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Retailer Refuses Hardware Repair Due To Linux
Tikka writes "Today I visited PC World (London, UK) because my 5-month-old laptop has developed a manufacturing fault: the hinge to the display has started to crack the plastic casing. Anyone in the know will know that this is due to the joint inside, and it means that in time the screen will separate from the keyboard. Repair was refused, because I have Gentoo Linux on my laptop, replacing the Windows Vista that was pre-installed. PC World said that installing Linux had voided my warranty and there is nothing they will do for me. I spoke to a manager, who said that he has been told to refuse any repairs if the operating system has been changed. I feel this has really gone against my statutory rights and I will do everything I can to fight it. I will review comments for your advice."
Are you absolutely sure Linux did not cause that crack to form? Think about it, the laptop was rated obviously Vista® capable... did you see anything on the case to indicate Linux capable?
I think the best thing to do would be to publish as broadly as you can the make and model of this laptop and its shortcomings, better to serve others to avoid this vendor.
Hardware problem caused by software? I know Windows 95 caused hardware problems before, but never with a hinge.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
How is this a YRO story and not a ask slashdot story? kdawson, use some editing power! There isn't even a single link in the summary!
I can understand the company having policies, but this is a case where a manager clearly should have used his authority for a one-time override. Next time I guess you'll be taking your business elsewhere, I bet? So, they are the ones who goofed up.
Spray paint it yellow, burn it on the sidewalk outside the shop with a sign
that says "this was a lemon and I purchased it here", then go buy an apple
and forget you ever got entangled in the Microsoft of Borg.
re-install windows and go back to them (or another outlet). It's as easy as this.
Everyones knows with Linux you've been bashing your laptops shell. Of course your hinge is messed up.
You shouldn't have to, and if you're doing this on principle, then maybe you don't want to. But it would probably make things easier for you next time. I imagine a default drive image doesn't take much space and compresses fairly well.
You are in the UK. I've heard you guys have good false-advertising and consumer-protection laws. File a complaint.
Even better, get a local paper to embarrass the manufacturer into compliance.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Simple fix. Get Dom Joly to deliver a guy in the sad penguin suit to the store. If that doesn't get the message across have him deliver another one every day till the store is full of penguins.
Swi
If you still have the warranty, why not return it to acer? The seem to accept laptops no matter what OS they have on them. (at least when i have had to send mine in)
The poster must be leaving something out, like the big spoiler on the screen, neon lights, and the Type R sticker that he riced^Wmodded the laptop with.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
For those of us on the new side of the pond, it will be interesting to see how UK consumer protection laws compare with US consumer protection laws (such as they are). In the US, the consumer would have several options, including consulting the Better Business Bureau and also with the various state Attorneys General offices. Good luck!
This is the same crap the RIAA and MPAA are doing with digital media. What has "fair use" become??
First, check warranty conditions. Next, if you did indeed void your warranty, then reinstall Windows and go to a different store or return to the same store during a different shift. If you did not void your warranty, then return to the store and ask them to show you where the "no linux" clause is in the warranty text. Give 'em hell.
Incorrect section? Check
Useless "article" with no links? Check
Posted by kdawson? Check
What is funny about these types of stories on Slashdot is outside of the usual +5 Insightful cries of juvenile Indignation and sarcasm they just continue to illustrate just how utterly clueless the open source world is how far Linux really is from any real acceptance in the commercial world outside of the server room.
Your first stop should be the local trading standards office.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
I thought we already heard this song and dance once before.
Could it be possible that Linux utilized different parts of the laptop more than Windows would have, thus creating more heat near the hinge & causing a failure prematurely ?
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
Maybe you're screwed, maybe not. England isn't the socialist utopia the rest of Europe is, but its also not the kill-the-consumer wasteland the USA is.
Talk to a solicitor/barrister/whatever-you-people-call-it.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
What exactly does the warranty document state. If there's no clause about installing a different operating system, then the haven't got a leg to stand on.
It shouldn't matter what operating system is installed. Many (most?) of the large retailers will tell you to expect your hard disk to be reformatted with a "Recovery Disk" when you send your computer in to be repaired. I doubt if they would even try to boot off a virgin customer disk do to liability and privacy issues. This is a case of warranties gone wrong and managers not having common sense to resolve issues outside (the warranty) box. My advice: take it up the chain of command, or threaten to sue them. That seems to get the ball rolling in my professional and personal experience.
Can you just reinstall windows vista and take it back another time or to another location? (or buy a mac :P)
Go over the store manager's head, contact the corporate staff of PC World.
Check with the manufacturer of the laptop as a possible repair vector.
Contact any business associations in the area for advice.
If you have money to burn and you want to press things to a point that will drive them nuts, involve the legal system.
And as others have said, why is this in YRO? I know the "editors" don't really do as the name of the position implies, and I know kdawson is even less diligent than usual, but jeepers cats man, come on.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
Isn't Linux Adoption considerably more commonplace in Europe?
I think what he is currently doing (spreading the word of bad service to a great deal number of people via Slashdot) is a great first step. Spread the word everywhere you can, including local media. Then write a letter to the regional/corporate headquarters for PC World, and explain the amount of bad publicity they have received due to a manager's insistence that it is PC World's policy to weasel out of warranty repairs.
I've never heard of PC World as a manufacturer, and I'm assuming they are a British retailer. Warranty repairs are paid for by the manufacturer, and PC World doesn't lose any money by making the repair. They just authorize it and bill the manufacturer.
All in all, this was a really poor decision by a manager. I'm sure that is the only time anyone has ever typed that sentence on Slashdot.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Why do you have to turn it on to show a broken hinge. And who requested the repairs to be rejected?
As in most religions, it's the followers that turn people off to the religion. And Mac users are the worst.
I would ask to see that policy in writing. Also, you should check the manufacturer's warranty. If it does say that, it would be a good brand to avoid in the future.
Stand outside the store with a big sign ("ASK ME HOW PC WORLD RIPPED ME OFF") and patiently explain to everyone coming by what happened. The manager will be out in 15 minutes to kiss your ass clean.
Can we please start keeping all posts regarding kdawson in a single thread? That way he won't overload the server, while using the search function to troll for his name.
<voice=Shatner>KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKDAWSON!!!</voice>
It can be a pain but assuming that you really want the hinge fixed and have backup up your data why not just blast your hard drive. Now take it back to the store and claim that the OS hosed itself and also ask them to fix the hinge at the same time. They will try to charge you to load Windoze again but just politely refuse and ask them to look into the cause of the OS "hosing" itself and then bring up the hinge fixing bit. If your are well organized it shouldn't take that long to rebuild the machine.
The laptop was designed to be unusable, that's why it had Vista installed. If you can't use it, it won't break. By installing an operating system that could make use of the hardware, you subjected the laptop to use it was not designed to take and voided the warranty. If you read the EULA closely you'll see that any computer with Vista installed is not actually intended to be used.
#emerge display_hinge_2.0
The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act is a US federal consumer protection law setting requirements for consumer product warranties. One key provision of the act is that a warranty cannot be voided by the use of "unapproved" or "aftermarket" parts, or by modification, unless it can be proven that the damage or failure was caused by that action. The legal burden of proof is on the manufacturer to demonstrate that the customer's actions caused the problem. The intent of this law was to prevent manufacturers from locking customers into using only their own consumables and replacement parts -- a practice that was popular at the time, with products ranging from vacuum cleaners (generic-brand bags void warranty) to cars (OEM replacements parts only, or the whole warranty is void). Many companies will still try to dishonor a warranty if a product has been modified, but this is clearly illegal and case law has upheld the consumer's right to modify products and use "unapproved" accessories and replacements time after time. Long story short -- in the US, you shove the laptop where the sun don't shine and threaten to sue (the American Way). In the UK? I don't know.
I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
Check your purchase receipt and the "warranty" document and then, when you find no limitation on OS installation you should then contact the current Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Consumers and Corporate Affairs and relate the story.
The other alternative is to locate a reputable Solicitor with consumer protection experience. The first is free - the second might be able to earn his/her fee from the other side (the "British Rule" albeit something on the wain)...
As others have noted - an OS cannot break a hinge.
I just bought 3 equivalent new machines and installed Feisty Fawn on all three, one for my parents, one for my wife's sister and one for ourselves. One of the machines wouldn't show any network activity, so I started looking at it closely, the network card is part of the MB and the port wouldn't light up either of the two LEDs, so I thought this was the hardware, brought the one machine back to the store. They just sold the 3 machines to me, I told them the problem and that the other 2 were OK. What do you think happens when I come back to the store? The machine has Windows XP on it, and Ubuntu is completely wiped out (fscking Windows wouldn't even ask whether to install on the free space without removing the other OS or not.) So I am sitting here right now, reinstalling everything. At least they wouldn't deny looking at it, but you'd think that they wouldn't just wipe everything off and for what? What, no boot disk in the entire shop? Good thing it was totally new, so nothing was lost.
You can't handle the truth.
I doubt that they will repair the laptop today, but next month when they get 1,000 emails telling PC World corporate that "I'm in the market for a new laptop/desktop and was planning to purchase my next on from you... But now that you have adequately demonstarted you do not support hardware agreements because users choose to install Linux on their boxes, I will just have to get my hardware from somewhere else...
maybe that will get their "bottom line" attention
I've seen this before. As a matter of fact, most of us have. Dell did the same thin and had an uprising of Ubuntu users and eventually caved. We all know how this will end.
The game.
Forget what the management "has been told" or "tells you": find the warranty papers and see if it says anything about voiding warranty for systems with changed operating system.
Throw the legal papers in his face; hit him on the head with the broken laptop; and then tell him to fix it.
Sale of Goods Act Quick Facts
Subject: Sale of Goods Act, Faulty Goods.
Relevant or Related Legislation: Sale of Goods Act 1979. Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994. The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.
Key Facts:
Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.
Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.
It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.
If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)
For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).
A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.
If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit
In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).
If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)
After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.
Q14. Where can I get further advice?
Contact Consumer Direct at: www.consumerdirect.gov.uk (Tel: 08454 04 05 06). Consumers in Northern Ireland should contact Consumer Line on 0845 600 6262.
http://www.berr.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html
Seems like we just went through this discussion. OK, it was a few months back, but it's the same sad story.
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/27/1753218
you'd have the magnus-moss act to fall back on
You did it wrong. Do you plan to sue the guy? A better option would be to reveal his NAME and the NAME OF HIS BUSINESS to us. That way, we can call him up with profanities, write him nasty emails, etc. Right now, all we can do is bitch about some anonymous asshole. Give us details. Who is the idiot perpetrator?
Exactly. I've known people to do that with windows because of Quicken data that they didn't want stolen. It is certainly worth a shot.
First of all, what are you thinking even buying from PC World in the first place? Everyone knows they are overpriced, have dreadful after sales service, and have clueless sales droids who generally can't spell Linux, let alone know how to use it. About the only thing that isn't overpriced there is printer paper. I wish you well, but I'd be very surprised if you get far with them. They seem to think the world consists of Windows, with a token ghetto into which they unfairly throw anything by Apple.
Once in a blue moon, you may come across a sales assistant there who actually has a passing interest in computers, but the majority are (a) under 20 and seem to be on some government sponsored young people's job's for morons scheme, and (b) more interested in texting their friends on their mobile phones than serving customers.
And you then expect them to be able to deal with a customer with a clue? They'll revert to the only thing they are comfortable with "it's not windows, therefore it must be bad and must void the guarantee". We know that they are blatantly in the wrong here, but I suspect it will be expensive to retain a lawyer to give them the legal kicking they so richly deserve.
I don't think I know anybody who hasn't got a horror story about PC World. They are useless.
I had the same sort of issue a few months back, bad USB port on an HP (Which they are famous for) and I didn't want some assclown to poke though my stuff. I just dup'ed it then did a wipe and put a clean vanilla install of XP on it. Didn't even activate it or install drivers. Ran the OS install then packed it up for shipping.
These people just are not smart at all. If you have no power and no screen they still want to know what OS is on it even if it won't boot. They might as well be robots and you should treat them as such.
And to the original poster of the article Tikka most of all your stupid for thinking that this wouldn't happen. Your an arrogant clueless fool.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
While working tech support for an elementary school, I encountered a G3 iMac that wouldn't boot properly and "sad mac-d". I was able to get the error codes and it showed bad motherboard. I called up Apple tech support, explained the situation and gave the phone tech the codes I'd received and mentioned the symptoms I'd noticed. I was then asked what software we were running. The school happened to have an older version of Microsoft works or some such (this was over 8 years ago, forgive me if I'm foggy on the details) and, humoring the phone support tech, I mentioned the software. I was promptly informed that Microsoft Works was clearly causing the computer not to boot, Apple didn't support it, and not to call again with this problem. Figuring I wouldn't get anywhere with this guy, I hung up, called again, explained the problem to the new tech and Apple had a man on site in 48 hours to replace the motherboard. Unsurprisingly, the computer with the new motherboard worked fine with the old version of works - just like the 100+ other iMacs on the campus.
I assume the tech was simply lazy and was looking for a way out. Had to be pretty lazy to not want to fill out a simple form. He also could've been extremely stupid. But in any case, it's not unheard of, even from a company supposedly known for customer service like Apple.
When I was fixing laptops - Compaq in this case - we had many laptops come in with no HDD (security reasons) In any case we would test them with our own drives with test S/W on them.
Semper ubi sub ubi
Make sure it is the one that covers the area where the store is located. Trading Standards Officers are a pretty smart bunch.
You know that bit of the fine print that says "this does not affect your statutory rights" ? Well, it doesn't. Moreover retailers CANNOT deny you your statutory rights, they can only give you additional rights. Finally, you can only be bound by contractual terms that you are made aware of BEFORE you enter in to the contract. Did they tell you: no HW repairs if you install Linux BEFORE you bought it ? Seriously call trading standards, they'll sort you out in a jiffy.
(As an aside, don't give PC World any more of your money. I was assaulted by a security guard for refusing to hand over my carrier bag for a search as I was exiting the Reading store. The entire Dixons Stores Group is notorious for trampling on your statutory rights, and assuming that their customers know little about their consumer rights.)
there's got to be more of a story here.
First, a broken hinge doesn't even need the system to be turned on to demonstrate. I'm betting the guy was just an ass to the customer service there, and broke the laptop himself. Look at the only details he gives:
"...the hinge to the display has started to crack the plastic casing. Anyone in the know will know that this is due to the joint inside...
What the fark is that supposed to mean? Sounds to me like you hit it on something, jerked it open too far, or such. Little light on the detail of what happened, but perfectly willing to name the store. There isn't even a link for a picture or such? Or maybe something simple like, I dunno, the type of laptop it was? And minor details like whether or not you, after taking it in, bothered to check the warranty for such a clause?
That you don't mention these things is very damning. At least, to me it is...I'm sure plenty of people will lemming all over it though.
Meh, whatever.
This case is black letter law, they have to service it. The material you're looking for is called the Magnuson-Moss Act, and briefly it requires that a warranty on one part not be invalidated by changes to another part, where a "part" is recognized by brand name.
Microsoft Windows is a brand name, and replacing it can not void the warranty on the hinge.
Contact your own lawyer for laws that apply in your area. If you're not interested in ponying up for a lawyer, then dealing with the company and their own corporate policies is the best you can ever get (id est, whatever they say, goes).
They are pretty good at resolving issues like this.
I find this disturbing. They seem to be pushing the idea that your laptop is not a tool that you own, and can use to your best advantage. They are saying that your laptop is a service that they allow you to use, as long as you don't abuse it by using it in a way that they do not officially sanction. Make a fuss. Write letters to the editor of your local paper. Talk to the science and technology reporter, offering it as a possible story line. You could get some mileage out of this.
I reckon you have an open and shut case [if you will excuse the pun]. Write a letter to PC World [make it registered delivery so you know it was received] pointing out that the laptop has a MECHANICAL defect and you require it to be fixed. Be sure to include when and where you bought it, COPY of receipt, the managers response and a picture if you can of the damage. The fact that you have changed the operating system is of no consequence as its a mechanical hinge. Make it polite but also point out that PC World has a reponsibility under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and they are in breach of that. If PC World say take it up with the manufacturer, ignore that, your sale contract is with PC World.
If PC World still refuse [and they probably will] then take them to the small claims court. As long as you have documentation, letters, dates and can prove that you have given them ample opportunity to resolve the matter there is a good chance the Judge will rule in your favour. Collecting your money after that can be a bit of a pain, but you will get it - they are not a 2bit operation after all.
See this link to the DTI, especially Q3 and Q10. Be polite but stick to your guns.
Should it not be slashdotted? http://www.pcworld.co.uk/
You stuffed a damn penguin into the thing and you wonder why the hinge broke!?!?!
