"You can't really performance-test RC against the release. RCs usually have lot of extra overhead caused by debugging flags turned on."
I'm not so sure, I read on the fedora-devel mailing list that the RC3 release would be pretty much bit-for-bit what would be in the final release. I think there were only some minor bug fixes between the RC3 and final. If you were talking about the Fedora-Test releases, then you're right for sure.
I remember reading somewhere today that this release puts Fedora "back on track for predictability". I wonder if that bodes well for their perception?
In any event anyone who has followed along with the "Fedora Philosophy" knows that they always had the objective of releasing fairly quickly and all the while trying the latest and greatest technologies, however rough they are. You don't have to be a genius to know where the newest technologies end up all polished: RHEL.
I tried out the RC3 release a week ago and felt it a slight notable improvement over Fedora 7 in terms of polish and performance although that's just a brief evaluation. Here are some links (most I just pulled off the last link):
The iPod is an Apple product. It works. It does everything it is supposed to do, and is conveniently easy. It plays MP3s. It ALSO plays DRMed stuff, but it is NOT restrictive in that it ONLY plays DRMed stuff. It doesn't play OGG, or WMA or whatever else, and I know some people complain about that, but it never said it would. I would like to put diesel fuel in my car, but I can't. Oh well.
Apples and oranges (no pun intended). DRM is purely artificial/superficial (no physical barrier), the reasons for the fuel in your car are NOT.... People really need to stop with the stupid computer/car comparisons.
Oh by the way if you don't accept the EULA, then don't use the product, return it for a full refund, because by using it you accept it.... As an aside: Some people are funny on one hand they beleive in things like the GPL and OSS licences, but don't bother considering EULA's (which are License Agreements). Don't bother with any commercial software if you don't bother with EULA's.
Some things are so simple they're complicated I guess.
Fedora Books and Linux Books
on
Fedora Linux
·
· Score: 1
I am curious. Does a "newbie" actually buy a book on a linux distribution? I would assume that plenty of online guides are much easier, cheaper and are (arguably) a better choice.
If I'm pessimistic about the "free" part about Linux, would I spend $30 on a book? Additionally, so much changes in a given 6 month period for something like Fedora. Is is really beneficial to recommend a book to someone when any given chapter could be totally outdated for the next release?
Maybe you misunderstood.. the point was about citing not using. Perhaps I should have said "only" criteria or "main" criteria for citing a source.
However to address your point, research involves investigation. The time and skills put into that investigation is valuable experience and education.... Unless of course your educational research was primarily researching what someone else previously researched. (In my opinion that doesn't seem too worthwhile)
Additionally how accessible a source is has nothing to do with it's validity. I would expect validity to always be more important than accessibility.
"never any problem at all"... you are definitely in the minority. Reading the Fedora mailing lists, even the most experienced users mention problems with 'yum', kernel updates, anaconda or some other inadequately tested part of Fedora.
Yes, I've used FC forever and basically limited my usage to things I *know* would work, but I know everyone does not do that.
"unless you're doing a system with proprietary hardware (laptops and some integrated soundcards)"
Laptops are everywhere. The amount of work to get Linux on a laptop is too much. Additionally there are very few new laptops where EVERYTHING works. I've spents weeks tinkering with kernel settings and options to get ACPI suspend (S3 or S4) to work.
"they care about their system grinding to a halt when the HD is thrashing about trying to read files. Yes, every filesystem can get corrupted & fragmented. I just don't see it causing a problem in Linux because the system automagicaly fixes it."
Load any new distribution. The amount of thrashing is there just as well. Slocate db updates, prelinking updates, countless unnecessay daemons. In FC5 navigating the Gnome menus causes disk access and the CPU speed daemon goes up.... On 2 separate instances using one of the best desktop distros at the time (SuSE), the (default) ReiserFS system got corrupted. Both times non recoverable.
"Realy? do tell, how do I know whether to allow bin_sys.dll to have access to the internet or not? As for learning Linux, exactly how many people do you know who count as the 'average user' who can tell you what the difference is between the Windows administrator account and the user accounts, and why you should only work with the PC in the user accounts? Wakeup call - the average user is [blink]not[/blink] an administrator.
