It has less to do with defining the logic and more to do with emphasis on the eventual case so that it will be adequately handled.
This is in fact exactly how I interpreted it when the guy said it (as you can see from my original comment), but the guy I was replying to obviously took it differently. That's why I started thinking more in depth about the phrase and what it does or should in fact mean.
You'd think they could at least have a spare PC lying around if this was actually an important piece of equipment. I do suspect it was just a plain old PC. I've done some work on Windows software for simulating downhole situations for Weatherford, and as far as I can tell they run their downhole telemetry software on Windows too - though perhaps BP do things differently.
Aside from that though, the real problems here are the type of morons who do stuff like disable the alarm system to stop themselves losing sleep when there are false alarms. If disabling the alarm means it's more likely that someone will die in a real emergency, then fix the fucking alarm already instead of just switching it off! That kind of attitude to safety is despicable, or in this case quite possibly suicidal. As you say, they need to have proper procedures in place for keeping safety critical systems in working order.
There has to be some amount of logic and reason behind the language otherwise everyone would just make stuff up as they go along. I get that a lot of rules in English are pretty arbitrary, but as you can see from the discussion here and elsewhere if you google "if and when", there isn't really one single definition for it. At worst it confuses people as to what intention someone is trying to convey, and at best it is an awkward and ugly use of the words.
If is all you really need to say but "and when" adds to it the certainty that the conditional will eventually be true, at some point.
If it were guaranteed to be true then you have no reason to use anything other than when. From what I've read in discussions today the "and when" is generally not taken to mean that the eventuality is guaranteed, only that the when will only take place if/when the if takes place. ie "we need a new computer right now, this one is going to break soon", "if and when the computer breaks, we'll get a new one".
Depending on how you're using when, it can be almost synonymous with if. For example "when this light turns red, it means something is wrong" instead of "if this light turns red, it means something is wrong". The when does sound slightly more like the light will turn red, but it certainly does not guarantee it. More knowledge of the situation is required to know just how likely it is to happen.
Anyway, I should maybe stop responding to these, the whole thing is getting slightly silly!
It's right there in the summary, no need to RTFA. MONTHS. Considering the resources that companies like BP have, this should have been fixed within days or weeks, not months. Though the problems on this rig obviously went much deeper than poor IT policies.
Well, my brother is gay. He's a geek, but definitely not into fitness. I have no idea about his attitudes in the bedroom however and I'd rather not find out:p
How many times to I have to say it? It's easy to do it, but that doesn't mean you will be good at it. Apparently I'm good at it, but I actually get regular exercise and care whether my partner is having a good time. Some people either don't care ("nice guys finish last, bad guys don't care if she finishes at all" type thing) or just have no stamina.
If and when X, Y" likewise states a temporal relationship but calls attention to the possibility that X may not occur.
In this case we are talking of "if and when certain event occurs, this will also happen". Take away either the if or when and you are still left with a temporal relationship. If can be used purely to test conditions, but in the case of something not guaranteed like this then "if", and "if and when" are equivalent.
"If and when" definitely does make it sound like the when is more guaranteed though, but in that situation I'd use something like "if, or when", "if (or when)", "if/when" etc. since these make more logical sense but also indicate that you expect some event is likely inevitable.
Maybe I should. I've just noticed that at least in programming parlance, you could really use "if" and "when" interchangeably.. in fact you can do it in normal language too, but when just seems more applicable if or when you know something is inevitable.
The way my own brain perceives the nuances of "if and when" still naturally just makes me think someone is implying something that will definitely happen at some point because of the "and when", even though taken as a whole the sentence means the exact opposite. And the differing ways that people have been using and interpreting it here shows that this is an idiom that only serves to confuse.
"If" doesn't have any links to time - if could happen today, it could happen in 20 years, it might never happen. It covers the flat tyre situation fine on its own:
"Here's how you change the tyre if we get a flat"
..which seems a little unfair to me; shouldn't you both be helping out?;)
Heh. I kind of like the completely random asides you get on Slashdot. It's like the Simpsons, start on one plot for a couple of minutes and then swing on a wild tangent. At least that's what I remember it always doing.
