Considering you left out a lot of information about your particular problem I don't consider their response as ridiculous as you do. I've never had any issues with Oracle's DB tech support. In fact they've saved my ass a few times. Very well trained people unlike some of the people in their other divisions (or other companies for that matter). Oracle DB tech support is by far the finest I've ever dealt with.
Re:The problem with web development in java
on
Struts Kick Start
·
· Score: 2
I see you have never used Java and have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Java is not slow. It is not slow on the server. It is not slow on the client. JSP/Servlets/EJB with or without Struts, etc are as productive as PHP,.NET and Perl. There are tons of options out there for doing web-based development in Java.
Enhydra is an app server. they have supporting APIs to create web apps (XMLC for one...I think Resin might support it as well). Resin is a jsp/servlet engine. There is an addon for EJB. tomcat and jetty are also jsp/servlet engines. Struts is an API for doing JSP/servlet development. It uses jsp/servlets. JBoss is an EJB container. It would work in conjuction with jetty/tomcat/resin. Lots of the apache jakarta projects work with each other. That makes them somewhat confusing at times but it really is pretty cool.
Memorization is very useful in certain thinngs and certainly not useful in others. It is not useful to memorize something like the Java math API. Certainly by using it often enough you do memorize it. Then again once you haven't used it for awhile you most likely forget it. I'd rather have the reference available then worry about spending time memorizing it (not to mention I'm horrible at memorizing things).
However MVC allows the model to interact with the view
By allowing the model and view to interact you've broken the whole reason for using MVC in the first place. You don't want coupling between the model and the view and that coupling is the point for using MVC.
US diesel cars around that time were notorius for having all sorts of problems. Its why diesels dont sell well here anymore (VW is the only remaining company selling diesel cars).
Now, my opinion of Firefly can be easily challenged being that I admitted right away I only watched the first two episodes.
IMHO thats part of the problem. The first episode of Firefly was pretty lame. Second episode was better but it got much better after those. I almost didn't watch it again after the first show.
Yeah....using HotSpot server instead actually was passed along from a friend who had a presentation at his work from some of the HotSpot engineers so I consider it first-hand. Too bad HotSpot server doesnt ship with the JRE:/
Incidentally IBM has pretty much always had a great VM as well....dont think its available on Solaris tho;) Certainly works well on Linux and Windows.
I dont think any of the companies that do native compilers for Java offer trial versions which sucks and they're not cheap either. There are at least 4 companies and each product is better suited to certain types of applications (some server-side...some client, etc).
No one can claim that a program written in Java is as fast as a program written in vanilla c.
Until one comes up with a meaningful version of each version coded properly to use the strengths of the language in question you can't say that. Server-side Java is extremely fast and you gain far more coding in Java on the server than you'd lose in speed.
c. For that matter, when real execution speed is required, people still optimise in assembler (or even design custom hardware).
Uh...whatever. People who worry about that type of optimization wouldn't be looking at much more than C or C++. Java and the like aren't even on their radar.
Java is not designed for execution speed. No point in pretending it is. Nobody ever claimed it was.
Java is slower than c. First off its C....not c. Secondly you can't make that claim. It certainly is true in some respects and not so in others. Making that claim is pretty much pointless.
As to 2 I don't know of any Java application that I've used yet that takes 40MB of memory on load. I agree though that you do lose the gains made on loading/compiling to native. Sun needs to address that issue. OTOH you can also buy native compilers that do the work upfront. If you want a fast GUI use SWT. Not as functional as Swing imho but certainly faster.
I'll give you 1 but will say that even with Hotspot Java is not an interpreted language. Hotspot does compilation of those sections of code that need it the most but once that happens the classes become a hybrid of native/bytecode. Java was an interpreted language when it first came out. It is no longer.
Incidentally I've read several things that talk about the fact that Hotspot server version is the one everyone should be using....even if on the client. Client is only designed for short-lived things like applets.
Yes...it takes time the first time through the code. Big whup. There is definitely a trade-off when using Java but then again nobody ever said that Java had to be used for every project. Someone else posted about how slow Java is even scrolling. They're full of crap. The machine I'm currently using is a P3-500 with 256mb of RAM which is not by any means a speed demon and I use JEdit exclusively for coding. Scrolling is not slow. It would seem that most people saying that Java is slow probably haven't actually used Java in years.
You should duck from the Java purist flames because you and the poster you're replying to are wrong. Java hasn't been interpreted for years. All Java virtual machines use some sort of JIT mechanism to compile the code before its run.
Two things: the spiders leaving in a line is supposed to get their attention. I've never seen spiders follow each other in a line before;) Also the line of spiders allows Harry and Ron to follow them into the forest.
Visa has the right because they established the rule and the business signed a contract. If the business didn't like the rules they shouldn't have signed the contract.
O.K. I think I get the point you are trying to make, though XML and.NET are every bit as much technologies as Java and SQL, just new and thus "sexy", and prone to buzzword mining in resumes.
