A nation is its people. If you want to eliminate a nation, then you are asking for genocide. You are indeed "pro-genocide" if you are defending another's call to eliminate a nation.
". I'm sure they would prefer to do their genocide in private without the world watching but
with the internet."
You have it backwards. You blame the victims of genocide, and actually have the gall to call them the perpetrators of it. It's pretty clear when you look at two competiting entities (one wants to exterminate the other, and the other entity accepts the right of the other one to exist) which one is engaging in genocide.
"By way of example, you seem to hold some grudge against the Muslim people"
No, I do not. I however reject oppressive theocracy, and believe in tolerance for different faiths (or lack of faith).
"which is rather strange given that a) the only time the Jewish people have enjoyed protection and prosperity under a non-Jewish, non-secular government was under the Ottoman government"
Did you know that under the Ottomans, the Jews were forced to follow Muslim laws and submit to Muslim authorities? Did you know that they also had to pay a special tax just for not being Muslim?.
"and b) persecution of Jewish people has long been at the hands of Europeans and Christians."
That is only complete when you mention "...and Muslims" at the end.
The Arab world reacted to a huge influx of Jewish migrants in the 30s and 40s, as well as the creation of a Jewish state in the middle of Arabia, where it had no logical reason to be.
That was the most logical place for it to be. However, it was not in Arabia. Arabia is to the southeast of the area.
It was in the Eastern Mediterranean area. You also didn't mention that Jews fled persecution in nearby Muslim countries in order to move to Israel. To some degree, they were forced out.
"The Arabs owed nothing to the Jewish people for the holocaust, why make them pay?"
"Given the support the US gives to Israel, why not just make Israel in the US? That'd put an end to the Middle East dilema pretty quickly."
...and it would satisfy the demands of those who want to get rid of Middle Eastern Jews once and for all.
"Incidentally, you did not "blow my argument out of the water", you simply played the all-too-familiar "Jews are victims therefore need special treatment""
Actually, I don't think they deserve special treatment. They deserve equal treatment. If we can have a Palestine for the Palestinians, a Syria for the Syrians, a Jordan for the Hashemites, an Egypt for the Egyptians, then why not have an Israel for the Israelis? Yes, "Anyone who suffers should be helped."
"You can say what you want about this, but no amount of arguing or twisting or wheeling will change the fact that millions suffer and die while the rest of the world dresses up their own agendas as the most important."
There's a lot of wisdom in that statement, actually.
I have written about this before [mrnaz.com], but somehow, I don't think you'll care about the plight of anyone who is not Israeli.
I argue equally vehemently at those who "question" the right of a Palestinian state (and by extension Palestinians) do exist. If you had someone who, say, was insisting that Iran be wiped off the map, I'd object there too.
"Furthermore, the only real time Jews, Christians and Muslims have lived together peacefully was under Ottoman governance."
The analogy of the Jim Crow south is again quite appropriate. There have been other instances of a foreign occupying empire instituting peace ("Pax Britannica"). But is that justice?
"Israelis are not lowly or in need of sympathy."
There are several nations out to exterminate them. Any time such an atrocity is directed at someone, they earn my sympathy.
"In my opinion, the Israelis (and their British and American enablers) need to invest in paying compensation to those from whom they stole the land to create their nation.
I actually favor something like this, but it would be very complicated and involve long court processes. There are people that willingly abandoned their homes in order to "clear the battlefield" for a combined Arab army that tried to wipe out the Israelis once and for all early on. Surely these people who left their homes in willing participation in attempted genocide do not deserve them back. There are also many claiming "right of return" who never lived in Israel or any of the territories.
Once you weed these out, there are indeed people with legitimate grievances. I know someone personally (an Arab American) who had his parent's home in Jerusalem "house-jacked" by Jewish settlers. These are the ones who deserve compensation.
"Peace is not going to be possible until those crimes are acknowledged and some reparations made."
It might help, but there are people there who hate the Jews just for being Jewish, and this goes back long before the "Zionists." People like this tend to run the governments and the powerful religious heirarchy in several of the nations involved. To them, such an idea is not a solution, but merely a stepping stone to elimination of the Israelis.
