Apple doesn't cover hinges or plastics under warranty either (there are a few lines that had issues, that are exceptions - but that is the same with every manufacturer). Most manufacturers will also replace a machine that has issues that seem to be unresolvable (4 or 5 unrelated problems).
After the third time the SAME component fails in any machine, you will find that the vendor will usually replace it. Even Toshiba (worst reliability, cheapest quality big name company) has replaced many machines (Qosimo Q15 line with bad MoBo's... fixed a bunch, replaced a bunch).
Apple usually DOES have the best customer service out of the bunch... and rated so, year after year with IBM (until maybe recently with the Lenovo buyout of the Thinkpad line?)
As for Dell offering backup services, yes - but because they do not have in-store facilities to deal with their repairs. HP/Compaq (which is the same company) will usually ask you (if you call them for service) if you have important data - and if you say yes, they will recommend you take it to an authorized repair center and have them back up your data before it gets shipped to them - which the repair center will do as well (ship it).
Most vendors that have in-warranty techs at a store will suggest that you bring the machine into that store - and the tech in the store is supposed to recommend you get a backup if your data is important. Some people erroneously think it's just to make money off the customer... which it is NOT. Yes, making that extra money is part of the reason, but the rest is, most laptops get shipped to the manufacturer to be fixed under warranty (except simple repairs, like dead optical drive, dead HDD, keyboard) - screens, motherboards, CPUs all require shipping for almost every manufacturer. Once shipped, no matter what we/the customer writes on the service order about "DONT FORMAT MY DAMN DRIVE" is generally ignored (which lead certain companies like CompUSA to have a data backup sheet that had "YES", "NO - and I understand you are not responsible for my data loss, if it happens" (paraphrased) - with no "MAYBE" and no "DONT FORMAT" as an option.
We had a hinge issue similar to the article poster's issue, that no matter how much fighting I did, the manufacturer would not cover the repair. I fought with them, she fought with them (which was fortunate, as she saw why we wouldnt ever get the parts, and that our hands were tied) - I ended up finding a pair on eBay - for FAAAAAR cheaper than the OEM's $80 for one, $124 for the other... same deal with plastics... $350 for the LCD front bezel and LCD back cover - $40 for the pair on eBay.
With a new machine (such as the article poster's) this may not be an option as the parts may not have hit eBay yet - or the poster will need to find an earlier model with compatible hinges and plastics (IF there is one).
Regardless, as much as I love Macs (and I honestly do), though their service is usually exceptional, even their standard warranty doesnt cover broken plastics, hinges, abuse, damage from drops or liquid spills.
And like most brands, you can take out accidental damage insurance or screen protection - but that usually is 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the laptop itself.
Hmmm... nowhere did I say they wont help you... though there are reports of some issues getting that help for these problems.
The situation's resolution ranges (been there, done them all) to one of the below scenarios... in order of how many times I have encountered them (most frequent up top):
MS helps you (after a lengthy phone call proving you own the license in question, never gave out the key, etc) and you are done (till the next time you fail to validate - which sometimes occurs)
MS tells you that you have to call the OEM - who tells you (correctly) that you have to call MS - this results in a loop that may get resolved on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th call to MS... OR...
MS tells you that you have to call the OEM - who tells you (correctly) that you have to call MS - you call back MS, and they insist you must buy another copy of Windows.
The occassional user gets hit up for $$$$ for the support call - all in order to resolve an issue that was MS's fault to begin with [as I said, been there - for all of these cases... after a lengthy argument, and advising them I'm NOT the customer, but (at the time) CompUSA's Tech Manager, they usually relent and offer to help fix the issue "this time" for free (like they are going to charge me next time and are doing me a favor]
Yes, most of the time MS will help you. But honestly, if this were any other product, would you settle for one of the above hassles? Let's say you had a car and your OnStar system erroneously locked it because IT or GM decided it was stolen... and you had to jump through hoops to prove it wasnt before you were able to do much more than take your stuff out of it, or play the radio...
I'm not assuming they wont help me... I'm pointing out that their method still has flaws in it, and could potentially lead to a lot of angry, fully genuine (ie: HP, Sony, Dell, Compaq, etc) customers, who may end up suing them.
Someone else pointed out "Well, gee, the machine works still... you can still copy your documents off it to another machine... you just cant run virtually any app, or surf the web..." - which baffles me... I think he must be losing his mind if he calls that "working"... a computer isn't a 40lb USB drive. And, even if his position made any sense, not everyone has a spare machine.
Hi, just so you know, your problems with getting your laptop repaired are probably worse than you envisioned.
Please, DONT take any of this personally against YOU... it isnt. It's just what you will experience and why...
