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Kiro, the Foosball Robot
JasonFleischer writes "Although the official line from the RoboCup competition is that robots should be ready to challenge humans on the soccer
field by the year 2050, we don't have to wait that long to see man-machine
competition in the bar.
Researchers in Germany have developed a table football (foosball, table soccer, whatever) robot. The human challenger(s) take the red team, while the machine works the blue side, using an overhead video camera to see what's happening on the table. The conference paper shows that while the machine generally wins against the normal bar-amatuer it has no chance against a human grandmaster. But these kinds of things are always improving, after all look how big a deal the man-machine chess competition turned out to be. So perhaps the current table football world champions should be watching their backs."
This will be fun for about ten minutes, until the machine is either impossible, or laughably easy (more likely) to beat.
People in bars want games they can play socially, with other people. The people who would really be in to something like this would stay home tweaking their Debian installation and picking at their hemorrhoids.
...someone else to kick my ass at that game.
Until this thing starts talking smack while racking up the goals, I'm not impressed...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
What is the world coming to when...
"foosball" and "grandmaster" is used in the same paragraph.
Of course, I didn't realize that "table football world champions" actually existed either. Isn't that decided by the last drunken game... "And thhhiss is for the cchampionship ooffff thheee wwwwwooorrllldddd."
Davak
but does the computer have full control over all the umm (forgive my foosball knowledge) "handles" at all time. I mean part of the game is having to let go and grab the next one. Kind of an unfair advantage if the computer does not have to do so.
I'll be impressed when they have a robot/AI that can play ping-pong. If you look at the plane the ball travels in, foosball is pretty two-dimensional...not entirely, I'll grant you, but I'm making a generalization. If you can create a robot that can deal with three dimensions, and can build strategies to play a good game of ping-pong, then I'll be impressed.
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....and sink a shot at the same time, I'd be impressed.
__________
Love conquers all... except CANCER
But how much has this normal bar-amatuer had to drink?
The fact that there is a human grandmaster of foosball somehow makes my life seem less meaningless. :)
someone who can dethrone Leif Garrett!
"I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
Bringing computers into pubs? No, No i tells ya. I work with computers all week. Theres a few things i like doing at the friday happy hour with my work mates. Thats, getting cheap or free beers and playing pool.
:/
This thing doesnt bellong in a pub. It belongs in a pinball palar... Or whatever you call those things...
Computers in pubs? pfffffffft... why dont i just start bringing beer to work?
Actualy, i make a good point, why dont i?
My point is the pub is my one place to ungeekatise myself... bringing a computer to a pub might have the oposite effect.
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
I hope the robot isn't smart enough to jam the handle at maximum speed toward an opponent, when the opponent is positioned...uhm...a little too close.
Ah, the college days of Extreme Foosball. And misinterpreting what exactly 'foos'-ing a ball is.
...
Here's another invention that's sure to further the cause of humanity! Kudos!
....Bethanie....
...while metabolizing a six-pack then we can talk about a fair fight.
Rather than using a camera to read the table, if the table were built with sensors in each of the guys (to indicate state/current position/speed of current rotation) and a sensor in the ball (or positional sensors around the edges that could read the location of the ball), I believe that the software would win now, without any improvements. (Maybe we could put a GPS device in the ball!)
My guess is that the majority of the work that the computer has to do now is to figure out, from the video feed, where things stand before reacting. If the state were easier to read, the machine's reactions would easily outdo any human, champion or otherwise.
Why do I h8 apple?
piss easy to win if you yank a few wires when the ref is not looking
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
One of the main strategies is to perfect a shot that can be executed faster than humans can react to it. (i.e. stop the ball with your offensive 3 man rod and then wait and then slide the ball and shot it somewhere else along that rod). But what happens when the computer it watching it, if video is fast enough and the ai sees what you are doing then it might be able to block things that humans would never be able to stop. On the flip side the robotic arms could execute the same shot 100% of the time, but I don't think that the overhead camera would give it enough information. There would also need to be sensors in the motors that move the rods because that feedback is important.
I'll be happy when they teach AIBO to fetch the morning paper or autogrowl at bad people. I wonder if they'll get to a point were I can download new "programs" for the robot -- like in The Matrix -- download a martial arts foosball playing AIBO program. Now that would rock.
SPAM solution made easy: 1 spammer, 5 cords of rope, 5 hourses, and fireworks. Be creative.
I think everyone so far has missed as to why exactly this is such a big deal.
It is not important what game the robot mastered. What is important is the fact that the robot is capable of on the fly visual/apendage (arm) coordination.
That means we have technology that will allow for application of this in other areas (think retrieval robots for disaster zones, etc.)
That is what makes this story so exciting.
