Slashdot Mirror


Iowa Makes a Bold Admission: We Need Fewer Roads

An anonymous reader writes: During a recent Urban Land Institute talk, the director of the Iowa Department of Transportation, Paul Trombino, told an audience that the road network in Iowa was probably going to "shrink." Calling for fewer highways isn't what you'd normally expect from a government transportation official, but since per capita driving has peaked in the U.S., it might make sense for states to question whether or not to spend their transportation budgets on new roads.

285 comments

  1. The war on roads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thus begins the war on roads, think of the children!

    1. Re:The war on roads by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Thus begins the war on roads, think of the children!

      Straight out of page 48 of Agenda 21.

      Some people think that this is part of a coordinated effort by governments, worldwide, to increase their own power by coralling the bulk of their populations in high-density urban areas, limiting their access to transportation, and making them totally dependent on government controlled services.

      By that model, "Transit oriented developments" (i.e. no space to park a car for you - go only where and when public transit deigns to take you), "walkable neighborhoods", and "getting people over their love affair with cars" (by designing road networks to make commuting and recreational travel difficult and unpleasant) isn't enough. They've been closing roads in much of the rural areas, in the name of "protecting the environment". Next step: Make it a public policy to abandon or close non-wilderness rural roads.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    2. Re:The war on roads by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2

      Pedestrian friendly neighborhoods are the most oppressive tool in the despot's bag. Fight back! Tear up a sidewalk today.

    3. Re:The war on roads by TWX · · Score: 2

      They've been closing roads in much of the rural areas, in the name of "protecting the environment". Next step: Make it a public policy to abandon or close non-wilderness rural roads.

      Sounds like you're a member of the Pave the Whales Foundation...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    4. Re: The war on roads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to see the suburbs of Seoul and other large cities in Asia. People live in super high density skyscrapers, with crowded elevators, overflowing subway trains, no room for kids to play.

      I'll take urban sprawling over that

    5. Re:The war on roads by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Pedestrian friendly neighborhoods are the most oppressive tool in the despot's bag. Fight back! Tear up a sidewalk today.

      You misunderstand the urban-planning term of art (which may have been chosen to sell you on that idea.)

      "Walkable neighborhoods" are NOT "pedestrian friendly". They are "car hostile". They involve high-density housing with no practical automobile access. You are expected to do all your shopping by walking to the stores and carrying the groceries or other goods back home.

      The stores, of course, have a small, captive, clientele. So they don't have the economy of scale of, say, a supermarket, and are priced like a convenience store. (Imagine only being able to get groceries from your local 7-11 and having to carry them home.)

      If your home is in a "transit-oriented development" - and it actually HAS some transit - you can try carrying your groceries back on a bus or (if you're VERY lucky, aren't working, and can time your shopping trip for rush hour) a commuter train.

      (Of course such high-density developments are primarily constructed in low-income neighborhoods. So the transit agencies get their bond measures through by promising the higher-income cities they serve that they will refuse to serve the developments, to avoid becoming a commuter-service for petty thieves and burglary rings into their ritzy suburbs and white-collar office spaces. So you end up with "transit-oriented" and "walkable" developments with no transit.)

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    6. Re:The war on roads by C0R1D4N · · Score: 2

      I would love to live in a walking neighborhood personally. Unfortunately my job and region are extremely car-necessary?

    7. Re:The war on roads by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      I would love to live in a walking neighborhood personally.

      You LIKE being mugged?

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    8. Re:The war on roads by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand the urban-planning term of art (which may have been chosen to sell you on that idea.)

      "Walkable neighborhoods" are NOT "pedestrian friendly". They are "car hostile". They involve high-density housing with no practical automobile access. You are expected to do all your shopping by walking to the stores and carrying the groceries or other goods back home.

      And this is bad how? I have lived in such a place, and it was an improvement.

      The stores, of course, have a small, captive, clientele. So they don't have the economy of scale of, say, a supermarket, and are priced like a convenience store. (Imagine only being able to get groceries from your local 7-11 and having to carry them home.)

      We don't have to imagine, we have real world examples such as Hong Kong and Singapore, the two highest density places on earth, both of which have high density, low car ownership, and both of which have far more choice than any car-oriented town you care to name.

      If your home is in a "transit-oriented development" - and it actually HAS some transit - you can try carrying your groceries back on a bus or (if you're VERY lucky, aren't working, and can time your shopping trip for rush hour) a commuter train.

      (Of course such high-density developments are primarily constructed in low-income neighborhoods.

      Examples? We must be talking about two different things here. Some of the best places around the world are "walkable neighbourhoods". In fact every neighbourhood in human history was walkable up until 70 years ago. I can only guess that you're talking about some failed experiment in the US somewhere. This is more a flaw in your planning processes than the "walkable neighbourhood" as a concept.

    9. Re:The war on roads by Bugamn · · Score: 1

      Do you drive a tinfoil car?

    10. Re:The war on roads by omfgnosis · · Score: 2

      Replying to both your comments together, because the second surely expounds on the first.

      Straight out of page 48 of Agenda 21 [un.org].

      So, before I respond to the content of that, let's address the elephant in the room: this is the hallmark of conspiracy theory, which isn't an immediate dismissal of an idea but is surely an alarm bell to look closer at some claims. So, I did look closer, at page 48 of Agenda 21, and I came to the following conclusions:

      1. No, it's not straight out of that page of that document. The only way it seems remotely relevant is that it seems you're preoccupied with that document.
      2. Page 48 of Agenda 21 is pretty lame fodder for this kind of paranoia. It is basically suggesting that certain existing transportation funding be reallocated to better address need, which is entirely consistent with UN public policy so we don't need to go referring to nefarious-sounding documents.
      3. The only thing on that page that can remotely be construed as "car hostile" is the following: "Reducing subsidies on, and recovering the full costs of, environmental and other services of high standard (e.g. water supply, sanitation, waste collection, roads, telecommunications) provided to higher income neighbourhoods;" But it's worth noting that it otherwise flies in the face of your claim (which I'll address more directly, below) that this is designed to increase dependence on government services. If anything, the reduction in subsidies should produce a reduction in dependence, right? By reallocating those funds, the theory goes, it becomes essentially a wash.

      Some people think...

      Hey look. If you're going to post some black helicopters nonsense based on innuendo and fabrication, at least have the courage of conscience to avoid weasel words like "some people think". Own it, you believe this idea. That's why you're sharing it so candidly.

      Some people think that this is part of a coordinated effort by governments, worldwide, to increase their own power by coralling the bulk of their populations in high-density urban areas, limiting their access to transportation, and making them totally dependent on government controlled services.

      By that model, "Transit oriented developments" (i.e. no space to park a car for you - go only where and when public transit deigns to take you), "walkable neighborhoods", and "getting people over their love affair with cars" (by designing road networks to make commuting and recreational travel difficult and unpleasant) isn't enough. They've been closing roads in much of the rural areas, in the name of "protecting the environment". Next step: Make it a public policy to abandon or close non-wilderness rural roads.

      [...]

      You misunderstand the urban-planning term of art (which may have been chosen to sell you on that idea.)

      "Walkable neighborhoods" are NOT "pedestrian friendly". They are "car hostile". They involve high-density housing with no practical automobile access. You are expected to do all your shopping by walking to the stores and carrying the groceries or other goods back home.

      The stores, of course, have a small, captive, clientele. So they don't have the economy of scale of, say, a supermarket, and are priced like a convenience store. (Imagine only being able to get groceries from your local 7-11 and having to carry them home.)

      If your home is in a "transit-oriented development" - and it actually HAS some transit - you can try carrying your groceries back on a bus or (if you're VERY lucky, aren't working, and can time your shopping trip for rush hour) a commuter train.

      (Of course such high-density developments are primarily constructed in low-income neighborhoods. So the transit agencies get their bond measures through by promising the higher-income cities they serve that they will refuse to serve the developments, to avoid becoming a commuter-service for petty thieves and burglary rings into their ri

    11. Re:The war on roads by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      I get mugged in my walkable neighborhood every day. Won't someone with a car come rescue me?

  2. It all depends.... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It certainly doesn't make sense to plow money in to maintaining roads that are not being used. But there is also a cost with abandoning roads, so the overall benefit must be determined on a road by road basis. But that certainly is a departure from the general assumption that we must maintain all roads.

    Do you shut down a road, or let it die a slow death?

    1. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is the cost of abandoning roads? Zero. There are plenty of abandoned roads in the US and the world. There is no cost. They are abandoned.

    2. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because very few "Abandoned" roads are actually abandoned. People still use them.

    3. Re:It all depends.... by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If a road is abandoned, who gets the rights to that property? If it is public land then does the public still have access to it? If they do does the government have responsibility to keep it safe? If they public isn't allowed on it, how will this be enforced?
      If the land goes to the adjacent private property kinda like a reverse eminent domain, does the land holder have to pay for this land, do they get it for free. Will this extra land area raise their property taxes. What about getting rid of the old pavement?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    4. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The cost is not zero. Let's say they abandon the road that you live on. It may be passable for a few years. But soon the surface will crack, potholes will form, vegetation will start growing in these crevices. One day you'll be riding your bike down your road, like you've done for years. But you'll hit an unexpected pothole, then your bike tire will snag a protruding piece of asphalt as you try to recover. You'll be flung off of your bike, and you'll end up face first on the crumbling remains of the sidewalk. There is a definite cost to the dental work you need to repair your busted teeth, as well as other medical care to fix your broken nose and the multiple scrapes and bruises you suffered. Your car isn't much better off. You end up driving through pothole after pothole, which weakens the transmission. One day you're driving along, hit yet another pothole, and the tranny on your car gives out. It literally falls off, splits open, and your car isn't going anywhere. You have to pay to get it towed, and then pay for the repairs. And since your road is now in total disrepair, and abandoned, the city decides to cut off garbage collection. Now you have to dispose of your garbage yourself, which includes driving it to the dump yourself (this causes more stress on your newly-repaired car tranny, causing it to fall apart again some time later), or just letting it sit around. After your car's tranny fails for the sixth time, you just start leaving the garbage lying around outside of your house. The property values plummet, causing your mortgage to be worth two or three times what your home and property's actual value is. Finally, the cable line you use for your Internet connection ends up requiring some repair. Since your abandoned road is now so treacherous to traverse, the repair vans cannot make their way to the malfunctioning equipment. You will never have Internet access again. Yet while you sit there, Internetless in your home on an abandoned road, you tell yourself, "What is the cost of abandoning roads? Zero."

    5. Re:It all depends.... by davidleelambert · · Score: 1
      1. Cost of putting up signs directing drivers not to use the road
      2. Cost of actually tearing up the road
      3. Cost of having police patrol the road (on foot, because it's now impassible to cars) to make sure no one has put up a meth lab in the middle
      4. Additional travel-time for drivers, truckers, and emergency vehicles who can no longer go through on that road
      5. Time and legal fees spent defending against lawsuits from people who complain that one of the above steps was done, not done, or wrongly done.
      --
      note: I have at least one, possibly two other, Slashdot accounts because OpenID creds can't be merged with an older acco
    6. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      heck, we still marvel at the roads the roman empire abandoned.

    7. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously? Do you really think anyone is talking about abandoning the roads that provide direct access to anyone's homes?

    8. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Cost of having police patrol the road (on foot, because it's now impassible to cars)"

      I don't know where you live, but where I live, the fact that there wasn't a road has never stopped cops from driving there. Be it down sidewalks, bike paths, medians, fields and various other places that if I were to put my car I would get a ticket, they drive regularly.

    9. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those must be balanced against whether or not you have the funding to MAINTAIN the same. Might want to read the article- Iowa came to the conclusion that what they were doing wasn't sustainable; and they've already made those balance decisions. As for "meth lab in the middle"...heh...nice non-argument there. Simply put most of the roads are OUT IN THE OPEN.

      1) They do fly-overs of pot farms...what in heaven and earth possesses you to think they won't do that as it's cheaper?
      2) Because it'd be...gee...out in the open...they're not going to likely set up shop along a deserted roadway.

      Municipalities and States discard roads all the time. Remember that spot in Colorado in the 2013 flooding that made the news where the road just simply vanished out from underneath the people driving over it nearby Lafayette? It's still closed. They didn't rebuild it and nobody's put a meth lab in it's spot. I know that this is /., but your remarks are some of the stupidest fucking things I've read all week long.

    10. Re:It all depends.... by thaylin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How do you know they are not? In addition, he did not say highways, he said roads, unless you are in an urban area I am sure it is safe to say that virtually all regular roads provide direct access to someones home.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    11. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or someone puts a material on the abandoned road such that it lasts decades instead of the typical 6 years for your asphalt roads, which are a huge money pit.

    12. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Likely they'll still remain a public road, just grind it back to a dirt road. It is the hardtop that is expensive to maintain. Re-grading dirt once a year or less is more palatable,

    13. Re:It all depends.... by bev_tech_rob · · Score: 2

      "Cost of having police patrol the road (on foot, because it's now impassible to cars)"

      I don't know where you live, but where I live, the fact that there wasn't a road has never stopped cops from driving there. Be it down sidewalks, bike paths, medians, fields and various other places that if I were to put my car I would get a ticket, they drive regularly.

      Exactly......local law enforcement here in Arkansas has a 4x4 SUV or two in their fleet and there are plenty of washed out roads around our countryside. No problem for them to get around...

      --
      You're messin' with my Zen Thing, man.....
    14. Re:It all depends.... by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Like abandoned railbeds, they can become hiking trails. In Europe, I have seen Roman roads that are still used as trails.

    15. Re:It all depends.... by Oliver+Wendell+Jones · · Score: 1

      He's also with the Iowa DOT. In Iowa, streets and roads are the responsibility of the City and/or County in which they reside - the DOT is responsible for Highways, Interstates and Interchanges.

      --
      A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing -- Emo Phillips
    16. Re:It all depends.... by SargentDU · · Score: 4, Informative

      In North Dakota, the road authority has an easement to use the edge of the landowner's property. When a road is closed, abandoned or not wanted, the road authority can let the landowner take over control of the easement to use for their needs. A road authority is either a Township Board, a County Highway Department, or the State Highway Department. The turnover usually has to be initiated by a petition from the landowner after the road authority has closed or stopped maintenance of the road.

    17. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't those roads be recycled into building materials, or the tarred gravel sold to cover the cleaning costs (benzene, lead and other heavy metals)? Yes, nobody cares, I know.

    18. Re:It all depends.... by operagost · · Score: 1

      This, of course, varies by the state and locality. At the local level, often a right-of-way was established for that road over someone's property. Technically, they still own that land, so if the road is abandoned, there is a process to transfer control back to them. A property my father once owned had an abandoned road running through it that was once used to access a quarry.

      The locality or state can also keep the ROW if they think it may be used in the future. Pennsylvania started on a state route 23 bypass in the Lancaster area, then abandoned it when funding became it issue. They covered what little had been graded with grass and leased it back to farmers for grazing livestock, since they'd purchased the land in this case-- the farmers no longer owned it.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    19. Re:It all depends.... by thaylin · · Score: 4, Informative

      That is not what he wass talking about. The 114k miles of roads that he considers too many includes all of the city roads, the county roads. They have a total of 114k miles included in all of that. In fact if you just look at what the DOT owns, out of the 114k, is less than 8% at 8,883 miles. The vast majority include county roads at 89,824, then municipalities at 14,965, next DOT and then parks and institutions and federal agencies.

      So please tell me, where do you exactly think these cuts are going to come from, the relatively small number of DOT responsible roads, of the huge number of country roads that is safe to say provides direct access to homes?

      http://www.iowadot.gov/about/R...

      PS whoever used comas in a URL should fired.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    20. Re:It all depends.... by bangular · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I still admire roads with no homes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    21. Re:It all depends.... by Sique · · Score: 1

      In Europe, I've seen Roman roads that are still maintained (and upgraded).

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    22. Re:It all depends.... by Junta · · Score: 1

      If there is a substantial removal, it's hard to imagine that there *wouldn't* be roads that provide direct access to homes, or sole access to some homes in the middle. If a road *can* have a house or business built along it, a house or business will likely end up connected to it. Freeways are the only sorts of roads that wouldn't suffer this phenomenon, but even then there are likely to be roads that are only connected to the larger road network by way of the freeway.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    23. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It may be passable for a few years"

      No it won't. They put up concrete barriers or tear up the road connection to prevent people from using the road. This is done all the time. The road is abandoned and you cannot use an abandoned road. If you do it is on you. There are plenty of abandoned roads in the US and the cost of them are zero. Next question.

