You do not know and maybe we will never know either - maybe the law is now secretly changed so that even a vague comment on the subject of government interference is illegal so now we can only assume that any closing of business may have something to do with gov albeit in majority of cases it would not. Assuming that black helicopters arrived the only way to protect the privacy of users is to destroy the data on drives and fast. To do it in a way that does not violate law (you may be destroying evidence etc) is not easy. It is sometimes better to shut down and move elsewhere, start anew with better protections (if possible) etc.
If I may paraphrase Agent Smith here: "And tell me, _Mr._ Anderson, what good is a free speech...if. you are unable to speak" - that is the situation we may find ourselves now. I think it is more perfect than catch 22. It does not matter that much if it is as Obama says the authority is not abused albeit one may doubt that as it is apparent gov officials lied in front of congress because the law allowed them and actually forced them too. The resulting situation is that we will most likely never know. The law is on their side. I think that is what grounding fathers wanted to avoid I suppose: absolute power in hands of the executive branch.How long this will be misused in a serious way? Is there a guarantee that absolute surveillance will not turn into absolute oppression. In the name of our security and human rights of course. I always knew that the western world we live in is only superficially different from communist one in which I grew up. Back then they just did not have the means to supervise everybody all t he time, they still tried and failed. Now there are technological means to achieve exactly that and the really bad thing is that judging on the general public behaviour in US and other western countries, there is not much we can expect in terms of reestablishing privacy. There is a drive towards security of communication in Germany right now but I do not see how this is going to be of any relevance when everybody is ready to sell its dearest private info to FB etc.
That is interesting. In Germany we have a part of the health insurance system privatized. It is not a free market because once in, you cannot escape and changing insurance is almost impossible (or should I say financially suicidal). The health insurance market is not free because free are only companies - customers have not much choice. Of course the private insurance industry has enough puppets in our parliament not avoid any change. The interesting part is - if you are privately insured there is not rule stating what gets paid so patient gets often enough trough set of procedures that are not needed. Usually that is only dangerous for his/her account bit not always. That is why I, being privately insured, tend to go only to doctors I know and trust.
well you i.e.US Americans devote your tax money to all these things, it still does not mean much - look at the results. Your justice and transport systems are just bad - decaying bridges all over etc. Justice system preoccupied with seizing property of possible drug dealers etc - do I have to say more? Military is maybe most powerful in the world still but looking at the results of its recent big deployments I'd say it is wasted money and wasted lives. Health care fits here just fine. I do not know what is the problem but I have a hunch - it could be this faith in free market and invisible hand fixing all combined with overwhelming paternalistic state knowing it all best (war on drugs etc). Europe is not really much better I admit. We also fail to use common sense and merit in our policy decisions. Come to think of it the major differences are two: at least in the north we do not let people rot because they smoked a joint or two without having money to hire a good lawyer and because we are such pussies we do not send our aircraft carriers all over the place.
If we want to talk about health care and free market we must first understand that health is not a normal market domain - that is directly visible when one think about choice that a customer has. It is not only the knowledge which is lucking - assume customer has cancer and think again about choice. I suppose a combination of state setting the rules for basic coverage and free enterprise entering licence controlled market only if they agree to provide basic coverage is a good start. Dutch did that some time ago and the system albeit not perfect seems to be working. Letting free market control health care market is just insane because the market is in no way free for the customer.
Well that is a lesson from history too - back then in Germany the little painter from Vienna would not have had the means to do what had done with the republic. Of course they support it. They may not know what the subsequent result would be or what side effect this will cause but they are paid to watch for profit and if this does not work even in short term then they face consequences. It is childish to require a company not to do something that majority of people already agreed with i.e. selling of all their private information that is available online.
This is where the source of evil is actually - we as a society gave up our privacy long time ago only we gave it to private companies so that they can provide us 'free' services. I can imagine that if NSA's legal rights to monitor everything are curbed then they just purchase the info legally on the market. This and some other little problems are discussed in 'the Net Delusion" among others. I value Snowden's action but I do not believe it matters anymore.I hope I am wrong on that one.
I mean labels are good and there is a good reason food industry does not like them. IT does not solve the problem tho, at least not all too big part of it. People need to be educated in that, have ability to update their knowledge and ability to use it which requires a bit of brain and a bit of money too.