The dot com era has truly come to an end when the Foosball games rise up against their former masters.
What's next? Those fancy Aeron chairs will bite our asses?
....is Shufflepuck Cafe.
This could help linux. if people at bars just play against computer's they'll drink less, thus giving the beer companys less money. Beer company's with less money cant spend it on expensive OS's like WIndows so they will be forced to use Linux. I love people who do something "usless" when in actually has benifits for us all...
Look at this and them imagine the red guy as the T1000 terminator. Do you *really* want to play soccer with him?
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
I'll get to as soon as someone makes a robot that can play foosball...HAHAHHAHAHAHAAHA
Now I'll have to change it to:
I'll get to it as soon as someone makes a robot that can kick my ass on a regular basis playing foosball (minus laughter afterwards).
-my other sig is your mom
I was momentarily surprised by this, until I remembered a TV show that was on Yorkshire Television in the 70s, in which fast bowler Freddie Trueman introduced groups of people playing pub games.
Table football, shove ha'penny, skittles, and Nine Men's Morris.
This wasn't tucked away in the afternoon or late at night. There was no afternoon or very late at night TV in those days. This was on around 7PM in the evening...
The horror! The horror!
Ah well. At least table football champions get out more than online gamers...
"Information wants to be paid"
It is a research project. They're doing it to see if they can do it. Creating a robot that cn play foosball is obviously an interesting technical challenge in a lot of ways. The researchers will learn a lot in the process.
Did anyone else go to NASA's cool robot of the week to see if it was listed? Why isn't it?
... of table- soccer? You mean, that game with the little spinny men on bars, right?
That's sad. Very sad.
Oh well, to each his own
Just my Insert-two-quarters-for-one-credit's worth
-RickTheWizKid
hmmm... if I were wanting to create the ultimate computer foosball player, I'd just have the machine rotate all the handles at about 12000 rpm, sliding them back and forth at a 100 cycles per second.
The first time the human opponent catches the ball off the forehead at 1200 fps... FORFIET! The machine wins again.
but that's just me...
No man is an island, but Gary is a city in Indiana.
Foosball is of the DEVIL!
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
on their website, they say its a good way to practice -- for all those grand masters out there. Because you can focus on a single shot or whatever. But I could see it popping up in arcades...
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
"Today foosball also plays a role in social rehabilitation, being a part of the recreational programs offered by many state and federal correctional institutions."
Every office should have a foosball table. Challenge your bastard boss to a game if you're pissed at him. Both of you will come out of it sweating and realizing that maybe you are not so different after all. Besides...there's nothing quite like yelling at your opponent because the plastic ball got stuck under one of your players feet.
___ Shout Central - Crushes your nuts!
Normally, they are known by the term "frat boys".
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
I was OK with robots taking away factory work
I am OK with robots taking away bar games
But when they start drinking beer on my behalf I draw the line!
You will have to pry my proprietary software $$$ from my cold dead hands!
What the hell is that? Is that something like the little table soccer games with the bars going through the little players?
Not Quite.
Foosball started as an ancient ritual by germanic tribes when the rights over one cow or a beehive were contested.
In the original version of the game, according to archaeologists, the clay built mini humans were called "foos" (leading one to beleive that the ancient germanic tribes somehow had access to ebonics literature) and had two holes in them.
A stick was mounted through the "foo" and the other hole (the deeper of the two) was packed chock full of bullshit (Or honey, depending on what they were arguing over). The two people then effectively duelled until the "foo" or foos were shattered. This would continue a total of 6 times, while in front of both tribal elders.
The winner was the guy with the most shit from an exploded foo on him, and got to walk away with the prize.
In the event of a tie, the two people would then just fight over the item. But, if the tribal elders wound up with more shit on them than the arguing people, the item being argued over was offered up to the gods as a sacrifice, along with any remaining foos.
The game evolved throughout the centuries to include a borded, fenced in table (to prevent normal citizens from being splattered) and eventually, the populace grew so skilled that multiple foos were used at once within the box.
So there you have it. A lot of bullshit.
krystal_blade... (you know that was funny)
It will be easy to motivate our fellow man; there is hardly anything people treasure more than not being annihilated.
a movie about a foosball player got a better rating than BioDome. Thank you for reminding me why I watch TBS SuperStation all weekend.
___ Shout Central - Crushes your nuts!
I beat you by a good 5 minuets to this quote, so you just stop whoreing for Karma ;-)
I don't think this is the way it's supposed to go. I haven't seen Terminator 3 yet, but I'm pretty sure Skynet doesn't begin with a withering attack on humanity's carefully-crafted illusion that foosball is anything other than spinning the handles as quickly as you can and screaming, "BOOOYAH! IN YOUR FACE!"
