America most certainly was as such. And you seem to be very confused to those four people while ignoring the fact that the majority of companies in America today were started after WWII and aren't publicly traded. What you generally hear about is publicly traded companies because they has a market listing as well as legislatively mandate reporting and compliance requirements. This throws your entire argument into the trash bin.
most unfortunately not. actually, it would be better for your american patriotism argument, if you stayed back in 19th century.
for, those companies that started after the wwii and not publicly traded, or publicly traded, made their fortunes on domination of an entire american empire, which was kept through beyond-fascist means. there were puppet dictators (more than 12) ruling numerous 3rd world countries on behalf of america, and committing genocides ( almost all of them are convinced for crimes against humanity these days) and in the second or first world countries, the order was kept with things like this :
in ANY country that got affiliated with wwii west, the equivalent of this organization was set up, albeit with different names. you will find the read in there, quite disturbing.
basically, united states was dominating an empire that spanned all countries outside the iron curtain and china, unopposed. ironically, the time american economy started to decline, and american dream ended, is the time that america's grip on that empire started to fade.
america never 'was' as such. there were only frontier conditions, allowing the new entrants to the market to be able to free of domination of established ones. and when frontiers expired, power hierarchy got established again. come late 19th century, almost entire america risked being owned by 4 people. now, it is owned by a group of people through innumerable proxies and conglomerates. nothing has been different. below post illustrates it fine. youre not the first one to use that argument. that 'free' market conditions, freedom of innovation whatnot, has always been an illusion.
I call events as I see them with my own eyes, ears, and brain. If that makes me a "right wing nutjob" in your eyes, so be it. I like my country, and proudly identify as a US Citizen
people have been manipulated into private agendas through use of religion first, and then nationality second for thousands of years. it doesnt matter what you 'see' with your own eyes. if you cant see through, it means that you dont see at all. and, if you had truly seen through, you wouldnt be able to proudly identify yourself an u.s. citizen, with SO much shit that would make hitler weep, under the pile.
I'd hate to have to use such a dividing line, but the reasonable options kept getting circumvented.
you can set up your trade barriers as soon as you want. its your call. i doubt the rest of the world would notice too much. after an adjusting period, world market would adjust.
What I am saying there is that I'm surprised that nobody has found a way to get those companies to play favorably to the US and western EU.
oh they are trying. what do you think acta is ? wto, and all that ? however, the world is not one sided anymore. there are other powers than u.s. and u.s. cannot run the empire it run for its own benefit for 60 years anymore. and by the way, us and western eu, are not in the same side, in these affairs.
but what strikes me odd is, american people complaining and bitching and whining about their jobs being lost to overseas, after 5 decades of exploiting and manipulating and living off on the blood of those who have been brought unwillingly under the control of their empire with a democratic storefront.
sounds 'far too left' ? it isnt. i have been actually a center right individual up till the last few years, and have been way too pro-american, than you yourself probably are. however, what i speak of is a solid history with facts and references and survivors that the private interests that basically ran your country for half of the decade, dont want you to know, so that you can be proud of your citizenship. i would provide links and references to historical facts, however this will very probably shake your view regarding your country. if you want, i can provide these disturbing stuff.
all that's happening at this moment, is just crumbling of the bloody empire your country was riding on.
"When someone uses the words "global" or "competition" (and derivatives thereof), someone usually wants to pass off anti-US bullshit."
and when someone talks like that, it means its someone who is a right wing nutjob.
if elance, and other unmentionable firms maintain a us only market that is closed from the rest of the world, the rest of the world would maintain their market. all that would happen would be right wing nutjobs like you in usa, driveling in your own crap. because, a smaller market means less activity in ALL respects.
what keeps them from being smote by a large first world interest ? duh. i dont know. non american, or non first world corporations ? governments ? armies ?
doesnt matter india, pakistan, china, this that. quality job on a given quality, costs always same.
ill give an example of software development with outsourcing to india. since im myself doing software work to entire world from where i live. (im not american). and i am naturally competing against everyone from around the world, including indians. (im not indian) :
you can get things done for $3/hour when you outsource to india. however, the result generally ends up to be shabby quality (if it ever happens to 'end up' in the first place), and very bad things can happen in the process.
you can get things done for $5/hour. much better than the above. but, you may find that the developers you are working with are always trying to persuade you that what you have received, different than what you have asked, is good for you. or things like that.
you can get things done for $8/hour. you will generally get what you need. but, it would still be hard to rely on delivery dates and whatnot. generally you cannot be sure that the developer you have found, will deliver on time, and will be there for you to continually work with.