"In response to this, I think the USA should suspend all fiscal and military aid, impose economic sanctions and require that Israel allow in IAEA inspectors to view all nuclear facilities and aid in the dismantling of their nuclear arsenal. This would make the world much safer than spying bugs."
It would make the world more dangerous, and increase the risk of war, if you did this.
"I'm sorry, but genocidal regimes don't believe in that."
True. Genocidal regimes don't believe in "live and let live". The current Palestinian government surely counts as one of these: its charter explicitly calls for extermination of Jews and Israelis. Israel, interestingly enough, has never been such a regime, as it has always accepted the rights of Palestinians to live. Even during the darkist Likud days.
" I don't disagree with the fact that Israel has a right to exist"
That makes you different from Mr. Naz and several others whose range from "questioning" the rights of the Israelis to exist, to downright demanding the extermination of the entire nation. I've run into several similar hateful extremists on the other side who want the Palestinians wiped out. I think there has been just one little peep from this side in this particular argument. In contrast, there has been quite a contingent of "get rid of Israel" extremists. Even if you are not one.
" In fact, a lot of israelis are against what their government is doing to palestine and what they did to lebanon"
About Lebanon, what did you expect Israel to do about the roads and bridges when they were being used at the time to transport troops who were fighting against Israel and rockets that were being fired into Israel? The same with the airport? Who is to blame here: the country (Lebanon) that invaded Israel and used these roads as support for its rocket bombardment, or the country (Israel) which only bombed the roads and bridges after it asked Lebanon to stop the rockets and turn over the kidnap victims and Lebanon refused?
I am not against criticism. However, I am against invalid and hypocritical criticism.
You said: "Mr.Naz never said Israel doesn't have the right to exist"
You missed it when Mr. Naz gave a tip of the hat to the pro-genocide view when he said "Just out of interest, why is it that everyone seems to think that by default Israel should exist?". He did not specifically say that the Israelis did not exist, but he called into "question" the idea that they should be allowed to.
"Its like "You don't like us? Here's a missile for you!"."
Is it really an intent to mislead when you left out the "You blew up a bus" or "You keep launching rockets at our houses" from the middle of it.
"In the end, my dear Krell, I just think you are completely blinded by the pre-chewed spin-doctored propaganda crap..."
Perhaps you carefully skipped around the code word of the "Jewish controlled media"? I doubt that very much. I don't think that you buy into that idea. Rather, you have just vented a version of the lame old "you do not share my beliefs, therefore you are brainwashed" argument.
"You have extreme prejudice against anyone non-jewish and you don't even have to try and hide it, we can all see it."
A gross mischaracterization of the fact that I want the Israelis to exist just like the other nations in the area. Sorry for making you sick by standing up the the varying degrees of antisemitism shown so well with Mr. Naz's why should the israelis even exist question. You need to learn some tolerance.
"This is truly sad because nobody will even be able to have an objective unbiased conversation with you about anything Israel related"
I easily have such conversations with people who don't color everything with hatred of Jews, and don't present lies like the one you did above in which you said that Israel only fires rockets at people just because these people dislike Israelis (and never instigate violence against Israel).
"everyone is anti-semite and a zionist-basher and a nazi"
Not everyone. Only those who express antisemitic views. Thank you also for proving Godwin's law: you are the first one to mention anything about the modern views being argued here as being just like Nazis. (I only mentioned Nazis prior to this in the proper context of actual Nazi Germany's specific involvement in a limited historical time).
"you believe that because the jewish people that settled there were victims of crimes against humanity by the nazi movement, it gives them an excuse against any crime they commit towards anyone"
That's not my belief. I never said anything like that. However, this is now "par for the course" considering that you like to make things up.
"I understand some comments sound anti-semite or prejudicial and you are only trying to defend yourself"
So to you the comments like Mr. Naz's one that found the existence of Israelis something to be "questioned", (and the AC who told me that all Israeli civilians are war criminals and must be eliminated) only "sound" antisemitic?
