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Bionic Bugs To Fight Terrorists
dptalia writes "Israel is looking to create a small robot, no larger than a hornet to follow, film, and kill terrorists. It's just one of a series of weapons the country is considering as an alternative to conventional technologies. Other ideas floating around include gloves that would give their user 'bionic strength', and ultra-miniaturized sensors to detect explosives on suicide bombers." From the article: "The research integrates nanotechnology into Israel's security department and will find creative solutions to problems the army has been unable to address, Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres told Yedioth Ahronoth. 'The war in Lebanon proved that we need smaller weaponry. It's illogical to send a plane worth $100 million against a suicidal terrorist. So we are building futuristic weapons,' Peres said."
All, excelent, in a decade we will have cylons. Anything for freedom!
'The war in Lebanon proved that we need smaller weaponry. It's illogical to send a plane worth $100 million against a suicidal terrorist.'
Maybe it's just me, but that sentence makes it sound like we're running terrorists over with our jets. Teehee
Stuff like that gets reengineered or stolen and then its used against the Israeli elite.
We've been hearing about this type of thing in science fiction books, then movies, and then in magazines like Popular Science for at least the past 20 years. While I think we probably have the technology to create the hornets, I seriously doubt we have the technology to have them fly very far then deliver some type of lethal force (e.g. poison) to a specific target.
Plus, it's reasonable to assume that $100's of millions would need to be invested in such a "nanohornet" for it to be feasible. Heck, the current world's smallest flying robot is massive compared to a bee, and can only fly a few minutes (yes, this link is from 2003, and the the robot is still considered the smallest working prototype of a flying robot).
In my opinion, the israelis need to invest in far better armor and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. During their conflict with Hezbollah, the UAVs were a huge success. Also, wouldn't highly armored robotic vehicles be better than a hornet? For example, maybe an armored ball (kind of like those hamster balls) that would essentially be indestructable and roll around doing reconaiscence and shooting things. Just a thought.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
... what's Hebrew for "Skynet"?
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
the insects have already won.
What kind of bionic strength would gloves give? A bone crushing grip? You lift with your whole arm, not just your hands.
Demented But Determined.
Sounds like the flying robotic syringes in Dune, they silently fly around to find their target, then fly directly into them and inject some sort of fast acting poison (the spice?).
tm
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Building a miniature flying robot with cameras and transmission ability is well within current technology's reach. Stuffing in a battery with enough power to make the thing even vaguely useful is not. So what do they intend to power this with?
It's very unfortunate. It will not be only for terrorists. We will soon have "terrorists" and our political and business leaders simply picked off by a small, unseen remote controlled insect carrying a poison payload.
As if the world's oppressed peoples didn't have enough to deal with, now they've got to look over their shoulders for paparazzi hornet-bots and Lee Majors in a Nintendo Power Glove as well? What next, motherfXckin' snakes?
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Wouldn't need much force to have a needle in it and a small amount of ricin. Small ricin coated pellets were used atleast once, in the assassination of a journalist during the cold war iirc.
Who thought up "bionic hornet"? Seriously, it sounds like the perfect title for a cheap B-movie. How about, "Bionic Hornet 2:The Spawning"?
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
What really bugs me: What if these killer bugs have bugs?
No big deal, you just have to buy a few more rolls of fly strips and hang them from your windows and doors.
Yes, what a fantastic plan... that is until the terrorists invent rolled-up newspaper! Then whatcha gonna do?
FFFFFFFFFFACE!!
the ``Shadout Mapes'' who is sent to summon him...
I haven't actually read dune but I have seen the 80's film. Is "Shadout Mapes" the name of the housekeeper or is this some kind of title?
There is a ton of Dune books out there, should one start with the original Dune or are there better books to be read by someone with the knowledge of the film in mind? I know some stuff was changed but I don't know how much.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
( ) Old fashioned terrorist. ( ) Small, hard to detect, killer robot hacked by a terrorist.
Joe NoGamer: Slow news day? Whats the deal? Everyone at slashdot loves to see BUGS on the news!
Jen ToPo: Nope, all the rich nerds are waiting in freezing temperatures for a PS3
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
As a staunch Israeli supporter, this really frustrates me. Yes, it will reduce civilian casualties. Yes, it will be able to destroy missle launchers without having to go in and do any fighting. Yes, it will render the Hamas tactic of hiding amongst their own people useless. But no, there's no way you're going to establish trust with a people when you have killer robotic hornets flying around their homes.
If only they were this creative and imaginative when sitting down to try to solve a conflict peacefully. This goes for both sides, and it applies in most conflicts.
Remember, no matter how intelligent the weapons inventors are, it's still violence; and "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent".
Wouldn't it be easier to call on God to deliver a plague of locusts? Worked for Moses.
Bullets ARE about the size of a hornet and already follow and kill people.
If the bullet was following someone cleaver enough to move out of the way, it is very very cheap to send another.
...SHEIKS with frikken laserbeams attached to their heads!
Sure, but how do we power the thing? Battery definitely wouldn't work, and solar power isn't efficient enough yet to power something as small as a hornet. Extended propulsion is almost certainly the biggest obstactle - as you and others have stated, we already have the technology to create a machine the size of a hornet that can carry poison.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
Israeli governments seem to learn nothing from their history. Their solution to every problem is higher walls and more powerful weapons. This latest proposal, however, is to develop something which has proliferation implications as nasty as nasty as nuclear or chemical weapons. How is Israel going to contain it (even if their intention is not to earn foreign dollars by selling on to "friendly" states?)
Weapons of this type are destroyers of democracy. They mean that politicians have to hide behind ever stronger defences until they are incapable of living as normal people and cannot relate to them. It is an absolute tragedy that the people whose ideas are so much of the bedrock of modern civilisation seem to have an offshoot who are determined to undermine it.
Pining for the fjords
Really, how do you defend against something like that? An assassin no larger than a honey bee,
:-). Im all for it!
the next generation not larger than an ant... You would have to spend the rest of your life
in a hermetically sealed room with an airlock.
Scary as it seems I think this kind of technology could be a great leveller, upping security
precautions to the untenable and thus denying the current elites freedom of movement and at
the same time diminishing their well-being... all in a world where a tilted window can spell
death for this people
I find it funny that the state of Israel is considering the creation of a biobug to harass a group of people they provoke, yet their still manage convince (even /.) that THEY are not the terrorists. I hope this comes back to sting them in the face.
KPOM aka AC
If israel will stop its racist persecution of the Palestinans, and return all land stolen since 1940, then many of the problems in the Middle East would vanish. The creation of the type of weapon parallels the creation of other high technology weapons by the Third Reich during the second world war. Same master race ideology, same land grabbing, thieving, murdering Nazi maniacs.
In my opinion, the israelis need to invest in far better armor and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. During their conflict with Hezbollah, the UAVs were a huge success. Also, wouldn't highly armored robotic vehicles be better than a hornet? For example, maybe an armored ball (kind of like those hamster balls) that would essentially be indestructable and roll around doing reconaiscence and shooting things. Just a thought.
Well you're right the UAVs worked great, and you're right that they need far better armor if they want to continue using armor. The RPG-29s and guided missles used by Hezbollah did a number on the IDF's Merkava MBTs, considered one of if not the most heavily armored tanks in service. Between those relatively cheap shoulder-fired infantry weapons, and the shaped-charge mines Hezbollah had sprinkled throughout their territory, it was demonstrated pretty conclusively that today's armor isn't standing up to even the guerilla weapons. More armor is needed, though I'm not sure that's the right tack to take.
First, tanks aren't that great in the kinds of environments we're talking about: hilly terrain with valleys and choke points that can be littered with mines and give attackers on the ridges an ideal firing line to hit the tank's weak point, and cities and villages that have basically the same properties. A slow moving tank with an enemy on high ground is vulnerable.
Second, there is no such thing as "essentially indestructable". In the ages-old battle between weapons and armor, weapons always win eventually. There have been times that armor would have a brief period of success, but then the weapons would advance one generation and the armor would fall behind. This is just the nature of the beast: it's easier to destroy than to resist destruction. It's easier to focus a large amount of energy on a small area, whether the tip of an arrow fired from a longbow or the shaped-charge explosive of an RPG, than it is to build a material that can resist that energy, whether steel armor or the advanced composites used in MBTs. Reactive armor was designed to defeat the shaped charge rockets, so the rocket designers responded by simply adding a smaller charge ahead of the main one to defeat the reactive armor so the big charge can hit the main armor with full force. Just as the cannon signalled the end of the castle, the RPG-29 and ilk are signalling the end of MBT armor.
Not that tanks aren't useful and further armor developments serve no purpose, it's just that you aren't going to get much of a lead even over non-state-militaries like Hezbollah. An autonomous tank would be nice because when it gets destroyed you haven't lost a tank crew as well. Plus you could design it to be more robust than a manned tank (where breaching into the crew compartment is basically all you need to do). But it isn't going to be an indestructable ball of death, that is for sure.
The enemies of Democracy are
Nice to see the Israeli military get some of their best ideas from an eleven-year-old TV show.
OR, we could always just give the land back to Palestine that Britain and the US stole in 1948. Get rid of the fake nation called Israel and you will get rid of the terrorists. Israel has and always will be the problem so long as it continues to exist.
Perhaps you'd rather continue support of genocide with your American tax dollars? In that case, go ahead, invent your Ricin-laced nano-hornets (paid for with US dollars) and sting away!!
Well, I guess it's time to design my line of powerful electromagnetic door and window frames!
Lets see you film me when I flashfry your memory, stupid bug!
Oh, new tin-foil hat... randomly swipe a powerful magnet over any bug you see!
Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
Other ideas floating around include ... ultra-miniaturized sensors to detect explosives on suicide bombers.
So, how long before you slap at a mosquito at the airport then get sent to Gitmo for destroying government property and aiding terrorism?
If you don't use OFF!, the terrorists win.
-Now I may be an idiot, but there is one thing I am not sir, and that, sir, is an idiot.
Just take one of the new RFID tags, load them with bumblebee.exe, add some mechanical wings, and ...
When it comes to weapons of ideological control, bigger is better.
Is is simply a matter of time until a nation develops a weapon capable of the permanent extermination all of the human race in the flip of a single switch by one man.
At that time we will finally have world peace either because the world will meet the demands of the holder of the weapon, or the weapon will be used if the world fails to meet said demands.
Why hold 2 or 200 people hostage or wield single man suicide weapons when only holding the entire world hostage with a global suicide bomb will achieve the ultimate ideological goals of a nation or man.
Humanity cannot progress further until that critical point is reached. I pray that such a weapon is developed before we slowly and painfully kill ourselves through our own stupidity and greed.
When it comes to weapons of ideological and philosophical control, go big or go home.
I find modern conflicts laughable and pointless, death on such a small scale will achieve nothing.
Beebrew? Hebee?
Am I the only one who finds it laughable that nowadays practially every new piece of military tech these days is about fighting 'terrorists'? This technology could, of course, be used on people who are not terrorists, and it probably will be if it goes into production. This includes legitimate uses such as actual combat against soldiers who are not terrorists. Believe me, those do still exist. Even outside the US.
Of course, the flip side of the coin is the ongoing effort to redefine everyone the US is about to strike against as 'terrorists' beforehand.
Sorry if I'm way offtopic, but this just struck a bad chord with me.
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
Some times when it is a slow terror day, the Israelis will bomb one of their own school buses so lets
go behind the movie screen here where you will find our good shepherds of the sheeple feuding each other.
This is where that kind of technology is used and on people whose names never make it to the other side
of the screen.
In my opinion, the Israelis (and their British and American enablers) need to invest in paying compensation to those from whom they stole the land to create their nation.
Peace is not going to be possible until those crimes are acknowledged and some reparations made.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Read the first book. Then stop reading them. Every book after the first one was absolute crap.