How do I know how to allow iptables to open the port so that another computer can access my samba share which I can allow other computers to access my files? I guess right-click share this file is equivalent. Wakeup call, every single XP Home user IS AN ADMINISTRATOR account. Imagine that.
"From the comments you have made, alls I can see is, for you, Windows is the one true OS & everything else isn't ready for the desktop." Don't assume. I use Linux as my primary desktop for the past few years. I've been with RH since 1999 and I've helped more people with installing Fedora than you have in your small town.
"by the way the rest of the world calls that disk the 'Install' disk not the 'restore' disk."
Do you really know what the rest of the world calls it? When I was in india, they didn't call it either, ironically they just called it windows disk. Last few laptops (and for others who bought desktops) did not come with installation disks. They came with "restore" disks. This is nothing new.
"Or lock up on a website with activeX or flash? - last I checked OSX does not support activeX - but Linux isn't ready for the desktop because it doesn't either?"
The point isn't activeX specifically. Rather prorietary software that IS supported. For example flash IS supported in OSX as well as many plugins.
"when the box says works with Windows. - need I say more."
How many cheap devices DONT SAY works with windows? So how can you tell one way or the other? How many devices say work with Linux?
"The learning curve for anti-spyware, virus scanner and firewall combined is surprisingly MUCH easier that learning linux. - hey don't fix the problem, just run more stuff to patch the holes - and pretend your PC is just as fast - I think only a Windows user is comfortable with that solution."
As if linux distro's don't give updates. Go to any linuxforum or mailing list and read how an updates broke something. Xorg update broke the nvidia driver and your back to runlevel 3. Or selinux policy stops every single browser plugin. Or kernel update stops all wireless traffic. I guess all linux users are comfortable with that solution?
E-mail - until someone emails you an attachment that wont load
Web Browsing - until you reach a website that cant play or open something
Office type document - until the file you had at school/work loads with the wrong formatting (95% correct in OOo is still not correct)
"my town of 6K people" -- so your generalizations based on 6 computers in your town somehow explain how valid the entire "desktop linux" argument is? Your sample data seems somewhat limited.
Furthermore, most of your arguments are not well thought out.
HD Restore - why do you assume I meant the user would do a restore. They would take it to someone else, obviously. So in your scenario everyone would need a specialized linux person, any fix it shop won't do. This type of support does not currently exist.
I have used many cheap USB devices that have not properly connected on Linux. Ranging from $30 printers, to all-in-one readers, to webcams and scanners. Even if less than 5% did NOT work that among millions of people who for that 1 feature would assume that the entire computer is broken or inadequate - when the box says works with Windows.
What does me using Firefox have to do with the argument? Using firefox in linux with flash will yeild many "This requires a newer flash" errors. Additionally, the current flash will improperly load or lag on some computers. To the activeX, there are many sites that people inadevertantly use or load some proprietary component, these users would have problems. -- Flash and Java plugins have crashed FF, Seamonkey and Opera many times.
Sharing files can even be sharing simple windows executables (nothing to do with viruses) or downloads. Many files (even if registered) do not load properly double clicking in either Konqueror or Nautilus.
Use Wine? I thought this was so easy? I don't even need to explain the problems with wine.
About macs, yes people know that everything is Windows or Non-Windows (ie. a mac). I am not saying that people use windows just for the $5 dollar software (as you imply). Rather, they will be at a loss finding out that all those simple applications that may have run before, won't. And the argument that there's a better oss app is silly. Names are obscure (if they even exist) and they have to be downloaded.
So somehow the same people who don't care about hardware upgrades somehow care for obscure things such as filesystem fragmentation? Every filesystem can get corrupted or fragmented. Your example is just one case. I can get a specific FS on a specific distro and show numbers. What does that prove?
The learning curve for anti-spyware, virus scanner and firewall combined is surprisingly MUCH easier that learning linux.
The bottom line is that because it works for you does not mean it will work for everyone. If you can support 6 people among 6000, that's really good but your generalizations don't hold for the entire "desktop linux" argument.
Every year from 2003 has been "This is the year of Linux on the Desktop". Not much has changed, even though there have been many improvements.
So *you* had to the install and setup for them. What happens when they plug in a new $25 usb device from bestbuy/fry's? Or purchase a $5 video game? Or upgrade the harddrive and do a "system restore"? Or lock up on a website with activeX or flash? Or share files from an unknown source?