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
We'll there is but a simple answer to this problem. Since we Linux users are all crackers, then we must be able to crack the warranty in a similar fashion as the hinge. Therefore all we need to do is take this warranty and post it to the proper place in the Linux Community thereby allowing those with the proper knowledge in that particular subarea to crack this warranty. Then take this cracked warranty to the store where you went before, knowing full well that the cracking was superbly done allowing you to get by without being noticed for having a cracked warranty. Also you will need to crack the designed for Vista sticker to make it designed for Gentoo.
Communism will never work. People LIKE to own things.
Obviously in this particular case linux couldn't have caused the problem, but in general, the idea that linux could cause hardware damage doesn't seem patently absurd to me. ACPI on linux is still hit or miss thanks to non-standards compliant hardware. I had at least one time where linux failed to throttle the CPU properly, causing my Dell Inspiron 5150 to run around 20C hotter in linux than on windows. Clearly a bad ACPI driver can damage hardware.
E = m c^3 Don't drink and derive E = m c^3
In the US, there is a common law that states any product must be fit for it's intended purpose and thus carries an implied warranty. I bought a computer from Fry's, 1 month store and 1 year manufacturer's warranty. It failed after 17 months. I asked them to fix it or replace it or give me my money back. They refused so I filed a claim in small claims court for all the costs involved. They called 30 minutes after the summons arrived and paid all costs. Fit for it's intended purpose means the product should last as long as any other like product - for computers that should be about 5 years.
Altering a consumer item does not void the warranty unless it can be shown that the alteration caused the failure. It is the responsbility of the warranty issuer to prove it if indeed it is the consumer's fault. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act
Don't listen to the constant FUD that modding anything you buy voids the warranty. It doesn't. Manufacturers can say that it does, but it's a lie.
I've been used linux on laptops since 1995; whenever I sent the laptops for warranty repairs I restored the original operating system, usually in a virgin state, without my personal information.
The first thing to do when you get a laptop, is boot from a linux CD and make an image of the original drive (your choice, with dd or partimage, whaterver). Keep this image as long as waranty lasts, then you can dispose of it. You should do this especially if you buy a laptop from a linux unfriendly company, such as Sony. Dont mention linux to technical support. There is only one exception, when it is obviously a hardware problem and thechnical support people try to convince you that is a win driver problem. If there is no other way of convincing them tell them that the same problem exists both in win and linux. Dont tell them you installed linux on the hard disk, just say that you booted from a linux cd.
If you shut up and dont mention the world 'linux' you'll be fine. Learn to live with it!. It is about the same situation with Muslim and/or Arabs in the US, they should keep a low profile and never ever say they are Muslim or Arabs. It has been the same throughout hiostory. In Christian Spain after 1492 Muslim and Jews pretended to be Christians. Today 20% of Egypt population is Coptic Christian. They keep a low profile, they DO KNOW that compared to Muslims they are second class citizens and keep their mouth shut.
As someone who has worked in tech support for many years (and as such is pretty familiar with the BS that goes on in these companies), I do everything I can to make the product look just like it did when it came out of the box before I send/take it to tech support. I remove everything I've added, put back everything I took out, and I make sure the HDD has a clean install of whatever shipped with it.
You can make a very good case that this shouldn't be necessary, but if what you want is your product fixed in a timely manner, its the best course of action.
If he has a hardware problem he needs to go to the harware manufacturer not the retail outlet.
If I had any problems with any of said machines though I wouldn't let PC World near them and would go straight to the manufacturer.
As for this case, you're probably best doing just that and sending it to Acer. On the other hand however, it might be an idea to speak to the store manager armed with the appropriate bit of legislation and tell him that if he doesn't honour the warranty, then you'll report him to Trading Standards and let Acer know about it too (for the greater good and all that). Mentioning the right to start a civil action against PC World's parent company DSG wouldn't do any harm either.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel."
You could burn a bunch of live cds ,sneak in while the help is touching each others bottoms 'round back and reboot all their boxen to live cds .Shout "Fix that morons!" as you leave.
Check back later to see if they really figured it out.
(Remember kids,recycling old live distro disks is fun when the jokes on them.I like to recycle at *est *uy because they really go into convulsions)
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Gentoo was so difficult to install that it forced him to hit the laptop in frustration, breaking the hinge. :)
thats a first i ever heard of any company refusing a pc couse it has linux. its a hardware issue so it doesent matter whats on the pc. i have had linux on my pc for years and i rember having issues with my isp and this is softwhere hear and all they said is we dont support linux but we will still try and help pretty mutch asking if i can take there steps to fix a issue witch of course i could do in linux just a bit diffrently. i have never been turned away both hardwhere and softwhere just couse my pcs powerd by linux. i have to agree with most people thers more to this then what being said. the worst thing they could say is we dont support the softwhere but they cant say that abought hardware. maybe there where pissed they didnt knoe how to steal his info in linux hehe.
You wouldn't drop a laptop off for repairs with your personal data on it, right?
If they really feel the need to boot the machine in order to replace the hinges, their tech should have access to a suitable HDD to swap in.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Don't go for a court case, you are not fit for it. First learn to write well. You have not even mentioned what country you are from!
now we even have topics without any supporting links making to the main page. At least when dupes are posted they have links to follow.
In store they're pretty much rubbish, with a lot the employees being school leavers with barely any training. It doesn't surprise me at all that you met someone who didn't realise the real problem or a manager who wanted to get out of repairing a laptop for free.
Try complaining higher up than in store pointing out that a structural defect can't have been caused by software... there are contact details for their complaints department on their website: http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/editorial/Customer_Services (phone/email/snail mail).
Bring your gun next time. You need to make sure it is with you so that you can shoot the motherfucker who says something like this in the heat of the moment so that it won't be considered first degree homicide. If you have to go home and get the gun, it tends to lead juries to think that it is premeditated.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
i have called Apple support for my hackintosh (Dell Inspiron 2200 running OS X) for help getting my external monitor to display at higher resolutions. I just told them the "I just click next" argument and told them that it was on a dell becuase the VGA port was different. This confused him but beyond that they provided support for a stolen product on non-legal hardware. The lesson of this is that if Apple can be that accomodating other companies should be more accomadating to legal and non destructive OS changes.
There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum. --Arthur C. Clarke
This sounds insane. Please tell which manufacturer, so we know that we should not to buy this brand!
Anyway, this can't be true anyway. No hardware manufacturer could be so abusive against its customers.I know a bunch of people here will tell you to complain to any number of places, threaten legal action, etc. But I remember a story a while back about a guy who bought a car from a dealership for a great price (haggled) and was eligible for an additional discount which the dealer failed to mention. The dealer refused to give back the difference. So this guy threatened to stand around the store and tell everyone what horrible service they have, not to buy there etc. This quickly prompted the dealer to resolve the issue.
The moral is, first try to threaten them with something tangible (bad PR) rather than complaining or using threat of lawsuit. Particularly, threaten to talk to a reporter who has expressed an interest in the story (even if there isn't one) and to stand outside their store on public property and say what bad service the store has etc. That might encourage the manager to be more polite. Also, try calling some corporate office and escalating it that way - usually those managers, from my experience, have much more power.
I don't know the UK laws, but it seems to me that a company has to have a have reasonable excuse for denying a warranty. A failure of the mechanical assembly is only eligible for the determination that it was a defect in manufacture, or damage from abuse.
It's like the situation if you bought a new car and were not satisfied with the "new car" aroma.
You went down and got an air freshener to make it smell better. Then when your brakes broke they say it was the air freshener???
C'mon! You just removed the stink of "Vista" and put a decent OS. Not a darned thing to do with the hinge. That ought to help you get their unfair stipulation voided in your friendly local court!
you are screwed.
ahem, this is a molehill. Let's clarify a few things while we give the benefit of the doubt to the service center, just for a moment. Did you purchase the laptop with this OS on it? Do you expect them to be experts on everything? No, they are experts at supporting what they sold you. Suppose during the course of the repair they decide to replace the display or even the system board. Would you rather they test it or just send it back to you with some screws missing and your HDD formatted. Better to back up the drive yourself, put windows back on and tell them you suspect problems with the drive - which would be true if you just put windows on it. No sense arguing with robots that are trained to do only one thing and only one way. Hope they fix it for you instead of saying you voided the warranty by treating your laptop like a frisbee. The main thing to remember is to play the system. The first tech you talk to is trained to help you as long as you let him, it doesn't cost him anything. If you force him outside his rulebook or comfort zone, the manager gets involved and defends the worker and you are SOL.
had about that same fight with Circuit city over an HP that I put XP on when it came with vista. My Dell has had XP x64, vista, gentoo, ubuntu and knoppix on it, and is still under warranty... Just got to watch what you buy.
Tell that guy to go back to school.
Maybe he'll find that using Linux may break his fingers as well
I was told this past week that I could not get any support for my HP network printer because they did not support connecting it to a switch. You are only allowed to connect it to a router.
I'm posting this message, but I'm not this person!!
Or even Marc Barrett... At least those epic trolls had a measure of entertainment value.
Nothing like this odious and boring kdawson git.
Remove the disk drive and tell them the information is classified and highly sensitive.
Why not just restore it and take it back under a different manager? Talk to them, they will usually be cool about things. Just don't give them a reason to deny you. Give them every reason to help you. Treat them nice and work with them.
:-o
Certainly use a vendor that won't strand you. discountlaptops.com or dell.com .
For all the kdawson haters out there (don't worry...I am a self admitted KDH too).
Go do the following:
Preferences -> Homepage -> Customize Stories on the Homepage -> Authors
uncheck kdawson (AKA [shatner voice]kkkkkkkkkkkkkkdawson[/shatner voice])
Only then, will your homepage stop looking like Digg.
Good Luck! You are only a few clicks away from sanity.
I want my! I want my! I want my Eee PC!
Q. Why don't the Brits build computers?
A. Because they can't think of a way to make them leak oil.
Take them to small claims or better business. They will fold like a house of cards, they just want to try it on in the hope you give up.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Report the facts of the matter to his office. Printed letter form is usually best. Attach your contact info. Notify the shop that you've registered a complaint with the ombudsman's office and/or local trading standards whatchamacallit.
Sometimes the fear of getting a bad rep will set them straight. Other times, they'll decide to tough it out. In any case you're likely to end up having to pay for repairs yourself, even if you're right.
If you find the right authorized service center they might not care. I know if I got it I would fix it and not worry about it. If it's the right brand I might be able to help.
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
Of course it's:
# USE="hardened" emerge gfx-hardware/display-hinge
He didn't emerge it with the hardened flag the first time, which is why it broke. Duh.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
I am sure the warranty refusal is absolute bunk and I hope you give 'em hell at the trading standards office, and/or local newspaper.
But I have actually have seen a bad Windows NT driver consistently blow up dozens of video cards in a Dell desktop. It seems the video card had some key settings stored in an onboard flash memory. For some reason, the NT ( supposedly didn't happen under 98 ) drivers kept repeatedly writing something to the flash. Why they didn't cache and write only on shutdown I don't know, but the end effect was a video output that was suddenly smeared to hell after a few days of use. A fresh video card would fix the problem for one work week, until its flash was also worn out. So the O/S or at least the driver that shipped with the OS can blow up hardware. ( Obviously didn't happen in your case )
If you play around with your xorg.conf monitor settings, be ye warned that over-clocking it can also fry a CRT monitor, although I doubt it would happen with an LCD/Laptop. ( Worst you would probably get is no video and/or crash X windows )
My rights don't need management.
I worked for Currys for eight years, and that manager is talking rubbish. We as a company won't resolves issues that stem from you changing your operating system, but for an actual hardware fault your warranty is still good. Please contact me.
Call the tabloids.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I bought a $1700 battalion laptop from ibuypower.com that had (and has) the same problems, I tried to return it while it was still under warrenty and they told me it wasn't covered because it was caused from "regular use".
Corporations are bad, whats the phrase? "How many mistakes have to be made before we question [corporations] right to exist?
If you were in Germany you would have been dragged to the courts for installing a hackers's OS full of hacking tools.
if(Author == "kdawson") { DELETE FROM screen WHERE Author="kdawson"; INSERT INTO reason VALUES "Author continuously disappoints with sub-par crap."; }
The game.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hi, just so you know, your problems with getting your laptop repaired are probably worse than you envisioned.
Please, DONT take any of this personally against YOU... it isnt. It's just what you will experience and why...
Here's why your problems may be worse:
The manufacturer's warranties do not cover broken plastics or hinges. If *you* think it is a manufacturing defect, that is usually quite irrelevant to the manufacturer (who is the one who needs to approve the in-warranty repair - and will NOT send the hinges or plastics to the repair center). (See note at bottom)
Now, I am NOT disputing that this may be a manufacturing defect - I'm advising you (from years worth of experience) what additional problems you will run into.
IF your machine is NOT an HP or Compaq, you can remove the drive and bring it someplace else for repair - explaining to them that you dont want to risk your data being lost/drive being formatted (which the vendors often do), and NOT mention Linux at all.
IF your machine IS an HP or Compaq, then you can TRY that method, BUT, HP/Compaq require service centers do a FULL diagnostic of the machine for ANY warranty work - which presents a problem if the drive is not installed. Sometimes, you will find a sympathetic service center manager who will take the machine in anyway and fudge the diag results, and send the machine to HP/Compaq with a note saying that the service center has the drive and all diags passed.
I truly think your battle will be related to the fact that plastics and hinges are not covered under warranty though. The way to TRY to combat that issue is to have documented proof that others with the SAME model are also experiencing such problems (hinge issues rarely occur to just one machine... the batch off that same assembly line will show such problems). If you can find sufficient proof that others with the same model have the same problem, then the service center manager can fight the manufacturer to try to get the plastics and hinges (which are quite expensive).
When you bring the machine back in, please keep in mind that the decision to repair the hinges and plastics is NOT up to the Service Center Manager - he does not approve the parts shipment - or the shipment of your machine to the manufacturer - the MANUFACTURER does... so be patient, and don't go off on him because the manufacturer says no - and give him as much info as you can find to help him fight their decision - BECAUSE, their decision is NO (and told to the service center managers long before you ever brought your machine in), and that NO stands except in two cases... (1) a service center manager that you have not pissed off to the point he wont fight it and/or have helped give enough proof it IS a defect, and (2) a class action lawsuit (or threat thereof) that forces a manufacturer to take the blame for it.
Keep in mind, until #2 occurs, you and the manufacturer are bound by that warranty - which states no plastics, no hinges covered - UNLESS the manufacturer is convinced it is a defect - which they won't be just because you think it is (no matter how right you are).
Robert
Former Tech Manager
CompUSA
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
...you should see what happens to the case when you install Windows ME on it!
There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
For this and other reason I replaced the HDD in my laptop with another one before installing Linux. If it breaks I can swap HDDs again and avoid giving my personal data to the manufacturer and can avoid risking my installation at the same time. Sure, they will probably know I did swap disks, since the original one only has seome hours of sue time on it, but can they do anything about it? I doubt it very much.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
So, why don't you bight the bullet and just make a backup of the disk to an external drive and then reinstall Vista from the DVDs that came with the computer. You can then reinstall Gentoo. It seems like less work than fighting the man.
I guess that's redundant...Linux User and Wasting Time.
Tha Sale of Goods Act is the answer to the story submitters problems. Even if the guarantee (which is a contract) does specify limitations that the submitter has transgressed the submitter still has their statutory rights.
It's reasonably self evident that if a hinge has cracked within 5 months then it wasn't as durable as one would reasonably expect and is therefore defective.
At the end of the day if the store doesn't come to the party it should be a rather easy victory in a small claims court.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Call in the MythBusters!!!
Since Linux is more functional and useful, the computer obviously received much more use with this OS than it would have with Vista. That warranty assumes that since Vista is installed, the computer won't be used much and thus, there's less likelihood that the case will break...
* Create a new partition, with the barest minimum of space Vista needs. (2-3 GB I believe, though I refuse to touch Vista with a ten foot pole. Also, I can't read fine print from ten feet away.)
* Set Vista as the default in the bootloader unless you hit a button and select Linux.
* Back up your data!
* Take it in, and ask a different PFY about it.
* If the salesrep even mentions Linux in any way, boot the system and show them the Suck ("Wow") of Vista.
* Enjoy your fixed laptop.
Windows has detected an undetectable error.
Modern desktop oriented distros actually have better out of the box support for hardware then XP. If I install Mint on my current PC, I'll have out of box support for ethernet, sound, and graphics. If I try XP, I'd have to download all drivers, be forced to restart up until the fifth reboot cycle.
622677120
When you bend someone over and service a guy like that, its gay.
