Well Brad I "will" play your game at "some" point because that is the fair approach? No? I can hate all I want, but you never know I may be terribly mistaken about Vanguard. In all honesty there is even parts (housing, crafting, and mounts with bags) that intrigues me about V:SoH. Maybe it was IGN and Gamespots lackluster previews that set me off? I mean both articles are written obviously fanboi centric with nothing more than "This game is Everquest with better graphics".
I understand the media blitz. I undertsand the "show off the game" approach to the previews. Doesn't mean I have to like it and blogging about it surely doesn't mean I have to be constructive about it. Thats what folks like Darniaq are for.
Personally I would conduct the preview in a totally different way and probably wind up with my rear on the front steps of your office. Not for being rude or unruly, but for asking questions that wouldn't be sufficient for the media blitz that you are conducting for VSoH. Now if you are so inclined and curious as to how such an interview would be conducted you can check Heartless Gamer or e-mail me yourself at heartlessgamer@gmail.com or hell if I would be so inclined to be granted an interview through Gamergod.com I may even be at your office someday. All three of which I hold no high hope for aside from blogging about it.... cause I'm cool like that.
Banter aside Brad I hope your project the best of luck. Do I think its the right direction for such a large title? No. Does my opinion count. Probably not in the grand scheme of things. I'm not Koster and I'm not Lum. I don't make games. Therefore you can dismiss my ranting and go along with your day. It will still make me happy to just post my thoughts.
Lets start with the stand out comment of the article; "The actual game mechanics should be familiar to anyone who's dabbled in MMOs in the past few years."
- Holy fizzle... Vanguard really is Everquest 2.0 (not to be mistaken with Everquest 2 from SOE). Read that quote again. Translated to human speak the previewers impression was "This is Everquest with better graphics."
Something about housing that caught my eye; "Once you start racking up a lot of dough, you'll eventually have the resources to build your own house and you can create a list of specific people who are allowed to enter it. Housing is not instanced, but the world has tons of open space for staking your claim."
- OK I'm going to calm down a little bit because they are the first MMO really since UO to attempt this in the fantasy setting. This does have potential.
Next on the chopping block is this beauty of a quote; "(Right now, the plan is to have a level cap of 50 at launch. With the current content balance, one beta tester took over four months, playing twelve hours a day, seven days a week, to reach that point.)"
This of course is followed up by this dandy; "That's primarily why McQuaid has a 30" Dell LCD powered by a Radeon X1900 XTX -- because they like to play."
- We already knew this game was made for the hardcore and I'm over that fact. What really hits hard is Brad's PC setup. Way to keep it real Brad. For bloomin' sakes... you would think they may play this game on a system THAT MORE THAN 10% OF THE GAMERS OUT THERE CAN PLAY IT ON. Just my opinion of course.
There is another preview up at Gamespot which I'll digest later, but for now I am pissed off so no need to bite off more than I can chew.
Blizzard who is arguably the top game developer doesn't set internal release dates. They have the "when its ready" schedule and they are banking on it. It works and it produces some of the best selling and IMHO funnest to play games ever.
You bring up a great point. People that are unhappy with a certain games policy or actions don't quit. No one forces them to play the damn game. If you want to send a message then... quit and stop paying them.
Just quit already and move on. So many retards DO MISTAKE these games as reality and instead of just quiting they somehow demand the company bend to their wills. Blah.
An open PvP system like EVE's will always be open to the griefer. That is how the system works. Ships and ship fitting have specific roles. In EVE no amount of player skill will get a weak ship through a fight.
What you call an exploitation of the game is actually what makes EVE's end-game so damn satisfying. You want to move that high price blue print original accross low security space? Then you better bring friends. You want to transport an assload of high price cargo? Bring friends.
Pirates exist, but the chances of getting gunned down in your own corporations space is slim to none... as long as your corp stays on top of defense. Chances are you just jumped into a corporations system without permission. Instead of letting you pass... you were eliminated.