--
ALL the levels above, are sweatshop levels, or levels in which you can find a lot of fresh-out-of-college kids, or newcomer people being employed or trying to make names for themselves. and, the instant they find a better paying job/project, they ditch their employer, or your project for it.
---
then you get to $10-15/hour. things are much more stable in this vicinity. you can rely on deadlines (in general), you get what you ask for, things happen to proceed much more professionally. BUT, there is no guarantee that, the people you are working with, are going to be there forever.
you get to $15-25/hour. this is a stable area with good quality, professionalism, deadlines met, and long time relationships. this is, it seems, where everything stabilizes. you can work in this vicinity for years, unless, the person you are working with ends up recruited for a very good position somewhere, or, established another business, changes fields or so on.
at this point on, starts the 'cream de la creme'. as the hourly goes higher, you find more and more professional people. and the higher you get, it is harder to find such people. because, if they stayed in the field for that long, it means that they will have amassed a reasonable clientele that relies on their services and established good business relationships that would last. so generally, people who are in these rate levels are kinda out of the market, because, if they dont decide to have others do their own work (outsourcing again), it means their hands are full.
.....
almost all the developers seem to go through these levels eventually, unless they leave their fields, or leave trenches by being managers, or things like that. so, there is indeed a 'global' leveling of 'you get what you pay for' even in outsourcing.
the thing is, american wages, and workload seem WAY too high and way too low, respectively, compared to the global levels. it is not uncommon for a small american shop to ask $60 hourly. this, is of course tied to the cost of living in america. however, the thing is, if indians, pakistani, australian, chinese, russian, french, spanish, brasilians end up stabilizing in a given hourly wage for a given job globally, and americans still cant make ends meet with it, the problem would mean that there is a problem with cost of living in america, than the field itself. and that should be questioned in the first place ; why despite everything is being produced cheaply in china, prices are STILL as high as pre-outsourcing levels.
that being said, there is a noticeable percentage of americans being able to compete in places like elance com etc, against indians and their low hourlies.
"i would not say that feudalism needs to be abolished, but rather we need the reform the feudalism system so that it best serves society"
extreme ? yes. in the same direction ? yes.
something that awards the ownership of thoughts and thought concepts to private individuals, is a system that is akin to granting the ownership of entire land swaths to individuals. every time you pass that bridge of thought, you will have to pay that individual a tithe.
analogy stops here. because, it is possible not to pass a certain bridge in daily life, if it is not a very specific situation.
BUT, thought processes, logic, thought constructs cannot be omitted at ANY given point in life. intellectual feudalism is much worse in that respect - anything created using any given 'owned' thought process somewhere, you owe the lord of that thought process a tithe.
in layman's terms : some things, are just bad, faulty in their basic mechanics. patent system is one of these. it cannot work, nomatter how you reform it. it will eventually steer ANY kind of reforms you make, in the direction of its own nature ; feudalism.
a good case in point, is here, just again, in the same day, of the posting of this article :
this is the solution of this problem. there were fools who were still defending the system with various excuses. but see, it gets worse everyday.
and no. it being a bureaucracy or controlled by government doesnt matter. private or public, SOMEone will have to control and grant patents. and, it will eventually end up like this. in fact, if it was private, the situation would be much worse by now, since private corporations are easily dominated by their relevant interest parties, as we have seen from the financial rating agencies' role in wall street scam.
that the people he ddosed are ones that would end freedom of speech online and offline, as soon as they got enough power to do it. actually, even though they dont have the power to do it now, they are trying with anti net neutrality moves, acta, dmca and whatnot.
freedom of speech is a reality and an objective only for people who pursue freedom. the conservative/right wing pursues it only as long as it fulfills their goals.
"china (or insert random country) will pass usa in brain power in 2010something" and panic...
if you be selfish assholes that only think about your own pocket over your entire society, you not only deserve being surpassed, but bring it upon yourself.
britain is fog, humidity, and rain. ah, also cold ocean air too. youre in between humidity, cold, and rain, most of the time. you see sun maybe a few months in a year. that is if you call it a 'sunny' day. in case you havent noticed, british literature is full of mentions of sunny days. 'it was a sunny day in wilhelmshire that day and...' this that. sunny days are something worth mentioning.
usa has a HUGE geography with innumerable climates. from arid desert to temperate highlands. and, there is a huge demographic scattered around that huge country.
there is no chance in hell that these two demographics can be compared. 'americans, despite being sicklier, live longer than their peers' -> yeah, subject them into rainy, humid, ocean cold every day in a place like britain, and see how fast they are dying with their sickliness.