Ubiquity has it's value, and you the lone installer for 6 PC's are not enough to say that "install ubuntu and forget" is adequate for the millions other out there.
How is it your country? How much taxes do you pay? How many times have you voted? Were you born here? Were your parents born here?
What makes you think you are being wiretapped, monitoried, surveiled, folded, spindled? How do you know? What makes you think that you in particular are subject this as opposed to someone else?.
As for the cost of college, it is a natural result of competition and capitalism. If you want the best job go to the best school. Best meaning money all around. Whether you like it or not, you are a willing participant in that capitalism (as can be seen in your ads on your websites). And I guess your upset because you are paying for the education all by yourself without any assistance from loans, grants and family members?
Step 3 seems totally arbritrary. Yes, I understand it is humor, but I could just as well say "Letters that I don't like are removed" and derive some other meaning.
Can someone verify how well the svg rendering works in Opera? Some simple tests like at svg basics would be nice to check. I've heard all sorts of varying reports on how well this worked, then compared to Firefox native rendering, then the adobe plugin. When will we see some consistency in the svg world?
You probably should bank elsewhere or better educate yourself. In the last 3 bank accounts I've opened (2 in the last 3 years) none of them used SSN as account number. Everything is delegated to pin numbers or other account numbers. Even more so -- my bank statements do not have my SSN number on them anywhere. I use a Credit Union, a (mega-corporation) online Bank and a regional (to my area of the US) Bank.
Point being, I doubt starting with the banks is proper. Instead start with all the commercial companies that provided services, like cell phones providers or cable company. (Both asked me to verify SSN in the last few months)
The reality of the situation is about market share. Slashdot does make money off of advertising (ads, etc.). While that itself is not a bad thing, it is an important point to keep in mind when questioning their decisions. If I can keep people longer on slashdot or coming back that increases my traffic which can translate to returns on ads, etc.
In truth the relevance, creativity and uniqueness of slashdot has been degrading for years. Other sites often publish news faster or have a better selection. If this site doesn't come up with new creative and/or popular things that people can use (or hopefully will use) then the whole site will lose relevancy and eventually its readers.
Of course, that's a more 'capitalistic' view of recent changes (bookmarks, tagging, etc.), but I don't see it as totally off base.
For having such a low ID number, I'm surprised that you find that even worth mentioning. I always associate 'nerd' with inept, and 'geek' with trivial knowlegde... or something to that effect.
Past 4 years of reading slashdot comments has really sucked. But what I disagree with is the notion that you think (or imply) that any given 'nerd' will be able to contribute anything at all to this discussion. Maybe just some open-minded critical users of RH/FC? As a RH/FC user for 7 years, I don't really have much to add to the discussion of the Foundation. I can argue left and right about the issues in Fedora Core, but that's really irrelevant.
Example: I am in a publicly funded education system. To perform certain science work assignments I have to use a windows-only software on my computer. Without it I cannot complete my assignment and pass the class.... Could I avoid it? Possibly, by staying after school, spending my hours based on the school's hours, enduring extra transportation cost since the school bus has specific operating hours, and losing the other comforts and conveniences of my own study environment. - This tradeoff is both unreasonable and unfair, and to expect people to make such concessions is unrealistic especially in low-income or underpriveldged households. This "choice" isn't really a choice. -- Well that's my opinion.
Well said and I do agree! However you must understand the serious issue about having to lose certain rights by accepting certain agreements which are unavoidable with certain software. And my most serious example would be someone who couldn't understand or know any better and ends up using some windows software and in turn he or she loses his right to certain privacy, security or unfair regulations on what they can do with their own personal work or hardware. While you can argue no one is "forced" to use windows, in reality they are *still* more or less monopolistic AND without knowing any better people have no choice really.
Couldn't tell which part was sarcastic. Anyone who's studied economics knows there are problems with having an totally un-regulated free market. I guess the point with which I'm disagreeing is that this is somehow the sole result of a Bush/conservative government as opposed to a systemic decay of US economic regulations since the Clinton administration and earlier.
No the idea of a free-market and patriotism really have nothing to do with eachother, regardless of how pundits and media outlets seem to connect them. By perpetuating this notion or even using it an argument against free-market economics you're just encouraging ignorance.
Slashdot Mirror
"You can't really performance-test RC against the release. RCs usually have lot of extra overhead caused by debugging flags turned on."