AD&D and D&D are 2 different entities. If you want to play a great AD&D game play Baldurs Gate 2.
The point made about DDO is that it doesn't feel like D&D at all... not even close. It is so far off that the D&D needs to be removed from the title.
Games can be set in the D&D world, but that doesn't mean they deserve the D&D in their title.
Not a single line you uttered here is even remotely true. RTFA.
No culling of content is done because of disc space. There is 3% of the original Xbox 360 games that have used up more than 50% of the disc space. RTFA.
Your logic is just plain stupid. The reason that newer games can stay on one disc is because of the new technology in the console. Faster CPU and RAM = better compression.
No one... I swear no one replying to this/. post has RTFA.
Another RTFA... no developer has even come close to using a single DVD9 disc up. So your whole arguement falls short... again. Does anyone on/. RTFArticles anymore?
Developers aren't working with a restriction... ever since the DVD9 series was adopted developers have been developing with a storage medium that THEY COULDN'T POSSIBLY FILL.
Sony and their blu-ray disc seem to be following the tradition. The blu-ray disc choice is going to make the PS3 cost $100+ more and make games cost $10 more each. Its a money move and its a dumb move.
Again another RTFA. It goes very in depth to tell you how much space is being used on the current DVD9 series. HD textures does not mean it will take more space.
Blah.../. is more worthless by the month.
RTFA next time moron.
The article goes into depth about how the next gen games don't even come clost to filling up a single DVD9 disc. And if we apply the same game size growth compared with the previous gen we still come up short of filling a DVD9 disc.
If you've ever played EVE you would know why it would be easy for them to cast votes on an out of game website... because there is a hell of a lot of nothing floating around in space. Hit the go button and a couple hours later you'll arrive.
Sure if you are going through low security space you may run into problems, but overall its rare to run into other people. Even the combat is a rather dull affair.
Now go to a bunch of people playing WoW. They are banging away at the loots so fast that they don't have time to alt-tab out and vote.
EVE has a dedicated internet fan base that will zerg under any site where they can bring in the awards for their beloved underdog. Its like American voting... only with those with something to gain tend to vote. If it doesn't really affect them then they just don't get off their fat asses to vote.
I think the biggest point here that is being missed is simple... gamers like to play games! Make a store and let gamers play games together! A lot of posts have covered the Small Business 101 already with profesional staff, clean floor layouts, etc. What you need to get a mom and pop store up and running is by offering more than a store.
You want advertising? If you are located in a good area throw a projector up in the back of a pickup and set up an Xbox running Halo 2 on it. Grab some of your buds or local gamers and throw the image on the side of your store. People driving by will have no choice but to stop and LOOK. While this example is extreme you get the idea about how you need to project your store.
The greatest game store I ever visited dealt in not only video games, but also Tabletop, Pen and Paper, and etc. These are hobbies that require hobby stores to support them. Offering space to play card games, pen and paper games, and tabletop games can get gamers in on a consistent basis. Maybe they will just so happen to pick up that latest title when they stop by for their D&D friday.
I'm no business super star, but I know a mom and pop game store isn't going to survive in this day of Wal Mart (because honestly that is your MAIN competition) without some POP and FLARE.
Most if not all of the article are things that do need to be looked at, but really most of them are avoidable now. If you don't care about stats play on unranked servers... there is a variety out there with all kinds of settings; including NO helicopters.
Stat padders and spawn campers are owned regularly by good admins. If you play on a ranked server visit the website/forums that support them! Get into the communities so you know what to expect. Works wonders!
So far they have been relatively good at banning and removing the points of people caught stat padding. They had controls in place from day one to catch any instances of padding. If someone simply vehicle whores on a map... well then thats what they do.
Honestly they should of made a Pilot and Driver kit. Weak infantry weapons, but they would allow you to fly or drive. Then limit the # allowed to the # of vehicles/aircraft available on a map.
Sad thing is if the other side has a good pilot (helo or plane) and your side does not... you are doomed to fail on infantry missions. Planes and helos just get accross the map way to fast.