you know, the ones that dominate the creative markets and force their prices and business models down the throats of people ? they are ripping off the choices of billions. where is their reparation ? that is even leaving out the fact that they are buying laws to crumple emerging technologies for their sake. then why didnt we let carriage producers buy laws to hamper auto industry ? well, i guess they didnt have a strong enough lobby...
before any idiot ayn randist jumps in with 2 century old excuses : it doesnt matter how market domination is achieved. whether it is through fair means, or unfair means, when market domination happens, people's choices are ripped. its as simple as that.
software that accepts input from user will always be susceptible to viruses. it doesnt matter whether its linux, or it is windows. because the most exploitable system is windows, they are concentrating on that and having an easy time. if, it had been linux and it was much more tougher than windows as it is, they would just spend more time, but exploit it too.
the av industry wasnt born because of windows, dear fool. the potential for viruses has always been there. they are just capitalizing on the most common operating system. if windows becomes more secure, they will exploit other operating systems.
it IS unfair competition itself. it was what was done with ie against netscape, and media player against others.
they need to be sued the shit out of them, before they can bankrupt any more businesses with that trick. but, if it is done in usa, the corrupt legal system will probably end up favoring microsoft or dragging for a decade, causing all competitors to go bankrupt.
you will only have a legal right to what you create, after you successfully participate in the abolition of all the self-created monopolies in music, media, publishing and broadcasting monopolies that FORCE their business models and PRICES down on people's throats through lobbying or market domination.
until then, you cant have a right, and you cant talk about having a right, because 'free market' is not determining the price or the ways a product is sold and used. if the market is not free, you dont have a right to be free either.
Slashdot Mirror
'demonstrating' ?
icbm capable submarines have been around in east and west bloc since some 30 years or more.
America most certainly was as such. And you seem to be very confused to those four people while ignoring the fact that the majority of companies in America today were started after WWII and aren't publicly traded. What you generally hear about is publicly traded companies because they has a market listing as well as legislatively mandate reporting and compliance requirements. This throws your entire argument into the trash bin.
most unfortunately not. actually, it would be better for your american patriotism argument, if you stayed back in 19th century.
for, those companies that started after the wwii and not publicly traded, or publicly traded, made their fortunes on domination of an entire american empire, which was kept through beyond-fascist means. there were puppet dictators (more than 12) ruling numerous 3rd world countries on behalf of america, and committing genocides ( almost all of them are convinced for crimes against humanity these days) and in the second or first world countries, the order was kept with things like this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
in ANY country that got affiliated with wwii west, the equivalent of this organization was set up, albeit with different names. you will find the read in there, quite disturbing.
basically, united states was dominating an empire that spanned all countries outside the iron curtain and china, unopposed. ironically, the time american economy started to decline, and american dream ended, is the time that america's grip on that empire started to fade.
america never 'was' as such. there were only frontier conditions, allowing the new entrants to the market to be able to free of domination of established ones. and when frontiers expired, power hierarchy got established again. come late 19th century, almost entire america risked being owned by 4 people. now, it is owned by a group of people through innumerable proxies and conglomerates. nothing has been different. below post illustrates it fine. youre not the first one to use that argument. that 'free' market conditions, freedom of innovation whatnot, has always been an illusion.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1847700&cid=34083272
I call events as I see them with my own eyes, ears, and brain. If that makes me a "right wing nutjob" in your eyes, so be it. I like my country, and proudly identify as a US Citizen
people have been manipulated into private agendas through use of religion first, and then nationality second for thousands of years. it doesnt matter what you 'see' with your own eyes. if you cant see through, it means that you dont see at all. and, if you had truly seen through, you wouldnt be able to proudly identify yourself an u.s. citizen, with SO much shit that would make hitler weep, under the pile.
I'd hate to have to use such a dividing line, but the reasonable options kept getting circumvented.
you can set up your trade barriers as soon as you want. its your call. i doubt the rest of the world would notice too much. after an adjusting period, world market would adjust.
What I am saying there is that I'm surprised that nobody has found a way to get those companies to play favorably to the US and western EU.
oh they are trying. what do you think acta is ? wto, and all that ? however, the world is not one sided anymore. there are other powers than u.s. and u.s. cannot run the empire it run for its own benefit for 60 years anymore. and by the way, us and western eu, are not in the same side, in these affairs.
but what strikes me odd is, american people complaining and bitching and whining about their jobs being lost to overseas, after 5 decades of exploiting and manipulating and living off on the blood of those who have been brought unwillingly under the control of their empire with a democratic storefront.
sounds 'far too left' ? it isnt. i have been actually a center right individual up till the last few years, and have been way too pro-american, than you yourself probably are. however, what i speak of is a solid history with facts and references and survivors that the private interests that basically ran your country for half of the decade, dont want you to know, so that you can be proud of your citizenship. i would provide links and references to historical facts, however this will very probably shake your view regarding your country. if you want, i can provide these disturbing stuff.
all that's happening at this moment, is just crumbling of the bloody empire your country was riding on.