Actually that is irrelevant. NSA will not really be that upset if it cannot search meta data on citizens. If there is no legal way to do it then it will outsource it to private enterprises. Where is the problem to pay google, fb etc instead of going to judge etc? After all this model of outsourcing has worked elsewhere - Iraq is a good example - instead of using only Army a whole bunch of private security companies has been brought in. I think there is much bigger problem there. It is not security of our conversations themselves but with general attitude of the public to use services that are free as in beer. I think Mr. Morozov had a good view on that. The fact that citizens are transparent not only to government but also to private industry means that if direct legal routes for NSA are closed then the agency will just buy this information on free market. That has deeper implications on the fate of democracy and civic society that we may see now. That these assholes had introduced secret court and overwhelming secrecy laws allowed them to lie in congress is even more worrying as these are actions that show their real disrespect to everything that they were suppose to protect. Maybe the good thing here is that this whole story makes people start thinking about the implications of their actions. Maybe. I doubt that tho. Maybe I am mistaken but general public does not appreciate consequences of their actions.
How should they if technology knowing (?) people would jump on google glass or a device that registers all the movements of a car with a bonus in form of lower insurance premiums (schemes like these are being tried in some places already). It is not personal communications only that can be eavesdrop - all these shine little things that make our lives easier and more efficient financially can be used to collect data and these can be used commercially thus allowing said agencies to purchase stuff without even a court order. How about that?
an attempt to provide something to watch on people's side is gone sour for Manning (admittedly he screwed it up by dumping it all without filtering). It has not been a joy ride for Snowden either and for a good reason: US gov and aparently any other western gov play together in a concerted effort to prevent such thing like informed public in the first place.
To put it more simply - people have no means and time to actually control properly the gov. It was always the case that is why we have invented different branches of the government so that they can keep each other in check. This obviously does not work if people cannot complain or cannot travel because they did or do not even know there is something to complain about which was I guess the reason a court was set to be secret. This whole secrecy thing made them being able to lie in congress hearings without fear of being prosecuted. If they lie here then the can lie any other time, who says they do this all for us?
In other words - gov not happy because of this sucker Snowden and we people not happy because of... this sucker Snowden. Solution is almost there right?
Actually it is good that you mentioned AH (the meme fits here actually). The little Austrian did raise to power using mostly legal methods and a bit of violence. This has changed when he got all the powers he needed as then the previously illegal things became law. I am not saying this is going to happen in US or any other western country now but times are difficult and such powers if they got in hands of some ruthless surrounded by opportunists can quickly make life of a normal person quite unpleasant especially if such person is perceived as opponent of current status quo. This can happen in any western country and I think we are at crossroads now. Yes the state agencies need modern technology and authority but that should have limits and be under public control at least there must be a chance to know what they are doing. IN certain sense US citizenry is indeed guilty here as they left the door open with their attitude to privacy in commercial context. Still all western countries do the same things - I just do not believe that all these 3 letter agencies left such opportunity and a set brilliant tools go unused.
electoral process is not the only one that can be used. I dislike violence because even if started with good intentions (of overthrowing oppressive regime) it tend to affect the wrong people. Still the stuff that matters (sic) can lead to escalation - first the polls show that people are bit uneasy about the shit, then if nothing changes small minority starts actions like calling their senators etc, then it goes to court against the government and the if that does not help there are street protests and then guerrilla war. The problem with that is you need to convince your fellow citizens that your issue is big enough to move their asses from fronts of their massive tvs and do something. To do that you need to use communications that your opponent controls and fight disinformation that your opponent is very well able to spread. The point here is: trouble makers like you (and possibly me) are easily identifiable and the actions on the other side are usually easier to be organized. We see what happened when a guy that tells us things go wrong says so openly. Even the French go with the fllow and deny entry of some presidential airplanes - this one single act scared me more than anything else. Not that I had any illusions about my fellow-humans but I see there is a coordinated actions of agencies that are not known for their respect to human rights - if even an airplane of a president of an independent country is not safe from them (Bolivian Airplane denied entry due to 'technical' problems) then what can a simple citizen do? I agree with you that it is not easy to fight this sort of policy - a single citizen has hardly a chance and to protest can easily destroy your livelihood - after all you are then enemy of the state and the people, traitor etc. Still this all can be done and it looks to me that something must happen as the level of government arrogance threatens the base of our society. It is also not US only that went OTT there as we have seen French like to work with US too so they most likely have similar program and would prefer to show possible whistleblower that there is no mercy. I would believe Germany had some checks in place but the strange way the government acted on the issue makes me think they have something to hide too. It would not be the first time.
your assumption about no need for full time managers is good but has its limitations too. If project size is big enough coordination and management (you can call it leadership too but it is a well defined set of skills that is needed and I do not see the reason to call it differently that it was before) is needed to avoid chaos. This is true even in groups of well educated, well mannered, and motivated individuals that posses skills in communication as well as similar understanding of what goal is and how to get there. Now how many projects that you worked in had this characteristic? Also the kye point in your statement is::if you structure your projects well" - this is an assumption that is often not true. Even if it is true somebody put an ass loads of work into it usually - it is work too. I agree however that the rigid structures officially named management forms are usually causing as much trouble as they are solving.