Read them in order. They will make more sense and they quality defiantly tails off in the latter ones. (and avoid all the non-Frank ones).
Opinions of the films differ, personally I think the Lynch one succeeds in both being a good film and not ruining the book. However it certainly doesn't replace the book.
If technology begins to mimic biology more and more, does the line between conventional warfare and biological warfare start to become blurred?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I was thinking to myself the other day of the same thing...
If you make a tank automous or at least remote controlled, then you don't really have worry about protecting the crew anymore. Hence you can replace the saved weight with something devoted to firepower, fuel, and speed.
In fact, why not make the tank cost $500,000 rather than $10 to $25 million and make a whole slew of them with mass production
Sure an RPG could kill it with one hit, but a well placed mine or RPG could immobilize the best armored tank anyways.
You could simply put these out as 24 hour sentries or suicidal armored spear heads without the risk of loss of life.
Considering how limited the manned tank crew's vision to the outside world is anyways, I can't see how having multiple cameras and a remote feed to a crew in a bunker somewhere can't be an improvement.
Can anyone think of downsides of remote controlled tanks?
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
is that Muslims think that once they conquer a region, they own it for all time, even if it reconquered later. Blaming Israel is just a tactic used by arab leaders to divert the population's attention away from the real obstacle to peace and prosperity in the Middle East - themselves.
renouncing violence and recognising the right of the oppressed to, well..., life?
The only way you could power something that small would be to replicate nature using ATP chemicals and remote controlled meat.
Perhaps put a chemical in the bug that has bacteria eating it producing some side effect, but the main problem is that the bug will constantly have to eat like a real one for its metabolism.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
...to the Diamond Age.
For further reading and insightful predictions about the sociological effects of nanotech, see Mr. Neal Stephenson.
Among his other speculations: as nanotech becomes ubiquitous (in the way that bacteria are today), societies will manufacture nanotech-based airborne immune systems for themselves.
FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
Peace is not going to be possible until those crimes are acknowledged and some reparations made.
But then we need to get the Palestinians to pay reparations to the people whose land they stole hundreds or thousands of years before, and we have to track down those peoples' descendents and make them pay reparations to the descendents of whoever had that land before that, etc. etc.
The Americans will have to pay reparations to the Native Americans (most of whom are only fractionally N.A.) for their land. The British need to determine how much French/Norman and Celtic ancestry they all have, and the people with less Celtic ancestry will need to pay reparations to the people with more Celtic ancestry. And then we need to go back farther in time and determine which Celtic tribes stole land from which other Celtic tribes, and determine which people are descended from which tribes......
Exactly how far back in time do we need to go in paying reparations? We're going to have to invent a machine to peer into time to see who owes who reparations.
Will it be able to arrest, charge, and try the terrorist in a court of law? If it can't, you're building an assassination weapon, and you are building up criminals into enemies. You don't fight criminals by gunning them down in the street.
Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
>considered one of if not the most heavily armored tanks in service.
They used russian-made/sold Kornets. I dont think theres any armor out there that can withstand a hit from those. Armor's not the problem its tactics.
Because as soon as the technology is available terrorists will start using them against the very political and military leaders who created them... DUH!
Time Crisis 4, much??
Would be even more apt if it sucked blood from the host instead of poisoned them.
Uniquely Jewish.
"But no, there's no way you're going to establish trust with a people when you have killer robotic hornets flying around their homes"
What trust? With the Hamas vote, already half of the Palestinians indicate that they want the Israelis exterminated.
Where were you when the voynix came?
All your tank are belong to us!
2) stealing the tank remotely
I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress -J Adams
They used russian-made/sold Kornets. I dont think theres any armor out there that can withstand a hit from those. Armor's not the problem its tactics.
You got that right. Tanks just don't mesh well with effective anti-guerilla tactics.
The enemies of Democracy are
Usually not a good sign! :) Read the first book and then invest your precious reading time in something else.
os trabalhos e os dias: http://zmoreira.net
Because as soon as the technology is available terrorists will start using them against the very political and military leaders who created them.
... each other.
Worse, much worse. Seriously.
The very political and military leaders who create assassination weapons will use them on
-kgj
-kgj
I think that the Israelis should 'hire' palestine children to strap bombs on themselves and 'visit' known terrorists. It's a win-win situation.
If it's designed by a pair of Israeli scientists they can call it a JewJewBee.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Easy. The communications link gets jammed/hijacked/lost. The baddies go turn the turret around and point it at your base and boom. (kinda like a real life priest from age of empires)
...For the beast had been reborn with its strength renewed, and the followers of Mammon cowered in horror.
renouncing violence and recognising the right of the oppressed to, well..., life?
You're talking about Love, as a political-social-spiritual force. Noble goal, of course -- worthy of Saints.
The problem is that Saints fall easy prey to Devils, over and over. The Devils tend to have most of the guns, and none of the moral inhibitions.
-kgj
-kgj
"Which side are you talking about? There was only one invading army in the recent Lebanese war"
There were two. Israeli's incursion into Lebanon after Lebanon's Hesbollah army invaded Israel can also be counted as in invasion, even though it was second.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Humans have used animals in warfare for thousands of years. What do you think cavalry are? The use of an animal, or something resembling an animal is not what's referred to as "biological warfare".
Biological warfare refers to using viruses, bacteria, and other infectious agents. What people call "biological warfare" is really germ warfare. There's a distinct natural line of using replicating biological agents that needs to be crossed for this to turn into germ warefare. Since these are simply just robots (although small robots) that contain no biological agents, this isn't getting anywhere near germ/biological warfare.
AccountKiller
What kind of bionic strength would gloves give? A bone crushing grip? You lift with your whole arm, not just your hands.
True. However --
I assume that gloves are much, much cheaper to develop and build than full-arm augmentation. (For full-arm augmentation, you really need full-body reinforcement -- upper body augementation to support the arm, augmented lower body to support the upper body.)
Crushing grip alone can be very useful. Close-quarters action -- break a man's bones. Useful for black-bag specialists -- shatter locks, etc.
-kgj
-kgj
Well, with Lieberman now part of the Israeli government, calling for the .. "expulsion" of all Arab-Israelis, perhaps they need to seek a "final solution?" I'm sure one could google for manufacturers in Germany that produces gas chambers and internment camp gear.
How 'bout it Olmert? Peretz? Lieberman? Why not complete the circle? Your people were so injured in WW2 (almost as much as the Russians)! That justifies ethnic cleansing, doesn't it?
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
The real reason why "Israel" needs all those weapons is because it cannot fight against the whole population.
The real solution to Middle East problem would be one democratic state on the Palestine territory (that of course, includes "Israel") with right of return for all displaced persons.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
"In my opinion, the israelis need to invest in far better armor and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles."
In my opinion israel needs to invest in finding ways to get along with it's neighbors and stop it's occupation of 3.5 million people.
If I was hated by my neighnors (and lets face it disliked by most of the rest of the world) then I might ask myself why and see I could maybe change one or two things to see if I could get along better.
It would be cheaper too and as an american who funds the majority if not all of the israeli military budget I would appreciate that.
evil is as evil does
Here's some data, historically challenged person. The modern nation of Israel was founded by a lot of european invaders, they are not "semites", and they are not "native" there and they have no historical claims of any value or validity to that land. Now this happened during and after world war 2 primarily. They only claim they might have is to some compensation turf inside of germany, italy and france, and that's it. Those nations and the rest of the allies just shuffled off the people no one cared about over to some place in arab-land where they were too weak to fight them off. If you also look at the history, Israel has *always* engaged in terrorism, false flag operations and basic generic genocide, all the time crying wolf and playing their holocaust card-see "europe" again, where that happened.
THEY have been the terrorists all along. The arabs there are 100% justified fighting back using any measures they have, because a lot of the world has abandoned them to genocide. The Israelis even today are for the most part not even close to being semites, so even there they are big fat liars when they say to be against israel means you are "anti semite". The semites are primarily muslim and some christian arabs, there are very, very, very few pure jewish semites, and even within their own nation they have hideously abused black jewish people from africa, go look it up. And if you look at their laws now, what are on the books and rigorously enforced, they are *worse* than south africa at the height of apartheid. Israel is one of the more heinously racist nations ever. You really need some education there, I suggest you get it before spouting off about subjects you have zero knowledge of.
Some people remain brainwashed, others have taken the time to actually look at the raw data of history and have identified the problem. The problem is racist zionism and the invasion of mediterranean lands by europeans. If europe and the US want to "support" them, they should insist that europe provide the land for the european jewish homeland, because they are the ones who committed any jewish holocaust action.
I would recommend reading the first 4 books only. That is: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, and God Emperor of Dune. After that things start going downhill fast. But the first 4 books sort of round out the original story arc and give you a good place to stop in the dune universe.
As far as the movie[s] goes, the 190 minute version is probably the better version. And I couldn't even stomach the SciFi miniseries that was produced. I think in the first 15 minutes they introduced characters that weren't supposed to show up until 5 years later and i just stopped watching. Pretty, yes, but looked to be an unbearable rewrite of the plot. Maybe I'm wrong and it turned out to be great, but I can't stand when made for TV versions take rediculous liberties with otherwise good storylines.
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
The Merkava Mk. 4 is often cited as the best armored tank in the world, though I'm not sure that is accurate. It is the tank offering best survival for the crew within, however. This has been achieved by various intentional design decisions, such as placing the engine in the front of the crew compartment as extra armor, and having rear exits for evacuating soldiers, as well as some tanks serving as heavily armored ambulances, with special space reserved for emergency medical treatment. Anyhow, as for the discussion about the future utility of tanks in the face of modern anti-tank weaponry, which has proliferated to the point of being available to any determined interested buyer, see the Trophy system and Iron Fist, two Israeli anti-anti-tank systems (the first of which is operational, but wasn't installed in tanks prior to the Lebanon conflict out of budgetry considerations, which in retrospect was a poor choice, not sure about the second).
"Probbably the Inca, Aztec and Mayans"
Two of those were in North America, and never South America. Whoever mentioned South America does not even know the continents these people lived on. The Inca did some human sacrifice (not any large scale), but they were in western South America, not northern South America.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Top Tip: avoid the "Legends of Dune" books like the plague they are. "Prelude to Dune" was more-or-less tolerable, but you won't think "I'm glad I took time to do that" when you finish reading or anything.
Great, Isreal will now have robots to kill innocent arab children with.
So far this year, Isreal is most known for the killing of 30 children in Lebanon(Qana). They killed 50 innocent civilians in Qana most were children hiding. Isreal also fired upon UN troops even after the UN had warned Isreal repeatedly that their artillary was too close. Isreal doesn't care about anyone or anything...except they like killing arabs.
And Isreal just last week "accidently" fired tank artillary into an apartment building killing several members of a family including children. Ooops! Isreal is a terrorist state if there ever was one. The US gives them $8 billion a year for weapons which is by far the most foreign aid the US gives to any country in the world. And arabs know this. Arabs also know the US has supported dictators from Saddam to the Saudis. The US and Isreal talk about democrasy and freedom but only support dictatorships that oppress arabs. And what does Isreal do with these weapons? They continue the US's proxy war against arab people. Its a proxy war but aim is clear, keep the arab people suppressed so that "friendly" dictators in the middle east will keep cheap oil flowing. And having Isreal there is perfect for these efforts.
First, the article didn't say the thing was the size of a hornet, it's just has it as a namesake. Since some hornet species are a large as a common house mouse, this thing could be quite large. Second, why bother with robotics when it is much easier to retrain actual wasps, hornets, and bees two a wide variety of odors. Heck even reletively non-volitile compounds like TNT can be detected. My facts here are based on results from some recent DARPA-funded projects in insect behavior.