"When someone uses the words "global" or "competition" (and derivatives thereof), someone usually wants to pass off anti-US bullshit."
and when someone talks like that, it means its someone who is a right wing nutjob.
if elance, and other unmentionable firms maintain a us only market that is closed from the rest of the world, the rest of the world would maintain their market. all that would happen would be right wing nutjobs like you in usa, driveling in your own crap. because, a smaller market means less activity in ALL respects.
what keeps them from being smote by a large first world interest ? duh. i dont know. non american, or non first world corporations ? governments ? armies ?
apparently the parent had contradicted with someone's political religion.
doesnt matter india, pakistan, china, this that. quality job on a given quality, costs always same.
.....
ill give an example of software development with outsourcing to india. since im myself doing software work to entire world from where i live. (im not american). and i am naturally competing against everyone from around the world, including indians. (im not indian) :
you can get things done for $3/hour when you outsource to india. however, the result generally ends up to be shabby quality (if it ever happens to 'end up' in the first place), and very bad things can happen in the process.
you can get things done for $5/hour. much better than the above. but, you may find that the developers you are working with are always trying to persuade you that what you have received, different than what you have asked, is good for you. or things like that.
you can get things done for $8/hour. you will generally get what you need. but, it would still be hard to rely on delivery dates and whatnot. generally you cannot be sure that the developer you have found, will deliver on time, and will be there for you to continually work with.
--
ALL the levels above, are sweatshop levels, or levels in which you can find a lot of fresh-out-of-college kids, or newcomer people being employed or trying to make names for themselves. and, the instant they find a better paying job/project, they ditch their employer, or your project for it.
---
then you get to $10-15/hour. things are much more stable in this vicinity. you can rely on deadlines (in general), you get what you ask for, things happen to proceed much more professionally. BUT, there is no guarantee that, the people you are working with, are going to be there forever.
you get to $15-25/hour. this is a stable area with good quality, professionalism, deadlines met, and long time relationships. this is, it seems, where everything stabilizes. you can work in this vicinity for years, unless, the person you are working with ends up recruited for a very good position somewhere, or, established another business, changes fields or so on.
at this point on, starts the 'cream de la creme'. as the hourly goes higher, you find more and more professional people. and the higher you get, it is harder to find such people. because, if they stayed in the field for that long, it means that they will have amassed a reasonable clientele that relies on their services and established good business relationships that would last. so generally, people who are in these rate levels are kinda out of the market, because, if they dont decide to have others do their own work (outsourcing again), it means their hands are full.
almost all the developers seem to go through these levels eventually, unless they leave their fields, or leave trenches by being managers, or things like that. so, there is indeed a 'global' leveling of 'you get what you pay for' even in outsourcing.
the thing is, american wages, and workload seem WAY too high and way too low, respectively, compared to the global levels. it is not uncommon for a small american shop to ask $60 hourly. this, is of course tied to the cost of living in america. however, the thing is, if indians, pakistani, australian, chinese, russian, french, spanish, brasilians end up stabilizing in a given hourly wage for a given job globally, and americans still cant make ends meet with it, the problem would mean that there is a problem with cost of living in america, than the field itself. and that should be questioned in the first place ; why despite everything is being produced cheaply in china, prices are STILL as high as pre-outsourcing levels.
that being said, there is a noticeable percentage of americans being able to compete in places like elance com etc, against indians and their low hourlies.
again the same overly positivist approach.
let me portray the situation with an analogy :
"i would not say that feudalism needs to be abolished, but rather we need the reform the feudalism system so that it best serves society"
extreme ? yes. in the same direction ? yes.
something that awards the ownership of thoughts and thought concepts to private individuals, is a system that is akin to granting the ownership of entire land swaths to individuals. every time you pass that bridge of thought, you will have to pay that individual a tithe.
analogy stops here. because, it is possible not to pass a certain bridge in daily life, if it is not a very specific situation.