I guess there are people out there that think differently. They usually work in small teams and have never experienced coordination hell of a huge project. Sure it works also in chaotic way but it is damned frustrating and inefficient.
Never heard about category F toys but I think I know what you mean. I disagree however with your classification i.e. calling people perverts etc. I think use of such toys is just a matter of practicality. Women are difficult to handle and even if they come to the cellar they run away, some sooner rather than later. Sheep have nice fur but are filthy otherwise and one cannot switch them off (and there is a problem with getting them in and out of my cellar). Toys are a proper choice. Think about Herpes - the estimates are that up tp 90% of population have it. This is even filthier than sheep.....
If so then a clean toy would be appreciated. Of course it should be comfortable to use and well mannered also not too expensive (no comparing to wifey as nothing can be as expensive as wifey but that is another story) .
I am not bitter that some earn silly amount of money - I just do not see the point of making an effort to stop them from using drugs if they want to. This has never worked. Keeping the delusion that professional sport is the same sort of activity that we mortals can indulge in, if we only wanted, is just silly. It is also counterproductive and potentially dangerous for these few that would live the illusion of say Olympic dream. Example is again in any discipline - we start looking closer or there is sudden change and/or improvement in detection methods and suddenly people get cought, other make confessions etc. If any rules should be in place then that nobody can be forced to take them. This seems to be the key of another argument that is being made: if some use it then all other will have to use it too. This is a fallacy. There is no direct connection. The companies can of course force people to do bad things - it was always like this but there is a difference if you are really forced to and a situation where you have a choice and you actively make it. Contrary to what you believe, not everybody is ready to use methods, drugs etc which are known to have dangerous consequences. I have been offered drugs many times in my life and refused because I knew consequences and did not see the point. There are people that think differently - I accept this and let them die prematurely if they want to.
Well that is a bit OT but maybe not. I have masters degree in electrical engineering but I work with IT, programming and in QA for 20y now. I loved this job till fuckers brought their new way of work (not sure what that is called these days - do not read these memos). I never practised my electrical engineering degree but I keep the good engineering practice with me and what I see is not funny nor is it inspiring, well it does inspire fear of failure.... People with 'computer science' or equivalent education doing 'engineering' in their wicked ways have no fucking clue what the word engineering actually means, they probably do not even know that such thing like engineering exists (albeit I have seen IEEE manuals for sw development - guess nobody reads those). They have also another problem or actually a set of them: because nobody taught them: about communication, working in teams and such stuff and because there are still big groups of autists among them (no hurt feelings here please, besides other mental problems I am an autist too but I 'learned' basics of social interaction to the point clumsy normalos drive me crazy) they are incapable to provide a normal advice to the user or people that have to integrate their produce into something bigger and of different nature (cars or IA stuff etc) which in current days is often the case. Of course this goes wrong more often that it should be. I am not really sure I want to indulge in blame game but putting it all on 'engineers' is just unfair. The 'take it home and see if it works' attitude is the result of general perception of software and IT industry i.e. you can do it on the cheap because the only tools you really need is a brain with eyes and hands to type shit in.
The engineers I now (some of them working in software development too) tend to learn every day and do things that are practical not because it is shiny, currently fashionable new shit. Of course this approach is limited by morons in management that like the new, shiny, currently fashionable shit. It is also true that there are as many brainless engineers as tey are brainless computer scientists but at least engineers had a chance to learn how to do things practically at the university and because of that they have it a bit easier than the computer science types.
So in short what I wanted to say is this - it is not to blame computer scientists - they just repeat patterns valid in all fields of so called computer science or IT. If you blame engineers, call them idiots etc you in principle say: fuck computer science too. In fact in proper engineering, use of cow pie as a building material has actually been stopped some time ago - we tend to favor steel and concrete and other better suited stuff and only if there is no other way use cow dung but even that is done with due diligence instead of thoughtless piling of shit that the Computer Scientists are used to. Still one must admire the height software piles of shit can reach - I am shocked almost every day...
