Read the grandparent post again. It says: SCO MUST be bankrupted as a result of this, no matter how much money it takes to do that in court!....Anything less encourages others to try the same style attack. (emphasis mine).
If a strangers' children are kidnapped in your town and nothing is done about it, your's may as well be next.
To quote many over the top political leaders..."we cannot support this type of terrorism, we cannot agree to their demands"....
By purchasing SCO, no matter how easy it might make the end of this problem, it encourages others to try the same stunt.
SCO MUST be bankrupted as a result of this, no matter how much money it takes to do that in court!....Anything less encourages others to try the same style attack.
> The D in DMCA stands for Digital, the M stands for Millennium. "Digital" modifies "Millennium", not the works being copyrighted. > So, the meaning is "we are in the digital millennium, and here is the new copyright law."
Unfortunately, the really informative posts rarely get get moderated up as such, especially when posted by ACs.
The U.S. spends a fraction of its budget on defense. The U.S. spends more than half the budget on Social Security and Medicare, which are "feeding people" by your definition.
The rundown of the 2004 US budget is available on the Republican website of the US senate budget committee (PDF.
To sum up:
* Total spending will grow from $2.140 trillion in 2003 to $2.229 trillion in 2004, an increase of $89 billion or 4.2 percent.
* Total revenues will grow from $1.836 trillion in 2003 to $1.922 trillion in 2004, an increase of $86 billion or 4.7 percent. (These figures include an "adjustment for revenue uncertainty" of -$25 billion in 2003 and -$15 billion 2004).
* The projected budget deficit of $304 billion in 2003 (2.8 percent of GDP) will grow to $307 billion in 2004 (2.7 percent of GDP), before eventually falling to $190 billion by 2008 (1.4 percent of GDP). Deficits in every year are well below historical highs of the 1980's (6 percent of GDP in 1983) and the 1990's (4.7 percent of GDP in 1992).
* Publicly-held debt will equal $3.878 trillion by the end of 2003 (36.1 percent of GDP) and $4.166 trillion by the end of 2004 (36.9 percent of GDP), eventually reaching $5.003 trillion by the end of 2008 (36.4 percent of GDP).
* Total discretionary spending will grow from $751.8 billion in 2003 to $782.2 billion in 2004, an increase of $30 billion or 4 percent, no faster than the average family's income will grow.
* Defense discretionary spending will grow from $382.2 billion in 2003 to $399.2 billion in 2004, an increase of $17 billion or 4.4 percent.
* Homeland security discretionary spending will grow from $26.7 billion in 2003 to $28.2 billion 2004, an increase of $1.5 billion or 5.5 percent.
* All other discretionary spending will grow from $342.9 billion in 2003 to $354.8 billion in 2004, an increase of $11.9 billion or 3.5 percent.
Please note that the military is funded via the Discretionary spending while Social Security, Medicare, etc. are funded via the Mandatory spending.
I'll be impressed when they have a robot/AI that can play ping-pong. If you look at the plane the ball travels in, foosball is pretty two-dimensional...not entirely, I'll grant you, but I'm making a generalization. If you can create a robot that can deal with three dimensions, and can build strategies to play a good game of ping-pong, then I'll be impressed.
Russell Anderson's doctoral work at the University of Pennsylvania (1986) was a robotic ping-pong player that wins against human beings.
You can buy his book (or check it out at you local library).
> I'm sure many will disagree, but the cost of the shuttle program is horrendous
Let's look at the facts first and try to put them into perspective.
The Republican website of the US senate budget committee says this about the budget for fiscal year 2004 (propaganda intact) [PDF]:
President George W. Bush in his State of the Union address spoke of the bold steps our nation must take to meet the many challenges we face: to create and sustain economic growth in the aftermath of a recession, a dramatic stock market decline, and corporate scandal; to win the ongoing war against terrorism; to improve and strengthen our homeland defense; and to provide high-quality affordable health care for all Americans. The President's budget request translates those bold steps into the reality of dollars and cents.