And anyone that has played BF2 for a good bit know damn well planes > helos > tanks > infantry. Also if you did a search on the most played maps... Strike at Karkand would come up #1 with the other urban maps right behind it. Lots of spawn camping vehicles and some helo action, but by far much more bearable.
Great squad baed gameplay, but lost in the solo mentality of how the vehicles dominate the maps.
If you think I feel excluded you are wrong. I am not worried about getting into betas. I, unlike many posters here, don't consider myself and expert by particiapting in XX number of betas. It isn't about exclusion it is more about ensuring the resources are adequetly placed where they do the best for the game.
I am of the concerned variety that believe resources and time are being wasted on overcomplicating the beta process. That same time and resources can be put back into improving the back end bug reporting functions.
Actually you missed my point then. I am for replacing the early *small exclusive beta test* with a profesional beta testing company or in house testing groups(for larger companies). I agree 100% many important things are done in that phase.
The issue I have is that the amount of time and resources wasted trying to pick a few select beta testers out of a pool of thousands is better spent developing other areas... such as what Darniaq has suggested in the actual bug reporting functions.
I'm not knocking the idea of the seasoned beta tester...they're important as well. They know what to do, and they do it more efficiently and more systematically, but they can't do *everything*. They can't stress the systems as much as a crowd of fanboys can.
That is what I am saying. Let the beta testers that do it for a living get the job done and get the software solid. Then hit the stress test to get as many possible combinations of PCs running the software and hitting the servers to get those bugs out of the way.
The time and resources wasted sifting through 100,000's of beta applications coumpounded by the fact so many people aren't providing very good factual data is time and resources better spent on suggestions such as the back end reporting functions that Darniaq has pointed out.
Again the quantity does not equal quality debate. Putting more testers into the world does not mean anything... in actuality it makes it worse.
Hence why Darniaq has provided a great article about the problem of piss poor bug reporting functions.
Also if you would like I will have a *real* website host it... then would my credibility score rise with you? Seriously... stop looking at the URL, read the actual aticle, and evaluate it based on how it is written.
Congrats on actually reading the article and not just the/. blurb.... oh wait you didn't. Read my various other replies for the answers you seek.
Every single thing you stated is stated in my article. Congrats on repeating it! Also read the previous posts on how quantity of testers does not equal quality.
Now say it with me... "Before I post on/. about an article, I will actually read it." Now don't we all feel better?
Attributed to Blizzard's class balance internal testing team in their very own QA office. That is how Blizzard determines and reviews each of the WoW classes... internally. Player feedback appreciated... left in the o-file.
Testing... as in finding bugs that stop the game from being playable. Balancing is something that will happen pre-release, post release, and further down the road regardless of beta testing. The bugs will be fixed hopefully, but the balance will be lacking.
Not saying these areas don't need testing, but you are not going to get it out of a bunch of random net testers.
To quote one of my favorite movies ever... "You are not your list of games tested."
You are reding the/. quote and not the article. My view is that selective beta processes waste time. There is very good software beta testing companies out there that are reasonably priced, specialized in breaking software, and provide better feedback than 99% of any *over the net* tester you will get.
This is a process that has worked for countless years in the single player market. It is ignorant to say MMORPG != single player in terms of testing. It is a) a piece of software that b) can be tested better by any set of profesional (meaning this is what they do for a living Example... Betabreakers.com) beta testers.
You then produce a sound piece of software to then load/stress test by allowing your main beta audience in.
I am hoping someone that is reading this can break down the true cost of man hours and resources it takes to sort through 100,000's of beta applications and select testers compared to what those same man hours and resources could do if put to use improving bug reporting functions and sorting of bugs in preperation for a wide open stress test.
Read the article fully next time please.
Slashdot Mirror
Well Brad I "will" play your game at "some" point because that is the fair approach? No? I can hate all I want, but you never know I may be terribly mistaken about Vanguard. In all honesty there is even parts (housing, crafting, and mounts with bags) that intrigues me about V:SoH. Maybe it was IGN and Gamespots lackluster previews that set me off? I mean both articles are written obviously fanboi centric with nothing more than "This game is Everquest with better graphics".