Unless of course its a girl getting serviced, and thats then being anal.
or a girl servicing a guy, and that being strapped.
or a girl servicing a girl, which is awesome.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Backup the hard disk, put Vista on it and go back to the shop.
But that's too easy....
No sig today...
You should received a hard-copy warranty when you purchased the laptop so read over it very carefully (and even have it checked with a lawyer) to determine whether the software modifications will void the warranty. If this is 'not' in the warranty then there should be no grounds on that basis for not repairing the laptop. Otherwise if it is included in the warranty then there's not much you can do about it, except try and remove linux (backup or image it first) install the Windows back onto it through the recovery discs or whatever you use; then take it to get repaired; and if successful put your linux back on it again.
Do you really want to give them your pc to repair once you have destroyed them in court? Or are you looking for the cost of repair so you can take it elsewhere?
For those in the USA reading this, file this for future reference. I asked about this situation on Groklaw (in an Off Topic thread) and got the following answer within an hour. Quote: in the US, your warranty would be valid by mpoulton (689851) on Tuesday September 11, @10:21PM (#20565679) The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act is a US federal consumer protection law setting requirements for consumer product warranties. One key provision of the act is that a warranty cannot be voided by the use of "unapproved" or "aftermarket" parts, or by modification, unless it can be proven that the damage or failure was caused by that action. The legal burden of proof is on the manufacturer to demonstrate that the customer's actions caused the problem. The intent of this law was to prevent manufacturers from locking customers into using only their own consumables and replacement parts -- a practice that was popular at the time, with products ranging from vacuum cleaners (generic-brand bags void warranty) to cars (OEM replacements parts only, or the whole warranty is void). Many companies will still try to dishonor a warranty if a product has been modified, but this is clearly illegal and case law has upheld the consumer's right to modify products and use "unapproved" accessories and replacements time after time. Long story short -- in the US, you shove the laptop where the sun don't shine and threaten to sue (the American Way). In the UK? I don't know.
Where is it said that you have the right to mandate that a company fix your computer?
I realize this happened in the UK and laws are weir^H^H^H^Hdifferent there, but where do "rights" enter into this?
Is it written in the policies somewhere about changing the OS voiding a warranty? If so, I don't see how you have any case.
I'm not saying it's not dumb for them to refuse to fix it, because it is, but it bugs me when people bring "rights" into something like this (unless UK laws are truly bizarre and I'm just not aware of it).
Dell actually requests that you not send the hard drive. I believe they consider it a liability due to the potential for data loss in shipment, etc.
Do not send the hard drive. That's really the only decent solution. A linux install won't help them anyway.
Throw the bums out!
you are right, and deserve justice!
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/small/index.htm
Assuming you're in the US (And if you're not chances are your country has similar laws) check into the UCC (Universal commerce code) and the Magnusson moss act, I don't have my law book handy to quote relevant sections but warranty laws are pretty explicit and unless they properly disclaimed the warranty to you (which sounds like they didn't) You have a very strong case against them for breaking the warranty.
So... what if you gave it to them without a harddrive? would that void the warranty? Would they say that the lack of a harddrive caused the crack? Would they get you to sign an affidavit saying you were still using the pre-installed system?
I had a series of hardware problems when i first purchased an IBM branded Lenovo Thinkpad R60. I called support (that's IBM's support, not Lenovo's) who wanted me to do a series of diagnostics, but against my better judgement, i told them that i was using Linux, and couldn't do the specified diagnostics. To my great suprise, the technician said, "no problem, we have the software for Linux too." I wasn't all that thrilled with support as a whole, but at least they won't hassle you about Linux.
Throw a shit fit and push over some display cases. Preferably some ones with really expensive gear on them, or a plasma tv or two. Then tell the jury that you were temporarily insane due to being unreasonably provoked to rage over how the warranty on a hinge was voided due to some software you installed on your computer.
A halfway decent lawyer will get you off no problemo. Let us know how it goes ok?
From the Australian Consumer's Association:
- Keep all invoices, dockets and receipts -- you may not be entitled to a refund or replacement without proof of purchase. Also keep your software licence, hardware serial numbers plus make and model details in a safe place.
- Under consumer law, all products sold in Australia must be safe and fit for purpose. That is, if a printer or piece of software claims to be compatible with Windows XP, but fails to run on your XP system, you have the right to return the product to the retailer and get a refund. You can also negotiate other solutions such as a replacement or repair, if you wish.
- You're also entitled to a refund if the purchased product doesn't match the sample or description provided, or is defective (for example, it breaks down, doesn't work or develops a serious fault).
- You're not entitled to a refund if you change your mind about the product, know about a fault when you buy it, are unable to prove when and where you bought the product or damaged it through misuse.
- Although a product's written warranty may have expired, you may still have rights under its implied or statutory warranty. This means that all products sold in Australia must meet a basic level of quality and performance, bearing in mind its price, suitability for purpose, how long you've had it and how much you've used it. For example, you can expect a $600 personal digital assistant (PDA) to last longer than six months.
- If you feel you've received a poor level of service, you can file a complaint with the department of fair trading or consumer affairs in your state -- services, including support, are also covered under the Trade Practices and Fair Trading Acts. For example, you have the right to your money back or further repairs, if your problem isn't fixed properly or you don't receive adequate support.
For more information and advice on consumer rights and laws in your state or territory, contact your local consumer protection agency. You'll find that some departments, such as the Queensland Office of Fair Trading, also provide specific advice on buying a computer and computer problems. Contact details for individual offices can be found at www.consumersonline.gov.au.10001001111001110110011000011101110
The pre-installed OS is sometimes called the Microsoft "tax". Here's how you start your protest. Get some like minded friends together, then dress up as Indians, (actually make that Native Americans) and sneak into PC World in the middle of the night. Gather up all the copies of Microsoft Windows and throw them into the nearest harbor. That'll learn 'em. That's how we do it in Boston.
This post strikes me as being a classic case of cursing the darkness instead of lighting a candle.
Yes, their position on the OS invalidating your hardware warranty is silly and you are well justified to fight them tooth-and-nail over it...
BUT
Operating under the assumption that you really just want your laptop replaced why don't you image your current drive and then use the restore disk I KNOW your laptop came with to turn it back into a default load of Vista. Sum total it should all take you maybe an hour or so and then this crappy excuse they gave you simply goes away. Once they fix/replace it (which they now have no excuse not to) you just image it back and life is good without multiple months of stress.
Or maybe I'm just getting lazy as I age.
I had a similar experience with gateway computers. I was having a problem with vista sound, but the sound worked fine under linux.
I went to the customer support chat thing (while using vista) and talked to them about it.
The conversation went something like this:
"I'm having problems with sound in Vista, the sound works fine after I install knoppix"
connection died.
I tried again, this time avoiding linux until I got to the second teer help. As soon as I mentioned it works under Linux, the connection died again.
I think that a certain monopoly is using it's monopolistic muscles to make computer companies not support competing operations systems.
And everyone, please note, this is PC World, the store in the UK, not the magazine.
Email address: customer.services@pcworld.co.uk
Don't blame me -- I voted for Roslin.
You could just read the warranty itself to see if there is any mention of such a thing. If the policy ain't in the paperwork, then it really doesn't matter what the manager says.
Or you could just sue.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
I had a similar problem with a laptop (that I had installed Linux on) that had a unstable motherboard problem. I brought it to the computer store and told them that it was malfunctioning in the BIOS setup screen as well. We agreed they fixed the problem and tested it for 24 hours in the BIOS setup screen as they didn't support Linux. Everybody was happy :-)
See the subject line. Kept car dealers from escaping warranty repairs because a different part was used, or that maintenance was done elsewhere.
And I thought Windows BSOD's were bad for hardware!!!!I have always heard Linux is Powerful software, now it has been prov-en. I believe what they are trying to tell you is, their hardware is not strong enough to contain a Powerful software like Linux, quick revert it back to Windows before it explodes, or was that the batteries doing that....
Priceless!!!!
I know now to avoid PC World like the plague.
But I still need to know which make / model, it's unlikely to be a problem on just one machine. So do tell.
Why did you tell them you put Gentoo on it?
Go in again but don't turn the laptop on. How would they know which operating system was installed? Discharge the laptop completely or remove the battery so they don't "accidentally" turn it on.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Ahhh...PC World. Just last week I was in to purchase a throw away video card so I could install an OS onto a new build machine (the PCI-E graphics card kept hanging the install, but that's another story), and came across a "pre-owned" laptop some schmoo had purchased a month earlier, played with, lost the battery and cds for and was being sold for a very cheap price. Even with the cost of a replaced battery, was still a deal. After speaking to a sales guy (who let's face it, knew less about computers than some of the technphobes I work with)I was told that I would have to wait a bit as store policy said they had to image the disk so they could reset everything to factory standard. I told them straight up, I wasn't all that concerned about having Vista reset to factory standard as I was going to wipe everything when I got home and install Linux anyway. Oh well, we still have to do the back up and restore, company policy. An hour and a half later, I'm paying for my little splurge, and the sales guy is trying to flog me extra warranty cover...for a machine he knows I'm going to take home and "alter". It took me a good ten minutes to get him to stop trying. As if. In the end, screw the customer. It's all about how much they can make for how little effort.
Faith in Chaos
If he sent his laptop in for physical repairs, why did they need to turn it on?
A common practice is for call center workers to be rated on their call times. People who are able to turn over more phone calls in a shorter period of time make more money for the call center. Why? Because call centers are paid based on volume of calls, not duration of calls.
So, if the tech support guy can come up with any excuse to get you off the phone quickly, he's more apt to get a promotion and raise.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/09/20
Let's disentangle the issue here. First the screen crack obviously did not have anything to do with the OS. Second is it reasonable for a company to specify in their warantee that the OS shall be the installed OS and no-other than what they designate? I think there is a reasonable case for the latter.
On cars, the computers keep the engines from over reving or running on too rich a mixture, both of which can damage the hardware. If you mod the software in your engine's computers you void the warrantee.
These days CPUs control the heat and power management in a computer. They control many other hardware issues. For example I had a computer one time that would constantly go to sleep and wake up every 30 seconds. The hard disk was spun up and down every 30 seconds, the power supply shut on and off every 30 seconds and it would do this all night long every night. I never noticed that during the day of course cause it was awake. It ate several hard drives, a fan, and a motherboard. It may or may not have been a software problem-- more likely the PMMU--but something like that could be in the software. Likewise the fan speed is software controlled. Sometimes voltages are too.
While Linux is not designed to destroy a computer, one can't expect every manufacturer to be aware of every flavor of linux or to know if it has the proper drivers and regulations. Someone who runs gentoo is exactly the kind of tweaker who might just try to disable thermal performance limiters.
I dont' see why they can't limit the OS of the computer to certain specifications that they will warantee.
Of course this has nothing to do with the specific problem--the screen crack. But stores to stay in bussinesses have to have policies that are simple and clear. If the manager is not authorized to make exceptions--and he's probably not qualified to do so-- then it's your tough luck perhaps. It's what comes of shopping at a discount store I think. Big corporate policies and limiting customers.
One reason I swithched to macs is that there's only one company to deal with. the store, the maker, and software and the service department are the same company. There's no arguments they can make about whose responsible and they don't make you talk to bangalore to get help.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
As you are in the UK, your first port of call should be to your local trading standards office. Inform them of the problem and they will be able to advise you on whether your statutory rights have been breached and should be able to give you advice on how to proceed from there.
This is known to few people and resellers who might refuse to acknowledge it
The Directive applies to
The directive calls for a guarantee of at least 2 years for new goods (or longer if the Member State wishes) where the seller will undertake without extra charge to reimburse the price paid or to replace and/or repair consumer goods if they do not meet the specifications set out in the guarantee statement or relevant advertising.
The goods must
If a defect appears during the first six months following purchase the consumer will not have to prove the product was defective at the moment of delivery. The onus will be on the seller to prove the product was without defect. A consumer will have up to two months following the discovery of the fault to inform the seller. If a defect becomes apparent within the two, or one year, period depending on the type of goods, then the consumer has the right to choose a remedy using the following hierarchy. They can
- Demand repair or replacement within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience. (Free of charge repair refers to the necessary costs to bring the goods "back to conformity")
- If this is impossible, unproportionate or cannot be done within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenience then the consumer can demand a price reduction or can rescind the contract (though not if the defect is minor)
All these rights are free of charge to the customer.See also http://www.wak-tt.com/tt/2yearwarranty1.htm for a summary of the directive (the above is quoted from there).
My personal experience (with BT in this case) is that the various persons I had to talk to all referenced the companys warranty period of 1y to refuse me. I was finally forwarded to a last person who declared my router to be still under 1y guarantee (which it clearly wasn't - I was several months over, but still below 2y). My guess is that companies would rather not admit that they are really subject to this legislation.
You might need some patience - but the law is on your side. This is at least one good thing that the EU has done for us.
Do you think they would notice the hard drive was missing if I used my WindowsVistaLiveDVD?
Before you go bach to the store, remove the harddrive and tell the shop there is sensitive information on it.
I'm currently waiting for an answer to a formal letter I've sent to ACER wrt a similar problem where one of the two machines I purchased on the very same day don't start anymore and beeps at POST time (looks like CPU or memory problem), after ten months of perfect working in dual boot. Their brain dead tech support was only able to read her decisional flowchart instead of being able to just think. It basically went : Her : "I can't do anything for you until you reinstall the original Windows XP". Me "the original Windows XP is still installed on this machine, but the machine doesn't even boot, so how do you want me to reinstall Windows XP ?". Her "I can't do anything for you until you reinstall the original Windows XP". Me : "Please could you just think a bit about it ?". Her "I can't do anything for you until you reinstall the original Windows XP". Me : "Could I speak to your manager please ?". Her "Good bye!". Me "Could you give me your name again please ?". Her "Good bye!". Problem for her : I had her name already...
Still waiting (one week and running)...
It would be better for them to directly use robots : this wouldn't change anything for consumers, and would be better for their bottom line.
Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
Before you do ANYTHING else, file a formal complaint with Consumer Direct and get a reference number off them. Do this over the phone (020 8825 6888) so you can explain the problem - PC World is arguing something untenable as that could extend to "you installed Kaspersky anti-virus which is not a default loadset - your warranty is void".
However, if it cracked within 30 days and you bought this on credit you can be a real SOB and cancel the contract altogether. UK law allows you to change your mind on a consumer credit and requires the retailer to completely wind back the transaction (read: no charges or anything - as if nothing happened). They can refuse because of damage, but then it's up to them to prove it's your negligence that caused the damage and I would assume it's easy for you to demonstrate that isn't the case. If you want to follow that line, get EVERYTHING in writing from the moment you start this process because they will try and strech it beyond the 30 days and then tell you you're too late (but the point where you announced the cancellation counts - not when they feel like handling it). You will also encounter "the manager" who will explain to you that you have it wrong, and you can't have your money back but maybe they can give you a new one or one on a discount or an IOU, and they regretfuly have to charge a restocking charge - BS. You are entitled to 100% refund here - they WILL try this. If so, get his name and ask him to put this in writing there and then with a signature so you can ask Trading Standards - you'll find they'll back down at that point because they realise you know precisely what you're doing (I've been there with Dixons as well - they appear to all get the same training :-). AFAIK (IANAL, so check) this may also be the case for a Credit Card paid transaction as that fundamentally amounts to a 30 day credit and thus falls under the same rules.
Note that this doesn't work if you bought something at home from someone YOU invited, that's why people at shows like Ideal Home are so keen to sign you up for a home visit - they know you're then left defenseless against agressive sales tactics.
However, back to the topic. Formally complain to Consumer Direct, then go back to the shop and ask for the manager and give him the complaint reference number and ask him to put in writing his reasons for refusal. Stay calm - they guy will probably be a complete dipshit and try to get you angry as well to claim that you were rude and unwilling to resolve the problem (I know most tricks by now :-).
MAKE SURE YOU GET HIS NAME and then also ask for the address to write to, and the name of the managing director. They may not want to give that to you - when you update Consumer Direct you may want to mention that as well. Note that "PC World Ltd" is listed at Companies House as "application to strike off" (maybe because of name/ownership changes) so it's worth doing this asap - this stuff is usually tied to one legal entity, if it changes shape you may be left in the cold.
Lastly, go back to Consumer Direct and get their assistance in handling this, it's always best to update them anyway. I don't think it will get that far, actually, but you must be seen to be reasonable at all times. If you write any letters, write them from the perspective of a 3rd party reading them, that way it works better in court. Anyone with a clue will recognise that style and worry if it's not better to just sort out the problem, and such letters should always be sent to
Insert
Suggestion: set up a BIOS password to prevent the PC from booting up, then go to PC World again for them to repair the hardware problem. don't forget to sign the papers stating you want them to fix the hardware.