Here's why your problems may be worse:
The manufacturer's warranties do not cover broken plastics or hinges. If *you* think it is a manufacturing defect, that is usually quite irrelevant to the manufacturer (who is the one who needs to approve the in-warranty repair - and will NOT send the hinges or plastics to the repair center). (See note at bottom)
Now, I am NOT disputing that this may be a manufacturing defect - I'm advising you (from years worth of experience) what additional problems you will run into.
IF your machine is NOT an HP or Compaq, you can remove the drive and bring it someplace else for repair - explaining to them that you dont want to risk your data being lost/drive being formatted (which the vendors often do), and NOT mention Linux at all.
IF your machine IS an HP or Compaq, then you can TRY that method, BUT, HP/Compaq require service centers do a FULL diagnostic of the machine for ANY warranty work - which presents a problem if the drive is not installed. Sometimes, you will find a sympathetic service center manager who will take the machine in anyway and fudge the diag results, and send the machine to HP/Compaq with a note saying that the service center has the drive and all diags passed.
I truly think your battle will be related to the fact that plastics and hinges are not covered under warranty though. The way to TRY to combat that issue is to have documented proof that others with the SAME model are also experiencing such problems (hinge issues rarely occur to just one machine... the batch off that same assembly line will show such problems). If you can find sufficient proof that others with the same model have the same problem, then the service center manager can fight the manufacturer to try to get the plastics and hinges (which are quite expensive).
When you bring the machine back in, please keep in mind that the decision to repair the hinges and plastics is NOT up to the Service Center Manager - he does not approve the parts shipment - or the shipment of your machine to the manufacturer - the MANUFACTURER does... so be patient, and don't go off on him because the manufacturer says no - and give him as much info as you can find to help him fight their decision - BECAUSE, their decision is NO (and told to the service center managers long before you ever brought your machine in), and that NO stands except in two cases... (1) a service center manager that you have not pissed off to the point he wont fight it and/or have helped give enough proof it IS a defect, and (2) a class action lawsuit (or threat thereof) that forces a manufacturer to take the blame for it.
Keep in mind, until #2 occurs, you and the manufacturer are bound by that warranty - which states no plastics, no hinges covered - UNLESS the manufacturer is convinced it is a defect - which they won't be just because you think it is (no matter how right you are).
No problem, and my apologies... so used to too many trolls on here of late that I guess I have stopped giving people the benefit of doubt - which I should, especially since some of my early morning (before that 2nd - or 1st - cup of coffee ramble to the point that I am sure I've confused people and sounded like a troll for either misreading a post, or not making any sense in mine).:-P
That's funny... really funny... and quite wrong. The Sony we got in was sold by Best Buy - who is not a "Mom n Pop small operator" and some of the other ones I have seen came from CompUSA as well... so, I cant imagine why Circuit City would be any different.
In addition, how many "Mom n Pop small operator" sell Sony's, new in box?
And Dell is also not a "Mom n Pop small operator" - yet has experienced this problem as well.
I am NOT talking about illegitimate copies - I am talking about the verified, legitimate copies that ARE and HAVE BEEN erroneously flagged as pirated (ummm... I mean "not genuine") by MS. Hence, my NUMEROUS statements clarifying that, with percentages that reflect the legitimate copies that MS erroneously flag.
How much more plain could I make my NUMEROUS posts? Just curious.
We arent talking about companies being sued for blocking out users who ILLEGALLY use their software... we are talking about what will probably amount to millions (at only a few % error) who wil WRONGLY be affected by this. Go troll someplace else./. has too many trolls already.
Because you are missing the key factors to this. Sony probably DID... in addition, the software registered as Genuine during the setup and later updates. MS changed something in their WGA servers that caused it to fail later (whether they added more "invalid" keys or changed/broke something in their detection tools... whatever).
The fact is no OEM can test against future changes that MS makes of that sort. The problem is, the OEM and the consumer are the ones stuck with the problem - which in this case was through no fault of either.
Was it MS's fault? Maybe... but it also could have been someone else posting the Vista key somewhere... meaning neither the OEM, consumer (my customer) or MS was at fault for the mis-detection of the system... but the non-guilty parties are the ones who got stuck with fixing it. Either way, MS isnt going to admit they screwed up [unless enough people have proof they did and post it all over the web - and even then, like their WGA server outtage, they downplay it (if you remember a many hour outage was admitted to by them, then later they claimed it was only a few minutes... got slammed for that, then claimed someone loaded test code on the production servers "by accident") - somehow I wonder if that "test code" was actually a test rollout of the code to do the Vista deactivations that are now starting]
Unfortunately, it probably wont drive consumers to other OS's... If you spend a couple hundred dollars on additional software, would you just up and switch OS's - and then have to buy all new software to run on the new OS's? And where's your copy of MS Office or IE for _______ Operating System?