"...and you just treat everybody the same way"
Well, that is a good summary of my view on the Middle East issues. I support the rights of all involved nations/peoples to exsit. This includes, of course, Lebanon and Syria and the others, but it also includes both Palestine and Israel. I've argued many times with hardline Israelis who want the Palestinians wiped out. They actually used a version of your claim "don't agree with me? then you are brainwashed" claim and said that I disagreed with these hardliners because I was brainwashed by Arab power and control in the media. I also support the rights of Israelis to exist when people like Mr. Naz sickeningly question why they should be allowed to exist "by default".
"In short, you just suck man"
This sort of debate tactic typically doesn't make someone look too smart, but it is a step up from the straw-man attack
I see that all you can do is offer hollow insult rather than point out one thing I got wrong. Perhaps you are upset that I blew your Japan in California analogy out of the water by bringing in the missing situations into the analogy (especially the part that made it analogous to the persecution Jewish people suffer in the "Muslim" world). You really should learn tolerance, even for the lowly Israeli.
"I see no "crushing" there, other than a statement saying something like "please don't invade our country, how would you react?"
King Abdullah does not mention that much of this "invasion" was settlers legally buying (not stealing) land, and the "reaction" was in the form of genocidal pogroms. Sort of like whites in LA getting upset with all the people from Mexico arriving and buying houses and paying apartment rent, so these whites decide to start killing Mexicans and stealing their property. That's a reasonable reaction just as incidents such as the Hebron pogrom were reasonable reactions to peaceful Jewish settlers.
It was also mentioned elsewhere that King Abdullah said in his speech(?) that the holy sites should be open to ALL faiths. What he did not mention is that under the administration of his government (Jordan), Jews were denied entry to the holy sites, and Jordan even actively desecreated Jewish graveyards. He certainly did not practice what he preached.
Only when Jerusalem was freed from control by oppressive theocracies did all descration stop, and the rights of ALL faiths to the holy sites have been respected. You can't deny that Israel's respect to the rights of all worshippers to access the holy sites has been exemplary. This page details how King Adbdullah I really felt about decency in such matters of respect as grave-sites. He even instituted a policy where "Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor ----despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city."
"and who's population has no real connection with the land before the 40s"
In the older/earlier population, there was a significant proportion who was either (1) the older indiginous Jewish population, which was always subject to Muslim oppression,and thus had dwindled a lot but always had a real connection to the land and (2) the settlers who had arrived PRIOR to the 1940s by buying land the proper way from Arabs/etc who lived there.
Also, what does "the land" mean? Just Israel, or the nearby area? Do you include another significant part of the Jewish population who were "encouraged" to leave neighboring Muslim countries and move to Israel?
"Lets say Japan occupied California in the 40s, and did not surrender it. I'm pretty sure that by today, Washington would still not say something like "Meh, it's been long enough, lets just forget the whole thing."
That analogy would be valid if we added other factors, such as the Japanese being purged and expelled from Asia, and also a situation where the Japanese in the rest of the US were specifically treated as criminals and denied basic freedoms. Also, to be comparable to the Israel situation, you'd have large numbers of Japanese arriving and settling by legally buying land, only to face having their land stolen by racist anti-Japanese Californians. Finally, California would have had to have consistent Japanese population going back into pre-history. Then, the idea of California as a sort of "reservation" for the Japanese would be comparable to Israel being the one place in the Middle East where one can be Jewish OR Muslim OR anything else in whatever way they want without fear of oppression.
One would imagine that if the Muslim world (especially Israel's Arab neighbors) was a secular place where people were treated with human decency regardless of their faith, and that they didn't have the Muslim laws that punished people just for being Jewish, there'd be no need for a special reservation on a very tiny part of the land. But no, most of the Muslim world has always been rather antisemitic.
"it was written in a time when the Arab world was the only place Jews could go to shelter from the onslaught of European antipathy towards them? "
Sort of self-inflicted. The major Palestinian leader of the time, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was so closely aligned with Nazi Germany that he arranged it so that Palestinians went to help the Nazi efforts in Eastern Europe in actual military units.
"....stock standard brow beatings pro-Zionists are so good at...."
Talk about straw man arguments!. I'm pro any nation's right to exist. If someone was calling for the elimination of the Palestinians, I'd argue against them (and I have).