Yes, but he was resurrected 3 days later :)
That may be so for a US outfit (thans for reminding me not to buy from CompUSA ;-) - this is not so in the UK although shops will pretend that to be the case.
:-).
:-).
The laptop is classified as "electrical goods" and it's actually so that legally he may have more rights than the warranty allows (and that he knows of). The law in the UK knows something called "mechantable quality" (based on reasonable product life expectancy) - if I buy a washing machine and it fails in 18 months while I have a warranty for 12 the retailer will STILL be required to repair the thing (not replace, though).
As batteries only have a life expectancy of about 1 year you won't be able to use that for battery problems, but a laptop can reasonably be expected to function more than 2 years and can otherwise be deemed "not of mechantable quality", the retail of such goods breaks the UK sales of goods act (AFAIK, IANAL and it's been a while since I had to throw bricks like this around
Few consumers know just how many rights they have, and the lack of decent enforcement has created a retailer culture of "getting away with it". Knowledge is a fine thing
Insert
Here in Sweden, retailers are required by law to replace a defect consumer product within three years, if the consumer can prove the fault is original (like a manufacturing defect). This is called "reclamation".
This is NOT the same as "warranty". "Warranty" means the burden of proof is on the retailer, i.e. the retailer has to repair or replace the product if they can't prove the fault originated after the purchase. According to Swedish law, the retailer has to give at least six months warranty, but many give more.
People are often confused by this, and believe they have no rights left after the warranty expires. (Or that they have no rights beyond what the manufacturer's warranty statement claims.)
I don't know if "warranty" has the same meaning in the U.K., but Tikka's laptop is only 5 months old, and it sounds like she can prove there is a manufacturing or design flaw that causes the casing to crack, so it's not impossible she has a legal right to get a repair or replacement, regardless of what the warranty statement says. She might even convince HP's legal department of her rights, without having to go to court.
Have you ever wondered why the choice of retailer on the high street is becoming less and less ?
It is because of rules like this.
The retailer purchases from the manufacturer - this is covered under a business contract between the retailer and the manufacturer - consumer rights do not apply and trust me on this one, that agreement severely limits the circumstances under which the retailer can send goods back to the manfacturer.
The retailer has by law to offer 2 years warranty, thats two years warranty which he has to fund and for which he can NOT get any form of underwriting insurance.
He sells you a laptop for £1000, he makes about £50 on the laptop - I'm serious thats about all an independent retailer can make on them these days unless you have the buying power of Dixon Group. If said laptop goes faulty you can take it back to the retailer and demand a refund, if he just follows the rule of the law and does not put up a fight, he has to give you a replacement laptop.
Now this is where the retailer gets stuffed, he cannot send the laptop back so he has just made a loss of £2000 - why ? Because he is stuck with a damaged laptop that nobody wants and that the manufacturer will not replace and he has had to give you a new one at a cost to him of £1000.
The result of all these "consumer protection" laws is that the choice of the consumer is being eroded, give it a couple more years and there will only be big supermakets and Dixons group stores left on the high street, then they will be able to fully dictate price and service level and then (regardless of the law) you will have to fight them in court if you want anything replacing - can you really afford to take an electronics giant to court ?
This is why I dont sell to consumers, I only sell to business and that way I can do so under my own terms and conditions which are of course vetted by a contracts lawyer to ensure that in a B2B relationship they are perfectly reasonable and fair. In addition, I can insist that my customers deal direct with the manufacturer for warranty as is required by the contract between myself and the manufacturer, this way I dont have to get involved with faulty laptops and if the manufacturer gets awkward I can blame them and just sell the customer a laptop from a different supplier.
If there was margin in selling IT equipment then yeh I would not have a problem with handling the warranty but there is NO margin left, market competition has reduced the margin to practically nothing. The consumer laws are worthless if all they do is put retailers out of business because they sold faulty goods from a manufacturer who couldn't give a rats ass. Until the EU enforces these laws all the way up the food chain, they are useless.
Dear PC World,
Being a perceived computer 'expert', I have often sent people to PC World to buy a PC the easy way. Stories like this one on Slashdot (where PC World is refusing to repair a hardware problem on a laptop because a different OS has been installed) may cause me to revise my opinion and send people elsewhere. I will await the outcome of this story with interest.
Story link: http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/09/12/0011209.shtml
It is difficult to imagine though why anyone who reads slashdot would buy a laptop from PC World in the first place.
Here's another one: sales@pcworld.co.uk
IANAL
However.
You're in luck if you're a private customer, there's lots of protection for you when dealing with scummy retailers like PC World.
Have a look at the DTI website for the Sale of Goods Act There's lots of interesting stuff there and "Merchantable Quality" is your key phrase when going head-to-head with a bozo manager. Also have a chat with your local Citizens Advice Bureau - they can often make things much easier.
Slashdot always likes a motoring analogy, so this is MY take. Changing the operating system is like using a different brand of petrol, and that doesn't invalidate the warranty, even on a Kia! (nearest car equivalent to a laptop from PC World I could think of...)
Try Ben Popkin over at http://www.consumerist.com/
He is a wizard in dealing with issues like these.
Not certain if he operates in the UK though.
There is a simple answer to this: 1). Copy all your data onto an external device. 2). Perform a system restore on the laptop with the restore disks, (All laptops come with them). 3). Take it back to the store and they can't refuse you :) If they ask, "Have you installed any other OS", LIE! and say "NO".
The law in the UK says that any fault found within 6 months is automatically assumed to be due to a manufacturing or design fault. This is a statutory right and is on top of any warranty offered by the manufacturer or retailer.
Go back to PC World and state that you are using these rights and that if not you will involve the local Trading Standards Office.
-- BtB
This is the emergency holographic display hinge. Please state the nature of your display hinge emergency.
Nothing is inexplicable; only unexplained -Tom Baker, Doctor Who
Read the Trading standards advice for consumers. This advice is your statutory rights: conditions on the warranties do not apply. However, advice on general use may be taken into account. Read the advice for how that works.
Complain in writing, keeping copies of all correspondence. And complain quickly: for the first six months, the retailer has to prove it wasn't their fault.
Citizens' Advice Bureaux may also help.
First of all you have loads of rights under the Sale of Goods Act in the UK. As this is slashdot ignore the Americans who cite CompuUSA and the American laws as they actually don't apply here.
I've taken people to court in the UK a couple of time (IANAL) and won each time. This was always a small claims court (Kennington, London) rather than the big expensive one.
It's not difficult but you need to do things correctly.
1) Go back to PC World and state your claim again to them verbally. Ask to speak to the manager and state why you think you have a claim against them. Ignore the rubbish that they have nothing to do with the sale, they are the company who sold you the computer, they are the people you have a contract with.
2) Make readable notes, ask for names of appropriate staff. Be polite.
3) Tell them that you are not happy with this and will be taking further action. You can prepare in advance a latter stating that you think the goods are not of merchantible quality as defined by the Sales of Goods Act and you wish to receive a refund. You have the option of either a refund or a repair. If you accept a repair you cannot get your money back at a later stage, so go for the full refund. In the letter allow them a reasonable time to provide a refund, 14 days is acceptable, 24 hours is not. State that unless you get a full refund you will take them to court under the Sales of Good Act.
4) Go home, write your notes up, make it clear and concise.
5) Either PC World pay up, job done or they don't answer or they refuse. If they don't answer, send them a reminder and copy this to the chief executive of PC World, who appears to be John Clare. Don't get stroppy, don't get cocky. Explain the situation in simple to understand terms. This is later evidence you will give to the magistrate. He or she may not be IT literate so don't get too technical. They appreciate concise information.
6) PC World turn you down again. So you have to hit the small claims court. Go to your local court and ask for a small claims form. I forget the details but Google-is-your-friend. Fill out the information on the form. This is where you state your case and attach copies of your evidence, so all the careful notes you've made and the copies of letters you've sent help. You did send them registered through Royal Mail so you have proof of receipt didn't you? It costs about £35-40. I've not done this for a couple of years so am not up to date.
7) Wait.
8) Either PC World pay up, offer you something or they go to court. They cannot ignore this letter, it is now a matter of law and for them to do so means you win.
9) if they go to court, this is your big day. You do not need a laywer or barrister to represent yourself. The magistrate is the only person you need to convince and in my experience they were very friendly and helpful. They do not look down on you defending yourself. Explain your case to them, do not use technical terms, explain that the case has broken due to a design default and let the other side explain why loading Linux causes a hinge to break. keep it simple and clear. Dress smartly, but be confident of your case. Don't make jokes, make copious notes (or pretend to to keep yourself busy).
10) The magistrate will make a judgement there and then. If he/she says yes you're home and dry, if not then lifes a bitch and then you die. I've done three and won three.
11) if you win, PC World will pay up. If they don't you get the fantastic (and I mean that) of sending the bailiffs in. This means that you could probably get them to march into a store, section part of it off and say that this stock is now being held due to default of payment. This happened a few months ago in Tescos wher the bailiffs sectioned off the drink section and claimed it in default of a payment. £60,000 of booze held for a couple of thousand pounds fine. Tesco's paid on the spot. I know a few bailiffs and they are all nutters and hard cases and love this sort of grand standing.
Assuming that the cracking was due to durability issues rather than dropping the laptop, PC World do not have a leg to stand on.
In the UK (where the PC World in question is located), your statutory consumer rights will trump any nonsense that PC World may include in their 'warranty policy'.
It's really simple:
Section 14(2) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 imposes a statutory implied warranty that goods sold in the course of a business are of 'satisfactory quality'. This expressly includes issues of durability.
Section 6 of the Unfair Contract Terms Act states that when dealing with a consumer, liability arising from a breach of the s. 14 implied warranty cannot be excluded or restricted by reference to any contract term.
I'd suggest you put that in writing and ask the PC World manager to confirm within 7 days that it will comply with its statutory obligations and repair or replace the laptop noting that you will: (a) instruct your solicitor; and (b) take the matter up with the local Trading Standards office if the company does not respond.
Yes IAAL and yes I dislike PC World intensely for precisely this kind of crap. Give them hell from me.
"The sum of all knowledge does not imply the knowledge of all sums" Kurt Gödel (paraphrased)
Deleted
Asus G1S is the same - you can run XP on them but you have to find the drivers yourself and it's a real pain to install.
http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?id=20070731141139875&board_id=3&model=G1S&page=1&SLanguage=en-us
Because the XP doesn't have drivers included for the SATA chip, you either need to slipstream them into XP or use a USB floppy. It looks like you need to nuke the whole thing, repartition and install XP first and then Vista second too
http://www.pro-networks.org/forum/post-738142.html&sid=2379b1d8d49003d966b49652db3ee5d4
All of which looks like too much trouble to be worthwhile. And it's not clear if G1S is even supported on XP. Shame really, and I still need to test stuff on XP occasionally and my ancient XP laptop is falling apart.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Bzzzzzzt
Is the wrong answer.
In the UK *any* goods you buy, your contract is with the RETAILER, not the manufactuer, suplyer, sales droid or pimpley kid who sweeps the floor. You give your fscked goods back to the retailer and get them to sort it out. Any attempt for them to weesel out of this obligation is illegal and will be delt with swiftly by Trading Standards.
This law forces retailers to act responsably and not shift the blame. It gives consumers clear rights as to where they take poor quality goods and who they deal with without being fobbed off.
For what its worth, this looks like an open and shut case to me. The bloke had his laptop less than 6 months, Trading Standards WILL say they goods did not last a reasonable lifetime and were therfore not fit and should be fixed/replaced. This is a statutory right layed down in law and is regardless of any additional waranty offered by the manufacturer.
Sounds like the store manager is just being thick and our man hasnt spoken to his local Trading Standards.
Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
Don't believe what you read is the truth.
I agree with the above poster. There's two things I'd add.
Firstly, right now, the important thing is to keep a record of absolutely everything - dates/times of conversations, what was said, who you talked to etc. You'll need it.
Secondly, after you've exhausted the other options (writing to PC World, trading standards) then don't be afraid of using the small claims court. It's very easy: no lawyer is required, the fee is only £50 (which PC World will pay if you win) and the paperwork is minimal. I'd guess that in 99% of cases the company will pay up before it actually gets as far as court. In my case my old landlady returned our deposit (plus the £50) the day after I'd filed in court!
> The Parliament of the EU has issued a directive in 1999 - to be implemented by the member countries by 2002 (1999/44/EC, see
> http:////www.ugal.be/docs/en/pdf/docum/jol171-garant-e.pdf) that imposes high standard consumer protection laws on resellers.
I am glad someone mentions this. The directive gives excellent protection to the customer, and you can absolutely rely on it. (Incidentally, this bill also offers excellent protection for the retail outlet: they can get full compensation from the manufacturer. So PC world is being really stupid here.)
In fact, because the legal situation is so amazingly clear, you could probably sue PC world and ask for damages, legal fees, punishment, money back etc. Which is what I would do in your case: get the money back. If one hinge fails after 5 months, chances are that the other one is not much more reliable, and next time you may have to pay for the repair. Get the money, go to a different shop, and get a nice new notebook.
Good luck! Use the force!
It's also a good idea to start the conversation with "Do you have the authority to replace this item". If he answers "No", then follow up with "Please could I speak to someone who does have the authority".
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
I went to PC World Farnborough last week to get a new webcam. I was comparing a few and a helpful looking chap came up and asked if i wanted any help. I said I was just looking for a good webcam to run with Ubuntu Linux. He said he didn't know anything about Linux, asked me to spell Ubuntu, then went and had a chat with "The Tech Guys" (like Geek Squad in america) four of them went into a huddle, then came back to me. "None of our products work with Linux" was the verdict. I laughed and said that was ridiculous, most of them work with Linux just fine. He stuck to his guns and insisted that if it didn't say Linux on the box (and he was certain that nothing in the store did) then it wouldn't work with Linux. "We only have products for mainstream computers, you will have to go somewhere else." So I did. I did point out that Dell were pre-installing Linux and it really is a mainstream operating system now. I said that they would do well to figure out what does actually work and put stickers on the products worth buying. I am thinking of going to a different PC world every week and picking up a random product and asking "does it work with Linux?" If everyone did that they might get the message. Too many geeks research first and just buy what they know works. This doesn't help stores respond to our needs.
This is a manufacturing defect, may even be a design fault.
While it's true hardware can be damaged by software (imagine if the fan control was in software and the software didn't work), this is a pathetic case of the sort of rubbish you get from PC World.
I would never buy a PC from there. I did buy a Mac Mini and it was used.
SSIA.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
With the information you've given the community I doubt you could possibly get much better feedback than the nonsense so far. Cracks like that form typically from usual wear and tear. Unless you could find several instances(basically the manufacturer will need a percentage) of this exact same breakage, calling it a "manufacturer fault" is hardly accurate. Manufacturer's warranties typically state that they will ONLY cover "defects in craftsmanship." This means that you should be able to use your laptop on day 1 and have in perfect working condition. This guarantee typically will go over a whole year, yes, but basically you are getting a whole year saying it will work perfectly the first time you use it. Your laptop most likely DEVELOPED this crack as you used it. Whether or not Linux is installed on your computer is completely irrelevant, definately not defending the obviously moronic staff of "PC World." This story is one of many that basically all stem from a common misconception behind manufacturer warranties.
If you buy a laptop, get some sort of accidental damage from handling coverage.
Simple solution... go home, back up your harddrive (ghost it or something like that), re-install Windows Vista (shudders), return to store, get laptop fixed, and finally take a long hard piss on the face that PC Worlds manager for being such an incompetent fool
God knows how anyone gets any business done in the US!
The PC World problem is a problem in the UK. The UK has proper European customer legislation. None of the points made in your rant above apply.
Under this legislation, which is the standard in Europe:
1) The customer has a legal relationship with the store alone. THEY are responsible for providing him with a service. They CANNOT say that they are only selling boxes, and whatever problems occur are to do with the manufacturer.
2) No matter what a warranty may claim, ALL goods have to be 'fit for use' and 'of merchantable quality'. You can only get round this by advertising the goods as blemished in some way or 'sold as seen'. This implies that they must not fall apart after a short time.
3) If the customer thinks these conditions are breached, he can contact 'Trading Standards' who will investigate, sort and if necessary take to court for no cost to the customer.
Why don't the US have anything similar?
With the risk of showing my age, when you said "that's pretty gay" its something from "the bad hair day" 80's.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gay
3. often used to describe something stupid or unfortunate. originating from homophobia. quite preferable among many teenage males in order to buff up their "masculinity"
The part that says, "originating from homophobia" I think is a bit of stretch, though the first part is true.
Though these days I don't use the expression. I usually say, "that's pretty lame..."