I'm not so sure, I read on the fedora-devel mailing list that the RC3 release would be pretty much bit-for-bit what would be in the final release. I think there were only some minor bug fixes between the RC3 and final. If you were talking about the Fedora-Test releases, then you're right for sure.
I remember reading somewhere today that this release puts Fedora "back on track for predictability". I wonder if that bodes well for their perception?
In any event anyone who has followed along with the "Fedora Philosophy" knows that they always had the objective of releasing fairly quickly and all the while trying the latest and greatest technologies, however rough they are. You don't have to be a genius to know where the newest technologies end up all polished: RHEL.
I tried out the RC3 release a week ago and felt it a slight notable improvement over Fedora 7 in terms of polish and performance although that's just a brief evaluation. Here are some links (most I just pulled off the last link):
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/ReleaseSummary
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f8/
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugs/F8Common
http://www.mjmwired.net/resources/mjm-fedora-f8.html
Oh wait ... looks like fedoraproject site is overwhelmed!
Apples and oranges (no pun intended). DRM is purely artificial/superficial (no physical barrier), the reasons for the fuel in your car are NOT. ... People really need to stop with the stupid computer/car comparisons.
Oh by the way if you don't accept the EULA, then don't use the product, return it for a full refund, because by using it you accept it. ... As an aside: Some people are funny on one hand they beleive in things like the GPL and OSS licences, but don't bother considering EULA's (which are License Agreements). Don't bother with any commercial software if you don't bother with EULA's.
First: What does this have to do with the subject at hand? Off topic. -1. htm
Second: If you take
http://googlified.com.googlepages.com/contactlist
and just strip the html page and go to:
http://googlified.com.googlepages.com/
You'll find a link to googlified.com
Some things are so simple they're complicated I guess.
I am curious. Does a "newbie" actually buy a book on a linux distribution? I would assume that plenty of online guides are much easier, cheaper and are (arguably) a better choice.
h tml i on_notes.html
For example:
http://gagme.com/greg/linux/fc6-tips.php
http://www.mjmwired.net/resources/mjm-fedora-fc6.
http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installat
If I'm pessimistic about the "free" part about Linux, would I spend $30 on a book? Additionally, so much changes in a given 6 month period for something like Fedora. Is is really beneficial to recommend a book to someone when any given chapter could be totally outdated for the next release?
Why don't you please go and read the article?
Maybe you misunderstood .. the point was about citing not using. Perhaps I should have said "only" criteria or "main" criteria for citing a source.
... Unless of course your educational research was primarily researching what someone else previously researched. (In my opinion that doesn't seem too worthwhile)
However to address your point, research involves investigation. The time and skills put into that investigation is valuable experience and education.
Additionally how accessible a source is has nothing to do with it's validity. I would expect validity to always be more important than accessibility.
So if something is easy to search, browse and read it is acceptable to cite as a source? Is that the criteria for research sources - ease of access?
"never any problem at all" ... you are definitely in the minority. Reading the Fedora mailing lists, even the most experienced users mention problems with 'yum', kernel updates, anaconda or some other inadequately tested part of Fedora.
Yes, I've used FC forever and basically limited my usage to things I *know* would work, but I know everyone does not do that.
Laptops are everywhere. The amount of work to get Linux on a laptop is too much. Additionally there are very few new laptops where EVERYTHING works. I've spents weeks tinkering with kernel settings and options to get ACPI suspend (S3 or S4) to work.
"they care about their system grinding to a halt when the HD is thrashing about trying to read files. Yes, every filesystem can get corrupted & fragmented. I just don't see it causing a problem in Linux because the system automagicaly fixes it."
Load any new distribution. The amount of thrashing is there just as well. Slocate db updates, prelinking updates, countless unnecessay daemons. In FC5 navigating the Gnome menus causes disk access and the CPU speed daemon goes up.
"Realy? do tell, how do I know whether to allow bin_sys.dll to have access to the internet or not? As for learning Linux, exactly how many people do you know who count as the 'average user' who can tell you what the difference is between the Windows administrator account and the user accounts, and why you should only work with the PC in the user accounts? Wakeup call - the average user is [blink]not[/blink] an administrator.