When someone engages in Jew-bashing and justifies all sort of antisemitic atrocities (imagine presenting King Abdullah's attempted justification for crushing the Jews and not realizing that it only exposes the deep-seated antisemitism of Israel's enemies!) and stands later says "Sieg Heil", there isn't much irony present. It's just a summation of what came before. Why not learn an attitude of "live and let live"? The Israelis have a right to exist.
"you're obviously one of those idiots who equates criticism of Israeli foreign policy with anti-semitism"
I'm obviously not one of those. Even though there is little to criticize about Israeli foreign policy: Israel accepts the rights of all of its neighbors to exist, and only engaged in military operations against them when these neighbors attack first, the opposite of the demand for genocide and consant aggression from most of Israel's neighbors. I have a major criticism of their foreign policy: they retreated from Lebanon in July before the root cause of the problem (Hesbollah) was rooted out. However, this is a valid criticism, and is not typical of those who criticize Israel merely for daring to fight back when attacked.
Those who criticize Israel to the point of either insisting that Israelis must be gotten rid of (as several have demanded here) or blame Israel for wars that OTHERS started (like the conflict with Lebanon in July) are either woefully ignorant or consumed with some sort of extreme hatred. It's also idiotic to accept the justification for genocide and oppression expressed by King Abdullah..... His link never mentions that under Jordanian adminitration, Jews were prohibited from entering their holy sites in Jerusalem. It was only after Israel liberated the city that the "Holy Places, sacred to three great religions" became "open to all, the monopoly of none", and that is how it is now.
I think that would be extremely difficult. It's going to be hard enough to get robo-hornets to fly in the US. It's quite another thing to get something similar to work on Mars with its very thin air. I don't see any need for these on Mars (unless tiny caves are discovered): exploration is covered by satellites and by land-based rovers.
Excellent two-word summary of the views of the majority of the Jew-....ahem "Zionist"- bashers who have chimed in on this item to call for a second Final Solution.
" Also, I believe that those who are cheering the ongoing attrition are unaware or unappreciative of the price the public is paying as the ranks of professional reporters shrinks as print pubs struggle for survival"
As the paid reporters shrink, the number of reporters doing it for the mere love of reporting in the alternative/new media soars. As a result, we're finding out more about our governments and our societies than we EVER did when the news was limited to just the output of a few "professional" reporters. I, for one, cheer the ongoing attrition of the old-style reporters.
"hmmm... I believe we didn't have the same information as to what triggered the whole july war. What I heard is that the israeli soldier was captured on Lebanon's side of the border"
There were actually 5 soldiers who were victims. All of them were inside Israel. 2 were kidnapped. 3 were killed. Please see this page: "The conflict began when Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli military positions and crossed the border and capturing two Israeli soldiers (Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev) and killed three"
"So they captured a soldier and in exchange for his liberation they asked for israel to release illegally detained prisonners."
"But the question remains, if that technology could be used for a more positive constructive purpose. What would that be?"
Good question. I really can't see much of a use for robo-hornet aside from spying and assassination. One possible (and minor) use would be to help with assessing situations involving trapped minors, little Jessica down the well, etc.
"The world would indeed be a better place if you got rid of the [Jews]"
I cleaned up the code-word you used. How do you propose getting rid of them this time? Gas chambers? Or will mere bullets do? At least you are honest in that your hatred of Israel and your lies about history are part of the general idea of "getting rid" of Jews.
"We all saw how they misused military technology in Lebanon and destroyed a whole country"
Israel made proper defensive use of technology. The damage to Lebanon was all self-inflicted: they invaded Israel, and kept attacking it, forcing Israel to strike back at Lebanon.
"and misery to a country that was just getting back on its feet after a previous attack."
What "previous attack"? You conveniently forget that Lebanon started this "July War" and refused to end it. Probably the attack you were referring to was one of Lebanon's earlier self-destructive aggressions.
Slashdot Mirror
Yes, this kind of thing happens when an army uses a school as a military base.
A nation is its people. If you want to eliminate a nation, then you are asking for genocide. You are indeed "pro-genocide" if you are defending another's call to eliminate a nation.
". I'm sure they would prefer to do their genocide in private without the world watching but with the internet."
