Walking Other Worlds

At this point, if you're at all interested in online gaming, you probably recognize the 'MMOG' abbreviation. Massively Multiplayer Online Games are one of the most popular genres in gaming right now, and today I have impressions from two titles that do things slightly differently from the norm. Final Fantasy XI has been out for three years on the PC, two years on the PS2, and as of last month made its debut on the Xbox 360. The first Massive title to grace Microsoft's next-gen console is, regrettably, starting to show its age. More sprightly is the standalone expansion to last year's Guild Wars, simply entitled Factions. It adds new content and classes to a very popular Player vs. Player (PVP) title, and manages to meet the high expectations set by the original game's launch. Read on for my impressions of Final Fantasy XI for the Xbox 360, and Guild Wars: Factions.

• Title: Final Fantasy XI
• Developer/Publisher: Square/Enix
• System:360 (PC, PS2)

Three years ago, when Square/Enix released Final Fantasy XI (FFXI) into the U.S. market, it was like manna from heaven for FF fanboys and MMOG players alike. World of Warcraft was still a long ways off, even at launch Star Wars Galaxies wasn't everything that had been hoped for, and Final Fantasy X-2 was something of a shakeup to RPG traditionalists. The graphical presentation, fluid job system, copious questing options, and incredibly cute Taru Taru race was enough to guarantee FFXI's popularity in both the East and West for many years.

2003 was a long time ago, though. The Taru Taru are still cute, but just about every other aspect of the game feels dated in comparison to modern online games. Questing is extraordinarily awkward; There are lots of quests to do but almost no way to know how to find them. Hint books or the internet are really the only way you'll know that the surly gang of school kids behind the fish warehouse in Windhurst is a consistent source of fun missions. Graphically, the game looks serviceable but out of place on the Xbox 360. On a hi-def screen the jaggies ignorable on the PC or PS2 try to reach out and remove your optic nerves. The job system (allowing you to try all the classes with one character) is still one of the finest examples of balance and utility in the genre ... but raising levels on those classes will drive you to distraction. Leveling is an unrelenting, punishing grind. The first ten levels are basically required soloing, but beyond that you'd better be grouped or you're going to be enjoying the 'feature' of xp loss on death. My favorite moment is when you die just after having gained a level. You lose xp so, of course, you lose your level. That's some class A fun.

The 360 version collects up all three expansions to the game (Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, and Treasures of Aht Urhgan) along with the original gameworld, to allow the 360 experience to be a 'complete' one. Unfortunately, unless you've already been playing this title on the PC or PS2, much of that content will be weeks or months away from your level 1 character. The most recent expansion, Aht Urghan, has been getting very positive commentary from those who can play it, but the expansion's inclusion into this bundle is of limited interest to the new player.

Me personally, I like Final Fantasy XI a lot. After the minty-clean ease of WoW or EQII, the brittle hardcore crunch of FFXI is a really nice change of pace. That said, I don't really understand this title's release for the 360. In essence, this game was only released on the console so that Microsoft could check off a box for the MMOG genre in its launch window library. With new and innovative Massive offerings still quite a ways off (such as Huxley), FFXI provides a stopgap marketing measure for Microsoft, and once again proves Square/Enix's skill with hardware integration. Definitely not for the MMOG newcomer, and probably already a notch in the belt for the experienced, I'm just not sure who this bundle is for.

• Title: Guild Wars: Factions
• Developer: ArenaNet
• Publisher: NCSoft
• System:PC

Last year Guild Wars broke through many of the walls keeping the Massive genre confined. The first offering from ArenaNet offered up heavily instanced Player Vs. Environment (PVE) play and keenly balanced PVP play; Fun gameplay from day one without a monthly fee was hardly business as usual. What's now being referred to as Guild Wars: Prophecies has had over a year of enthusiastic fanbase building, and those happy gamers now have even more to celebrate. Factions adds an entire new continent to quest on, new classes to explore, and a distinctly original style of PVP combat to switch things up for the jaded.

The two new classes brings the total up to eight, and fit seamlessly into the world of Ascalon for both PVE and PVP play. The Assassin is a direct damage character, carrying a lot of similarities to the Warrior class. An Assassin character has to get very up close and personal to do maximum damage, though, not having some of the skill with ranged weapons other classes do. The class also breaks ground with 'combo' moves. The mix-and-match actions that any character can slot are always fun to combine in interesting ways, but the Assassin relies on stringing together specific moves for increasing damage. The other new class, the Ritualist, is a support class that features a good deal of group buffing and debuffing. I found the Ritualist's laid back style of play kind of awkward in PVE, but it was a lot of fun in PVP matches. As long as you're in the main pack of your team, you're doing some good. A simple strategy even an inexperienced player like me could follow.

The new questing continent, the region known as Cantha, will keep the PVE players happy for a very long time. It's simply gorgeous, and artistically very different from many of the initial Prophecies zones. For example, the summer green that the lower-level original zone uses gives way to an autumnal orange and gold in Eastern-themed Cantha. There are over two dozen core quest missions, and enough side-quests to keep even the most dedicated PVE character busy for some time. For me, the most enjoyable element of these environs is the smaller zones, some of which go far beyond the traditional fantasy tropes we've come to expect. A beach-front area dominated by villages built on giant tortoises, and an ancient city built into a massive gorge, are just two of the nonstandard zones you'll travel through in Cantha. The Guild Wars designers went about as far as they could from the look and tone of the original Prophesies zones, and the Eastern sensibility and flair is like a breath of fresh air.

PVP is the gameplay that most people come looking for when they sit down to a session of Guild Wars, and Factions provides for these players as well. Besides the same gameplay seen in Prophecies, travelers to Cantha have the opportunity to align with two warring groups seeking to control the newly found lands. In PVP battles, guilds can struggle back and forth across a highly militarized zone. The more PVP victories a faction has, based on the guilds associated with it, the more land it can claim to control. The most interesting thing is that individual guilds can then lay claim to some of these lands, based on the amount of favour they've curried with their patron faction. This favour is earned not by PVP, but by PVE questing. The most successful guilds under Factions, then, are mixed bags. PVE questers garner favour with the ruling faction, while PVP gladiators ensure that their faction has control of a large swath of land. It forces players that normally would not associate to come together in a common goal, and is a right brilliant idea.

As has been the case since its launch, the heights of this game are not for the hardcore. At this week's E3 ArenaNet has flown some of the most dedicated guilds out to compete live on the show floor. These players spend hundreds of hours each month honing their skills in the arena, and if you want to compete at that level you're going to have to sacrifice. For those of us with less ambitious goals, Factions is a lot of added flavour for a great casual game. You can pop in, play for 30 minutes with NPC allies, and pop out having had a lot of fun. It still has the same drawbacks as the original; Communication elements are a little rough, and if you find yourself questing with other people you're likely to find yourself frustrated sooner rather than later. That said, if you enjoy the Prophecies portion of Guild Wars ArenaNet's additions to the game are going to make you reconnect with your very first humiliating loss and that sweet, sweet first victory all over again.

Comments

FP

[Anonymous Coward]

Read More link on the homepage doesn't work.. is this a bug in Slashcode?

FFXI poor port

[Tony Hoyle]

The X360 port of FFXI was basically just a straight copy of the PC version - however they managed to bork the graphics (looks like 640x480 in many places), and the framerate just drags at times (there's speculation it's actually running on a PC emulator).

OTOH it's primarily aimed at the PS2 gamers for an upgrade and is a big improvement for them.

IMO you either like things like FFXI or you like things like Guid Wars. If you want PvP then go for GW, if you want involved storylines and RPG then go for FFXI.

Re:FFXI poor port

[musikit]

the xbox port of FFXI was a gimic my MS to bring a japanese fan base in. "ohh i can buy a xbox 360 and still play my favorite MMO"

i've never seen the xbox360 graphics for ffxi i've heard both accounts.
1. "OMFG AWESOME!!"
2. "SUCKS ASS!"

the PC graphics were good for me because i cared more about the games mechanics then seeing 5000 people with fully independent flowing capes. many often hack the registry to get a better display from FFXI.

i particually like this game. i was originally waiting for WoW however at the time this game came out WoW was several months away. i am often glad i didnt get WoW.

that being said there are a couple of things about this game that new users should know.
1. it does take more time then other MMOs. i.e. people have certain expectations of how long your going to play in pt. money is hard to come by. etc.
2. there is a large grind. it takes on the order of 900,000 xp to get to max level and for a large majority of the game you only get 3,000-3,500 xp an hour. do the math.
3. the job system is incredable. i dont need 10 characters to try out other jobs. i have 1 character and if i want to try a different job i can just switch at anytime.
4. there is a lot of end game content. however that content is often time restricted. i.e can only do it 3 times a week.

Re:FFXI poor port

[AuMatar]

There's 2 caveats to #3

1) race matters. If you're a blm, you need to be tarutaru. The rest just have too big a mana defecit to do it efficiently. Whm is almost as bad, although you can get away with it more since healers are always rare. If you aren't the right race for a job, don't bother.

2) Parties need the right mix. You need a healer (whm, rdm, or sum/whm). You need a mana booster (bard, rdm) that can'/t overlap with the healer (so you need a rdm and bard, or 2 rdm, or whm and rdm, etc). You need a tank (pal/war, war/nin, or nin/war). You need 3 damage dealers (everyone else, prefer a blm as at least 1 of them) of different types so you can genkei effectively. If you don't have that, you can't do anything.

Expect 2 hour waits for parties, frequently. Expect not to be able to talk to your party, as 1/3 or more won't speak english. Expect to be kicked form groups if you haven't bought gil or spent rl days grinding it for the top gear (and thats impossible if you don't pick a melee class. Grinding as a bard hurts). Expect to do nothing but grinding for gil or levels 99% of your gameplay.

Re:FFXI poor port

[musikit]

1) one of my RL friends is a level 75 elf blm (elf being the "worst" blm) im a 75 taru blm (taru being the "best" blm) he constantly out damages me. race in game is the same as race out of game. only matters if you want it to.

2) ive have a set party for missions and we've never needed a mana "booster" from what i understand FFXI is the first game with a mana "booster" job. people wont level without one because of the stigmata associated with it

3) ive had good days where ive logged in and immediately gotten and invite and bad days where after 3-4 hours i still did not have a party. however i've never been kicked out of a party becaues i did not "buy gil" or had the "uber equipment" i can think of only 2 reasons ive been kicked from a party. a. i was a ass. b. i sucked at the time.

4) i have spent a large portion of my game play "grinding" i do have 4 level 75 jobs. however i havent farmed in months. only getting gil from drops while "grinding" or from missions/quests i've done with friends. i did spend a lot of time setting this system up though and it by any means isnt a lot of money. just enough for me to level and craft as a hobby. i'm also considered very "cheap" by many of my friends as i dont use in game consumables (food, items, potions, ammo, etc) however they still continue to ask for my help and invite me into parties.

Re:FFXI poor port

[paitre]

1) race matters. If you're a blm, you need to be tarutaru. The rest just have too big a mana defecit to do it efficiently. Whm is almost as bad, although you can get away with it more since healers are always rare. If you aren't the right race for a job, don't bother.

Umm, No. HELL No.
I'm a 75 Hume BLM. I have absolutely -zero- problem playing BLM and properly managing my MP pool. I had no problems levelling, and I certainly have no problems end-game. One of the better BLM in my Linkshell is a farking Elvaan for crying out loud. Race really only matters, for mage classes, if you're a Galka. And even they have ways of getting enough of an MP boost that they can mage. Yes, you can be a -slightly- better THF or RNG as a Mithra, but the differences are literally so slight as to be immaterial. Particularly at later levels when you can use gear to make up for the racial differences.

2) Parties need the right mix. You need a healer (whm, rdm, or sum/whm). You need a mana booster (bard, rdm) that can'/t overlap with the healer (so you need a rdm and bard, or 2 rdm, or whm and rdm, etc). You need a tank (pal/war, war/nin, or nin/war). You need 3 damage dealers (everyone else, prefer a blm as at least 1 of them) of different types so you can genkei effectively. If you don't have that, you can't do anything.

Kinda true, but kinda not. Bard and RDM are not -necessary-, but certainly make things easier. More important than Ballad or Refresh are both classes' ability to Debuff the mobs (specifically their class-respective Dispel).
A "proper" exp pt is typically 2x Support, Tank, 3x DD.
Support jobs are: Corsair (which also doubles as an effective DD), Bard, Red Mage, White Mage, (Summoner)
Tanks: Paladin, (Ninja), (Warrior), (Blue Mage)
DD: Black Mage, Summoner (this really is Summoner's primary role, not support), Dark Knight, Beastmaster, Puppetmaster, Warrior, Dragoon, Samurai, Monk, Thief, Ranger, Ninja (yes, DD.), Blue Mage

The three new jobs (Blue Mage, Corsair, Puppetmaster) have been excellent additions. You get very unique jobs, two of which can effectively solo, and can also offer quite a bit to an Exp Pt. Blue Mage can basically do everything. THey can self-skillchain and magic burst, for crying out loud. Corsair is essentially a damage dealing Bard. All three new jobs can be unlocked by anyone with a level 30 job. All you need is Sneak and Invis. Just like a level 75, since the new jobs are all in areas with mobs that aggro 75's. OMFG do they aggro!