That article is about North America. You earlier said this took place in South America. But now it makes more sense when we get the continent/location corrected.
Where were you when the voynix came?
...the guilt of grabbing land which does not belong to them and the guilt of killing thousands of innocent human beings is going to consume them
THe thing is , the US Department of Defence is putting those 100's of millions into said research, because of course they would love this tech too. Go to just about any decent sized engineering school and there's a bunch of money coming right from DoD into making robotic insects. It got to the point where it's not easy to to graduate work in robotics without taking DoD's money.
Man, I really Hope so... If anyone can put a name in a bullet, long names lists will come...
And this proves it.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=future+combat +system&btnG=Google+Search is what I have to say.
The thing that I'd worry about is *increased* politician apathy to the value of the resources being sent to war. It is one thing to send a person who you've invested some number of months and dollars training when you could just send dollars.
I think yours is an accurate reading of the situation. But why would Israel want to "reverse the situation" by committing suicide. The occupying Arabs simply do not merit it. They do not belong in Judeo-Christian lands. The most humane plan would be for each family in Judea and Samarra to be given $50,000 and entry to another Arab country.
an ill wind that blows no good
So what happens when this weapon (like all weapons) is sold to those countries that are considered allies today, but are viewed as enemies/terrorists tomorrow? How many times has the US and other western countries provided arms to countries to "help battle the enemy" and then have those same arms used against them?
Only ``Shadout'' was a title I believe --- everyone calls her ``Mapes'' so I think that seem to've been her name.
My thanks to chgros for the correction (it was ``hunter-seeker'' not ``hunter-killer'')
William
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
A bunch of Americans and European Zionists invade Palestine and push the indigenous people out.
The Palestinians resist.
The Zionists are outraged and they crackdown on the Palestinians. The Zionists steal more land. They justify it with; serves them right, the Bible says so, booty of war, they started it, etc. The Zionists declare the state of Israel. They declare that Israel is for Jews (only). Palestinians denied equal rights.
The Palestinians resist. They get more organized. The other Arab countries help in driving out the invaders.
The Israelis are better armed and led and defeat the Arab armies. They take more land and drive out the Palestinians. It serves them right, the Bible says so, booty of war, they started it, etc.
The Palestinians resist. They are poorly armed and led and are easily defeated. More land is stolen.
There are more wars against Israel. Israel is a regional superpower and is easily victorious. It is armed with the most advanced conventional weapons and a large nuclear arsenal. With American backing Israel has an unlimited supply of money and weapons. Israel cracks down. They take more land and drive out the Palestinians. It serves them right, the Bible says so, booty of war, they started it, etc.
The Palestinians resist. They are getting more effective with weapons that Israel cannot counter; terrorism and suicide bombings.
Israel cracks down. They take more land and drive out the Palestinians. It serves them right, the Bible says so, booty of war, they started it, etc. There is talk of the "Israeli final solution". Israel uses death squads to kill Palestinians. The call them "terrorists" but are rather casual in applying the label. Water and food are used as weapons.
The Palestinians resist.
Etc.
----
Does anyone see a pattern here? Will more technology make the oppression so effective that Israel will have peace? Not likely. The more Israel oppresses the Palestinians the more they will resist. Perhaps this pattern needs to be broken?
Let us demand that Israel become a country of equal rights. Jew and Moslem, Caucasian and Semite, all equal! It is something that we Americans believe in for ourselves, let's apply it to Israel. Israel is a Jewish supremacist state and is living in a world of its own making. It has the power to change.
And before you start with the usual diatribe against Arabs and how they wanna drive Jews to the sea, the origin of the conflict was not the capture (not kidnapping!!!) of the Israeli soldiers, but the regural violations of Lebanese airspace by IDF jets. Heck, even the French peacekeeping troops were gonna shoot them down. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2640384
Res publica non dominetur
...Microsoft is doing this for years, and it doesn't help a bit! No idea if their bugs are bionic tho.
Perhaps you meant to append a smiley-wink?
But seriously, you've stated the central question -- "Who gets to live, who do we kill?"
The bigger problem is that the political and military leaders who create assassination weapons will continue to use them on "terrorists", the definition of which will slowly expand as those leaders feel threatened from more directions.
That's a monstrous problem, for sure -- I don't mean to minimize that aspect at all.
But I stand by the significance of my original argument.
When there's a coup d'etat, we should expect that the Loyalists and the Rebels will use their arsenals on each other, including assassination bugs. (Although, perhaps the assassination bugs will take down the Loyalists before they even know what hit them?)
For that matter, we should expect the powers-that-be to use their bugs on anyone who poses a threat -- including political opponents and troublesome citizens. Death by heart attack in sleep -- so much quieter and cheaper, than, say, engineering a light-plane crash.
God help us all if a new COINTELPRO or Operation Gemstone * unleashes cyber-bugs on "enemies of the State".
-kgj
-kgj
yup, just as I thought... someone must tell these people that "-1 overrated" is no substitute for intelligent discussion.
No sig for the moment.
If you wanted to show a visitor from Mars the greatest achievment of the most intellectually prominent religious group the world has ever known, where would you go? Israel or New York? If you wanted to point to the highest pinnacle of Medieval civilisation, where would you go? The Catholic corruption in Rome and Avignon? Or the advanced civilisation in Granada where Muslims, Christians and Jews managed to live together successfully?
The problem is all the warlords, gang leaders and child abusers that band together in the name of a particular religion and project their territorial imperatives and hatreds onto others. There are plenty of Christian examples and Muslim examples. There are, and for some reason it particularly makes me sad, Jewish examples. But no group has a monopoly of good or evil.
Pining for the fjords
In response to this, I think the USA should suspend all fiscal and military aid, impose economic sanctions and require that Israel allow in IAEA inspectors to view all nuclear facilities and aid in the dismantling of their nuclear arsenal. This would make the world much safer than spying bugs.
Fast forward a few years. Black market arms dealers offer bug-sized devices that can kill any individual who's outdoors or in unfiltered air.
Who gets the most power out of this technology, big governments or assassins?
Dangit, that was MY solution to terrorists. I had it all drawn up.
See the core of my invention was this little robotic hornet that could fly around through public areas analyzing people and picking out possible terrorists. Specifically, it could detect skin color, smell terrorist stink (e.g. body odor and gun powder), and analyze facial expressions for signs of Jihad-level grouchiness. The robotic hornet would transmit its data back to an underground cave control center where heroes could monitor its activity - it would draw nice red boxes around the faces of the people being analyzed, have 50X zoom capability, show what the hornet is thinking with text scrolling up very rapidly in the corner of the screen, display GPS info, and all that sort of stuff. When the hornet determined within 95% certainty that a person was a terrorist, the little red box on the heroes' display would turn into a cross-hair and blink over the suspect's face, zoom in rapidly, and the heroes would be given an option like: "OK / Ignore / Cancel / Don't Ask This Again".
If the heroes in the control center gave the OK, then the hornet would zip itself at the back of the suspect's neck, and then use some bionic gloves to bore itself into the subject. Once inside, it would interface itself with the subject's spinal cord, thereby taking complete control over the suspect. At this point, by snooping for Jihad-related traffic in the subject's nervous system, it will be known quickly whether the suspect is indeed a terrorist.
If the suspect is a terrorist, then the robotic hornet with bionic gloves essentially acts like a remote control transmitter/receiver, allowing the heroes in the underground control center to take complete control over the terrorist. (the underground control center will need some kind of antenna that sticks up above ground of course) Using a custom built super computer with brain analysis software, perhaps called Microsoft Jihadinator 2007, the heroes can actually view the terrorists thoughts, memories, and dreams, as if watching television. With this capability, the heroes can easily determine the location of the terrorist cell. Using a joystick, a hero can then (essentially) drive the terrorist back to the cell headquarters. The hero will have a microphone, and whatever he says into the microphone, the terrorist will say. This will help get past "what's the secret word" type checkpoints.
Once the terrorist is inside the cell headquarters, the hero has a number of options. Firstly, if the terrorist is already wired up with dynamite, then the hero can instruct the terrorist to self destruct. If the terrorist is not wired with dynamite, then the hero does have limited capability to grab one of the AK47s on the bomb-making table and start shooting other terrorists. However, complete control of this extreme is not possible until technology can catch up. Don't expect the terrorist to kill more than eight or nine fellow terrorists before being taken down if this option is exercised. Finally, the robotic hornet shall be equipped with a small explosive charge - preferably a small dirty bomb in a tiny suitcase. The hero can walk the remote controlled terrorist over to the bomb making table where all of the terrorists are making bombs and posing for photographs, and detonate the tiny dirty bomb. Given the proximity to bomb making materials at this point, the resulting explosion should destroy a large portion of the cell.
While an invention of this nature could eventually fall into the wrong hands, I believe that it would solve the terrorist problem once and for all. The hardest part about fighting terrorists is actually killing them. They're very resilient.
It's funny, I thought the exact same thing. I'd have modded you up if I had the points. :D
The US released a strategy document saying they keep 10 years ahead of civilian technology. That Epson micro-robot would be alot smaller with 10 years additional technology. I wouldn't be surprised if the DoD already have flying Robot-Hornets.
OhGuckingWell ... bullet today, bug tomorrow, all for the best with less collateral death and destruction. Atleast it is economically practical for US, EU ... whoever. Iran maybe will give up the nuke option for safer technology, think of everyone technology will be saving and many stories will not even reach the evening news for US, EU ... many.
A natural looking death by accident or illness is really best for everyone.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
> I seriously doubt we have the technology to have them fly very far then deliver
> some type of lethal force (e.g. poison) to a specific target.
Perhaps we should consider co-opting real hornets. After all didn't we read that someone had control over cockroaches or rats. Bio-engineered hornets with built in wifi sounds perfectly feasible. Probably we can get them trained up to attack only people with headbands, or beards, or blue eyes or whatever. Scent discrimination is in the vespidae genes we might even be able to breed them to attack only members of one race. Greeeaaat
what is wrong with people here, I am surprised how detail you are going about killing machine. don't you think you should spend time figuring how to stop conflict. killing people will not bring peace, it wil bring more killing. maybe you can kill them all.
"Unlike in Darfur, where the world disapproves but is too lazy/incapable of fixing the problem, in Israel not only are we not trying to stop the war, we're FACILITATING it."
To make clear the actual genocide problem (and you were blaming the VICTIMS!), here are some quotes from the current Palestinian government and their actual charter: "Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" [At least they do not hide their hatred behind the code word "Zionists"]..."The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees.". The charter includes many other references "evil" Jews and the necessecity to eliminate and/or subjugate them.
In contrast, the government of Israel supports "there should be an independent viable Palestinian state". Also seen are the statements "In that case we will have to move forward, even without a Palestinian partner, in order to separate from the Palestinians, to pull out from areas in the West Bank"..... This is in distinct contrast with the extreme hardline imperialism advocated by Hamas.
Where were you when the voynix came?
I think it's great the music for Total Annihilation came on right as I opened this article.
Go go nano-beez.
"Other ideas floating around include gloves that would give its user 'bionic strength'..."
So...would that make it some kind of...power glove?
That's SOOOOOO bad.
Phantasm And you should see the chief scientist.....
The strong do what they can, while the weak suffer what they must.
whose land they stole hundreds or thousands of years before
I took your skateboard 25 years ago. It is still in my basement.
My late grandfather stole your late gradfather's pogo-stick.
You don't see the difference there?
also, reparation shmeparations, just give me back my skateboard.
"Exactly how far back in time do we need to go in paying reparations? "
Well thousands of years is probably silly, but 50 years is reasonable, since some of the people who lost their land may still be alive. Or their immediate descendants. We in Canada are paying reparations for a government imposed head tax on Chinese immigrants back in the 20s, this is pretty reasonable. Two generations maybe?