    24. Re: It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Okay here is the more likely scenario.

      Iowa is devided, generally, into 1 mile x 1 mile sections. Typically, each section is bordered by 4 gravel roads. Today many of these sections do not have anything on them except cropland. Often the same farmer owns many adjacent sections.

      These roads are more hassle than help as no one uses many of them but they require maintainence. It is more likely they considering abandoning rural gravel roads than hard surface roadways.

    25. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you shut down a road, or let it die a slow death?
       
      You have to shut them down. A road without maintenance is a liability to the road's owner.

    26. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't totally abandon roads. You rip up the pavement and convert them back to gravel. Many states have been doing this for years: Texas, Ohio, North Dakota,... See http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704913304575370950363737746

    27. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do we not have enough money to maintain our roads. It is because road maintenance is soo costly. Why is road maintenance so costly. It is because every uncle / brother of a city council / state government representative owns and operates a road construction company. Road construction has turned from being a necessary function of the state to being a profit center for the politicians and their cohorts. Fact: the states with the most money being spent on roads e.g. Ohio, Illinoise, and Indiana have the worst roads. They are always working on these roads. By working on these roads I mean they have vast sections of road blocked off creating a hazard to motor vehicles. Nobody is actually shoveling dirt or doing anything that would have in previous generation been considered repair or construction. You may disagree with me. You are probably involved in the construction industry and have a brother in the government.

    28. Re:It all depends.... by naris · · Score: 2

      TFA: Iowans should figure out which roads “we really want to keep” and let the others “deteriorate and go away.”

      I think they have already done that in Michigan

      // To all the roads...

    29. Re:It all depends.... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      The cost is there, it is just shifted to the local cities and villages. The cost comes in damage from potholes and road damages which the locality is liable for. Also, there is a cost of more wear and tear on locals' vehicles including first responder vehicles.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    30. Re:It all depends.... by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      When I bought my house I peed on all four corners of the lot. Two of the corners are in center of the road in front of my house.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    31. Re:It all depends.... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Asphalt lasts about 1/10 as long as 'crete. It also costs 1/10 as much as 'crete (including labor).

      The real stupid move is banning 'crete additives that can change the ratio. Regulatory capture by short sighted concrete companies. They could change the ratio and capture the entire market, but prefer to keep the maintenance money flowing.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    32. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In my state. The way it works is I own it. :)

      I own a house. On that property is a road. I own all the way to the middle of the road. My neighbor across the street owns the other half of land.

      The state asserts a legal authority of 'right of way'. So from the middle of the road to about 10-15 feet into my yard is 'right of way'. They can build or do whatever on that property (lights, cables, sewer, whatever). I however own it. They maintain the road I maintain the yard. That is the bargain.

      I dont get it for free. I already own it. There just happens to be a state structure on part of it.

      What about getting rid of the old pavement?
      That can be done in one of two ways. You ask to remove it (it is still their property the concrete ashfault etc) or you ask them to remove it. Depending on who you end up talking to or what the rules are it is then removed and you can use the land. It is after all your land.

      Now in some parts of the country they own the land under it. At that point if you start maintaining it you start dealing with 15th century laws. Basically if you take care of it and it is adjacent to your property you *might* end up owning it. Then at that point it would be taxed accordingly. In some states you could bid and buy it. In others they may not let you do anything and it just sits and 'rots'. It just depends on what city/county/state you live in and the particular laws there.

    33. Re:It all depends.... by IhateMonkeys · · Score: 0

      We used to go mudding out in The Grid back in college. Nobody ever bothered us out there, not even the cops.

    34. Re:It all depends.... by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      No. They typically stop maintaining it and let it revert to gravel over a few years. This is nothing new.

      'End county maintenance' signs were common in the midwest 30 years ago. I liked to play 'rally driver' on them as a kid.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    35. Re: It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This person sounds like a sad sack. I don't want to waste my tax dollars helping this loser.

    36. Re:It all depends.... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      If the road is in use, it's not abandoned.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    37. Re:It all depends.... by rssrss · · Score: 1

      If the road is formally abandoned, the land reverts to the adjacent property owners.

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    38. Re: It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's also a well-established principle in common law that you can never earn a property right through afverse possession against the sovereign. FYI.

    39. Re: It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah? Well in America I've seen Roman roads that have been upgraded for nuclear hover cars. Ha!

    40. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they built very good roads.

    41. Re:It all depends.... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      PS whoever used comas in a URL should fired.

      Back in the old days, when Algol was being created by a committee of the best computing minds in the US and Europe (a new language! That would be the best ever!).........negotiations nearly broke down over whether to use the comma or the period as the decimal point. One participant Frenchperson wailed, "I will never use a period as a decimal point!"

      Eventually they solved it by allowing either.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    42. Re:It all depends.... by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      TFA: Iowans should figure out which roads âoewe really want to keepâ and let the others âoedeteriorate and go away.â

      I think they have already done that in Michigan

      // To all the roads...

      Quoted for truth. Most of the roads I drive on in Michigan are atrocious. Then again, maybe that's why so many libertarians want to privatize them. It's about my least important issue on the spectrum, but it would be hard for them to do worse.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    43. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      heck, we still marvel at the roads the roman empire abandoned.

      Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they?

    44. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disallowing comas in URLs is of course a no-brainer. Commas, however, seem to be legal according to RFC 3986, possibly escaped as "%2C" in specific contexts.

    45. Re:It all depends.... by TWX · · Score: 2

      Likely they'll still remain a public road, just grind it back to a dirt road. It is the hardtop that is expensive to maintain. Re-grading dirt once a year or less is more palatable,

      Depends on where you are and what kind of traffic the unmaintained pavement sees. I live in the desert and if an abandoned paved road doesn't see heavy truck traffic the biggest danger to it being covered over with wind-blown dirt or sand. Over the span of years the next danger is the striping eroding off and making it riskier to drive due to the lack of defined shoulder line, and over longer spans like decades, expansive soil eventually cracking and heaving the pavement.

      I imagine that in places that suffer freezing in the winter, the expansion crack/heave problem can be measured in months or years rather than decades. In other places like Hawaii, they have to constantly mow the shoulders to keep the foliage at bay. I imagine in some particularly wet lowland parts of the southern United States they have to deal with subsidence and the roads sinking back into the swamp in places.

      I'm not going to comment on what Iowa should do because I've never been there and I do not know how roads wear there. Iowans themselves, in concert with any external agencies that provide funding for maintenance, should be the ones discussing this.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    46. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least in Michigan, the land under the road is still owned by adjacent owner. The road only has a "right of way" to be there. In my case, 33' from the center of the road is available to the Road Commission. More major roads get 66' from the center.

      If it ceases being a road, I don't think it can automatically be turned into something else (such as a hiking trail). At least, when nearby railroads were being turned into trails, the owners had to give consent. (and of course the fricking tea party ones wouldn't, so it killed the project)

    47. Re:It all depends.... by stu72 · · Score: 1

      If this hypothetical road is so important to the people living on it, they can always simply choose the free enterprise approach and maintain it themselves.

      The point the Iowa DOT is making isn't that there must be less roads but that government built roads have gotten way out of whack and there is far more asphalt per person than we could ever hope to afford. Nothing stops a few industrious folks from stepping up and maintaining their own roads.

      If the people living on a road can't afford to keep it upgraded, then it's a sign from the universe that they can't really afford the lifestyle they are trying to live and they have been subsidized for years. There are lots of options
      - gravel roads cost a tiny fraction of hardtop roads
      - hiking trails cost even less

    48. Re:It all depends.... by TWX · · Score: 1

      I very much doubt that any Roman roads, to the description of using Roman design, are in-service as high quality roadways anymore. Their alignments or rights of way might still be in use, but either completely replaced or else substantially upgraded to modern construction techniques.

      Calling them Roman roads when they were built and abandoned and rebuilt and re-abandoned and rebuilt again, etc is as accurate as calling the irrigation canals that supply flood-irrigation water to the Phoenix metropolitan area Hohokam canals- the canals were built by the Hohokam originally but abandoned for hundreds of years before the alignments were rediscovered, cleaned out, lined with modern concrete and control gates, and put into service again.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    49. Re:It all depends.... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Why grind it back to dirt, if it is like streets here in Minnesota just leave them unploughed when there is only a small amount of snow, get the snow and ice packed into the cracks, and nature will turn them into gravel roads in a few years. Hell there are even some out-state maintained roads where maintained means don't expect to hit a large tree growing in the middle, small tree or bush those are fair game, plus there might be hole in the road that you need 4WD to get through because if you are in it the road bed outside of the hole is level with the hood of stock Jeep Cherokee (mid 90s).

      --
      Time to offend someone
    50. Re:It all depends.... by Smauler · · Score: 1

      I used to live near one, Straight road in Colchester. Straight roads in England are usually Roman.

      We also had a Roman tumulus literally just behind our back garden. It was excavated early in the 20th century, IIRC, and some stuff they got out of it is on display in Colchester castle. No one knew the tumulus was there, though, there are quite a few of them around Colchester. The house was just a standard suburban house, and as kids we used to play on the tumulus a bit, but it was quite overgrown with brambles etc.

    51. Re:It all depends.... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I still play rally drive on those types of roads, they are plowed and sometimes they run the road grader down them but not much else.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    52. Re:It all depends.... by TWX · · Score: 1

      It also depends on how it was subdivided in the first place. In the subdivision that I live in, the city owns the road, the sidewalk, and about two feet of the unpaved yard adjacent to the sidewalk, to be reserved for an easement for public utilities. It also owns the alley behind the property. The bulk of the city is configured this way as it was built off of a county and state plan that was surveyed and plotted before the area was particularly settled. The laws of the city require that the property owner maintain the unpaved portion of municipal land between their property and the improved street or sidewalk, as well as maintaining the half of the alley adjacent to the property (basically preventing weeds from getting out of hand and ensuring that the garbage truck can pass).

      My city doesn't have very many areas with HOAs because it was completed and land-locked by other municipalities before the rise of the HOA, but in other places, if I understand it correctly, the large parcel that was subdivided to create the neighborhood still exists as a legal entity (the HOA itself) and that HOA, not the city, owns the roads. Depending on the legal agreements that created the subdivision and HOA in the first place it might be the HOA that has to maintain those roads, or it might be the city's responsibility. That's part why HOAs can do things like prohibit street parking overnight when the city would otherwise allow it. To me that's the worst of both worlds; HOAs generally aren't run by professionals so their rulemaking bodies are fraught with questionable decisions and uneven enforcement, and the homeowner pays 'tax' to the HOA while still having to pay all of the other municipal, county, and state taxes that might be imposed on the land.

      I'm sure that in rural areas, or on undivided parcels, or on divided parcels where the land was only subdivided into large acreages as opposed to suburban or urban sizes the rules are different.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    53. Re:It all depends.... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      In Florida, it can be a pissing contest between neighboring counties for who pays to maintain the road. One county benefits from the road (and has coastal property taxes with which to pay maintenance), the other mostly doesn't, but both have 30+ miles of asphalt to maintain. Rather than footing the bill for their side of the road, the contrarian county will often close it as a bargaining chip to get the other county to pay for the maintenance.

    54. Re:It all depends.... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      This is ignoring the cost of public services which are still delivered to and along the abandoned road - were there no road, there would be precious few people trespassing across a private field. But, since there is this abandoned road clearly marking the public right of way, all manner of people go out there, get hurt, need medical evac, get drunk, need police to restrain them, etc.

    55. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a road is abandoned, who gets the rights to that property? If it is public land then does the public still have access to it? If they do does the government have responsibility to keep it safe? If they public isn't allowed on it, how will this be enforced?
      If the land goes to the adjacent private property kinda like a reverse eminent domain, does the land holder have to pay for this land, do they get it for free. Will this extra land area raise their property taxes. What about getting rid of the old pavement?

      With crop ground selling for between 2 and 4 thousand an acre I think people will figure it out.

    56. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Talking generally, an easement is a legal right for a 3rd party to use or traverse the land owned by someone else. They are frequently written into the deed for the property, or governed by some other law written by the municipality. So if we are talking about a road that the state built so that others can easily cross your property then the road is already yours. If you can show that the easement is no longer used or needed then you would petition the government to have the easement lifted. I think the question that was originally proposed is who takes ownership of public land that was originally a publicly maintained road.

      I know of an old case in Pennsylvania of a two mile long public access road that was used to access an old church owned cemetery at the end. The road was there a long time and fell into disrepair. The church petitioned the government several times to pay for the maintenance. The church eventually offered to pay, but was turned down for reasons I don't remember. Finally the church sued the township for possession of the road. Since the township had effectively abandon the property, it was awarded to the church since it was the only way to access the cemetery.

    57. Re:It all depends.... by fizzup · · Score: 1

      This is not true. There are Roman roads that have been maintained as roads in Great Britain for about 2,000 years (sometimes well maintained, sometimes poorly maintained). Many were abandoned, but not all.

    58. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      railroads are private property. that is completely different.

      a public road is public property. it and its right-of-way takes away from the properties next to it. if a public road is 'abandoned' by the government, the land it covers should revert back to the adjacent landowners.

      roadway centerlines are often used in legal descriptions of land.

      the exception would be large scale road projects that used eminent domain to acquire tracts of land. since those landowners were paid a fair market price (hah!), there is no one to give the land back to

    59. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The state of Vermont has grappled with what to do with old roads that have essentially disappeared, but still exist as official roads in state records. The New Yorker had a really interesting article on it, definitely worth a read. http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/where-the-roads-have-no-name

    60. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one "gets" the property it already belongs to the landowner, and BTW they have paid taxes on it for years. "Public Roads" are actually easements over private land which the public is allowed to use for the "public good" so you can get from one place to another. There was an interesting thing going on in the early days of the Internet where railroads were allowing fiber optic companies to put fiber lines down their rights of way, funny thing is the railroads didn't own the subterranean rights to the rights of way just the surface rights. In some cases the landowners got together and sued the railroads and the fiber companies and now own the fiber lines. So please don't think that there is no ownership of the roads, there is and if you own a house you generally own the property to the middle of the street in front of it and if the state abandons their right of way you will own that property again. However appealing that may sound you may want to think about how you will get to your house when the road is abandoned.

    61. Re: It all depends.... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      We are still driving on Native American roads. Though I would suspect we would call them trails. We have also upgraded most of them. I spend a bit of time off-road so I *might* have driven across one but I have no idea. Dunno what the history books taught you as a kid, not a slight or anything, but there were a metric fuckton of natives here at one point. They had large communities and a system of trails that connected them. We still use their old communities and still drive on their trails. I have been across the trail of tears but I do not think that counts. I stopped at a museum and was informed that the actual highways are not at all really associated with the trek.

      I am Micmac (a pretty rare tribe from Northern Maine and Canada) and we got along fairly well with the imports. I am not sure but somehow I was drawn back to the area but we also had a hunting cabin here and I came up here for prep school. That may have been it or it may have been something else. Either way I have a strange attraction for the land and have purchased a lot of it - it is cheap here but do not come buy any. The economy is horrific.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    62. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its been 2000 years and the Romans still build better roads than most US backwater States.

    63. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The property next to it? So when the local authorities want to build a new road they dont pay the land owner for the land the road is built on?

      Or if they do what happens if the original land owner has sold up? They where paid for the land taken from them, the new owner never owned the land and should have to compensate the local taxpayers if they want it.

      I'm not American so forgive me if these are obvious questions.

    64. Re:It all depends.... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Chances are they'll just be converted into a "minimum maintenance road" which means that it won't be plowed and they'll only do the bare minimum to keep it passable. Given Iowa's climate, it may only take a few years before you'd want to have a 4WD or a high clearance truck to try and drive some of these roads as they'll quickly deteriorate and develop large potholes. It'll also be obvious which roads still get traveled and which ones go basically unused, which could help them decide what they want to do with them.