Final correction: genkai are the level limit quests @50, 55, 60, 65 and 70 - the original level caps that the game had through its first 18 months, or so.
Renkei are skillchains (reference Adennak's Renkei Chart - Google for it). Renkei are not absolutely necessary, btw. Helpful as hell, and speed fights up, but not necessary.

Re:FFXI poor port

[0racle]

Expect 2 hour waits for parties, frequently. Expect not to be able to talk to your party, as 1/3 or more won't speak english. Expect to be kicked form groups if you haven't bought gil or spent rl days grinding it for the top gear (and thats impossible if you don't pick a melee class. Grinding as a bard hurts). Expect to do nothing but grinding for gil or levels 99% of your gameplay.

Expect that the above poster is full of it and most probably a fan of some other game and believes there can be only one. Nothing they said was correct.

Re:FFXI poor port

[paitre]

As a Taru BLM, you can get away without using food when playing a mage job - you typically have far more INT and FAAAAAR more MP than any of the other jobs. The only job I'd categorically call Taru "best" at would actually be Summoner, just because of their MP pools.

On Buying gil:
If you are buying gil, or buying already levelled characters, YOU'RE A GIMP. Odds are you simply don't have the patience to play the game properly, and you almost definately do not know how to properly play the jobs you bought. I craft for gil. I simply hate farming. Just today, from crafting, I've made about 800k in 3ish hours worth of synth attempts. Including transferring materials between characters. Anyone can do it, most just don't want to for some reason. More money for me.

Call me elitist, or whatever, but I like playing the game with folks that actually know how to play the game, and didn't cheat their way to 75.

Re:FFXI poor port

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been said, but it deserves to be supported. Only a small subset of FFXI users are obsessed enough to worry about the relatively minor differences between well-equipped characters of the same job and differing races. Having played a Tarutaru Melee, including some tanking, I can speak to this a little, and know others who also focus on roles for which their races are not optimal.

Certain players get extremely fixated on one small aspect of efficiency, ignoring more gross inefficiencies, and always justifying their obsession by stating that the food or equipment which compensates for one race's deficiencies would be further improving the 'correct' race.

Culture varies per server, but in general there will always be party leaders who will kick you for no good reason, party members who will complain unjustifiably about you, etc. Being the perfect model of system efficiency might help you get into a few parties a little faster, but most of the time you'll probably find yourself just as frustrated as the less 'correct' characters.

Factors affecting a character's performance are constantly being evaluated, often with unfair biases, but the general consensus is that Race is the least significant factor affecting performance. Food's impact can often be more significant than Race's, Equipment's impact is more than either (and there are plenty of similar debates about the wrongness of certain uses of equipment, since weapon accuracy varies by job). The most important factor, and the one which no amount of probing into /search or /check will tell people (hence the obsession with other details) is the player's skill at that job. This varies radically, and no amount of ultra-rare equipment, expensive food, and racial min-maxing will make a bad player worth having in your party. A skilled player can turn a 'disadvantaged' character into something really impressive.

Finally, more people need to consider forming parties rather than simply waiting to be pulled into one. This is complicated when the job availability is imbalanced (lack of WHM or of a tank (PLD, NIN, possibly WAR or MNK depending on who you ask, and more recently possibly BLU) being the most common problem), but I've seen people LFGing at times when there were enough people searching to form two or more decent parties. If you don't know anything about xp areas for your level this isn't a good option, but if you do, set lfg, but check /search periodically to see if there are enough people to make a party. If necessary, you can ask people who aren't seeking if they're willing to party (be very polite, and don't expect a response right away). In general, it's probably a good idea to include some details about the party you're forming when you ask, such as where you intend to xp and how many people you have so far, and possibly what their jobs are. Use the autotranslater as possible.

Text based MMORPG

[Cephas Keken]

Carnage Blender

Best free text based mmorpg by a mile and half. Great community, nifty spells, and a whole lot of clicking!

Re:Text based MMORPG

[Anonymous Coward]

OR you can additionally make ME money by following this link:

http://cb2.carnageblender.com/?specialoffer=2195

=)

Re:Text based MMORPG

[cranesan]

Text Based MMORPGs are not as good as MUDs.

Re:Text based MMORPG

[x1n933k]

I agree. I've played MUDs for 10 years. Not only are they free tons of changes and like all games the basics are the same but with MU* they use imagination.

Does that sounds cheesey? www.mudconnect.com

[J]

Re:Text based MMORPG

[Blakey Rat]

"text-based MMORPG"? So it's a MUD with a pretentious name?

Also, best one? You're saying it's the best MUD by a mile and a half? How many MUDs have you played?

Not buying any of this, sorry. ;)

Automated characters

[WebfishUK]

Know what I'd like to see in multi-player on line games? More automated characters. Seriously! But ones written by ordinary users to interface with the online world. Perhaps running as a screen saver on their machine - BOINC anyone? What a great place to develop AI algorithms. Bit of computer vision, map building and path planning to navigate around. Some basic interaction problems to solve. If the API for these things was better published I could almost imagine having a go myself!

Re:Automated characters

[Aladrin]

I've often thought this would be a great addition to an MMO also. The server could even do the hosting of your personal NPC, just like all its own NPCs. The monthly charge would take care of it.

It's actually frighteningly easy to expose the scripting to users. The problem is that most custom script languages provide too much functionality and you can make your NPC help you cheat. The language has to be planned to prevent any 'hacks' via the NPCs scripting.

Re:Automated characters

[Anonymous Coward]

I certainly wish I could write a bot to grind Argent Dawn, Zandalar, Cenarion Circle, Timbermaw, Thorium Brotherhood and Hydraxian Waterlord reputation for me.

(Don't tell anyone, but I've been working on it :P)

Re:Automated characters

[Anonymous Coward]

So what's the point for a player to pay a monthly fee if they're going to be playing alongside hundreds of stupid AI characters. There's a name for such things - OFFLINE games.

Putting AI into the game might be good for *your* character, but it sucks for everyone else who has to interact with it.

Re:Automated characters

[Metaphorically]

Zactly. This happened in MUDs and even on IRC. Scripting is lots of fun for people who understand it but really hard to explain to people who don't get it. Really, scripting is a meta-game - a game about the game. That makes it kind of inaccessible and less important to most people.

That said, I'm a coder and I've really been meaning to dig into the Lua interfaces for WoW, even though the functionality there doesn't approach the level you're talking about (afaik).

Hmm...

[Aladrin]

I played FFXI the other day. For $30, I got the game and a 30 day trial for me, and another free trial for a friend. I uploaded the game to him (He's in Norway) and we eached played for a while. I cancelled after about 2 weeks. I think he cancelled closer to the end of the month.

It was total grind-ville. There was nothing to do but grind. Want to hunt? Grind. Want to make potions? Grind. Want to fish... Okay, you could fish a bit without grinding much. But only a bit. And only after you earn enough money for a fishing pole and bait.

I spent the first 2 hours walking. Not looking and talking to people. Walking. I was looking for a way out of town so I could hunt. Once I finally found it, I killed a couple things, got hurt and wandered back through town to rest and get healed. I eventually stopped a passerby in the field and asked if there was another way (no mention in the manual) and she said it was a certain button on the gamepad. (I was on PC, she PS2.) I thanked her and started the button hunt again. It turns out, after you hit the button there's a pointless 2-3 second delay, and then the animation begins. Grinding went a little quicker after that, but was always still grinding. (Kill, kill, rest, repeat.)

As for GW: Factions... I played the PvE of the original Guild Wars for 260+ hours before I finally got bored. For a person who thinks 40 hours games are long these days, that's pretty impressive.

Now, I have a full time job and don't have the time I used to dedicate to gaming, but it's excessively hard to find the time needed to sit down and do a mission on GW Factions now. I need to dedicate at LEAST an hour, probably 2-3 because there are so many noobs that think Assassins are cool and they can play them like a warrior. The usual solution is to just reject any group that has an Assassin in it. Since most groups are doing this anyhow, good groups aren't as rare as they could be. It still takes time, though, to find any group at all.

The first mission you get if you sail your character to Cantha requires that not only you find a group, but that you get lucky and another group from another area isn't totally stupid, too. You each have to keep a single character alive through many swarms of mutants. It's not hard, but you HAVE to heal your NPC. It's a small nightmare. (I won't even mention that that quest glitches quite often and the NPCs stop moving, and you can't go on. Ooops, I did anyhow, didn't I?)

Once you get past that mission, things liven up quickly, but it's a real downer at first. I've only managed to put 10-15 hours into it so far, so there's still a chance to have the kind of fun I had in the original. We'll see.

Re:Hmm...

[Masami Eiri]

I just used a horde of NPCs for that mission... (and I wasn't a monk either). Cantha was great for leveling my character though, went from 17-20 in about 2 hour with my R/Me from the old game when I popped over to Cantha. My Assassin went from 1-9 in about the same in the noob area.. helluva lot better than the Ascalon noob area.

Re:Hmm...

[Aladrin]

They did that on purpose. You get to 20th about halfway through the first Guild Wars, and the content from that point on is oriented towards 20th level characters.

With the exception of the newbie island, all the content on Cantha is oriented towards lev 20 characters. They sped up the level up process to get your there quickly.

Many people complain about this, but I think they are the same people that don't enjoy the challenge of making a build and using it wisely. The 20th level missions in the first GW were FAR more fun for me than the early ones.

good review

[Anonymous Coward]

but i have a question.

Are the PvE zones anywhere like the starting zone in the original GW? That was by far the best PvE zone in the game IMO. The rest of the zones were just races from point A to point B, and I hope they tried to do away with that form of gameplay.

360 and Final Fantasy

[0racle]

That said, I don't really understand this title's release for the 360. In essence, this game was only released on the console so that Microsoft could check off a box for the MMOG genre in its launch window library

In a lot of ways it is but who cares. I've played with people on the 360 who first played FFXI for the first time during the free beta and picked up the final retail, I've played with people who picked up the 360 version because they didn't want to wait for their PS2 to die and I've played with people who played it on the PC and like being able to sit on their couch and relax while playing. It's a game and as long as people keep finding it fun they'll play it on what ever platform suits them. Who cares why MS asked SE to port it over.

Besides, I have a feeling MS is trying to do the same thing Sony did when they launched the Playstation and got Square to release FFVII on it instead of the N64.

Re:360 and Final Fantasy

[Guppy06]

"Besides, I have a feeling MS is trying to do the same thing Sony did when they launched the Playstation and got Square to release FFVII on it instead of the N64."

As someone who bought an X360 solely to play FFXI, that would be very nice, but we've already seen FFXIII announced as a PS3 exclusive. They're doing re-releases for the DS and some FF spin-offs for other Nintendo consoles, but S-E will keep the FF core on Sony platforms until either a console tanks or Sony hires Yamauchi.

Re:360 and Final Fantasy

[0racle]

I'm not saying it worked.

Thoughts on FFXI

[RogueyWon]

As a long-term, semi-hardcore FFXI player, I've had mixed feelings about the 360 launch. On the one hand, it's been great that we've had an influx of new players again. It really keeps the game lively, keeps the lower-end economy working properly and staves off the inevitable decline that's going to hit every MMORPG some day.

On the other hand, I can't help but feel that Square-Enix have wasted a big opportunity here. Don't get me wrong - I vastly prefer FFXI to World of Warcraft, and the fact that almost everybody who left FFXI for WoW ended up coming back seems to indicate that a lot of other people feel the same way - but WoW taught everybody some important lessons about MMORPGs that you just can't afford to ignore these days, particularly in terms of inducting new players. The simple, depressing fact is that getting started in FFXI as a new player now is no easier than it was when the game first launched. Which is to say, it's bloody hard. If anything, it's even harder now, as much of the game is becoming geared towards end-game content and prices on newbie gear are much higher than they used to be. The 360 release was an opportunity for S-E to address this; to revamp the hideously outdated quest-log, to put in some easily-identified, tightly structured quests to break newbies into the game and teach them the basics of playing while also getting their low level gear for free and, in short, to make the game FUN to play with a character below level 50, which is something that's always been lacking.

Don't get me wrong, my opinion is that in terms of end-game content, FFXI stomps everything else around. There's challenge, variety and a whole lot of other stuff that's absent from other MMORPG end-games, particularly WoW, and, to cap it all, this is geared for everything from 3 man groups through to 64 man alliances, unlike the WoW focus on ever bigger groups at the top levels. However, if I were just getting started on the 360 version now, I seriously doubt I'd stick with the game long enough to see that.