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
You must be talking about an acer laptop. Probably one of the cheaper aspires, I'll wager. I've had the same thing happen to two of mine, and I'm not ever buying Acer again. Mine first developed the problem after barely a week. In that week, I had opened and closed the laptop maybe 5 times. Of course, I immediately contacted Comet. They did their best to ignore me. Several emails and phonecalls later, I was told to contact Acer, because they didn't seem to care.
So I contacted Acer, and they told me they wouldn't fix it for free, because apparently if your poor quality extremely crappy hinges break, it's your own damned fault...
Nope. No more Acer for me.
take the hdd out and say you can not let them see the contents of the drive dew to sensitive data. then if they say they need it to do the repair ask them for their security clearance level. of course you have to keep as straight of a face as possible and say i am serious. then just stare at them and they most likely will fix it if they state a clearance level then say thats not a level and say they can be arrested for falsifying security clearance levels. that or get a other hdd and install windows vista back on it and take it back into them or install XP for all i care. :) social engineering is amazing. of course you have to be dressed your best when you do this. (i did it to HP here in the states because they refused to repair my main board with out the HDD so it is essentially the same thing) also look over the waranty papers and see if it says anywhere about that. also there i do believe is a law in London that says prevents them from doing this. falls under the same law as cell phones locked to a carrier.
(yes i know i suck at spelling fell free to correct my grammar and/or spellin i dont care, im still not going to change
Probably mentioned many times before, you need to mention to the retailer:
The machine is not of satisfactory quality so not fit for the purpose it has been sold for.
The lid on a laptop is designed to be opened and closed but doing this has resulted in the lid cracking within 5 months of use on this laptop.
The Item should be replaced, repaired (by the manufacturer) or even a full refund given at the retailers discretion within the warranty period.
As it is a manufacturing problem you can even get it fixed outside of warranty (had same problem cracked lid 2 months out of warranty on a laptop)
See: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0043-1011.txt
UK trading is very pro consumer, in some cases too much.
to buy a DELL laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed...
I spent a few years in the UK: many tech vendors
are quite incompetent. I remember an old lady in charge
of DVD players at Dixons who did not know about region codes.
I guess this has to do with the low employement rate.
(But people are very nice, and I had a very good time there, I must say.)
more like: Jesus saves, and only takes half damage.
Actually, my crappy Acer AMD64 laptop overheated constantly (to the point of crashing out and shutting down) whenever I ran Fedora on it...
There is an EU directive pertaining to warranties. I'm not sure how it was implemented (or even if it was) in Britain, but here on the mainland I think most EU countries have adopted it. It's the Guarantees Directive (1999/44/EC).
The Directive lays down a common set of consumer rights valid no matter where in the European Union the goods are purchased. Central amongst these is that if goods are defective, or do not conform with the contract agreed at the time of purchase, consumers have a right of redress against the seller for two years after taking delivery of the goods. The consumer can request the goods be repaired, delivery of new goods, a price reduction on another purchase or a complete refund of their money. For six months after the delivery the burden of proof is on the seller - not the consumer - to prove that the goods sold conformed with the contract of sale and were not defective. The final seller who is responsible vis-à-vis the consumer, can - under circumstances determined by the Member States - hold the producer liable. Member States are allowed to have rules under their national law obliging consumers who wish to use their right of redress to inform the seller of any defect or lack of conformity in the goods within two months of them discovering it.
The directive also requires that commercial guarantees - such as manufacturers guarantees or retailers' guarantees - must be transparent and clearly drafted. When these guarantees are issued it must be indicated that they go beyond the legal rights of the consumer.
In short, the directive states that all sellers must warranty their products against manufacturing defects for two years. In the first 6 months, the burden of proof is on the seller. No ifs, ands, or buts. I suggest you find out what parts of the 1999/44/EC directive have been adopted by your country and then come into the center with a copy of the law in hand. You'd be surprised by how many people don't know this law even exists.
www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
...to repair a HARDWARE failure in such a manner would quickly find himself being dragged through the coals by the Trading Standards Office. I suggest you do the same.
On a parallel subject: what would PC World say if I bought a laptop from them and installed a printer driver on it, then took it back because the hinge was failing? Would they try and refuse because I had installed software unfamiliar to their so-called technicians?
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
Once I buy a laptop, I never deal with the store that I bought it from again, I phone the manufacturer, they are the people that are providing the warranty, PC World is not.
Phone Toshiba or IBM or whoever, give them the serial number and tell them about the problem. Tell them to send a tech onsite to fix it, or otherwise tell them if you have to send it off you will be removing the HDD to ensure they don't wipe it at the service centre.
Simple, easy answer. Toshiba, IBM and HP provide next business day onsite support for their business grade laptops, if you use it a lot, this is gold.
Berny
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
This is excellent advice, and I probably should have read it before posting pretty much the same thing. (Doh!)
One thing I want to add, though, is that a directive is not a law. Regulations are, but directives simply state an objective that member states must arrive at. It's up to the individual member states to decide how to do this.
I'm not sure of the most recent case in England, but as of January 6th, 2003:
The European Commission has sent 'Reasoned Opinions' to the governments of Belgium, France, Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom over their apparent failure to implement the Guarantees Directive (1999/44/EC). This Directive, adopted in May 1999 (see IP/99/332 ), sets out certain minimum legal rights for consumers buying goods in the EU. These include a right to return defective goods, or have them repaired or replaced, up to two years after delivery. Member States were obliged to implement the Directive by 1 January 2002. The eight Member States have yet to notify the Commission of the measures taken under their national law to implement the Directive. The sending of a 'Reason Opinion' is the second step in infringement proceedings under Article 226 of the EU Treaty. If the Member States concerned are not able to assure the Commission that the consumer rights set out in the Directive are in fact implemented under their national law the next step will be for the Commission to lodge cases against them with the European Court of Justice.
So in each country you need to see how the directive was applied. Judging by my (limited) knowledge of the EU, I figure 10 years is about right for a directive to be implemented globally in a manner satisfactory to the EU Commission.
www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
The "Goods and Services Act" will back you up as the goods have to be of reasonable quality, and a hinge that starts to snap within 5months of purchase is not of reasonable quality, plus their statement for the manufactured OS, this is untrue the laptop was manufactured without an OS, and they forced Vista on to you, as they gave you no option of what you wanted as a consumer. If the manager is not help full when told this of him the option of (i)Replacement as we all know that the hardware is not OS dependant for its quality. Also if he still keeps to the party line that it isnt the original OS you can argue that due to updates the the Vista installed would not be the one on the laptop now due to the update process as so their logic is not valid. (ii) If the manger is still being uncooperative ask them if they would like to to enact your statutory rights as a consumer and take the matter to the Office of Fair Trading (this tends to get peoples asses moving) also another incentive would be some bad press, "ask jack" in the Guardian is a well known Uk mass market tech column.
(iii) Remember that you are in the right, so have fun watching them squirm. My wife once bought a car that was a bummer, she took it back the next day to the dealership who wouldnt give her the car she had part exchanged. so she told them she would contact a local news paper. They called her bluff, so when the next prospective buyer car in she told them that they were cheats that wouldn't uphold the quality of their goods. The new customers walked straight out and didnt buy a thing, lets say my wife had her old car ready for her within minutes. Retailers dont like loosing money or bad press.
That's rubbish. I'd probably take an image of the drive, wipe the OS partition so they couldnt tell what operating system was on it, and take it back in with two complaints: 1. hinge is broken, 2. HD seems dead. They'll probably replace te HD too. You should probably take it into another PC world too?
So, this is the new way to get a system to at least emulate windows?
Good comment and very true.
... I found (without being able to link to it now) that the UK law is even better for the consumer, the warranty is actually 5 years (6 years in Scotland if I remember correctly). The only problem with this long lasting warranties is the fact that after a certain period the consumer has the burden of proof that the problem existed at delivery which he has not in the normal case. That reduces effectively the number of cases where you would want to go through the process of getting this warranty enforced.
I read through a lot of documentation on this at the time I wanted the new router from BT
In short: The UK does comply with enough of the directive to protect the consumer quite thoroughly.
Actually we don't. Costs are discretionary - it's entirely up to the Judge as to whether they're awarded and to which party they're awarded.
I used to work in the call centre for http://www.thetechguys.com/ who do PC World's, Dixons' and Curry's PC support. It was our job to arrange repairs and unfortunately you are not covered unless you purchased the extended warranty.
Without the extended warranty you are only covered by the manufacturers' warranty and they will only repair faults with the machine, e.g. CD drive failed. Any physical damage to the machine such as cracked hinges is counted as User Induced Damage and would not be repaired. If we booked a machine like that in for repair, the workshop would just send it right back(1) to the customer.
Unfortunately this is perfectly legal unless you can prove beyond doubt in a court of law that its a manufacturing problem. The company can point to thousands of laptops who never developed a fault so you are going to lose.
Your best option is to ring Coverplan who do the extended warranties for PC World [ 0870 600 1550 ] and see if they will sell you an extended warranty (but don't mention the damage). Quite often they will sell it to you months after the purchase. Wait until the paperwork comes through then ring the Tech Guys direct [ 0870 901 3000 ]. With an extended warranty they will book it in regardless of what has happened to the machine.
(1) Right Back - i.e. after its been sat in the workshop for a couple of weeks.
The simplest retailer is a mere box shifter. He buys a box, moves it to another room, and sells it on. This is capitalism at its most.. uh.. non-productive, and well suited to the faceless corporation. I'm not quite sure what kind of value you're providing that would make me want to buy from you. If you provide some sort of friendly service or guarantee or (useful) bundling or included checkups and then I'll be interested in buying from you rather than as close as possible to source.
I completely agree that the EU's primary purpose is to put down the small businessman in favour of the gigantic corporation (the EU is neither socialist nor capitalist, but corporatist). But in this case the overriding factor is that described in my first paragraph - and you describe as "market competition" - that if you want people to use you, and not Dixons, even while charging more than Dixons, you need to provide service. The nature of capitalism is such that, in an established market, you must either offer something cheaper or better; the EU merely (and intentionally, I would unhappily but confidently assert) makes this harder.
I'm happy to spend hundreds more with my end-user hat on (and thousands more with my business owner hat on - though you'd need to be well-established) with a retailer who employs people who know its products, can quickly identify problems, is keen to have me wandering in and chatting rather than leave as soon as they have made the sale, replaces parts in a couple of hours rather than a week, etc.
ok while i will agree they are talking CRAP and probably are getting paid off my M$ so fight them tooth and nail !
but you should of just not gone to PC world and provided your custom to some smaller computer shop that would probably of not even charged you the windows tax !
Bottom line if you don't want it don't buy it make a fuss right from the start that you don't want windows, then they can hardly complain later.
Just wondering, would all this happened if you had Vista installed? I mean, from what you said, from the time you said the word "Gentoo" or "Linux", things changed... So, if you went to the store, show of your Vista pre-installed laptop with all tipically average user stuff (cute wallpaper, most beautifull Aero theme, pirate copy of Office2007, and some spyware due to the click on the banner "Get free smiles"), I supose that the guy would smile and take the machine in? Is Linux that scary!? Most funny thing is that this happens everywhere... I live in Portugal, if you buy a computer in a big store and then take it back because of some problem, you got to calm de "pseudo-tech-guy" after he presses the power button because he won't see what he is used to, and becauase of that, your possibilities get limited (if it's a Windows OS, any Joe Sixpack can check for viruses or do a CheckDisk, update drivers, etc; On linux, forget it - at least it's good for my privacy!!!)
"No Strings Attached"
Maybe you should show them that line?
That's why you should always do backups.
flash mob
Go back into the store and tell the manager this: There is no legal means by which he can deny you your rights just because of the use to which you put this machine. Also, he needs to prove that you have abused or neglected it.
Write a letter giving him 14-days to make a fair offer. Put 'Letter Before Action' at the top, and make it clear that if you get no response you will, without further notice, initiate legal procedding against HIM and the store. If he refers you to the manufacturer then point out that you bought the machine off HIM. Send a copy to the head office of Dixons Stores Group, just for the record. You would be able to use the small claims court, who love this kind of thing (Heh!), and you can file online.
You'll find a load of advice, and templates for legally correct sh1tty letters at http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/ bless'em. Dixons Stores Group - Currys, Dixons and of course PCs 'R' Us - have a special section devoted to their interpretation of consumer law.
I fell foul of it myself, years ago, when a cordless phone stopped working after 13 months.... "Outside the Warranty, mate. You'd best contact Philips directly" quoth the manager. Knowing what I know now, I'd have pointed out that the warranty is simply the period during which the store will not contest the value based on the use you have already had, but since the goods were not sold as 'disposable' and I could reasonably assume that they should have a life in excess of one year, then the store retains partial liability. Under the circumstances I should have asked for, say, 75% of the value back or hit him with a Letter Before Action.
... if you have no intention of using it. Get your money back! http://fsfe.org/en/fellows/refund
Your best bet if they continue to refuse to repair the laptop is firstly to do what you are apparently already doing and going for maximum publicity (preferably involving national newspapers etc). Then contact the Office of Fair Trading and file a Small Claims Court claim at https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp .
Filing with Small Claims Court costs 30 quid but you will get that back when you win. Also, the hearing takes place at your local court and you don't need a solicitor.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
A warranty is as guarantee given given at the retailers option. However, all consumer products are required by law to satisfy demands that can reasonably be justified. For example, you buy a steam-iron that comes with a 6 month guarantee and it short-circuits after 6 months and a day. Wouldn't you feel like the iron was substandard anyways? At least here in sweden we have a "konsumentskyddslag" - consumer protection law with corresponding agency that you can contact in these events.
To sum it up: Don't point to the warranty, point to manufacturing error. Pursue it on legal terms regardless of the warranty and let us know how it turned out.
Don't put up with it. They sold you a product, it's failed. Get them to replace/repair and KNOW YOUR RIGHTS.
We've all missed the point that PCWorld are just continuing their crusade for justice. They obviously have a desire to follow their successes after getting Gary Glitter banged-up http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/517604.stm but their engineers aren't familiar enough with Linux to find the equiv of C:\My Pictures. Perhaps you should add a note: 'Hinge broken, login/password, holiday snaps here'.
Take the hard drive out all together and claim that you removed it because you are afraid that your data will be lost when they service the machine. Bring the laptop to another store and seek the repair.
If there is no other store; still remove the hard drive and have someone else bring it in for repair.
Assuming you brought it pretty recently, you can probably demand a refund as it's blatantly faulty. That's completely outside the scope of PC World's (why did you buy from them buy the way, always thought of them as overpriced) warranty. Back up your data, wipe the hard drive first. Kick up a fuss.
On the otherhand if you're trying to get this laptop repaired under PC World's warranty, I'm really not sure, but suspect you're stuck with whatever rules they have. Beating the system is fun though. I'd put a bios password on at boot and tell them the data is confidential and if they dare try to look at it I'll make sure it's public knowledge.
The warranty is irrelevant. If he's been sold a deficient product then he's probably entitled to a repair, refund or replacement as long as he has proof of purchase. His rights are laid out in the UK Sale of Goods Act 1979 amongst other things.
One of the very first things that I do is to replace the laptops HD with a new HD. Generally this is because the HD that comes with a laptop is not usually all that good.
Whenever I have had to send a laptop in for repair, I put the original HD back into the laptop and send/take it in to the repair center. The benefit is that my own personal data remains safe and secure in my hands. Additionally, with the original HD there is no issue with what I have installed (what they don't see, they don't ask about).
If I were you, I would go purchase a cheap HD and put it in the laptop. Then use the restore CDs that came with your laptop to put the system in a *factory default* state. Then take it back in for repair.
I have a laptop with large cracks on both sides of the LCD hinge and the first crack appeared within the first 60 days. I needed the laptop so I used Superglue which to me is more preferable than dealing with idiots. I never even booted Windows, booted straight into the Gentoo install and compiled a custom kernel without any power management. How could that possibly crack the monitor part of the hinge? (hint: the mainboard ACPI is still active).
Clearly the OS is irrelevant when it comes to manufacturing faults, to claim anything else is asking us to suspend disbelief.
Same here. I have an ASUS F3JP came with Vista preinstalled. Due to horrific performance, just yesterday I wiped it and installed XP.
Now it runs smooth but had driver and software issues with it. Drivers from Asus were very old so I had to dig in the drivers. Also, utilities from Asus made for XP (such as Power4Gear and OSD software) are much more uglier (they even don't look like Win32).
Now the whole system is more responsive, less resource hog and runs smoother. I miss the eyecandy though.
If you had a BIOS password the repair could have taken place and the OS would not have been able to have been determined.
I think you can use that as legal grounds.
What are they looking at the OS for anyway it is not there business.
