Finally! For links, you can find a ton of positive attributes of a diverse society by googling "diversity leads to", but to be more direct:
Being exposed to different cultures can cause conflict, but it can also cause reflection. In a truly diverse society, where diverse members of the society are treated as peers, people are accountable for the way they relate to members of the community who are not of the same group. Accountability is a powerful equalizer. The cases where "diversity" is represented as conflict, it's absolutely not the case that the non-dominant members are peers.
I would caution that it's inappropriate to treat as "diversity" a scenario where a dominant group is intermixed with a subject group for their exploitation. Otherwise, the Antebellum South of the US was among the most diverse societies in history. I don't think anyone would ever claim this.
There'd be no rape, robbery, or violence. People would keep to themselves like social shut-ins tend to do. Sounds fantastic.
People attack each other, shout slurs and publicly express wishes of others' death. Slashdot is overflowing with hostility and it's barely possible to have a coherent discussion. I can't think of another corner of the Internet where people hurl "nigger" or "fag" at each other more. I can think of few places so quick to ignore arguments and resort to generalized attacks about any perceived identity. Don't take this the wrong way, but this is one of the worst places on the Internet.
So basically, anyone who complains about how things are has to defend everything said or done by anyone else who also complains about how things are. The same standard is obviously not applied to people who defend how things are. COOL.
i think you are looking at what i write to you as im the enemy and therefore what I say is bull.
Nope. Just reading the words you post and responding as if you mean them.
i did no such thing, you accused me of living in fear and other junk and i simply was making an argument based on my experiences
But you did.
Setting up straw man and tearing it down:
there is no fear on my side, but we do see the idea of diversity differently. I dont believe there is a need for it. I enjoy it, i like learning about other cultures and being a part of them. However I disagree that it is something that should be forced onto people (not saying that you feel that way just explaining myself)
Admitting the straw man is not my view:
there is no fear on my side, but we do see the idea of diversity differently. I dont believe there is a need for it. I enjoy it, i like learning about other cultures and being a part of them. However I disagree that it is something that should be forced onto people (not saying that you feel that way just explaining myself)
I made up nothing.
You told me that someone was charged with a hate crime for not baking a cake.
see, this is the problem. I am sitting here not insulting you, trying to understand your side while offering my side of things.
No you're not. If you can't understand that, this is not going to be productive.
yet your side seems unable to do so without resorting to smugness.
I asked you to defend any of your outlandish claims with evidence, and you continued posting more outlandish claims and refused to provide any evidence. I'm not being smug, I'm being efficient with my use of Internet Debate Time.
What I said was in simple terms, "dont hurt people for...reasons" I dont care black white gay straight, you shouldnt be attacking someone for no reason.
I'm not attacking anyone at all. I came in here to defend.
As for the baker, you didnt hear about the baker being forced to pay over 100 grand to a lesbian couple because they refused to bake them a custom cake???? google is your friend, and for someone who is caught up on LGBTQDFHSDTHUA++ you should be well aware of that case
1. I'm aware of a number of contrived cases about "cakes". Please specify one, with a link to something anything. Your claim was not that someone was sued, but that someone was charged with a hate crime. This might be news to you, but some things are not the same as other things. 2. LGBTQDFHSDTHUA++ - Oh yeah, you don't want people to attack each other. You just literally mashed your keyboard because you couldn't be bothered to understand what the acronym is that represents several sub-sections of society whose concerns you can't stop taking time out of your day to dismiss. The amount of defensive disdain is palpable.
Look, do you want to have an honest, compassionate discussion about things you are actually self-aware enough to admit you don't understand? Stop acting like you're an equal in that discussion. I am not an authority on queer issues in Seattle, but I'm a queer in Seattle. I have more experience than you do as a not-queer in not-Seattle. If you want to understand my "side" of a discussion, stop putting straw men in front of me that queers are getting innocent bigots charged with hate crimes over cakes. It's not real, it's not true, it's a caricature, it's insulting, and it's not in the spirit of honest discussion.
there is no fear on my side, but we do see the idea of diversity differently. I dont believe there is a need for it. I enjoy it, i like learning about other cultures and being a part of them. However I disagree that it is something that should be forced onto people (not saying that you feel that way just explaining myself)
You should stop and think about what you're saying. You created a straw man caricature of my views, tore it down, then told me you know that the straw man is not representative of my views.