Don't get me wrong, I for one am happy with OpenOffice, and many other non-MS alternatives to... well anything... but the average consumer probably won't be - or won't even equate the fact that "If Ford's cars suck, I can just go buy a Honda/GM/Toyota/etc"
Consumers' understanding and perceptions of software as a tool to enable productivity (as opposed to "Internet Explorer IS the Internet, MS Office IS part of/required by my documents") will not change quick enough to allow for any sort of mass migration. Will some people switch? Probably. Will a lot - or even a decent amount? I doubt it.
Would you? Would I? Would anyone computer saavy enough to understand that an app is an enabler - not that a specific app is the be all end all... probably. But that defines a very small part of the computer owning population.
Well, the thing that I think will make it such a horrendous (and far beyond temporary inconvenience) issue is that many small to mid sized businesses buy machines with Vista (regular, home user OEM versions) on them (like walking into a Circuit City or CompUSA and buying 3 HP whatevers). If my business workstations suddenly stopped working and accused me of running a pirated copy of Windows, I think I'd find it more than a mere inconvenience...
Of course, maybe this makes a "wonderful" tool for MS to "suggest" to businesses that they move to MS's business license strategies to prevent such issues...
We just had a customer in with a Sony laptop (factory install of Vista) that wouldnt boot (complaining it wasnt a Genuine Copy of Windows - please insert Vista CD In the end, this will definitely hurt consumers - as well as pirates.
Here's MS's biggest (upcoming) issue. Their OS is installed on the majority of computers out there... even a 1% failure rate in properly detecting a Genuine copy of Windows smells to me of a MASSIVE lawsuit. I think they are taking quite a gamble...
Who cares? It means I am less likely to see an ad when I log in to FaceBook. Hooray!
To blame any of MS's ad placement on MS is ridiculous. That they (possibly) took their ads offline because they did not want them associated with a hate site is a good thing - regardless of anyone's view on "Freedom of Speech".
...assuming the/. article poster's phrasing is accurate, what's wrong with evolving GIJoe into something showing a WORLD united with a WORLDWIDE task force to ensure that EVERYONE's freedom and liberty is protected? god forbid that someone could be so forward thinking to think of the WORLD instead of just our tiny part of it.
Actually, I think marcello was trying to point out more than just UI related issues - I believe that was just an example he was citing.
MS has done a POOR job integrating their apps. Part of that is because many of them are apps that were bought, and thus dissimilar on how they implement certain functions/behaviors. As in his example, that is one of the reasons why there is little UI consistency in their apps. Now the issue I see is that UI consistency on the level marcello discussed should have been something easy to rectify a long time ago - yet MS hasn't. Apple's advantage may partially come from it being a "closed system" - but personally I think that a moot point. We aren't discussing differences in UI and integration of WordPerfect/OpenOffice and Access. We are discussing UI and integration issues in MS products with other MS products... and in that case, being a "closed system" or not, is entirely irrelevant.
In addition, as is shown by this latest move, many of their "integrated set of software and services" are only "integrated" in a fashion that MS benefits from - with the addition of some UI changes to make the "integrated set of software and services" look consistent - and even those UI changes aren't consistent enough (as has been previously complained about in respect to Vista and various MS programs that don't have the Vista look).
Currently, their integration ideas seem more related to their advertising framework than anything else. But time will tell.
Well, actually, neither are doing it to that extent... MS's plans (and patent) include things people thought were sachrosynct such as emails, Word docs, your iPod, other documents created with other MS products, and all Windows Live services - in conjunction with their earlier patent which is related; and includes grabbing and determining such things as your location, age, gender, etc...
I agree that they would have some significant hurdles to overcome... but the problem(s) I see is they wouldn't have filed the patent if they didnt intend t use it, they already announced (MS China) working test models, and they frequently (as DOJ and EU cases prove) release things of questionable legal nature and then deal with the backlash later.
And yeah, there are probably people who would welcome it.... but to the level of intrusiveness MS is discussing (emails, documents, music, Live related data) I think that number is few and far between...
Microsoft has filed a patent (here) that threatens to breathe life into Bill Gates' and Ray Ozzie's Frankenstein-like Windows Live "vision", unveiled in November 2005, for putting annoying, in-your-face internet adverts inside your most important Windows applications.
The patent and the article go into more detail... but some neat parts are section 8 and 11 - as well as the other parts that would indicate the need for a cross-program API (thus linking Word, whatever Outlook is called today, various other Live services, IE and who knows what else) in order to fulfill that need.