I understand the media blitz. I undertsand the "show off the game" approach to the previews. Doesn't mean I have to like it and blogging about it surely doesn't mean I have to be constructive about it. Thats what folks like Darniaq are for.
Personally I would conduct the preview in a totally different way and probably wind up with my rear on the front steps of your office. Not for being rude or unruly, but for asking questions that wouldn't be sufficient for the media blitz that you are conducting for VSoH. Now if you are so inclined and curious as to how such an interview would be conducted you can check Heartless Gamer or e-mail me yourself at heartlessgamer@gmail.com or hell if I would be so inclined to be granted an interview through Gamergod.com I may even be at your office someday. All three of which I hold no high hope for aside from blogging about it.... cause I'm cool like that.
Banter aside Brad I hope your project the best of luck. Do I think its the right direction for such a large title? No. Does my opinion count. Probably not in the grand scheme of things. I'm not Koster and I'm not Lum. I don't make games. Therefore you can dismiss my ranting and go along with your day. It will still make me happy to just post my thoughts.
So back to my blog and Gamergod.com I go...
Heartless Gamer Comments.
Lets start with the stand out comment of the article; "The actual game mechanics should be familiar to anyone who's dabbled in MMOs in the past few years."
- Holy fizzle... Vanguard really is Everquest 2.0 (not to be mistaken with Everquest 2 from SOE). Read that quote again. Translated to human speak the previewers impression was "This is Everquest with better graphics."
Something about housing that caught my eye; "Once you start racking up a lot of dough, you'll eventually have the resources to build your own house and you can create a list of specific people who are allowed to enter it. Housing is not instanced, but the world has tons of open space for staking your claim."
- OK I'm going to calm down a little bit because they are the first MMO really since UO to attempt this in the fantasy setting. This does have potential.
Next on the chopping block is this beauty of a quote; "(Right now, the plan is to have a level cap of 50 at launch. With the current content balance, one beta tester took over four months, playing twelve hours a day, seven days a week, to reach that point.)"
This of course is followed up by this dandy; "That's primarily why McQuaid has a 30" Dell LCD powered by a Radeon X1900 XTX -- because they like to play."
- We already knew this game was made for the hardcore and I'm over that fact. What really hits hard is Brad's PC setup. Way to keep it real Brad. For bloomin' sakes... you would think they may play this game on a system THAT MORE THAN 10% OF THE GAMERS OUT THERE CAN PLAY IT ON. Just my opinion of course.
There is another preview up at Gamespot which I'll digest later, but for now I am pissed off so no need to bite off more than I can chew.
Blizzard who is arguably the top game developer doesn't set internal release dates. They have the "when its ready" schedule and they are banking on it. It works and it produces some of the best selling and IMHO funnest to play games ever.
You bring up a great point. People that are unhappy with a certain games policy or actions don't quit. No one forces them to play the damn game. If you want to send a message then... quit and stop paying them.
Just quit already and move on. So many retards DO MISTAKE these games as reality and instead of just quiting they somehow demand the company bend to their wills. Blah.
An open PvP system like EVE's will always be open to the griefer. That is how the system works. Ships and ship fitting have specific roles. In EVE no amount of player skill will get a weak ship through a fight.
What you call an exploitation of the game is actually what makes EVE's end-game so damn satisfying. You want to move that high price blue print original accross low security space? Then you better bring friends. You want to transport an assload of high price cargo? Bring friends.
Pirates exist, but the chances of getting gunned down in your own corporations space is slim to none... as long as your corp stays on top of defense. Chances are you just jumped into a corporations system without permission. Instead of letting you pass... you were eliminated.
Good write up on the book :)
Here is my review of Smartbomb.
