Hi,
Okay, I will not speak to European Space efforts because I have little experience (except trying to get technical details out of them of power usage and frequency allocations for packages they expected to fly on the GOES/POES satellites I was designing) perhaps they are doing something interesting with the accounting.
I am betting that they are including the entire cost of the ground infrastructure in the cost per satellite, not in the launch cost, in order to try to keep launch costs down and thus attract foreign business... With the heavily socialized governments in Europe you have to be very watchful about how they do their accounting.
You quote MoD satellites as if that is an average cost? That is a mistake. Any defense project has packages on the satellite that are black, I am willing to bet my right testicle that those same satellites if launched strictly for communications and not for the MoD would cost one tenth of their current cost.
I could tell you stories about stuff we have found on other countries 'weather' satellites or 'communications' satellites that would make you laugh...
My old Boss who had been in GOES/POES since the late 60's used to always tell me that even back then satellites were about 5% - 10% of launch costs and that it had stayed the same... Of course, as I disallow any knowledge of costs in Europe, I having only worked on these programs in the USA, I also must disallow any knowledge of Chinese, Japanese, and Russian launch costs. I am betting they all advertise figures based upon the desire to get business and the level of governmental support rather than on what the actual costs are.
However. I have been an engineer working/designing GOES/POES satellites at MIT's Lincoln Labs. No offense intended but, what are your credentials?
Hmmm Weather satellites are very much "all in one" devices. Carrying many different types of equipment to measure everything from water vapor density at each altitude level, down to wave heights of the oceans, as well as detectors for search and rescue ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Position-Indicating_Radio_Beacon ) for example... As well as (in some cases) carrying equipments for the European Union.
NASA and NOAA have almost always been happy to carry instrument packages for any paying customer, presuming of course, that customer pays their own way proportionately to their usage. This is why NOAA GOES and POES satellites frequently carry European payloads. Of course, sometimes the Europeans want to be able to independently control the entire satellite, in that case, it is best for their needs for them to put up their own satellite, thus they can task it freely.
Concerning COTS equipments, LEO is just about the only place you can get any of the COTS stuff to live, a family of orbits getting very congested. Orbiting at altitudes where they even graze the Van Allen Belts raises the possibility of failure to a level where the cost of launch becomes prohibitive when compared to the risk of failure, thus interested parties become less willing to launch. Comparatively speaking, the price of a satellite is usually something like 95% launch costs, 5% satellite design and build costs.
Just some things of which you may not have been aware.
Let's see, repressive, socialist government with a penchant for imprisoning anyone who disagrees with "the official party line", currently censoring the internet to reflect to their citizens some socialist fantasy view of the world, and you expected them to deal honorably with you?
Well, I guess some companies are run by morons because no matter how bleeding heart liberal you are, you should remember Tiananmen Square. That really did happen and it wasn't in some fantasy either, real people died and were imprisoned over a peaceful demonstration asking for (what most of the free world sees as) basic human rights.
Perhaps, I served in the United States Army, my IQ is 149, I am a member of Mensa. I am now a physicist, I used the GI Bill to get my University education. I was an enlisted soldier in the 10th Mountain Division, and while I got put out for ruining my knees as a soldier, I would go back again right now.
I guess every country treats their soldiers differently. I know in my country it goes back and forth how we treat our soldiers, after Vietnam there was a huge backlash against those that denigrated them. Many people from backgrounds of money seem to think that soldiers are inferior in some way, but then again, many go into the service any way. Honor, Commitment to a cause bigger than yourself, Duty, these are laudable characteristics for any citizen who takes personal responsibility for not only themselves but their country.
Britt...
Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most.
That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything;
that power and money, money and power mean nothing;
that good always triumphs over evil;
and I want you to remember this, that love...true love...never dies.
You remember that, boy. You remember that.
Doesn't matter if it's true or not.
You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in
I was in the 10th Mountain, our officers were the real deal, sure some were ring knockers but most were what they call Mavericks in the Navy. Nothing like what you describe. If I wasn't fucked in the knees and too old, I would go back in in a heartbeat just to take the place of some young 18 year old so they wouldn't have to go.
Call me what you will.
It must be nice to sit back on your ass and judge others while being completely unwilling to defend the very freedoms that make your complaints possible (with getting sent to some gulag)
I wouldn't brag about the level of cowardice/complacency that lead you to not be willing to fight for your country, regardless of which country it is mate.
Or did you mean that comment as Patton meant when he said he didn't want soldiers to die for their country, he wanted them to make the enemy die for theirs? (my paraphrase)
An ex-Soldier.
Interesting comment about AI...
I would suggest that one problem with AI is coming up with a workable definition of intelligence... Do we actually have one that everyone agrees upon?
The second problem is in the nature of intelligence, how did it arise in animals/humans? Do we understand this process?
If we had these two pieces of the puzzle perhaps AI would be much simpler, but I believe (and hope one of my learned brethren here on Slashdot can answer this for me) that we do not have the answer to either of the two questions I pose, at least not one that is universally accepted.
He says this stuff all the time and it always makes front page here at Slashdot.
I strongly suggest that we consider him to be what he is, an idiot, and ignore him and hope he dries up and blows away.
Consider his track record of things that wouldn't work/last/sell and you will see that he is completely out of touch and merely a blowhard selling more newspapers.
Here here, I believe we should mod this up! I mean, come on, get off the stupid dime, what system you measure in is meaningless, the measurement is the thing and of course, people being smart enough to know to convert...