This new post seems to be one of the steps needed. TheRegister and others seem to have speculated such tying together of products - even before this announcement was made. If that happens, do you honestly think (that once this is out of beta) MS will ask you if you want to do this when MS has to do this in order to make their advertising/spying framework operate? I dont. Especially with the "coincidence" of this announcement being the major step that they need to make mainstream in order to make it happen.
I could be wrong... but I doubt it... and other tech people have already speculated it with the patent (and one other that I cant dig up) seem to support quite nicely.
Read the article on TheRegister - or the two patents they reference (one is in another article - and is also very relevant to Windows Live Services). My speculation on your thoughts is more accurately my re-wording them to conform to 2 (or more) patents MS has already filed for that indicate such intent.:-)
Well, my profile should confirm I am not twitter...
And my next post on this topic should point you in the right direction to point out it is perhaps far more than speculation - since MS patented something that requires them to do everything the poster I was replying to said they wouldnt.
In order for this to work, MS needs to tie together all their diverse products from all their product groups... This was the patent that was previously discussed on/. that I was referring to.
Please feel free to point me to where I am wrong...
And no, I am not going to quote the specifics of the patent any farther than I have discussed them. If you don't have a clue about a topic, don't moderate it.
Puleeez! Stop, relax, then get a clue... there was no FUD involved in my speculation - just simple track record, and plenty of facts that I go into below.
MS has OFTEN tied their services together (MSN, IE, components of Office, etc). Almost every part of their new little package is something they are trying to tie to Vista.
It currently isn't part of "Automatic Update" - but it IS still beta. That it ISNT a part now, doesnt mean that it WONT be... kinda like the whole Messenger thing for a while. Oh wait, I thought you said they dont do things like that since it's a different product group. Just like how their original intention with other parts of Windows Live (from different product groups) was to tie them into Vista. And how they have filed patents to tie them all together - and into the OS - for the purpose of gathering demographics and other info on users of any of their products.
While my post was speculation; they've already filed patents that support it, they've already done similar things with products from other groups in the past (and antitrust pressure seemed to be the only thing slowing it), and the software can easily (as they mention) update the applicable components - of which, numerous are not subscription based (and some of those, like Passport used to be in order to use many services, can become required subscriptions).
Your only supporting speculations seems to be:
This isn't something that is being bundled with Windows (Vista or otherwise), it's a download, just like the Google Pack. You can still get the programs seperately, or you can use this new installer to pick and choose. You probably meant "Until they change that... and after all it's a beta - and they better not be FORCING it on anyone at this point."?
This isn't something that will come in the form of an Automatic Update, because not only is it from different product group ("Windows Live... is branding and nothing more), You probably meant "Oh, that's really irrelevant, what was I thinking? They've done that in the past with products from different groups - especially if it extends them into another area in a monopolistic way."
but things like Live OneCare require a Paid Subscription past the trial period. You probably meant "Since the program updates and changes services that are installed, I dont know why I wrote this - it's a moot point"
Actually, this is for Vista and XP from what the article seems to infer/state.
Regardless of what the other guy who responded to you said, Yeah, it is optional now... but it is also still in beta. Only time will tell whether this becomes another "Automatic Update" item... ah well...
Here's the problem... and again, I am not saying I agree with this but...
in California, the Penal Code reads:
490.5 (f) (1) A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchant's premises.
That leaves open a VERY wide door for what the merchant can consider "probable cause" - and then left to a jury to decide if they thought the merchant had probable cause.
In addition, the other problem is this...
The 4th amendment (AKA search and seizure) only applies to the gov't. A store is private property. Different rules. When you go into almost any retail store they have a sign up somewhere, at the entrance, at customer serivice,etc. that informs the customer the store reserves the right to search any and all bags, and/or check receipts.
As choosing to be a customer, and choosing to enter private property (sorry folks, a store may be OPEN to the public, but it is still PRIVATE property), the customer is choosing to agree with those posted rules - or is usually committing trespass.
Just as if you are in a store and are loud, abusive, or whatever, and the manager asks you to leave... you BETTER leave. From that moment on, unless you are in the process of leaving, you are committing trespass. I know, I've watched "customers" being led off charged with (and found guilty of) just that during my career.
Whether the laws are correct or not won't be the issue for this guy. Whether a jury or judge decides his action fits within the requirements for "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause" as defined by the jurisdiction the store is in WILL be the deciding factor.
As for the police issue... that too he may lose... not that he should necessarily, but precedents (and worse) have been set...
The rules for police verifying your identity changed on June 21, 2004. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld a Nevada law requiring compliance with police requests for a persons identity. (Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the State of Nevada, 03-555)
The judge stated in his ruling:
...In the ordinary sense a police officer is free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Fourth Amendment.".