Also, I know I'm in the minority here, but I personally think that the Treasures of Aht Urhgan expansion *stinks*. It's had an easy ride from the player-base, because it added 3 new jobs, which is what people always shout for in expansions. However, I don't see any of these jobs as adding anything new or exciting to what was on offer before. Frankly, the chances that more than about 0.01% of the player-base had actually experienced everything that the existing 15 jobs had to offer are pretty miniscule. So we get landed with 3 new jobs which suddenly everybody and their dog are playing as and which break the game-balance quite nicely. We also get some of the ugliest zones ever seen in the game. The zones for the previous expansion, Chains of Promathia, were breath-taking visually. It's a bit disappointing to go from that, to wading around in a swamp with blatant copy-pasting of tiles, which is all that ToAU seems to be. Besieged and Assault (new game-modes) have also completely failed to live up to their potential.

Re:Thoughts on FFXI

[oc255]

FFXI:
+photo realism
+if you played any FF series, you know the spells
+lots of jobs
+end game content (I guess if you have the time)
+feeling of being a hardcore MMO player, no easy mode
+lots of expansions (I quit after 2nd one)
+cross platform
+not a lot of lag (usually)
+searching for groups is kinda fun but you have to group. play another game while waiting to play FFXI ... what.
-$1 for a mule (a character to store stuff), $1 for any additional character a month
-registry hacks to change the resolution?
-consolitis. it's severely suffering from the port-feel
-people on ps2 type slow
-wait around for a group (hours), you can't solo
-you can't jump, you collide with everything
-no hints on quests
-you can't make money, farmers everywhere.
-experience loss (hours of work) when you die
-playonline.com is terrible, sony's thing
-about a million players maybe?
-if you can't get a "raise" (which is life or resurrection) then you have to walk forever
-bad for people with jobs

WoW:
+getting to end is actually possible with a day job
+runs fast, is a real PC game
+runs on a Mac
+patching is fast to download because of bittorrent but patching is not perfect
+lots of players
+no level loss, not ever. you just lose money because you have to repair your equipment (durability loss) when you die. not a huge deal.
+economy is really solid, easy to make money
+resting bonuses while you are not playing, so you can play only on the weekends, you get double experience while "rested"
+guilds are better than linkshells although Ctrl+L was a cool shortcut in FFXI, I dunno if you could map a key in WoW like that
+WoW is easier (so much easier) on my relationship with my chica.
+weather effects are awesome
+you can jump (and take falling damage), this is nice rather than being glued to the ground.
++huge number of mods and addon tools written by community. this is a major plus. stuff like, recast fishing pole or "show me the top healer in my group". too many great mods to list.
-end game needs some work but I never hit 75 in FFXI. you had to be in JP to have that kind of headstart on the Americans when I quit FFXI. Huge, huge timesink
-some say it looks cartoony. I agree but think it looks great with FSAA and all that turned up (with beasty PC)
-you will get hated by the FFXI community for selling out or playing "easy mode"
-lag was an issue at one point, server queues were insane.
-patching is annoying but I respect their choice for bittorrent. FFXI probably installs from scratch faster because of patching.
-WoW's official forums are a good way to lose your mind if you are trying to have a productive conversation.
-farmers are around but being rich isn't respected in-game.

Play what you want. My opinions aren't gospel. FFXI was my first MMO, WoW was my second. I've played Guild Wars only slightly. I care about design and game development. I respect WoW more because of many things that I think they've done right. But I wonder if MMOs will make it if games like WoW die off. Certainly, there are other things to do with your time.

Also I wonder if the hype is dying off with WoW, how long until the expansion comes out? Why release an expansion at all? Would people keep playing without the expansion until 2008? Personally, I would suspend my account if any more delays happens. Carrot on a stick of sorts, don't like being the horse.

Re:Thoughts on FFXI

[_xeno_]

The 360 release was an opportunity for S-E to address this; to revamp the hideously outdated quest-log, to put in some easily-identified, tightly structured quests to break newbies into the game and teach them the basics of playing while also getting their low level gear for free and, in short, to make the game FUN to play with a character below level 50, which is something that's always been lacking.

This is my single largest complaint about FFXI: the UI sucks. Now, to be fair, WoW's isn't all that good (although it is better) but WoW has UI mods and so most of the UI problems get resolved by someone. (Even better, Blizzard has frequently added some of the most popular third party features back into the default UI, many times improving on them.)

What I'd really, really, really, like to see Square-Enix do is revitalize Vana'diel by updating the graphics for the PC and XBox360, and to take the time to fix up the flaws in the client. My biggest complaint with FFXI on the PC is that you are disallowed from playing the game in a window. Fortunately there are third-party solutions to this, but those violate the TOS - but I'd rather violate the TOS than be kicked off when some random application decides to pop up a dialog. ("Your mouse's batteries are running low - oh, and your party just died because FFXI disconnected you because it no longer has full screen exclusive mode.")

I really want to enjoy FFXI, I really do, but... Square-Enix really doesn't seem to be interested in evolving FFXI past the limitations of the PS2 on the non-PS2 platforms. The PS2 might not support as advanced a client as the PC or the XBox360, but there's no reason to hold the newer platforms back to the limits of the PS2. Especially when it comes to the UI - the PS2 and XBox360 are limited by the constraint of requiring them to work with just the basic controller. The PC client should take advantage of the keyboard and mouse, and not just remap the PS2 buttons onto the keyboard.

Re:Thoughts on FFXI

[Guppy06]

"Also, I know I'm in the minority here, but I personally think that the Treasures of Aht Urhgan expansion *stinks*. It's had an easy ride from the player-base, because it added 3 new jobs, which is what people always shout for in expansions."

I haven't bothered unlocking the Aht Urhgan jobs yet, but I can say that I prefer it over the Chains of Promathia expansion simply because I can get there. With CoP, I can go to Carpenter's Landing, I can go to Bibiki Bay, and that's about it, since I don't have the right jobs levelled to get into parties to beat the Promyvion bosses (it's apparently real particular what parties can successfully complete the missions). And the boss fights wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the annoying trip to them through level-capped areas; on my last failed attempt I noticed the goblin footprint near the boss monster and laughed, since you have to go through the insanity of putting together a party just to reach it.

At least with the Aht Urhgan zones I can actually explore and, if I have any problems, I know I can just come back a few levels later and bluster my way through. I'm beginning to doubt I'll ever see the Tavnazian Archipelago.

The truth behind the FFXI release

[falcon5768]

It was a Xbox game.

Thats why it seems weird its on the 360, it was never ment for it, it WAS ment for the Xbox but Microsoft and SE couldnt iron out their deal with Xbox LIVE in time. People like to bash Playonline here but the fact was, Playonline is the Japanese version of Xbox LIVE, its been running a bunch of games in Japan for years now, and is still the portal for Everquest II, Fantasy Earth, online play for Dirge of Cerberus and others in Japan. SE didnt want to remove that from Final Fantasy XI because thats actually what your paying for when you pay to play, the Playonline service NOT FFXI (FFXI in reality only costs a dollar a character) Only when Microsoft gave up the reigns on its system a little was SE able to keep their current model.

As for graphically, yeah its showing its age in some spots, (in the new areas though I think its mindblowing, even on the PS2) but I think we have no farther than to look at Nintendo to see that finally people are seeing that graphics doesnt mean everything, and that if a game is enjoyable to people, they wont mind the graphics. Honestly having played WoW and FFXI I like the graphics of FFXI better than the cartoony nature of WoW, but thats me personally.

Re:The truth behind the FFXI release

[springbox]

As for graphically, yeah its showing its age in some spots, (in the new areas though I think its mindblowing, even on the PS2) but I think we have no farther than to look at Nintendo to see that finally people are seeing that graphics doesnt mean everything

Did you check out the character creation screen recently? That had some pretty nice graphics. By comparison, the in game models and textures look incredibly low resolution. It would be nice if they addressed some issues not only with graphic quality but the game always chokes when there are "too many" models to draw at once, and I doubt they're going to be making any major chances to their rendering engine ever.

Re:The truth behind the FFXI release

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd hate to dissapoint you, so FFXI sucks and you're stupid.

Actually, I can prove the last point.

SE didnt want to remove that from Final Fantasy XI because thats actually what your paying for when you pay to play, the Playonline service NOT FFXI (FFXI in reality only costs a dollar a character)

You're a retard. FFXI costs $13/month, plus $1/month for each additional character. PlayOnline is free. You can maintain a PlayOnline account without paying any monthly fee. Kinda like XBox Live Silver, except without being useful.

Honestly having played WoW and FFXI I like the graphics of FFXI better than the cartoony nature of WoW, but thats me personally.

Yeah, you're retarded. FFXI's graphics are just as cartoony as WoW's, except FFXI's look like they were created by a first year art student who's only used watercolors and has no concept of using color. You can describe whole zones in single colors. Gustaburg: beige. Valkrum Dunes: tan. La Theine: mint creme. Jeuno: gray. Bastok: gray. San d'Oria: gray.

Going from FFXI to WoW is an exercise in discovering that your computer actually is capable of vibrant color.

Guild Wars

[Puff of Logic]

Try as I might, I just couldn't really get into Guild Wars. I play WoW a fair bit, and I'm experimenting with EVE-Online, so I'm definitely open to different MMOG experiences, but there's something about GW that turns me off. I strongly suspect that it's the communication issue. For all of its other faults, WoW has a strong sense of community and communication is easy. I enjoy inpromptu pick-up groups in the low-level areas to complete quests, and I've found that many good friends can be made this way. In contrast, Guild Wars doesn't seem to really have that communal sense. Perhaps it's just me, but I find Guild Wars depressing.

Re:Guild Wars

[GmAz]

I love guild wars and recommend it to anyone wanting to enter the MMORPG realm. Though its not a true MMORPG, it helps to start them in the learning process. As soon as I tried WoW, I was hooked. I really want to try Factions but know that I will just quit and go back to WoW. Besides, it took long enough to get to Stone Guard, I want to keep going =P.

The other thing about WoW is the sense of danger. You are out in a world where anyone from the other faction can 'gank' you. I love that. In Guild Wars, that is not present. You are alone in the world, or with your small group. I like the excitment of stalking my prey (I have a 60 Troll Rogue) and attacking.

Re:Guild Wars

[TheKidWho]

Pssh you want sense of danger? Go play EVE-Online where one wrong move and a player pirate will have you lose your 1 billion isk ship which took you one month to deck out with the best gear.

That game is risky, and fun :D

Re:Guild Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

GW is definitely a mixed bag for me. I'm not much interested in PvP, and really only want to do the questing and the main campaign. In theory with GW you can play your way through a linear campaign reminiscent of Baldur's Gate or NWN, moving from quest to quest and chapter to chapter. But in practice, you soon get stuck if you try to accomplish the quests and chapters with just the NPC henchmen for help (their AI is poor and they're one-trick ponies). Sooner or later, you have to get involved with real people.

This is where the "linear campaign" falls apart. Most people have been playing GW for awhile, and may even have played the plotline-advancing "missions" with more than one avatar. They're rarely interested in sitting through the exposition that accompanies the missions, so you frequently get pressured to skip these in-game animations - and then you don't really understand what you have done or why. Not to mention that if things go poorly, your human allies are apt to just bail on you - and they usually won't stick with you from mission to mission so you keep having to seek out new groups of real people to go on missions. You might eventually make a few friends who behave differently, which helps but cannot be counted on to fix the problem.

I suppose this is a better reflection of how things would be in real life, but in a game it's somewhat tedious and annoying. I'd like to like GW better (it looks great, the combat mechanics are fun and the developers have done a really impressive job of tying together the best things about MMOG and leaving the worst out). But I suppose I am just not a MMOGite and I should simply go see what all the buzz is about over Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.

Re:Guild Wars

[Chiisu]

I have to agree here. As much as I love the world and mechanics of Guild Wars, I can't depend on anyone to help me get through quests, I have to have Henchmen(which are rediculously underpowered).

Re:Guild Wars

[Jugalator]

GW however has a PvP system that many believe are much more intricate than what you get from WoW. It's in many cases a tactical real-time battle game set in a fantasy world. And believe me, there *are* suspension in GW when playing a GvG game with your guild mates. :-) I always exit these games with pumped adrenaline levels, and that's good enough tension for me. :-)

Re:Guild Wars

[GmAz]

This is true. I have played the PvP in Guild Wars. I do like hte Battlegrounds in WoW also. They give me the same feeling of an adrenaline rush, just not all the time. What I do prefer is the World PvP aspect. Going into contested territory and doing PvP is way different than in a battleground where you know for a fact there are opposing faction members there. Its just different as I am sure other people know who play different MMO games.

More thoughts here.....

[Anonymous Coward]

http://tuxedo.org/comments.pl?sid=207&cid=532

Thanks,
Kathy

FFXI Post-Mortem

[TJ_Phazerhacki]

I played FFXI the day it came out for the PS2 - On my PC! My friend had obtained the PC version, but wanted to play it on his PS2 (which was actually a better gaming machine than his laptop) and he gave me the CD's and the new ID#'s.

I played for a year and a half, and quit. Alot of my friends along the way had dropped off, and then SE went and ruined my job in the infameous "Ranger Nerf." I had overall enjoyed the experience, but I thought I was done.

