I agree... thats why I also tried to learn Ant later in the year.
Its important to note, however, that you can't write a decent build.xml if you don't understand how the components of your JRE work (well, their interfaces anyaway).
Unfourtounatly my school system has a massive prohibition against downloading or installing anything, so I couldn't use Ant at school.
I think the way my school system runs the curriculum is the reason, they only have one AP CS class (hence I being the only person in the city (the largest city in VA) taking the AB exam (which includes data structures, algorithim effeciency (big-O notation mostly), and more advanced coverage of the other topics).
Even though there is only one APCS class they have a "Computer Programming" class.. thus for some one who follows the same path as I did (which usually is anyone seriously interested in computer science) you end up taking one year learning C++ (though it might as well be C since we never use the OO features and the kids all seemed confused about the iostream-style I/O ( >, etc.) ) and then get plopped into a one year class about CS concepts using Java.. unfourtounatly most of the year is spent on the language rather than the concepts and since the syntax is so similar I end up being bored with nothing to do.. this is probably why I dislike Java.
Wow that was a terrible explination, I'm tired and can't think.. please don't mod me down for my incoherence
...Or should they start off coding in assembly or even machine code?
For the sake of learning yes, In practical terms no
At some point, it makes sense to abstract away details so that students can understand important concepts.
Yes, I agree, there is a line where convienience oversteps the need to learn, but I don't feel that this is across it.
Now, if your assignments or understanding of the concepts you were taught required knowledge of javadoc or jar, then I agree that your teacher did not use the right tool(s) to teach these concepts, or should have modified the course so that these tools weren't needed (e.g. generate documentation in eclipse should have been all that they needed to run).
She never required us to use Jars but when I had a bunch of inter-working classes it was alot easier. She never required docs, but its just a good idea to get in the practice. Yes, the generate documentation wizard would be sufficient, but we were using JCreator because the teacher mandated it (I used Eclipse at home).
So, given this, do you still believe that an IDE abstracts away too much of the detail needed to understand OO, Algorithms, and Data Structures? If so, which needed details are left out?
Your point is valid when it comes to my class (I just like to learn and think it is good to learn the language and its suite so that I have a real working knowledge). The difference is that the author was talking about an actual "Intro to Java" class, not a conceptual CS class like mine. Don't you think that in this situation it makes sense to learn what goes on under the hood of the IDE before ignoring it?
I am a high school student.. I'm currently taking (and often teaching more than the teacher ) an AP Computer Science course which, while actualy about the concepts (OO Principles, Algorithims, Data Structures (well they _should_ be included), etc.), is taught in Java.
The course is taught using an IDE which did make it easier for most of the students, but as a result no body even knew javac existed.. as far as they were concerned they clicked a button and it magicaly was compiled.. while some would call this good decoupling, what it showed for me is that people ended up completly ignorant of the underlying implementation... they dont know what the command line options are for the compiler or VM, or that javadoc or jar exist (or the related concepts). It left me playing tech support in class so much that I had to do all my actual coding at home.
This point would be even more important in the case of python given that it can run as an interactive interpreted language and all (I haven't atually finished learning python yet).
The point is that learning without an IDE gives the student better background on how the language works. If you use an editor with syntax higlighting then other than some ease of use there is no real advantage to the IDE.
You mention emacs and vi.. if you are running under a POSIX enviornment then you should really teach without an IDE because it better teaches the principles of the UNIX system ideal (small programs with one purpose). Even if you run Windows it wouldn't hurt the students (and future programmers) to be introduced to the UNIX way of doing things.
I'm stupid.. I bought a PSP rather than an iPod because I thought it would work as a media player AND be able to play games... where's the downside? *fills up whole memory card*
Well, only 512MB of space for one.. well they will release good movies on UMD then I can watch them on the move, I can't do that on an iPod *cue release of 5th Gen iPod*
Yea but I'm sure they're will be good games for PSP.... now I'm looking at not getting as good a loptop so I can enough cash left over to buy a new iPod.
The solution to the CVS cop-out is...
on
The CVS Cop-Out
·
· Score: 2, Funny
switching to the Subversion cop-out... its more efficient and that way you could cop-out even further..
"well I fixed that bug but it was in an atomic commit with all the other pointless bugs you have discovered and in the middle of it the power went out and I don't want to resubmit until I'm sure its safe"
As a high school student who loves open source, is looking for a way to break into the development community thereof, could use some money, and is faced with lots of free time the SoC seemed like a perfect oppourtunity when I first heard of it. Just a glance at the FAQ, however, says that I am ineligible..