That designer was smoking crack then. Especially on v3 of Fireworks they made it *very* similar to Photoshop (so much so they got sued). Similar layout, menus, etc. That designer was just some doofus;)
Of course what is even more amusing is that Photoshop is not the only, nor necessarily best, tool for web graphics. I think Fireworks is a far better tool for web work than Photoshop (or ImageReady) though its far from free;)
First off: nothing is impossible. The problem with Java (or VB, or PowerBuilder, or Delphi, or any other of the myriad of languages out there) is that they are all based on something else and the people who are creating/updating them might make mistakes. If you happen to run into one of those mistakes you have to code around it and then what happens when the particular bug that bit you is fixed? Will your code still work properly? A Java programmer I know was just bitten by a bug in one of the methods Java provides for creating URLs. This bug has been in existance for 2 *years* and it still hasn't been fixed. Java is full of crap like that so don't ever assume that anything is impossible in Java.
So, I'll still rank Java in the buzzword camp. The language matters far less than the overall architecture and really just represents a means to an end.I agree that its a means to an end but Java is 7 years old. Hardly a buzzword.
Could the same argument be made about C++, or other OO languages, like Smalltalk? Perhaps, but, unlike Java, they are richer in terms of the native OO concepts they support: multiple inheritance for one. Java scales back on a lot of these things (simply parsing C++ is, admitedly, a bitch), and adds more practical facilities (garbage collection and native multithreading) useful in a particular set of applications.
Smalltalk is a single-inheritance language and you'd be hard-pressed to find situations where MI adds anything significant to a language that can't be expressed with single-inheritance and something like interfaces. And Java just borrows on other languages (like Smalltalk) for things like garbage collection, etc. There was a nice marketing job done for Java and it was cheap for developers to adopt (and still is). Smalltalk didn't have that luxury unfortunately. It does now but its pretty much too late.
As for XML, and.NET, so what?
I think you're missing the point of my reply. You said 'buzzwords' and SQL and Java aren't buzzwords. XML and.NET are buzzwords (ie: currently in vogue and "cool").
a scripting language that is responsible for running lots of important financial systems. People always rag on dynamic binding/typing in Smalltalk and they always come up with the same lame reasons why it sucks.
The development style of Smalltalk is completely different than the development style of a compiled language like C/C++ (or Java for that matter) and that has to be taken into account when talking about bugs, etc.
Fact is that Smalltalk is very easy to develop solid code in and people have done so for years.
Just a nitpick here but SQL is hardly a buzzword. Its been around forever. Java is way past the buzzword stage as well. You want buzzwords you got XML and you missed.NET.
If Sun sued MS over MS trying to improve the speed of Java (yes, I know there were some other issues involved, but MS JVM was definitely faster than other things out at the time)
The Sun lawsuit had absolutely *nothing* to do with MS trying to improve the speed of Java and *everything* to do with the "other issues" you mention. Sun sued Microsoft because Microsoft broke the license agreement by making illegal changes to the language. Very simple.
Slashdot Mirror
Actually autoboxing isnt a new term. Its also used widely in discussion on C# which does the same thing.
Considering you left out a lot of information about your particular problem I don't consider their response as ridiculous as you do. I've never had any issues with Oracle's DB tech support. In fact they've saved my ass a few times. Very well trained people unlike some of the people in their other divisions (or other companies for that matter). Oracle DB tech support is by far the finest I've ever dealt with.
I see you have never used Java and have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Java is not slow. It is not slow on the server. It is not slow on the client. JSP/Servlets/EJB with or without Struts, etc are as productive as PHP, .NET and Perl. There are tons of options out there for doing web-based development in Java.
Enhydra is an app server. they have supporting APIs to create web apps (XMLC for one...I think Resin might support it as well). Resin is a jsp/servlet engine. There is an addon for EJB. tomcat and jetty are also jsp/servlet engines. Struts is an API for doing JSP/servlet development. It uses jsp/servlets. JBoss is an EJB container. It would work in conjuction with jetty/tomcat/resin. Lots of the apache jakarta projects work with each other. That makes them somewhat confusing at times but it really is pretty cool.
Memorization is very useful in certain thinngs and certainly not useful in others. It is not useful to memorize something like the Java math API. Certainly by using it often enough you do memorize it. Then again once you haven't used it for awhile you most likely forget it. I'd rather have the reference available then worry about spending time memorizing it (not to mention I'm horrible at memorizing things).
By allowing the model and view to interact you've broken the whole reason for using MVC in the first place. You don't want coupling between the model and the view and that coupling is the point for using MVC.
US diesel cars around that time were notorius for having all sorts of problems. Its why diesels dont sell well here anymore (VW is the only remaining company selling diesel cars).
IMHO thats part of the problem. The first episode of Firefly was pretty lame. Second episode was better but it got much better after those. I almost didn't watch it again after the first show.
Incidentally IBM has pretty much always had a great VM as well....dont think its available on Solaris tho ;) Certainly works well on Linux and Windows.