* Total spending will grow from $2.140 trillion in 2003 to $2.229 trillion in 2004, an increase of $89 billion or 4.2 percent.
* Total revenues will grow from $1.836 trillion in 2003 to $1.922 trillion in 2004, an increase of $86 billion or 4.7 percent. (These figures include an "adjustment for revenue uncertainty" of -$25 billion in 2003 and -$15 billion 2004).
* The projected budget deficit of $304 billion in 2003 (2.8 percent of GDP) will grow to $307 billion in 2004 (2.7 percent of GDP), before eventually falling to $190 billion by 2008 (1.4 percent of GDP). Deficits in every year are well below historical highs of the 1980's (6 percent of GDP in 1983) and the 1990's (4.7 percent of GDP in 1992).
* Publicly-held debt will equal $3.878 trillion by the end of 2003 (36.1 percent of GDP) and $4.166 trillion by the end of 2004 (36.9 percent of GDP), eventually reaching $5.003 trillion by the end of 2008 (36.4 percent of GDP).
* Total discretionary spending will grow from $751.8 billion in 2003 to $782.2 billion in 2004, an increase of $30 billion or 4 percent, no faster than the average family's income will grow.
* Defense discretionary spending will grow from $382.2 billion in 2003 to $399.2 billion in 2004, an increase of $17 billion or 4.4 percent.
* Homeland security discretionary spending will grow from $26.7 billion in 2003 to $28.2 billion 2004, an increase of $1.5 billion or 5.5 percent.
* All other discretionary spending will grow from $342.9 billion in 2003 to $354.8 billion in 2004, an increase of $11.9 billion or 3.5 percent.
So, what's the deal with NASA and the Shuttle program? On page 27:
* The President's request includes $15.5 billion for NASA, a $469 million (3.1 percent) increase over the 2003 request.
* The request includes $6.1 billion for Space Flight (less than a 1 percent increase), $4 billion for Space Science (15.5 percent increase), $1.6 billion for Earth Science (3.6 percent reduction), $973 million for Biological & Physical Research (6.6 percent increase), $959 million for Aeronautics (1.1 percent increase), and $170 million for Education (6.3 percent increase).
Off topic, but it seems like your president does have a sense of humor... On page 66:
* The President requests $500 million for the Election Assistance Commission in 2004, a 25 percent increase above the amount the President requested last year for 2003. The funds would be issued to states in the form of grants
to purchase modern voting equipment.
Back on topic. The spending on all space flight programs in FY04 will be $6.1 billion. The total spending will be $2.229 trillion. Simple math says that the Shuttle is responsible for about 0.27%, hardly a "horrendous" cost. So, yes, many will disagree.
For comparison, just the interest on your public debt will be $352.3 Billion...
> Basically they are trying to achieve client-side security, which is just a myth.
If it is just a myth, why is that nobody managed to get a stable DTV decoder (one that does not send you scampering for new code whenever they ECM your card to the black (grey?) market?
> my point there really is no diffrence between the major parties.
Well, Duh!
It is obvious to any outside observer that your two-party system is a crock, designed to lull the voters by giving them a false sense of having an influence.
>I guess its true if voting really made a diffrence it would be illegal.
The sound that you hear is the sound of one more American achieving enlightment.
When enough of you understand that voting for a third (fourth, fifth or sixths) candidate/party is not "throwing your vote away", you'll be able to enact a meaningful change.
>>...which works until someone makes Decrement() map to Increment() and bury it into some obsure library. >> Don't you see? Operators are just functions that are called a little funny [...] > > The difference is, you never know for sure which operators are overloaded and which ones are correct without going and reading every single souce file that you link to.
You can have global functions, file-scope (static) functions and member functions (methods) in C++. You can override functions based on the number and types of arguments and you can have default arguments to complicate matters). Member functions can be virtual (run-time resolution) or can be hidden by a definition in a subclass.
Given all that, I really don't see much more problems with operator overloading.
OK. But there was no sample. It was a replayed bass line. Now, if they had made up a bassline of their own, and someone found a song which played the same six notes, could they sue as well?
> Yet, I see no huge overarching "war on speeding" for example.