Sure, but the A part does render the B part moot, so in spoken/written language the fact that you've added in the B part makes it seem like the "and" must have some relevance. That's how it always seemed to me at least - wasn't until today that I tried thinking about this phrase logically to see that it does just equate to "if".
I was originally going to write "UK English" but settled on English English as a joke. It's just as correct as "American English".
Fair questions.. let's ask a guy who is Scottish and lives in Scotland, shall we?
Me: Hi, Somersault! Me: Hello there, you handsome devil! Me: Yeah, whatever. What do you think of all this "English English" stuff you were saying earlier? Me: I find it amusing. Me: Oh, I see! Me: Yep. Me: Well, bye! Me: Bye.
Actually, thinking about it logically I suppose the actual meaning of the structure does in fact simply equate to "if". When when is true, if will be true, and vice versa.
if ($if_) { $when = true; } if ($when) { $if_ = true; } if ($if_ && $when) { return true; }
# better written as
if ($if_ | when ) { return true; }
So the "and when" logically equates to "or when", both of which are completely pointless additions to the if, but the "and when" still somehow manages to make it sound like the speaker or writer believes that the situation is actually inevitable, something they've only just realised after saying "if"..
The visual style is pretty much exactly the same as limbo as I suspected could be done, though the guy that made it isn't great at designing level layouts by the look of things.
Slashdot Mirror
It has less to do with defining the logic and more to do with emphasis on the eventual case so that it will be adequately handled.
This is in fact exactly how I interpreted it when the guy said it (as you can see from my original comment), but the guy I was replying to obviously took it differently. That's why I started thinking more in depth about the phrase and what it does or should in fact mean.
You'd think they could at least have a spare PC lying around if this was actually an important piece of equipment. I do suspect it was just a plain old PC. I've done some work on Windows software for simulating downhole situations for Weatherford, and as far as I can tell they run their downhole telemetry software on Windows too - though perhaps BP do things differently.
Aside from that though, the real problems here are the type of morons who do stuff like disable the alarm system to stop themselves losing sleep when there are false alarms. If disabling the alarm means it's more likely that someone will die in a real emergency, then fix the fucking alarm already instead of just switching it off! That kind of attitude to safety is despicable, or in this case quite possibly suicidal. As you say, they need to have proper procedures in place for keeping safety critical systems in working order.
There has to be some amount of logic and reason behind the language otherwise everyone would just make stuff up as they go along. I get that a lot of rules in English are pretty arbitrary, but as you can see from the discussion here and elsewhere if you google "if and when", there isn't really one single definition for it. At worst it confuses people as to what intention someone is trying to convey, and at best it is an awkward and ugly use of the words.
Except that I wasn't trying to "win" anything, I was just thinking out loud. My subsequent posts correlate much better with the post you linked to ;)
I'm trying to learn to not feed the trolls, though I do like discussions even on silly little things like this that nobody usually even thinks about.
If is all you really need to say but "and when" adds to it the certainty that the conditional will eventually be true, at some point.
If it were guaranteed to be true then you have no reason to use anything other than when. From what I've read in discussions today the "and when" is generally not taken to mean that the eventuality is guaranteed, only that the when will only take place if/when the if takes place. ie "we need a new computer right now, this one is going to break soon", "if and when the computer breaks, we'll get a new one".
Depending on how you're using when, it can be almost synonymous with if. For example "when this light turns red, it means something is wrong" instead of "if this light turns red, it means something is wrong". The when does sound slightly more like the light will turn red, but it certainly does not guarantee it. More knowledge of the situation is required to know just how likely it is to happen.
Anyway, I should maybe stop responding to these, the whole thing is getting slightly silly!
It's right there in the summary, no need to RTFA. MONTHS. Considering the resources that companies like BP have, this should have been fixed within days or weeks, not months. Though the problems on this rig obviously went much deeper than poor IT policies.