I impaled one of my sister's Barbie dolls on the business end of a power drill when I was 9. Where's my patent?
Bowie J. Poag
You clearly have never seen me play. Eyes, heads, jockers... its all fair game when I'm on the table... can't block my shot if you're busy protecting your eyes or family jewels!
Words to live by, my friends.
You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
"Math in a song is good."-Linford
I think that they are just trying to utilize current AI technology to further expand it. AI in chess often consisted of analyzing every possible move. Foosball while not as intellectual has much more freedom of movement, relative to chess. Also, the AI has to react with fast reflexes as opposed to the long periods of thinking a chess computer can do. I think Foosball could be used to help advance AI. It has unique challenges but is still constrained enough to prevent the problem from being too big. FYI, there were a group of students in my university that also designed an AI foosball table for a fourth year project. They used sensors on the floor instead of a camera.
Green Monkey san
So that's what foosball is. Heard the name quite a lot on US TV programmes and films we get over here, but never realised what it was.
Is the name derived from the German "Fussball"?
Registering accounts later than some other chrisb since 1997
... especially after yesterdays champions league final, how would a robot deal with unorthodox players like Milan's Genarro Gattusso, awkward players like like Nesta who thrive on assaulting opponents on the field of play. I mean, did u see his foul on del piero? that was criminal. He almost took the guy's eye out.
Forza Juve
But then, the human won't be able to read the machine's cues either, so it's a fair fight as far as that goes. Unless we added some type of pulsing red light to show the machine's emotional state ...
"I can't let you make that three-man push shot, Dave."
The winner was the guy with the most shit from an exploded foo on him, and got to walk away with the prize.
So, the moral is: "If the foo shits, wear it".
Having played foosball my entire life, I doubt they can make something to beat anyone of real skill anytime soon. When you get really good at the game, it's not about seeing the shot to block it, because you rarely see it (if you're good enough) because it's so fast. No, you're going on anticipation, of what the player may do. It becomes a sort of guessing game at that point.
This is where the stragegy in foosball really comes in. They key is to have a bunch of various shots you can use but that all "look" the same on set up, so the player has no idea where you're going to go with the shot. If they guess wrong, you score. Of course, this takes a lot of skill to do well (and just as much skill on defense to defend).
Because the robot is using a camera, and because the action is so fast, I can't imagine it stopping a good push shot, or even a good pop or bank shot for that matter. Similarly, I can't see it setting up good shots that a human couldn't pick out everytime. Though I think it would be easier to teach a robot offense, than defense.
from what I can tell, if they actually programmed the bot to constantly cycle its goaly back and forth fast enough, it would beat any competetor. That's a fact.
That was pretty frickin' funny, dude. You gave back the two minutes the parent poster took away.
Table football is not Foosball in Europe, it is a game played with miniatures, called Subbuteo.
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Researchers in Germany are the devil!
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
I've played this thing last February at the Hannover industry fair. I'm by no means a tournament-level player, but I'm not crap either, so I think I can judge this thing's playing power. It's not very good at planning shots (in fact, it's crap at that ;-)), but it's amazingly fast. Better reactions than I have ever seen in a human. And keep in mind, this was a year ago. They use motion prediction to increase the frame rate, so that isn't the limit.
I do think that they can make a tournament-level player out of this thing. Which isn't the motivation, of course, but give them two or three years.
But nobody can beat this guy. (1.7M wmv file)
No really, I'm serious. This robot's playing style is more akin to what we call "whackball." Better foosball players remain in contact with the ball a lot longer, "palming" the ball with the face of the man to do quick changes in direction, fakes, and more. There's some video available here on the right side of the page.
Of course, there have been robots interacting with dynamic environments in similar ways for a long time, such as juggling and running. It's a big jump to go to the next level, which requires chaining together sequences of difficult actions, such as palming the ball, passing, and shooting. But I think foosball is a great place to explore such dynamical interaction and action composition, and I'm jealous that they beat me to building a table.
To improve your chances... cover the camera.
... a table hockey version is also reported to be "in the works."
As long as the computers don't take over our needs for drunken bar sex. When I get served by a robot, play video poker, lose to a foosball machine, and then turned down by a machine, I'll be just fine. Now if only I could find my old copy of Mac Foxes. Now THAT was a game...
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
We've had these for decades! http://www.pong-story.com/intro.htm
Haven't any of you nerds watched the Animatrix? Have we learned nothing?
And a robot vs human in soccer by 2050 is laughable. Yeah maybe there'll be one that can play against a human age 2.
-- taking over the world, we are.
Is there a german word for "slashdotted"?
from current world table football champions:
With millions of players and competitions being held worldwide, in 1993, Frenchman Laurent Garnier decided to create an independent world-governing association, now known as the Federation of International Sports Table Football (FISTF).