    65. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is typically covered by state law because there is a process that needs to be followed before roads can be abandoned. Fire and police departments need to weigh in as well as utility companies and of course the public. Ownership remains public unless the municipality, county, or state sells that property. Before that happens often many years pass so that it will be known if that becomes an issue.
      I don't know what the plans are in Iowa, but often enough it is just a matter of less than a mile of road or even just a few feet to turn a unwanted rat run into a quiet dead end. I've seen this happening a few times around here and also as replacement for new construction. In most cases the street surface gets removed and trees planted to so that obnoxious drivers do not plow through that section anyway, but I also have seen more of an abandonment where the city just dumps a few concrete blocks in the roadway and then calls it done. That isn't really an abandonment.

      Transport money is better spent on more sustainable means of transportation, mainly rail and bus service. It is a tough sell outside of metropolitan areas because Americans for some reason have an affinity against sharing a vehicle with others.

    66. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the Romans built stuff that lasts, not like the modern American road: two layers of asphalt straight onto the clay ground...and then the surprised looks when two years later the cracks and crumbles return.

    67. Re:It all depends.... by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      Even if abandoned the state would likely keep the right of way. A lot less paperwork if they need to rebuild. You can still graze/farm on the land, just no permanent structures.

    68. Re:It all depends.... by metaforest · · Score: 1

      The first 600 miles of highway 5/1/101 in California is over 330 years old. It has been continuously maintained the whole time. There are even sections of it that have been bypassed to preserve it as the Spanish Mission Chain left it.

    69. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of Iowa roads don't have homes...just fields of corn on both sides.

    70. Re:It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hiking

      Or more adequately, biking (non-motorized or electric). You don't need tarmac for hiking.

    71. Re:It all depends.... by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      If a road is abandoned, who gets the rights to that property? If it is public land then does the public still have access to it? If they do does the government have responsibility to keep it safe? If they public isn't allowed on it, how will this be enforced? If the land goes to the adjacent private property kinda like a reverse eminent domain, does the land holder have to pay for this land, do they get it for free. Will this extra land area raise their property taxes. What about getting rid of the old pavement?

      There's a section of road in Michigan that use to connect two main roads. You can still see the road, but you can't get to it via the ramps - it's all closed off, completely unmaintained. You could probably walk/bike/atv/etc it; I haven't seen signs that say "no tresspassing" so theoretically it's still public property, but I wouldn't try to drive a car on it at 55MPH any more - weeds all through the concrete, etc.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    72. Re: It all depends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly so. I live in Iowa and our county road system was largely the result of Depression era projects. They were placed to aid farmers in getting food to markets. I once heard a nun -- and a DOT commissioner -- describe them this way: "Not much shoulder, but a good bed."

      Iowa is growing less rural by the year, at least in terms of people per square mile living outside of cities. At the same time, corporate hog and poultry farms grow larger. (You may not have heard about our avian flu epidemic, requiring the slaughter of tens of millions of birds this year.)

      I have a suspicion about closing some of these county roads, that is it makes it easier for even larger corporate farms to exist without creating the hazards and annoyances that would otherwise trouble their neighbors.

  3. Let's get the puns out of the way by Nidi62 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I for one applaud this trailblazing official who is paving the way by providing a roadmap for other officials to follow while going down the road to more efficient government and leading the drive towards a more fiscally responsible America.

    Now if only somone could give us a car analogy

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:Let's get the puns out of the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're puns are like a rolls canardly. They roll down the one hill and canardly get up the other side.

    2. Re:Let's get the puns out of the way by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I for one applaud this trailblazing official who is paving the way by providing a roadmap for other officials to follow while going down the road to more efficient government and leading the drive towards a more fiscally responsible America.

      Now if only somone could give us a car analogy

      Driving off a cliff?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:Let's get the puns out of the way by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      The wagon train analogy was good enough

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:Let's get the puns out of the way by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      That was a terrible movie.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Let's get the puns out of the way by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      You're puns are like a rolls canardly. They roll down the one hill and canardly get up the other side.

      I canardly follow your joke.

  4. But if you build it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They will come!

  5. Idiotic use of statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    PER CAPITA driving in the US? And what exactly does that say or not say about total driving in Iowa? As long as the population keeps going up
    (and it apparently is going up by about 0.5% a year in Iowa), we either will have to accept busier roads or build more of them. Slower growth sure.
    That also doesn't mean we should spend less total given the horrible state of many roads in much of the US. BTW, I think that more money should be spent on mass transit in many places; but that doesn't mean I will sit still for bogus arguments.

    1. Re:Idiotic use of statistics by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Except we are getting more urban and less rural. That means busier roads in the cities, and quieter roads in the country.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  6. Driving still increasing by Kohath · · Score: 2

    Even if per capita driving has peaked, the population is increasing, so total driving is still increasing.

    1. Re:Driving still increasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if per capita driving has peaked, the population is increasing, so total driving is still increasing.

      [Citation needed]. The main thing the population is doing is urbanizing, so it might easily be reasonable to shrink the rural road network.

    2. Re:Driving still increasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Citation needed]. The main thing the population is doing is urbanizing

      [Citation needed] Most people live in the suburbs that isn't not changing any time soon.

    3. Re:Driving still increasing by tepples · · Score: 1

      Even so, suburbs are still probably easier to serve with public transit than rural areas are.

    4. Re:Driving still increasing by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1, Troll

      Even if per capita driving has peaked, the population is increasing, so total driving is still increasing.

      [Citation needed].

      Biily Learns Math second grade edition.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    5. Re:Driving still increasing by SlideRuleGuy · · Score: 1

      It's easier and more practical to abandon rural gravel roads that only lead to a few farm houses, which simply become long driveways leading to those houses. So the homeowner isn't trying to drive down them at 70 mph in a sports car, but rather at 20mph in a pickup truck, hence no worries about breaking an axle. The houses slowly fall in value, but are lived in until that generation is gone. The land remains in use as farm land. Problem solved. Happens near where I live, and it's no big deal, simply the evolution of transportation.

    6. Re:Driving still increasing by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      I never drove my pickup below 70, especially on gravel... mud is even more fun!

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    7. Re:Driving still increasing by camperdave · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So the homeowner isn't trying to drive down them at 70 mph in a sports car, but rather at 20mph in a pickup truck.

      I gather you've never lived in the country. Folk will be driving down them at 70 mph in their pickups.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    8. Re:Driving still increasing by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      [Citation needed]. The main thing the population is doing is urbanizing

      [Citation needed] Most people live in the suburbs that isn't not changing any time soon.

      Despite the name, suburbs are still urban. The prefix 'sub' doesn't mean 'not quite urban,' here......it comes from the old Latin for 'below.' As in, the places where most people lived were literally below the central city, which was on top of a hill.

      For weird prefixes, the one the weirds me out the most is 'reduplicate.' What does it mean? The same as duplicate. The prefix there has no meaning.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Driving still increasing by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Despite the name, suburbs are still urban. The prefix 'sub' doesn't mean 'not quite urban,' here......it comes from the old Latin for 'below.' As in, the places where most people lived were literally below the central city, which was on top of a hill.

      Sub in suburban does actually mean "not quite" in this case. I don't know too many cities that have their CBD on top of a hill with the outskirts physically below them - Can you list some examples?
      Back the day there was urban or rural, with the advent of transport and the car, the space between the two was now a new type of middle ground and hence the term 'suburban'. Note: Yes I'm aware of the ancient Rome link to the word suburb, but that is not the same context as the modern suburb.

    10. Re:Driving still increasing by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I don't know too many cities that have their CBD on top of a hill with the outskirts physically below them - Can you list some examples?

      Rome, which is built on hills.

      Back the day there was urban or rural, with the advent of transport and the car, the space between the two was now a new type of middle ground and hence the term 'suburban'. Note: Yes I'm aware of the ancient Rome link to the word suburb, but that is not the same context as the modern suburb.

      Modern suburbs are urban areas, as strange as that may seem.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:Driving still increasing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it doesn't - you're projecting a bias because you probably like hanging out in a central urban area with hipster shops and cafes selling craft beer.

      See that word central? That's because I've had to qualify which part of the urban area is not suburban.

    12. Re:Driving still increasing by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      I don't know too many cities that have their CBD on top of a hill with the outskirts physically below them - Can you list some examples?

      Rome, which is built on hills.

      Yes, yes I already pointed that out, but since the modern suburb is a creation of the 19th and 20th centuries, do you have any other more recent examples?

      Back the day there was urban or rural, with the advent of transport and the car, the space between the two was now a new type of middle ground and hence the term 'suburban'. Note: Yes I'm aware of the ancient Rome link to the word suburb, but that is not the same context as the modern suburb.

      Modern suburbs are urban areas, as strange as that may seem.

      Not the same type as a CBD, which is why there is two different terms. When the term suburb was popularised back in the 50's, it referred to the vast new farming areas on the outskirts of the city that was used predominately for housing. It differed from traditional urban areas that were densely populated and filled business, industry and services. The Suburb was urban, but not quite urban, because it was mostly just houses and roads. Prior to the widespread use of the car, this type of area was not possible, hence the new term which actually does mean "not quite urban".

    13. Re:Driving still increasing by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      Yup. Having lived in very rural areas of Iowa, the speed limit on dirt roads was "whatever your vehicle can do so long as you can see enough road to completely stop". After harvest season you can easily see a mile in all directions for many stretches, so the risk of something going onto the road (outside of small critters) was almost nil.

  7. "Per capita?" by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article talks about how "per-capita driving has peaked," but that's not the whole issue. It makes sense to stop building roads when the total amount of driving has peaked. For that to happen, one of several scenarios needs to occur:

    • Per-capita driving peaks and population peaks too
    • Per-capita driving continues to increase but population declines enough to offset it (maybe the situation in the rust belt?)
    • Population continues to increase, but per-capita driving decreases fast enough to offset it.
    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    1. Re:"Per capita?" by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 5, Informative

      Note that, absent immigration, US population is declining.

      Note also that if current trends continue, we should see population declines in many States even if we include immigration.

      Iowa, being essentially a big farm, is one of those States ripe for population decline sooner rather than later.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:"Per capita?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. But there's one more you missed.

      Per-capita driving peaks because driving has become too expensive for frivolous use and mass transit isn't realistic.

      I think you will find most of the States are at the first or my supplied. I question the article's map for peaked/not-peaked. I can't see the numbers of Massholes increasing and knowing how the area is taxed all to hell, I'd say they're probably peaked as well. Most of the country is hitting breaking points. You cannot tax your way through most of these things. Rational, sensible thinking (which is lacking in government that is not held accountable) is needed for road building/maintenance as well as any other critical infrastructure decisions. Some have said tolls. Heh...this is simply moving the road use tax from off of gasoline to no longer really being hidden like it is. Iowa is pretty much pointing the way to what really needs to be done for all of this. A serious "look in the mirror" is called for here- for the *ENTIRE* nation on a whole host of things here.

      We don't have the budget/funds to DO these things the way we're currently doing them. We don't spend more on defense than anything else. That's a lie too- and it diminishes the actual official SANCTIONED BY THE CONSTITUTION role for the government. We spend approximately 62% on social programs at the Federal level. The observation there is the same one Iowa made. Not. Sustainable.

      We spend approximately 10% on "Health" - which is money spent on promulgating invalid dietary guidelines, approving out things like Vioxx and aspartame and the like. It's not doing it's thing. Probably ought to be re-thought or discontinued altogether because contrary to popular belief, they're not doing things in your interest or "protecting" you and haven't for YEARS now. (Hint: Removing the requirement to show country of origin on meat and then allowing them to ship slaughtered chickens to China for further processing and return to the US is hardly "protecting" you all...)

      We spend approximately 16% on "income security"- that's Welfare. I agree we should have a safety net in place. Problem is...it's not that. It's like the damned roads and "Health" and the lot. It doesn't do what it's supposed to do and there's a vast army of people on the dole and not providing ANY input back into the system whatsoever. That's something else that needs "re-thinking" or ending. Yes. I said it. I do not agree with funding a virtual slave class for vote pandering to pervert our system of things any further than it's warped.

      There's over 1/4 of the spending right there that needs a serious soul-searching session over. Defense spending is less than 2/3rds of that amount in total. There's more that is quite debatable- at best. (When you spend millions on studying the length of duck dick, you know that there's more bullshit waste to be found that should get the plug pulled on.)

    3. Re:"Per capita?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And thanks for the libertarian diatribe.

    4. Re:"Per capita?" by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Indeed. But there's one more you missed.

      No, I listed scenarios. The thing you think I missed is a reason for the scenario to occur, not a scenario itself.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:"Per capita?" by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Bullshit! It's official now, Hispanics just passed the mark for being the majority in the state of CA. It was projected to have happened back in 2014 years in advance. Ok, so they were off by a year, BFD, but they were right in their forecast.

      https://www.census.gov/content...

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    6. Re:"Per capita?" by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      And this has what, exactly, to do with what I wrote?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    7. Re:"Per capita?" by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Native births are increasing, so I don't know were you got the idea US population is declining, because that isn't true. And yes, that includes 2nd generation born in the US via foreign parents; greatly so in fact. But it is factual that the US population is growing!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    8. Re:"Per capita?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      US fertility rate is 1.89 (replacement rate is ~2.1).
      http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/fertility-rate

    9. Re:"Per capita?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The deomgraphics of change don't alter the change. Hispanics can easily become the majority of the diminishing population. Also, native births can increase and yet not be high enough to start a population growth curve due to the massive increase in deaths as the baby boomers age.

      In general, I find that when talking to someone it is very important to be talking about the same things, or these kinds of "talking past your partner" scenarios happen.

    10. Re:"Per capita?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that, absent immigration, US population is declining.

      It's a good thing only native-born Americans are allowed to use the roads, right?

    11. Re:"Per capita?" by jratcliffe · · Score: 1

      Note that, absent immigration, US population is declining.

      No, it's not. It's just not true, not even close. Natural increase (i.e. births minus deaths) is still positive, and is expected (by the Census) to remain so through their entire forecast period (through 2060). Natural increase is also currently a bigger source of population growth than net immigration.* By 2023, the Census expects immigration to exceed natural increase as a source of growth.

      *And yes, the Census figures include both legal and illegal immigration.

      See table 1 at the below link:
      http://www.census.gov/populati...

    12. Re:"Per capita?" by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I think his point is that a lot of immigrants move to rural areas, so your intuition that Iowa will decline in population more rapidly because of its ruralness is probably not accurate. He/she didn't express hiimself very well, though.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    13. Re:"Per capita?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit! It's official now, Hispanics just passed the mark for being the majority in the state of CA. It was projected to have happened back in 2014 years in advance. Ok, so they were off by a year, BFD, but they were right in their forecast.

      No they didn't, you just don't understand what a majority is.
      Hispanics are about 40% of the population of California, which makes them the largest racial/ethnic block, but it doesn't make them a majority.

    14. Re:"Per capita?" by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      Not to dispute your numbers but "absent immigration" is meaningless. The US has been for most of its history sustained by immigration.

      --
      -Styopa
    15. Re:"Per capita?" by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Total fertility rate represents the number of children that would be born to -a- woman

      100 women with a fertility rate 1 means each mother gives birth to one child.

      10 women with a fertility rate of 5 means each mother gives birth to five children.

      Based on the above, 100 women with a rate of 1 will still net increase the overall population vs a 10 with a rate of 5.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    16. Re:"Per capita?" by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You no math so good.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  8. I love central planning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Glad to know a small agencies knows what is best for the market. Time for call to only produce small 4 cycl, efficiency and all that jazz

    1. Re: I love central planning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Love private capital, you can travel my road after I get to push a sharp stick in your eye.

    2. Re: I love central planning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll be glad to see the roads disappear then, since they are the work of the evil government.

  9. Rails Roads by reyem · · Score: 1

    Back in the day the USA used to be a superpower. Nearly every community was linked by interurbans and railroads, many of which operated at higher speed than some of today's modern highways. Then the automobile came along, and people desired convenience. The automobile required billions and billions of square miles of pavement to be deployed everywhere. It was a huge economic boom, and created millions of jobs and businesses. The jobs required to upkeep all that pavement became a big part of the economy. Not to mention the secondary economies generated by automobile repair, insurance, etc. But now we are realizing how expensive all that pavement is. And it's a huuuuuuge chunk of our economy. The maintenance and upkeep budget is far higher than the budget for new infrastructure. Are cars really worth their huge hidden price tag? Convenience killed sustainability. But the railroads are dead, and it's too late to go back.