True... but you are forgetting "reasonable cause" varies per state... it's not a federal thing... and unless a specific state law is challenged and rendered unconstitutional, it (what is considered "reasonable cause") varies wildly per state. Not showing your receipt when asked IS a valid reason in many states. Is that right? Perhaps not - but as long as the laws stand, that aspect unfortunatley doesnt matter...:-(
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Hi Patrik,
Apple doesn't cover hinges or plastics under warranty either (there are a few lines that had issues, that are exceptions - but that is the same with every manufacturer). Most manufacturers will also replace a machine that has issues that seem to be unresolvable (4 or 5 unrelated problems).
After the third time the SAME component fails in any machine, you will find that the vendor will usually replace it. Even Toshiba (worst reliability, cheapest quality big name company) has replaced many machines (Qosimo Q15 line with bad MoBo's... fixed a bunch, replaced a bunch).
Apple usually DOES have the best customer service out of the bunch... and rated so, year after year with IBM (until maybe recently with the Lenovo buyout of the Thinkpad line?)
As for Dell offering backup services, yes - but because they do not have in-store facilities to deal with their repairs. HP/Compaq (which is the same company) will usually ask you (if you call them for service) if you have important data - and if you say yes, they will recommend you take it to an authorized repair center and have them back up your data before it gets shipped to them - which the repair center will do as well (ship it).
Most vendors that have in-warranty techs at a store will suggest that you bring the machine into that store - and the tech in the store is supposed to recommend you get a backup if your data is important. Some people erroneously think it's just to make money off the customer... which it is NOT. Yes, making that extra money is part of the reason, but the rest is, most laptops get shipped to the manufacturer to be fixed under warranty (except simple repairs, like dead optical drive, dead HDD, keyboard) - screens, motherboards, CPUs all require shipping for almost every manufacturer. Once shipped, no matter what we/the customer writes on the service order about "DONT FORMAT MY DAMN DRIVE" is generally ignored (which lead certain companies like CompUSA to have a data backup sheet that had "YES", "NO - and I understand you are not responsible for my data loss, if it happens" (paraphrased) - with no "MAYBE" and no "DONT FORMAT" as an option.
We had a hinge issue similar to the article poster's issue, that no matter how much fighting I did, the manufacturer would not cover the repair. I fought with them, she fought with them (which was fortunate, as she saw why we wouldnt ever get the parts, and that our hands were tied) - I ended up finding a pair on eBay - for FAAAAAR cheaper than the OEM's $80 for one, $124 for the other... same deal with plastics... $350 for the LCD front bezel and LCD back cover - $40 for the pair on eBay.
With a new machine (such as the article poster's) this may not be an option as the parts may not have hit eBay yet - or the poster will need to find an earlier model with compatible hinges and plastics (IF there is one).
Regardless, as much as I love Macs (and I honestly do), though their service is usually exceptional, even their standard warranty doesnt cover broken plastics, hinges, abuse, damage from drops or liquid spills.
And like most brands, you can take out accidental damage insurance or screen protection - but that usually is 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the laptop itself.
Hmmm... nowhere did I say they wont help you... though there are reports of some issues getting that help for these problems.
The situation's resolution ranges (been there, done them all) to one of the below scenarios... in order of how many times I have encountered them (most frequent up top):
Yes, most of the time MS will help you. But honestly, if this were any other product, would you settle for one of the above hassles? Let's say you had a car and your OnStar system erroneously locked it because IT or GM decided it was stolen... and you had to jump through hoops to prove it wasnt before you were able to do much more than take your stuff out of it, or play the radio...
I'm not assuming they wont help me... I'm pointing out that their method still has flaws in it, and could potentially lead to a lot of angry, fully genuine (ie: HP, Sony, Dell, Compaq, etc) customers, who may end up suing them.
Someone else pointed out "Well, gee, the machine works still... you can still copy your documents off it to another machine... you just cant run virtually any app, or surf the web..." - which baffles me... I think he must be losing his mind if he calls that "working"... a computer isn't a 40lb USB drive. And, even if his position made any sense, not everyone has a spare machine.
Hi, just so you know, your problems with getting your laptop repaired are probably worse than you envisioned.
Please, DONT take any of this personally against YOU... it isnt. It's just what you will experience and why...
Here's why your problems may be worse:
The manufacturer's warranties do not cover broken plastics or hinges. If *you* think it is a manufacturing defect, that is usually quite irrelevant to the manufacturer (who is the one who needs to approve the in-warranty repair - and will NOT send the hinges or plastics to the repair center). (See note at bottom)
Now, I am NOT disputing that this may be a manufacturing defect - I'm advising you (from years worth of experience) what additional problems you will run into.