I was wrong. 3 months ago, I picked it up again in anticipation of the new expansion, and I will say this: I played both Guild Wars and WoW in the interem, and neither presented the depth or quality of gameplay that FFXI has. I think that one of the biggest complaints about FFXI is the need for a party to gain experience and level; I feel quite the opposite. The game is really based around it's community, and whether it be a terrible party that you laugh about for weeks, or a great LS (guild) in the endgame, the social experience is a nice change of pace from the anti-social communities in so many other games.

The complaints about the dated graphics are valid, but the complaints about the fundamental system are not.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[tukkayoot]

Though the grouping thing annoyed me, it's one of the things I might have come to accept from the game, except FF11 had/has an absolutely horrible UI. Unresponsive and with only minimal customization options. The nail in the coffin for me was ultimately the inability to alt-tab. By the time I quit the game I was disgusted, not necessarily by the gameplay or the game content, but just so utterly frustrated by the straight jacket UI that I grew to simply loathe the game.

I also found the community to be, if anything, a drawback. I encountered far many rude, racist and simply bad players in FF11 than I ever encountered in EverQuest or World of Warcraft (which also certainly have their share of bad eggs, but not nearly to the same degree of FF11). And one thing damaging the community aspect of the game was the inability to have robust communication with something like half of the game's population because of language differences. They didn't even give NA players the option to try to learn and speak with the Japanese in their own language by providing an IME for Japanese characters.

The game had a lot of features that make the game unaccessible to the casual gamer (mandatory grouping, an incessant need to farm to keep gear current and arrows/tools/whatever stocked), the need to quest for many area maps, etc. but a lot of this is appealing to the hardcore so it can't really be called a flaw, but just an aspect of the game that not everyone will appreciate.

The skillschain and magic burst system was cool and I'm still waiting for an MMO that isn't Final Fantasy XI to do something similar. The cutscenes and storylines were also fun to follow. I liked the game's art style in most respects, and am a little sad I never did acquire all that Red Mage pimp gear. Taru are just insanely adorable.

I never really got the name though. "Final Fantasy XI"? Why not just call it Final Fantasy Online? Now with FF12 coming out, FF11 sounds as dated as it is actually becoming. Will Final Fantasy XI still be running when Final Fantasy XV-2 is out? Heh.

I wish Square-Enix would revamp FF11 just a bit to be more accessible to casual gamers, with a robust, customizable interface for PC users, the ability to alt-tab without crippling the game enabled and rework the exp system so you're not so heavily penalized for having one player a few levels higher than the rest of the group (1 level 41 in a group of level 44's isn't bad, but 1 level 44 in a group of level 41's has an incredibly negative impact on your exp.) That, with a few graphical upgrades/reskins and it would be a great modern MMO. Oh, get rid of PlayOnline too, and don't make the install/registration process such a mess for new users.

I don't this stuff happening though, Square-Enix is very stubborn.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[CashCarSTAR]

Actually I quit FFXI for the EXACT same reason, the inability to alt-tab. There was just something about it that made the game feel sufficating.

I currently play Guild Wars, mostly for the PvP aspects. I'm in a good PvP guild, Emergency Exit [EXIT] ftw, with some good players and good personalities.

The Factions PvE content, there's a bit less than in Prophecies, but what's there is WAY more developed and interesting.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[Anonymous Coward]

The game is really based around it's community, and whether it be a terrible party that you laugh about for weeks, or a great LS (guild) in the endgame, the social experience is a nice change of pace from the anti-social communities in so many other games.

ROTFLMMFAO

I'm sorry, but WHAT did you just say? FFXI has, bar none, the most anti-social community in the history of gaming. Go play other games if you don't believe me. Either you are within the FFXI community, or you are THE ENEMY. Have questions? Tough shit.

The complaints about the dated graphics are valid, but the complaints about the fundamental system are not.

Bull-fucking-shit. Let's see, where can we start...

1. Forced Grouping with Shitty Search UI. I'm willing to accept that forced grouping is OK, the entire point behind multiplayer games is, after all, multiple players. However, FINDING a group was nearly impossible, thanks to the incredibly shitty search UI. There's no way for a group to flag "we want a healer" and then to have a player search for groups looking for healers.

2. "Repeat the Newbie Content" Job System. Thanks to the jobs system mentioned in the story, you'll be seeing a LOT of the newbie content. Again and again and again. You have two jobs, kinda like Guild Wars, except you have to level each of them individually. Despite frequent claims to the contrary, each job has one subjob that works with it, and you'd damned better enjoy playing the entire chain! (Want to be a Paladin? You'd damned better enjoy playing a Warrior and a Ninja! Want to be a Summoner? You'd damned better enjoy playing a White Mage and a Black Mage!)

3. Inflation. New players have no practically no chance of earning enough money to play for even the simplest of gear.

4. Travel time. Mounts must be rented, and the price set is based on the economy (see #3). You then must manually control the stupid mount until you finally finish walking through the newbie zones to whereever you REALLY wanted to be.

5. "NOW WHAT?!" Quest System. Quests frequently give vague and misleading information when received. Frequently, the NPC won't repeat this information (Chowderhead: "Have you found my lost coin yet?"), and the quest log will contain something like "Help Chowderhead find his lost coin" with no clue as to how do it. ("Well, when I got it, I remember he wanted to send me to a zone that was far too high level for me. Now which one was it?...") When finally done, most quests provide less than worthless rewards.

But some quests provide essentials. Either complete the quest to find out, or hope that you won't get screamed at to fuck off and die when you ask other players.

6. "Dammit, There Goes 5 Hours" Leveling System. You die, you lose 10% of your XP to your current level. Lose enough, you level down. At higher levels, 10% of a level can easily take five hours of play.

7. "Dammit, There Goes 50 Hours" Crafting System. When you fail (and it's a 10% base failure rate that only goes up from there) you can potentially lose all ingredients. Some ingredients take hours to get as they are rare drops off rare spawns.

8. "Hold Up, Our Healer's Watching a Movie" Cutscene System. Nothing like delaying a half-hour while your other party members get through yet another unskippable cutscene. (Seriously, WTF, Squeenix?!)

I'm sure I can come up with more if you really want, but FFXI is fundamentally flawed as a game and isn't worth anyone's time. Anyone saying otherwise has obviously never tried better games and doesn't realize what they're missing.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[Sage Gaspar]

I wish Square-Enix would revamp FF11 just a bit to be more accessible to casual gamers, with a robust, customizable interface for PC users, the ability to alt-tab without crippling the game enabled and rework the exp system so you're not so heavily penalized for having one player a few levels higher than the rest of the group (1 level 41 in a group of level 44's isn't bad, but 1 level 44 in a group of level 41's has an incredibly negative impact on your exp.) That, with a few graphical upgrades/reskins and it would be a great modern MMO. Oh, get rid of PlayOnline too, and don't make the install/registration process such a mess for new users.

Exactly. The interface was painful. I couldn't use the mouse for 90% of the things I wanted to use it for. I couldn't play in a windowed mode. I couldn't tweak up graphics as high as I'd have liked to. I found the menus clunky and had a hell of a time with gear and comparing it (can't remember exactly why). You're dropped into the game with little-to-no instruction.

PlayOnline registration actually, swear to god, confused the hell outta me, and I've navigated a lot of clumsy registration systems in my time. When I quit the game for a couple months and wanted to come back, they told me that my PlayOnline ID or some shit had expired and I'd need to buy a new copy of the game if I wanted to continue playing. Thanks, but no thanks.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[Anonymous Coward]

You can run FFXI under a third-party windower program now. It breaks the EULA, but meh.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[tukkayoot]

PlayOnline registration actually, swear to god, confused the hell outta me, and I've navigated a lot of clumsy registration systems in my time. When I quit the game for a couple months and wanted to come back, they told me that my PlayOnline ID or some shit had expired and I'd need to buy a new copy of the game if I wanted to continue playing. Thanks, but no thanks.

Yeah, that's another thing that disgusted me about, S-E. MMOs aren't exactly known for their stellar customer service, but no other game to me seemed to scream at you like a spurned lover, "FINE, LEAVE, BUT DON'T EXPECT FOR ME TO WELCOME YOU BACK LATER!" This is the vibe I got from the fact that they have a policy of deleting characters on inactive accounts after as few as 3 months. Completely killing your PlayOnline registration is something I'd never heard of is even more ridiculous.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[blackbeaktux]

I can see why you decided to go A/C - just another drive-by bleating. Let me tickle your fancy by biting....

FFXI has, bar none, the most anti-social community in the history of gaming. Go play other games if you don't believe me. Either you are within the FFXI community, or you are THE ENEMY.

Never have I felt the community at large take this Bushist stance - you're with us, or you're with the terr'ists. Being polite and considerate when you posit questions to a random FFXI player (as opposed to asking for money, a PL, or something you are just too lazy to do yourself) elicits a considerably more favourable response than what you would get from a random WoW player, IMO. But then again, by the tone of your post, I'm not entirely convinced you spoke in a manner that could evoke a favourable response. It's unfortunate your conclusion on the community as a whole is "anti-social." For shame.

Forced Grouping with Shitty Search UI. I'm willing to accept that forced grouping is OK, the entire point behind multiplayer games is, after all, multiple players. However, FINDING a group was nearly impossible, thanks to the incredibly shitty search UI. There's no way for a group to flag "we want a healer" and then to have a player search for groups looking for healers.

/sea all inv 35-37
Very difficult - even a steeper learning curve than the linux command line. Even better, you can set comments that describes your attributes, like alternate subjobs, exp tnl, equip... you know, the things PT leaders look for that makes you stand out.
And since 98% of PTs beyond 32 form in Jeuno, you can run "/sea region 35-37" to find out what parties are forming at the time and see if you can slip in somewhere. I realize once again that it's very difficult, but with a few taps of the keys, you can do useful things. Maybe spamming "/sh WHM33/THF15 LFP LOLz! Invite me, f00ls!" every 30 secs turned you off to everyone in the zone.
Sometimes, there won't be enough people to form a functional PT - that's fine, and there's not much you can do about it. But there's also a lot more you can do to make the most of what you have to make things easier for you. Don't blame others for not being able to do it well.

"Repeat the Newbie Content" Job System. Thanks to the jobs system mentioned in the story, you'll be seeing a LOT of the newbie content. [...] Despite frequent claims to the contrary, each job has one subjob that works with it, and you'd damned better enjoy playing the entire chain! (Want to be a Paladin? You'd damned better enjoy playing a Warrior and a Ninja! Want to be a Summoner? You'd damned better enjoy playing a White Mage and a Black Mage!)

So you want to be a SMN75 just because you already have a WAR75? /meh. Don't see why you don't see this as an opportunity to collest beastmen seals and farm for money. Valkurm Dunes sucks, but it's pass quickly enough. [...] Also on this tangent, levelling your subjob to 37 (supposing you're taking your main to 75) is quick enough, and you can also do it on the cheap. Raising jobs until 40 isn't time-intensive, so once again, I fail to see what the problem is. And god forbid you be forced to play a job you don't like, even on a temporary basis.

Inflation. New players have no practically no chance of earning enough money to play for even the simplest of gear.

Inflation is a problem. But not for entry-level gear. Just buy them from the NPC vendors - unless you didn't do your research and went straight to the Auction House. So if you can sell lowbie drops on an inflation-happy market and buy your gear at a low-fixed-price NPC, what do you get?
If you're talking about mid-to-end-game gear, yes, inflation is a problem. But hopefuly you've been wise enough to find a way to make money by then, and learn to control your spending. And remember, some people confuse "want" with "need." This type of thinking usually spoils the fun for everyone.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[Anonymous Coward]

See? SEE? This is what I'm talking about when I talk about hostile community.
 
/sea all inv 35-37
Very difficult - even a steeper learning curve than the linux command line.

And, for a VIDEO GAME, it's also complete fucking bullshit. A party leader should be able to pop open a window, check off a list of jobs and a level range they're looking for, and be done with it. Then other players could search for parties that are looking for players like them. Maybe even have the system alert the party leader when someone matching their query flags LFG.

But, nope. Instead you have to spam "/sea all inv 35-37" which is about as intuitive as the menu button being the minus key on the numpad and healing using the asterisk on the numpad. ("My laptop doesn't have a numpad." "Change your keyboard setting!" "How?!" "Go to the menu..." "HOW?!!" "Press minus on the numpad!" "YOU DIE NOW!")

And god forbid you be forced to play a job you don't like, even on a temporary basis.

This concept always seems to evade FFXI players, so I'll bold it in the false hope that you can get it through your skull:

IT'S A MOTHER-FUCKING VIDEO GAME. VIDEO GAMES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUN. If I wanted to be miserable, I'd go create a Live Journal and listen to Coldplay.

Yes, when playing a video game, God or at least common fucking sense should dictate that the amount of times I be forced to do things I don't want to do should be kept to a minimum. Square-Enix and FFXI players seem to think that doing boring stuff to do fun stuff makes the fun stuff "more fun" when in reality it just makes the people willing to do that FUCKING IDIOTS.