As for the freedoms you think you 'are going to' lose. Go on and start googling for say pressure cookers, nails and backpacks - see how fast you will find yourself pushed to the ground by a anti-terror unit of local police dep. Funny how these things work, is it not? It seems now that Snowden blew the cover away they think they can use their monitoring infrastructure without restraint.
I always thought that the stories about managers being worthless shitbags etc are overblown. Then I learned about managers in one of the customer systems my company was maintaining. The systems were isolated from internet orginaly and there was no need for them to be directly connected besides corporate vpn systems deemed secure enough for O&M stuff to access the sites remotely. Now manager of one of the sites complained about some problem with storage capacity (in modern times???) - the closer inspection of the site systems revealed that the storage capacity was properly dimensioned for the task but filled up with pr0n and it was site manager that was responsible. This is an anecdote of course but as it is not the only one I know I would imagine that this happens quite often. Which means any site with humans around need urgently internet access and enough bandwidth to provide for good pr0n watching experience.The design of internal IT systems must be able to cope with this of course - you cannot tell customer that s/he should not watch pr0n at work - after all it is their time and money and pay for maintenance not for advice on pr0n consumption. I do not thing water plant are much different. Boring places where pr0n is good for keeping spirits high especially of people that have not much to do anyway i.e. managers.
Slashdot Mirror
a simple script can replace any human what else is new?
You do not know and maybe we will never know either - maybe the law is now secretly changed so that even a vague comment on the subject of government interference is illegal so now we can only assume that any closing of business may have something to do with gov albeit in majority of cases it would not. Assuming that black helicopters arrived the only way to protect the privacy of users is to destroy the data on drives and fast. To do it in a way that does not violate law (you may be destroying evidence etc) is not easy. It is sometimes better to shut down and move elsewhere, start anew with better protections (if possible) etc.
If I may paraphrase Agent Smith here: "And tell me, _Mr._ Anderson, what good is a free speech ...if. you are unable to speak" - that is the situation we may find ourselves now. I think it is more perfect than catch 22. It does not matter that much if it is as Obama says the authority is not abused albeit one may doubt that as it is apparent gov officials lied in front of congress because the law allowed them and actually forced them too. The resulting situation is that we will most likely never know. The law is on their side. I think that is what grounding fathers wanted to avoid I suppose: absolute power in hands of the executive branch.How long this will be misused in a serious way? Is there a guarantee that absolute surveillance will not turn into absolute oppression. In the name of our security and human rights of course. I always knew that the western world we live in is only superficially different from communist one in which I grew up. Back then they just did not have the means to supervise everybody all t he time, they still tried and failed. Now there are technological means to achieve exactly that and the really bad thing is that judging on the general public behaviour in US and other western countries, there is not much we can expect in terms of reestablishing privacy. There is a drive towards security of communication in Germany right now but I do not see how this is going to be of any relevance when everybody is ready to sell its dearest private info to FB etc.
"Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossible." - Simon Newcomb, 1902.
now replace the other side i.e. politicians with bots and the whole system may even start working efficiently.
That is interesting. In Germany we have a part of the health insurance system privatized. It is not a free market because once in, you cannot escape and changing insurance is almost impossible (or should I say financially suicidal). The health insurance market is not free because free are only companies - customers have not much choice. Of course the private insurance industry has enough puppets in our parliament not avoid any change. The interesting part is - if you are privately insured there is not rule stating what gets paid so patient gets often enough trough set of procedures that are not needed. Usually that is only dangerous for his/her account bit not always. That is why I, being privately insured, tend to go only to doctors I know and trust.
If we want to talk about health care and free market we must first understand that health is not a normal market domain - that is directly visible when one think about choice that a customer has. It is not only the knowledge which is lucking - assume customer has cancer and think again about choice. I suppose a combination of state setting the rules for basic coverage and free enterprise entering licence controlled market only if they agree to provide basic coverage is a good start. Dutch did that some time ago and the system albeit not perfect seems to be working. Letting free market control health care market is just insane because the market is in no way free for the customer.
Well that is a lesson from history too - back then in Germany the little painter from Vienna would not have had the means to do what had done with the republic. Of course they support it. They may not know what the subsequent result would be or what side effect this will cause but they are paid to watch for profit and if this does not work even in short term then they face consequences. It is childish to require a company not to do something that majority of people already agreed with i.e. selling of all their private information that is available online.