Slashdot Mirror
I agree... thats why I also tried to learn Ant later in the year.
Its important to note, however, that you can't write a decent build.xml if you don't understand how the components of your JRE work (well, their interfaces anyaway).
Unfourtounatly my school system has a massive prohibition against downloading or installing anything, so I couldn't use Ant at school.
I just don't like Java as much as C++.
.. thus for some one who follows the same path as I did (which usually is anyone seriously interested in computer science) you end up taking one year learning C++ (though it might as well be C since we never use the OO features and the kids all seemed confused about the iostream-style I/O ( >, etc.) ) and then get plopped into a one year class about CS concepts using Java.. unfourtounatly most of the year is spent on the language rather than the concepts and since the syntax is so similar I end up being bored with nothing to do.. this is probably why I dislike Java.
.. please don't mod me down for my incoherence
I think the way my school system runs the curriculum is the reason, they only have one AP CS class (hence I being the only person in the city (the largest city in VA) taking the AB exam (which includes data structures, algorithim effeciency (big-O notation mostly), and more advanced coverage of the other topics).
Even though there is only one APCS class they have a "Computer Programming" class
Wow that was a terrible explination, I'm tired and can't think
...Or should they start off coding in assembly or even machine code?
At some point, it makes sense to abstract away details so that students can understand important concepts.For the sake of learning yes, In practical terms no
Yes, I agree, there is a line where convienience oversteps the need to learn, but I don't feel that this is across it.
Now, if your assignments or understanding of the concepts you were taught required knowledge of javadoc or jar, then I agree that your teacher did not use the right tool(s) to teach these concepts, or should have modified the course so that these tools weren't needed (e.g. generate documentation in eclipse should have been all that they needed to run).
She never required us to use Jars but when I had a bunch of inter-working classes it was alot easier. She never required docs, but its just a good idea to get in the practice. Yes, the generate documentation wizard would be sufficient, but we were using JCreator because the teacher mandated it (I used Eclipse at home).
So, given this, do you still believe that an IDE abstracts away too much of the detail needed to understand OO, Algorithms, and Data Structures? If so, which needed details are left out?
Your point is valid when it comes to my class (I just like to learn and think it is good to learn the language and its suite so that I have a real working knowledge). The difference is that the author was talking about an actual "Intro to Java" class, not a conceptual CS class like mine. Don't you think that in this situation it makes sense to learn what goes on under the hood of the IDE before ignoring it?
I am a high school student.. I'm currently taking (and often teaching more than the teacher ) an AP Computer Science course which, while actualy about the concepts (OO Principles, Algorithims, Data Structures (well they _should_ be included), etc.), is taught in Java.
The course is taught using an IDE which did make it easier for most of the students, but as a result no body even knew javac existed.. as far as they were concerned they clicked a button and it magicaly was compiled.. while some would call this good decoupling, what it showed for me is that people ended up completly ignorant of the underlying implementation... they dont know what the command line options are for the compiler or VM, or that javadoc or jar exist (or the related concepts). It left me playing tech support in class so much that I had to do all my actual coding at home.
This point would be even more important in the case of python given that it can run as an interactive interpreted language and all (I haven't atually finished learning python yet).
The point is that learning without an IDE gives the student better background on how the language works. If you use an editor with syntax higlighting then other than some ease of use there is no real advantage to the IDE.
You mention emacs and vi.. if you are running under a POSIX enviornment then you should really teach without an IDE because it better teaches the principles of the UNIX system ideal (small programs with one purpose). Even if you run Windows it wouldn't hurt the students (and future programmers) to be introduced to the UNIX way of doing things.
hope that helps.
I'm stupid.. I bought a PSP rather than an iPod because I thought it would work as a media player AND be able to play games... where's the downside? *fills up whole memory card*
Well, only 512MB of space for one.. well they will release good movies on UMD then I can watch them on the move, I can't do that on an iPod *cue release of 5th Gen iPod*
Yea but I'm sure they're will be good games for PSP....
now I'm looking at not getting as good a loptop so I can enough cash left over to buy a new iPod.
switching to the Subversion cop-out... its more efficient and that way you could cop-out even further ..
"well I fixed that bug but it was in an atomic commit with all the other pointless bugs you have discovered and in the middle of it the power went out and I don't want to resubmit until I'm sure its safe"
German for nutcase
As a high school student who loves open source, is looking for a way to break into the development community thereof, could use some money, and is faced with lots of free time the SoC seemed like a perfect oppourtunity when I first heard of it. Just a glance at the FAQ, however, says that I am ineligible..
Anyone know why this is?