There is a computer shop (upgrade/repairs/custom boxes) near me and I have heard that the owner says he will not honor his warranty if he finds any mp3 files on the hard drive. I guess this means that so far 100% of his customers are morons.
I won't go near this shop but if I did
I would 1) make him prove that the files are illegal by providing me a list of the songs that I did not already purchase a copyright for (in order to do this he would have to know my CD collection, which would be impossible for him to get). 2) demand an explanation of why he was browsing my files, 3) demand a list of every change he may have made, 4) at least threaten to sue him for privacy invasion. However on my computer he would have never been able to boot up the OS I would have given him exact instructions on what I want him to do. Any software or drivers that needed to be installed I would do myself. I'd ask him to provide me the software on CD then I wouldn't install it. I'd use the open source equivalent.
I doubt he knows how to use linux anyway.
If this was addressed to others in the US, it may have been useful, but it's very clearly aimed at the original poster who lives inthe UK.
Assuming that US law is pretty similar or similar enough is not helpful here. The manufacturers can say what the heck they like in the warranty, and this might play in the US, but it won't necessarily in the EU. You may know what you're talking about with respect to the US position, but your assumption that this can be applied anywhere in the world is simply wrong.
I've got a laptop which came from a plan BT had for workers to buy computers at (very) discounted rates. When the HD in it died/was dying (something which could be verified by the smart values on it) I rang them up and they insisted on me trying to reinstall XP because "linux isn't supported". I explained how that really wouldn't help and I knew what I was saying (I mean how can the OS explain HD access failures on several different OSs and liveCDs...
Anyway, they told me that I could get round this policy by re-installing XP (which wouldn't have worked (bad HD, no install) even if I did have the disk, which I didn't). or by ringing Toshiba directly and getting a "this really is broke - honest" code from them, then it could go through. I rang them up and talked (unhelpfully) to a woman in India for about half an hour until she just gave me the code (she kept saying "push F5 when it starts" and I had to keep repeating "it can't get to the boot loader, that button has no purpose before then"...)
Anyway, the code allowed them to accept it has a real fault no connected to the OS.
Mind you I might just be a twat to PC World after this - remember, they have physical shops with actual potential customers in there - if you are really loud about your problems with them they will cave to try and save any business that day. Also you could go for the legal route and just serve papers. They should have just given in, I was considering looking in there for a new PC, now I will not get one from them...
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
The same thing almost happened to me, But before i sent the laptop back in for services, i reformatted back to factory settings. But in anycase,
With the rise of linux users, plus the rise of Vista crashs and other issues. PC makers need to step back and rethink this. Linux is not going anywhere, and they need to realize that.
But here is a more interesting idea, that i doubt anyone has tested. Since Mac has switched to intel and we can now dual boot with windows. What would be PC makers say if we went and installed the Mac OS on our computers...
Well just point them here and make them see for themselves that the computer/geek society now think of their compagny, remind them that we are mostly sys admins and that we are the one that says yes/no when it is time to buy computers. Show them all those nice comment and how the people really think that they are idiots since they can't make a difference between hardware and software. Say to them, sorry guys you've been /.ed!
This is a load of crap, but not suprising. I was a Geek Squad Agent, and for a while we were told the same thing, if the OS had been replaced the warranty was voided. Thing is, I worked for Compaq and HP and I knew that if the issue was hardware that replacing the OS didn't matter. We told our store manager that this was BS and he said we could honor the warranty.
Now, if you are within the return period and you want to return the laptop, different story. Geek Squad is supposed to check a computer when it is being returned. If it doesn't have the original OS Best Buy won't necessarily take it back.
Of course if the issue is software, the mfg warranty doesn't cover it anyway, the only usual exception being an HDD issue.
So it isn't an "anti Linux" issue, it's just vendors using poor judgement. Obviously you don't have to even have a bootable unit to replace a hinge.Other hardware issues might be more difficult to diag since most repair facilities I know have primarily Windows diag tools, but that is a different discussion. This was just dumb.
Actually Vista runs quite well on the G1S once you get rid of all the Asus bloatware and Symantic anti virus - it doesn't seem to be slower than XP.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 any items supplied must be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. If the hinge is breaking as the result of a manufacturing or design defect it fails to meet these requirements as it is a) not fit for purpose and b) not of satisfactory quality.
These are your statutory rights as a consumer and you should go back, quote the Sale of Goods act and use phrases like "Small Claims Court", "Consumer Rights Program (BBC TV + Radio) and "Daily Mail" a lot. Make it clear that you will seek damages for all the time wasted travelling to and from his store and arguing the toss. He has no right to deny you a repair as Linux could not have contributed to the broken hinge and no contract between vendor and consumer can undermine the SOG act, hence the phrase "this contract does not affect your statutory rights" in nearly any contract worth it's salt so don't take any crap.
Failing that you could give him a kick in the nuts.
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
Why try to fight it? Unless your laptop has been "flagged" (did you bring it into the bathroom, George?) I'm sure you could go back a few weeks later and nobody would remember (or care).
body massage!
I don't get, and never have gotten, why one of the first things a manufacturer doing warranty work does isn't to pull your drive out and pop in a standard one. Boot the standard drive with diagnostics and repair any hardware issues. If the problem persists, the vendor can then connect the owner's drive to a diagnostic bench and know if the drive if physically intact. At this point, no customer data has been altered because at no time has the machine mounted the existing file system.
Both of these steps are simple and linear, they don't require great diagnostic skill or time. If the machine passes both tests, the manufacturer can contact the consumer and offer to either re-image the drive as it was when new for a small fee, attempt to repair the software configuration at a much much higher fee, or return the unit for the consumer to find a local specialist to recover the data.
As a standard practice, this would seem to me to limit repair time and cost, limit damage to consumer data when not necessary, and generally make more people happy more of the time.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
Say that you require complete satisfaction within 3 weeks, and that if the matter is not dealt with in 1 week you will need to hire a replacement laptop. State the likely cost.
Then add that unless the matter is resolved as above you will proceed immediately after the three weeks to the Small Claims Court, and that you will seek compensation for all the expenses as outlined, plus the cost of hire until the case is heard or a replacement laptop, whichever is less.
Finally, add that the matter has already had exposure on a website used by many people with equipment specifying and buying power, and that you will be reporting back on the outcome of your complaint.
PC World's corporate lawyers at £400/hour plus sending someone to the SCC plus bad publicity?
Pining for the fjords
Why would any self respecting geek work with the laptop closed in a docking station? That just reduces the number of screens you can have. Dell D series latitude port expanders and docks have two external monitor ports that can operate in parallel with the built in screen. The port replicators can run under $30 on ebay and are compatible across all generations of d-series latitudes. I worked for a place where every employee got a a dell d-series and an external monitor. Almost none of them realized they could have a dual head setup. They'd always come by and say "you can do that?"
I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but in the US if you payed for the system via credit card, you're entitled to quite a few additional rights along the lines of warranties and return policies.
Amex (and Visa IIRC), will resolve any sort of warranty dispute for up to one additional year after the original manufacturers warranty. They'll usually also extend the return policy up to 90 days.
If the retailer doesn't cooperate, go to the credit card company. You'll find that their word carries quite a bit of sway with the retailer.
I've only had to use this once, but when I did it worked like a charm. I bought some pre-manufactured custom-built building supplies that were built to the completely wrong dimensions. After repeated phone calls, the retailer eventually admitted that it was their error, but that because it was a custom product they still wouldn't take it back. After about three weeks, we called Visa, and in one (relatively brief) phone call, the issue was completely resolved.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Why didn't you remove the hard drive before returning the laptop for repairs?
A store cannot expect you to send in the hd because of the privacy (and business secrets) implications unless you're reporting a defective hd, of course.
A friend of mine ran into precisely the same problem with a Sony Viao - Sony refused to accept that the problem was anything other than Gentoo. Guess which maker he won't be buying from in future...
I think this will have already been said, but under UK law any goods found to be faulty within 6 months of purchase are assumed to have been faulty at the time of purchase and the retailer is obliged to offer to repair or replace them.
It doesn't matter if they could have specified the OS, unless they actually did specify it.
Ask the manager to show you the portion of the warranty that imposes this restriction, or the portion that gives him freedom to impose arbitrary restrictions after the sale.
Advice:
I guess your not from the UK, else you'd realise the size of the chain of their stores and sister stores. Though their site looks shit so I can understand your mistake :)
Here is an interesting question. What SPECIFICALLY is being claimed? If they say that the OS is NOT the same as the PRE-INSTALLED one, that means that they can potentially void the warranty if you format the hard drive and RE-INSTALL the OS from the disk that was given to you when you bought the computer! As it is now NOT the same as the PRE-INSTALLED one (complete with all the crappy adds they like to stick in there). How can they offer you a disk with the OS on it and not expect people to use to to 1) dual boot, 2) format and re-install ... 3) CHANGE OS's with the intention of possibly (or never) going back to the one that came with it... OR 4) Re-install windows if it was hit with a ton of viruses or a (i know.. it's windows .. it'll NEVER happen...) full system crash.
Again ... this is a nit-picky question, but depending on what they told you, it's fuel for the fire if you push a law suit!
At least, in Quebec, it would clearly illegal due to implied warranty in the Consumer Protection Law.
What's more, on a purely technical standpoint, software should not in any way cause any permanent physical damage. Of course, if the operating system is not supported, then it would be logical for the manufacturer to ask the customer to reinstall the original system or do it themselves as part of troubleshooting in order to ascertain the cause of the problem. But refusing repairs? Clearly out of line.
Part of my job is repairing Macintosh computers, and if you bring in a unit that has only Windows or Linux installed, I'm going to test the issue with an up-to-date MacOS X system from an external drive, this is fairly easy to do on a Mac. But the thing is, I would do the same tests if the system was running OS X in the first place anyway to make sure the system wasn't the cause of the issue. On a Windows machine, after some basic troubleshooting and making sure the trouble isn't clearly physical (like in this case), I would do a clean Windows install to rule out any problems with the operating system in any way. Data is never under warranty, and software problems are not usually covered by warranties.
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
I wouldn't buy anything from PC world. Their customer care on problems after buying is totally rubbish..
They'll do anything not to help once they've taken youre money WITHOUT you standing in the middle of store and making a scene.
The 6 month rule exists (retailer must prove their product was not faulty), and up to 6 years you can claim a manufacturing fault with the requisite proof (not hard to get in most cases).
Of course after 6 years you wouldn't get all your money back, only the portion you lost of the expected lifetime of the device (decided by small claims court usually)... but it's still worth claiming - small claims court is cheap and you can initiate an action online these days.
I purchased a new high end Vista PC from a well known mfg. My motherboard failed almost immediately and I wiped the drive prior to returning it for repairs to head off this kind of issue. I told them the drive got wiped while running a drive testing utility. No problem, you do have backups don't you?
The general perception is that 'consumers' are to stupid to know about such things so I played it to the fullest. Worked fine. New mobo and I are doing well these days.
I shouldn't have to do this and neither should you. Why must you purchase a new OS when upgrading your PC? Wasn't your old OS good enough for you? Couldn't you just transfer it to the new hardware?
Back up the HD, re-install the factory OS from the recovery CD. Return laptop for repair to clueless tech department, when it is fixed, put Linux back.
It is not worth the hassle trying to fight this. In the end you have no "rights", the company issuing the warranty can do anything they damn well please. You'd be better off just getting it fixed ASAP with as little hassle as possible.
BEWARE OF LINUX! It will melt your CDs, cause your fan to spin backwards, and your mouse will get scurvy. Friends don't let friends use Linux, and neither will a responsible vendor. There's a very good reason why Microsoft products are bundled with new computers- they are hardware friendly, and rich in vitamin C!
Professional Dilettante
I remember back in the 90s I bought a hard drive for a new system I was building and it developed bad sectors the first day. I called Maxtor's support number to get an RMA but was told that the problem was my fault because I installed MS Office. I politely informed the support person that installing software does not cause bad sectors. But she refused to give me an RMA.
During the conversation I finally remembered I didn't need the RMA because I had bought it locally and could simply take it back to the store and exchange it. I told her that then hung up on her.
I'd like to say that I've never bought a Maxtor drive again, but they're just so darned cheap!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Have you ever read a warranty or EULA? Almost any warranty given has a clause specifically denying any other warranty, express or implied. In addition, they generally require that any disputes be resolved through arbitration and not court.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I purchased a Fujitsu notebook some years back. After using it for two months, the CDR/DVD-ROM drive began to fail. The hardware was still under warranty, so I called Fujitsu service here in USA.
They said they could not simply send a new optical drive, but required I send the system in for service. Oh well I thought, yet another $30 wasted on shipping, but I agreed.
Before sending the system in for service, I removed the hard drive. I had configured Windows to my liking, and had a considerable amount of personal and business data I did not want to share or loose if they decided to "recover" the OS. I included a letter with the system stating the above concerns justifying my need to remove the drive.
Fujitsu returned the system with new optical drive installed, but unfortunately a nick on the LCD too, and never made an issue that I removed the hard drive.
So, my advice would be to remove the hard drive from the laptop. Return to the retailer for repair and say that you removed the hard drive because it stores sensitive business data which you are obligated to protect. So now, Linux is gone from the system not offending their lame-ass warranty. One caution, removing the hard drive may also void the warranty, but what choice is there at this point.
Dave
You either didn't read your warranty terms or knowingly voided it, yet you expect support? Are you a moron, or just a jackass? You expect sympathy because you're on a Linux fanboi site? You screwed yourself, now be mature and get over it, next time don't fuck up.
Take out the hard drive when you bring the laptop in for maintenance. Tell them that you cannot allow unauthorized personnel access to your hard drive for privacy reasons, so you took it out. They'll assume you're either a pedophile or a government worker. Up to you on which they infer...
Or install a bios password. They won't get past the bios password screen (they wouldn't clear it without permission and wouldn't need to to fix a hinge) and wouldn't see that the PC had linux.
On the other hand, I'd rather you kicked'm in the arse and had them change their FUD policy.
Go home, image your current disk, wipe it and reinstall Vista. Then take it back and have them fix the screen.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Computers are designed to run software. Software that the customer chooses, as long as that software is designed to run on that system.
A company voiding your hardware warranty because you chose to run software they didn't install would be like a car company voiding your warranty because you chose to drive to Toledo.
This space available.
Of course, being that I live in the U.S., and the store's in the U.K., I wouldn't buy anything from them anyway, but there you go.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
* Trading Standards.
* The Consumer Association.
* BBC's WatchDog.
* The Register.
Then make a charge back against your credit card on the grounds that they've refused to honor their statutory responsibilities under the Sale of Goods Act.
I remember once I was refused help from Dell because I had updated my version of DirectX. Thankfully, all that was required there was to hang up, call back, and get someone different.
"A coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one."
Everyone else has given you excellent advise on your rights, so I'd like to explore another option.
:-)
;-)
Accept it and make their lives hell.
Get it in writing that if your OS is changed, you void your warranty.
Then contact Trading Standards, with this evidence, and tell them that they give no such warning with their Windows Vista Upgrade display stand. Point out that it should be a large, clearly visible sign that makes it clear that purchasing a Vista Upgrade may invalidate your warranty on hardware bought at PC World.
Make sure you cc the letter to PC World's head office, and trade press. Make no issue of the fact that it's your right to the repair - simply highlight the policy that you encountered when trying to get a repair, and your concern for the preservation of the rights of others.
Microsoft's lawyers, consumer organisations and the trade press will do the rest for you.
However, I must admit I'd like a tape of that first conversation between PC World's management and Microsoft...
Hard Drives are easily** replaceable in the Macbook (and pretty sure on the MacBook Pro). It is also listed as a customer replacable component. The other advantage is you can slap the extra drive into an enclosure and boot from it and use it like an internal drive very easily. I haven't had that comfort with all laptops, even newer ones.
Most Dells also have hard drive cages (at least all of the ones 3 years ago did) and specifically Dell will tell you to take it out before shipping your laptop back for repairs.
Here's a tip, unless the hard drive is the problem, they don't need it for a repair.
** "easily" only if you have the proper torx screwdriver. It's a particularly small size that took me 2 home depots, 1 Walmart and 1 Lowe's before I found one of the right size.
Since you installed Linux you obviously were not using the Vista-certified Display Hinge driver. Serves you right, commie.
Firstly, posting this as AC to avoid any backlash. While at University, I work part time at the call centre for DSGi (owners of PC World & Currys), doing tech support and PCW customer services. You'll have little trouble getting the machine repaired, you have just gone the wrong way about it. What you need to do, is ring The Tech Guys on 0844 800 6020, use options 2, 5 and then the option for your manufacturer. Is your machine a Compaq machine? If so, it will be an instant process to get it booked for collection and repair, as a number of recent Compaq machines have had very poor hinges. If not, they'll ask you a couple of questions and then get it booked (Laptops are always collect and return repairs).