  10. Oblig by _anomaly_ · · Score: 5, Funny

    Where we're going, we don't need roads!

    Happy 30th, Back to the Future!

    --
    "I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Oblig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it really was 2015 in the movie!!!

  11. Mass transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Better in / out city transport system is still required.

    Amtrack is appalling in terms of quality of service.

  12. Not the full picture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we consider that the majority of driving is commuting to and from work. Then we factor in the current underemployment rate around 30%, real unemployment around 12%, and a labor participation rate are the lowest since the 1970s at around 70%. It should be obvious why places are not at "peak" road use.

    In fact, if you look at their little map of "peak" and "growing" states, you'll see the states with greater economic growth/less unemployment are the ones that are growing above their "peak" road use.

    So the idea is stupid. Road use will increase again when people start working again. It won't be until autonomous driving starts to drastically reduce the population that owns cars before you see significant decline in road use. Unless of course this official is hoping for continued poor economic conditions.

    1. Re:Not the full picture... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      It won't be until autonomous driving starts to drastically reduce the population that owns cars before you see significant decline in road use.

      Autonomous vehicles that aren't owned by individual drivers (or rather, passengers) would increase road use. With the current situation, a driver drives from origin to destination and the car stays at the destination until the driver returns. With automation, the vehicle drives from origin to destination and then continues to the next trip origin. Unless, for every trip from point A to B, there's always somebody already at point B that wants to go to point C (as opposed to somebody at point C that wants to go to point D), the autonomous, no-passengers drive from B to C will be a net increase in road use.

      What autonomous driving will really reduce is the need for parking.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:Not the full picture... by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      It won't be until autonomous driving starts to drastically reduce the population that owns cars before you see significant decline in road use.

      Autonomous vehicles that aren't owned by individual drivers (or rather, passengers) would increase road use. With the current situation, a driver drives from origin to destination and the car stays at the destination until the driver returns. With automation, the vehicle drives from origin to destination and then continues to the next trip origin. Unless, for every trip from point A to B, there's always somebody already at point B that wants to go to point C (as opposed to somebody at point C that wants to go to point D), the autonomous, no-passengers drive from B to C will be a net increase in road use.

      What autonomous driving will really reduce is the need for parking.

      Uhhhh... no.

      You sound like a city slicker. The thought of sharing a vehicle with some nasty assed illegal bedbug wearing drunk is what keeps people from using cabs, if you think their 90k autonomous car is going to be shared you are whack.

      MAYBE the car will be sent to a regional or local parking location, but at that point you are losing the cargo and staging capability of it, as well as the ability to decide to leave at a moment's notice.

      What you are talking about is autonomous PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION which, only has use in dense urban environments where the costs aren't tremendously upside down.

      Since we are talking about PUBLIC transportation, then it should be a bus or van-sized vehicle and use a regular route.

    3. Re:Not the full picture... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      What's with the uncalled-for vitriol? I was just replying to the AC; he was the one who brought up the idea of non-individually-owned autonomous vehicles! All I was doing was pointing out that his assertion (that autonomous vehicles would reduce road use) was wrong.

      Individually-owned autonomous vehicles would either fail to change the amount of road use vs. the status quo (in the case where they're parked in the same location as the user all the time), or increase road use (in the case where the vehicle drops off the user and then returns home to park). Reducing road use is no a possibility.

      Of course, shared use -- like a bus -- is a different thing entirely, and not one that my previous post or the paragraphs above considered. And autonomous vehicles won't really change a damn thing about buses, since they could already be considered autonomous (from the perspective of the users). In other words, anything that could be done by an autonomous bus could already be done by the driver (and/or dispatcher) now.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  13. Missing The Big Picture... by magusxxx · · Score: 1

    Rural roads will be abandoned...Rural land, especially family farms, will lose value...Family farms and rural housing will sell for much less due to poor access...Corporate entities buy the land and make a large farm or put up a factory..."This is good for Iowa. So, as the head of the Iowa Department of Transportation, I'll make sure these abandoned roads get as much money as possible to put them back up into working order." ---- Lets see the roads in question on a map, who owns the land next to them, and who made offers to buy the adjacent land before this announcement was made.

    --
    Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
    1. Re:Missing The Big Picture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are mistaken. I live in Iowa. You can currently see a good number of "Stop Eminent Domain Abuse" signs while driving down the highways. What's going on are projects to widen roads and build new access roads around towns which may be unnecessary, and the "family farms and rural housing" you seem so eager to protect in your post above are actually being attacked in efforts to widen/create these roads. Is what's good for the goose, good for the gander?

    2. Re:Missing The Big Picture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Is what's good for the goose, good for the gander?

      Only if you adhere to outdated gender roles, you insensitive clod.

    3. Re:Missing The Big Picture... by magusxxx · · Score: 1

      I'm not mistaken, and I do live in Iowa. It has been the continual policy of Governor Branstad to give money to the largest corporate donators, not the largest group of Iowa citizens. Take a look at where road money has been spent during his current and previous terms. Then get back to me.

      --
      Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
    4. Re:Missing The Big Picture... by ITRambo · · Score: 1

      Branstad will be long gone when the proposed no-longer-supported roads ran into disarray. He'll go down as a governor that tamed costs while leaving the upcoming mess to a future governor. Gravel rural road along with decrepit asphalt pot-hole laced local roads suck big time. This is what will happen if the high quality concrete highway system in Iowa is allowed to degrade where they aren't deemed "important". I''d fight to prevent this as you don't want Iowa to head down any path that leads to Illinois style governance and nasty local and county road systems.

    5. Re:Missing The Big Picture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silly goose.

  14. politics is local by buddyglass · · Score: 1

    Specific areas that are experiencing population and/or economic growth will probably still need new roads, even if the rest of Iowa doesn't.

  15. We'll take them by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3

    Washington State could use a few more roads... Or rather, we really need some more lanes on our jammed inner corridors, particularly around the I-5 and I-405 corridors in the greater Seattle area. Our WS-DOT is infatuated with massive projects that cost billions but won't substantially reduce congestion. They're putting an expensive new tolling system on 405's commuter lane that will dynamically increase tolls in response to increases traffic so that it stays clear for busses, and 3/4 of the revenue is going to a private company in another state. Of course, that's actually going to make the normal 405 traffic *worse*, because they're simply pushing the traffic into the normal lanes. And of course, the Seattle Convention Center was built over the main freeway (I-5), limiting future lane expansion. Hey, why would we ever need more than two lanes on the only freeway running through a major metropolis, right?

    The article mentions Washington State without pointing out the current traffic problems. The traffic in the greater Seattle region is pretty horrible, and there are few practical options other than using a car to get from point to point for most people. The common refrain as to why we didn't build those lanes before is that "they'll just fill up as more people move in, so why bother?", or "You can't build your way out of congestion", with the apparent solution being that we're all supposed to live in downtown high-rises in some urban planning utopia. Well what do we say now? As it turns out, traffic apparently has a peak, because our population is peaking. Who'd have figured?

    Do I sound bitter? I try not to be, because I love this area, but the leadership at DOT tends to grate on me at times when I'm stuck in a freeway-shaped parking lot, and I think about the years in Washington State when we actually had a budget surplus and didn't invest in our infrastructure at that time.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    1. Re:We'll take them by Ichijo · · Score: 0

      They're putting an expensive new tolling system on 405's commuter lane that will dynamically increase tolls in response to increases traffic so that it stays clear for busses... Of course, that's actually going to make the normal 405 traffic *worse*, because they're simply pushing the traffic into the normal lanes.

      That's most definitely false, and here is proof:

      On the S.R. 91 Express Lanes, vehicle throughput during the most congested hours exceeds 1,600 vehicles per lane per hour on the priced lanes, while the adjacent free lanes carry only about 800 vehicles per lane per hour.

      So as you can see, the express lanes move twice the auto traffic as the regular lanes, not less.

      No, Washington doesn't need more lanes on the 405 at this time. You only need to manage the existing lanes better.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    2. Re:We'll take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More lanes typically don't relieve congestion. Once you have 3, the 4th lane is rather noneffective in scenarios that cause the problem.

      If that magical 2nd or 3rd lane comprised of only people that would never slow down when seeing other cars slow down, and people who are in the slow lanes would never change lanes into less effected lanes, then adding lanes would increase throughput in a reasonable manner.

      A 40% slowdown in one lane translates to a 40% slowdown in all lanes. That means if a lane could clear 20 cars a minute, it would only clear 12 cars a minute. Four lanes clearing 80 cars a minute would only clear 48 cars a minute. Adding a lane would only add 12 cars a minute, which would bring the total up to 60, still slower than 80.

      Adding lanes doesn't scale, because each additional lane you add is effected by the problem (congestion), you are adding more problems with the more capacity.

      Each additional lane provides more opportunities to change lanes. Changing lanes is a primary contributor to people (behind the lane changers) tapping their brakes. As each car behind adds an appropriate safety buffer of tapping their brakes just a little bit longer, eventually a slowdown builds. So adding lanes can even decrease the liklihood of good throughput.

      I live in Houston, TX. We had a great freeway system overall, but we expanded one portion of it to include more roads (an extra spur with 3 lanes both ways). The merging of that freeway to the existing freeways was subject to literally more a billion dollars. The merge point was widened to eight lanes in that direction. It's currently one of the worst parts to drive through. People leaving on the two rightmost exit lanes congest one side of the freeway, which congests the lane next to them (people like to zoom past others waiting patiently and cut in at the last minute), which congests the lane next to that (people who feel that technique of zooming past should include zooming past the people who are zooming past the people and cutting across two lanes if they can). Which slows down the rest of the freeway. Even the lefttmost lane drops from 70 MPH to about 45 MPH on a good day.

      The real solution is to remove 30% of the cars by enforcing minimum limits on the number of occupants. That's why busses are so critical to mass transport, they typically remove 20 to 30 times the number of cars needed to support the same riders. Light rail removes even more. Yes there are times when both are underutilized, but we are not solving the problems of driving on empty roads, we are solving the problems of driving on congested roads. We need to fix the congestion, not give us more road to be congested.

      Two lanes each direction on a road make sense, because without the other all traffic stops. A five lane (center turn lane) makes sense, because the middle can remove the most common kind of congestion. A seven lane road is (three both directions and a middle turn lane) is marginally better; but, it is obvious to me that once you go above that, you spend a lot of money for very little return.

    3. Re:We'll take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, Washington doesn't need more lanes on the 405 at this time. You only need to manage the existing lanes better.

      Said by someone who has clearly never commuted on 405.

    4. Re:We'll take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I know this answer doesn't work for everyone, but as a Seattlite too, my suggestion is to ride the bus, ride the light link, or get a bike. If you do live outside of an area where this is feasible, then encourage others to do so, because the fewer people on the roads in single loaded cars, the better it is for all of us. Lower costs, less traffic, lower pollution, everyone wins. The other reason why Seattle's traffic sucks so much is that we don't want to mess up our beautiful lakes, so no new bridges get built. You have a choice, a reduced single car commute, or maintaining the beauty of the region that you seem to love.

      As a side note, my 4.5 mile (one way) commute to work on a bike burns over 2000 calories a week and is typically faster than getting home in a car in the afternoon. No need to spend time at a gym and added time by not sitting in traffic.

    5. Re:We'll take them by thrig · · Score: 1

      No, Washington could use fewer roads. Seattle in particular has blown the "bridging the gap" funds on mostly making the Mercer mess that much more a horrible stroad, and with WSDOT stuck in pave-like-it's-1959 mode despite construction costs increasing faster than inflation (yeah, maintenance, how about that?) car sitters have the enviable joy of higher taxes--at least they're hitting you with a gas tax increase, instead of the Federal method of pretending that all is well while stealing from the General fund to keep the utterly broken Highway Trust Fund seemingly solvent. Prediction: induced demand will destroy the short-term benefit of any new pavement they might slap down, leaving you once again stuck in congestion, though now with a higher maintenance bill due to all those new roads. Derp! The long future: look to Iowa.

      Otherwise, you do sound bitter. Maybe try walking more, or taking the bus? All that stress from road rage really isn't healthy.

    6. Re:We'll take them by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      So you want everybody to be able to live in a suburban house with a yard and a fence/garage but you also want to have fast and easy access to the city? Sorry but adding lanes isn't the solution. If you want city life, live in the city. If you want to live in the country, there are going to be consequences/compromises and first and foremost is the commute.

      What Seattle has needed for ages and what finally is starting to move forward is a rail system. 12 lane highways won't solve our problems, what will solve our problem is true high volume transit solutions. That's what every other large city has done. New York doesn't keep moving thanks to megahighway or more roads, it operates because of rail. All of the cities that really operate efficiently rely on subways and rail. Los Angeles took an automobile focused approach and its result is sprawl where you can drive for nearly 5 hours and not get out of the city. Every city around the world that I've been to of substantial size that has an efficient transit system relies on rail as a backbone.

    7. Re:We'll take them by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Please elaborate.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    8. Re:We'll take them by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      I used to ride my bike when I lived close enough to work, which was fantastic. But when you change jobs and you now have a 20 mile commute, it's not quite as practical. Besides which, Seattle doesn't exactly have wonderful year-round biking weather. Do you ride in the winter as well? If so, bravo, but that's not really practical for everyone either.

      The pollution issue wouldn't be as much of a factor if we make the switch to electric commuter vehicles. WA is the perfect state to do this, since most of our power is from green hydro. I'm pretty sure my next car is going to be electric, as I almost never have to drive more than 200 miles at a stretch.

      The bridges... yep, I'd agree we could probably use a third one. Going to be a tough sell nowadays though, as there are no obvious corridors to use, at least to my knowledge.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    9. Re:We'll take them by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Just for the record, I live out in the outer suburbs (the "Eastside" in Seattle parlance, meaning east of Lake Washington that separates us from Seattle) and I work there as well. My jobs have ranged from zero freeway travel to half an hour of freeway travel, but I've *never* actually worked in the city itself. You can't always live right next to where you work. When I did, I really enjoyed biking to work.

      Seattle doesn't need 12 lane freeways. But we need better than two or three lane freeways. There's a balance to be struck, but we've neither invested enough in mass transit OR enough lanes. I'm not asking for mega-highways here, but nothing has been done in terms of adding capacity for a very long time. An efficient mass transit system would be fantastic, but we don't have that either. A friend of mine tried taking the bus to work, and it tripled his commute time. That's a hell of a price to pay.

      People always get caught up in this "rail vs roads" issue. I'm fine with adding rail/subway over time, but it's never going to replace roads in all cases. I don't think some moderate expansion of the most congested areas of traffic is being unreasonable.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  16. the real admission is peak driving. by nimbius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    According to TFA 'peak driving' happened in 2004. more than a decade later states are waking up to empty highways. I think this is happening for a few reasons:

    intractable recession: The US, in general, is a declining superpower and its starting to show. our skin-and-bones transportation budget, crumbling bridges, and pothole ridden highways are so common as to be a feature. A decade of intentional federal gridlock by republicans clammouring for austerity measures in the face of a housing market crisis and educational loan crisis didnt help. and a decade prior our zeal to fight the war without end amen depleated a lot of our reserves from the clinton adminstration that could have been used to shore up what 60 years ago was a mark of american achievement...namely our highway infrastructure.

    Driving sucks: Millenials like myself hate driving. car companies assumed it was their cars, and raced to put cellphones and wifi computers in our cars hoping we would buy them all up, only to realize we're crippled by inexorable college debt and newfound levels of unaffordable housing. regular maintenance and gas, insurance and most importantly our general penchant for unemployment after the housing decline means we arent really interested in a car. if we get one, it will be a beater from a used lot. we're also mostly service sector employees, or we work from home because OAP's and boomers turned our economy into a giant mechanical turk. Combine this with our urban brethren and we have everything from groceries to the latest blu-ray delivered to us through the mail. we dont shop strip malls, we just buy what you ask for off the list you make online.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot

      Axes: now on sale at Home Depot, 25 percent off

    2. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...we just buy what you ask for off the list you make online.