How do I know how to allow iptables to open the port so that another computer can access my samba share which I can allow other computers to access my files? I guess right-click share this file is equivalent. Wakeup call, every single XP Home user IS AN ADMINISTRATOR account. Imagine that.
"From the comments you have made, alls I can see is, for you, Windows is the one true OS & everything else isn't ready for the desktop."
Don't assume. I use Linux as my primary desktop for the past few years. I've been with RH since 1999 and I've helped more people with installing Fedora than you have in your small town.
"by the way the rest of the world calls that disk the 'Install' disk not the 'restore' disk."
Do you really know what the rest of the world calls it? When I was in india, they didn't call it either, ironically they just called it windows disk. Last few laptops (and for others who bought desktops) did not come with installation disks. They came with "restore" disks. This is nothing new.
"Or lock up on a website with activeX or flash? - last I checked OSX does not support activeX - but Linux isn't ready for the desktop because it doesn't either?"
The point isn't activeX specifically. Rather prorietary software that IS supported. For example flash IS supported in OSX as well as many plugins.
"when the box says works with Windows. - need I say more."
How many cheap devices DONT SAY works with windows? So how can you tell one way or the other? How many devices say work with Linux?
"The learning curve for anti-spyware, virus scanner and firewall combined is surprisingly MUCH easier that learning linux. - hey don't fix the problem, just run more stuff to patch the holes - and pretend your PC is just as fast - I think only a Windows user is comfortable with that solution."
As if linux distro's don't give updates. Go to any linuxforum or mailing list and read how an updates broke something. Xorg update broke the nvidia driver and your back to runlevel 3. Or selinux policy stops every single browser plugin. Or kernel update stops all wireless traffic. I guess all linux users are comfortable with that solution?
"my town of 6K people" -- so your generalizations based on 6 computers in your town somehow explain how valid the entire "desktop linux" argument is? Your sample data seems somewhat limited.
Furthermore, most of your arguments are not well thought out.
HD Restore - why do you assume I meant the user would do a restore. They would take it to someone else, obviously. So in your scenario everyone would need a specialized linux person, any fix it shop won't do. This type of support does not currently exist.
I have used many cheap USB devices that have not properly connected on Linux. Ranging from $30 printers, to all-in-one readers, to webcams and scanners. Even if less than 5% did NOT work that among millions of people who for that 1 feature would assume that the entire computer is broken or inadequate - when the box says works with Windows.
What does me using Firefox have to do with the argument? Using firefox in linux with flash will yeild many "This requires a newer flash" errors. Additionally, the current flash will improperly load or lag on some computers. To the activeX, there are many sites that people inadevertantly use or load some proprietary component, these users would have problems. -- Flash and Java plugins have crashed FF, Seamonkey and Opera many times.
Sharing files can even be sharing simple windows executables (nothing to do with viruses) or downloads. Many files (even if registered) do not load properly double clicking in either Konqueror or Nautilus.
Use Wine? I thought this was so easy? I don't even need to explain the problems with wine.
About macs, yes people know that everything is Windows or Non-Windows (ie. a mac). I am not saying that people use windows just for the $5 dollar software (as you imply). Rather, they will be at a loss finding out that all those simple applications that may have run before, won't. And the argument that there's a better oss app is silly. Names are obscure (if they even exist) and they have to be downloaded.
So somehow the same people who don't care about hardware upgrades somehow care for obscure things such as filesystem fragmentation? Every filesystem can get corrupted or fragmented. Your example is just one case. I can get a specific FS on a specific distro and show numbers. What does that prove?
The learning curve for anti-spyware, virus scanner and firewall combined is surprisingly MUCH easier that learning linux.
The bottom line is that because it works for you does not mean it will work for everyone. If you can support 6 people among 6000, that's really good but your generalizations don't hold for the entire "desktop linux" argument.
Every year from 2003 has been "This is the year of Linux on the Desktop". Not much has changed, even though there have been many improvements.
So *you* had to the install and setup for them. What happens when they plug in a new $25 usb device from bestbuy/fry's? Or purchase a $5 video game? Or upgrade the harddrive and do a "system restore"? Or lock up on a website with activeX or flash? Or share files from an unknown source?
Ubiquity has it's value, and you the lone installer for 6 PC's are not enough to say that "install ubuntu and forget" is adequate for the millions other out there.