And remember, some people confuse "want" with "need." This type of thinking usually spoils the fun for everyone.

I'm sorry, I enjoy actually hitting enemies and not having spells resisted. Yes, it's "need", not "want". I once ran into a Red Mage who thought Dispel was optional at level 45. It's fun dieing five times because someone couldn't afford a spell.

Don't feel like responding to this, other than to say "Look it up" And your Linkshell is your friend

Sorry, but it's bullshit when people answer than in World of Warcraft, and it's bullshit when FFXI tries to pull that shit. If it's a quest, I should be able to figure out where to go on my own. I should most certianly be able to see all the information the quest giver originally gave me - in WoW, I can, in FFXI, I can't.

God forbid some end-guild synths have hard-to-obtain ingredients. I mean, venemous claws should be sold right alongside the starter city vendors!

Ah, yes, the other famous FFXI player falacy: "I like things being ridiculously hard!"

No, honestly, I have no problem with end-game synths requiring hard-to-obtain ingredients. That's fine.

I DO have a problem with the fact that you can LOSE those materials due to synth failures. Some materials should be immune to synth failures.

I've tried coming up with a list of things FFXI did right, I really have, but to this day, the list remains completely empty. There is literally (and I do mean that literally, it's not hyperbole) NOTHING that FFXI did right. At all.

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[Guppy06]

"Exactly. The interface was painful. I couldn't use the mouse for 90% of the things I wanted to use it for."

Not a Linux fan, are we?

Re:FFXI Post-Mortem

[Justus]

"FINE, LEAVE, BUT DON'T EXPECT FOR ME TO WELCOME YOU BACK LATER!" This is the vibe I got from the fact that they have a policy of deleting characters on inactive accounts after as few as 3 months.

I totally agree with you on that count, it's absolutely retarded that they delete your characters after three months--worse, they don't even actually delete them, they just make them inaccessible to you. That's right, you can in fact call PlayOnline support and have a character reactivated up to three months after it's initially deleted (whether you pushed the button yourself or they automatically did it), so you have a total of six months to reactivate. But wait, there's more! Even though they refuse to restore a character after more than six months, they've run a promotion twice now (it's currently ongoing, even) called Return Home to Vana'diel that will allow you to restore any character. They clearly have the data stored, they just decide arbitrarily to restrict your access to it. Go figure.

Completely killing your PlayOnline registration is something I'd never heard of is even more ridiculous.

They don't actually do this, but their whole PlayOnline system is so confusing I'm not at all surprised some people might think that. The confusing thing is that when you sign up for FFXI, you actually get two accounts: one, your in-game account, is what you'd expect, and the other one is an account with PlayOnline. The PlayOnline account is considered a separate, free account that happens to be required to play FFXI. However, when you cancel FFXI, you're also likely to cancel PlayOnline too, since it's referred to as a "subscription." You can reactivate your PlayOnline account at any time with the original registration details (no need to purchase another copy), but you do get something to the effect of "Your PlayOnline account has been cancelled, yadda yadda" when you try to log in. Like I said, it's totally retarded.

Now, all that being said, I do enjoy FFXI. I've been an off-and-on player since the NA PC release (having played numerous other MMOs like City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, A Tale in the Desert, etc, during the off times) and it does keep me coming back. I'm definitely far from hardcore--my highest job is level 67--and I wouldn't play it without my friends, but it does offer a much more compelling group dynamic than any of the other MMOs I've played. Unfortunately, that means its solo game is essentially non-existent, and it definitely shows its age after four years on the market without any substantial engine changes, not to mention the fact that its control scheme on the PC is essentially mapping your keyboard to a controller (it's actually a reasonable layout, once you get used to it, but don't expect, well, any mouse use). In the end, whether or not you enjoy FFXI depends heavily on your personality and the people you play it with. Ideally, you'd start with five like-minded friends whose playstyles happen to map into a nice party setup (ha!); in that case, I'd say it's the perfect MMO.

Okay, I'm done laughing at that last sentence now.

Repeat After Me:

[Dragoon412]

Guild Wars is not a MMOG.

This is in no way meant to disparage Guild Wars. It's a fine game with some really cool ideas. But it is simply not a MMOG. Even the developers have said it's not a MMOG. From their FAQ:

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience.

It's just a pet peeve of mine. MMOGs typically entail a large, explorable, public, cooperative world. Guild Wars is highly instanced. The only public areas are small towns that only serve as staging areas for the instances. Guild Wars' gameplay actually has more in common with Diablo 2 than it does a standard MMO, like EverQuest.

Okay, done being pedantic, now. ;)

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Kingrames]

massively multiplayer.
check.

online.
check.

game.
check.

It's not an MMORPG, because THAT term entails long boring grinds and "the player with the most toys wins."

But it is an MMOG. or MMO for short.
Mod the parent down, -1 failed pedantry, please. ;)

Re:Repeat After Me:

[darrylo]

It's not an MMORPG, because THAT term entails long boring grinds and "the player with the most toys wins."

Huh? You obviously haven't been playing the second (latest) chapter, "Guild Wars Factions". There are two elite missions that are accessible only to the two guilds with the most "faction", and the only way to get that is to grind, grind, grind. The vast majority of players will probably not have access to those missions, due to the massive faction farming/grinding that's going on.

Perhaps ANet will change this, but I wouldn't bet on it. They don't seem to do anything about the illegal bots, and so I don't see them doing anything about this, either (example: the majority of "players" in Elona Reach are bots, running the same pattern over and over, and it's been this way for a while).

Guild Wars is not a MMOG

[SEAL]

While you have to play Guild Wars online, it really isn't an MMOG. Every time you enter an area where combat is possible, you enter a separate instance that is private to your group. So you are never in a fighting situation with more than a handful of people.

Contrast that to, say, World of Warcraft. You could potentially run into any other person on the server when you are outdoors.

Guild Wars is really just Diablo 2 with some clever camouflage to make it appear to be a seamless world. But towns are really just Diablo 2 chatrooms, and the level of interaction with other players in the combat areas of the game is small.

Re:Guild Wars is not a MMOG

[SEAL]

Apparently by the time I hit submit, my post was redundant. I type too slow. Oh well at least someone agrees with me ;)

Scary.

[Anonymous Coward]

MMORPGS are a horrorshow to me. Millions of reclusive, stuck-in-home social misfits whose only interaction with other people is based in an outlandish fantasyland. They, literally, live in a fantasy their lives. They limit themselves.

I know there are plenty of people that are able to balance their lives, but there are plenty who are not. Ive got friends who dropped off the earth when they picked up a MMORPG game. Months later, the only thing they have to say for their time is "WoW."

Wow, indeed. Im scared for them. Some are on paxil, some are on prozac, many are unemployed. I beg, I plead, I ask politely, I invite them out, but no. Theyve got something going on with their guild that they would rather do then go for a walk in the park, play catch, or just go out to a store. When I do hang out with them, they are boring individuals, with nothing to add. I can tell the game sucked their will to live in reality.

This will probably be ignored, or modded down, but this is a SERIOUS problem. Reclusive, social misfits dependant on a fantasyworld is yet another accurate prediction by scifi authors of the past.

I love games, but I know that becoming so focused on any one thing, especially one fantasy, is unhealthy. You need to diversify your life, get outside and experience real things. What will you think of yourself if, after years, all youve accomplished is meaningless advancement in a false fantasyland?

These are things to reflect on. I'd also like any advice on getting these people back into the real world. Back into careers, back into contributing, back into living. Its like the walking dead, with how pale they are. Help me help them help themsleves.

Re:Scary.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, they are scary and dangerous. One week of playing an MMORPG and all the trees in my neighborhood died.

Re:Scary.

[end15]

I can see several points to this issue that need to be interrogated.

    How many people who are experiencing this type of social phobia were already prone to it before the game became the focus of their lives? It seems to me for those who are agoraphobic (or another ailment) this is something that could be very helpful. In some ways it allows people who would otherwise have almost no contact with others a chance to have a social experience however limited it is. In some cases (although very rare) a person could actually manage to be more productive online than in real life. In Second Life one could actually generate some income via the virtual world. I'm not certain that this is the best way to go but how many data entry jobs just have one sitting in front of a computer all day without any contact with others? Would that be so different?

For those who are have developed an addiction and disappeared from real life social circles because of it, it becomes more difficult to ascertain solutions. The truth is that we have had this issue with television long before now. I believe that every person has to choose for themselves how they want to spend their time. Although it may be frightening to see someone slip into the machine, as it were, that's their choice. On top of that I've seen many people slip into mindless television watching.

On the flip side I have friend who lives very far away. I like the idea of being able to meet them in a virtual world and do activities. It's not better than the real thing but it's cheaper than a plane ticket.

The real issue then sticks out clearly to me. In real life there is not enough of a public space (especially in urban centers). We are either on the streets or consuming. There needs to be a balance, a place where people can meet and have meaningful exchanges in real life. The model used in the United States is consumer driven and that makes it very difficult to build communities. I think of both Mexico and Europe (as I've experienced them). They have huge public squares in every town. On top of that people actually gather as a community in these squares nightly.

Thanks,
Dore Dormir

Re:Scary.

[nosredna]

Having played a fair number of these games, I've actually found that the bulk of players I've interacted with are college students (I started playing these games because several of my good friends in the dorms were playing, and it was just an extra social layer for us), people with full-time jobs, siblings (or parents/children) playing together because they live several states apart, or other similar arrangements.

Sure, there are a few who are the social misfits and so on, but these are the minority, and there's no real difference between their living in seclusion in games and living in seclusion in meatspace, which those misfits are likely to do instead of living online in their fantasy world. It can be argued that there's a benefit to their being in the online fantasy world, because they're forced into social interaction for any high-end achievement in almost any of the games (although no replacement for 'real' social interaction, this can be quite useful), and with the possibility of leadership opportunities in a consequence-free situation, they might actually gain themselves a bit of confidence for the real world.

Re:Scary.

[Sage Gaspar]

Howsabout I help you help yourself stop trying to help people that don't need it?

If I hold down a career that makes me enough money to survive and also contributes to the knowledgebase of society more than Programmer X. Websitedesign, why does it matter to you if I want to spend my free time in front of a computer or at the park? Obviously your friends prefer their computer to you. Do you feel threatened?

Everyone in the end looks back on their lives and wonders if they've really accomplished anything. And the deeper you get into philosophy, the more you start questioning if you're really going to find a meaningful accomplishment in anything you do. You're taking up this crusade because it makes you feel like you're doing something positive. It gives you self-righteousness. It confirms your view of a meaningful life.

I stopped going out with my friends in large part recently because, frankly, I've been bored going to the same old parties, having the same drunken conversations, pretending there's some deeper meaning where there really isn't. I'm not hiding from the world. I did not suddenly develop a social phobia in my twenty-second year on this world. And the patronizing kiddie-freud analysis that people try to subject me to with those conclusions (like you're doing to your friends) is one of the #1 reasons that I really don't want to hang out with them. If I told them the truth, that I'm bored with them, that I spend more time trying to entertain them than being entertained, that I think their deep philosophies and purposes and meanings are shallow, I don't think they'd want me around much longer. But I can't quite bring myself to do that.

Re:Scary.

[Anonymous Coward]

This isnt a matter of them preferring their computers to me. Friends come and go in life, thats just how it is. This is a matter of their lives being seriously negatively impacted.

Several friends have been fired from their jobs, and put on medication almost immediatly following the start of their WoW obsession.

Its to the point where I simply avoid them because, as you said, they bore me. That does not mean I am not concerned for their general well being. Ive seen their negative physical, emotional, and spiritual reactions to WoW, and I worry.

Its like if a friend became addicted to hard drugs. Just because they prefer their hard drugs to a life, doesnt make it right. Im not going to march in there and unplug their computers, as they are free to do as they wish, I just want them to reflect more on their lives.

As you said, you hold down a job, pay your bills, etc. The people I am discussing are no longer able to do these simple things. One of them has cast themselves into a horrible depression you would have to see to believe. Its like a scary drug den, walking in on him playing WoW. Pizza boxes and empty soda cans everywhere. Its like something out of a movie. He lives in squalor, and has torn through most of his savings. He is disintegrating.

Am I being purely altruistic? Of course not. But I think you are trying to downplay the seriousness of this particular situation. He is using WoW to escape from his depression, rather then facing it.

Re:Scary.

[Anonymous Coward]

My friends bore me too. However, I've found that the one social thing I've not lost interest in is trying to get the female ones into bed. Maybe you should have a go at that - it's not wise to become too isolated.

Re:Scary.