      Good thing you don't need roads for your Amazon deliveries. :)

    3. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Millenials like myself hate driving... we're crippled by inexorable college debt and newfound levels of unaffordable housing. regular maintenance and gas, insurance and most importantly our general penchant for unemployment after the housing decline means we arent really interested in a car. if we get one, it will be a beater from a used lot

      These are reasons why you cannot afford a car. But they don't explain a hatred for driving. If you indeed hate driving, I'd love to hear real reasons why.

    4. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      According to TFA 'peak driving' happened in 2004. more than a decade later states are waking up to empty highways. I think this is happening for a few reasons:

      intractable recession:

      The US, in general, is a declining superpower and its starting to show.

      Driving sucks:

      Apparently Millenials are way ahead on one thing though. It used to take people 6o years or more to get that bitter.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    5. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by King_TJ · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think these points contribute to the problem, but there's a lot to consider here.

      For starters, we're talking about Iowa in this story. Iowa isn't exactly one of the states people flock to in droves to find employment. Don't get me wrong here... I have no grudge against Iowa. I think it just happens to be like other Midwestern states where except for a couple of major cities, it's primarily farm land and rural areas, where most of the car traffic is on interstates, traveling through the state to a destination elsewhere. It's quite possible they're just taking a good look at the situation and saying, "Hey... We could do drivers a favor by improving the quality of the roads that really matter, while just abandoning some of the lightly traveled alternate routes instead of wasting road money maintaining them."

      Out here in the metro DC area, by contrast? Our roads are jam packed with traffic at seemingly all hours -- and that's despite having a pretty extensive light rail and commuter train system in place, linked to an extensive bus system, plus various options like rental bicycles.

      Overall, I think it's short-sighted to write off the highway and road infrastructure as less important since "today's generation hates driving and can't afford decent cars anyway". (Not saying you did that in your post, but commenting in general here.) I think soon enough, we're going to see self-driving vehicles becoming commonplace. And that, in turn, is going to change a lot of things about transportation. (EG. If the car drives itself and knows how to safely get around, you no longer have to worry if it's "ok to let your friend borrow your car" over concerns he/she might wreck it.) So it'll lead to a lot more sharing of vehicles. People will buy one as more of an investment than a "huge but unfortunately necessary expense", as they make money using it to give other people rides when they're not using it themselves.

    6. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Millenials like myself hate everything.

      FTFY.

    7. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by operagost · · Score: 1

      You're really good at blaming everyone else for your failures. That's one thing your generation is good at, for sure.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    8. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A healthy used car market drives a new car market as resale value increases and makes it easier for new buyers to afford a vehicle.
       
      My (totally anecdotal) experience is that the used car market is in decline as I see less and less used lots and fewer cars on the lots that I still see in business. I believe Cash For Clunkers helped this trend a bit. Maybe the owner to owner sales have increased and the old used car lot model is on the way out. I really don't know.

    9. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Don't get me wrong here... I have no grudge against Iowa. I think it just happens to be like other Midwestern states where except for a couple of major cities, it's primarily farm land and rural areas, where most of the car traffic is on interstates, traveling through the state to a destination elsewhere.

      FYI, every state is like that, except maybe for Alaska (because there aren't many roads) and Hawaii (because there aren't any other states to drive to).

      Every other state, including Maryland and Virginia (which I use as examples because you mentioned the metro DC area) are primarily farm and rural areas. Sure, the I-95 corridor might be crowded, but you also have to consider the parts of the states east of Chesapeake Bay or west of I-81.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    10. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by russotto · · Score: 1

      Apparently Millenials are way ahead on one thing though. It used to take people 6o years or more to get that bitter.

      No, they're behind on that. Gen X was bitter from at least age 11 and remain that way today.

      Anyway, TFA is about Iowa. Maybe Iowa doesn't need so many roads (and railroads, note they were included in his statement). Other places, places where a lot of people live, we need every road we have and then some. That's large chunks of the Eastern seaboard and much of the West Coast for starters.

    11. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by dasunt · · Score: 1

      intractable recession: The US, in general, is a declining superpower and its starting to show. our skin-and-bones transportation budget, crumbling bridges, and pothole ridden highways are so common as to be a feature. A decade of intentional federal gridlock by republicans clammouring for austerity measures in the face of a housing market crisis and educational loan crisis didnt help. and a decade prior our zeal to fight the war without end amen depleated a lot of our reserves from the clinton adminstration that could have been used to shore up what 60 years ago was a mark of american achievement...namely our highway infrastructure.

      Actually, the problem isn't so much recession as it is a lack of economic growth. Just being out of a recession isn't enough. We can't afford the roads we're building unless the economy (and the tax revenues) grow at a good rate.

      It's a dirty little secret, but our transportation budgets aren't adding up. To oversimplify: Every time we extend infrastructure, we add two drains on budgets. The first is depreciation - basically a way of budgeting for the cost of replacement years down the road. The second is maintenance - budgeting to repair the infrastructure. It's easy to ignore depreciation and kick the can down the road. And it's easy to skimp on maintenance (especially if the results won't be too bad before the next election cycle). Which means we end up building infrastructure where the tax revenues can't adequately fund the ongoing costs of the infrastructure once we remove the other necessary ongoing costs of an expansion (city services such as police & fire, etc).

      What's worse is our ongoing style of expansion is frequently fault intolerant. Say you put in a big box store such as Walmart. Big box stores, as a general rule, aren't the best producers of tax revenue per square foot. You're frequently better off with a dense commercial or residential development instead - a tall apartment building, or a bunch of small stores. So already, when you add a big box store, it's not the best bang for the buck. And those big box stores tend to require their own infrastructure - new intersections, sometimes new roads, etc - since they are frequently built on the edge of development. But what's worse is if the big box store goes under - it's hard to find another tenant due to the size of the structure.

      If you want to read more about this, I'd recommend either the Strong Towns website, or the American Conservative. The latter may seem odd, since walkable, liveable communities is frequently seen as a liberal idea, but there's a strong fiscal argument for New Urbanism.

    12. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greetings, fucktard!

    13. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Connecticut is one big suburb.

      Most of the states that 'BostiYorkDCadelphia' sit on are mostly suburb.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Car dealers are parasites and thieves (it's their business model!), Craigslist is the only place to buy/sell a car.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    15. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by russotto · · Score: 2

      To oversimplify: Every time we extend infrastructure, we add two drains on budgets. The first is depreciation - basically a way of budgeting for the cost of replacement years down the road.

      Depreciation is a way of accouting for the initial cost, not the cost of replacement. Counting both the initial expenditure and depreciation is double-counting.

      Say you put in a big box store such as Walmart. Big box stores, as a general rule, aren't the best producers of tax revenue per square foot. You're frequently better off with a dense commercial or residential development instead - a tall apartment building, or a bunch of small stores.

      Sure, if you count only revenue and not expenses. But to a locality, a residential development is absolutely the most expensive. More residents mean more need for police, schools, and other amenities. Fire department too; a big dense apartment building is the worst. And it's these costs which eat up local budgets.

    16. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just revisited DC's light rail system after not seeing it for ten years.

      You've let it rot. When I first saw it, it was an engineering marvel. Sure, it could use a bit of polish back then to make it pretty and clean, but it was completely awesome. Now it's still an engineering marvel, but it looks like it didn't receive any care over the last ten years that wasn't required to keep it from shutting down.

      I've had the tunnels leak on me, there was water on the less traveled floors (like to the handicapped elevators). Many places have only one escalator for the direction of travel, and often that escalator is not working. The trains have had the carpets worn down to the foundation. The chairs near the car entrance are so worn and soiled they look like a brownish shade of whatever color they were before.

      The only thing they have scaled appropriately is the number of automated payment systems, but those systems are still working the same dumb-as-dirt routines. If you are one person trying to buy week passes for three, you have to make six credit card transactions at two different stations. (One station to buy the pass cards, which can only be sold one transaction at a time, and One station to add the week pass to the card, which can only be sold one transaction at a time).

    17. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by swillden · · Score: 1

      our general penchant for unemployment

      You you prefer unemployment? I don't think penchant is the word you wanted. It does means something like "tendency", but with strong overtones of preference.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    18. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Most of the states that 'BostiYorkDCadelphia' sit on are mostly suburb.

      MA maybe, but NY MD VA PA are overall pretty sparsely populated.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    19. Re: the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other drivers.

    20. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You hate driving, don't want to leave the city, and want Amazon to deliver to your door. What do you call a place that you don't leave?

      Yep, a jail cell.

      It is your loss that you don't go out and see stuff than the four walls of your apartment. There are a lot of nice places to go. Try RV-ing, perhaps? Go see real things, go camping. These are not expensive things to do. You can buy a tent that is resistant to rain for under $50 bucks. Cloistering yourself just means you are surrendering to the corruption that is going on.

      Start getting politically involved. Want to see thing stop sucking and our birthright not ceded over to China? Go vote, maybe even throw your hat into the ring. Whining on Facebook or sharing memes don't count. Put the effort where it counts.

      I thank $DEITY that all people of that generation are not whiny little slugs that want to hide in their overpriced apartments for the rest of their life. I am glad for those who hold military service, vote, actively recruit, go out to renaissance faires, buy unimproved land and homestead, travel, and actually go out and do stuff. Roads are here for a reason, and there is something nice about going to small town festivals that you can't get from staring at a computer screen.

      Cloistoring yourself in your apartment just means that someone will just raise the rent so high, that you now have to live with roommates... then when the next recession hits, you will be whining about life on the street.

      As for driving sucking... Driving -in cities- sucks. Driving on roads where you are not in a parking lot and actually can go the speed limit is a completely different ball game.

      Also, just remember... if things get so bad the food trucks don't keep the Starbucks and other places stocked, a city will start rioting in 24 to 48 hours as people think they are starving, so will go full Donner party.

      tl;dr, enjoy life in your apartment. By inaction and whining, it just means that the next recession means you will be having more people in the apartment, or fighting for a plug with another guy for your latest gen iDevice in a Salvation Army shelter.

    21. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      The real issue doesn't have anything to do with roads. The real issue is that a government official has openly admitted that it probably doesn't make sense that his bureau should get more money. If you've ever worked in government you know what an earth-shaking admission that is. It's like Steve Jobs saying his products don't really need rounded corners.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    22. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by fnj · · Score: 1

      Only eastern Massachusetts is densely populated. The Berkshires are not.

    23. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Have you ever been to any of those states? Drive on I80 through PA and tell us how suburban it is. Or I87 (north of I84) through NY up to Canada. Or I90 across NY.

    24. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      Maryland is 5th in population density.

    25. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps. The one thing you will find at a car dealership that you likely won't find from a private owner is a real warranty. I'd have a hard time putting any real money into a car that is a daily runner that doesn't come with at least a bit of a safety net. I wouldn't care as much if it were a project car as long as it made it to my house but the kinds of people who buy and sell project vehicles have a leg up on Joe Sixpack looking for a beater with good gas mileage.

    26. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by dasunt · · Score: 1

      Depreciation is a way of accouting for the initial cost, not the cost of replacement. Counting both the initial expenditure and depreciation is double-counting.

      Perhaps I'm using the wrong term, but there needs to be a budget for replacement cost down the road. This isn't the same as the initial cost.

      But to a locality, a residential development is absolutely the most expensive. More residents mean more need for police, schools, and other amenities. Fire department too; a big dense apartment building is the worst. And it's these costs which eat up local budgets.

      What's a bigger cost? 100 residents in an apartment building? Or 50 residents spread out among 40 houses? Now obviously those houses collectively have a higher property value (and thus more revenue) than apartments, but once density drops enough, the increased value doesn't make up for the increased costs.

    27. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only good parts of Pennsylvania are the parts that don't have people. Yinzers and Filthidelians? Thank you but no... just no.

    28. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Anyway, TFA is about Iowa. Maybe Iowa doesn't need so many roads (and railroads, note they were included in his statement).

      I kinda wonder how they get those crops to market? And if railroads are somehow too expensive for states to maintain, we have really hit rock bottom..

      Other places, places where a lot of people live, we need every road we have and then some. That's large chunks of the Eastern seaboard and much of the West Coast for starters.

      Living in the the ridge and valley section of Pennsylvania, we have a lot of roads, but yeah, gotta agree that unless we all start flying, we gotta have pretty much every road we have. You can live 5 miles by direct distance form the neighboring town, but it might take 20 to drive there, once you cross a mountain range and a couple rivers.

      Twisty turny, but one of the most beautiful areas on earth.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    29. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Because it's a small state that contains Baltimore and a bunch of the DC population. Outside of those areas it has much lower density. Perhaps "overall" wasn't the best choice of words, but averaging the density of a whole state with dense cities gives the impression of overall high density while it is actually very heterogeneous.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    30. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1

      There are other reasons why driving sucks. And my friends share my sentiments.

      Truck traffic Waaaay too many tractor trailers on the highways. Their size and payloads keep increasing and the trailers are so big that they badly obscure the view. More than once I missed an exit because the tall trailer in front of me was blocking the sign, and I wasn't that close to the trailer. There is nothing worse than getting stuck behind a cluster of slow trailers struggling to get up a hill.

      Construction zones Waaaay too many work zones. We don't have four lane highways, we have single lane bottlenecks. They take much of the joy out of travel. Our highway infrastructure is not designed for longetivity, it is designed to perpetuate the public unions in charge of maintaining the highways. That means compromised construction. Visit other developed countries like Germany to see a stark contrast of how much better their highways are built. The last twenty years I have not planned any travel during construction season because the travel experience is too awful.

      Traffic Density Trucks notwithstanding, there is too much traffic on the highways. There are enough idiot drivers that it is not safe. Drivers using their palm devices or phones, cars cutting in front of me too close, people cruising in the passing lanes, cars cruising side by side at nearly the same speed with no way to pass them. I'm not a fan of fender benders and the probability is too great on the highways.

      The View What do you see from a highway? Oh look more concrete roads. More trees (or desert or flatlands). More billboards. Yawn.

      If I HAVE to travel, frankly I prefer the back roads or Amtrak (I refuse to use air travel for personal vacation). The view is much nicer, the traffic is much less dense, and you see many things you will never see from a highway. It is just as slow as the highway.

      --
      Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
    31. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      It is indeed a small state, and because of that, the area taken up by people who live within the environs of Baltimore and DC is a sizable fraction of the state's entire land area. It's not as high a fraction as New Jersey or Rhode Island, but it's not in the same league as Virginia or Pennsylvania.

      I still don't know what you mean by "overall sparsely populated." I wouldn't be surprised if you could come up with some formula to divide New England and the Mid-Atlantic into "MA, CT, NJ, RI" and "NY, MD, VA, PA." I do, however, assert that any such formula would be contrived.

      And now I feel silly for arguing a bit of worthless pedantry on the internet

    32. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by chihowa · · Score: 1

      I wasn't comparing parts of the east coast to other parts. I only singled out the states I did because the post I responded to mentioned 'BostiYorkDCadelphia'.

      Most of the US is largely unoccupied and I was trying to argue that even the relatively densely populated east coast isn't a continuous suburb but has huge amounts of unoccupied land. The poster above the one I responded to was saying basically the same thing. I think the conversation got derailed at some point.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    33. Re:the real admission is peak driving. by russotto · · Score: 1

      What's a bigger cost? 100 residents in an apartment building? Or 50 residents spread out among 40 houses?

      For schools, the apartment building (assuming same demographics of residents, which is unlikely; there's a reason municipalities love 55+ developments). For police, the apartment building again. For fire, probably the apartment building but I'm less sure of that.

  17. Kansas has the same problem by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In these flat agricultural states, a vast network of farm roads have been built over the years. The hallmark of over-roaded areas is the use of four-digit state route numbers in places that are mostly rural. Now that family farms are consolidating into large agribusiness operations, fewer access points are needed. Meanwhile, the cities need more roads and maintenance, so these states needed to reprioritize.

    1. Re:Kansas has the same problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Farms became bigger by a factor of 1000 at least over the past 150 years or so. Therefore less rural roads are required. This isn't rocket science.