Better to pay the reparations now and be done with it, than to continue killing and subjugating and entire people, creating more and more enemies as time goes on....
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
There's a reason our brains aren't made of silicon and our bodies aluminium.
Deleted
When people who are still alive who have been the victims of the acts in question, reparations are due. Perhaps extending to the immediate children and grandchildren of those people (I note that some Holocaust reparations have gone to heirs, not to Holocaust survivors).
Also, so long as political entities remain extant, so do their obligations. The U.S. has treaty obligations of Native nations, even if the people who signed those treaties are long dead. Similarly, as Jack Straw has admitted, Great Britian bears much of the responsbility for the fscked-up sitation in the Middle East, from the Balfour Declaration that started the theft of Arab lands for the benefit of Zionism, to the formation of Iraq; the Britian ought to live up to its obligation to people in those areas.
For land, no; but reparations are due for extensive contemporary treaty violations with Native nations, and for recent acts of cultural genocide. There are men and women out there now who as infants were stolen from their Native American parents and given to "good White Christian" families to be raised. (In a more good ol'-fashioned style of genocidal policy,thousands of Native women were compeled into sterilizion in the 1970s.)
Similarly, while slavery reparations may be a dead issue, reparations are long overdue for every person who suffered under segregation laws.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
"that started the theft of Arab lands for the benefit of Zionism"
Thanks for the nice antisemitic intentional misreading of history. Interestingly, the statements about Natives are quite correct, but this antisemitic rant about the "theft" of protecting people's own land and the "Zionist" bogeyman might as well have been lifted from a Hesbollah speech.
Where were you when the voynix came?
I, for one, welcome our new bionic insect overlords.
The
"We in Canada are paying reparations for a government imposed head tax on Chinese immigrants back in the 20s, this is pretty reasonable"
Don't knock the Chinese head-tax. It kept the numbers of two- or three- headed Chinese to a minimum, didnt it?
Where were you when the voynix came?
Why put it in quotes? I've typically seen such tricks used rarely in other parts of the world for countries that someone wants wiped out. Why not just leave the quotes off? As for the antisemitic friend, he's an AC, not imaginary. I can link you to one of his venomous pro-extermination rants if you want. As he's an AC, I have not yet had the chance to mod him friend OR foe.
Your combined nation idea (further up, grandparent post maybe?) is quite interesting, and is an idea I support under certain conditions. Would it include Gaza or any parts of Jordan? Would the government be relentessly secular, but still allow-support important Jewish, Muslim and other holidays?
Where were you when the voynix came?
Anyone smell money to be made it the bionic bug spray market?
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
That's a good point, there should be some human anguish attached to going to war. Now if we could only convince Muslims that they are not really going to heaven for suicide attacks, the world would be a much saner place.
Gee, I seem to remember Israel giving land "back" to the palestinians. What did they do? Went on a rampage, used that land to launch an attack and kidnap people. Use the land to fire rockets into Israel. I think you need to examine who is really the main cause of unrest in Israel.
Cliff Claven
K.E.G. Party Chairman
Founding Leader of: Koncerned for Egalitarin Governance
On the contrary... if Israel had WANTED to commit a war of that nature, they wouldn't have been using laser guided bombs and air bombardment. The would have simply leveled everything in their path and slowly swept up to Beruit to demand surrender.
Cliff Claven
K.E.G. Party Chairman
Founding Leader of: Koncerned for Egalitarin Governance
Please substantiate or withdrawl your accustion of anti-Semitism. I'm sure my Jewish friends, including a few former lovers, would agree that I have no prejudice against Jews, or other Semetic peoples. Indeed I have a great respect for Jewish culture - and I think it's a shame how it was perverted in the founding of Israel.
Indeed, it was the fact that anyone who questions the actions of Israel is immediately labeled an "anti-Semite", rather than being met with actual argument, that first caused me to question the conventional wisdom on Israel.
The land in question was owned by Arabs. The British government (influnced by millennialist Christians who believed that Jerusalem had to be returned to the Jews so that Jesus can come back) stole it, to give to Zionists - that is, people seeking to establish a Jewish homeland.
"Zionism", while often used as a scare word, is the proper term for the movement to obtain a homeland for the Jewish people. Some called for it to be established peacefully, some were willing to use force; some said it could be anywhere (indeed, some argued that the U.S. was it), some insisted it had to be in Palestine; some were secular, some believed that God had promised "his people" some piece of land.
One strain of it, sadly the one that became dominant, called for that homeland to be established in Palestine, by any means necessary, with strong religious overtones.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Yeah, "shadout" was a Fremen word meaning "well-dipper", so it's a cross between a title and a nickname. Like "Smith". Or "Hunter".
Setting a good example by starting to plan for reparation payments to Iraq would be a good start. And I am not talking about the land but all the death and injury and loss of assets that civilians had to endure because of this foolhardy war.
"Indeed, it was the fact that anyone who questions the actions of Israel is immediately labeled an "anti-Semite"
That is not a "fact": it just a straw man. It is possible to make reasonble criticism of Israel. However, bashing it through code-words, questioning the very right of its people to exist, echoing false claims about history? Those are not reasonable. Hatred of Israel is indeed based in antisemitism.
You are forgetting (of course) the real history: that the Jews there were indiginous natives or settlers who came there and bought land. However, the local Palestinian government (which was actually allied with and cooperated with Nazi Germany) could not stand this and instituted pogroms against these people who did not steal land. That was a particularly genocide form of antisemitism, and it was directed at the ones who had long-term continuous roots in the area as well as the newcomers. The solution of establishing a sort of "reservation" on a mere 1/6 or so of the land, in order to protect these people from genocide, was a very reasonable decision.
Your "The land in question was owned by Arabs" is quite misleading, considering that the local Arab authorities were working to steal land from the Jews. who had legitimately purchased it.
So now, at least there is one small place in that area where Jews aren't treated like dogs. It turns out to be, interestingly enough, the place in the area where Arabs and Muslims have the most religious, political, and other rights. But there are some who would rather that there was no such place. There is no real rational explanation for the hatred of Israel (even as mild as "sadness" that it exists)... which is why irrational reasons must be explored. Reasons such as antisemitism. Pointing out of the illogical antisemitism is an argument, not an evasion of one. One has to have a certain degree of antisemitism to be "sad" that Israel even exists.
Where were you when the voynix came?
But you're totally right in that they could have nuked the whole bazar. Should we thank them for not doing that?
Res publica non dominetur
Cats: All your base are infected with cybernetic insect assassins. Keep them.
Apocalypto
That IMDB entry speaks for itself. I'm not even going into historiography.
"Well, that's great and all, but please check your geography. Mesoamerican is not the same as North-American."
Check your geography indeed. Mesoamerican is the "same as" North American as French is the "same as" European. It is a subset relationship: Mesoamerica is merely the southern part of the continent of North America. Everything Mesoamerican is North American, but not everything North American is Mesoamerican. Never press the geography nazi.
Where were you when the voynix came?
All of "Apocalypto" takes place in North America, not in any part of South America. Check the IMDB entry. It refers to the Maya kingdom, which was in what is now Mexico, "...a located in North America"
Where were you when the voynix came?
"Er, no, they don't recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist, and frequently call for the people of Israel to be pushed out of the area they currently occupy"
And if these people go into the cattle cars, those instituting this ethnic cleansing will be most happy to remove them "by other means". Language from Hamas, Hesbollah, and Iran makes quite clear how little worth the lives of Jews have. Thus, intolerance for the right of a nation to exist is very little different from intolerance for the rights of its people to live if you indicate your willingless to kill them if they won't willingly participate in 'peaceful' ethnic cleansing methods. So yes, it is a "frequent call for extermination" since few anywhere really except the Israelis to leave on their own.
Please don't soft-pedal it and attempt to justify it for something less than what it is. We've even seen this in practice rather recently in former Yugoslavia. Technically, the expansionist Serbian demogogues wanted the Muslims to peacefully leave Kosovo and Bosnia, but they were extremely willing to use other methods to bring about "no Muslims live here" when asking them to leave failed.
"this is little different than the frequent calls on the Israeli Right, which have abated a bit in the last few years, for the displacement of the Palestinian population"
That, too, was quite alarming. That would have also meant genocide, of course. No different at all. However, that has not been the dominant view in Israel, let alone a mainstream one, for some time now. In contrast, the call for such ethnic cleansing against Israel is a very strong position among several major players in that area. Any calls for "transfer" are little different than calls for genocide.
Where were you when the voynix came?
This terrorist-hunter-killer robo-wasp reminds me of the firemen's "dog" from Fahrenheit 451. It had poisoned fangs and hunted someone down by the scent of their DNA.
But that would never really happen, right?
(Of course, when I first read the book back in 1974 everyone thought there would never really be dog-sized hunter-killer robots.)
Mesoamerican. Not North American.
I am really not certain why you are replying. If you dig further inside your trusty wikipedia, you will see just how uninformed you are. You can't redraw historical and geographical lines as you see fit. My original comment was referring to the parent poster's ignorance of both history and geography and I see that my comment has trapped more than one person in a loop from which they can't break out.
America has more parts than just North and South. You can't (even just for the sake of argument) choose to arbitrarily polarize a unique, rich culture. The original poster decided to call all North American natives as savages and proceeded to claim that they sacrificed people and did not care about life. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. In his rants, he may have been referring to the stereotypical mesoamerican view of the indigenous people, NOT Northern.
If you think I am splitting hairs- I am not. This is an actual scholarly division of archaeological and historical evidence.
Continent-wise, the new world is devided into just two continents: North America and South America.
"America has more parts than just North and South. You can't (even just for the sake of argument) choose to arbitrarily polarize a unique, rich culture."
The geographic entities of "North America" and "South America" are not cultural ones.
"The original poster decided to call all North American natives as savages and proceeded to claim that they sacrificed people and did not care about life"
If it is the message I am thinking of, it referred to specifically South America, but instead meant groups like the Maya who lived instead in North America.
"Mesoamerican. Not North American."
Just like saying "French. Not European." Not an equality relationship, but that of a subset.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Terrorism is about creating fear. You can do this by blowing up people when they least expect it. You can also do it by stealthy kills, see, e.g., the Washington sniper. This proposed bot is an ideal terrorist weapon. Kill soem random stranges, without advance warning! Maybe even kill some important people with it.
I think developing this technology has far more risks than not developing it.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Any non-Jew on that land over there that we want to steal. This includes women and children. After all, the children will grow up into terrorists, and the women will give birth to future terrorists, so might as well get 'em early. Double points for a pregnant woman.
Software patents delenda est.
Wow. I guess any critisim of israel no matter how minor is flamebait.
Ok here we go.
Israel is the light and love of the world. They have never done anything wrong and without them the world would be plunged into darkness and chaos.
Can I get an upmod for that?
evil is as evil does
I, for one, welcome our new Israeli anti-terrorist bionic insect toting overlords. . .
"If your parents never had children, chances are you wonât either." -Dick Cavett
small is the new big
hate is the new love
ignorant is the new educated
Terrorist is the new Communist
Got a problem with the name of the State of Israel? Perhaps you would prefer to all it "the zionist entity" or "the little satan"?
Until you (and others like you) can bring yourself to recognize its right to exist, your viewpoint is as worthless as the democratically elected hamas government that continues firing hundreds of rockets at israeli towns while their people starve.
And those are not things that I have done. I've used no "code words"; Zionism is the proper name for the political movement and ideology in question. I've certainly not questioned any people's right to exist, I've just questioned political actions. And while I'm not a historical expert, it's clear that my understanding of the history involved covers facts that yours does not.
So Orthodox Jews who are opposed to the existance of a Jewish nation (an opinion I do not share) are anti-Semetic?
