beans instead. There's no need to get nanotech involved. It just takes some self control.
Even if they can defend themselves using such wordplay, the fact remains that they were wrong. And being wrong like that in public can have a devastating effect on their image. That's what truly sows the seeds of doubt, even without the involvement of Microsoft in any way. Will people in the future be able to depend on the claims coming out of the KOffice project? Perhaps, but also perhaps not.
Considering the economic effects of medical developments has nothing to do with "conspiracy theories" or nonsense like that. Face it, there are big players in the pharmamedical industry. Lots of money is involved. Vast amounts. And remember, to be successful in business you often have to fuck people over. And in this case it may mean fucking over the sick in order to make a profit.
If a patient comes in to the doctor with a mild illness that will be taken care of naturally within a few days, the doctor should quickly send the patient home. Don't prescribe antibiotics or crap like that. Just send them home to bed. Like in the old, pre-pharma days.
I did not know. Why did you choose to leave them?
Perhaps this technology could be used to screen semen samples for genetic abnormalities. Such screening could be very beneficial at sperm banks which want to guarantee the quality of the sperm they are offering to recipients.
This was the wrong time and situation to express such "hope". It could very well be taken to be a misleading statement. And in this situation, it could very well provide Microsoft and others with material to use against the open source movement as a whole.
I can see it now:
"In September of 2005 it was claimed by KOffice representatives that their product would likely be running on Windows within a year. It is now March of 2007, and there is still no functional port available. The open source community makes misleading statements regarding the future plans of their products."
It could be as simple as that, unfortunately. It's best not to give them such fuel in the first place.
It's still a claim about the future capabilities of an open source project. When one is writing a letter pointing out the misleading statements of a competitor, it is best not to make claims that may be just as misleading.
It's a good thing you read the article, Mr. John C. Randolph. Because I sure as hell didn't. That's why you work for Apple, and I'm retired.
Yes, but in the world of software one would also expect such a "comprehensive" suite to consist of numerous programs that actually work. Like I said, the KWord program works well. KCalc is okay. I've run into numerous problems with Kugar and Kivio and Karbon 14. Yes, they're there in some form, but they're not always usable. And I don't think it's responsible for the KOffice project to go around claiming they're the "most comprehensive" office suite if only a small portion of the programs in their suite are comparable to the competing programs.
How can they be sure that this technology itself isn't carcinogenic? I mean, have tests been performed to see if these silicon nanowires in turn can damage the DNA of cells they encounter?
The fact remains that word processors are remarkably fast efficient and easy to use and entirely suitable for the majority of users.
Except for the fact that they aren't. They suffer from problems with the format the documents are saved in, as this whole debacle here shows. And word processors are pretty fucking useless when you can't even expect to be able to give a saved file to another user and have them open it without problem. At least LaTeX gets around this problem by using a plain text format.
He's speaking on behalf of the KOffice team. He is not speaking on behalf of Sun, OOo, AbiWord, or any other such project. So of course what he says will focus on KOffice.
One shouldn't expect SGI officials to make press statements on behalf of Microsoft, IBM or HP. The same applies here.
I come from an era where a product suite was not considered "comprehensive" just because it had some (possibly non-functioning) portion of code written for a large number of smaller, unoriginal programs. The programs each have to work, at least to the point of being equivalent in functionality to competing products, in order for the suite to be considered "comprehensive". While KOffice is getting there, I wouldn't go around and publically label it as "the most comprehensive" suite just because it has the basic window frames for the various programs implemented.
It would have been better for him to say that they were working on adding Windows and Mac OS X support. But to suggest a limit of "within a year" is almost moronic. Now it forces them into that schedule, even if it isn't viable. And since this letter was accusing others of making misleading statements, it would be horrendous for the KOffice project's image if they themselves become guilty of making such misleading statements.