You have it backwards. You blame the victims of genocide, and actually have the gall to call them the perpetrators of it. It's pretty clear when you look at two competiting entities (one wants to exterminate the other, and the other entity accepts the right of the other one to exist) which one is engaging in genocide.
"By way of example, you seem to hold some grudge against the Muslim people"
...and it would satisfy the demands of those who want to get rid of Middle Eastern Jews once and for all.
No, I do not. I however reject oppressive theocracy, and believe in tolerance for different faiths (or lack of faith).
"which is rather strange given that a) the only time the Jewish people have enjoyed protection and prosperity under a non-Jewish, non-secular government was under the Ottoman government"
Did you know that under the Ottomans, the Jews were forced to follow Muslim laws and submit to Muslim authorities? Did you know that they also had to pay a special tax just for not being Muslim?.
"and b) persecution of Jewish people has long been at the hands of Europeans and Christians."
That is only complete when you mention "...and Muslims" at the end.
The Arab world reacted to a huge influx of Jewish migrants in the 30s and 40s, as well as the creation of a Jewish state in the middle of Arabia, where it had no logical reason to be.
That was the most logical place for it to be. However, it was not in Arabia. Arabia is to the southeast of the area. It was in the Eastern Mediterranean area. You also didn't mention that Jews fled persecution in nearby Muslim countries in order to move to Israel. To some degree, they were forced out.
"The Arabs owed nothing to the Jewish people for the holocaust, why make them pay?"
The Palestinians participated in the Holocaust
"Given the support the US gives to Israel, why not just make Israel in the US? That'd put an end to the Middle East dilema pretty quickly."
"Incidentally, you did not "blow my argument out of the water", you simply played the all-too-familiar "Jews are victims therefore need special treatment""
Actually, I don't think they deserve special treatment. They deserve equal treatment. If we can have a Palestine for the Palestinians, a Syria for the Syrians, a Jordan for the Hashemites, an Egypt for the Egyptians, then why not have an Israel for the Israelis? Yes, "Anyone who suffers should be helped."
"You can say what you want about this, but no amount of arguing or twisting or wheeling will change the fact that millions suffer and die while the rest of the world dresses up their own agendas as the most important."
There's a lot of wisdom in that statement, actually. I have written about this before [mrnaz.com], but somehow, I don't think you'll care about the plight of anyone who is not Israeli.
I argue equally vehemently at those who "question" the right of a Palestinian state (and by extension Palestinians) do exist. If you had someone who, say, was insisting that Iran be wiped off the map, I'd object there too.
"Furthermore, the only real time Jews, Christians and Muslims have lived together peacefully was under Ottoman governance."
The analogy of the Jim Crow south is again quite appropriate. There have been other instances of a foreign occupying empire instituting peace ("Pax Britannica"). But is that justice?
"Israelis are not lowly or in need of sympathy."
There are several nations out to exterminate them. Any time such an atrocity is directed at someone, they earn my sympathy.
"In my opinion, the Israelis (and their British and American enablers) need to invest in paying compensation to those from whom they stole the land to create their nation.
I actually favor something like this, but it would be very complicated and involve long court processes. There are people that willingly abandoned their homes in order to "clear the battlefield" for a combined Arab army that tried to wipe out the Israelis once and for all early on. Surely these people who left their homes in willing participation in attempted genocide do not deserve them back. There are also many claiming "right of return" who never lived in Israel or any of the territories.
Once you weed these out, there are indeed people with legitimate grievances. I know someone personally (an Arab American) who had his parent's home in Jerusalem "house-jacked" by Jewish settlers. These are the ones who deserve compensation.
"Peace is not going to be possible until those crimes are acknowledged and some reparations made."
It might help, but there are people there who hate the Jews just for being Jewish, and this goes back long before the "Zionists." People like this tend to run the governments and the powerful religious heirarchy in several of the nations involved. To them, such an idea is not a solution, but merely a stepping stone to elimination of the Israelis.
"Practically, that means that it's going to be my tax dollars that pay for reparations that justice requires."
I'm curious what this means. Does it mean a big cash payment to every Indian? Or does it mean making sure that treaties are honored?