As for the the issues of voiding your warranty, technically you haven't, however you may have a lot of trouble getting repairs if you have future problems. Every laptop sold by PCW and Currys in the last two years has a recovery partition built into it, and unless you were attentive when installing Gentoo you probably removed it. If you have any HDD, RAM, Mobo etc. issues, our (DSGi) agreement with the manufacturers states that before we can do a repair on the machine we must confirm that the error is caused by a hardware issue. The easiest way of confirming this is to recover the machine back to factory settings and see what happens. Only in the cases that the issus is physically visible can we repair a machine without doing a recovery. Most manufacturers will say the same as well. No matter what you do with machine, you should always leave the recovery partition intact.
If you're unhappy with the service provided by the store, PCW customer services can be contacted on 0844 561 0000. Your concerns about the attitude of the store staff can be passed to out store liason/case management team. The member of store staff you spoke to was incorrect, you have not voided your warranty, however he was correct in stating that he could not book the machine for repair (that needs to be done by the customer in manufacturer's warranty), and that in general, we won't pick up a machine without the original operating system installed.
To the Sale of Goods act zealots in the comments, remember that the Sale of Goods act also covers retailers, and DSGi's repair policies (while not fantastic) have stood up in court on a number of occasions, including in instances like this, and such a big retailer, while doing everything to maximize profit, is not likely to start breaking the law. Stop quoting If a defect appears during the first six months following purchase the consumer will not have to prove the product was defective at the moment of delivery. The onus will be on the seller to prove the product was without defect. Seriously. We know that it wasn't faulty at the time of delivery, and don't plan to prove otherwise. We are obligated to prove that the fault was not caused by an inherant manufacturing defect if we are to refuse repair (which won't happen anyway).
I imagine the manager is protecting his fragile tech staff from having to do a final check on your system after the repair since they only know how to do final checks on Windows machines. And, clearly, to provide quality service to their customers, they must do a final check before returning your system to you. of course, he's a bloody idiot, but what do you expect from someone who's working his post, anyway?
I *like* this suggestion. Mainly because it will create such a stink it'll rumble on for weeks, spreading muck towards the vendor as well as MS.
Leaves me one question: what avoiding PC World and talking directly to the manufacturer? After all, THEY have to provide the warranty in the end..
Insert
If the hardware can be tortured by running Vista, the laptop will be capable to survive ano OS :o)
I'll look this one up, thanks.
Insert
Are we all sure that the request wasn't that the end user wanted to keep his linux install intact? If so, then I can understand that they will not accept a repair and still promise to return all data intact since they might just want to swap out systems. If the request was not to leave Linux intact, then they should honor the repair.
www.wildpad.com
An excellent site for consumer right and lots a great info on how to handle these situations
http://www.consumerist.com/
I would submit your story to this site as well, chances are the editor's will provide some really good feedback (and additional negative feedback for PC World).
No sig here...
because you're on the money trail now. Simply start publishing more about it across the net, and don't forget to always mention the full company's name, address, web site and board of directors. The more you spread it, the better. While doing that let your lawyer approach them with a prepared law suit. After they got nervous about the bad publicity, ask for a new laptop (the best they got) and US$ 50,000 if you retain from actually suing them. Offer them to publish the fine outcome (a new laptop was given - don't mention the money of course) at all the sites where your campaign was spread. Send me 10% if it works out fine. Deal. Greetings, Chris
"An operating system must operate."
...and send it back. Why they give a shit whether the thing even turns on is beyond me...it's a mechanical hardware failure totally unrelated to the operation of the machine.
The simple fix (though it will cost some money) is to obtain an identical hard drive for the laptop. Install it. Install Windows Vista from the restore disk. Take it to the repair shop who may or may not be able to fix the hinges. I have a quite a few laptops in my office right now that were abused by there former owners and have been returned to IT for repair or replacement. Most of which can not be repaired but must be replaced. Good Luck
Stunned and gratified. "A++++ manufacturer, would recommend" as they might say on eBay.
Step 1: Call the manufacturer and explain the issue. Omit the fact that you have Linux on the system. It's irrelevant to the fact that you have a physical component defect that needs to be repaired. Should they ask about the OS, LIE! Step 2: Create an image of your system, using Ghost or some other clone utility. All workorders, even when no work is being done on the HDD have a limitation of liability clause concerning lost data. All it takes is for a tech who has pulled the system apart to replace the part to accidentally put the hard drive on a disk eraser or large magnet. Step 3: Reload the original OS using the restore CD, or do a quick and dirty install of Vista. It'll only be on there long enough for you to receive your laptop back. Step 4: Bring it in for repair. Step 5: Call the manufacturer and ask them about how the warranty is affected by the install or update of an OS other than what was on the system. I'll bet they have no problem with it. Then explain to them the experience you had with their warranty service location. Step 6: Pick up your laptop and let the service provider know that you've filed a complaint with the manufacturer. Step 7: Re-load your backed up image to the system and enjoy! I've done this a few times. It seems to be a problem when the service facility has no knowledge of or confidence in touching a Linux installed system. Never has it had anything to do with "policy" or "warranty".
Ha, you think Microsoft attorneys will back that store up in case of law suits? :D
I am a consultant who uses Linux for my business. More specifically, I am a programmer who specializes in Linux migration of Legacy apps. My whole business is built on Linux, therefore I need to be able to run Linux on my laptop. I have been through 3 laptops in the last 3 months. The first one was a high end boutique computer manufacturer. The laptop worked great initially and I have to say that their tech support and sales people were great. They knew I was running Linux and agreed to cover any hardware as long as it was only a hardware issue. After a series of hardware failures stemming from a repair of a faulty LCD, the company and I Agreed to part ways. I then went to HP. I spoke to no less than 3 sales persons and 1 sales manager before I ordered my laptop and expressed my unhappiness with having Vista forced on me. They too knew my intention was to run Linux. It was not untill after the credit card transaction had gone through that the first HP rep informed me that changing the OS would result in a voided Warantee. I told him "I am a *Linux* programmer" and he informed me that even downgrading to XP would void the warrantee. I promptly canceled my transaction and went to my local Apple store and bought a Macbook Pro. Mac provides a tool called boot camp that allowed me to resize the mac partition leaving me with empty space for Gentoo. I had Linux installed before the notebook would have even been shipped from any other vendor. I must say so far I am very pleased with Linux on the mac.
Note: If you are worried about not having a right click button in Linux, the synaptics driver supports the 2finger touch as a right click.
Next time, don't pay.
Try this:
- Buy a bottle of champagne and store in the refrigerator
- Try buying from the same vendor a 2.5" laptop replacement drive
- Remove your hard drive and store in a cool, dry, safe place for later
- Install FRESH Windows Vista on the new drive using the same Vista license that came with the original computer (oh, what the heck -- install all the updates and security patches, too!)
- Re-attempt to get the "rule of clerk" asshats to repair the "fixed" broken laptop which should now meet their warranty standards (You may have to go to another branch of their store or deal with a new flunky in the shop)
- Regardless of repair, return the 2.5" laptop drive for a FULL refund (it just wasn't right for you)
- Reinstall your Gentoo Linux installed hard drive and celebrate by popping the cork on your chilled bottle of champagne (not near the newly repaired screen, please)
Fight the morons with their own shortsighted policies! (oh yeah, and enjoy a nice champagne buzz)
a couple of years ago.
I had a 3 year extended service contract on it and 2 months into it the keyboard failed.
I called HP and they said that since I had Linux on it they would void the contract.
Here is what I did.
1. Took them to small claims court.
2. Sued for the cost of the contract, cost of the machine, and cost of the repair.
3. Had the court order their records, contracts, and documents showing the "Voided" contract
4. With nothing in the EULA stating I had to stay with M$ I was able to prove an "Illegal Tie-In"
5. Then the fun started...
The Judge found in my favor.
Ordered HP to reimburse me for the machine, contract, and to repair the machine at their cost.
I made an image of the laptops hard drive and sent it to HP UPS paid by HP
3 weeks later I got it back.
They replaced the keyboard, and removed the M$ COA and reloaded the hard drive with XP.
Yes they made me out of license.
I went back to the judge and he made HP provide the work orders on the machine.
The order showed to replace the KB and the HD and to remove the COA
The judge then ordered a bench warrant for the arrest of the HP tech and manager for contempt of court.
They where notified by mail of the warrant and 2 weeks later I received a call from the court
They had a tech from HP that was going to meet me at the court to solve the issue.
I received a new COA
A new set of recovery disks
A second Hard drive with XP preloaded on it
He reloaded the backup image from my DVD's
then to the surprise of me handed me a box with a new laptop in it with no COA and no OS.
along with a check for the reimbursement of my expenses.
Last but not least, the judge issued an injunction against HP from doing this again.
Now the injunction is only good for my county but I figure that HP's screwup cost them at least 20K
in costs, and time
So, go after them and make them prove that your service contract is voided by changing the OS. And make them prove that Gentoo broke the hinge.
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
First of all I find it outrageous, but let's get to the point:
..... yes the manager too, he should have seen that the crack was heat induced, and that it would lead to your house burning down .....
OK, so was this in the Warranty ?
Yes: Make an image of your Linux install and save it. Put Vista on the machine, and make them prove you ever had anything else on it.
No: Sue them, post it all over, blog it out, or try an other repair center
Do not forget to put some over-voltage carefully on all possible ports, then shorting the battery while fully charged. Hey you could also do it in your car which you will set on fire, and sue the company, the laptop maker for all the damages
hit them with the sale of goods act. goods have to be satisfactory quality and fit for the purpose they were sold sold. You don't *need* a receipt either (though it does help quite a bit).
A PC world warranty is in addition to your statutory rights, not a replacement for. A laptop that is broken after 5months is not of satisfactory quality.
Ask store manager again, pointing out his duties under sale of goods act - do not listen if he tries to get you to take it up with manafacturer - the contract is between you and the store. Feel free to take notebook / dictaphone to recored his words.
if they refuse to repair or replace, write to the registered office, insisting on repair or replacement within 14 cal. days, send it recorded delivery. If no response, send another recorded letter headed "LETTER BEFORE ACTION" threatening legal action in cal 14 days if they do not repair or replace. Ideal person to send it to is company secretary.
if no reply, google "money claim online" for the online small claims track of the county courts (form N1 is the one you need). It'll cost you a few quid to serve the papers, but you will get it all back when you win at the County Court. Plus statutory interest at 8% pa (non-compounded) under the county courts act.
Also remember to claim for you time/costs - around £10/ hour is reasonable. They will almost certainly play ball on receipt of the court papers - it costs them far more to contest a case than it does to give you a new laptop. district judges are sympathetic to claimants in person dealing with large companies. As long as you have shown reasonable behaviour throught you will be just fine.
court process slightly different in Scotland (and NI?) but general principles the same.
It may seem like this is an overly agressive method, it will get you the result you want and is quite empowering to take on a multinational and win.
good luck.
echo $SIGNATURE
1. Backup your current Linux OS
2. Re-install Windows Vista
3. Return to PC World with your computer
4. Pick up fixed computer
5. Remove Windows Vista and re-install Linux
6. Surf for porn
Just remove the Hard Drive & take in the laptop for repairs!
Then when they ask why you removed the hard drive, just tell them you removed it for security reasons; you don't/can't let your data out of your site.
Then they have no idea what OS you're running & they have no means by which to refuse repairs. Bring in your original Vista Install CD if they need to be able to boot up something.
Done.
Oh! And this one time, at band camp...
Just reinstall Vista and send it back. If you're computer savvy enough to use Linux, I'm sure you can figure out how to put Vista back on it.
Even though the software has NOTHING to do with a hardware problem, like a broken hinge for the screen, the company cannot deviate from its policy. Why? Because of fucking lawyers and the public who believes they are entitled to millions of dollars when they get in trouble (despite it being because they were STUPID rather than the company being negligent).
Companies now have to ensure that their ass is covered and that they don't lose all their profits to these ridiculous lawsuits. How do they achieve that? By spelling out in great legaleese detail their policy and by FOLLOWING that policy to the letter. The slightest deviation of any kind can and will be exploited by a good lawyer.
Cry all you want but it is not the company's fault. Businesses didn't start doing this to be mean to its customers. They starting doing this because they got burnt by stupid lawsuits.
Jesus saves, everyone else pays full price.
Year-end 50%-off sale.
or a few others: Boxing day sale.
You know, money talks?
You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
I've found that many laptop retailers post technical and field service details on their web sites and don't bother to protect them because field techs and passwords don't mix. You just have to do a little digging.
The first week I had my Dell XPS M140 I had it completely apart and then put back together again with the assistance of those field service guides. It never hurts to get overly familiar with your machine, particularly a laptop.
When it came time to do things like upgrade RAM, tighten screen hinges, etc. I moved forward with no fear.
If you bought it on credit card, you will probably be covered by the credit card insurance - give them a ring - Visa/Mastercard/etc have a lot of clout when it comes to things like this.
Plus, using the Citizens Advice is a good idea - they will likely have had experience here.
The best way to combat this kind of stupidity is to contact someone at the local news media...
Here in Utah (USA) we have Channel 2 News and Bill Gephardt. He will investigate these kinds of things, get them out on the news...
The Companies turn around and usually change their mind, or it generates too much negative publicity...
Don't know what or who you have out there to help out...but I would try something like that.
--E--
I wonder if they would have fixed it if it had been purchased with Windows XP and then upgraded to Vista.
Besides, did they even need to turn it on to fix a hinge?
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
I make it my personal policy that if ever I take my laptop in, I pop out the hardrive first. I'm not aware of any hardware problem for which a fix can't be confirmed either through the post, bios or with a standard boot disk utility. A hardware repair/warranty shop has no business looking at my hardrive anyways.
Yours have 2 GBs of RAM, so that may be the reason you didn't feel much difference but with mine comes with 1 GB. I even installed Microsoft's non-released test patches that increases performance a bit.
With VS.NET 2003 and Eclipse running, system became very non-responsive and nearly unusable with Vista. Now with XP it's pretty smooth.
When dealing with these latter day blockhead Luddites, you have to accept them for what they are, 17th. century throwbacks. If you have a Windows restore CD, buy another HD and restore to it. In my case with an Acer laptop, I restored to a smaller HD and used the previous one for Linux until it died. I had a problem with the CD-RW BIOS detection returning garbage, so could not be used. The Acer supervisor to the guy I spoke with said that Linux writes to the BIOS and may have corrupted it. As I was about to tell the guy that his supervisor was talking out of the wrong oriface, it started working again. The problem was the seating that drive, since replaced it with a DVD-RW. For my Acer, I need a Windows HD in order to install BIOS updates.
They are so blacklisted... This is old news they are not into selling hardware they are into forcing software ideals.
We've seen similar issues in the past you are not alone.
Please note that it's illegal for them to void a hardware repair contract because of consumer's choice of software. I'd fight them hard to make a point of it but NEVER buy from them again.
A story told From a man so bold Of a computer bought This was his lot: "A faulty hinge Did my work infringe Since Linux used Repair was refused." What a tragic fate, This trial of late What can amend This silly trend?
Actually, I've tried this with Apple when repairing a screen-defect on my Macbook. Because I had financial data on the laptop, I didn't want to hand the hard drive over, figuring that it wasn't necessary to replace the screen anyway. Unfortunately, Applecare on the phone said that Apple would refuse to replace the screen if the hard-drive was removed. Furthermore, they said they needed my account name and password on the laptop. I resorted to making them another administrative account on the laptop with the username "Applecare" and encrypting my home directory.
This is almost the perfect test case. As far as I'm aware, tying one product to another is supposed to be illegal -- I.E. they can't force you to buy one product if you purchase another. Forcing you to not only buy but use Microsoft software to keep the warranty on your computer case is about as obvious a case as I can think of.
Sue their ass off and do not settle unless they promise, in writing, to provide full support for purchases without Windows and hardware support with alternate OSs -- and that it's their responsibility to prove that a problem is software (as opposed to hardware) related.
I doubt that we'll ever find a better case than this for separating Windows from the hardware.
The stupid thing about this is that it may ultimately result in an increase in their business if they get a reputation for being an early supporter of Open source, but it's often been said that "The legal system has nothing to do with justice." ...
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Don't shop any place where they actively look for reasons to refuse service.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
If a laptop physically breaks after 5 months without being mistreated, then it isn't a warranty issue - it's faulty goods.
No need to argue with them. Go home, write to them explaining the goods are faulty and that you want a repair / refund. Tell them you're sending a copy of the letter to trading standards (and do it). Send the letter by recorded delivery. Wait a week, then get the appropriate forms from the local courthouse to make a claim in the small claims court. Fill them out, and send a photocopy of them to the manager (again by recorded delivery) explaining that if you don't receive satisfaction within a week, you will be making a claim.