IF your machine is NOT an HP or Compaq, you can remove the drive and bring it someplace else for repair - explaining to them that you dont want to risk your data being lost/drive being formatted (which the vendors often do), and NOT mention Linux at all.
IF your machine IS an HP or Compaq, then you can TRY that method, BUT, HP/Compaq require service centers do a FULL diagnostic of the machine for ANY warranty work - which presents a problem if the drive is not installed. Sometimes, you will find a sympathetic service center manager who will take the machine in anyway and fudge the diag results, and send the machine to HP/Compaq with a note saying that the service center has the drive and all diags passed.
I truly think your battle will be related to the fact that plastics and hinges are not covered under warranty though. The way to TRY to combat that issue is to have documented proof that others with the SAME model are also experiencing such problems (hinge issues rarely occur to just one machine... the batch off that same assembly line will show such problems). If you can find sufficient proof that others with the same model have the same problem, then the service center manager can fight the manufacturer to try to get the plastics and hinges (which are quite expensive).
When you bring the machine back in, please keep in mind that the decision to repair the hinges and plastics is NOT up to the Service Center Manager - he does not approve the parts shipment - or the shipment of your machine to the manufacturer - the MANUFACTURER does... so be patient, and don't go off on him because the manufacturer says no - and give him as much info as you can find to help him fight their decision - BECAUSE, their decision is NO (and told to the service center managers long before you ever brought your machine in), and that NO stands except in two cases... (1) a service center manager that you have not pissed off to the point he wont fight it and/or have helped give enough proof it IS a defect, and (2) a class action lawsuit (or threat thereof) that forces a manufacturer to take the blame for it.
Keep in mind, until #2 occurs, you and the manufacturer are bound by that warranty - which states no plastics, no hinges covered - UNLESS the manufacturer is convinced it is a defect - which they won't be just because you think it is (no matter how right you are).
Robert
Former Tech Manager
CompUSA
No problem, and my apologies... so used to too many trolls on here of late that I guess I have stopped giving people the benefit of doubt - which I should, especially since some of my early morning (before that 2nd - or 1st - cup of coffee ramble to the point that I am sure I've confused people and sounded like a troll for either misreading a post, or not making any sense in mine).:-P
Apologies,
Robert
That's funny... really funny... and quite wrong. The Sony we got in was sold by Best Buy - who is not a "Mom n Pop small operator" and some of the other ones I have seen came from CompUSA as well... so, I cant imagine why Circuit City would be any different.
In addition, how many "Mom n Pop small operator" sell Sony's, new in box?
And Dell is also not a "Mom n Pop small operator" - yet has experienced this problem as well.
I am NOT talking about illegitimate copies - I am talking about the verified, legitimate copies that ARE and HAVE BEEN erroneously flagged as pirated (ummm... I mean "not genuine") by MS. Hence, my NUMEROUS statements clarifying that, with percentages that reflect the legitimate copies that MS erroneously flag.
How much more plain could I make my NUMEROUS posts? Just curious.
Yeah... and that has proven unenforceable (hence the class action lawsuits).
We arent talking about companies being sued for blocking out users who ILLEGALLY use their software... we are talking about what will probably amount to millions (at only a few % error) who wil WRONGLY be affected by this. Go troll someplace else. /. has too many trolls already.
Because you are missing the key factors to this. Sony probably DID... in addition, the software registered as Genuine during the setup and later updates. MS changed something in their WGA servers that caused it to fail later (whether they added more "invalid" keys or changed/broke something in their detection tools... whatever).
The fact is no OEM can test against future changes that MS makes of that sort. The problem is, the OEM and the consumer are the ones stuck with the problem - which in this case was through no fault of either.
Was it MS's fault? Maybe... but it also could have been someone else posting the Vista key somewhere... meaning neither the OEM, consumer (my customer) or MS was at fault for the mis-detection of the system... but the non-guilty parties are the ones who got stuck with fixing it. Either way, MS isnt going to admit they screwed up [unless enough people have proof they did and post it all over the web - and even then, like their WGA server outtage, they downplay it (if you remember a many hour outage was admitted to by them, then later they claimed it was only a few minutes... got slammed for that, then claimed someone loaded test code on the production servers "by accident") - somehow I wonder if that "test code" was actually a test rollout of the code to do the Vista deactivations that are now starting]
Unfortunately, it probably wont drive consumers to other OS's... If you spend a couple hundred dollars on additional software, would you just up and switch OS's - and then have to buy all new software to run on the new OS's? And where's your copy of MS Office or IE for _______ Operating System?