BTW, ever been to the fucking UK? You buy a Pint of beer, but a liter of gas, your roads are marked in MPH, as are your speedometers... Hell it is competely bastardized, you want to complain about something, complain about their non-self-consistent measurements. I could give a rats ass what the system is, learn it, learn the conversions, and then you can go anywhere and be understood.
Now I will go take my medicine and calm down... Heading out for a pint, anyone coming?
Slashdot Mirror
Thank you for the extra data, as I haven't worked in that field in a while it is a good thing to be brought more up to date.
I am betting that they are including the entire cost of the ground infrastructure in the cost per satellite, not in the launch cost, in order to try to keep launch costs down and thus attract foreign business... With the heavily socialized governments in Europe you have to be very watchful about how they do their accounting.
You quote MoD satellites as if that is an average cost? That is a mistake. Any defense project has packages on the satellite that are black, I am willing to bet my right testicle that those same satellites if launched strictly for communications and not for the MoD would cost one tenth of their current cost.
I could tell you stories about stuff we have found on other countries 'weather' satellites or 'communications' satellites that would make you laugh...
My old Boss who had been in GOES/POES since the late 60's used to always tell me that even back then satellites were about 5% - 10% of launch costs and that it had stayed the same ... Of course, as I disallow any knowledge of costs in Europe, I having only worked on these programs in the USA, I also must disallow any knowledge of Chinese, Japanese, and Russian launch costs. I am betting they all advertise figures based upon the desire to get business and the level of governmental support rather than on what the actual costs are.
However. I have been an engineer working/designing GOES/POES satellites at MIT's Lincoln Labs. No offense intended but, what are your credentials?
NASA and NOAA have almost always been happy to carry instrument packages for any paying customer, presuming of course, that customer pays their own way proportionately to their usage. This is why NOAA GOES and POES satellites frequently carry European payloads. Of course, sometimes the Europeans want to be able to independently control the entire satellite, in that case, it is best for their needs for them to put up their own satellite, thus they can task it freely.
Concerning COTS equipments, LEO is just about the only place you can get any of the COTS stuff to live, a family of orbits getting very congested. Orbiting at altitudes where they even graze the Van Allen Belts raises the possibility of failure to a level where the cost of launch becomes prohibitive when compared to the risk of failure, thus interested parties become less willing to launch. Comparatively speaking, the price of a satellite is usually something like 95% launch costs, 5% satellite design and build costs .
Just some things of which you may not have been aware.
Jack.
Well, I guess some companies are run by morons because no matter how bleeding heart liberal you are, you should remember Tiananmen Square. That really did happen and it wasn't in some fantasy either, real people died and were imprisoned over a peaceful demonstration asking for (what most of the free world sees as) basic human rights.
Just a thought.
Perhaps, I served in the United States Army, my IQ is 149, I am a member of Mensa. I am now a physicist, I used the GI Bill to get my University education. I was an enlisted soldier in the 10th Mountain Division, and while I got put out for ruining my knees as a soldier, I would go back again right now. I guess every country treats their soldiers differently. I know in my country it goes back and forth how we treat our soldiers, after Vietnam there was a huge backlash against those that denigrated them. Many people from backgrounds of money seem to think that soldiers are inferior in some way, but then again, many go into the service any way. Honor, Commitment to a cause bigger than yourself, Duty, these are laudable characteristics for any citizen who takes personal responsibility for not only themselves but their country. Britt... Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love...true love...never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in
I was in the 10th Mountain, our officers were the real deal, sure some were ring knockers but most were what they call Mavericks in the Navy. Nothing like what you describe. If I wasn't fucked in the knees and too old, I would go back in in a heartbeat just to take the place of some young 18 year old so they wouldn't have to go. Call me what you will.
It must be nice to sit back on your ass and judge others while being completely unwilling to defend the very freedoms that make your complaints possible (with getting sent to some gulag) I wouldn't brag about the level of cowardice/complacency that lead you to not be willing to fight for your country, regardless of which country it is mate. Or did you mean that comment as Patton meant when he said he didn't want soldiers to die for their country, he wanted them to make the enemy die for theirs? (my paraphrase) An ex-Soldier.
The second problem is in the nature of intelligence, how did it arise in animals/humans? Do we understand this process?
If we had these two pieces of the puzzle perhaps AI would be much simpler, but I believe (and hope one of my learned brethren here on Slashdot can answer this for me) that we do not have the answer to either of the two questions I pose, at least not one that is universally accepted.
Respectfully submitted,
Jack_of_Shadow
Dvorak is a moron.
He says this stuff all the time and it always makes front page here at Slashdot.
I strongly suggest that we consider him to be what he is, an idiot, and ignore him and hope he dries up and blows away.
Consider his track record of things that wouldn't work/last/sell and you will see that he is completely out of touch and merely a blowhard selling more newspapers.
Respectfully submitted
Jack of Shadow
Hear hear, if more people had this level of logical ability the United States would be a better place. Thank you for the insightful comment.
Here here, I believe we should mod this up! I mean, come on, get off the stupid dime, what system you measure in is meaningless, the measurement is the thing and of course, people being smart enough to know to convert... BTW, ever been to the fucking UK? You buy a Pint of beer, but a liter of gas, your roads are marked in MPH, as are your speedometers... Hell it is competely bastardized, you want to complain about something, complain about their non-self-consistent measurements. I could give a rats ass what the system is, learn it, learn the conversions, and then you can go anywhere and be understood. Now I will go take my medicine and calm down... Heading out for a pint, anyone coming?