I dont think any of the companies that do native compilers for Java offer trial versions which sucks and they're not cheap either. There are at least 4 companies and each product is better suited to certain types of applications (some server-side...some client, etc).
Until one comes up with a meaningful version of each version coded properly to use the strengths of the language in question you can't say that. Server-side Java is extremely fast and you gain far more coding in Java on the server than you'd lose in speed.
c. For that matter, when real execution speed is required, people still optimise in assembler (or even design custom hardware).
Uh...whatever. People who worry about that type of optimization wouldn't be looking at much more than C or C++. Java and the like aren't even on their radar.
Java is not designed for execution speed. No point in pretending it is. Nobody ever claimed it was.
Java is slower than c. First off its C....not c. Secondly you can't make that claim. It certainly is true in some respects and not so in others. Making that claim is pretty much pointless.
As to 2 I don't know of any Java application that I've used yet that takes 40MB of memory on load. I agree though that you do lose the gains made on loading/compiling to native. Sun needs to address that issue. OTOH you can also buy native compilers that do the work upfront. If you want a fast GUI use SWT. Not as functional as Swing imho but certainly faster.
Incidentally I've read several things that talk about the fact that Hotspot server version is the one everyone should be using....even if on the client. Client is only designed for short-lived things like applets.
Yes...it takes time the first time through the code. Big whup. There is definitely a trade-off when using Java but then again nobody ever said that Java had to be used for every project. Someone else posted about how slow Java is even scrolling. They're full of crap. The machine I'm currently using is a P3-500 with 256mb of RAM which is not by any means a speed demon and I use JEdit exclusively for coding. Scrolling is not slow. It would seem that most people saying that Java is slow probably haven't actually used Java in years.
You should duck from the Java purist flames because you and the poster you're replying to are wrong. Java hasn't been interpreted for years. All Java virtual machines use some sort of JIT mechanism to compile the code before its run.
Two things: the spiders leaving in a line is supposed to get their attention. I've never seen spiders follow each other in a line before ;) Also the line of spiders allows Harry and Ron to follow them into the forest.
Visa has the right because they established the rule and the business signed a contract. If the business didn't like the rules they shouldn't have signed the contract.
Yeah. Now we're on the same page.
That designer was smoking crack then. Especially on v3 of Fireworks they made it *very* similar to Photoshop (so much so they got sued). Similar layout, menus, etc. That designer was just some doofus ;)
Of course what is even more amusing is that Photoshop is not the only, nor necessarily best, tool for web graphics. I think Fireworks is a far better tool for web work than Photoshop (or ImageReady) though its far from free ;)
First off: nothing is impossible. The problem with Java (or VB, or PowerBuilder, or Delphi, or any other of the myriad of languages out there) is that they are all based on something else and the people who are creating/updating them might make mistakes. If you happen to run into one of those mistakes you have to code around it and then what happens when the particular bug that bit you is fixed? Will your code still work properly? A Java programmer I know was just bitten by a bug in one of the methods Java provides for creating URLs. This bug has been in existance for 2 *years* and it still hasn't been fixed. Java is full of crap like that so don't ever assume that anything is impossible in Java.
Could the same argument be made about C++, or other OO languages, like Smalltalk? Perhaps, but, unlike Java, they are richer in terms of the native OO concepts they support: multiple inheritance for one. Java scales back on a lot of these things (simply parsing C++ is, admitedly, a bitch), and adds more practical facilities (garbage collection and native multithreading) useful in a particular set of applications.
Smalltalk is a single-inheritance language and you'd be hard-pressed to find situations where MI adds anything significant to a language that can't be expressed with single-inheritance and something like interfaces. And Java just borrows on other languages (like Smalltalk) for things like garbage collection, etc. There was a nice marketing job done for Java and it was cheap for developers to adopt (and still is). Smalltalk didn't have that luxury unfortunately. It does now but its pretty much too late.
As for XML, and .NET, so what?
I think you're missing the point of my reply. You said 'buzzwords' and SQL and Java aren't buzzwords. XML and .NET are buzzwords (ie: currently in vogue and "cool").
a scripting language that is responsible for running lots of important financial systems. People always rag on dynamic binding/typing in Smalltalk and they always come up with the same lame reasons why it sucks.
The development style of Smalltalk is completely different than the development style of a compiled language like C/C++ (or Java for that matter) and that has to be taken into account when talking about bugs, etc.
Fact is that Smalltalk is very easy to develop solid code in and people have done so for years.
Just a nitpick here but SQL is hardly a buzzword. Its been around forever. Java is way past the buzzword stage as well. You want buzzwords you got XML and you missed .NET.
There already is a good, fast java gui toolkit that is x-platform. Its from the Eclipse project (read: IBM) and its called SWT.
The Sun lawsuit had absolutely *nothing* to do with MS trying to improve the speed of Java and *everything* to do with the "other issues" you mention. Sun sued Microsoft because Microsoft broke the license agreement by making illegal changes to the language. Very simple.