BUT, thought processes, logic, thought constructs cannot be omitted at ANY given point in life. intellectual feudalism is much worse in that respect - anything created using any given 'owned' thought process somewhere, you owe the lord of that thought process a tithe.
in layman's terms : some things, are just bad, faulty in their basic mechanics. patent system is one of these. it cannot work, nomatter how you reform it. it will eventually steer ANY kind of reforms you make, in the direction of its own nature ; feudalism.
a good case in point, is here, just again, in the same day, of the posting of this article :
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1857570&cid=34154846
this is the solution of this problem. there were fools who were still defending the system with various excuses. but see, it gets worse everyday.
and no. it being a bureaucracy or controlled by government doesnt matter. private or public, SOMEone will have to control and grant patents. and, it will eventually end up like this. in fact, if it was private, the situation would be much worse by now, since private corporations are easily dominated by their relevant interest parties, as we have seen from the financial rating agencies' role in wall street scam.
and how did what you said cleared the irrelevance of your example ?
that the people he ddosed are ones that would end freedom of speech online and offline, as soon as they got enough power to do it. actually, even though they dont have the power to do it now, they are trying with anti net neutrality moves, acta, dmca and whatnot.
freedom of speech is a reality and an objective only for people who pursue freedom. the conservative/right wing pursues it only as long as it fulfills their goals.
yea. instead government should trap people into being dependent on private parties. so that, it can be all feudalistic again.
"china (or insert random country) will pass usa in brain power in 2010something" and panic ...
if you be selfish assholes that only think about your own pocket over your entire society, you not only deserve being surpassed, but bring it upon yourself.
britain is fog, humidity, and rain. ah, also cold ocean air too. youre in between humidity, cold, and rain, most of the time. you see sun maybe a few months in a year. that is if you call it a 'sunny' day. in case you havent noticed, british literature is full of mentions of sunny days. 'it was a sunny day in wilhelmshire that day and ...' this that. sunny days are something worth mentioning.
usa has a HUGE geography with innumerable climates. from arid desert to temperate highlands. and, there is a huge demographic scattered around that huge country.
there is no chance in hell that these two demographics can be compared. 'americans, despite being sicklier, live longer than their peers' -> yeah, subject them into rainy, humid, ocean cold every day in a place like britain, and see how fast they are dying with their sickliness.
you know, the ones that dominate the creative markets and force their prices and business models down the throats of people ? they are ripping off the choices of billions. where is their reparation ? that is even leaving out the fact that they are buying laws to crumple emerging technologies for their sake. then why didnt we let carriage producers buy laws to hamper auto industry ? well, i guess they didnt have a strong enough lobby ...
before any idiot ayn randist jumps in with 2 century old excuses : it doesnt matter how market domination is achieved. whether it is through fair means, or unfair means, when market domination happens, people's choices are ripped. its as simple as that.
'optional' is irrelevant. billions of clueless users will download it and wont give a chance to anything else, just because it comes with windows.
one moronic example after another.
software that accepts input from user will always be susceptible to viruses. it doesnt matter whether its linux, or it is windows. because the most exploitable system is windows, they are concentrating on that and having an easy time. if, it had been linux and it was much more tougher than windows as it is, they would just spend more time, but exploit it too.
please, dont come and post with shitty arguments.
the av industry wasnt born because of windows, dear fool. the potential for viruses has always been there. they are just capitalizing on the most common operating system. if windows becomes more secure, they will exploit other operating systems.
it IS unfair competition itself. it was what was done with ie against netscape, and media player against others.
they need to be sued the shit out of them, before they can bankrupt any more businesses with that trick. but, if it is done in usa, the corrupt legal system will probably end up favoring microsoft or dragging for a decade, causing all competitors to go bankrupt.
i think eu will need to fix this again.
tor anonymizer ? encryption ? your-freedom.net ?
you dont understand a single thing about this. if everyone smokes, you smoke too, even if youre not a smoker. there is no other option.
and with that, when 'art' is copyrighted, any copyright holder is able to sue any other similar creation of art, claiming infringement.
moreover, since big corporations dominating majority of art creation and distribution, situation becomes even less 'free'.
reflect on these, and post again next time.
google 'peerguardian'.
you will only have a legal right to what you create, after you successfully participate in the abolition of all the self-created monopolies in music, media, publishing and broadcasting monopolies that FORCE their business models and PRICES down on people's throats through lobbying or market domination.
until then, you cant have a right, and you cant talk about having a right, because 'free market' is not determining the price or the ways a product is sold and used. if the market is not free, you dont have a right to be free either.
where individuals are supposedly free, but end up being corporations' bitch. you are just free to choose who you will be a bitch for ...
i know a lot of you oldtimers will get irritated. get irritated. the reality YOU built for us youngsters is irritating us too.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1854232&cid=34125972