Lay off the ad hominem fallacies.
You are (conveniently) starting the story well in the middle. It's as if one were to argue that Native Americans who resisted settlers had no claim, since the settlers had after all bought land - ignoring that the claims of those from whom they bought the land were based on theft.
Any meaningful discussion of the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict must start with the British Mandate and the Balfour Declaration, and the British-backed immigration of Jewish settlers into the area in the 1920s and 1930s.
One has to be lacking a certain degree of common sense to think that the events in that region from 1917 to today have proceeded in the best imaginable fashion, and not to lament the failure of better alternatives, based on cooperation rather than colonialism.
Before the Balfour Declaration, Jews and Arabs lived side by side in a state of general tolerance; imagine if radicals in the Zionist movement and the British government hadn't screwed that up, if a small Jewish homeland had been allowed to peacefully develop.
Imagine if Pinsker had gained more support for founding a Jewish homeland in Argentina or some other Western nation, by peacefully negotiating for land; certainly that would have let to a better situation than today's daily violence.
Imagine if, after WWII, the Jewish people who had contributed so much to European culture and had been so horribly persecuted in the Nazi holocaust, had been given in reparation land in Germany to found a nation.
One can imagine dozens of alternatives to the current situation of a failed state propped up by America, a poisonous political sitation that is corroding the great legacy of Jewish culture.
If one can look at the current situation and not be sad, then one is insane.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Actually, thats not the worlds smallest flying robot, and power isn't much of an issue. The 'flying hornet' concept is actually extremely old technology, (late 90's if I remember correctly) and focused around the work on nueral networks to simulate insect flight, BECAUSE insect wing flapping is so damn energy efficient. The problem as I saw it was fragility, namely the fact that any minor impact caused them either to explode, or crash, at which point they could not resume flight. The problem is nothing todo with weapons, its more about Isreal needing to stop being such %$%$£"%^" "$^"^£%& to their neighbours.(google video)
There will be glass-lined craters, some filling with sea water to form circular bays.
I say we enjoy the show. It'll happen in any case. Let's get it over with. We can supply each side with 500 10-megaton fission-fusion-fission bombs and 500 cobalt-salted bombs. We can hand out the arming codes by radio, using Morse to be language-neutral.
I want nice video. Put HDTV cameras deep underground, using light-only periscopes to get a view without camera destruction.
This was done back in 1994 in the movie Richie Rich. It was pretty cool then, too.
"The Republican party is in power, has been for a while now"
Pssst. October 2006 called. It wants its political reality back.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"If I was hated by my neighnors (and lets face it disliked by most of the rest of the world) then I might ask myself why"
And then you would realize that you are hated merely because you are of the wrong religion, and that your neighbors will continue to throw grenades onto your lawn until you convert to their faith. That's a rather close analogy.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Get lost.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Of course, you could just invest the same funds in rebuilding (or maybe actually building) the palestinian territories, providing them with decent roads, schools, hospitals and municipal buildings and they wouldn't want to blow you the fuck up all the time...
Or is it too obvious and non-lethal a solution?
Don't be so ready to believe the bullshit that they have all sorts of super-powerful super-secret technology. This disinformation is directed at ignorant and gullible political extremists and Third World generals.
...are we scared yet?
"And then you would realize that you are hated merely because you are of the wrong religion,"
So let me get this straight. Israel has never done anything wrong, ever. It's so perfect and faultless that the only reason to hate them is because of their religion. Hey I know what maybe their neighbors also hate them for their freedom!.
Anyway historically jews and muslims have gotten along very well. It's the xtians that have historically persecuted the jews.
"That's a rather close analogy."
If you are complete idiot who lives in total ignorance then yes that's a close analogy.
evil is as evil does
... and a disingenious one at. It was the British who forced immigrant jews at gunpoint on the
Palestinians in a country that was then known as Palestine, and it were the zionist Haganah
terror commandoes who immediately thereafter started gunning down Palestinian families and
burning their homesteads while the British looked the other way.
Look there is not nearly as much support for the "Israel" as the propaganda in the western media
might make you believe. True they've been proselytizing it here for decades, but I think there
is just not enough fluoride in the water here for people to swallow it.
The world would indeed be a better place if you got rid of the Uberzionist Herrenmenschen who own
your pussies and got you to believe it is okay to slaughter people for the labor and land. Go
ahead and complain to your ADL or your JDL or wherever you turn to for that.
> For example, maybe an armored ball (kind of like those hamster balls)
God this is boring. Me want cool flying hornets. Imaging a cool warfilm with swarms of attacking killerhornets. Now the same with balls rolling around. See?
Gee, always those people and their feasibility
It seems reasonable to suppose that there are conventional programs that would result in more reliable and shorter term payoffs for Israel than nanotechnology and bionics. First off, why not divert extra funding into their intelligence services to increase the number of case officers, enhance their ability to run foreign agents in hostile neighboring states, and improve the analysis of the intelligence gathered by these additional agents with data mining and decision assisting software. Second, improve the existing remote piloted drone technology to include longer endurance, higher altitude, and stealthier surveillance platforms to more quickly identify targets of opportunity and expedite strikes. This could be coordinated with longer range rocket propelled artillery or faster and shorter endurance attack drones to service the targets identified by the surveillance drones. It should be cheaper and more efficient to operate drones than $100 million dollar piloted fighters, especially when one considers that terrorists generally do not have their own air forces to field against the drones. Finally, if Israel must work on some miniaturized bugging devices then why not concentrate on devices which could be used in a catch and release scenario whereby low level terrorists could be tagged (unknowingly of course) and released to make their way back to their base of operations or more important leadership targets which could then be targeted for elimination by the aforementioned drone network. These scenarios are certainly doable today with available technology and existing funds as opposed to a longer term and more uncertain payoff with nanotechnology and bionics.
really old news ;)
3 And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.
4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces.
8 Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.
10 They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Just over 50 Merkava were hit with anti-tank weapons. Out of that 14 were destroyed and those required multiple hits. Most crew casualties and injuries were top down hits on light upper spots and a large number were in the driver section (sucks for them)or results of the shockwave of the hit. The RPG-29 turned out to have more bark than bite against the MBT's but proved very effective against APC's and other vehicles. The Russian made Kornets and Metis (Russian versions of the Milan both man portable) account for the most damage done and yet they still needed multiple hits. The anti-tank mines were successful against older version mk II's which didn't have the underbelly armor like the mk 4's unless it was jury rigged. Other than that all other tanks damaged were brought back online after short repairs. Throw in the new Trophy anti-anti-tank missile system thats being developed and suddenly things dont look so bad for the future. Only poor nations are still using reactive armor on their current MBT's (older versions and APCs use it much more often). Armor when used properly is very effective for any terrain. Its a matter of using them correctly as are anti-tank rockets (Iranian training paid off it looks like). The Vietnamese used armor against two American firebases and wiped them out. The third firebase was ready and responded with their own armor and arty and routed the NVA. The current Iraq conflict is an excellent example of how armor can be used effectively in conjunction with dismounted troops in an urban terrain. There are plenty of examples of why armor isn't going away anytime soon and plenty of reasons for it to stay. If the Trophy or Iron Fist systems turn out to be half as good as they say then someone will have to reinvent the anti-tank systems. Lets not forget that little 6 day war when the arabs brought their own tanks either. Thats still always a real threat. As to the autonomous tanks I dont think we'll be seeing anything like that for a very very long time. Any unmanned vehicle is subject to being jammed or recieving interferance. Heck there's even a chance the encryption on the transmission can be cracked and the vehicle turned on its users. Alot of IED's in Iraq are jammed on a regular basis and easily I might add. So unless someone has Skynet in their back pocket or a few thousand miles of coax cable laying around I wouldn't count on it.
It is often ironic that those that define others as lemmings are often themselves lemmings dancing to the latest fad.
It would not make any difference. The puppet masters pulling the strings of Hezbollah from Iran are not interested in anything except the complete destruction of Israel and they carefully shelter their foot soldiers in the Madrassas and Mosques, channeling their angers, desires, and fears into an unquenchable hatred of Israel, and all the while carefully controlling information about the outside world so that anything which does not fit into their brainwashing program is NOT seen by their pool of suicide bombers and fighters or if it is seen they are conditioned to dismiss it as "enemy propaganda" and part of world-wide "Zionist conspiracy". You cannot reason with these people and the people that you can reason with are too terrified by the terrorists, who would kill the moderate Muslims and their families without a second thought, to do anything about it.
Take a look at this article on micro turbines. Another option would be super capacitors. It also doesn't need significant range or endurance. It could be deployed from a UAV like an ultra-smart bomb, from quite close to the intended target. It could even glide to its destination. Since it doesn't have to be shaped anything like a real hornet (and some of the largest wasps are classified as hornets), it could also be quite large.
"So let me get this straight. Israel has never done anything wrong, ever"
Nice straw-man attack. I've never seen any of those of us who defend the Israelis' right to exist ever say anything like this. You are making this one up.
"Anyway historically jews and muslims have gotten along very well"
Yes, they got along very well as long as the Jews converted to Islam when asked, or threw themselves on the swords of the Muslim invaders, or as long as the Jews never objected when being forced to follow Muslim religious laws imposed on them. Yes, just like "historically, blacks and whites in the old American South have gotten along very well".
What explains your mischaractarization of history? Ignorance, or a general hatred of Jews?
Where were you when the voynix came?
"The world would indeed be a better place if you got rid of the [Jews]"
I cleaned up the code-word you used. How do you propose getting rid of them this time? Gas chambers? Or will mere bullets do? At least you are honest in that your hatred of Israel and your lies about history are part of the general idea of "getting rid" of Jews.
Where were you when the voynix came?
I wonder how much more hasbara is coming my way here?
1. The historic facts anyone can verify with a brain and an internet connection.
Be sure to look up "Haganah" when you do.
2. While I am not my wife is jewish and so are therefore my children. I can't say
that I am antisemite, especially because she's sephardic and therefore
semitic as opposed to the azhkenazi "ruling" contingent in Israel which is anything
but semite.
You reaction is the expected knee jerk to muddle the issue by softly moaning
"antisemitism! antisemitism!". While you're showing off your fine knee I think I'm
providing some interesting pointers for people to follow up on.
Why not just learn "live and let live"? There's no need to support the idea of the elimination of the Israelis.
Where were you when the voynix came?
...since the israelis are the terrorists, finally they are going to fight themselves, and allow the poor Palestinians to return to the land that was stolen from them by these Zionist Nazi-racists.
Just over 50 Merkava were hit with anti-tank weapons. Out of that 14 were destroyed and those required multiple hits. Most crew casualties and injuries were top down hits on light upper spots and a large number were in the driver section (sucks for them)or results of the shockwave of the hit. The RPG-29 turned out to have more bark than bite against the MBT's but proved very effective against APC's and other vehicles.
I had read that over 50 Merkava were destroyed or disabled, but that didn't specify by type, so I'd believe that the rest were the result of mines.
I maintain that is a very good kill count for the RPGs, and an eye opener for IDF and others relying on similar armor. The light spots on top are exactly why tanks are vulnerable when their enemy gets the high ground. The RPG-29 and RPG-7 for that matter are devastating against APCs, which is why you don't hear about the Bradley in Iraq any more. The Merkava is designed to be an APC itself, giving full tank armor protection to the soldiers, which is why these results are significant.
Throw in the new Trophy anti-anti-tank missile system thats being developed and suddenly things dont look so bad for the future.
I've got to admit point defence systems like that have a lot of potential. I'm going to go with history on this one and say weaponry will adapt.
Only poor nations are still using reactive armor on their current MBT's
U.S. Army and IDF are poor, got it.
Its a matter of using them correctly as are anti-tank rockets (Iranian training paid off it looks like). The Vietnamese used armor against two American firebases and wiped them out.