Actually, there is. it's just not as popular because more voters speed than blow things up.
However, the main idea is the same. There is no clear causality between speeding and accidents (although there may be correlation) but speed limits are relatively easy to monitor and enforce so, since most motorists tend to break them at least occasionally, they became a convenient source of income for the police. Think of it as a selective "road tax".
The beauty of a two party system is that you can convince the "masses" that superficial differences between the two are fundamental and perpetuate the system.
Not to mention that the skills and qualification needed to win a popularity contest are actually quite different from those needed to successfully run a country.
Canada has had a nuclear programme since the 40's. It has never had nuclear weapons. It was one of the original signatories of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, which froze the nuclear weapons club at five states: US, USSR, Britain, France and China (of course, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea are now resiling from these obligations...)
India, Pakistan and Israel never signed the treaty.
After 33 years, the NPT retains its near-universal appeal. Cuba became a party last November and East Timor reportedly is preparing its instrument of accession. India, Israel, and Pakistan have not joined the NPT. Israel supported the NPT at the United Nations in 1968, but due to regional security factors has declined to become a party. Pakistan has said in the past that it would join the NPT if India did. India has rejected the NPT on grounds that it differentiates between nuclear weapon states and non-nuclear-weapon states. India and Pakistan severely undercut nuclear nonproliferation objectives in 1998 by conducting nuclear weapon tests. The United States continues to support the goal of universal NPT adherence.
>> So please stop with the "Blame Canada" rhetoric. > > Can we at least blame Manitoba?
By the power vested in me, I hereby grant you the right to blame Saskatchewan.
Re:License comparison EULA's likely unenforceable
on
Video Codec Comparison
·
· Score: 1
I write a lot of codec review articles for DV Magazine. My editors tell me not to worry about those EULA's. Not only are the "no review" clauses considered largely unenforceable, there are any number of magazines out there who whould love to be the test case on this stuff.
Disregarding the legal issues, it's be a huge PR nightmare if a company actually started suing users for discussing how the products work. I can't imagine why they put the clauses in there. It's alienates users without actually gaining any real protection.
In that case, why don't you, or somebody else in the industry, publish some.NET benchmarks?
Since almost all MS products carry a EULA which states "You may not disclose the results of any benchmark test of the.NET Framework component of the OS Components to any third party without Microsoft's prior written approval", I believe this would be the ideal test case.
1. Set up a honeypot. 2. Make sure the content looks "illegal" but, in fact, is not
(i.e., MP3 files named for popular songs but containing only commentary on them). 3. Get hit. 4. Sue for damages. 5. Profit!
OK, joking aside, in most countries, even accessing a computer without authorization is illegal.
P.S. And while we're at it. What is commonly refered to as the AK-47 (Avtomat Kalashnikova accepted in 1947), hasn't been produced in a long time. A redesign in the fifties, exchanging the milled reciever for a stamped one among other things, produced the AKM which has been the dominating version at least up till the introduction of the AK-74 (which is chambered for a different cartridge).
Mike was working in Israel for some time. I am pretty sure that during that time he worked with Israeli Intel employees who considered him, at the least, a "decent guy" and would like to help him.
However, they may be reluctant to associate with a site that includes in Mike's biography statements like "Mike's family was exiled from the Palestinian Territory by the Israeli government in the early 1970s".
It does not matter what is your stance regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, statements like this (especially when presented without any context) do not help Mike's case.
By Edmund Blair FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. soldiers killed at least 13 Iraqi civilians who marched on a school west of Baghdad to demand the troops leave the building and get out of Iraq, doctors and witnesses said on Tuesday.
Medics said 75 were also wounded in the march by more than 200 protesters on the school after Muslim prayers on Monday evening in Falluja, 30 miles from the Iraqi capital. Some witnesses put the death toll as high as 17.
Residents said the marchers were unarmed. U.S. forces said the troops opened fire only after they were shot at by a group of gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles.
The shooting outraged local people who, like many other Iraqis, welcomed the removal of Saddam Hussein by U.S.-led forces but now want the American troops to leave. It is likely to fuel anti-American sentiment elsewhere in Iraq.