Don't get me wrong, I for one am happy with OpenOffice, and many other non-MS alternatives to... well anything... but the average consumer probably won't be - or won't even equate the fact that "If Ford's cars suck, I can just go buy a Honda/GM/Toyota/etc"
Consumers' understanding and perceptions of software as a tool to enable productivity (as opposed to "Internet Explorer IS the Internet, MS Office IS part of/required by my documents") will not change quick enough to allow for any sort of mass migration. Will some people switch? Probably. Will a lot - or even a decent amount? I doubt it.
Would you? Would I? Would anyone computer saavy enough to understand that an app is an enabler - not that a specific app is the be all end all... probably. But that defines a very small part of the computer owning population.
Well, the thing that I think will make it such a horrendous (and far beyond temporary inconvenience) issue is that many small to mid sized businesses buy machines with Vista (regular, home user OEM versions) on them (like walking into a Circuit City or CompUSA and buying 3 HP whatevers). If my business workstations suddenly stopped working and accused me of running a pirated copy of Windows, I think I'd find it more than a mere inconvenience...
Of course, maybe this makes a "wonderful" tool for MS to "suggest" to businesses that they move to MS's business license strategies to prevent such issues...
Unfortunately, that is not always the case...
We just had a customer in with a Sony laptop (factory install of Vista) that wouldnt boot (complaining it wasnt a Genuine Copy of Windows - please insert Vista CD In the end, this will definitely hurt consumers - as well as pirates.
Here's MS's biggest (upcoming) issue. Their OS is installed on the majority of computers out there... even a 1% failure rate in properly detecting a Genuine copy of Windows smells to me of a MASSIVE lawsuit. I think they are taking quite a gamble...
Who cares? It means I am less likely to see an ad when I log in to FaceBook. Hooray!
To blame any of MS's ad placement on MS is ridiculous. That they (possibly) took their ads offline because they did not want them associated with a hate site is a good thing - regardless of anyone's view on "Freedom of Speech".
Well, turns out it is all a moot point since apparently RFID tags cause cancer. (Announced yesterdays printed news and on /.)
Slashdot
Oh well... (lets see if that stops the massive industry that makes them from pushing them and lobbying for their use anyway).
...assuming the /. article poster's phrasing is accurate, what's wrong with evolving GIJoe into something showing a WORLD united with a WORLDWIDE task force to ensure that EVERYONE's freedom and liberty is protected? god forbid that someone could be so forward thinking to think of the WORLD instead of just our tiny part of it.
Actually, I think marcello was trying to point out more than just UI related issues - I believe that was just an example he was citing.
MS has done a POOR job integrating their apps. Part of that is because many of them are apps that were bought, and thus dissimilar on how they implement certain functions/behaviors. As in his example, that is one of the reasons why there is little UI consistency in their apps. Now the issue I see is that UI consistency on the level marcello discussed should have been something easy to rectify a long time ago - yet MS hasn't. Apple's advantage may partially come from it being a "closed system" - but personally I think that a moot point. We aren't discussing differences in UI and integration of WordPerfect/OpenOffice and Access. We are discussing UI and integration issues in MS products with other MS products... and in that case, being a "closed system" or not, is entirely irrelevant.
In addition, as is shown by this latest move, many of their "integrated set of software and services" are only "integrated" in a fashion that MS benefits from - with the addition of some UI changes to make the "integrated set of software and services" look consistent - and even those UI changes aren't consistent enough (as has been previously complained about in respect to Vista and various MS programs that don't have the Vista look).
Currently, their integration ideas seem more related to their advertising framework than anything else. But time will tell.
Well, actually, neither are doing it to that extent... MS's plans (and patent) include things people thought were sachrosynct such as emails, Word docs, your iPod, other documents created with other MS products, and all Windows Live services - in conjunction with their earlier patent which is related; and includes grabbing and determining such things as your location, age, gender, etc...
I agree that they would have some significant hurdles to overcome... but the problem(s) I see is they wouldn't have filed the patent if they didnt intend t use it, they already announced (MS China) working test models, and they frequently (as DOJ and EU cases prove) release things of questionable legal nature and then deal with the backlash later.
And yeah, there are probably people who would welcome it.... but to the level of intrusiveness MS is discussing (emails, documents, music, Live related data) I think that number is few and far between...
:-)
Sure... they were one post up I think....
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/18/microsof t_advertising_pc_patent/
Part of which state:
Microsoft has filed a patent (here) that threatens to breathe life into Bill Gates' and Ray Ozzie's Frankenstein-like Windows Live "vision", unveiled in November 2005, for putting annoying, in-your-face internet adverts inside your most important Windows applications.Which references this Patent:
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1 =PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO% 2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220070157227%22.P GNR.&OS=DN/20070157227&RS=DN/20070157227
The patent and the article go into more detail... but some neat parts are section 8 and 11 - as well as the other parts that would indicate the need for a cross-program API (thus linking Word, whatever Outlook is called today, various other Live services, IE and who knows what else) in order to fulfill that need.