I see alot of people who as you said distort their motives, perhaps its a new york thing but the people who want the most diversity in NY, also seem to be the least tolerant people I personally know. i understand my anecdote does not mean that all people who are pro diversity are evil intolerant people, just that is what it seems like here in NY these days.
Well at least your made up bullshit is an anecdote this time.
I want to be a professional and to not have my employer lie to me about their expectations. And I don't want to be chastised for defending my own interests in an economy heavily biased for my employer.
i understand now, i dont have any specific links to go by
Not surprised.
however I would argue that the woman who was sued for not baking a cake would be an example of someone being unjustly charged with a hate crime in one instance
Since you're naming a specific incident, can you please link to it? I'm not aware of a baker being charged with a hate crime.
I see your point and im sorry if thats how the way you see things is making you feel. however numbers dont lie, and only 20 examples in a city is a rounding error as I said, and not a "thing" it would be like if everyone in NYC lived their lives in fear of another airplane attack because it happened back in 2001, yeah it could happen but the odds are very slim
This is a bullshit analogy. It'd be like if over 250 attacks (again I don't know if the number 20 is accurate, but taking it for granted, that's 8,406,000 population in NYC over 652,000 in Seattle, times 20) happened in NYC in the course of a year. This year.
I sincerely hope the best for you and your area as 1 attack on another , regardless of the reasoning is a bad thing
What I do doubt is the generalization that some people make from this, that all or even a majority of white males today in Western society are the "enemy" or are "evil" or "bad" in some way.
Already addressed this in another comment. The only people calling white people evil are the people getting upset that anyone else values diversity. It's a straw man argument.
I don't and won't apologize for being a white male.
Good. Neither will I. No one asked you to.
I don't and won't apologize for being a white male. As I said above, I live in Hawaii (where white male dominance, by the way, is long a thing of the past) and I married an Asian. I love and would never give up either the diversity of this part of the world or the multicultural richness that my marriage has brought me. I also try to do everything I can to treat people fairly. Is it too much to ask to be treated fairly in return, and not be categorized and stigmatized because I happen to be a white male?
Do you feel you're being treated unfairly because here in Seattle we're talking about a problem that doesn't appear to be about you in any way? Has anyone said to you, as a white male in Hawaii, that you're responsible for hate crimes in Seattle? As a white male, who works in the tech industry, in Seattle, I am engaging this conversation as if it is about facts and the desire of people in my community. I don't feel like your defensive interjections are in the same spirit. Consider the possibility that this isn't about you.
You and I have been over this like four times today. As the queer population in Seattle is decreasing, violence against queers is increasing. My neighborhood is a homogenizing community with increasing conflict.
I have a question for you since you support diversity in the workplace.
To be clear, I wasn't talking about the workplace. I know Slashdot hates reading the thing they respond to, but this is getting ridiculous. The post, and my comments, are about diversity (among other issues) in Seattle. I work here, but I also live here. I can change jobs, but changing cities is much harder.
Regarding workplace diversity, it's complicated. Between distortions of reality, you hint at some of why it is (and miss a lot of other reasons). But I think you miss the point of a discussion about diversity. You begin with the assumption that diversity is achieved by having a number of people-groups checked off on a list, but it isn't.