Well, my brother is gay. He's a geek, but definitely not into fitness. I have no idea about his attitudes in the bedroom however and I'd rather not find out :p
How many times to I have to say it? It's easy to do it, but that doesn't mean you will be good at it. Apparently I'm good at it, but I actually get regular exercise and care whether my partner is having a good time. Some people either don't care ("nice guys finish last, bad guys don't care if she finishes at all" type thing) or just have no stamina.
If and when X, Y" likewise states a temporal relationship but calls attention to the possibility that X may not occur.
In this case we are talking of "if and when certain event occurs, this will also happen". Take away either the if or when and you are still left with a temporal relationship. If can be used purely to test conditions, but in the case of something not guaranteed like this then "if", and "if and when" are equivalent.
"If and when" definitely does make it sound like the when is more guaranteed though, but in that situation I'd use something like "if, or when", "if (or when)", "if/when" etc. since these make more logical sense but also indicate that you expect some event is likely inevitable.
Who thinks like that? People who don't let their cock do their thinking for them, and have an IQ above 90.
Indeed it does. My code written in PERL.
Maybe I should. I've just noticed that at least in programming parlance, you could really use "if" and "when" interchangeably.. in fact you can do it in normal language too, but when just seems more applicable if or when you know something is inevitable.
The way my own brain perceives the nuances of "if and when" still naturally just makes me think someone is implying something that will definitely happen at some point because of the "and when", even though taken as a whole the sentence means the exact opposite. And the differing ways that people have been using and interpreting it here shows that this is an idiom that only serves to confuse.
"If" doesn't have any links to time - if could happen today, it could happen in 20 years, it might never happen. It covers the flat tyre situation fine on its own:
"Here's how you change the tyre if we get a flat"
Heh. I kind of like the completely random asides you get on Slashdot. It's like the Simpsons, start on one plot for a couple of minutes and then swing on a wild tangent. At least that's what I remember it always doing.
You mean exactly like the "if" part?
And yeah it doesn't really matter. Especially since my original post was obviously wrong now that I've thought about it ;)
This Etch-a-Sketch here? Yes, I can confirm that it has dual "arm" sub-units controlled by a powerful neural net CPU (a learning computer)!
Technically it's the heat conducting and not the cold, but I do like your idea better!
Sure, but the A part does render the B part moot, so in spoken/written language the fact that you've added in the B part makes it seem like the "and" must have some relevance. That's how it always seemed to me at least - wasn't until today that I tried thinking about this phrase logically to see that it does just equate to "if".
I was originally going to write "UK English" but settled on English English as a joke. It's just as correct as "American English".
Fair questions.. let's ask a guy who is Scottish and lives in Scotland, shall we?
Me: Hi, Somersault!
Me: Hello there, you handsome devil!
Me: Yeah, whatever. What do you think of all this "English English" stuff you were saying earlier?
Me: I find it amusing.
Me: Oh, I see!
Me: Yep.
Me: Well, bye!
Me: Bye.
Actually, thinking about it logically I suppose the actual meaning of the structure does in fact simply equate to "if". When when is true, if will be true, and vice versa.
if ($if_) { $when = true; }
if ($when) { $if_ = true; }
if ($if_ && $when) { return true; }
# better written as
if ($if_ | when ) { return true; }
So the "and when" logically equates to "or when", both of which are completely pointless additions to the if, but the "and when" still somehow manages to make it sound like the speaker or writer believes that the situation is actually inevitable, something they've only just realised after saying "if"..
I can confirm that it's used in English English too. Doesn't mean it's not stupid.
Probably doesn't help having your data center full of snow..
He also said "and when" to indicate it was inevitable. This admittedly made the "if" part completely stupid.
I'm both an IT geek and have turned into a bit of a fitness buff in the last couple of years.. heh heh :P This article confirms my limited experience.
In fact, someone's already made an attempt:
http://videos.apnicommunity.com/Video,Item,322728528.html
The visual style is pretty much exactly the same as limbo as I suspected could be done, though the guy that made it isn't great at designing level layouts by the look of things.