[libelec]

/kuak! My first post in Slashdot. I agree with Scary. Is it so unbelievable that someone can spend more than a day in front of the PC or iMac or whatever playing and enjoing a nice videogame? Do we lose our soules becasue of this? Does the Bible condemn the videogaming by saying "You Shall not refuse invitations from thy friend above videogaming"? (sorry if I offended any Xtians, wasn't my intention). Anyway, refering to the topic. I read a comment (one of the only 10 I read, I'm amazed by the large quantity of comments in this post and web or blog) that said that he or she had sometimes felt happy of not having downloaded WoW, because he considers FFXI better (my conception of what you wrote). I think different. WoW was/is not only a referent, a begginer and the father of al MMOG's. It's one of few that convines great graphics (with the apropiate video card), very good scenarios, characters and story, making you domain not only the fighting aspect of the game, but the strategical part, by making you convine races, jobs and abilities throught the game. I think the FFXI, although it hits in many other aspects, and wouldn't fit with the former FF's, strikes in this one. Guild of Wars is for me unknown. I hasn't come to Argentina, as far as I know, so I couldn't prove it yet. From screenshots, I suppose it's very similar to Knight, which is very good as well.

Re:Scary.

[Anonymous Coward]

But you have to understand, that's not the fault of the game but instead the fault of the person. There are plenty of MMORPG players (including myself) who are completely normal and have handles on their lives. I may be an avid FFXI player, but I work and I contribute money to my family (I'm only 19), I have an active social life, and I am doing extremely well in school.

So if you're so concerned about your friend, stop misplacing the blame (like everyone's favorite Jack Thompson) and get off your ass to go help him.

pardus - free & fun

[morekicks]

Pardus is a free Massive Multiplayer Online Browser Game (MMOBG) playing in a futuristic universe where traders, pirates and other pilots of various races and factions strive to gain wealth and fame in space. it's been started by a couple of students from the technical university vienna and has grown in the last two years to 5000 active players. it's simple but fun, takes only 15-30min time / day and for those of you remembering amiga console games ... we'll it's kind of retro. try it

Re:pardus - free & fun

[morekicks]

well here's the link, for those of you interested by now. www.pardus.at

GW: Factions Is Not Good

[Salty Moran]

I would like to point out that within the Guild Wars fanbase, Factions has been met with a great deal of outright anger over a number of problems:

1. Compared to the original Guild Wars, despite costing the same, you get SIGNIFICANTLY less content. When you buy one of the chapters, you get 4 character slots. When you add on another chapter, you only get 2 more slots (e.g. - you double your cost, but you only get 50% more character space). The map is also much smaller.

2. The problem with character slots above means that your storage is limited. The original GW had an abundance of items, so storage was already problematic. The fact that if you combine chapters you get a diminishing return on character space compounds the existing storage problem a great deal. ArenaNet has claimed many times now that a fix is in progress for this.

3. Many people have complained about the "delivery boy" syndrome Factions suffers from. many of the quests, especially early on, require that you run messages or items from one person to another. Because there is now no way to explore on your own (see #4 and #5), this often means literally having to slog through dull, repetitious fights to do the quest.

4. In the first chapter, many people enjoyed exploring on their own and opened up areas by simply running around the map. In Factions, this is not possible as they have locked gates placed around Cantha that only open at the completion of missions (only six missions were actually necessary in Prophecies to complete the game).

5. Monsters were not very challenging and were easy to avoid in some places in Prophecies. In an attempt to solve this, many patrols were overlapped in Cantha and given a very wide range of movement. Unfortunately, this means that it's not uncommon to submit to a very large and growing group of enemies because other patrols came into range from far off while you were battling another group.

And, of course, the main problem:

6. GRIND.

In Prophecies, many people chose to grind for gold and items, but it was not required. In Factions, because of Alliances, the only way to get to many of the missions is:

a) To join a large guild - a daunting task as groups of trusted players solidify - so you can be part of a large alliance

b) Grind out "faction" points for your chosen side in the Canthan war to contribute to your Alliance so that you can retain control over towns - the only way you can play certain high level areas ("Elite" missions) is if you are part of the Alliance holding the related town, which requires these Faction points.

I would say Factions is an enormous disappoint. At guildwarsguru.com/forum you can find many, many people who agree.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[TrickFred]

...If I had mod points, you'd get them.

A.Net is trying to force everyone into PvP, and they seem to be of the mindset that everyone wants to PvP, they just don't know it yet. That's why they made so many of the changes they did. They were honestly surprised that many people only wanted to play PvE-style, and did not care for fighting other people. They could have reacted by creating a more PvE-friendly game, but their PvP short-sightedness (along with not caring about the character slot or storage issues) has turned myself, and several friends off from the game.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[dargon]

You make a valid couple of points about the style of quests etc, that said, the population of fan forums is very small compared to the number of people in the game. Of that population on the forums, it's actually a fairly small but very vocal minority that is bitching about things. I read guru very regularly, and as of this posting here, have 1337 posts in the forums so I'm familiar with what people are saying. Don't get me wrong, Factions has it's issues, so did Prophecies when it was released. Are there unhappy people? Yes. Are they the majority? Hell no. I'm really enjoying Factions myself and while I think a few things need adjustment, I'll buy chapter 3 when it's released in approx 6 months.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to point out that within the Guild Wars fanbase, Factions has been met with a great deal of outright anger over a number of problems:

1. Compared to the original Guild Wars, despite costing the same, you get SIGNIFICANTLY less content. When you buy one of the chapters, you get 4 character slots. When you add on another chapter, you only get 2 more slots (e.g. - you double your cost, but you only get 50% more character space). The map is also much smaller.

Don't be a retard. They don't charge a monthly fee. They make their money selling character slots! This summer they are going to start selling extra character slots for $10 a pop. You apparently want everything for free. They have to make money somehow because they aren't charging you $10-15 per month.

2. The problem with character slots above means that your storage is limited. The original GW had an abundance of items, so storage was already problematic. The fact that if you combine chapters you get a diminishing return on character space compounds the existing storage problem a great deal. ArenaNet has claimed many times now that a fix is in progress for this.

With a backpack, 2 bags, a belt on all 6 characters, plus a joint bank account... maybe you are just hording junk.

3. Many people have complained about the "delivery boy" syndrome Factions suffers from. many of the quests, especially early on, require that you run messages or items from one person to another. Because there is now no way to explore on your own (see #4 and #5), this often means literally having to slog through dull, repetitious fights to do the quest.

Now you are complaining about 2 things that are totally unrelated. GW is not a MMORPG, you do not have to do any of the quests.

Second, you can't run through all the zones, because that's how people cheat their level 3 characters to the end zones in the first campaign. If you want to see all the new zones, you have to do the missions (not quests) and live through the storyline like you were meant to. If you played the first game, then you would have known this.

4. In the first chapter, many people enjoyed exploring on their own and opened up areas by simply running around the map. In Factions, this is not possible as they have locked gates placed around Cantha that only open at the completion of missions (only six missions were actually necessary in Prophecies to complete the game).

5. Monsters were not very challenging and were easy to avoid in some places in Prophecies. In an attempt to solve this, many patrols were overlapped in Cantha and given a very wide range of movement. Unfortunately, this means that it's not uncommon to submit to a very large and growing group of enemies because other patrols came into range from far off while you were battling another group.

OMG you are going to have to use your tiny little brain and pay attention to the patrol routes. It's just so much worse thant the typical mmorpg where mobs magically spawn right behind you.

6. GRIND.

In Prophecies, many people chose to grind for gold and items, but it was not required. In Factions, because of Alliances, the only way to get to many of the missions is:

a) To join a large guild - a daunting task as groups of trusted players solidify - so you can be part of a large alliance

b) Grind out "faction" points for your chosen side in the Canthan war to contribute to your Alliance so that you can retain control over towns - the only way you can play certain high level areas ("Elite" missions) is if you are part of the Alliance holding the related town, which requires these Faction points.

There never has been and never will be a grind in GW. If you play the game naturally, then all of that stuff will come naturally.

I would say Factions is an enormous disappoint. At guildwarsguru.com/forum you can find many, many people who agree.

I hang out there all the time and you are full of shit.
People are always going to complain. But GW is a good game, and there is little to complain about in it. You haven't made any of the good complaints that could be made.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[obi]

I think you should speak for yourself. So you don't find it enjoyable. That's a shame.

However, practically everyone of my friends are having fun with the new chapter.

1) Map being smaller might be true, but isn't stopping me from having fun nonetheless. And the two vs four additional slots I don't mind at all.

2) Storage space: sell your stuff already then, you hoarder :). I have a hard time believing your 6 characters with max capacity are loaded to the brim with rare items you just can't live without.

3) I agree with that, some of the quests seem a bit pointless. I guess it is a challenge to keep being original and interesting.

4) don't have this problem, either; I very often play alone, and do explore.

5) I find this a plus rather than a minus. If a group gets reinforcements, you have to as a group know you can deal with it, or know you have to bail out and recharge. The outcome of fights, even in PvE should be a bit unpredictable.

6) I see your point, and it's true that small guilds may have it harder (I'm in a very small one myself). But I think it's partly by design - there's a social element involved if you want to do certain things.

I guess it's a matter of finding mature players that don't take themselves and the game to seriously, and just want to have fun.

Factions is not a disappointment to me - I doubt however you'll see many people like me posting on guildwarsguru; Is it perfect? Most definitely not. Sometimes I get annoyed at changes they introduce (I was a bit annoyed when they nerfed the MM, however I got over that very soon). But when I take a step back I realise I really like it, despite some of its flaws.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[Salty Moran]

I would like everybody to note, further, that the simplistic insults and immature behavior of the parent poster very accurately reflect many of the people in PvP in Guild Wars, which is another common complaint among players: the number of childish greifers who have overrun the game (the common joke is to ask whether or not you've stumbled into a Counterstrike server by mistake).

I raised my complaints, and those complaints are echoed by many others in many posts on many forums. If you disagree, fine. I'm not saying you should stop playing the game if you enjoy it, and if the issues I brought up are not of concern to you, feel free to buy it and enjoy.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[gwhenning]

I actually agree with the original poster that factions is NOWHERE near as good a game as prophecies was. The last two updates were done for free and added just as much as factions. I realize that they need to make money, but I would have rather paid $15 each that had 2 free and paid $45 for one that disappoints me. The two free updates had me looking forward to the pay for play version, but I don't know how much I'd shell out for next year's version after looking at factions.

It's true that you get fewer character slots IF you combine your prophecies and factions accounts, and you don't get any more storage for the extra slots. To me, it's kind of like the marraige tax. You get 4 slots each, but when you combine your accounts you get a total of 6.

The messenger syndrome got to me. First, there are many quests that start off with a character dialog between several NPCs, and you can't do anything until they finish talking and assign a quest to you. It wouldn't be so bad if there was a way to speed up the process, but they talk on a timed basis so you can't even dismiss each characters dialog when you're finished reading it and start the next character's dialogue. Also, in the training session on the first island there is a part where you have to go into an arena and "train" against an NPC. When you are done you have to leave the training arena to talk to the NPC that sent you in for training, grab the next training assignment, go back into the arena, defeat the master and repeat something like 10 times. Why can't all the teachers be in the arena along with the first NPC so you can get through all your training without going through something like 20 load screens. (one going in and one going out.)

I loved prophecies, but factions felt a little out of place comparitively. I will continue to play it to completion, but it isn't anywhere near as good as the original, although it is beautiful to look at.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[Jugalator]

The map is also much smaller.

The Factions map is however much more used than the Prophecies map, with the outposts and PvP and PvE areas alike being much more condensed. So there's essentially less running around in explorables and shorter distances between the missions and quests you can do.

(only six missions were actually necessary in Prophecies to complete the game).

I think most players however agree on that it's the missions that are the most fun, not the explorable areas, so I can't really see how this is a *down* side. I personally got *very* tired of the long ways you had to travel through in Prophecies (either via missions or explorables), and much prefer Factions faster level progression and closer areas (i.e. my map comment above). Earlier getting to level 20 means earlier being free in what you want to do, instead of being nannied through a long storyline like in Factions.

I also prefer Faction's looser skill reward system, where all skill rewards in Prophecies were preset by the designers. Now you get to purchase them yourself, and the skill rewards are adjusted to make them much easier to purchase than before as well.

I also haven't noticed many problems with monsters in Factions; in fact, a lot of the content is playable with AI henchmen, which is an indication of its simplicity. "Hard" stuff may need 1 or 2 retries with a human party. Big deal.

the only way you can play certain high level areas ("Elite" missions) is if you are part of the Alliance holding the related town, which requires these Faction points.

Yes, however this is obviously offered as an incentive to play the game.

I would say Factions is an enormous disappoint. At guildwarsguru.com/forum you can find many, many people who agree.

Of course, because people satisfied play the game and don't really post as much positive things on a forum. :-) For the same reason, it usually looks like a new driver release is super bugged when looking at a driver discussion forum, but that's because basically only those disappointed or having problems post.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[Jugalator]

instead of being nannied through a long storyline like in Factions

Should be "Prophecies" here, of course. ;-)

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[Jugalator]

A.Net is trying to force everyone into PvP, and they seem to be of the mindset that everyone wants to PvP, they just don't know it yet.

Huh? Factions offer the new faction system to help your guild, Alliance battles being a merge of PvE and PvP, along with elite missions, *and* also challenge missions with high score ratings. That's 4 things alone right there, with most of these PvE gaming styles not even existing in Prophecies.