Inasmuch as diversity is a discrete goal, that goal is achieved when people with diverse experiences and roles in society are comfortably peers.
im not sure ive ever seen that as what diversity was all about
I do. So we see it differently. That's probably why I value it more than you do.
you dont need to be diverse to not hate others
Of course not. It just tends to have that effect.
while one can want diversity SOOO bad, that one turns into one of the hateful people that you are speaking of
Lots of people can distort motives in lots of ways. What you're describing is not typical, it's a caricature of a stereotype. You've seen an article bemoaning the loss of Seattle diversity, taken it as a threat, and proceeded to post scattershot about how the problem is actually the opposite of what people's experiences are.
I realize it's pointless to argue with you, but your points are not based in fact, they're based in fear.
sorry, i wrote non 2 times. im saying if you are at a bar and you get in a fight with someone, you dont know they are gay until after the fight. yet sometimes you will still get charged with a hate crime.
I understood your "point", I asked you to provide evidence of it, with specific instances where it has happened. You didn't do that. Please do that.
somewhere else in this threat it was said that there were 20 cases in 2014. Id hardly call that a "thing"
I don't know the actual numbers. What I know is that I live in a neighborhood that used to be a safe haven and isn't anymore. And that lack of safety is felt all around me. Not everyone in a targeted group needs to be directly affected by a hate crime to feel its intended terror. You don't see the significance of a rise in violence against queers in a historically queer neighborhood, presumably because you've never needed to seek refuge in such a place.
I'd go even further and say that "whiteness" is entirely fabricated and only exists as a social construct. The biological and cultural reality is that race breaks down under many kinds of scrutiny.
Be that as it may, it's also a powerful social construct. "Whiteness" doesn't just convey a number of social privileges, it also provides a set of assumptions of belonging for a huge proportion of the people who can reasonable be described as "white". It provides none of those qualities for people who don't have the "whiteness" attributes.
It's easy to dissect social differences into absurdity, but it's a mistake to pretend that race isn't a strong force in many social issues. As such, while people of any given race have a wide range of experiences, beliefs, attachments and orthogonal social variations, their race also tends to have a huge impact on a certain range of experiences. For "white" people, one of the prevailing experiences is being dominant in many respects. This effect is amplified for people who were born with a penis, who are comfortable with a male gender role, and who are attracted to people who were born white, with a vagina, and comfortable with a female gender role.
The effect is not total, but it is generally observable. The effect also isn't universal, nor is it universally applied. It's not applied as strongly in less "white" places, though it tends to have a surprising residual presence in most of them.
The biggest exception to all of these power dynamics is access to wealth. Moderate access to wealth has the effect of making these other dominant attributes somewhat less potent. Access to extreme wealth eliminates many of the competing advantages. But not all of them.
Glad we had this overly specific discussion. I hope to press buttons that send electric signals into a series of electronic circuits that connect to wires and other such machines and eventually communicates data in the form of text to you, again in the future.
diversity for it's own sake? That's a recipe for disaster.
It's not for its own sake. Diversity has the desirable quality of leading people to behave less like hateful shits. As a mental exercise, imagine if the world were composed entirely of Slashdot commenters. Good luck sleeping tonight.
It doesn't strike me as trolling, it strikes me as horribly misguided. You're assuming that being lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered or queer is hereditary. If that were the case, don't you think your hypothesis would have come to pass long ago?
The first person to mention evil is you. The post was lamenting declining diversity—a social quality the author values—in favor of increasing majority homogeny. You may not specifically value diversity, but those of us who do are not maligning the majority group.
So-called "black on black crime" is not the same thing as "hate crime". Black people don't commit violence against other black people for being black. Likewise, queer people don't commit anti-queer hate crimes. They might commit other kinds of crime against each other, in some number which may be worth discussing if anyone wants to provide evidence worth discussing, but that isn't the topic thus far.
Slashdot Mirror
Your definition of professional sounds remarkably like slavery.
Need evidence of this.
Finally! For links, you can find a ton of positive attributes of a diverse society by googling "diversity leads to", but to be more direct:
Being exposed to different cultures can cause conflict, but it can also cause reflection. In a truly diverse society, where diverse members of the society are treated as peers, people are accountable for the way they relate to members of the community who are not of the same group. Accountability is a powerful equalizer. The cases where "diversity" is represented as conflict, it's absolutely not the case that the non-dominant members are peers.