  18. Re:Rails Roads by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Informative

    Uh rail roads are far from dead. In fact many rail roads are at capacity, or are running dangerously over capacity. The problem is they've torn up so many existing lines because they weren't needed at one point, now they're needed and they don't want to lay the track for it. You also seem to have forgotten that the points where rail can be laid as a distribution point have changed. Those years you're talking about are when rail or horse traffic were the only real ways to get around.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  19. Not the first time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think this is the first time this kind of thing has happened, like so many things there is a cycle. In my own area I think that cycle last peaked in the 50s/60s, when they abandoned about a dozen hard to maintain bridges/roads. It definitely makes sense to abandon seldom used/hard to maintain roads so that the resources can be transferred to others. But as others have noted it is something that has to be done in a case by case basis, some roads may see little use but already have homes or properties which would be landlocked if the road was abandoned and hence cannot be abandoned. However in a state like Iowa there are probably a lot of cases where a farmer owns on both sides of a stretch of road and would love to be able to add a few acres of farmland by plowing up the road.

  20. Licensing barriers by tepples · · Score: 1

    Licensing barriers: Nowadays, in many states, it takes 50 hours of driving on a learner's permit, supervised by a licensed driver 25 years of age or older. Indiana in the United States requires 50; some states in Australia require 120. With fewer people already driving, new drivers are finding it harder to find another suitable licensed driver with the time to supervise their driving. Some have resorted to paying $50 per hour for a driving instructor, and few recent graduates can afford $2,500 to $6,000 worth of lessons (source) on top of the price of a used car, fuel, and high-risk insurance for new drivers.

    1. Re:Licensing barriers by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      You've mentioned that as if it's a problem in two different stories now, and I don't understand. All that requirement means is that the parent of the new 16-year-old driver certifies that they've let the kid drive around for 50 hours with the parent in the car when he had his learner's permit, which is a low bar to hurdle.

      Obviously, that's harder to deal with for an adult trying to get his driver's license, but the easy solution to that is simply to get the damn thing at 16 instead of waiting for no reason!

      What's the big deal?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:Licensing barriers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The 120hours are probably based on the assumption that you're *not* using a licensed driving instructor. Over here in Germany, you have no choice but to use a licensed driving instructor, but then 22 hours (a set number of which have to be at night, on the autobahn etc.) are sufficient to show up for the driving test.

    3. Re:Licensing barriers by tepples · · Score: 1

      The 120hours are probably based on the assumption that you're *not* using a licensed driving instructor.

      I've read that in some Australian states, drivers who complete 10 hours with a licensed instructor are given a one-time 20-hour bonus and thus need to complete only 100 actual hours of supervised practice driving instead of 120. But even $5,000 can still be cost prohibitive for adult learners.

    4. Re:Licensing barriers by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      My German Aunt took 3 years and well over 30,000 dm (this was some time ago) to get her license. She should not have gotten it. Terrible driver, even by American standards.

      She will stop in the middle of a left turn to argue with her sister about the route they are taking. Just forgets she is driving and goes single threaded on the discussion. Even worse now that she is very old.

      German cops could make a fortune following her around and ticketing all the drivers that flip her the bird.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Licensing barriers by tweak13 · · Score: 1

      It's an issue because it's an absurdly high requirement for training.

      It only takes 40 hours to get a goddamn private pilot license. And that 40 hours includes solo time.

  21. Re:It all depends.... on how stupid you are by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

    The cost is not zero.[...] You'll be flung off of your bike, and you'll end up face first on the crumbling remains of the sidewalk.[...]"

    Which is different from falling off your bike while riding across a paddock how? That an ambulance chasing low-life law firm might want you to pursue damages? Pursue your imaginary claim if you like - but beware that Holdem, Scoldem and Buggerem don't take you to court in a class action case on behalf of rate/tax payers for damages due to unnecessary government expenditures. Or just have you declared a vexatious litigant.

    You need to get some real exercise instead of lugging goal posts - the taxpayers have wasted too much money already paying damages for frivolous damages claims. No doubt you'd argue the case for laws against sharp corners on furniture and bad weather.

  22. 1st law of motion by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    Pave baby, pave!

  23. California by Goldsmith · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm a Californian. Nothing in this discussion makes any sense to me. The idea that you may not need more roads is... completely foreign. Do I need a visa to move to Iowa? It sounds great.

    1. Re:California by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      The idea that you may not need more roads is... completely foreign.

      Perhaps the hamburger analogy will help:

      Let's give everyone free McDonald's hamburgers. Let's put 10,000 hamburgers a day on a table in front of the Capitol (or wherever).

      What would happen? People would take and eat the hamburgers, and once word got out, all 10,000 hamburgers would be taken very quickly every day. We may thus infer that because people need food and they really seemed to like those burgers, McDonald's hamburgers are an important public good.

      A city planner might notice a problem: those 10,000 hamburgers just aren't enough. They get taken very early in the morning, so not everybody has a chance to get a hamburger. The obvious solution -- because burgers are a highly-valued public good -- is to provide more free burgers. So the city planner starts to provide 20,000 hamburgers a day.

      You can see where this is going. People start going out of their way to get the free hamburgers, and planning their day around that trip. The city has to keep providing more and more free burgers -- eventually millions a day -- to keep satisfying the demand for free hamburgers. The competing food markets crater, because who would pay $2/lb for apples when you can get as many free burgers as you want (although maybe you have to wait in a 30-minute line). Public health goes to hell, because everybody's eating six burgers a day. And yet, everybody likes their free burgers and the Hamburger Department is an untouchable political powerhouse. Proposals for a 10-cent hamburger fee to cover the huge costs of hamburger provision get shot down by public outrage.

      What's the problem here? The problem is that food is indeed a necessity, and yes, people seem to like McDonald's hamburgers -- but the fact that people will take free burgers does not prove that they are "highly valued" by the market. We are not seeing actual demand for burgers. We are seeing induced demand for a good which is being provided at artificially low prices.

      But for some reason, replace hamburgers with roads and everybody goes nuts.

      In short, the fact that a new lane or road immediately fills up with traffic does not "prove" that there was a high demand for that road -- it proves that people will use way too much of something that's free.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    2. Re:California by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

      My comment wasn't actually serious. It was intended to make fun of the cultural differences between California and Iowa.

      You're describing the "tragedy of the commons," a concept we understand very well in California right now because of the drought. Hamburgers work too, but we do have a giant blind spot when it comes to roads.

    3. Re:California by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking as a transplant from California to Iowa, basically infrastructure meets everyone's needs here - roads, electricity, land, bandwidth, and water is plentiful:

      Land: A 4000 square foot house with high end furnishings on an acre of land backing up to a forest within a nice neighborhood: $250K
      Water: In many neighborhoods that use community wells, usage is free -- cost of running pump and treatment equipment runs a flat $10/month regardless of usage
      Internet: 100 MBps unlimited for $10/month, if business is tied into university communications
      Roads: congestion is rare, most roads in urban areas have been repaved in the last 10 years
      Electricity: 5-9 cents per kWh

      Best part as a software developer is being able to charge the same rates as those in CA, and bank the difference.

    4. Re:California by laird · · Score: 1

      That whole analogy makes sense. People would eat your hypothetical free hamburgers because everyone needs to eat and has a choice of what to eat, and free food would displace paid-for food. But building more roads doesn't make people drive more, other than if the road fills a real need, because people aren't going to drive places they don't want to go just because there's a road there now. And people aren't going to drive on the new road because it's free, because nearly all roads are free, and because driving places you don't want to go has negative value.

      So your conclusion is exactly wrong - if a new road is built and it immediately fills up with traffic it means precisely that there was high demand for that road. If the were no demand for people to travel that route, it would be a new, empty road.

    5. Re:California by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      But building more roads doesn't make people drive more...

      Actually, yes, it does.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    6. Re:California by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idea that you need more roads is, in general, a fallacy. More roads -> more traffic -> "need" even more roads. It's a vicious circle. What we actually need almost everywhere is fewer roads, fewer parking spaces and more restrictions, which will lead to less traffic because it drives optimization of transport.

  24. Per Capita Driving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That per capita driving is going down doesn't mean that there are fewer cars on the roads, only that the rate of increase is smaller.

  25. Who knows the politics behind this by bangular · · Score: 1

    I doubt his comment can be taken at face value. This might be a ploy for more funding. Who knows, but I very highly doubt his statement was honest due to the number of very obvious issues.

  26. Iowa has more roads than you would believe. by gweeks · · Score: 2

    About time.

    Iowa has more roads than you would believe. Every mile on the mile except where pre-existing towns or rivers made it impossible there is a little gravel agricultural road.

    1. Re:Iowa has more roads than you would believe. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Iowa has more roads than you would believe. Every mile on the mile except where pre-existing towns or rivers made it impossible there is a little gravel agricultural road.

      That's a remnant of the WPA. Wisconsin (and to some extent, Illinois) are the same way. Class B highways every mile.

      Did you ever notice that the border foliage on the edges of the roads change when you hit state borders? That's also from the WPA days, when states ran their own "beautification" (and anti-erosion) measures. I learned this during my long-distance bicycling days. When all you have to look at for miles and miles are soybeans and corn, you tend to notice little things like road foliage. I finally asked some old dude who told me the story of the road crews that came through planting the foliage.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Iowa has more roads than you would believe. by Kalendraf · · Score: 1

      It's true that most of Iowa has a road grid. Here's an example from Story County which includes Ames:
      https://www.storycountyiowa.go...

      What's interesting to note on this map is the purple lines which represent some roads that were reclassified as Level B roads around 2006-2007 timeframe. Level B roads are minimum maintenance and typically include many dirt/earthen roads. Others may include a thin layer of gravel on top, but lack a complete foundation. In addition, some regular gravel or paved roads with a good foundation periodically get reclassified this way as well due to lack of use or need.

      AFAIK, the Level B designation is currently controlled at the county level, but the DoT could begin making recommendations for more roadways to be listed this way. This could give Iowa a relatively easy option for transitioning to fewer maintained roads by simply reclassifying more and more of the roads as Level B. Once redesignated, the DoT would stop performing regular maintenance on them. Many of the gravel roads may become seriously pot-holed over time, but they would still be drivable. Those that are seldom used might become overgrown. Some form of infrequent maintenance may still be required to address issues like erosion or washouts.

      For those locations that require these roads to access dwellings or fields, the owners or agencies they contract could perform some types of necessary maintenance. For example, snowplowing of the redesignated roads would still be needed to allow home access, but many rural land owners already own trucks or other farm machinery that can be fitted with plow-blades for clearing snow. The state could potentially offer some form of rebate program for the equipment, or tax-breaks based on the mileage of B-level roads from main road to dwelling. Either would be significantly cheaper for the state than continually maintaining tens of thousands of roads that see little to no use.

  27. Peak? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This summary seems to link two ideas (the amount of highways and per capita driving). However, the forces that are driving per capita driving may not have much to do with the need for highways. Urbanization, aging population, and a declining labor force participation rate (linked to aging population) give some people less reason to drive within cities. We still need a system to move goods between cities. Highways actually make the most fiscal sense to accomplish this task.

  28. Non-driver parent by tepples · · Score: 1

    You've mentioned that as if it's a problem

    It is a problem for my cousin.

    All that requirement means is that the parent of the new 16-year-old driver certifies that they've let the kid drive around for 50 hours with the parent in the car

    That's a crime if the parent is also a non-driver, and it's easier said than done if the parent lacks the money to pay for the classroom portion of driver's ed or the time and money to take the child out for practice driving afterward. My cousin tells me his father lacks the time.

    the easy solution to that is simply to get the damn thing at 16 instead of waiting for no reason!

    So should parents be held responsible for driver's education of their children in the same way that they are held responsible for the child getting to school and back? For example, should it be considered neglect on the parent's part to either A. not hold a driver's license or B. not take the child out for practice driving?

    1. Re:Non-driver parent by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So why didn't your uncle simply get his driver's license back when he was 16? They should have solved the problem in the previous generation!

      The only way this matters is if the percentage of people sharing your cousin's circumstances is large or increasing, and I see no reason to believe that's the case. It's not as if these requirements are new, after all.

      Furthermore, I suspect that in the vast majority of cases where the parent lacks a license, it's because the family lives somewhere like Manhattan where the child doesn't actually need one either.

      In other words, this is a non-issue that you only think is important because one of the tiny number of people who are affected by it happens to be somebody close to you.

      So should parents be held responsible for driver's education of their children in the same way that they are held responsible for the child getting to school and back? For example, should it be considered neglect on the parent's part to either A. not hold a driver's license or B. not take the child out for practice driving?

      No, I'm saying it's not the State's responsibility to let unqualified people have drivers' licenses just because their parents couldn't be bothered to teach them, or to subsidize their parents' fuck-up!

      And by the way, "resort[ing] to paying $50 per hour for a driving instructor" is a false dichotomy: just because your uncle can't/won't help, doesn't mean that's the only other choice. What about your aunt; can't he drive with her? What about your cousin's uncle (i.e., your dad)? What about over-25 family friends? What about a random neighbor, who is not an "instructor" and therefore probably would charge much less than $50/hour? What about you?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  29. Iowa Immigration Requirements by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1
    No special requirements

    You just have to be used to the Central Valley, without mountains within day-trip range, with incredible humidity in summer and cold, snowy winters.

    1. Re:Iowa Immigration Requirements by tomhath · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Regarding the mountains - realize that some parts of Iowa are so flat that on a clear day, a person with good eyesight can look out toward the horizon and see the back of his own head.

      Everyone I've known who grew up in Iowa and moved away wanted to move back, if that tells you anything

    2. Re:Iowa Immigration Requirements by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Everybody I know that grew up in Missouri or Kansas that has the job skills to get out has.

      We typically go back to visit in the spring of fall. Never in Winter or Summer.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  30. roads for access to fields, not homes by Chirs · · Score: 2

    I live in the Canadian prairies. Around here we have a whole grid of gravel roads (roughly every mile or so). These roads are not for providing access to homes, but rather for providing access to *fields*.

    Back in the day farms were a lot smaller than they are now. Since then there has been a lot of consolidation, so they could probably remove a bunch of roads going in one direction (north/south or east/west) but they'd have to leave the roads going the other direction to continue to provide access to the fields.

  31. Braess' Paradox at play? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Applying game theory to road networks, where drivers are local optimizing, but not necessarily reaching the global optimized network for traffic throughput, reducing the roads may actually increase efficiency of the Iowa road network. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27_paradox

  32. access to fields... by Chirs · · Score: 1

    If it's anything like around here, many of these roads could provide access to fields, not homes.

  33. Sounds like a lot of whining to me by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    more than a decade later states are waking up to empty highways.

    "Empty highways"? Even allowing that your statement includes hyperbole it doesn't fit with the fact that the US population is growing. Personally outside of some of the most rural parts of the US I've NEVER seen "empty highways". Most in fact seem to need more lanes than they have.

    The US, in general, is a declining superpower and its starting to show.

    Spare me. People have been spouting this nonsense as a political meme for most of my life. Every out of power politician declares that "we need to make america great again", thereby implying that somehow the country isn't great. They then follow it up by declaring the US to be "the greatest country in the world". So which is it? The US has the largest economy, the largest military, leads the world in scientific research, and does so with just 5% of the world's population. Declining? I've been around for a half century and can't say I see the evidence. Things are better in the US than when I was born. Just because some other countries have been doing well (China etc) doesn't mean things are going in the shitter here.

    our skin-and-bones transportation budget, crumbling bridges, and pothole ridden highways are so common as to be a feature.

    Any shortfalls can be solved overnight by simply reallocating some of the ludicrous amount of money we spend on our military to domestic infrastructure. More money could be saved by going to a single payer health care system like most of the rest of the civilized world. We have the money but our leaders have chosen to spend it poorly. We like to pretend we need to spend more on our military than the next 17 largest countries combined. We like to pretend that socialized medicine is somehow evil when in fact avoiding it is the unethical thing to do. Not to mention that we already have it (Medicare) and are in denial about it.

    Millenials like myself hate driving.

    Better get over that. Not being snarky, it's just a reality of living in most parts of the US. Most of the country is simply not accessible without a car and that isn't going to change anytime soon. You don't have to love to drive but it's going to be a part of your life most likely whether you like it or not.

    we're crippled by inexorable college debt and newfound levels of unaffordable housing. regular maintenance and gas, insurance and most importantly our general penchant for unemployment after the housing decline means we arent really interested in a car.