This is where the source of evil is actually - we as a society gave up our privacy long time ago only we gave it to private companies so that they can provide us 'free' services. I can imagine that if NSA's legal rights to monitor everything are curbed then they just purchase the info legally on the market. This and some other little problems are discussed in 'the Net Delusion" among others. I value Snowden's action but I do not believe it matters anymore.I hope I am wrong on that one.
I mean labels are good and there is a good reason food industry does not like them. IT does not solve the problem tho, at least not all too big part of it. People need to be educated in that, have ability to update their knowledge and ability to use it which requires a bit of brain and a bit of money too.
Actually that is irrelevant. NSA will not really be that upset if it cannot search meta data on citizens. If there is no legal way to do it then it will outsource it to private enterprises. Where is the problem to pay google, fb etc instead of going to judge etc? After all this model of outsourcing has worked elsewhere - Iraq is a good example - instead of using only Army a whole bunch of private security companies has been brought in. I think there is much bigger problem there. It is not security of our conversations themselves but with general attitude of the public to use services that are free as in beer. I think Mr. Morozov had a good view on that. The fact that citizens are transparent not only to government but also to private industry means that if direct legal routes for NSA are closed then the agency will just buy this information on free market. That has deeper implications on the fate of democracy and civic society that we may see now. That these assholes had introduced secret court and overwhelming secrecy laws allowed them to lie in congress is even more worrying as these are actions that show their real disrespect to everything that they were suppose to protect. Maybe the good thing here is that this whole story makes people start thinking about the implications of their actions. Maybe. I doubt that tho. Maybe I am mistaken but general public does not appreciate consequences of their actions. How should they if technology knowing (?) people would jump on google glass or a device that registers all the movements of a car with a bonus in form of lower insurance premiums (schemes like these are being tried in some places already). It is not personal communications only that can be eavesdrop - all these shine little things that make our lives easier and more efficient financially can be used to collect data and these can be used commercially thus allowing said agencies to purchase stuff without even a court order. How about that?
To put it more simply - people have no means and time to actually control properly the gov. It was always the case that is why we have invented different branches of the government so that they can keep each other in check. This obviously does not work if people cannot complain or cannot travel because they did or do not even know there is something to complain about which was I guess the reason a court was set to be secret. This whole secrecy thing made them being able to lie in congress hearings without fear of being prosecuted. If they lie here then the can lie any other time, who says they do this all for us?
In other words - gov not happy because of this sucker Snowden and we people not happy because of ... this sucker Snowden. Solution is almost there right?
Why bother - it is cheaper to ask NSA or?
Has Snowden leaked any plans of Anschluss? I must have missed that but I cannot say I am surprised.....
Actually it is good that you mentioned AH (the meme fits here actually). The little Austrian did raise to power using mostly legal methods and a bit of violence. This has changed when he got all the powers he needed as then the previously illegal things became law. I am not saying this is going to happen in US or any other western country now but times are difficult and such powers if they got in hands of some ruthless surrounded by opportunists can quickly make life of a normal person quite unpleasant especially if such person is perceived as opponent of current status quo. This can happen in any western country and I think we are at crossroads now. Yes the state agencies need modern technology and authority but that should have limits and be under public control at least there must be a chance to know what they are doing. IN certain sense US citizenry is indeed guilty here as they left the door open with their attitude to privacy in commercial context. Still all western countries do the same things - I just do not believe that all these 3 letter agencies left such opportunity and a set brilliant tools go unused.
electoral process is not the only one that can be used. I dislike violence because even if started with good intentions (of overthrowing oppressive regime) it tend to affect the wrong people. Still the stuff that matters (sic) can lead to escalation - first the polls show that people are bit uneasy about the shit, then if nothing changes small minority starts actions like calling their senators etc, then it goes to court against the government and the if that does not help there are street protests and then guerrilla war. The problem with that is you need to convince your fellow citizens that your issue is big enough to move their asses from fronts of their massive tvs and do something. To do that you need to use communications that your opponent controls and fight disinformation that your opponent is very well able to spread. The point here is: trouble makers like you (and possibly me) are easily identifiable and the actions on the other side are usually easier to be organized. We see what happened when a guy that tells us things go wrong says so openly. Even the French go with the fllow and deny entry of some presidential airplanes - this one single act scared me more than anything else. Not that I had any illusions about my fellow-humans but I see there is a coordinated actions of agencies that are not known for their respect to human rights - if even an airplane of a president of an independent country is not safe from them (Bolivian Airplane denied entry due to 'technical' problems) then what can a simple citizen do? I agree with you that it is not easy to fight this sort of policy - a single citizen has hardly a chance and to protest can easily destroy your livelihood - after all you are then enemy of the state and the people, traitor etc. Still this all can be done and it looks to me that something must happen as the level of government arrogance threatens the base of our society. It is also not US only that went OTT there as we have seen French like to work with US too so they most likely have similar program and would prefer to show possible whistleblower that there is no mercy. I would believe Germany had some checks in place but the strange way the government acted on the issue makes me think they have something to hide too. It would not be the first time.