I've done this a number of times in various circumstances, and have never actually had to present the claim in court.
If you purchased the laptop with a credit card, you may be able to get the credit card company to help you. Contact your credit card issuer and tell them the situation. They have the power to simply reverse the charges in many situations, and that threat is often enough to force the retailer to do the repair work.
I had the same problem with a Compaq laptop... I sent it out to them with... I think Knoppix on it? This was years ago. It came back with XP Pro installed on it and a note saying we couldn't fix it with Knoppix installed so we re-imaged it for you free of charge! (like it was a service to me to save the hassle - I lost a LOT of stuff).
Back on topic though, if the contract that he signed with them states that he must retain the original OS - then there really isn't much he can do, is there? Just because you don't agree with the contract stipulations doesn't mean you can bitch and whine when you break the rules and someone says no. (Aside: I keep hearing stories about people with their pretty iphones wracking up huge international bills and bitching saying its not fair, then getting the entire bill paid off - that pisses me off too)
If I were to open a computer store, if the service contract you sign with me says "Must retain original or same Brand OS [if machine comes with OS 9 then OS X is fine, if it comes with Microsoft Vista then XP is fine, if it comes with Knoppix, then Gentoo is fine, etc] to be serviced at this location" then you can bet your sweet ass I'm gonna hold them to it when they come in for service at some point.
If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
Install nothing, just FDISK the thing and have them fix that too.
....Gentoo turned me into a newt!! (...I got better)
By all means, let's slow down our network by a factor of 10 or more. Throughput is limited to 150-180 mbps compared to 1000 mbps with standard gigabit ethernet. But that 180 mbps has to be shared also, while the gigabit is normally switched, allowing each connection the most possible bandwidth. While we're at it, lets buy new networking hardware for every one of our computers and waste IT's time to install it and the software. Nearly every computer motherboard made today has support for gigabit ethernet built in, and the ones that don't have 100mbps Ethernet which would still be faster than wireless. Also why not open up a huge security hole to let anyone in the building or parking lot have access to hacking our network? Normally the only hacking point for external people is the company's internet connection which has a firewall (I know, many attacks occur by employees). If someone can hack 802.11n, they'll have full access to our corporate network. Not only that, but they may gain the ability to read all of the packets flying around. At the very least we will be opened up to denial-of-service attacks and access-point spoofing. Someone on another floor could setup an access point that looks like a valid one in my company. If an employee has the ability to choose access points, they may connect to mine by mistake. Someone could also build a device to jam our access points.
You shouldn't be buying laptops that pre install Vista. There are dozens of vendors that'll sell you a Linux laptop now, and some of them have better features than ones bundled with Windows. In the future just buy a Linux pre-installed laptop, and don't worry so much. Dell, Lenvo, and System76 are popular brands. There are also some custom builders if you want a nice,portable OpenGL workstation.
I used to work on a lot of IBM laptops at my college and there was one model where one of the hinges was sitting directly on the CPU heatsink. This hinge failed at least once on almost every laptop the school had.
If linux isn't properly managing your CPU/heat it's possible that it would cause the hinge metal to soften and break when it otherwise wouldn't.
But realistically they're full of it and should repair your laptop.
Question everything
If you have a friend or anyone else you know with the Windows Vista install disks, back up your computer and then take off the Linux, install the crappy Windows Vista, get your laptop's hinge fixed under warranty and then take the laptop home and reinstall your Linux operating system. I know it's a pain in the a--, but this is the way you can beat The Man.
is to backup your linux and install windows temporarily, problem solved, sheeesh. awefull lot of discussion for something so simple
Use the privacy card. have them fix it anyways. As a former technician for one of those big US computer retail outlets it wasn't uncommon to see customers with privacy concerns. When a hardware failure can be confirmed without the OS there is no real need for the Hard Disk. I have serviced numerous notebooks and desktops which have had hard disks removed and was never once told to question it, unless no hardware problems were found. Most places will honor your request... and unless the notebook is not designed for easy removal of the disk drive should take you less then 20 min. Also 2nd options here are to purchase an additional disk (maybe larger capacity) and move your Linux install to that, restore the original to factory spec. And swap them out when you need service. Good luck with it!
Second, the indemnification is over-broad. If you cannot make any change to the OS, then you cannot download Windows Updates, you cannot install any software, you cannot add users, and if switching the machine on changes so much as a single registry value, you cannot do that either. Such clauses are illegal, and although companies like to tout "collective responsibility" (although not actually admitting responsibility for anything), a manager who is in full knowledge that they are carrying out an illegal instruction may not be protected against a private lawsuit or a targeted Government-initiated lawsuit.
Third, the company may have become liable not only for potential lost earnings by this individual, but for the potential lost earnings by ALL such individuals. A class-action suit is not impossible. It probably won't succeed at the final hurdle, but it doesn't need to. It merely needs to be reasonably proof against early dismissal. After that point, the cost in lawyer fees and bad publicity would vastly overwhelm any actual court-imposed sanction.
The first rule of dealing with dysfunctional individuals or dysfunctional corporations is always the same: the more they are exposed to view, examination and ridicule, the less able they are to retain the dysfunction. Build the pressure slowly but surely, until it overwhelms in an avalanche. This is not legal advice, it's not even clear if this is legal, but it's the only way an individual can produce the power needed to crush the problem once and for all. Oh, you also need to be largely free of having done any such things yourself.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Pop the hard drive out and send it in without ANY OS.
Why would you send a computer to get repair *with* your hard drive in it? You might as well just allow anonymous access via FTP using your main drive as the root. I've never sent a computer in for warranty work with a hard drive. I keep business documents on there. Financial data. Everything.
Quack, quack.
obviously; just put windows back on the thing. How are they gonna know? just put windows back on it, get the lappy fixed, and then replace gentoo.
One option is to remove the harddrive, take the unit back for repair, and if they ask about the missing harddrive, tell them that it contains sensitive business (or personal) information that cannot leave your possession. Frankly, it's none of their business anyway. Chances are, they will fix the hardware. If they discover the need to boot up in order to test the hinge...chuckle chuckle...then they probably have spare harddrives that they already use for testing purposes.
-Brandon
if point of sale information did not inform you that changing the OS would void the warranty, and I mean in 36-point type or larger at the display and on the box, sue.
use a small-claims type court if such exists over there on your side of the pond.
and let the newspaper "we FIGHT!! for our readers" line know about your case. I don't suppose the Beeb has the equivalent of the ratings fights our TV stations do in the US, where everybody has an "action eyewitless home-town team winner news tipline" and reporters who pretend to be expose reporters calling to say, "we're doing this story on channel 5 news about how your warranties should be hanging in the loo...."
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
is - as I did - to replace the hard drive of the laptop you got with something bigger and faster, and do your own installs there. Keep the old drive (with whatever OS it came with). if the problem develops, put the old drive back, make sure the problem is still there, then take your laptop (with the old drive inside) back to retailer.
I don't think US warranty laws are going to be of much help to him.
but you and I are not typical end users either. I can't say as I've ever sent a pc back to the manufacturer. I've never had a laptop fail while still in warranty, and after that I'd rather fix it myself. As far as desktops -- well, I haven't bought a pre-built one from a manufacturer in many years.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
I know that if you modify a card post purchase, a car manufacturer is obligated to still hold warranty on it, unless they can _prove_ that the modifications caused it. This would be easy in some engine cases, but harder with, say, upholstery issues at times. This should hold true in most circumstances, no?
I'd check the fine print on your warranty, but if it's like most, if you modify the base system in any way, it's invalid. It shouldn't be, because how the hell did Linux cause a crack to form on the comp. Most computer places wouldn't care and would fix it. I know at Best Buy they could care less. Do what others said. Make sure others see what kind of store PC World in England is. Ultimately, it's gonna cost them a lot more to refuse service.
It serves you right for all the years you terrorised people online you Godless freak.
Called any people up on their mobiles at 3am and played music to them recently?
Bluntly, they are talking rubbish.
_NO_ computer sold by PC World has a warranty that covers software. Sony don't, Toshiba don't, no manufacturer they stock does. Even with their additional fantabulous warranty that you pay on top for, this only entitles you to telephone support for software issues. They will not take in a machine to fix a software fault nor will they send an engineer to your home to fix a software fault.
To suggest, therefore, that you have voided your warranty by changing the software on the machine is wrong. Explain it to them this way, and you'll get a repair without having to quote any trading standards laws.
If all else fails, call the retail number (0844 561 0000 - not the tech support number) and dial through to complaints. Can't remember the options, perhaps 4 then 5. This will get you through to the customer service team who are generally very pleasant people considering they just get angry customers shouting at them all day. They should be able to sort you out. If they can't, ask it to be escalated. It can be escalated all the way up to the head of customer service. He's a very nice chap who always gets things sorted if the company has genuinely screwed up. Which they have in this case.
Best of luck!
An ex-PC World tech.
Here's an idea, tell them I have this problem with a cracked casing and I changed the OS from Vista to XP, is this an issue?
If the answer is no, then this is your golden egg. How can they say that changing from Vista to XP does not void and using Linux, which has nothing to do with "user mis-use" or "user neglect" or "hardware defects".
Have you ever read a warranty or EULA?
Why, yes. I have.
Almost any warranty given has a clause specifically denying any other warranty, express or implied.
Usually immediately followed by a statement in parenthesis saying that some (read "virtually all") jurisdictions require that some or all of these warranties can't be disclaimed. B-)
In addition, they generally require that any disputes be resolved through arbitration and not court.
Which is also something of which courts have taken a dim view. Especially if the warranty terms can't be viewed by (even: aren't prominently displayed to) the consumer before the purchasing decision is made. (Recently such a clause was explicitly struck down for a public communication utility.)
If I didn't get satisfaction from the manufacturer and felt like taking it to formal dispute resolution I'd start with the court and let the manufacturer decide whether to argue for moving it to arbitration (thus risking me arguing against it successfully and establishing a precedent voiding such clauses.)
On the advice of my attorney I always modify such clauses in employment contracts to "either party may elect to take disputes to binding arbitration, with the costs of arbitration borne by the party so electing". Arbitration is designed for settling disputes between corporations. The costs are high and the rules generally split them evenly regardless of the "winner" (if any), treating them as separate from the settlement. So in a big-pockets/small-pockets dispute over amounts well below a million dollars the small-pockets party will likely lose by playing, even if he gets a total "win" on the issues.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
The vendor can have whatever warranties and policies they see fit; they STILL need to fulfill their obligations under consumer law and will do so IF you hold them to these obligations.
Responses I have used at PC World go like this "Thats an interesting company policy that prevents you from fulfilling your obligations under consumer law"
Another tip (I've done but not at PC World) is to call up the local trading standards office while in the shop. Of course you will need to use directory service, so the shop manager will hear you and realise who you are calling. Make the phone call in a moderately loud voice, something like this:
"Is this trading standards?"
"I'm in PC world right now with a laptop that I bought 5 months ago that developed a cracked hinge. They say they won't repair it because some software I installed must have cracked it, do I have to accept this decision"
etc
Realise that as well as explaining to the trading standards officer, you are narrating the situation to every customer within earshot and making the company and policy look like a rotten scam.
After that, don't even look at the manager, but use directory services to get the phone number of the store head office.
Have the same style of conversation:
"I'm in your store right now... blah blah, cracked hinge, I called trading standards and they said blah blah but your manager refuses. Right now I have a bunch of customers listening to me with amazed looks on their faces. Do you want me to pass the phone to your manager or do you want me to call back Mx NAME at the trading standards office so he can tell me how to enforce the rights he says I have that PC world are ignoring?"
etc
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
I don't normally leave comments on slashdot(as evidenced by my lack of an account) but I decided to this time because I've come across this before working for PC World/DSG.
The store is absolutely wrong. Your warranty is for hardware only and has absolutely nothing to do with software(Something most customers don't understand which is why the PC Clinic at PC World may be quick to get rid of customers). If you tried to make this claim under PC World's extended warranty, Coverplan/PC Performance, then they may try to refuse as it would appear to be cosmetic damage which is not covered(You'd have to convince them that it will lead damage that will interfere with operation). However, under manufacturer's warranty it is unquestionably covered as it is breakdown. The problem you are coming up against is the ignorance of the manager and the PC World technician. Regardless of what the signs say, the techs at PC World don't have any real training(Not even A+) and most are fairly incompetent, knowing nothing of a world outside Windows. Managers at PC World generally have no computer knowledge(The same can be said for head office) and will usually act on the advice of the store's technician. The manager probably does not understand the difference between software and hardware.
If this is a HP laptop it may be someone at the HP call centre making this claim(They have to send laptops to the manufacturers for repairs). This would be because the person doesn't know what Linux is AND doesn't understand the warranty(It's not uncommon for the employee to misunderstand the warranty).
PC World is usually aggressive towards doing repairs/refunds on computers for customers unless they're convinced right away that the fault has nothing to do with the customer. This is because they are flooded with customers trying to request refunds without a valid reason or customers who demand that someone fix the software issue they caused right now.
Go back to the store and explain to them that the warranty is intended to cover hardware breakdown and has absolutely nothing to do with software. Trying to make such an exclusion or limitation of liability is illegal in the first place. If the manager still won't pursue the issue then request the branch manager. DO NOT take no for an answer. If that fails then ring DSG Customer Services:
PC World - 0844 561 0000
You can also try ringing someone in head office. The store should have a list of contact details for people in head office to escalate issues to. Typically head office will resolve the issue quickly. If not then go to small claims court and DSG will probably settle.
... SOGA said that the onus of proof within the six months is on the retailer to prove the fault was inherent.
If they can do that - and often cracks in the casing aren't inherent - then there is no entitlement to a repair.
Just like cracking the case by dropping the NB or slamming the hinges then claiming it's faulty and getting the retailer to fix it.
Their problem, if the goods actually are faulty and they have to fix it. Yours, if they're not, and you have to. That is life.
I TOLD you not to remove that little "Certified for Windows Vista" sticker!
It was a Compaq, right?
That little sticker holds much of the case together.
Now go out and find one of those big
"UBUNTU - LINUX FOR HUMAN PEOPLE" stickers, and apply it to the cracked case.
It's OK- no matter what flavour of Linux you're running, this sturdy sticker should do the trick.
Hey, three of those Ubuntu stickers are now holding my car's bumper on.
.
- aqk
F U
I think this has got to be the biggest load of bulldust I've ever heard. Since when did any company make decisions on repairing the hardware (especially something like the casing) based on what software is loaded on the computer?
I did that but now the collection company won't take my bins. I rang the company up and they said 'We don't have the facilities for Hazardous Waste'. What a load of crap?!
Also, the bin contacted the WGA servers (when they were up) and now Microsoft is taking me to court.
And to top it all, the hinge broke on the bin. Who's gonna pay for that?
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
Here is the answer:
Léa Gris
This wouldn't happen in the U.S. because the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act provides federal protection with respect to warranties, and severs the warranty from an item repaired out of warranty from any part not affected by the repaired area. From Wikipedia:Magnuson-Moss act was enacted by Congress in response to the widespread misuse by merchants of express warranties and disclaimers. So, for example, if you have an automobile and you have a non-manufacturer install a new air conditioner, this then voids your warranty on the air conditioner but does not void your warranty, for example, on the engine, the radio, or the transmission. Which is reasonable. So, it could be argued that replacing the operating system voids your (nonexistent) warranty on the operating system, but should not affect repair warranty on the hardware.
I would find it odd that the U.K. would have a warranty law which was less protective of customers than the U.S., and has been around since 1975. You may want to write or call one of your MPs and complain about that.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
It should be obvious, the laptop manufacturer fears that by having *nix installed, you'll actually be able to use the machine, thereby more quickly wearing out the hinges...
Sorry to hear about this idiotic policy of which you've run afoul. Here in the States we have some watchdog groups: A government entity called the Federal Trade Commission, a business entity called the Better Business Bureau, and others depending on the industry. Perhaps it is time to contact your analog of these groups (should they exist). Do it in writing. Nothing may come of it, but at least your complaint will be recorded, and you'll know that the manufacturer will get a nasty letter from the watchdog(s) as well as yourself.
Alternatively, if you're the litigious type, sue them, and make them explain in court how the operating system can possibly affect hardware which has no interaction with any code.
You could also use the most excellent SourceForge app CloneZilla to back up your laptop, restore the MS partition & try again with a different clerk (which would be a lot easier than re-loading 'doze with a dual-boot scenario, walking into the store with the MS partition running in standby so they can see it's still the original OS, then saying you need the hard drive while it's under repair). Long shot, but may work.
Good luck!