Yes, the Vietnamese didn't have a lot of tanks, particularly the guerilla fighters, and thus they could catch the army off-guard and underarmed by suddenly attacking with them. That is one of many ways tanks can be used well.
There are plenty of examples of why armor isn't going away anytime soon and plenty of reasons for it to stay.
Of course. Like I've been saying, it isn't like this hasn't happened before, and armor is still around. I'm suggesting that counting on the defense your tank provides you in situations where that armor is tactically weak isn't a good strategy, and IDF may want to look at other avenues for similar conflicts in the future.
On the other hand tanks are a good investment for the day when, say, Israel got in a conventional war with Syria.
I'm just saying don't choose your tactics around your weapon, choose tactics and weapons together that work best in the situation.
The current Iraq conflict is an excellent example of how armor can be used effectively in conjunction with dismounted troops in an urban terrain.
Hmm, I was going to say the opposite. The Abrams has had a very high survivability rate in Iraq because the insurgents are primarily armed with RPG-7s. Even still a number have been disabled by RPG hits -- several hits, obviously -- which demonstrates how a narrow corridor lined with many high positions from which to fire downward at the tank's vulnerable spots isn't exactly an ideal scenario.
The Abrams is a huge tank to put in a city. It blocks a street, can't move quickly, can't respond quickly if it takes fire, and certainly can't respond with precision. Actually, since as I was saying earlier the BFV hasn't stood up well, I may be arguing for something between them, with MBT armor but much lighter weapons and capabilities for urban warfare.
As to the autonomous tanks I dont think we'll be seeing anything like that for a very very long time. Any unmanned vehicle is subject to being jammed or recieving interferance. Heck there's even a chance the encryption on the transmission can be cracked and the vehicle turned on its users. Alot of IED's in Iraq are jammed on a regular basis and easily I might add.
Yeah, it's funny how they went back to low-tech wires because they couldn't be jammed. Now the same vulnerabilities exist in the UAV and the remote control robots being used by the army, but the conditions are different. I agree autonomous tanks seems unlikely.
The enemies of Democracy are
"Nice straw-man attack. I've never seen any of those of us who defend the Israelis' right to exist ever say anything like this."
You said israel is hated because they are jews and won't convert to islam. This indicates that you can not fathom any other reason why israel might be hated.
So I will ask you again. Why do you think israel is hated by it's neighbors and dislikes by virtually every other country in the world?
"Yes, they got along very well as long as the Jews converted to Islam when asked, or threw themselves on the swords of the Muslim invaders, or as long as the Jews never objected when being forced to follow Muslim religious laws imposed on them. Yes, just like "historically, blacks and whites in the old American South have gotten along very well".
Look up what was happening during the inquisition regarding muslims and jews. Learn some history for gods sake.
evil is as evil does
When someone engages in Jew-bashing and justifies all sort of antisemitic atrocities (imagine presenting King Abdullah's attempted justification for crushing the Jews and not realizing that it only exposes the deep-seated antisemitism of Israel's enemies!) and stands later says "Sieg Heil", there isn't much irony present. It's just a summation of what came before. Why not learn an attitude of "live and let live"? The Israelis have a right to exist.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Hey look, it's a straw man. I think he's trying to argue a point...
Oh, and how is King Abdullah's essay a "justification for crushing Jews" when a) it was pointing out the influx of Jewish settlers to Palestine when they (the Jews) were a minority there at the time and b) it was written in a time when the Arab world was the only place Jews could go to shelter from the onslaught of European antipathy towards them? I see no "crushing" there, other than a statement saying something like "please don't invade our country, how would you react?"
My friend, you need to learn some debating skills. You can't argue a point with a counter point that is irrelevant. It's like trying to fight fire with nunchucks. Oh, and if you call me an anti-semite in replying to this I will consider that to be a concession on your part that you have no real point other than the stock standard brow beatings pro-Zionists are so good at.
I hate printers.
"it was written in a time when the Arab world was the only place Jews could go to shelter from the onslaught of European antipathy towards them? "
Sort of self-inflicted. The major Palestinian leader of the time, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was so closely aligned with Nazi Germany that he arranged it so that Palestinians went to help the Nazi efforts in Eastern Europe in actual military units.
"....stock standard brow beatings pro-Zionists are so good at...."
Talk about straw man arguments!. I'm pro any nation's right to exist. If someone was calling for the elimination of the Palestinians, I'd argue against them (and I have).
Where were you when the voynix came?
Just out of interest, why is it that everyone seems to think that by default Israel should exist? I'm not arguing that it shouldn't, I was just wondering why a country that did not exist more than about 60 years ago and who's population has no real connection with the land before the 40s has a de facto right to exist there to the exclusion of the people there before. I mean if Jews had a right to claim land from anyone, surely the Germans or the Italians should have been forced to give up land instead?
Lets say Japan occupied California in the 40s, and did not surrender it. I'm pretty sure that by today, Washington would still not say something like "Meh, it's been long enough, lets just forget the whole thing."
Just askin'.
I hate printers.
"and who's population has no real connection with the land before the 40s"
In the older/earlier population, there was a significant proportion who was either (1) the older indiginous Jewish population, which was always subject to Muslim oppression,and thus had dwindled a lot but always had a real connection to the land and (2) the settlers who had arrived PRIOR to the 1940s by buying land the proper way from Arabs/etc who lived there.
Also, what does "the land" mean? Just Israel, or the nearby area? Do you include another significant part of the Jewish population who were "encouraged" to leave neighboring Muslim countries and move to Israel?
"Lets say Japan occupied California in the 40s, and did not surrender it. I'm pretty sure that by today, Washington would still not say something like "Meh, it's been long enough, lets just forget the whole thing."
That analogy would be valid if we added other factors, such as the Japanese being purged and expelled from Asia, and also a situation where the Japanese in the rest of the US were specifically treated as criminals and denied basic freedoms. Also, to be comparable to the Israel situation, you'd have large numbers of Japanese arriving and settling by legally buying land, only to face having their land stolen by racist anti-Japanese Californians. Finally, California would have had to have consistent Japanese population going back into pre-history. Then, the idea of California as a sort of "reservation" for the Japanese would be comparable to Israel being the one place in the Middle East where one can be Jewish OR Muslim OR anything else in whatever way they want without fear of oppression.
One would imagine that if the Muslim world (especially Israel's Arab neighbors) was a secular place where people were treated with human decency regardless of their faith, and that they didn't have the Muslim laws that punished people just for being Jewish, there'd be no need for a special reservation on a very tiny part of the land. But no, most of the Muslim world has always been rather antisemitic.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"I see no "crushing" there, other than a statement saying something like "please don't invade our country, how would you react?"
King Abdullah does not mention that much of this "invasion" was settlers legally buying (not stealing) land, and the "reaction" was in the form of genocidal pogroms. Sort of like whites in LA getting upset with all the people from Mexico arriving and buying houses and paying apartment rent, so these whites decide to start killing Mexicans and stealing their property. That's a reasonable reaction just as incidents such as the Hebron pogrom were reasonable reactions to peaceful Jewish settlers.
It was also mentioned elsewhere that King Abdullah said in his speech(?) that the holy sites should be open to ALL faiths. What he did not mention is that under the administration of his government (Jordan), Jews were denied entry to the holy sites, and Jordan even actively desecreated Jewish graveyards. He certainly did not practice what he preached.
Only when Jerusalem was freed from control by oppressive theocracies did all descration stop, and the rights of ALL faiths to the holy sites have been respected. You can't deny that Israel's respect to the rights of all worshippers to access the holy sites has been exemplary. This page details how King Adbdullah I really felt about decency in such matters of respect as grave-sites. He even instituted a policy where "Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor ----despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city."
I see "crushing" there.
Where were you when the voynix came?
When people who are still alive who have been the victims of the acts in question, reparations are due. Perhaps extending to the immediate children and grandchildren of those people.
Sorry, but I don't buy this. People should be responsible for their own actions, yes, but not for their ancestors' actions. I had no control over anything my parents, grandparents, etc. did during their lifetimes.
This whole issue of Israel being "stolen" from the Arabs happened 60+ years ago, some of it before WWII and some after. Yes, some people may still be alive today who were alive then. But it's highly unlikely that any of these elderly people actually had a hand in these actions (whether or not they were wrong), because at the time they would have been children or teenagers, or in their 20s at most. The people who controlled the politics at the time are all long since dead.
If you keep trying to punish people for things that their country (mainly during their parents' generation) did, you'll end up with a repeat of Nazi Germany.
I'm sorry, but genocidal regimes don't believe in that.
Dude, you are so full of misinformation its not even worth discussing this with you.
I hate printers.
I see that all you can do is offer hollow insult rather than point out one thing I got wrong. Perhaps you are upset that I blew your Japan in California analogy out of the water by bringing in the missing situations into the analogy (especially the part that made it analogous to the persecution Jewish people suffer in the "Muslim" world). You really should learn tolerance, even for the lowly Israeli.
Where were you when the voynix came?
I am not against criticism. However, I am against invalid and hypocritical criticism.
You said: "Mr.Naz never said Israel doesn't have the right to exist"
You missed it when Mr. Naz gave a tip of the hat to the pro-genocide view when he said "Just out of interest, why is it that everyone seems to think that by default Israel should exist?". He did not specifically say that the Israelis did not exist, but he called into "question" the idea that they should be allowed to.
"Its like "You don't like us? Here's a missile for you!"."
Is it really an intent to mislead when you left out the "You blew up a bus" or "You keep launching rockets at our houses" from the middle of it.
"In the end, my dear Krell, I just think you are completely blinded by the pre-chewed spin-doctored propaganda crap..."
Perhaps you carefully skipped around the code word of the "Jewish controlled media"? I doubt that very much. I don't think that you buy into that idea. Rather, you have just vented a version of the lame old "you do not share my beliefs, therefore you are brainwashed" argument.
"You have extreme prejudice against anyone non-jewish and you don't even have to try and hide it, we can all see it."
A gross mischaracterization of the fact that I want the Israelis to exist just like the other nations in the area. Sorry for making you sick by standing up the the varying degrees of antisemitism shown so well with Mr. Naz's why should the israelis even exist question. You need to learn some tolerance.
"This is truly sad because nobody will even be able to have an objective unbiased conversation with you about anything Israel related"
I easily have such conversations with people who don't color everything with hatred of Jews, and don't present lies like the one you did above in which you said that Israel only fires rockets at people just because these people dislike Israelis (and never instigate violence against Israel).
"everyone is anti-semite and a zionist-basher and a nazi"
Not everyone. Only those who express antisemitic views. Thank you also for proving Godwin's law: you are the first one to mention anything about the modern views being argued here as being just like Nazis. (I only mentioned Nazis prior to this in the proper context of actual Nazi Germany's specific involvement in a limited historical time).
"you believe that because the jewish people that settled there were victims of crimes against humanity by the nazi movement, it gives them an excuse against any crime they commit towards anyone"
That's not my belief. I never said anything like that. However, this is now "par for the course" considering that you like to make things up.
"I understand some comments sound anti-semite or prejudicial and you are only trying to defend yourself"
So to you the comments like Mr. Naz's one that found the existence of Israelis something to be "questioned", (and the AC who told me that all Israeli civilians are war criminals and must be eliminated) only "sound" antisemitic?
"...and you just treat everybody the same way"
Well, that is a good summary of my view on the Middle East issues. I support the rights of all involved nations/peoples to exsit. This includes, of course, Lebanon and Syria and the others, but it also includes both Palestine and Israel. I've argued many times with hardline Israelis who want the Palestinians wiped out. They actually used a version of your claim "don't agree with me? then you are brainwashed" claim and said that I disagreed with these hardliners because I was brainwashed by Arab power and control in the media. I also support the rights of Israelis to exist when people like Mr. Naz sickeningly question why they should be allowed to exist "by default".