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coincidence anyone? i think not
Imagine if this thing got fast enough - you wouldn't be able to get the ball past your back men. The computer would simply redirect your attempts right back into your net. All it needs then is some good smack talking to put you in your rightful place.
You can buy his book (or check it out at you local library).
For all of you out there that don't think you can do anything with foosball except drink and talk trash, check out the money you can win at regional, national and international tourneys. VIFA and USTSA
So THATS how it all started. Red Team, Blue Team. Humans versus Machines...we are all doomed!
Or maybe I should unplug from the matrix hype once in awhile.
As an avid foosball player, I first want to refute the "lack of strategy" argument for foosball. I play frequently with Tom Spear and Robbie Mares, two of the greatest foosball players in the world. (I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but in America they are known as "Pro Masters," not "grandmasters.") Either one of those guys will tell you that foosball is like a game of chess on speed. The amount of skill you posess for the game will only take you so far. At a certain point, the game becomes almost entirely mental.
Players reach a skill level where they can, physically, do whatever they want to do with the ball. For a pass or a shot, they choose their hole before they even start to move the ball. Trying to defend the pass or the shot is a matter of being able to predict your opponent's maneuver; if you try to play a straightforward defense and watch to see where they're going, then race them to the opening...you'll lose every time.
That said, I think that a machine could be a very worthy competitor. With a fine-tuned history-based decision-making algorithm for baiting and blocking shots, I'm sure it could play great defense if it's fast enough. As far as offense, I'm sure the machine could hit all sorts of angles and speed shots with deadly precision. It will just take time to teach it how to play.
If you're at all interested in more foosball stuff, check out the Valley International Foosball Association and the United States Table Soccer Association. If you like to play, you should check out some local tournaments. For Colorado, we've got our own site and you might have one for your area, too. Speaking on behalf of tournament players everywhere, we'd love for you to come play our tournaments.
Yeah, first of all the robot would need to be able to control the ball. I don't think this Kiro can do that.
You yourself admit that defensing good shots comes from reading whats shots are possible from the identical starting positions, and then guessing which one the opponent is going to shoot. That really doesn't sound beyond a computer to me.
You also say that it would be easier to teach a robot offense, but can't imagine it setting up a shot? I would imagine that the computer could have better ball control than a person. Once the computer gets the ball on their 3-man, I'd think it could (eventually) get to the point where it scores every time. It could perfectly see every hole, and each time it hits the ball it would get the exact intended angle.
Sure, I imagine today's first edition is highly beatable, but that would be due to the slowish visual processing and incomplete AI implementation. If the computer side of this would get the budget that Chess has had, in 5 years the computer would destroy.
The little animation is nice, but...
I don't know about in Germany, but here in Canada, two meshed gears spin in opposite directions!
How do you make the robot buy you a beer when you win? If you lose, what do you buy it -- a can of WD-40?
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
"We don't serve your kind here"
Finally!! The reason star wars pub owners hate robots!!
CheckoutL ive.avi
http://www.bonziniusa.com/video/Bonzini
I havn't been to a pub in a few years that didn't have one of these on the corner of the bar. (sorry i couldn't find a picture but you probably know what i'm talking about)
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Or a pretzel, or even a bottle cap. Maybe the computer will think there are many different soccer balls on the playing field and start kicking madly. Perhaps in the confusion you'd be able to zip the ball around it's fenzied kickers. Worth a try... And without the opposing human to see what you're doing, who's to stop you putting beer bottles on either side of your goalie? Impossible scoring technique, ha-HA!
but I'll always be able to out-drink any machine!
I have to take issue with:"the ball comes towards you, makes contact with the bat (which has its own trajectory) and almost instantaneouly leaves in another direction. Pretty simple physics."
The "almost" in "almost instantaneously" is what allows a player to impart a great deal of spin on the ball. I'm just an adequate player but my family kill-shot doesn't just have a lot of top-spin, it has enough side spin to curve about 5 inches in the air, jump sideways when it hits the table, and bounce from the opponent's paddle (should they get the block in place) at around 30 degrees off of true when that spinning inertia resolves on their paddle. Yes, even the aerodynamics is just physics, and math IS what computers are all about, but I would opine that it is anything but simple. I don't think any computer vision system is going to be able to be able to read that spin in the near future. You have to play the player, not just the ball.
But I read your point that ping-pong and foosball are as different as apples and oranges because in foosball one gets to strike the ball multiple times and/or remain in contact with it, and it is a good point.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
I will now forever be remembered as a robot. thanks a bunch!
i think the kiro could be able to do it if you dumped the code you put there for it to go after men's penises so that you may experience erticism by proxy vicariously through the robot.
the foosball plays YOU