AD&D and D&D are 2 different entities. If you want to play a great AD&D game play Baldurs Gate 2. The point made about DDO is that it doesn't feel like D&D at all... not even close. It is so far off that the D&D needs to be removed from the title. Games can be set in the D&D world, but that doesn't mean they deserve the D&D in their title.
Not a single line you uttered here is even remotely true. RTFA.
/. post has RTFA.
No culling of content is done because of disc space. There is 3% of the original Xbox 360 games that have used up more than 50% of the disc space. RTFA.
Your logic is just plain stupid. The reason that newer games can stay on one disc is because of the new technology in the console. Faster CPU and RAM = better compression.
No one... I swear no one replying to this
Another RTFA... no developer has even come close to using a single DVD9 disc up. So your whole arguement falls short... again. Does anyone on /. RTFArticles anymore?
Developers aren't working with a restriction... ever since the DVD9 series was adopted developers have been developing with a storage medium that THEY COULDN'T POSSIBLY FILL.
Sony and their blu-ray disc seem to be following the tradition. The blu-ray disc choice is going to make the PS3 cost $100+ more and make games cost $10 more each. Its a money move and its a dumb move.
Again another RTFA. It goes very in depth to tell you how much space is being used on the current DVD9 series. HD textures does not mean it will take more space. Blah... /. is more worthless by the month.
RTFA next time moron. The article goes into depth about how the next gen games don't even come clost to filling up a single DVD9 disc. And if we apply the same game size growth compared with the previous gen we still come up short of filling a DVD9 disc.
Maybe I should of just stated that a lot of the action in EVE takes place outside the game... in spreadsheets, message boards, and web sites.
If you've ever played EVE you would know why it would be easy for them to cast votes on an out of game website... because there is a hell of a lot of nothing floating around in space. Hit the go button and a couple hours later you'll arrive. Sure if you are going through low security space you may run into problems, but overall its rare to run into other people. Even the combat is a rather dull affair. Now go to a bunch of people playing WoW. They are banging away at the loots so fast that they don't have time to alt-tab out and vote. EVE has a dedicated internet fan base that will zerg under any site where they can bring in the awards for their beloved underdog. Its like American voting... only with those with something to gain tend to vote. If it doesn't really affect them then they just don't get off their fat asses to vote.
I think the biggest point here that is being missed is simple ... gamers like to play games! Make a store and let gamers play games together! A lot of posts have covered the Small Business 101 already with profesional staff, clean floor layouts, etc. What you need to get a mom and pop store up and running is by offering more than a store.
You want advertising? If you are located in a good area throw a projector up in the back of a pickup and set up an Xbox running Halo 2 on it. Grab some of your buds or local gamers and throw the image on the side of your store. People driving by will have no choice but to stop and LOOK. While this example is extreme you get the idea about how you need to project your store.
The greatest game store I ever visited dealt in not only video games, but also Tabletop, Pen and Paper, and etc. These are hobbies that require hobby stores to support them. Offering space to play card games, pen and paper games, and tabletop games can get gamers in on a consistent basis. Maybe they will just so happen to pick up that latest title when they stop by for their D&D friday.
I'm no business super star, but I know a mom and pop game store isn't going to survive in this day of Wal Mart (because honestly that is your MAIN competition) without some POP and FLARE.
Sorry about that Raph.
Most if not all of the article are things that do need to be looked at, but really most of them are avoidable now. If you don't care about stats play on unranked servers... there is a variety out there with all kinds of settings; including NO helicopters.
Stat padders and spawn campers are owned regularly by good admins. If you play on a ranked server visit the website/forums that support them! Get into the communities so you know what to expect. Works wonders!
So far they have been relatively good at banning and removing the points of people caught stat padding. They had controls in place from day one to catch any instances of padding. If someone simply vehicle whores on a map... well then thats what they do.
Honestly they should of made a Pilot and Driver kit. Weak infantry weapons, but they would allow you to fly or drive. Then limit the # allowed to the # of vehicles/aircraft available on a map.
Sad thing is if the other side has a good pilot (helo or plane) and your side does not... you are doomed to fail on infantry missions. Planes and helos just get accross the map way to fast.