Re:GW: Factions Is Not Good

[Jugalator]

Yes, it's the usual rule for Internet boards: those disappointed are vocal, those not play the game or are satisfied in other ways and simply don't post. One is making a big mistake if judging a game on forum response. The only thing you'll see is often just more or less disappointment.

Those doubting me can check out the official WoW boards. That's the most popular MMO in the world, and among the most popular PC games right now, period. If one don't think it's a ground steaming from the flames there, one is sorely mistaken.

Random E3 Pictures

[clear_thought_05]

Okay, I hope this is remotely relevant. Check out these E3 pictures.

MMORPG

[Bruteus]

There are a ton of massive multiplayer online roleplaying game (MMORPG) out on the market. This really just depends on taste and what type of content you like. For Example: EverQuest Star Wars Galaxies Guild Wars Knights Online Anarchy Online Ect..... Basically here is what it comes down to, who can develope the Coolest Weapons, Armor, Characters, Items, Quests, Expansion Packs, Ect... Who ever stands at the end is the winner, but there is one thing that will stand for ever true in the gaming industry... You will Always have those Star Wars Fans (waiting for hours outside to buy the game), You will always have those Everquest Items on Ebay, those Playstation fans who wait outside Wal-Mart to purchase the new console, X-box fans who this the X-box calls home, and Last but not least you will always have a new contender. No matter what is said it comes down to individual players and what they like and dislike!

New Tutorial Sequence in Factions

[MourningBlade]

One of the biggest changes in Factions is the new Tutorial sequence - the "newbie" area.

In old version in Prophecies only gave you a few abilities, and you were put out of it around level 7. In reality, you didn't hit the "main game" (the level 20 areas) for a while after. Also, new abilities were gained as rewards from quests. Your introduction to your class included a few "theme" quests - necromancers had necromancy-looking quests, etc. Some of the quests required you to learn to use a specific ability, but very few.

In Factions, when you get out of the newbie area you're around level 17 (20 if you explore a bit more than normal or if you use the quest rewards to up your experience gain rate) which means that you're pretty much capable of doing anything - and questing with your non-newbie guildmates is reasonable (when you're level 8, having a level 20 around is like enabling god mode - not all that fun when you're trying to learn). You also get a ton of abilities dumped on you at a quick but reasonable pace, and your class quests help explain a bit more of what it means to be your class.

The key, though, is the new Dojo system: after you complete your class quests you can (optionally) do a set of dojo quests, which are heavily-scripted single-player quests that focus around a specific technique. Kiting, dealing with spells, dealing with curses, dealing with conditions, etc. You are given abilities that allow you to deal with these things, and then given the opportunity to test them out. It's brilliant, and it will save a lot of teaching later on (many newbies in Prophecies didn't know these techniques at all - which was okay, they'd never been expected to!).

Also, another big shift: you no longer get abilities as the result of quests. Instead, quests and missions are worth much more gold, and you can use that gold to buy abilities from the skill trainer. Hence you can start mixing and matching much earlier (instead of having a set sequence of skill progression, you can pick and choose). Elite skills are still gained through capture[1].

I wish World of Warcraft had the dojo system, I really do. New players are faced with a very high number of techniques to learn. Getting with a good set of people can take care of this (and plus some!), but it would help raise the waterlevel.

[1] - For non-guild-wars people: some abilities are called "Elite" abilities. You can only have one of these available at a time. These abilities are found on bosses. You "capture" them after defeating the boss if you bring along a special skill called a "signet of capture" - so, the boss is slightly more difficult to kill (you have 7 skills instead of 8), but there is a reward from it.

Re:New Tutorial Sequence in Factions

[nsmike]

One of the biggest changes in Factions is the new Tutorial sequence - the "newbie" area. In old version in Prophecies only gave you a few abilities, and you were put out of it around level 7.

Obviously, you never went Charr farming north of the wall... I actually took a character out of Pre-searing at level 16 once. But that was a several-week-long grind. I guess I was bored with life :)

Engrish FTW!

[HitScan]

It good see I not alone disliking preposistions titles.

D:

[Anonymous Coward]

LOLBIFRONS!

No mention of the open-source Planeshift?

[ylikone]

Planeshift (from planeshift.it) is a really cool game, which is also free and open-source. Many people play it. Like myself.

Re:No mention of the open-source Planeshift?

[idonthack]

Last time I checked out Planeshift, all you could do was run around the main city (pretty much a ghost town) and jump around in a cave. What's new?

Re:No mention of the open-source Planeshift?

[ylikone]

There are now two towns and a vast wilderness/fields between them. You can also explore sewers, dungeons and death realm. There is combat and skills training. Probably a bunch of other stuff that I can't remember at the moment.

GW is the new generation of MMOG.

[Morgaine]

Fine, so it's your pet peeve that GW doesn't comply with your definition, but you are actually entirely wrong in your assessment. What you really mean is that for you, a "MMOG" is the traditional kind of MMOG with all its traditional problems, as in EverQuest.

Well let me tell you something: the world changes, and the EverQuest idea of how you define a MMOG does not fix it in stone for eternity.

ArenaNet designers found a way to preserve all the good things in the genre (most importantly the gameplay), and throw out all the bad things, like camping, kill stealing, training, harrassment, downtime, level grinding, and mindless repetition.

They did so by instancing, but that's no different to what many other MMOGs have done with instanced dungeons. The big difference with GW is that they did it with outdoor zones, and the result is 100% absolute magic. They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams in removing the bad and promoting the good.

You are hung up on the bad things, and think that by not being able to have 50 mobs trained on you by a passing idiot, then somehow it's not a MMOG. Wake up. You're simply not thinking straight. None of the shared world "benefits" you claim are real, they're just a right pain in the butt, and I speak as someone who took two of the largest traditional MMOGs to their end games on several characters.

Guild Wars has got it very very right, and boy, not only is it a full-blown Massively Multiplayer Online Game (it's truly Massive, because it doesn't split people off onto different named servers), it's also one of the very best.

Re:GW is the new generation of MMOG.

[snuf23]

"The big difference with GW is that they did it with outdoor zones, and the result is 100% absolute magic."

This is your opinion. Making everything except the town an instance does have drawbacks. Yes you don't have to deal with the normal issues like competition over mobs, farming etc. but at the expense of not being able to meet other people out in the game world. I've met most of the online friends I've gamed and guilded with in MMOs out in the zones. You run into someone who is on the same quest as you, you offer to help out someone, someone helps you out. This is what I miss from Guild Wars.

Re:GW is the new generation of MMOG.

[ChronosWS]

Actually, the coolest thing is that there are so many different MMOGs (by definition, these are all Massively Multiplayer Online Games) to choose from, each catering to differnt play styles. This is the rise of the Golden Age of MMOGs and we are all lucky to be here to argue the finer (and ultimately irrelevant) points of style.

Truth

[cubicledrone]

Only hype gets old.

Good games are always good games.

Re:Truth

[Hiroken]

Thank you. Also, to the other people on slashdot, thanks for sticking up for FFXI. I get really sick of hearing people bash it. FFXI has a lot of things it could improve on, but I still think it's vastly better than any MMO out there.

~

Guild Wars Question

[ChaoticCoyote]

If I buy Factions, what do I miss out on if I don't buy Prophesies? I can't seem to find this in their FAQs.

Re:Guild Wars Question

[Number13]

You get all the classes, access to the Factions PvE content, access to all the PvP modes. You don't get access to a few skills and elite skills. You don't get access to the Chapter 1 PvE content. For a serious PvP player, you really need access to all the skills. For a more casual player, you can have fun with just Chapter 2.

Re:Guild Wars Question

[ChaoticCoyote]

Can PvE content be shared by, say, two people? My wife and I always had fun playing Diablo II together; I'm wondering if Guild Wars would give us a similar game to share.

Re:Guild Wars Question

[dargon]

You could both play using the same account, but you can't play at the same time on two different computers, logging into the same account from a 2nd computer would log out the 1st computer.

Re:Guild Wars Question

[Anonymous Coward]

As dargon mentioned, you would need two accounts to play together but since it's a one-time fee, that should not be a big deal if you both like the game. In regards to your original question, Tyria, the continent in the original game is big. You'll be missing a lot of PvE content which may interest you if you've played out Factions and are interested in more. There are some nice items to be had in the original game which you can't get in Factions (unless someone gives/sells one of them to you). And each of the core classes has about 30 or so skills which are particular to the Prophecies game. Since there a little over 100 skills for each core class (assassins and ritualists each have 75 skills) that's a quarter of the skills you won't have. None of these is critical as it's in the nature of the game that no single skill, item or profession is dominant.

This is from the viewpoint of a casual player since I expect that's your inclination. Missing the elite skills from Prophecies could be problematic for a hardcore PvP player, but there's nothing really important in Prophecies that you would be denied by not getting it. But there sure is a lot of cool PvE there.

Side note: I remember an older game with online play would kick you if you tried to connect to it from an IP that already had a connection (I think Battle.net did this). I've been in a room with three others all playing Guild Wars through the same connection without a problem. Really helped the communication problem, too.

Guild Wars Factions

[Sevtor]

I was part of the team that flew to Taiwan to compete in the first GW championship back in February. A few notes on the review:

*The new continent is Cantha. The old continent is Tyria. Ascalon is one of the kingdoms of Tyria.

*Warriors and assassins both use melee weapons, beyond that they share next to zero similarities. Assassins play much like rogues, complete with critical hits, minus the backstabbing (but they do have teleportation, called "Shadow Stepping" in game.)

*The assassin "combo move" mechanic is neither groundbreaking nor game defining. Nearly every effective attack sequence has always been executed by queuing up skills (e.g. Eviscerate into Executioner's Strike). Assassins skills are explicity limited - first a lead attack, then off-hand, finally a dual attack. There are a few exceptions to that rule but the system feels dumbed down and gimmicky to me - they've taken the choice out of when you decide to use your skills. There's no such thing as lead attack into dual attack - it (nearly) always goes Lead->Off-hand->Dual. Personally it irritates me because part of the appeal of the skill system was choosing whichever eight skills you wanted- now if you want one particular skill you may be "forced" into choosing three. Eventually the players would have figured out the best combinations on their own, this just feels like the choice and discovery has been taken from us.

*Your assessment of ritualists is pretty good- they have a lot of area buffs and can summon immobile spirits that can help defend important locations. Your gameplay tip is solid for nearly every inexperienced player- stick with the team and use skills on your bar that you (and your teammmates) get a lot of benefit from. New assassins tend to run off on their own and get killed quickly. Ritualists don't seem to have that problem.

*The artwork in the game (original and Factions) is gorgeous. ANet's artists continue to impress me, especially in a game with light system requirements.

*New PvP Zones: You missed a few points here, or were mislead by the advertising. The old game had three types of PvP game types: Ladder play (8v8), Arena Play (4v4, random and team), and an ongoing tournament/king of the hill battle (8v8). Prophecies introduced a new type of gameplay, called Alliance Battles, which are ostensibly 12v12 battles for control of territory.
I say ostensibly because during the beta event you could play the alliance battles as full 12v12 fights (though the objective is to capture and hold as many of the six control points as possible.) You could enter on your own or as part of a four person squad and it was always easy to get into an ongoing fight, and they tend to last no more than ten minutes (as opposed to the lengthier 20-35 minute ladder matches). The format changed in release however, so now you must enter with a team of four, and you no longer see (or share a chat pane) with the other eight people on your side, even though you are all fighting for the same side. The change has incited a lot of bellyaching because it put a big damper into the fast, furious, and accessible style of the early Alliance fights. Now you are forced to go in with a team and you can only communicate with your squad, which are not necessarily bad things, but a lot of the appeal of the early version was the ability to "jump in" and participate in a larger fight without having to worry about the organization other formats require.

*Territory control: each guild can now become part of an alliance. Each alliance can hold up to ten guilds. There are roughly ten cities (five per side) that can be controlled by the alliances with the most faction. Faction can be earned either through Alliance battles (PvP) or quests (PvE). Holding a city gives various benefits. Holding territory is a numbers game though- the more people you have generating faction the bigger the city you can control- there's no advantage to being part of a small, hardcore

Showing it's age. . . since Day 1

[JSBiff]

The top-level reviewer seems to be glossing over the fact that FFXI has had some pretty major problems since day 1. He tries to soften it by saying "the game is showing it's age", as if some of the crappy game design decisions that Square made when designing the game originally were ok by the standards of the year, what was it, 2003? 2004? That wasn't that long ago, and FFXI had some true problems from the day it launched that have never been addressed, as attested to by the reviewer himself.

No new player/character tutorial? Must be about the only MMOG I've ever seen that didn't have something like that. Even Ultima Online, which I started playing in about the year 2000 (and it was already like 4 years old by then) had a new player tutorial (ok, ok, maybe UO didn't when it launched, but the point is, by the year 2000, a new player tutorial was pretty standard fare).