    That sounds like a lot of excuses to me. Adjusted for inflation gas is cheaper now than it was when I was a child. You can avoid a lot of college debt by not going to expensive private colleges you cannot afford. Spend a year or two at a community college and finish up at your state college. You can get a great education and not be in the poor house. Insurance? You can be covered by your parents until you are 26. If you can't get a job by then with unemployment at 5% then you probably are doing something wrong.

    Other generations have had it harder than you. Would you have preferred to grow up during the Great Depression or WWII? How about as a minority 50 or even 25 years ago? I assure you things were harder then.

    1. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

      I'm just sitting back eating popcorn, curious to see what generation z will be like. "Can you believe it took 14 minutes to 3d print my jetpack? Fuck the man, that is bullshit."

    2. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Personally outside of some of the most rural parts of the US I've NEVER seen "empty highways".

      Mostly empty highways then. Can you name one that moves even half of its daily capacity (peak hour capacity times 24)? Good luck! Ha ha!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    3. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      If any highway anywhere moves half of its peak capacity in a day, the transportation engineer responsible for it should be fired.

      They're not intended to move a constant vehicle flow. Rush hour is not an arbitrary phenomenon. It's come about because we structure our lives around visibility of the giant ball of fusing gas we orbit.

    4. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      If any highway anywhere moves half of its peak capacity in a day, the transportation engineer responsible for it should be fired.

      But doesn't a demand curve show a way to keep traffic demand, and therefore traffic flow, constant, even 24/7?

      And because the fiscally optimal amount of road is the amount where the marginal cost of adding a lane equals the marginal revenue from adding it (MC=MR), doesn't this prove that a nonzero amount of traffic congestion on an unpriced road is optimal?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    5. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      I agree entirely that the equilibrium point will have nonzero amount of traffic congestion at some times. I assert that it is less than half the time, though.

      Your first sentence is rubbish. Rhetorical questions only work when the answer is in favor of your claim. A demand curve doesn't "show a way" to keep traffic flow constant any more than it "shows a way" to solve any other perennial economics problem.

      One could certainly under some conditions manipulate demand into a constant flow, but those are merely thought experiments. There are toll roads that attempt to regulate their price based on the traffic in them, but they still can't spread traffic out constantly. You aren't going to pay people vast sums to incentivise driving in the middle of the night to keep your traffic flow constant. One could also reduce the lanes to zero. You'd have a constant flow of no cars, but that's also unhelpful.

      Now that I've knocked down some straw men, do you have something interesting to say?

    6. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      You aren't going to pay people vast sums to incentivise driving in the middle of the night to keep your traffic flow constant.

      Why would you need to? Just wait long enough without widening a freeway and eventually it will fill up 24/7. If you use express tolling to prevent traffic congestion, it will never get congested and therefore it will never need to be widened to eliminate traffic congestion, even though it's moving 100% of its daily capacity.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    7. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      Either I don't understand what you mean by "fill up," or what you mean by "24/7," or you're just trolling and I am falling for it.

      I took "fill up" (and previously "peak capacity") to mean "the most cars that can safely fit on this stretch of road simultaneously, while going the speed limit." I also took "24/7" to mean "all the time."

      If you wait long enough without widening the freeway, you will not see peak capacity maintained indefinitely. People aren't going to "fill up" the freeway at times when they don't have a reason to be on it.

    8. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      People aren't going to "fill up" the freeway at times when they don't have a reason to be on it.

      Your logic is circular. That's funny.

      Anyway, whether a freeway fills up depends on the capacity of the freeway and the number of people who want to take their cars on it at the same time. You don't seem to believe it, but this is always true, even in the middle of the night.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    9. Re:Sounds like a lot of whining to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's keep moving that goalpost!

  34. I would be too by bangular · · Score: 1

    I'm not a millennial, but I've definitely seen their struggle. I can attest that they have to work twice as hard for half what their parents had. I look at all the opportunities to prove myself I was given as a borderline gen-x before 9/11 and the financial crash and there's not a snowballs chance anyone would get that today.

    1. Re:I would be too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Do you think your parents were handed everything on a golden platter or some shit? My father and his father all worked in coal mines. My grandfather worked in steel mills. So no, the previous generations didn't have shit easier. Sure it might have been easier to get a job in a coal mine back then, but you also were far more likely to get killed at such a job.

      The bigger issue is, their parents refusing to kick their lazy asses out. Hey kid, pick up a shovel or a mop. It's a job anyone can do. There are PLENTY of jobs out there, just some white kids think they're too good for cleaning toilets, mopping floors, landscaping etc. Take an illegal immigrants job.

      Do some hard fucking work for a change.

      I say this as a millennial who is sick of these lazy bastards making those of us who have busted are balls to be successful in the world.

      Take a hint, you aren't entitled to shit.

    2. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not a millennial, but I've definitely seen their struggle. I can attest that they have to work twice as hard for half what their parents had. I look at all the opportunities to prove myself I was given as a borderline gen-x before 9/11 and the financial crash and there's not a snowballs chance anyone would get that today.

      Millenials are an abused generation - no doubt. Unfortunately, they were abused by well meaning people and their own parents, who thought they were were doing the right thing for them.

      I've worked with a lot of them, and usually in their first job after entering the workforce. This was when in their early 20's, they were just breaking free from their helicoptering parents, full of self esteem, and ready to show the world how its done right.

      The results in general were horrifying, to those older folks, and especially to these poor kids. Their carefully cultivated self esteem took a real hit after discovering that Facebook was not a job skill, that the older people were not their servants, and thos stupid old people actually knew more about computing and computers than they did, and that you don't get promoted to manager after 1 year, or get congratulations for coming in on time.

      The results were usually a huge crash and burn after reality hit them hard in the chops. Some became really depressed, and a fair number quit and moved back with mom and dad.

      And I don't blame it on them, but on the abuse they endured from parents and a society that refuesd to allow them to become adults.

      I can attest that they have to work twice as hard for half what their parents had.

      Yeah, my father and others who went through the depression had it so easy. No generation ever in the course of history has it as bad as these poor millennial do. My generation, it was laughably easy, the 70's was a great time of 100 percent employment for young people. And the money? I was rolling in it

      Sarcasm indeed, but ridiculous claims get ridiculed.

      Guess what. I worked really, really hard all my life. Early on I worked some menial jobs. Worked through junior high and high school. My parents both worked really hard, at a time when women were supposed to stay at home, my mother worked all her life. We knew how to work. I need a river cried for me. But I don't need nor want one.

      This still comes back to the unrealistic expectations these poor kids were inculcated with. Of the many millenials we hired, only one or two would ever come in early, or stay past five. Just as an example, one millenial we hired, had some work to get done for the next day for use in the biggest meeting of th year. At 10 till 5, he stopped working, told us his mom was waiting for him in the parking lot, and left us hanging. I had to complete his work that evening.

      And that is just one anecdote among many, not to mention the young lady unionjunior illustrator, who when someone would give her a job, she would come over to me and plead she was so busy. I took a job for two to help her, then found out her work overload was spending the day on Facebook - no doubt telling her friends how busy she was.

      Or the guy who went apeshit on me because I touched the screen of his computer. And actually I hadn't, I pointed at it, and he apparently thought fingerprints could jump. Ot the guy who insisted that all my discussions with him take place via texting.

      Many more anecdotes, but you get the gist of my experiences.. We did not have these experiences with the GenX'ers. There were better or worse workers, but no trend like with the millennials. All in all, its people on the bottom of the food chain thinking they can hand out the orders to the people they work for. Which is sadly enough, just how they were raised.

      This always result in howls ot outrage from the millenials, as they react in the manner of people who hold themselves in high esteem, yet have no real achievements. They get mad. I'll ge

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:I would be too by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 1

      So they made the exact same mistakes you did when you entered the workforce. Good to know.

    4. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      So they made the exact same mistakes you did when you entered the workforce. Good to know.

      I have no idea where you got that idea. The millenial attitude was quite rare when I entered the workforce. And no, never quit a job t move back home. And my self esteem is based upon achievements, not on my special snow-flakeyness.

      Only mistake I made was not starting retirement savings until about the second year I was working.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    5. Re:I would be too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This still comes back to the unrealistic expectations these poor kids were inculcated with. Of the many millenials we hired, only one or two would ever come in early, or stay past five.

      Really? Really? Those kids are probably wondering why you can't follow a simple schedule. Their employer told them to work 9 to 5, so that's what they're going to do unless they're told otherwise. It isn't always their first job, and while you may be divorced from the experience of working hourly, these days you stay after you're supposed to leave and your manager yells at you for chewing up the labor budget. That kind of shit sticks with you, especially when your parents failed to initiate you in unspoken rules of the working world like "We're going to tell you to work 9 to 5 but really, your ass belongs to us 24/7 and you should be happy we don't just chain you to the fucking desk."

      And don't pretend that only millennials do dumb shit like skip out ten minutes early when they've got time-sensitive shit left to do, or push their workload off on their co-workers so they can dick around on Facebook all day. I don't care how old they are, I don't want to hear about how backed-up someone is who's been chatting with their friends and relatives all day from their company e-mail address. It's like they think management isn't tracking their productivity, or that IT doesn't see everything they've been doing instead of what they're getting paid to do.

      I know it's fun and easy to take shots at "millennials" or "boomers" but let's face it: most people are just shitheads.

    6. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Really?

      Really

      Really?

      Really

      Those kids are probably wondering why you can't follow a simple schedule. Their employer told them to work 9 to 5, so that's what they're going to do unless they're told otherwise.

      These are people who are supposed to be professional. Professional peopla are paid to get a job finished, not to be working for the clock. They are not constrained to 8 to 5 like the non-exempt people

      It isn't always their first job,

      Every person I gave as an example was working at their first job.

      and while you may be divorced from the experience of working hourly, these days you stay after you're supposed to leave and your manager yells at you for chewing up the labor budget.

      As noted, these were professionals, and in the exempt category.

      That kind of shit sticks with you, especially when your parents failed to initiate you in unspoken rules of the working world like "We're going to tell you to work 9 to 5 but really, your ass belongs to us 24/7 and you should be happy we don't just chain you to the fucking desk."

      You have their attitude down pat. Congratulations.

      And don't pretend that only millennials do dumb shit like skip out ten minutes early when they've got time-sensitive shit left to do, or push their workload off on their co-workers so they can dick around on Facebook all day.

      I pretend nothing. I do have to say, you only get a few chances to diss the director. maybe two. He shows up at his meeting without his materials, and he's embarrassed in front of his peers. You want to be on facebook all day? Probably a nice room in the basement, and have all the time in the world. Pay sucks though

      I know it's fun and easy to take shots at "millennials" or "boomers" but let's face it: most people are just shitheads.

      All I can tell you is that of the millennials we hired, only two ever worked out. They have unrealistic expectations, and expect people to serve them. The older folks get their work done on time. The Gen X-ers we hired got theirs done on time, except for a few..

      But yeah every age group has a few slackers. It's just that at least in my experience, with the other groups it's an occasional thing finding a slacker. With the Millenials, it's a job strategy.

      This helicoptering parent, and unfinished adults is not a hypothetical thing. Colleges have been trying to fix the problem. The children have been trying to involve their parents in every decision, and the parents have been interjecting themselves into situations that a normal adult can easily decide. But they won''t allow it, and you can probably keep a child as a child until their 40's if you try hard enough

      And the great irony is that I do not find these kids at fault. But their parents need kept away from them so they can grow up. But what happens if you dare t broach the subject? Your accused of pucking on the kids. I'm not. I'm standing up for them. Sometimes making a child grow up when she or he is physically an adult seems mean, but how mean is it compared to crazy parens being so nice, so protective, and badly screwing the kids up?

      Having a problem with a room mate? Call mommy or daddy! They'll call the college president and fix that meanine in your room:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

      http://www.law.uh.edu/ihelg/mo...

      Here, Mommy calls to make certain the workplace is correct for her precious, the alarm bells go off, and the job offer is withdrawn.:

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    7. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Do you think your parents were handed everything on a golden platter or some shit?

      Actually, many do think just that.

      It's probably a matter of perspective. Among the people in my social group, we all lived in nice houses, drove new cars never went hungry, always had nice new clothes. Lots of activities for the children, sports, music lessens, camps for exposure to many things. It was like livin' the dream. When you grow up in that world, you tend to think that is the world.

      My son, who had a lot of advantages, even when we still made certain he had the experiences to become an adult, was shocked when he got out on his own. He is a good worker, but finding out that the money his parents had was not something that just automajically happened.

      Take a hint, you aren't entitled to shit.

      Look a couple posts above, the find the one I posted that got marked flamebait. The truth is not always popular.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    8. Re:I would be too by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      These are people who are supposed to be professional. Professional peopla are paid to get a job finished, not to be working for the clock.

      This is a scam, and it's disgusting to moralize about it. Employers hire with claims that working hours are (say) 9–5, which prospective employees factor into their compensation negotiation. When the employer reneges on working hours, demanding more time and effort, they're robbing their employees. It's not like it goes the other way around: Well, the job is done ahead of schedule! Everyone gets the rest of the day off, with pay! Nonsense, they just advance work that was planned for later. This is called "productivity".

      It may be naive to believe employers won't scam their employees into producing more than they agreed in negotiations, but it certainly shouldn't be framed as some kind of failing when people expect to have the terms of their employment honored.

    9. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      These are people who are supposed to be professional. Professional peopla are paid to get a job finished, not to be working for the clock.

      This is a scam, and it's disgusting to moralize about it.

      You do know the difference between exempt professionals and the rest of the workforce don't you? If you don't want to be a professional, you don't have to be.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    10. Re:I would be too by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      I want to be a professional and to not have my employer lie to me about their expectations. And I don't want to be chastised for defending my own interests in an economy heavily biased for my employer.

    11. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Yours and my definitions of professional, is light years apart.

      Tell me when you have a boss who knows the exact workflow, so she or he isn't enraging you by your definition of lying

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    12. Re:I would be too by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      Your definition of professional sounds remarkably like slavery.

    13. Re:I would be too by Morpf · · Score: 1

      A contract is two-sided. If one sides wishes to divert from the agreed-on terms I am sure the other side will be open for honest renegotiation so everything stays fair.

      Also working overtime is a sign of bad planning, which might be the workers or his managers fault. Either the worker agreed on deadlines he should not have accepted or the manager tried to put too much work on the worker. Yet it should have been noticed early enough and the time / work could have been renegotiated. This of course requires professionalism of both sides: Don't try to hide your errors and give a early enough notice, and listening to employers and accepting that errors _are_ happing, if you are told or not.

    14. Re:I would be too by Morpf · · Score: 1

      Also allow me to remark, that working overtime also is not necessarily a sign of professionalism, maybe even a sign of absence. I know how many hours I can work, before I am mentally exhausted and will introduce more errors / damage then benefit. As a professional thus I will insist staying below this threshold for the better of my employer and myself.

    15. Re:I would be too by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Oblig

      "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
      authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
      of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
      households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
      contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
      at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

      ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
      Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
      (1953)."

    16. Re:I would be too by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      If you would like to be a corporate slave and lapdog that's your choice. I don't care how you classify my employment, or what definitions you want to apply to the terms of my employment, because you aren't a party to them. I'm being paid for 40 hours of work a week between the specific times, if my boss wants more hours they need to apply for and be granted approval from their management, and then get me to agree to work those hours. In most cases I'll do it if the manager has jumped through all the right hoops because I'm a considerate person. But if I have plans that are important to me, or if the extra time doesn't seem to be justified I'll say no. They can cry and whine about it if they want, and if it really matters I'm sure it'll come up in a performance review. But I honestly don't give a damn, I know the company has no real loyalty to me and what matters to them is the money, and so I'll give them the same respect in kind. So if they want more, or different, hours then they'll need to pay up, and put up with getting a negative response on occasion.

    17. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Oblig

      "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority......

      True enough. There is a tendency for olde fartes to think that they were raised right and this new generation is the worst ever. It's like the people who say the family is under attack - These are things that have been said just about forever.

      Keep in mind that I note I did't have issues with the GenX'ers as a group. And I'm old enough to have been in the workplace for a while when they entered.

      This isn't with the kids per se'. It's with the overprotective parents that have stunted their emotional maturity.