"In response to this, I think the USA should suspend all fiscal and military aid, impose economic sanctions and require that Israel allow in IAEA inspectors to view all nuclear facilities and aid in the dismantling of their nuclear arsenal. This would make the world much safer than spying bugs."
It would make the world more dangerous, and increase the risk of war, if you did this.
"I'm sorry, but genocidal regimes don't believe in that."
True. Genocidal regimes don't believe in "live and let live". The current Palestinian government surely counts as one of these: its charter explicitly calls for extermination of Jews and Israelis. Israel, interestingly enough, has never been such a regime, as it has always accepted the rights of Palestinians to live. Even during the darkist Likud days.
"The School of the Americas is not about earning a degree in rural science."
Name a couple of the South American countries that were involved with the School of the Americas.
" I don't disagree with the fact that Israel has a right to exist"
That makes you different from Mr. Naz and several others whose range from "questioning" the rights of the Israelis to exist, to downright demanding the extermination of the entire nation. I've run into several similar hateful extremists on the other side who want the Palestinians wiped out. I think there has been just one little peep from this side in this particular argument. In contrast, there has been quite a contingent of "get rid of Israel" extremists. Even if you are not one.
" In fact, a lot of israelis are against what their government is doing to palestine and what they did to lebanon"
About Lebanon, what did you expect Israel to do about the roads and bridges when they were being used at the time to transport troops who were fighting against Israel and rockets that were being fired into Israel? The same with the airport? Who is to blame here: the country (Lebanon) that invaded Israel and used these roads as support for its rocket bombardment, or the country (Israel) which only bombed the roads and bridges after it asked Lebanon to stop the rockets and turn over the kidnap victims and Lebanon refused?
I am not against criticism. However, I am against invalid and hypocritical criticism.
You said: "Mr.Naz never said Israel doesn't have the right to exist"
You missed it when Mr. Naz gave a tip of the hat to the pro-genocide view when he said "Just out of interest, why is it that everyone seems to think that by default Israel should exist?". He did not specifically say that the Israelis did not exist, but he called into "question" the idea that they should be allowed to.
"Its like "You don't like us? Here's a missile for you!"."
Is it really an intent to mislead when you left out the "You blew up a bus" or "You keep launching rockets at our houses" from the middle of it.
"In the end, my dear Krell, I just think you are completely blinded by the pre-chewed spin-doctored propaganda crap..."
Perhaps you carefully skipped around the code word of the "Jewish controlled media"? I doubt that very much. I don't think that you buy into that idea. Rather, you have just vented a version of the lame old "you do not share my beliefs, therefore you are brainwashed" argument.
"You have extreme prejudice against anyone non-jewish and you don't even have to try and hide it, we can all see it."
A gross mischaracterization of the fact that I want the Israelis to exist just like the other nations in the area. Sorry for making you sick by standing up the the varying degrees of antisemitism shown so well with Mr. Naz's why should the israelis even exist question. You need to learn some tolerance.
"This is truly sad because nobody will even be able to have an objective unbiased conversation with you about anything Israel related"
I easily have such conversations with people who don't color everything with hatred of Jews, and don't present lies like the one you did above in which you said that Israel only fires rockets at people just because these people dislike Israelis (and never instigate violence against Israel).
"everyone is anti-semite and a zionist-basher and a nazi"
Not everyone. Only those who express antisemitic views. Thank you also for proving Godwin's law: you are the first one to mention anything about the modern views being argued here as being just like Nazis. (I only mentioned Nazis prior to this in the proper context of actual Nazi Germany's specific involvement in a limited historical time).
"you believe that because the jewish people that settled there were victims of crimes against humanity by the nazi movement, it gives them an excuse against any crime they commit towards anyone"
That's not my belief. I never said anything like that. However, this is now "par for the course" considering that you like to make things up.
"I understand some comments sound anti-semite or prejudicial and you are only trying to defend yourself"
So to you the comments like Mr. Naz's one that found the existence of Israelis something to be "questioned", (and the AC who told me that all Israeli civilians are war criminals and must be eliminated) only "sound" antisemitic?