"In short, you just suck man"
This sort of debate tactic typically doesn't make someone look too smart, but it is a step up from the straw-man attack
Where were you when the voynix came?
You, as an individual, do not bear responsbility for your ancestors actions.
However, people often act not as individuals but as nation-states (and other organizations) that outlive individual people. Those nations bear collective responsibility for their past actions (just as they gain collective benefit).
I, personally, bear no responsibility for the U.S. violation of treaties with Native nations, I didn't make those decisions. But the U.S. is responsbile for those violations, and as a citizen, I bear a share of the responsibility that my nation bears. Practically, that means that it's going to be my tax dollars that pay for reparations that justice requires.
But it is my citizenship, not my ancestry, that roots this responsibility.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
"I'm sorry, but genocidal regimes don't believe in that."
True. Genocidal regimes don't believe in "live and let live". The current Palestinian government surely counts as one of these: its charter explicitly calls for extermination of Jews and Israelis. Israel, interestingly enough, has never been such a regime, as it has always accepted the rights of Palestinians to live. Even during the darkist Likud days.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"Practically, that means that it's going to be my tax dollars that pay for reparations that justice requires."
I'm curious what this means. Does it mean a big cash payment to every Indian? Or does it mean making sure that treaties are honored?
Where were you when the voynix came?
"In my opinion, the Israelis (and their British and American enablers) need to invest in paying compensation to those from whom they stole the land to create their nation.
I actually favor something like this, but it would be very complicated and involve long court processes. There are people that willingly abandoned their homes in order to "clear the battlefield" for a combined Arab army that tried to wipe out the Israelis once and for all early on. Surely these people who left their homes in willing participation in attempted genocide do not deserve them back. There are also many claiming "right of return" who never lived in Israel or any of the territories.
Once you weed these out, there are indeed people with legitimate grievances. I know someone personally (an Arab American) who had his parent's home in Jerusalem "house-jacked" by Jewish settlers. These are the ones who deserve compensation.
"Peace is not going to be possible until those crimes are acknowledged and some reparations made."
It might help, but there are people there who hate the Jews just for being Jewish, and this goes back long before the "Zionists." People like this tend to run the governments and the powerful religious heirarchy in several of the nations involved. To them, such an idea is not a solution, but merely a stepping stone to elimination of the Israelis.
Where were you when the voynix came?
In the case of treaties, it means that the treaties must be honored, and that payment to the Native nations - not directly to individual citizens of those nations, but to tribal governments - should be made in reparation for the harm caused by years of violations.
There are other cases in which direct harm was done to individual persons - Native children taken away from their parents, or women pushed into sterilization procedures. Compensatory payments should be made directly to those people.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Blame hezbolla for hiding in civilian areas. More to the point, hezbola should have respected international borders themselves and we could have avoided that whole bloody mess.
Cliff Claven
K.E.G. Party Chairman
Founding Leader of: Koncerned for Egalitarin Governance
It is not important what Israel pays lip service to, it's what they do and that is mind-shatteringly
... because they were having a picnic on Gaza beach.
e lated&search= Here. Israeli soldiers shooting unarmed ...
gruesome. I'm sure they would prefer to do their genocide in private without the world watching but
with the internet... I just went to youtube and this is what I immediately came up with and I wasn't even
looking hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WaCJn4hdjc Here. Watch this little girl scream in grief after an Israeli
gun boat had just wiped out her entire family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEv-HSz2Zj4&mode=r
protesting women.
Since you're so upset here Krell, I'll assume you're an Israeli and if so it sucks to be you because you're
at risk of losing life and limb everyday you get on a bus or go to a public place.. Not because you're
jewish but simply because yet one more Palestinian has decided life is not worth living without the
friends and family your government killed in the barbed wire walled-in in hell they call Gaza and therefore
got on the bus with you with twenty pounds of semtex strapped to his belly.
No, it's just that in my experience if a person has the combination of adamant belief in inaccurate information as well as acrimonious self-righeousness, there is no point in engaging them in discussion.
By way of example, you seem to hold some grudge against the Muslim people, which is rather strange given that a) the only time the Jewish people have enjoyed protection and prosperity under a non-Jewish, non-secular government was under the Ottoman government and b) persecution of Jewish people has long been at the hands of Europeans and Christians. The Arab world reacted to a huge influx of Jewish migrants in the 30s and 40s, as well as the creation of a Jewish state in the middle of Arabia, where it had no logical reason to be. The Arabs owed nothing to the Jewish people for the holocaust, why make them pay? Given the support the US gives to Israel, why not just make Israel in the US? That'd put an end to the Middle East dilema pretty quickly. Incidentally, you did not "blow my argument out of the water", you simply played the all-too-familiar "Jews are victims therefore need special treatment" card, which doesn't fly with me. Anyone who suffers should be helped. When I see help going to famine in Africa or disease in Asia then I'll review my stance, but until then there are people more in need. Israel is doing just fine. You can say what you want about this, but no amount of arguing or twisting or wheeling will change the fact that millions suffer and die while the rest of the world dresses up their own agendas as the most important. I have written about this before, but somehow, I don't think you'll care about the plight of anyone who is not Israeli.
I have many Jewish friends, and even they will admit that current belligerence aside, their people have historically been most well-received by Muslims than any other group. Furthermore, the only real time Jews, Christians and Muslims have lived together peacefully was under Ottoman governance.
Finally, don't give me this "lowly Israeli" BS. Israelis are not lowly or in need of sympathy. With the 4th largest military in the world and the recipient of more military support and US "Aid" than Africa, Asia and indeed the rest of the world cobined, the Israelis are neither "lowly" nor are they in need of anyone's sympathy or aid. Hell, Israel gets more out of the US taxpayer than any single US state.
I hate printers.
There's also evidence that Israel planned the attack way before last summer; http://www.coanews.org/tiki-read_article.php?arti
Res publica non dominetur
"By way of example, you seem to hold some grudge against the Muslim people"
...and it would satisfy the demands of those who want to get rid of Middle Eastern Jews once and for all.
No, I do not. I however reject oppressive theocracy, and believe in tolerance for different faiths (or lack of faith).
"which is rather strange given that a) the only time the Jewish people have enjoyed protection and prosperity under a non-Jewish, non-secular government was under the Ottoman government"
Did you know that under the Ottomans, the Jews were forced to follow Muslim laws and submit to Muslim authorities? Did you know that they also had to pay a special tax just for not being Muslim?.
"and b) persecution of Jewish people has long been at the hands of Europeans and Christians."
That is only complete when you mention "...and Muslims" at the end.
The Arab world reacted to a huge influx of Jewish migrants in the 30s and 40s, as well as the creation of a Jewish state in the middle of Arabia, where it had no logical reason to be.
That was the most logical place for it to be. However, it was not in Arabia. Arabia is to the southeast of the area. It was in the Eastern Mediterranean area. You also didn't mention that Jews fled persecution in nearby Muslim countries in order to move to Israel. To some degree, they were forced out.
"The Arabs owed nothing to the Jewish people for the holocaust, why make them pay?"
The Palestinians participated in the Holocaust
"Given the support the US gives to Israel, why not just make Israel in the US? That'd put an end to the Middle East dilema pretty quickly."
"Incidentally, you did not "blow my argument out of the water", you simply played the all-too-familiar "Jews are victims therefore need special treatment""
Actually, I don't think they deserve special treatment. They deserve equal treatment. If we can have a Palestine for the Palestinians, a Syria for the Syrians, a Jordan for the Hashemites, an Egypt for the Egyptians, then why not have an Israel for the Israelis? Yes, "Anyone who suffers should be helped."
"You can say what you want about this, but no amount of arguing or twisting or wheeling will change the fact that millions suffer and die while the rest of the world dresses up their own agendas as the most important."
There's a lot of wisdom in that statement, actually. I have written about this before [mrnaz.com], but somehow, I don't think you'll care about the plight of anyone who is not Israeli.
I argue equally vehemently at those who "question" the right of a Palestinian state (and by extension Palestinians) do exist. If you had someone who, say, was insisting that Iran be wiped off the map, I'd object there too.
"Furthermore, the only real time Jews, Christians and Muslims have lived together peacefully was under Ottoman governance."
The analogy of the Jim Crow south is again quite appropriate. There have been other instances of a foreign occupying empire instituting peace ("Pax Britannica"). But is that justice?
"Israelis are not lowly or in need of sympathy."
There are several nations out to exterminate them. Any time such an atrocity is directed at someone, they earn my sympathy.
Where were you when the voynix came?
". I'm sure they would prefer to do their genocide in private without the world watching but with the internet."
You have it backwards. You blame the victims of genocide, and actually have the gall to call them the perpetrators of it. It's pretty clear when you look at two competiting entities (one wants to exterminate the other, and the other entity accepts the right of the other one to exist) which one is engaging in genocide.
Where were you when the voynix came?
A nation is its people. If you want to eliminate a nation, then you are asking for genocide. You are indeed "pro-genocide" if you are defending another's call to eliminate a nation.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Yes, this kind of thing happens when an army uses a school as a military base.
Where were you when the voynix came?
from the article: "Egeland and Freedland's criticism seems to amount to little more than blaming Hizbullah fighters for not standing in open fields waiting to be picked off by Israeli tanks and war planes"
That is a valid criticism. Hesbollah made a conscious decision to use civilians as a sort of armor. Worse yet, they made a conscious decision to invade and bombard Israel. This latter one is more important: the real cause of the war. The article attemps to justify Hesbollah's actions by calling it "An army defending itself from invasion" which is intentionally misleading in that it leaves out that Hesbollah started this with an unprovoked invasion.
also from the article: "Although we should not romanticise Hizbullah, equally we should not be quick to demonise it either"
Such sympathy for an army created in Iran in 1982 for the sole purpose of institaging aggression against Israel. Here are some quotes from the Hesbollah leader that are very anti-semitic and/or demand genocide:
" Its destiny is manifested in our motto: 'Death to Israel.'",
"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."
"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."
Who is doing the demonizing? Does Hesbollah demonize itself with its own horrific goals and actions? (from this
What sort of well-meaning person would even consider "romanticizing" an organization that states that it is out to get rid of all Jews worldwide?
Where were you when the voynix came?
Yes, under Ottoman rule Muslims were citizens by default, as the Ottoman Empire was non-secular. Non-citizens, as is the case in all modern states too, had to pay tax if they wanted to benefit by living in that country. Today, even visiting, many countries require that the visitor put up a bond while they are there, and pay a fee for the right to visit. As an Australian for example, I have to pay $90AUD for the right to just travel to Brazil. Under Ottoman rule, with the dhimmi tax, there was no problem with being there illegally. There was no INS carting off familes upon discovery. Anyone who was there and could pay the tax, was taxed. Muslims paid a similar but different "tax" called "zakat". Between the dhimmi tax and zakat, no foreigner was ever turned away, or allowed to starve. I find it odd that people think the dhimmi tax is so strange, given the brutal treatment foreigners are treated in modern states. Spend a day with the INS to see what I mean. For even worse, have a look at the way the Australian govt has been treating refugees recently. There is talk of a giant floating prison made out of a decommissioned oil tanker to detain them. Personally, I'll take the dhimmi tax for not being Musim over being locked up in the hold of an oil tanker, or dumped in the desert just south of the Mexican border, thankyou very much.
So what you're saying is that Jews have been rejected everywhere, by just about everyone. Does that mean there is a problem with everyone else, or a problem with Jews?
In any case, most of the Jewish people I know seem to be of the opinion that the Ottoman age was one of the best and most prosperous times in Jewish history. This coming from them, not me. They also do not support Israel's policy of shoot first ask questions later.