U.S. helicopters hovered overhead as angry mourners buried the dead on Tuesday. The white walls of houses near the school were pock-marked by bullets, bullet-riddled cars stood by the roadside and traces of blood marked the ground.
"Our soul and our blood we will sacrifice to you martyrs," hundreds of mourners chanted as they carried at least four simple wooden coffins shoulder-high through the town.
Ahmed Ghanim al-Ali, director of Falluja general hospital, confirmed the death toll was at least 13 and said the hospital had carried out about 30 operations in the past few hours. "Some were wounded by shots. Some were wounded by shrapnel," he said.
"They are stealing our oil and they are slaughtering our people," said Shuker Abdullah Hamid, a cousin of one of the victims, 47-year-old Tuamer Abdel Hamid.
"Now, all preachers of Falluja mosques and all youths...are organizing martyr operations against the American occupiers," said a man cloaked in white, using the term often used to describe suicide attacks in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
There have been a few isolated suicide attacks at military checkpoints, and U.S. troops killed seven Iraqis during a violent demonstration in the northern city of Mosul on April 15, but most anti-American protests have ended peacefully.
U.S. MILITARY
A U.S. military spokeswoman said at war headquarters in Qatar that soldiers in Falluja opened fire on gunmen who shot at them with assault rifles.
"Members of the 1st Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division came upon a group of Iraqis armed with AK-47s last night," the spokeswoman said. "The Iraqis fired on them. The troops returned fire."
A local Sunni Muslim cleric, Kamal Shaker Mahmoud, said the protesters had asked the troops to leave the school so that lessons could resume there.
"It was a peaceful demonstration. They did not have any weapons," the cleric said. "They (the U.S. troops) opened fire on the protesters because they went out to demonstrate."
"We are asking the Americans to leave Iraq completely but first we want them to leave residential areas," he added.
Murhij Rashid, 52, pointed to a grave where gravediggers were throwing dry earth on top and kicking up dust. His 18-year-old son Hussein had just been buried.
"There was a demonstration but he did not have any weapon," he said.
Some residents said some of the dead may not have been taking part in the protest.
Salah Abdullah Hamid said his cousin, a 36-year-old man employed by the Oil Ministry, was an innocent bystander.
"He was not part of the protest. He did not have a weapon. He was killed by American bullets," he said.
Asked why the troops had fired, he replied: "We don't know. No one knows why...We want the Americans to leave our country completely. We are a Muslim country."
Mahmoud Fawzi Hamdan, 33, said one man, 32-year-old Waleed Saleh Abdel-Latif, was shot dead as he opened the gate to his house for his brother to drive in and two women in the house were hit by bullets but survived.
"We're not going to have a debate on the form of the government," Bush said firmly. "This debate is going to take place within Iraq."
Helping craft an "Islamic democracy," as a White House spokesman pledged, is dicey business. The United States has promised democracy for Iraq, but has ruled out the kind of Islamic government that democracy could yield.
With Shiite Muslims forming more than 60 percent of Iraq's population, a free vote could produce an Islamic-oriented government with close ties to the historically anti-American Shiite clerics who have governed Iran since the 1979 Islamic revolution.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the United States will not allow a religious government like Iran's to take hold in Iraq.
Sen. Bob Graham, D-Fla., said Rumsfeld's position "demonstrates the kind of quagmire that we are potentially going to be in Iraq."
"If you talk about a democracy, which means that people vote and select the political leadership that they desire, then you can't say, `But there are certain segments of the population that are off-limits,'" the 2004 presidential hopeful said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."
A group of Iraqis in Michigan wrote a communique outlining their hopes for their native country. It asks that "Iraqis be allowed to be the masters of their own destiny," said Jafar al-Musawi, a Dearborn-based Iraqi writer.
Looking ahead, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Washington won't allow an Iranian-style Islamic government in Iraq.
Iran in turn rejected U.S. administration accusations that it is interfering in Iraq. It said the United Nations, not the United States, should run an interim postwar government.