"...and you just treat everybody the same way"
Well, that is a good summary of my view on the Middle East issues. I support the rights of all involved nations/peoples to exsit. This includes, of course, Lebanon and Syria and the others, but it also includes both Palestine and Israel. I've argued many times with hardline Israelis who want the Palestinians wiped out. They actually used a version of your claim "don't agree with me? then you are brainwashed" claim and said that I disagreed with these hardliners because I was brainwashed by Arab power and control in the media. I also support the rights of Israelis to exist when people like Mr. Naz sickeningly question why they should be allowed to exist "by default".
"In short, you just suck man"
This sort of debate tactic typically doesn't make someone look too smart, but it is a step up from the straw-man attack
I see that all you can do is offer hollow insult rather than point out one thing I got wrong. Perhaps you are upset that I blew your Japan in California analogy out of the water by bringing in the missing situations into the analogy (especially the part that made it analogous to the persecution Jewish people suffer in the "Muslim" world). You really should learn tolerance, even for the lowly Israeli.
"I see no "crushing" there, other than a statement saying something like "please don't invade our country, how would you react?"
King Abdullah does not mention that much of this "invasion" was settlers legally buying (not stealing) land, and the "reaction" was in the form of genocidal pogroms. Sort of like whites in LA getting upset with all the people from Mexico arriving and buying houses and paying apartment rent, so these whites decide to start killing Mexicans and stealing their property. That's a reasonable reaction just as incidents such as the Hebron pogrom were reasonable reactions to peaceful Jewish settlers.
It was also mentioned elsewhere that King Abdullah said in his speech(?) that the holy sites should be open to ALL faiths. What he did not mention is that under the administration of his government (Jordan), Jews were denied entry to the holy sites, and Jordan even actively desecreated Jewish graveyards. He certainly did not practice what he preached.
Only when Jerusalem was freed from control by oppressive theocracies did all descration stop, and the rights of ALL faiths to the holy sites have been respected. You can't deny that Israel's respect to the rights of all worshippers to access the holy sites has been exemplary. This page details how King Adbdullah I really felt about decency in such matters of respect as grave-sites. He even instituted a policy where "Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor ----despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city."
I see "crushing" there.
"and who's population has no real connection with the land before the 40s"
In the older/earlier population, there was a significant proportion who was either (1) the older indiginous Jewish population, which was always subject to Muslim oppression,and thus had dwindled a lot but always had a real connection to the land and (2) the settlers who had arrived PRIOR to the 1940s by buying land the proper way from Arabs/etc who lived there.
Also, what does "the land" mean? Just Israel, or the nearby area? Do you include another significant part of the Jewish population who were "encouraged" to leave neighboring Muslim countries and move to Israel?
"Lets say Japan occupied California in the 40s, and did not surrender it. I'm pretty sure that by today, Washington would still not say something like "Meh, it's been long enough, lets just forget the whole thing."
That analogy would be valid if we added other factors, such as the Japanese being purged and expelled from Asia, and also a situation where the Japanese in the rest of the US were specifically treated as criminals and denied basic freedoms. Also, to be comparable to the Israel situation, you'd have large numbers of Japanese arriving and settling by legally buying land, only to face having their land stolen by racist anti-Japanese Californians. Finally, California would have had to have consistent Japanese population going back into pre-history. Then, the idea of California as a sort of "reservation" for the Japanese would be comparable to Israel being the one place in the Middle East where one can be Jewish OR Muslim OR anything else in whatever way they want without fear of oppression.
One would imagine that if the Muslim world (especially Israel's Arab neighbors) was a secular place where people were treated with human decency regardless of their faith, and that they didn't have the Muslim laws that punished people just for being Jewish, there'd be no need for a special reservation on a very tiny part of the land. But no, most of the Muslim world has always been rather antisemitic.
"it was written in a time when the Arab world was the only place Jews could go to shelter from the onslaught of European antipathy towards them? "
Sort of self-inflicted. The major Palestinian leader of the time, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was so closely aligned with Nazi Germany that he arranged it so that Palestinians went to help the Nazi efforts in Eastern Europe in actual military units.
"....stock standard brow beatings pro-Zionists are so good at...."
Talk about straw man arguments!. I'm pro any nation's right to exist. If someone was calling for the elimination of the Palestinians, I'd argue against them (and I have).