How is it your country? How much taxes do you pay? How many times have you voted? Were you born here? Were your parents born here?
What makes you think you are being wiretapped, monitoried, surveiled, folded, spindled? How do you know? What makes you think that you in particular are subject this as opposed to someone else?.
As for the cost of college, it is a natural result of competition and capitalism. If you want the best job go to the best school. Best meaning money all around. Whether you like it or not, you are a willing participant in that capitalism (as can be seen in your ads on your websites). And I guess your upset because you are paying for the education all by yourself without any assistance from loans, grants and family members?
Step 3 seems totally arbritrary. Yes, I understand it is humor, but I could just as well say "Letters that I don't like are removed" and derive some other meaning.
... I know that B.A. Baracus is happy.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Can someone verify how well the svg rendering works in Opera? Some simple tests like at svg basics would be nice to check. I've heard all sorts of varying reports on how well this worked, then compared to Firefox native rendering, then the adobe plugin. When will we see some consistency in the svg world?
Okay, I hope this is remotely relevant. Check out these E3 pictures.
You probably should bank elsewhere or better educate yourself. In the last 3 bank accounts I've opened (2 in the last 3 years) none of them used SSN as account number. Everything is delegated to pin numbers or other account numbers. Even more so -- my bank statements do not have my SSN number on them anywhere. I use a Credit Union, a (mega-corporation) online Bank and a regional (to my area of the US) Bank.
Point being, I doubt starting with the banks is proper. Instead start with all the commercial companies that provided services, like cell phones providers or cable company. (Both asked me to verify SSN in the last few months)
The reality of the situation is about market share. Slashdot does make money off of advertising (ads, etc.). While that itself is not a bad thing, it is an important point to keep in mind when questioning their decisions. If I can keep people longer on slashdot or coming back that increases my traffic which can translate to returns on ads, etc.
In truth the relevance, creativity and uniqueness of slashdot has been degrading for years. Other sites often publish news faster or have a better selection. If this site doesn't come up with new creative and/or popular things that people can use (or hopefully will use) then the whole site will lose relevancy and eventually its readers.
Of course, that's a more 'capitalistic' view of recent changes (bookmarks, tagging, etc.), but I don't see it as totally off base.
For having such a low ID number, I'm surprised that you find that even worth mentioning. I always associate 'nerd' with inept, and 'geek' with trivial knowlegde ... or something to that effect.
Past 4 years of reading slashdot comments has really sucked. But what I disagree with is the notion that you think (or imply) that any given 'nerd' will be able to contribute anything at all to this discussion. Maybe just some open-minded critical users of RH/FC? As a RH/FC user for 7 years, I don't really have much to add to the discussion of the Foundation. I can argue left and right about the issues in Fedora Core, but that's really irrelevant.
There are some pages: installation guide, installation notes which should be valuable starting points.
"always avoidable" - debateable
... Could I avoid it? Possibly, by staying after school, spending my hours based on the school's hours, enduring extra transportation cost since the school bus has specific operating hours, and losing the other comforts and conveniences of my own study environment. - This tradeoff is both unreasonable and unfair, and to expect people to make such concessions is unrealistic especially in low-income or underpriveldged households. This "choice" isn't really a choice. -- Well that's my opinion.
Example: I am in a publicly funded education system. To perform certain science work assignments I have to use a windows-only software on my computer. Without it I cannot complete my assignment and pass the class.
Well said and I do agree! However you must understand the serious issue about having to lose certain rights by accepting certain agreements which are unavoidable with certain software. And my most serious example would be someone who couldn't understand or know any better and ends up using some windows software and in turn he or she loses his right to certain privacy, security or unfair regulations on what they can do with their own personal work or hardware. While you can argue no one is "forced" to use windows, in reality they are *still* more or less monopolistic AND without knowing any better people have no choice really.
Couldn't tell which part was sarcastic. Anyone who's studied economics knows there are problems with having an totally un-regulated free market. I guess the point with which I'm disagreeing is that this is somehow the sole result of a Bush/conservative government as opposed to a systemic decay of US economic regulations since the Clinton administration and earlier.
No the idea of a free-market and patriotism really have nothing to do with eachother, regardless of how pundits and media outlets seem to connect them. By perpetuating this notion or even using it an argument against free-market economics you're just encouraging ignorance.