I would caution that it's inappropriate to treat as "diversity" a scenario where a dominant group is intermixed with a subject group for their exploitation. Otherwise, the Antebellum South of the US was among the most diverse societies in history. I don't think anyone would ever claim this.
There'd be no rape, robbery, or violence. People would keep to themselves like social shut-ins tend to do.
Sounds fantastic.
People attack each other, shout slurs and publicly express wishes of others' death. Slashdot is overflowing with hostility and it's barely possible to have a coherent discussion. I can't think of another corner of the Internet where people hurl "nigger" or "fag" at each other more. I can think of few places so quick to ignore arguments and resort to generalized attacks about any perceived identity. Don't take this the wrong way, but this is one of the worst places on the Internet.
Oh you're still fighting for Jim Crow. Never mind.
So basically, anyone who complains about how things are has to defend everything said or done by anyone else who also complains about how things are. The same standard is obviously not applied to people who defend how things are. COOL.
LOL okay thanks for the info
Literally nothing you said is true.
i think you are looking at what i write to you as im the enemy and therefore what I say is bull.
Nope. Just reading the words you post and responding as if you mean them.
i did no such thing, you accused me of living in fear and other junk and i simply was making an argument based on my experiences
But you did.
Setting up straw man and tearing it down:
there is no fear on my side, but we do see the idea of diversity differently. I dont believe there is a need for it. I enjoy it, i like learning about other cultures and being a part of them. However I disagree that it is something that should be forced onto people (not saying that you feel that way just explaining myself)
Admitting the straw man is not my view:
there is no fear on my side, but we do see the idea of diversity differently. I dont believe there is a need for it. I enjoy it, i like learning about other cultures and being a part of them. However I disagree that it is something that should be forced onto people (not saying that you feel that way just explaining myself)
I made up nothing.
You told me that someone was charged with a hate crime for not baking a cake.
see, this is the problem. I am sitting here not insulting you, trying to understand your side while offering my side of things.
No you're not. If you can't understand that, this is not going to be productive.
yet your side seems unable to do so without resorting to smugness.
I asked you to defend any of your outlandish claims with evidence, and you continued posting more outlandish claims and refused to provide any evidence. I'm not being smug, I'm being efficient with my use of Internet Debate Time.
What I said was in simple terms, "dont hurt people for...reasons" I dont care black white gay straight, you shouldnt be attacking someone for no reason.
I'm not attacking anyone at all. I came in here to defend.
As for the baker, you didnt hear about the baker being forced to pay over 100 grand to a lesbian couple because they refused to bake them a custom cake???? google is your friend, and for someone who is caught up on LGBTQDFHSDTHUA++ you should be well aware of that case
1. I'm aware of a number of contrived cases about "cakes". Please specify one, with a link to something anything. Your claim was not that someone was sued, but that someone was charged with a hate crime. This might be news to you, but some things are not the same as other things.
2. LGBTQDFHSDTHUA++ - Oh yeah, you don't want people to attack each other. You just literally mashed your keyboard because you couldn't be bothered to understand what the acronym is that represents several sub-sections of society whose concerns you can't stop taking time out of your day to dismiss. The amount of defensive disdain is palpable.
Look, do you want to have an honest, compassionate discussion about things you are actually self-aware enough to admit you don't understand? Stop acting like you're an equal in that discussion. I am not an authority on queer issues in Seattle, but I'm a queer in Seattle. I have more experience than you do as a not-queer in not-Seattle. If you want to understand my "side" of a discussion, stop putting straw men in front of me that queers are getting innocent bigots charged with hate crimes over cakes. It's not real, it's not true, it's a caricature, it's insulting, and it's not in the spirit of honest discussion.