The commander of U.S.-led forces in Iraq, Gen. Tommy Franks, said those troops could remain for ''months, or a year or two'' to ensure stability as Iraqis develop their new government.
"The fact is we don't know how long it'll take... because we do not yet know exactly how devoted the Iraqis themselves will be in getting over their own tribal and ethnic and religious difficulties," Franks said in an interview in Friday's St. Petersburg Times.
Those difficulties could include a drive for an Islamic government by Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority, which was repressed under Saddam.
Rumsfeld said the United States-which has promised to let Iraqis choose their own government-will not permit the establishment of a religious government comparable to the one in neighbouring Iran.
"If you're suggesting, how would we feel about an Iranian-type government with a few clerics running everything in the country, the answer is: That isn't going to happen," Rumsfeld told The Associated Press.
Slashdot Mirror
Read the grandparent post again. It says: SCO MUST be bankrupted as a result of this, no matter how much money it takes to do that in court!....Anything less encourages others to try the same style attack. (emphasis mine).
If a strangers' children are kidnapped in your town and nothing is done about it, your's may as well be next.
Comprehend?
But then, it had nothing to do with Linux...
> It's not cheating if you intimidate your accuser into recanting the accusation.
The logical conclusion would be to boycott any company who engages in such behaviour.
Unfortunately, even scanning at -1, I could find only 1 such suggestion. Is this Slashdot???
> The D in DMCA stands for Digital, the M stands for Millennium. "Digital" modifies "Millennium", not the works being copyrighted.
> So, the meaning is "we are in the digital millennium, and here is the new copyright law."
Unfortunately, the really informative posts rarely get get moderated up as such, especially when posted by ACs.
Never a mod point around when you need one...
To sum up:
Please note that the military is funded via the Discretionary spending while Social Security, Medicare, etc. are funded via the Mandatory spending.
For a lot of info about the US budget, look here.
You can buy his book (or check it out at you local library).
Let's look at the facts first and try to put them into perspective.
The Republican website of the US senate budget committee says this about the budget for fiscal year 2004 (propaganda intact) [PDF]:
So, what's the deal with NASA and the Shuttle program? On page 27:
Off topic, but it seems like your president does have a sense of humor... On page 66:
Back on topic.
The spending on all space flight programs in FY04 will be $6.1 billion. The total spending will be $2.229 trillion. Simple math says that the Shuttle is responsible for about 0.27%, hardly a "horrendous" cost. So, yes, many will disagree.
For comparison, just the interest on your public debt will be $352.3 Billion...
> Basically they are trying to achieve client-side security, which is just a myth.
If it is just a myth, why is that nobody managed to get a stable DTV decoder (one that does not send you scampering for new code whenever they ECM your card to the black (grey?) market?
> my point there really is no diffrence between the major parties.
Well, Duh!
It is obvious to any outside observer that your two-party system is a crock, designed to lull the voters by giving them a false sense of having an influence.
>I guess its true if voting really made a diffrence it would be illegal.
The sound that you hear is the sound of one more American achieving enlightment.
When enough of you understand that voting for a third (fourth, fifth or sixths) candidate/party is not "throwing your vote away", you'll be able to enact a meaningful change.
There is a substantial number of books that cover various J2EE technologies.
Just on Sun's site you can find these lists:
- Java Developer Connection: Books
- The Java Series
What book(s) would you recommend for an experienced C++ developer who wants (or needs) to switch to J2EE development?
>>...which works until someone makes Decrement() map to Increment() and bury it into some obsure library.
>> Don't you see? Operators are just functions that are called a little funny [...]
>
> The difference is, you never know for sure which operators are overloaded and which ones are correct without going and reading every single souce file that you link to.
You can have global functions, file-scope (static) functions and member functions (methods) in C++. You can override functions based on the number and types of arguments and you can have default arguments to complicate matters). Member functions can be virtual (run-time resolution) or can be hidden by a definition in a subclass.
Given all that, I really don't see much more problems with operator overloading.