I am not against Israel or Jews, I am against Zionism, which is essentially the Jewish KKK. Seehere for an example. (Wait! Before you jump on your high horse, I am aware that there are websites for all sides of any argument, which is why I said "for an example". I am not citing this as proof of my stance, merely as an indication that there is merit to it.)
So? If it solves everyone's issues then whats the problem? If the US loves Israel so much, why not give them Ohio or Virginia to live in? They'd be happier there, the US wouldn't have such a long distance to ship tanks and bombs so they'd save on transport costs and the Arabs would be free to do as they pleased. Also, the Palestinians have been there far longer unless you dig into biblical stories.
Israel gets more "special treatment" in terms of military support and financial support than the entire developing world, and yet still cries poor. The word "equal" rings hollow coming from a supporter of Israel.
Also, Israel is out of place in that sentence in that a) the majority of its people didn't live there even a generation ago and b) until the 1940s it did not even exist as a country. One cannot simply say that Foo has an inherent right to be, when Foo was taken out of Bar belonging to someone else. No law on earth would give property rights to a trespasser simply because he managed to be there by
I hate printers.
"Does that mean there is a problem with everyone else, or a problem with Jews?"
This "question" is similar to an argument I've seen, where someone says that there has to be some good reason for there to be antisemitism throughout history, and perhaps the Jews should be blamed for it. I'm not putting words in your mouth or saying that this is your argument. But it is similar. To answer? There is a problem with the Jews. It's not that they are doing anything wrong to anyone. It is the problem that, as a culture and nation, they refuse to die. They have persisted while other groups subjected to such persecution have completely vanished.
"Have you ever been this vocal about blacks, Kosovans, sweat shop workers, the homeless, Rwandans, Ethiopians, AIDS victims or any other group of people struggling at a time when the amount of money spent on killing could give every man, woman and child a life of luxury?"
To varying degrees. Especially, you were not around when I was arguing to defend the Kosovars.
"I deliberately ignored your link, as that web site is a well known source of pro-Israel propaganda"
That's a typical use of the word "propaganda" to mean "information or facts you dislike and would really not hear". If you had gone to the link and seen the sources, you would have found that the quotes came from places like mainstream newspapers in Lebanon.
Here's my parting shot: maybe someday you will learn tolerance, rather than tip the hat toward genocidal ideas such as "questioning" the right of a nation to exist.
Where were you when the voynix came?
How is this a troll? This is not only the truth, but also my genuine opinion. Some people shouldn't be allowed to moderate.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"You have it backwards. You blame the victims of genocide, and actually have the gall to call them the perpetrators of it."
You mean the twenty year old concentration camp survivor sniper who pulled the trigger on a palestinian 12-year old girl?
Hezbollah was created in Lebanon to resist the Israeli occupation. And yes, they were trained by Iranians. Now, if you assume the common Zionist position that "the land of Israel" is between "the two waters" (as represented in the flag), it of course follows that Lebanese have no right on that land and Hezbollah has indeed "created [..] for the sole purpose of institaging aggression against Israel".
That said, Lebanon was doing a formidable reconstuction job before last summer. It was only a matter of time before the grassroot support for Hezbollah withered. In that sense, Israel made a strategic mistake because they followed Washington orders. Hmmm...Their motto is a Quranic verse which can be translated as "Those in the party of God will not be defeated".
Anyway, anti-semitism has never been stronger in the Islamic world altogether (I have heard even more inflammatory remarks in mosques across the Arab world). While I deplore such gratuitous agression, I can't help but wonder why it is happening. Are Islamic leaders inherently anti-semitic, or is it response to decades of occupation? Either way, I don't see Israel making it past this century if it continues to behave the way it always did. One thing is for sure; It won't go down quietly. And on the day of the "death pang", God help us all!
The other scenario - though less likely given Liebermann's appointment - is when Arabs become the majority in Israel (which is bound to happen within decades unless Israel preemptively revokes their citizenship). I don't see the kids who witnessed the violence perpetrated against their parents to be very forgiving. Worse, I don't think they will have enough judgement and might just end up blaming the whole Jewish race. But then again, they probably already are...
Res publica non dominetur
The charter of the current Palestinian government calls for the extermination of the people of the Israeli nation. That's a demand for genocide. The charter of the current Israeli government now (as it has for some time) recognizes the right of the Palestinian nation to exist. That's not genocide.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Congratulations. You got modified as a +2 Troll. That's quite an accomplishment.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Apparently for some reason you equate the dissolution of the legal entity "The State of Israel"
with the deaths of millions of people. The Germans have survived the deaths and births of more
such legal entities than you can shake a stick at. Surely, you're just as hardy a people.
"Apparently for some reason you equate the dissolution of the legal entity "The State of Israel" with the deaths of millions of people"
This is not "some reason" It comes from reading the "Death to the Jews, starting with Israel" charters and speeches of Israel's most bitter enemies. That's only what the Palestinian government, Hesbollah, and the government of Iran want. Even when they don't want to kill off the Israelis, they want them "ethnically cleansed" from the area: something that few Israelis would a agree with. As a result, those with the task of loading the Israelis in the cattle-cars to ship them out would have to kill huge numbers of Israelis fighting to stay.
The difference with Germany was that you didn't have to deal with genocidal maniacs (like Israel has to deal with) dedicated to wiping out the Germans. Again, why not learn tolerance? Accept the rights of the Syrians, Palestinians, Egyptians, Israelis and Jordanians all to exist?
Where were you when the voynix came?
" I don't see Israel making it past this century if it continues to behave the way it always did"
That's the only reason it has survived this long: by fighting back and resisting the forces of genocide arrayed against it. If they behaved differently, the Israelis would quickly become nothing more than ashes and a memory.
"Anyway, anti-semitism has never been stronger in the Islamic world altogether "
It has always been rather strong. Early on, Muhammed ordered the sizable Jewish population of what is now Saudi Arabia exterminated. This was a sizable community of many thousands of people. Ever since then, it has been pretty much illegal to be Jewish in (what is now) Saudi Arabia. Are Islamic leaders inherently anti-semitic? Probably: there is much in their faith, as written in the Q'uran, that demands oppression of Jews and others. It is not a response to "decades of occupation", since they brought the occupation on themselves by attacking Israel.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"Death to the Jews, starting with Israel"
I have no idea what the Palestinian Govt, Hizbullah or the Iranian Government wants, but I can sure guess
what 99% of all Palestinians, Lebanese and Iranians and Israelis do not want: Missiles crashing
through their living rooms and exploding in their bedrooms. You will find people who often see that
happen in their lives to resort to cruder rethoric or their leaders may attempt to capitalize on that.
"Antisemitism" is the fuel that feeds the Moloch's fire here and without that and the constant pressure from
inside and outside its borders, this little South Africa reloaded with all its segregation and homelands would have
exploded long ago. So why not learn tolerance indeed? Some time ago I heard about Jews and Arabs demonstrating
hand in hand for peace in Israel. They reacted by firing live rounds into the demonstration not caring who
the hit, Jew or Arab, because they certainly can't have that. It'd be the Death of Israel.
I have studied Muhammad's life and can't honestly see what makes you think he can be descibed as inherently anti-Semitic. For the anecdote, Arabs are of Semitic heritage themselves.
He indeed did order the killing of male adults in a Jewish tribe that betrayed him. I'll redirect you to the work of Karen Armstrong on the issue if you wanna know more. http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/ka
You have to understand that the Quran explicitly orders Muslims to respect Jews and Christians and "only treat them with the better" (literal translation).
What seems to be also missing from the picture portrayed in the western media, are the thousands of Jews who've been living peacefully with Muslims - from Morocco all the way to Iran - for centuries. And we all know about the Roman, Spaniard and German sad treatment they received in Europe.
I have read the Quran many times and cannot think of any verses that could be interpreted as demanding oppression of the Jews. Please illuminate me on that.
Propaganda has been agressive on both sides. I cannot deny the ever-increasing hatred of the Jews among Muslims (or other people who watch the daily carnage in Gaza). Only a genuine will to learn about the other can help mitigate the feeling.
As for Saudi Arabia, the current rulers (and by extention rules) do not have much legitimacy and by no mean represent Islam's point of view. I'm pretty sure the whole "Jewish ban" is post-Jewish-colonization-of-the-land-of-Palestine though. Saudi Arabia should be treated as an exception. Even Afghanistan under Talibans had synagogues!
Res publica non dominetur
"You have to understand that the Quran explicitly orders Muslims to respect Jews and Christians and "only treat them with the better" (literal translation)."
I looked and found about 10 negative comments concerning Jews in the Q'uran. I can list and link to these if you wish. The points are: there's plenty of fuel there for anti-semitic demagogues to use, even if lines such as you quote contradict it. There are also other contradictions: The line "Let there be no compulsion in religion" contradicts the idea elsewhere that "Sharia is to have control over every aspect of life" and that non-Muslims should be subject to Muslim courts.
Is having a contradictory holy book unique to Islam? Not at all. The problem is a lack of secularism in the Muslim world, and too many nations force the Q'uran on disagreeing Muslims and onto non-Muslims alike. Then there are the countries that have a death penalty on the books for Muslims who change to another faith (but never for non-Muslims who change to Islam).
Another problem is that Islam is the only major religion founding by a rapacious maurauding warlord. The big difference with Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, and Napoleon is that these other three men did not create a religion to help hold their empires together. You have to really twist the words of Christ and the Buddha to get justification for conquest and conversion by the sword (and yes, many did do this). With Muhammad, there isn't much twisting necessary. The Jews were not the only group to have to suffer to ravages of this totalitarian-minded empire. Other groups simply vanished. The Zoroastrians (the indiginous religion in Iran) are only barely tolerated.
Have empires done this in the name of Christ? Yes. However, there were widespread and varied movements toward secularization and enlightenment in Christendom long ago, which moved from being less tolerant than the Islamic world to being more tolerant the the Islamic world.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Actually there seems to be a lot of jewish-arab cooperation going on, just type
8 506/
the keywords jew arab joint protest into google...
http://gush-shalom.org/actions/27demo_eng.html
Here's one where the Israeli state also attacked jews:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/116198
It was the stormiest demonstration in Bil'in for some time. Clouds of tear gas, salvoes of stun grenades were showered on the 300 demonstrators - Palestinians, Israelis and internationals - who marched again to protest against the wall in this village, as they have done every Friday for than 20 months...
No life fire though, but I recall reading on indymedia maybe two or three years back
about a similar joint jewish-arab protest where the Israeli police opened fire with regular
guns.
Of course, if taken out of context, one might twist the real meaning of verses. I'm afraid you're mistaken in here. Nowhere in the teachings of Muhammad (which is extensively documented) does it say that non-Muslims should be subjected to Sharia law. After the death of the Prophet, scholars started coming up with their own interpretations and that is where the Sharia, as we know it, originated from.
The Quran is hardly contradictory. It came down in bits and pieces to the prophet and later verses supersede earlier ones. Most critics of Islam convenientely ignore that fact. True! Now if only the US stops its interventionism which makes any change impossible maybe they could get somewhere in those countries. But that's a totally different subject... Again, this is alien to the Quran and the Sunna (teachings of Muhammad). A Muslim who converted to another faith is not to be subjected to any punishment. When he/she changes back to Islam, however, he/she is to perform an additional task to be admitted back. What? Take a shower! (sic) You're not making my task any easier, are you? I can't possibly change your mind in a post when you use such vociferous language. All I can do here is recommend you to watch PBS's "Muhammad. The life of a prophet" to get another perspective.
Res publica non dominetur
And now we have another cease-fire between Israel and the Palestinian government, and within hours of it starting, the Palestinian government fired 11 rockets at/into Israel. This is rather typical....
Where were you when the voynix came?