When someone engages in Jew-bashing and justifies all sort of antisemitic atrocities (imagine presenting King Abdullah's attempted justification for crushing the Jews and not realizing that it only exposes the deep-seated antisemitism of Israel's enemies!) and stands later says "Sieg Heil", there isn't much irony present. It's just a summation of what came before. Why not learn an attitude of "live and let live"? The Israelis have a right to exist.
"you're obviously one of those idiots who equates criticism of Israeli foreign policy with anti-semitism"
I'm obviously not one of those. Even though there is little to criticize about Israeli foreign policy: Israel accepts the rights of all of its neighbors to exist, and only engaged in military operations against them when these neighbors attack first, the opposite of the demand for genocide and consant aggression from most of Israel's neighbors. I have a major criticism of their foreign policy: they retreated from Lebanon in July before the root cause of the problem (Hesbollah) was rooted out. However, this is a valid criticism, and is not typical of those who criticize Israel merely for daring to fight back when attacked.
Those who criticize Israel to the point of either insisting that Israelis must be gotten rid of (as several have demanded here) or blame Israel for wars that OTHERS started (like the conflict with Lebanon in July) are either woefully ignorant or consumed with some sort of extreme hatred. It's also idiotic to accept the justification for genocide and oppression expressed by King Abdullah..... His link never mentions that under Jordanian adminitration, Jews were prohibited from entering their holy sites in Jerusalem. It was only after Israel liberated the city that the "Holy Places, sacred to three great religions" became "open to all, the monopoly of none", and that is how it is now.
"Or how about sending those hornets on Mars?"
I think that would be extremely difficult. It's going to be hard enough to get robo-hornets to fly in the US. It's quite another thing to get something similar to work on Mars with its very thin air. I don't see any need for these on Mars (unless tiny caves are discovered): exploration is covered by satellites and by land-based rovers.
"Sieg heil!"
....ahem "Zionist"- bashers who have chimed in on this item to call for a second Final Solution.
Excellent two-word summary of the views of the majority of the Jew-
" Also, I believe that those who are cheering the ongoing attrition are unaware or unappreciative of the price the public is paying as the ranks of professional reporters shrinks as print pubs struggle for survival"
As the paid reporters shrink, the number of reporters doing it for the mere love of reporting in the alternative/new media soars. As a result, we're finding out more about our governments and our societies than we EVER did when the news was limited to just the output of a few "professional" reporters. I, for one, cheer the ongoing attrition of the old-style reporters.
"hmmm... I believe we didn't have the same information as to what triggered the whole july war. What I heard is that the israeli soldier was captured on Lebanon's side of the border"
There were actually 5 soldiers who were victims. All of them were inside Israel. 2 were kidnapped. 3 were killed. Please see this page: "The conflict began when Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli military positions and crossed the border and capturing two Israeli soldiers (Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev) and killed three"
"So they captured a soldier and in exchange for his liberation they asked for israel to release illegally detained prisonners."
"But the question remains, if that technology could be used for a more positive constructive purpose. What would that be?"
Good question. I really can't see much of a use for robo-hornet aside from spying and assassination. One possible (and minor) use would be to help with assessing situations involving trapped minors, little Jessica down the well, etc.
"all Americans for what they're doing to South America"
What are Americans doing to South America????
Why not just learn "live and let live"? There's no need to support the idea of the elimination of the Israelis.
"The world would indeed be a better place if you got rid of the [Jews]"
I cleaned up the code-word you used. How do you propose getting rid of them this time? Gas chambers? Or will mere bullets do? At least you are honest in that your hatred of Israel and your lies about history are part of the general idea of "getting rid" of Jews.
"We all saw how they misused military technology in Lebanon and destroyed a whole country"
Israel made proper defensive use of technology. The damage to Lebanon was all self-inflicted: they invaded Israel, and kept attacking it, forcing Israel to strike back at Lebanon.
"and misery to a country that was just getting back on its feet after a previous attack."
What "previous attack"? You conveniently forget that Lebanon started this "July War" and refused to end it. Probably the attack you were referring to was one of Lebanon's earlier self-destructive aggressions.