> Granted, they need to be in compliance with the law as they take swipes at pirates...but c'mon, they're still pirates.
Exactly! And there are existing laws to deal with piracy.
> NO language has matrices built in as a primitive
APL?
> Yet, I see no huge overarching "war on speeding" for example.
Actually, there is. it's just not as popular because more voters speed than blow things up.
However, the main idea is the same. There is no clear causality between speeding and accidents (although there may be correlation) but speed limits are relatively easy to monitor and enforce so, since most motorists tend to break them at least occasionally, they became a convenient source of income for the police. Think of it as a selective "road tax".
Some interesting pages are:
- COUNTERACT THE MYTH.
- Speed Limit Fears: Lying with Science.
The beauty of a two party system is that you can convince the "masses" that superficial differences between the two are fundamental and perpetuate the system.
Not to mention that the skills and qualification needed to win a popularity contest are actually quite different from those needed to successfully run a country.
See here:
>> So please stop with the "Blame Canada" rhetoric.
>
> Can we at least blame Manitoba?
By the power vested in me, I hereby grant you the right to blame Saskatchewan.
Since almost all MS products carry a EULA which states "You may not disclose the results of any benchmark test of the
> If you spoofed illegal files on your computer, then that's entrapment, and you really don't want to go there!
.MP3
AFAIK, entrapment is when you're a law enforcer.
It is my right to have a file on my machine named
It is not their right to access it.
1. Set up a honeypot.
2. Make sure the content looks "illegal" but, in fact, is not
(i.e., MP3 files named for popular songs but containing only commentary on them).
3. Get hit.
4. Sue for damages.
5. Profit!
OK, joking aside, in most countries, even accessing a computer without authorization is illegal.
The Canadian criminal code forbids it (look here for a longer version).
TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 47, Sec. 1030 of the US code also looks applicable (but IANAL so if somebody who IAL reads this, please comment).
So, with the law on your side, you can also sue them in a small claims court. That way, they cannot use their financial advantage to subvert justice.
Mike was working in Israel for some time. I am pretty sure that during that time he worked with Israeli Intel employees who considered him, at the least, a "decent guy" and would like to help him.
However, they may be reluctant to associate with a site that includes in Mike's biography statements like "Mike's family was exiled from the Palestinian Territory by the Israeli government in the early 1970s".
It does not matter what is your stance regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, statements like this (especially when presented without any context) do not help Mike's case.
Anger Mounts After U.S. Troops Kill 13 Iraqis
Tue April 29, 2003 06:56 AM ET
By Edmund Blair
FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. soldiers killed at least 13 Iraqi civilians who marched on a school west of Baghdad to demand the troops leave the building and get out of Iraq, doctors and witnesses said on Tuesday.
Medics said 75 were also wounded in the march by more than 200 protesters on the school after Muslim prayers on Monday evening in Falluja, 30 miles from the Iraqi capital. Some witnesses put the death toll as high as 17.
Residents said the marchers were unarmed. U.S. forces said the troops opened fire only after they were shot at by a group of gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles.
The shooting outraged local people who, like many other Iraqis, welcomed the removal of Saddam Hussein by U.S.-led forces but now want the American troops to leave. It is likely to fuel anti-American sentiment elsewhere in Iraq.
U.S. helicopters hovered overhead as angry mourners buried the dead on Tuesday. The white walls of houses near the school were pock-marked by bullets, bullet-riddled cars stood by the roadside and traces of blood marked the ground.
"Our soul and our blood we will sacrifice to you martyrs," hundreds of mourners chanted as they carried at least four simple wooden coffins shoulder-high through the town.
Ahmed Ghanim al-Ali, director of Falluja general hospital, confirmed the death toll was at least 13 and said the hospital had carried out about 30 operations in the past few hours. "Some were wounded by shots. Some were wounded by shrapnel," he said.
"They are stealing our oil and they are slaughtering our people," said Shuker Abdullah Hamid, a cousin of one of the victims, 47-year-old Tuamer Abdel Hamid.