And anyone that has played BF2 for a good bit know damn well planes > helos > tanks > infantry. Also if you did a search on the most played maps... Strike at Karkand would come up #1 with the other urban maps right behind it. Lots of spawn camping vehicles and some helo action, but by far much more bearable.
Great squad baed gameplay, but lost in the solo mentality of how the vehicles dominate the maps.
If you think I feel excluded you are wrong. I am not worried about getting into betas. I, unlike many posters here, don't consider myself and expert by particiapting in XX number of betas. It isn't about exclusion it is more about ensuring the resources are adequetly placed where they do the best for the game.
I am of the concerned variety that believe resources and time are being wasted on overcomplicating the beta process. That same time and resources can be put back into improving the back end bug reporting functions.
Actually you missed my point then. I am for replacing the early *small exclusive beta test* with a profesional beta testing company or in house testing groups(for larger companies). I agree 100% many important things are done in that phase.
The issue I have is that the amount of time and resources wasted trying to pick a few select beta testers out of a pool of thousands is better spent developing other areas... such as what Darniaq has suggested in the actual bug reporting functions.
Exactly why I believe that early beta or alphas are best tested by profesionals that are paid to do so.
Then you drop 1000 players in at a time and nail out the bugs such that you mentioned in your beta experience.
I'm not knocking the idea of the seasoned beta tester...they're important as well. They know what to do, and they do it more efficiently and more systematically, but they can't do *everything*. They can't stress the systems as much as a crowd of fanboys can.
That is what I am saying. Let the beta testers that do it for a living get the job done and get the software solid. Then hit the stress test to get as many possible combinations of PCs running the software and hitting the servers to get those bugs out of the way.
The time and resources wasted sifting through 100,000's of beta applications coumpounded by the fact so many people aren't providing very good factual data is time and resources better spent on suggestions such as the back end reporting functions that Darniaq has pointed out.
Overcomplicating the beta process hurts it.
Again the quantity does not equal quality debate. Putting more testers into the world does not mean anything... in actuality it makes it worse. Hence why Darniaq has provided a great article about the problem of piss poor bug reporting functions.
Also if you would like I will have a *real* website host it... then would my credibility score rise with you? Seriously... stop looking at the URL, read the actual aticle, and evaluate it based on how it is written.
Congrats on actually reading the article and not just the /. blurb.... oh wait you didn't. Read my various other replies for the answers you seek.
/. about an article, I will actually read it." Now don't we all feel better?
Every single thing you stated is stated in my article. Congrats on repeating it! Also read the previous posts on how quantity of testers does not equal quality.
Now say it with me... "Before I post on
Attributed to Blizzard's class balance internal testing team in their very own QA office. That is how Blizzard determines and reviews each of the WoW classes... internally. Player feedback appreciated... left in the o-file.
Testing... as in finding bugs that stop the game from being playable. Balancing is something that will happen pre-release, post release, and further down the road regardless of beta testing. The bugs will be fixed hopefully, but the balance will be lacking.
Not saying these areas don't need testing, but you are not going to get it out of a bunch of random net testers.
To quote one of my favorite movies ever... "You are not your list of games tested." You are reding the /. quote and not the article. My view is that selective beta processes waste time. There is very good software beta testing companies out there that are reasonably priced, specialized in breaking software, and provide better feedback than 99% of any *over the net* tester you will get.
This is a process that has worked for countless years in the single player market. It is ignorant to say MMORPG != single player in terms of testing. It is a) a piece of software that b) can be tested better by any set of profesional (meaning this is what they do for a living Example... Betabreakers.com) beta testers.
You then produce a sound piece of software to then load/stress test by allowing your main beta audience in.
I am hoping someone that is reading this can break down the true cost of man hours and resources it takes to sort through 100,000's of beta applications and select testers compared to what those same man hours and resources could do if put to use improving bug reporting functions and sorting of bugs in preperation for a wide open stress test.
Read the article fully next time please.