But that's just one thing. In playing the game, I noticed just many, small, but irritating game design decisions that the Square developers made. One time a friend of mine 'mailed' me some items in game. I wasn't able to get on FFXI right away, and he was complaining to me after a few days that until I pick up the items, *he* can't mail anything else to anyone else. What a stupid mail system! (although, I *will* give them kudos for having a mail system at all, since almost no other mmogs do, but still, the implementation was rather retarded).

And, while this isn't something that is exclusive to FFXI, it bugs the heck out of me when MMOGs give you faster experience/loot for going around killing stuff 2 levels lower than you, then stuff at your level or even a level or two above you. Granted, I never played a character past level 14, so maybe this was a low-end phenomenon, but if you paired up with someone, and went and fought something that was an actual challenge, it might take you one to three minutes to kill the thing, and you might each get like 50 experience. Or, you could solo kill stuff two to three levels lower than you, where you kill it in about 10-20 seconds, get 20-30 experience, and go kill another low-end monster 10 feet away immediately, and in the same 3 minutes you might get 100-300 exp, *at not risk*. I just think that's shi-tastic game design.

I really wanted to like FFXI, as I have liked quite a few of the Final Fantasy console games, but having played quite a few other MMORPG, while FFXI has a few cool things, things that I like, mostly it was boring grinding, with a poorly designed user interface, and too much reliance on external sources for game info (they really need more in-game information, like, for example, you can get food, and the food has certain effects - well, it's difficult to tell in game what the effects of any given food are before you eat it, and even after eating it, it can be difficult to tell).

Some might think I'm being too nitpicky, and maybe I am, but I just feel that, in a thousand small ways I keep finding things about FFXI that I don't like, even though I *want* to like it (I discover more every time I play, which is part of the reason I've almost stopped playing, and will probably soon cancel my account. YMMV, but I really think that FFXI was in many ways 'outdated' when it was released (and it some other ways, it's ahead of other MMOGs - I suppose that's true of all of them, but I just found others that I've found just more plain fun than FFXI).

Re:Showing it's age. . . since Day 1

[paitre]

At level 14 you shouldn't have been soloing.
At that point you really should have been in a full 6-man party and geting 150-250 exp per kill.

Dunno what server you're on, but that's pretty much the way it works (and as you get higher in level, even EP crap can kick your ass, so don't getused to being able to kill stuff and get exp solo - it doesn't last for much longer).

You fail it.

[Homestar Breadmaker]

Massively Multiplayer:
nope.

online:
check

game:
check

Oh wait a second, its just an online game. Like counter-strike, or diablo 2! Its only massively multiplayer if massive numbers of people can play together. The fact that massive numbers of people own the game, and may be playing independently at the same time does not make it massive.

Guildwars is EXACTLY the same as diablo 2 gameplay wise, they just added a "city" backdrop to the different chatrooms before you get a group and go into your not massive at all 8 player zone.

Re:You fail it.

[Kingrames]

in diablo 2 there can't be more than, was it 8? people online in your WORLD at any given moment.

in guild wars, though the game is divided into districts, you can comunicate, dance, and talk and trade with hundreds at a time.

there's also a current mission, one of the very first, that allows a whopping 16 people in.

You can say that it can't be "massively multiplayer" until you have lines waiting on spawns, but in that case it's just a stupid misnomer. the point is you're playing online with millions of other people. and if you can interact with thousands over the course of an hour, who cares if there are different rooms you have to walk through before you can do that?

"Massive" and "I like it" are not the same.

[Homestar Breadmaker]

All you did was explain why you like guildwars/diablo style games. That's fine, like them all you want, but they aren't massive just because you like them. In order to qualify as massive, you have to be able to play with a massive number of other people. You cannot do this in guildwars or diablo 2, so they are not massively multiplayer online games. They are just regular old online games.

And just because people point this out, it doesn't mean they have anything against guildwars or diablo. I've played more hours of both than I care to admit. I even run a guildwars fan site. I like counter-strike too, but even though there's thousands of people playing at the same time, only a handful are playing in the same shared space, so its not massive.

Re:"Massive" and "I like it" are not the same.

[Jugalator]

I feel GW Factions is "massive" enough with 12v12 battles now. I think the great strategy depth in GW would be severly wasted if more than 24 players would face each others. Even in guild combat with 16 players total, you really wouldn't like to think out strategies covering, say, 10 more.

Actually, something interesting I've noticed when checking out WoW, is that when doing quests, you usually do them alone or with just a few people. In GW, you basically always do them with parties of 8. Then I really have to wonder if the sense of "massiveness" really is that much better in WoW. And in cities, there's no special difference, as those are shock full of people, also in a unified world, unlike WoW's aging "realm" architecture.

Worst install process ever

[Subacultcha]

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but I feel obliged to mention how horrible the installation process for this game was. I already had this game on the PC, but was curious to see how an MMORPG would be handled on the 360.

First off, one of the nice things about consoles is that you generally don't have to install anything. Just put the disc in and go. FFXI requires you to install it to the hard drive. The process of just copying the data to the hard drive took an hour. Thankfully it was only one disc, so I didn't have to get up and switch discs, but an install time of an hour would be insane on the PC, on a console it's unforgivable. After it was done it popped up a dialog saying "Installation finished". I clicked through that and it brought up another window that said "Finishing installation. This will take about a minute". Why they had the system wait at the first dialog, I'll never know.

Aside from the install, the game also require a ridiculous number of log in names: your registration name (assigned automatically), your PlayOnline name, your email addy on PlayOnline (as well as how it appears in the email), your account name in the game, and at least one or two more for some unknown purpose.

Next you have to purchase time to play the game. This is done as a seperate step from entering in your billing information for some reason. At this time you have to enter the automatically assigned registration name and password (which is silly because you're already logged in). Then you have to register your game and add-ons. This required entering 5 seperate 20 character alphanumeric codes--like the CD keys you have to enter for the PC.

At this point my install time had already taken over an hour and a half. Finally thinking I could play the game, I navigated through the menus to start FFXI (up untill this point I was just in the Play Online application). At that point it said I had to update my files. It took 15 minutes for the game to analyze 1780 files on the hard drive (to prepare for an update). Then it took an hour to redownload all 1780 files. The game JUST came out. It's a CONSOLE game. And I had to wait over an hour to patch the game...

So, after 2 and a half hours of work to install the game I was able to create a character and start running around in the game. The graphics were the same as those on the PC released 2-3 years ago. Not exactly surprising, but you do kind of hope for more on a next gen console. Graphically, it's probably the weakest game released on the 360 to date. Kind of a let down after all the work you have to do to install the game.

Anyway, my point here is not whether the game is good or bad, just that my feeling is that Square doesn't seem to have much respect for their customer if they put them through that kind of install process. They're also completely missing the potential of using XBoxLive. Considering that you have to already be subscribed to XBoxLive it seems that setting up your account should be completely automated. Why can't they just get the billing info straight from MS?

Hopefully someone will come along and do an MMORPG right on the console. I really would love to play a game like WoW on a joystick in my living room, using the headset to talk with people in my group.

Re:Worst install process ever

[Anonymous Coward]

For some dipshit reason, Square-Enix decided to take on XBox Live with their PlayOnline service. Essentially, PlayOnline is Square-Enix's version of Live.

Since it's been released four years ago (the whole thing will be four years old next Tuesday, May 16th), there's been a total of two games for it: FFXI, and Tetra Master. No one plays Tetra Master, but it comes with FFXI and is supposed to justify forcing people to use PlayOnline.

Effectively PlayOnline is a giant hastle that works soley to make it that much harder to get into the game. In WoW, there's one screen before the character select screen. In FFXI there are, on the PC:

1. PlayOnline login
2. PlayOnline main menu
3. PlayOnline FFXI menu
4. PlayOnline FFXI information screen
5. PlayOnline FFXI "don't ruin your life" screen
6. FFXI "Accept the TOS" screen
7. FFXI main menu

Fortunately, Square-Enix realized this was ridiculous, so they added a shortcut that changes it to the following:

1. PlayOnline login
2. PlayOnline main menu with little crystal icon for FFXI
3. PlayOnline FFXI menu
4. PlayOnline FFXI information screen
5. PlayOnline FFXI "don't ruin your life" screen
6. FFXI "Accept the TOS" screen
7. FFXI main menu

Square-Enix aren't exactly the best and the brightest.

I stopped reading at 'Windhurst'

[snarlydwarf]

I'm sorry, but please, if you want to pretend you have actually played a game long enough to analyze the good and bad in it; if you want to give any sort of criticism beyond "c00l" or "sux0rs, dude"...

Then at least learn how to spell city names....

Re:I stopped reading at 'Windhurst'

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't take it too seriously. I've been playing the game for a while and one of my biggest complaints is that most the names used in the game are usually too confusing to remember correctly. See you at the Ragamuffin Pass.

No it is not an MMO

[SmallFurryCreature]

Massive Multiplayer: no check.

You are in the world with your group and possible the enemy group and that is it. You are talking the number of people in an area that a home run quake server could handle. It is the reason they can offer the game without a monthly fee because they do not have the gigantic overhead of hundreds of players in the same area.

It truly is like diablo 2 as has been pointed out before.

All the checks are there except for the massive.

Doesn't mean it ain't an intresting game. BTW you are aware that the game developers themselves don't claim it is an MMO either are you?

GW is just as "massively multiplayer"

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to qualify as massive, you have to be able to play with a massive number of other people.

You can.

GW does let you play with just as massive a number of people as traditional MMOGs in practice, because you are forgetting three very important things -- it's not the number of people in the zone that matters, it's how many you can actually play with:

(i) In traditional shared-zone MMOGs, most of the time you only play in the presence of the few in your own team anyway, because that's how level grinding is done, so the fact that there may be other teams elsewhere in the zone is irrelevant. Except when they train you, or kill-steal, or ruin your day in some other way that is.

(ii) In the large guild raids such as in EQ, with the full complement of 6 teams of 6 people each, the large number of people regularly lagged many players off throughout the raid, so the implementation problems severely limited the number of people who could play together. And everyone had to turn off all effects and all chat just to be able to move with 36 raiders I remember, so most of the time we made do with 3-4 teams at most to avoid lag. GW let you play with 16 simultaneously in the first chapter, and now 24 simultaneously and lag-free in the second chapter, so what's the difference? None whatsoever in practice. You can't say that 36 is MMO and 24 isn't.

(iii) Even traditional shared-zone MMOGs provide instances these days, for example AO was one of the first to instance missions, and then EQ followed by instancing adventures, and then EQ2 effectively instanced battles because despite the shared zones, the fight is lost if anyone outside the team helps you. So what's the difference? None in practice.

The only parts of the shared zone experience that GW removed were primarily the bad ones, and also some of the social ones (meeting up with friends in zone) that aren't essential to team gameplay. And that's all.

So really you're just trying hard to find a reason to exclude GW from the MMOG genre, but the reasons you give are very threadbare. Yes, there are some, but they're totally unimportant as far as play is concerned, so persisting in that view is simple advocacy without substance.

And on top of that, GW is actually *more* massive in reality than a lot of old MMOGs, simply because everyone across the world can join up to play together since there is none of the partitioning of virtual server space as in the traditional ones.

Re:GW is just as "massively multiplayer"

[Homestar Breadmaker]

You can pretend guildwars is a MMOG all you want, but you can't pretend its new, or different, or doing anything "revolutionary". If you call guildwars a MMOG, you have to call diablo 2 a MMOG too, along with counter-strike, day of defeat, unreal tournament, quake, etc, etc. You get 32 people in each zone in a typical FPS, and there's thousands of people playing in hundreds or even thousands of zones.

Re:GW is just as "massively multiplayer"

[Anonymous Coward]

The "It's Not A MMOG!" lobby is just not making any sense whatsoever, from a technical standpoint, when they point the finger at instancing.

Modern games are being designed more and more frequently with a form of "virtual instancing", so that no matter how many people there are in a zone, the area around your team is actually processed as if it were in a separate space, as much as possible. This is done by *everybody* in modern game design, otherwise performance would be terrible.

This type of design falls out quite naturally from advanced scenegraph handling, continuous level of detail processing, distance detail fogging, and locality caching. And the technology is getting better all the time.

So the "Not a MMOG" point actually holds only from an extremely backward-looking perspective where the rather primitive old technology defined the MMOG category.

Well, technology changes, and the number of people there are in what looks like a zone is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Soon you won't be able to tell the difference between an FPS environment and an RPG-type MMOG environment, because they'll all be implemented the same way.

Who's not making any sense?

[Homestar Breadmaker]

Look, if you want to claim all MMOGs are like this now, and MMOGs aren't massive anymore that's up to you. But it makes no sense to claim that all MMOGs are not massive, therefore guildwars is massive. If every MMOG is a completely instanced diablo 2 clone (they aren't by the way) then they are all not massive, it doesn't magically make guildwars and diablo 2 mmogs. And why do you insist on arguing against the developers of the game, who also tell you its not a mmog, and to quit being so dumb?