This new post seems to be one of the steps needed. TheRegister and others seem to have speculated such tying together of products - even before this announcement was made. If that happens, do you honestly think (that once this is out of beta) MS will ask you if you want to do this when MS has to do this in order to make their advertising/spying framework operate? I dont. Especially with the "coincidence" of this announcement being the major step that they need to make mainstream in order to make it happen.
I could be wrong... but I doubt it... and other tech people have already speculated it with the patent (and one other that I cant dig up) seem to support quite nicely.
-Robert
Hey Jon,
Read the article on TheRegister - or the two patents they reference (one is in another article - and is also very relevant to Windows Live Services). My speculation on your thoughts is more accurately my re-wording them to conform to 2 (or more) patents MS has already filed for that indicate such intent. :-)
-Robert
Well, my profile should confirm I am not twitter...
And my next post on this topic should point you in the right direction to point out it is perhaps far more than speculation - since MS patented something that requires them to do everything the poster I was replying to said they wouldnt.
For the idiot mod who thinks the above post was trolling...
MS Advertising Patent
In order for this to work, MS needs to tie together all their diverse products from all their product groups... This was the patent that was previously discussed on /. that I was referring to.
Please feel free to point me to where I am wrong...
And no, I am not going to quote the specifics of the patent any farther than I have discussed them. If you don't have a clue about a topic, don't moderate it.
Puleeez! Stop, relax, then get a clue... there was no FUD involved in my speculation - just simple track record, and plenty of facts that I go into below.
MS has OFTEN tied their services together (MSN, IE, components of Office, etc). Almost every part of their new little package is something they are trying to tie to Vista.
It currently isn't part of "Automatic Update" - but it IS still beta. That it ISNT a part now, doesnt mean that it WONT be... kinda like the whole Messenger thing for a while. Oh wait, I thought you said they dont do things like that since it's a different product group. Just like how their original intention with other parts of Windows Live (from different product groups) was to tie them into Vista. And how they have filed patents to tie them all together - and into the OS - for the purpose of gathering demographics and other info on users of any of their products.
While my post was speculation; they've already filed patents that support it, they've already done similar things with products from other groups in the past (and antitrust pressure seemed to be the only thing slowing it), and the software can easily (as they mention) update the applicable components - of which, numerous are not subscription based (and some of those, like Passport used to be in order to use many services, can become required subscriptions).
Your only supporting speculations seems to be:
Sorry, that's what I read in your post...
-Robert
Actually, this is for Vista and XP from what the article seems to infer/state.
Regardless of what the other guy who responded to you said, Yeah, it is optional now... but it is also still in beta. Only time will tell whether this becomes another "Automatic Update" item... ah well...
Here's the problem... and again, I am not saying I agree with this but...
in California, the Penal Code reads:
490.5 (f) (1) A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchant's premises.That leaves open a VERY wide door for what the merchant can consider "probable cause" - and then left to a jury to decide if they thought the merchant had probable cause.
In addition, the other problem is this...
The 4th amendment (AKA search and seizure) only applies to the gov't. A store is private property. Different rules. When you go into almost any retail store they have a sign up somewhere, at the entrance, at customer serivice,etc. that informs the customer the store reserves the right to search any and all bags, and/or check receipts.
As choosing to be a customer, and choosing to enter private property (sorry folks, a store may be OPEN to the public, but it is still PRIVATE property), the customer is choosing to agree with those posted rules - or is usually committing trespass.
Just as if you are in a store and are loud, abusive, or whatever, and the manager asks you to leave... you BETTER leave. From that moment on, unless you are in the process of leaving, you are committing trespass. I know, I've watched "customers" being led off charged with (and found guilty of) just that during my career.
Whether the laws are correct or not won't be the issue for this guy. Whether a jury or judge decides his action fits within the requirements for "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause" as defined by the jurisdiction the store is in WILL be the deciding factor.
As for the police issue... that too he may lose... not that he should necessarily, but precedents (and worse) have been set...
The rules for police verifying your identity changed on June 21, 2004. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld a Nevada law requiring compliance with police requests for a persons identity. (Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the State of Nevada, 03-555)
The judge stated in his ruling:
...In the ordinary sense a police officer is free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Fourth Amendment.".
Sucks but true...
True... but you are forgetting "reasonable cause" varies per state... it's not a federal thing... and unless a specific state law is challenged and rendered unconstitutional, it (what is considered "reasonable cause") varies wildly per state. Not showing your receipt when asked IS a valid reason in many states. Is that right? Perhaps not - but as long as the laws stand, that aspect unfortunatley doesnt matter... :-(