"Now, all preachers of Falluja mosques and all youths...are organizing martyr operations against the American occupiers," said a man cloaked in white, using the term often used to describe suicide attacks in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
There have been a few isolated suicide attacks at military checkpoints, and U.S. troops killed seven Iraqis during a violent demonstration in the northern city of Mosul on April 15, but most anti-American protests have ended peacefully.
U.S. MILITARY
A U.S. military spokeswoman said at war headquarters in Qatar that soldiers in Falluja opened fire on gunmen who shot at them with assault rifles.
"Members of the 1st Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division came upon a group of Iraqis armed with AK-47s last night," the spokeswoman said. "The Iraqis fired on them. The troops returned fire."
A local Sunni Muslim cleric, Kamal Shaker Mahmoud, said the protesters had asked the troops to leave the school so that lessons could resume there.
"It was a peaceful demonstration. They did not have any weapons," the cleric said. "They (the U.S. troops) opened fire on the protesters because they went out to demonstrate."
"We are asking the Americans to leave Iraq completely but first we want them to leave residential areas," he added.
Murhij Rashid, 52, pointed to a grave where gravediggers were throwing dry earth on top and kicking up dust. His 18-year-old son Hussein had just been buried.
"There was a demonstration but he did not have any weapon," he said.
Some residents said some of the dead may not have been taking part in the protest.
Salah Abdullah Hamid said his cousin, a 36-year-old man employed by the Oil Ministry, was an innocent bystander.
"He was not part of the protest. He did not have a weapon. He was killed by American bullets," he said.
Asked why the troops had fired, he replied: "We don't know. No one knows why...We want the Americans to leave our country completely. We are a Muslim country."
Mahmoud Fawzi Hamdan, 33, said one man, 32-year-old Waleed Saleh Abdel-Latif, was shot dead as he opened the gate to his house for his brother to drive in and two women in the house were hit by bullets but survived.
Actually, there is more direct proof:
... because we do not yet know exactly how devoted the Iraqis themselves will be in getting over their own tribal and ethnic and religious difficulties," Franks said in an interview in Friday's St. Petersburg Times.
Bush Declares Iraq Democracy Can Flourish:
"We're not going to have a debate on the form of the government," Bush said firmly. "This debate is going to take place within Iraq."
Helping craft an "Islamic democracy," as a White House spokesman pledged, is dicey business. The United States has promised democracy for Iraq, but has ruled out the kind of Islamic government that democracy could yield.
With Shiite Muslims forming more than 60 percent of Iraq's population, a free vote could produce an Islamic-oriented government with close ties to the historically anti-American Shiite clerics who have governed Iran since the 1979 Islamic revolution.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the United States will not allow a religious government like Iran's to take hold in Iraq.
Sen. Bob Graham, D-Fla., said Rumsfeld's position "demonstrates the kind of quagmire that we are potentially going to be in Iraq."
"If you talk about a democracy, which means that people vote and select the political leadership that they desire, then you can't say, `But there are certain segments of the population that are off-limits,'" the 2004 presidential hopeful said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."
A group of Iraqis in Michigan wrote a communique outlining their hopes for their native country. It asks that "Iraqis be allowed to be the masters of their own destiny," said Jafar al-Musawi, a Dearborn-based Iraqi writer.
No Islamic government for Iraq:
Looking ahead, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Washington won't allow an Iranian-style Islamic government in Iraq.
Iran in turn rejected U.S. administration accusations that it is interfering in Iraq. It said the United Nations, not the United States, should run an interim postwar government.
The commander of U.S.-led forces in Iraq, Gen. Tommy Franks, said those troops could remain for ''months, or a year or two'' to ensure stability as Iraqis develop their new government.
"The fact is we don't know how long it'll take
Those difficulties could include a drive for an Islamic government by Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority, which was repressed under Saddam.
Rumsfeld said the United States-which has promised to let Iraqis choose their own government-will not permit the establishment of a religious government comparable to the one in neighbouring Iran.
"If you're suggesting, how would we feel about an Iranian-type government with a few clerics running everything in the country, the answer is: That isn't going to happen," Rumsfeld told The Associated Press.