I guess there are people out there that think differently. They usually work in small teams and have never experienced coordination hell of a huge project. Sure it works also in chaotic way but it is damned frustrating and inefficient.
My 2c.
what you mean is that the bloody bots are already better than average human at reading?
there is no place to hide. Not even in the toilet.
If so then a clean toy would be appreciated. Of course it should be comfortable to use and well mannered also not too expensive (no comparing to wifey as nothing can be as expensive as wifey but that is another story) .
I for one would welcome our new f-toy overlords
I am not bitter that some earn silly amount of money - I just do not see the point of making an effort to stop them from using drugs if they want to. This has never worked. Keeping the delusion that professional sport is the same sort of activity that we mortals can indulge in, if we only wanted, is just silly. It is also counterproductive and potentially dangerous for these few that would live the illusion of say Olympic dream. Example is again in any discipline - we start looking closer or there is sudden change and/or improvement in detection methods and suddenly people get cought, other make confessions etc. If any rules should be in place then that nobody can be forced to take them. This seems to be the key of another argument that is being made: if some use it then all other will have to use it too. This is a fallacy. There is no direct connection. The companies can of course force people to do bad things - it was always like this but there is a difference if you are really forced to and a situation where you have a choice and you actively make it. Contrary to what you believe, not everybody is ready to use methods, drugs etc which are known to have dangerous consequences. I have been offered drugs many times in my life and refused because I knew consequences and did not see the point. There are people that think differently - I accept this and let them die prematurely if they want to.
The engineers I now (some of them working in software development too) tend to learn every day and do things that are practical not because it is shiny, currently fashionable new shit. Of course this approach is limited by morons in management that like the new, shiny, currently fashionable shit. It is also true that there are as many brainless engineers as tey are brainless computer scientists but at least engineers had a chance to learn how to do things practically at the university and because of that they have it a bit easier than the computer science types.
So in short what I wanted to say is this - it is not to blame computer scientists - they just repeat patterns valid in all fields of so called computer science or IT. If you blame engineers, call them idiots etc you in principle say: fuck computer science too. In fact in proper engineering, use of cow pie as a building material has actually been stopped some time ago - we tend to favor steel and concrete and other better suited stuff and only if there is no other way use cow dung but even that is done with due diligence instead of thoughtless piling of shit that the Computer Scientists are used to. Still one must admire the height software piles of shit can reach - I am shocked almost every day...
As for the freedoms you think you 'are going to' lose. Go on and start googling for say pressure cookers, nails and backpacks - see how fast you will find yourself pushed to the ground by a anti-terror unit of local police dep. Funny how these things work, is it not? It seems now that Snowden blew the cover away they think they can use their monitoring infrastructure without restraint.
you forgot about another reason - watching pr0n at work!
I always thought that the stories about managers being worthless shitbags etc are overblown. Then I learned about managers in one of the customer systems my company was maintaining. The systems were isolated from internet orginaly and there was no need for them to be directly connected besides corporate vpn systems deemed secure enough for O&M stuff to access the sites remotely. Now manager of one of the sites complained about some problem with storage capacity (in modern times???) - the closer inspection of the site systems revealed that the storage capacity was properly dimensioned for the task but filled up with pr0n and it was site manager that was responsible. This is an anecdote of course but as it is not the only one I know I would imagine that this happens quite often. Which means any site with humans around need urgently internet access and enough bandwidth to provide for good pr0n watching experience.The design of internal IT systems must be able to cope with this of course - you cannot tell customer that s/he should not watch pr0n at work - after all it is their time and money and pay for maintenance not for advice on pr0n consumption. I do not thing water plant are much different. Boring places where pr0n is good for keeping spirits high especially of people that have not much to do anyway i.e. managers.