Oh I thought I was having this conversation, not one deliberately designed to caricature it.
there is no fear on my side, but we do see the idea of diversity differently. I dont believe there is a need for it. I enjoy it, i like learning about other cultures and being a part of them. However I disagree that it is something that should be forced onto people (not saying that you feel that way just explaining myself)
You should stop and think about what you're saying. You created a straw man caricature of my views, tore it down, then told me you know that the straw man is not representative of my views.
I see alot of people who as you said distort their motives, perhaps its a new york thing but the people who want the most diversity in NY, also seem to be the least tolerant people I personally know. i understand my anecdote does not mean that all people who are pro diversity are evil intolerant people, just that is what it seems like here in NY these days.
Well at least your made up bullshit is an anecdote this time.
I want to be a professional and to not have my employer lie to me about their expectations. And I don't want to be chastised for defending my own interests in an economy heavily biased for my employer.
i understand now, i dont have any specific links to go by
Not surprised.
however I would argue that the woman who was sued for not baking a cake would be an example of someone being unjustly charged with a hate crime in one instance
Since you're naming a specific incident, can you please link to it? I'm not aware of a baker being charged with a hate crime.
I see your point and im sorry if thats how the way you see things is making you feel. however numbers dont lie, and only 20 examples in a city is a rounding error as I said, and not a "thing" it would be like if everyone in NYC lived their lives in fear of another airplane attack because it happened back in 2001, yeah it could happen but the odds are very slim
This is a bullshit analogy. It'd be like if over 250 attacks (again I don't know if the number 20 is accurate, but taking it for granted, that's 8,406,000 population in NYC over 652,000 in Seattle, times 20) happened in NYC in the course of a year. This year.
I sincerely hope the best for you and your area as 1 attack on another , regardless of the reasoning is a bad thing
No idea what this means. Have another toke duder.
Lots of it yeah.
What I do doubt is the generalization that some people make from this, that all or even a majority of white males today in Western society are the "enemy" or are "evil" or "bad" in some way.
Already addressed this in another comment. The only people calling white people evil are the people getting upset that anyone else values diversity. It's a straw man argument.
I don't and won't apologize for being a white male.
Good. Neither will I. No one asked you to.
I don't and won't apologize for being a white male. As I said above, I live in Hawaii (where white male dominance, by the way, is long a thing of the past) and I married an Asian. I love and would never give up either the diversity of this part of the world or the multicultural richness that my marriage has brought me. I also try to do everything I can to treat people fairly. Is it too much to ask to be treated fairly in return, and not be categorized and stigmatized because I happen to be a white male?
Do you feel you're being treated unfairly because here in Seattle we're talking about a problem that doesn't appear to be about you in any way? Has anyone said to you, as a white male in Hawaii, that you're responsible for hate crimes in Seattle? As a white male, who works in the tech industry, in Seattle, I am engaging this conversation as if it is about facts and the desire of people in my community. I don't feel like your defensive interjections are in the same spirit. Consider the possibility that this isn't about you.
You and I have been over this like four times today. As the queer population in Seattle is decreasing, violence against queers is increasing. My neighborhood is a homogenizing community with increasing conflict.
I have a question for you since you support diversity in the workplace.
To be clear, I wasn't talking about the workplace. I know Slashdot hates reading the thing they respond to, but this is getting ridiculous. The post, and my comments, are about diversity (among other issues) in Seattle. I work here, but I also live here. I can change jobs, but changing cities is much harder.
Regarding workplace diversity, it's complicated. Between distortions of reality, you hint at some of why it is (and miss a lot of other reasons). But I think you miss the point of a discussion about diversity. You begin with the assumption that diversity is achieved by having a number of people-groups checked off on a list, but it isn't.