      My problem is with those parents, not the product that they screwed up. Once these adult children are allowed to grow up, they will likely be okay, just robbed of several years of adulthood.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    18. Re:I would be too by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      If you would like to be a corporate slave and lapdog that's your choice.

      Corporate slave? I've retired on my terms 12 years early on what amounts to my work income.

      And yes, I did work hard for my employer for over 30 years. Was paid well, treated well, and respected. Got to go to interesting places, and meet interesting people and do interesting things. When slowdowns happened, I was retained. People who were smart and wouldn't do anything extra, well they got more time off when the slowdowns occurred. And I'm told it isn't easy getting a job when you are laid off, seems employers think that companies keep their valuable people, and terminate those who aren't so valuable.

      So much for slavery and being a lapdog. Good luck with your method.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  35. Blame, and Apologies by jabberw0k · · Score: 1

    Along with going around apologizing for other people's actions of decades or centuries ago, a.k.a. self-aggrandizement by convicting dead people in absentia of questionable crimes, with latent implications of lack of self-worth.

  36. same here by Chirs · · Score: 1

    I'm up in the Canadian prairies...farming country. We've got a 1-mile grid road system here too, and we could probably get rid of some of them as well.

  37. As an Iowan I don't agree by hackaxle · · Score: 2

    I've lived in Iowa all my life. I've lived in Northwest, Northeast and Southeast. I've traveled across the state many times and I can tell you- there is not an "excess" of highways. There is really only two major roads going East-West I-80 and US-HWY 20 and two North-South I-35 and I-380. That is it.. One of them isn't even classified as an interstate but at least it is 2-lane and 65 MPH. If your going anywhere in the state you pretty much take a county highway to get onto one of those four roads and then travel the majority of your journey on those roads. I am going to assume they are thinking about all of these local county highways. Let me tell you, once you get out of a city, off one of those 4 major roads I listed there is only county highways left. This is how you get to all those those shrinking towns Iowa is dotted with. You get off those and you are putting some gravel in your travel.

    1. Re:As an Iowan I don't agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was in Iowa and kept getting stuck on gravel roads to get anywhere with my GPS. In Wisconsin it seems like pretty much ever back country road is paved. Never expected to see a gravel road when I crossed the state line.

  38. What's the "per capita" term based on? by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 2

    If the data doesn't include the past two years or so, then yes but only because the price of gasoline was artificially high. Now that it's come back down out of the clouds, people are driving more. Furthermore, you have to call into question the opinion of anyone who lives in a major city who has never lived in a rural area particularly people living on the East Coast. Those folks can't really comprehend long distance driving and how necessary it is.

    1. Re:What's the "per capita" term based on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idea that "per capita driving has peaked" is an open question at this point. It was definitely trending down, but lower gas prices recently has turned that around.
      http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/DOT-Miles-Traveled.php

      I don't really see how they can get rid of many roads. I would be disappointed if my dirt road was abandoned. Wouldn't I need to strike a deal with five to twenty other landowners to reach a public road? Sounds messy.

      Seems more likely that they will be re-done as dirt roads. This is becoming common in Michigan:
      http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/More-paved-Berrien-Co-roads-will-turn-to-gravel-304483621.html
      http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704913304575370950363737746

      Some actual dollar figures from the last link: " the county will pay about $2,600 per mile annually for the newly ground-up road, as against about $75,000 per mile to reconstruct it. "

    2. Re:What's the "per capita" term based on? by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      Those folks can't really comprehend long distance driving and how necessary it is.

      Folks around major metros measure road trips in time, not miles.

      As I type, I'm about 80 miles from the University of Illinois Urbana campus, and 2 hours from Chicago's O'hare airport. Congestion makes distance immaterial to the situation. At midnight I'm still 80 miles from the university, but only 50 minutes from the airport.

    3. Re:What's the "per capita" term based on? by robkeeney · · Score: 2

      It's not just people from major metro areas that measure road trips in time. I've lived most of my life in rural areas and every body I know does that.

  39. Maybe fix what they do have. by KlomDark · · Score: 1

    Just drove from Missouri Valley, IA to Denison, IA on Hwy 30 the other day. Other than a few stretches of cement roads, the rest is horrible old potholed blacktop. Fix that shit you lazy bastards.

  40. Re:It all depends.... on how stupid you are by DarkOx · · Score: 1

    I am sure they could just enact some civil immunity law if there isnt one already. A friend of mine got t-boned by a school bus (no children aboard at the time) making an illegal left turn. Even though the police at the scene ruled the accident to be entirely the fault of the bus driver there was nothing she could do. Her insurance company had to pay the entire claim and she was suck with the deductible. Could not sue for any damages etc.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  41. Peaked??? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    "since per capita driving has peaked in the U.S.,"

    As the population gets older, there will be more driving going on - not less.

    There may be a peak but I don't see when that would be.

    That's a huge assumption to make with no backup.

    That said, for Iowa it may well make sense to reduce the number of roads, perhaps expanding some others...

    Just on a side note, no-one really thinks about Iowa but I had the please of driving through a few years ago and it's one of the more beautiful states to drive through.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Peaked??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "As the population gets older, there will be more driving going on - not less."

      You aren't too specific about ages, but really as people get beyond 50 they drive less. (typically) And again after 65 or 70, another big drop. Do some searches.

      I'm in my late fifties, and have gone down to about 12,000 m/year. I used to do more like 20,000 miles/year when I was hauling the family around more. I doubt my parents/in-laws did/do more than 4000 miles per year, in their late 70's to late 80's.

    2. Re:Peaked??? by laird · · Score: 1

      "As the population gets older, there will be more driving going on - not less."

      Nope, there's data. Old people drive nearly have as many miles per capita as middle-aged people.

      Average Annual Miles per Driver by Age Group

      Age Male Female Total
      16-19 8,206 6,873 7,624
      20-34 17,976 12,004 15,098
      35-54 18,858 11,464 15,291
      55-64 15,859 7,780 11,972
      65+ 10,304 4,785 7,646
      Average 16,550 10,142 13,476

      http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/o...

    3. Re:Peaked??? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      You aren't too specific about ages, but really as people get beyond 50 they drive less. (typically) And again after 65 or 70, another big drop. Do some searches.

      In cities, yes.

      Try traveling and you'll see a different story... The city data masks the reality.

      The roads in question are outside cities.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  42. Every dollar spent on new roads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every dollar spent on new roads is a commitment -- to some degree -- to keep spending money to maintain those roads. There comes a point where you have to choose between spending all your tax money on maintaining the infrastructure you've already built, or abandoning some of that infrastructure in place so that you can do other things with that tax money.

    We've seen the results in many places (Detroit, NYC, etc) of politicians choosing to abandon infrastructure so they can spend tax dollars on some other pork project (including new roads and bridges to nowhere). So good for Iowa.

  43. Road taxes still don't cover road costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's really the same for public transport, which is also not cost effective. I really don't get the argument that public transport is bad because it's not cost effective. The roads aren't either. Both are a public service.

  44. Re:It all depends.... on how stupid you are by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

    I am sure they could just enact some civil immunity law if there isnt one already. A friend of mine got t-boned by a school bus (no children aboard at the time) making an illegal left turn. Even though the police at the scene ruled the accident to be entirely the fault of the bus driver there was nothing she could do. Her insurance company had to pay the entire claim and she was stuck with the deductible. Could not sue for any damages etc.

    Ouch!. My instinct would be to blame the insurance company - at the very least they may not have provided a product fit for intended use (but I'm not particularly litigious or a lawyer).
    I guess that's a big part of the issue - the party that makes the decisions on when roads are unsustainable to maintain is the same party that passes the laws.

    The same as the USA, Australia has many old mining towns that are now abandoned (and a currently contentious one where a town build for asbestos mining is forcibly being closed and some residents refuse to leave). Since it's not economically feasible to maintain the roads or the towns, they're either closed off (costs a sign and a little work with a bulldozer to dig a trench and make a barrier mound with the spoils). The closure probably falls under the last costs for maintenance. I'm pretty sure some of the covered bridges in Southern USA come under the same category. Sure there may be costs born by the taxpayer when people hurt themselves using them - as there is when they have accidents on their own property which the government is not obligated to provide maintenance.

    We have a ridiculous situation where playgrounds are downgraded because of the insurance costs due to damages claims by people who hurt themselves on swings and slides - which is an area where maybe the government should pass immunity laws. In the end I suspect it's a simple issue of costs - taxpayers often have bigger mouths than wallets, and payout decisions made by juries don't help things.

    When the revolution comes we're gonna need a longer wall for the lawyers.

  45. Re:It all depends.... on how stupid you are by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

    Something similar happened to my dad. Not a school bus, but a city vehicle who ran a stop sign. Cost the insurance over 5k to get it fixed, the city paid nothing. They didn't have to carry any insurance at all; must be nice to be above the law like that.

  46. weasels! trying to save money and fire people! by swschrad · · Score: 1

    somebody is spending too much time after work shouting YOU SHALL NOT PASS !! it's starting to carry over into their real life.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  47. Why is that a bold move? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just evaluate which roads you need and maintain them. Does everything have to be political?

  48. wierd science by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    >> per capita driving has peaked in the U.S

    citation please. ..and anyway even if per-capita driving ratio has peaked, the number of 'capitas' is still growing i.e. the US population is still growing, (atlhough admittedly not by much) and the average age of cars on the road is rising, so the net result is we're still seeing an increasing number of cars on the road year-on-year:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  49. Re:Rails Roads by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1

    The problem is they've torn up so many existing lines because they weren't needed at one point, now they're needed and they don't want to lay the track for it.

    The problem isn't that they don't want to lay the tracks, the problem is the economics. Today it costs $US1-2 million dollars to lay one mile of track. It takes one hell of a return of investment to get that money back after fixed expenses like employees, maintenance of rolling stock and right of way, financial obligations, etc. When the majority of railroads were built shortly after the Civil War, they relied on plentiful cheap immigrant labor for track laying work. Back then unions didn't exist, there was no such thing as minimum wage or income tax, and cost of living was very low. After WWI, few new railroad grades were built.

    The merger fever starting in the 1960s saw much redundant trackage eliminated in the last sixty years. But they were intentionally picked clean to eliminate competition, knowing full well that cost to restore trackage would be a detriment. The abandoned right-of-ways and structures were also a property tax obligation that they wanted to unload quickly. Former good grades that were excellent routes were decimated wherever possible - many became farmlands, targets of urban development, and highway grades.

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
  50. re: every state is like that? by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    I'm born and raised in Missouri, despite working in the metro DC area and living in Maryland.

    The difference I'm referring to has more to do with the overall size of the state, vs. how significant and crowded the cities are within it.

    In Missouri, for example, you can clearly see that the roads and highways are congested in St. Louis, or in Kansas City ... yet even in those two cities, traffic never really rises to the level of the metro DC area. Meanwhile, you've got hundreds of miles of wide open space. In Maryland, sure -- you've got less congested places. But there's also much more of a situation where people do long commutes to and from those places to the congested parts, each day, for a career job that justifies the travel. In Missouri, you really just don't have people living out in central or southern MO who drive all the way in to St. Louis for a job. (Maybe a FEW exceptions, but typically no....)

    For example, I live in a small town right by the borders of Virginia, West Virginia and Maryland - yet I go to work in DC. Other people take the train in to work each day who live out in Martinsburg or Charles Town, WV. There's a pretty big difference in salary and availability of jobs in the metro DC area vs. all these other outlying areas that causes such a thing to make sense. That's not typical in the Midwest.

  51. How about fewer cities next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the point of all these small worthless towns full of the exact same chain stores and restaurants?

  52. Where we're going, we don't need roads! by D4C5CE · · Score: 1

    The year being 2015, some boffin in a flying DeLorean converted to Mr. Fusion just had to say it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  53. Bout time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been saying for years that several states should start abandoning some roads. Stop maintenance on them. Allow them to be reclaimed by nature, and used freely by the locals.

    Less roads means less upkeep cost, and means more land that can be put to use by the locals and may even result in more tax dollars.

  54. Is there an app for that? by tepples · · Score: 1

    So why didn't your uncle simply get his driver's license back when he was 16?

    In my particular case, my uncle drives. He just doesn't have much time to take his son driving on the roughly one day per fortnight that they are together.

    They should have solved the problem in the previous generation!

    In any case, why must the opportunity to obtain a driver's license be hereditary? If this trend continues, and the number of active drivers actually does shrink from one generation to the next, what you call "the tiny number of people who are affected by it" will become a substantial number of people. I ask at this early stage in order to prevent it from becoming a big problem.

    It's not as if these requirements are new, after all.

    The 50-hour requirement was not in place in Indiana a generation ago.

    Furthermore, I suspect that in the vast majority of cases where the parent lacks a license, it's because the family lives somewhere like Manhattan where the child doesn't actually need one either.

    Why should the fact that the parents lived in Manhattan or had a seizure disorder doom the child to also having to live in Manhattan?

    What about your aunt; can't he drive with her?

    She told me that his completing the required supervised practice driving with her, even after he completes a few hours with a licensed instructor, "would make [her] a nervous wreck."

    What about your cousin's uncle (i.e., your dad)?

    My father lives two states away.

    What about a random neighbor, who is not an "instructor" and therefore probably would charge much less than $50/hour?

    I've considered this. How would one go about safely finding a suitable random neighbor, especially while living in not the nicest part of town? Is there an app for finding licensed drivers within cycling distance who are willing to supervise driving practice?

    What about you?

    I currently don't own a car, instead relying on a bicycle.

  55. Wow by Seng · · Score: 1

    They JUST signed a new law boosting the gas tax here in Iowa $.10 a gallon. Guess they'll need to lower that to take care of fewer roads.

    Who am I kidding?

  56. It's got nothing to do with the environment by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    We've been cutting taxes on the 1% while cutting wages for the only folks left to tax for 40 years. We're running out of money. Not because it isn't there but because we can't seem to give it to the rich fast enough.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:It's got nothing to do with the environment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's because the primary funding source for road constuction and maintenance (fuel taxes) hasn't been changed in the last 20 years and the costs for maintaining the existing roads has only gone up. BTW, cutting someone's taxes isn't "giving them money". It's letting them keep more of what is theirs.

  57. Bullshit. by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    That only counts if they're not using deceptive and immoral tricks to bring in more cash. There's two really nasty things the investor class is doing that invalidates your argument.

    First, they pump, dump and then get bailed out as too big to fail. They've been doing this for at least a hundred years, maybe longer. Please read this and maybe even the book it references.

    Then there's the more recent phenomenon called getting "Bained". Remember Kay-B-Toys? Mervyns? They weren't failed companies. They were doing just fine. They got bought out by venture capitalists who used their good name & credit to borrow a tonne of money, pay themselves huge bonuses, and then shut the whole thing down. Ever wonder what happened to all those cool Sci-Fi anthologies from the 70s? Issac Asimov's Stories and what not. Folks didn't stop reading them, their distributor was sitting on a mountain of valuable property they weren't keeping track of. Some wealthy asshat noticed, bought them up and liquidated them. Suddenly no distributor and being small but successful they collapsed before they could get another one.

    So even if I ignore the fact that just about every rich person relied on the gov't directly to make their fortune, even if I ignore the fact that they're wealth is largely build on the infrastructure and education system of our civilization, even if I ignore the commons and the meaning of natural resources. Even if I ignore _all_ that, you're still left with a bunch of dirty thieves who couldn't survive in the imaginary "real" world of capitalism that's never existed anyway.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  58. Re:Rails Roads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem is they've torn up so many existing lines because they weren't needed at one point, now they're needed and they don't want to lay the track for it.

    The problem is nobody trains for this [no pun intended]. So the cost of laying or repairing tracks is X but the slope of the demand curve is such that only a 10% increase in construction puts the cost at 10*X.

    This is like basically every industry, and it's the cost of being "lean". When you don't do your own training, education and skill building, you can only make use of the skills that are already out there in the market place.

    It's great for the skilled workers willing to put up the capital for the certifications, tools and equipment to carry out the work and set themselves up as contractors. It's not so great for the infrastructure that is limited by the lack of supply. I guess it must be ok for the corporates that shell out for the contractors, because if it wasn't, they'd change up their game and train workers internally.

  59. Mandatory quotation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To quote that great civil servant, the Transit advisor from SimCity 2000:

    "We have too many roads. Remove some to save on maintenance."