Inasmuch as diversity is a discrete goal, that goal is achieved when people with diverse experiences and roles in society are comfortably peers.
im not sure ive ever seen that as what diversity was all about
I do. So we see it differently. That's probably why I value it more than you do.
you dont need to be diverse to not hate others
Of course not. It just tends to have that effect.
while one can want diversity SOOO bad, that one turns into one of the hateful people that you are speaking of
Lots of people can distort motives in lots of ways. What you're describing is not typical, it's a caricature of a stereotype. You've seen an article bemoaning the loss of Seattle diversity, taken it as a threat, and proceeded to post scattershot about how the problem is actually the opposite of what people's experiences are.
I realize it's pointless to argue with you, but your points are not based in fact, they're based in fear.
sorry, i wrote non 2 times. im saying if you are at a bar and you get in a fight with someone, you dont know they are gay until after the fight. yet sometimes you will still get charged with a hate crime.
I understood your "point", I asked you to provide evidence of it, with specific instances where it has happened. You didn't do that. Please do that.
somewhere else in this threat it was said that there were 20 cases in 2014. Id hardly call that a "thing"
I don't know the actual numbers. What I know is that I live in a neighborhood that used to be a safe haven and isn't anymore. And that lack of safety is felt all around me. Not everyone in a targeted group needs to be directly affected by a hate crime to feel its intended terror. You don't see the significance of a rise in violence against queers in a historically queer neighborhood, presumably because you've never needed to seek refuge in such a place.
I'd go even further and say that "whiteness" is entirely fabricated and only exists as a social construct. The biological and cultural reality is that race breaks down under many kinds of scrutiny.
Be that as it may, it's also a powerful social construct. "Whiteness" doesn't just convey a number of social privileges, it also provides a set of assumptions of belonging for a huge proportion of the people who can reasonable be described as "white". It provides none of those qualities for people who don't have the "whiteness" attributes.
It's easy to dissect social differences into absurdity, but it's a mistake to pretend that race isn't a strong force in many social issues. As such, while people of any given race have a wide range of experiences, beliefs, attachments and orthogonal social variations, their race also tends to have a huge impact on a certain range of experiences. For "white" people, one of the prevailing experiences is being dominant in many respects. This effect is amplified for people who were born with a penis, who are comfortable with a male gender role, and who are attracted to people who were born white, with a vagina, and comfortable with a female gender role.
The effect is not total, but it is generally observable. The effect also isn't universal, nor is it universally applied. It's not applied as strongly in less "white" places, though it tends to have a surprising residual presence in most of them.
The biggest exception to all of these power dynamics is access to wealth. Moderate access to wealth has the effect of making these other dominant attributes somewhat less potent. Access to extreme wealth eliminates many of the competing advantages. But not all of them.
Glad we had this overly specific discussion. I hope to press buttons that send electric signals into a series of electronic circuits that connect to wires and other such machines and eventually communicates data in the form of text to you, again in the future.
diversity for it's own sake? That's a recipe for disaster.
It's not for its own sake. Diversity has the desirable quality of leading people to behave less like hateful shits. As a mental exercise, imagine if the world were composed entirely of Slashdot commenters. Good luck sleeping tonight.
sometimes when a non gay person attacks a non gay person, its not because he is gay, yet its still listed as a hate crime
Which times? Be specific.
look at the actual numbers not just the "doubled" part and you will see its still a rounding error. its not a "thing"
I can assure you that it is a "thing". And it's a terrifying thing, in a place that had come to be a safe haven.
It doesn't strike me as trolling, it strikes me as horribly misguided. You're assuming that being lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered or queer is hereditary. If that were the case, don't you think your hypothesis would have come to pass long ago?
The first person to mention evil is you. The post was lamenting declining diversity—a social quality the author values—in favor of increasing majority homogeny. You may not specifically value diversity, but those of us who do are not maligning the majority group.
So-called "black on black crime" is not the same thing as "hate crime". Black people don't commit violence against other black people for being black. Likewise, queer people don't commit anti-queer hate crimes. They might commit other kinds of crime against each other, in some number which may be worth discussing if anyone wants to provide evidence worth discussing, but that isn't the topic thus far.
Yes, I'm sure I don't mean that.