From your posts, you seem to indicate that you're an experienced gamer, but also one who doesn't have vast amounts of time to dedicate to the game, and thus is incapable of really experiencing most of the end-game instances (although this doesn't strictly hold, and is certainly nothing like the "omg 8 month constant grind" or precisely calibrated gear sets you paint in one of the sibling posts, it's sufficiently true for most people to not be worth arguing). Hence you feel like the game is ripping you off, with all this new content which just streams by and is inaccessible. Roughly correct?
no its not correct.
i have acceptable time to spend on a game, since its my main hobby. however, i cant put any game in a second job status. because if it was job what i was looking for in my spare time, i would have done overtime and at least made money out of it. im looking for entertainment. and endlessly trying to keep up with a game in NOT fun ways, is not something that classifies as fun for me.
Why would they not see the endgame for a zone? It's not going anywhere.
Unless, of course, you're one of those of players who consider WoW a footrace to gear, so that you can stand around in the major cities flexing and showing off your digital attributes.
it doesnt matter whether you consider it a race or not. it IS a race. if you wait and try to take your time to enjoy the content, you will find yourself alone at your level, like a relic of pretbc wow. there are people who are still maintaining "pretbc guilds". which are dwindling in numbers day by day and each and every member of them are forced to join the race because everyone moves on, and not enough people are left to maintain any pretbc event.
you cant just "take your time" in such an environment. the environment does not allow it.
Those people are very much the minority. The casual gamers are far more numerous, and our choices in the game aren't driven by what gear we need, but by which areas we haven't explored.
game is defined by what gear you need. they explicitly planned the game upon that. you hit 70, you get noticeable set pieces, but they are not even enough to start a decent endgame instance. why ? you need some number of cleverly planned top trinkets that are distributed to each class in order to keep up with the cleverly planned instances. not only one, two but all of a 10 man raid group needs those. if 2-3 lacks them, raid goes into trouble. because it is PLANNED that way.
I just got a level 60 character for the first time (I've had the game since launch). Eventually I'll see the new content, but I'm in no rush. The plaguelands, winterspring, and now the outlands have been new and fun for me, and I never had to resort to grinding for anything.
keep on dreaming. by the time you get even near 70 new expansion will have come on top of tbc, and even the people you term as casuals are going to be in new expansion. you will be forced to quit the game, or grind.
I swear sometimes I think the hardcore gamers consider themselves the elite that Blizzard should cater heavily to - but they provide the same revenue stream as a casual gamer, use more resources, and are far less numerous.
had i been a hardcore gamer, or a powergamer, or an unseasoned gamer that havent experienced being milked in a mmo before, i would still be playing wow. but im not.
the more you grind, the more better equipped you become, and are allowed to participate in endgame. however, the endgame constantly runs away, with now neverending expansions. (they decided to put out 1 exp every year).
you get stronger, yet monsters get stronger too with each level. thats allright.
but, your relative strength compared to mobs NEVER changes. even it is harder to kill mobs at any given time of your equal level and playing area (instances, raid zones) than you were at level 40 or level 50. lets say thats allright too.
but what have you succeeded in 70 levels and 30 levels worth of rep/item grind ? you are now worse of as a percentage compared to average mob you have to whack than you were before. now you have to work in groups of 5 to 20, which means that you will need EVEN MORE time due to coordination, common time windows needed for gathering of the group to beat challenges etc.
Wait... You're upset that they're introducing new content? What are people supposed to do after they hit 70? Just sit there until the end of time? I'd rather have something new to do than do the same thing over and over again for eternity, personally.
they are not introducing new "content".
what they are doing is taking dwarf, elf, tauren, human npc templates, copying them over to a new group id, giving them a fancy name like "Endless Protectors of Unending Sewers" and creating a new faction that is bent on defending the world of warcraft from incessant encroachment of evil shit. complete with a few 10 levels worth of reputation grind for new item enhancements, with new sets that one of each 5 piece drops from a different of their related copy-over template instances (or others)- which you can only even go in in heroic mode after grinding around 10 levels worth-time equivalent reputation with them, new sets that are going to totally invalidate whatever you were NOT able to complete as a set in the past year (since tbc), and which sets you wont be able to complete in shorter than 1 year so they will be valid for even a brief stint before a new expansion comes out and invalidates whatever you have with its new zone green drops, and such.
its not new content. its player screwing.
People complaining about "grinding" to 70 are usually the same people I see in 70 PvP battlegrounds wearing their level 60 PvP (or even worse, level 60 raid) gear. The "grind" from 60-70 was less than two weeks of real time (not in-game time) for me, as a casual player, and I'd only quested in half the new zones in Outland and run 1/4 of the instances.
you talk like you are not playing wow. its not the grind to 70 that matters. its the grind AFTER that.
even if you do ok, even getting one piece of arena set, which is the easiest top tier set to acquire (tier 5.5), will take 1 months per piece. thats at least 5 months for just 5 main pieces. add 2 weapons. you make it in 7.5 months. you need to grind reputation for each of the 5 trinket slots , and then go into heroics and hope that you will get what you want in one month's run. which makes around 2.5 months average for the rep grind for all, lets say that you got lucky, and got all of them in acceptable average time, so it took further 2 month to complete a decent trinket setup. what did it do - 11 months. lets say that, you have a good guild, and you have spent around 3 hours every night (more even on weekends) so that you did most of them in the same time, and shortened the duration to 8 months. great. now you are ready to experience endgame instances.
what ? tbc came out in february, putting 8 months makes october ? which kinda makes that you are just 4 months away (and thats in the most optimistic view) from the new expansion. great. if it takes 2 months for you to do half of the end game stuff, then you will be 2 months away from the expansion invalidating everything you have and going into grind again.
thats not a game. thats player screwing.
it would be content if they introduced new lands, new adventures without introducing new 10 levels or 20 levels worth of reputation grind to the game along with again 20 levels or worth item grind into the game.
but it isnt. its a well planned timesink to tie player money.
A MMO is not meant to be winnable. You don't get to the "end" and sit above everyone, unassailable. The game moves on. You move with it. If you want a game where you can be permanently better than everyone else, go somewhere else.
its not about winning. its about fun, and not being put in a sucker's place from which they milk your cash while keeping you busy like a bee trying to keep up with the game and the crowd. they are making into a second career. which is not within the definitions of fun, games.
i lived through swg. if it wasnt for guild members doing a brief stint with wow, i wouldnt stand wow that long.
but after some time it really gets totally boring - they made the game into a second job. i cant just spare 3 hours a night grinding this and that in order to be able to keep up with the game and hope to see any end game.
especially after they turned the game into a timesink/cashcow by introducing 10 new levels, endless reputation -> item -> item set grinds, by deciding to introduce an expansion each year.
now people who bought tbc are going to go into a new zone without ever seeing endgame tbc instances and being able to complete half of a set with wotlk.
and you should have told them they should have invested while they were overselling their lines. it doesnt matter what percentage of p2p is legal or not, the fact is they are not able to provide what they promised. the debate should be on that, not p2p's legality.
Newsflash : if a poster on slashdot and a long time resident of internet doesnt know about afp, "the world's largest news agency', then it means that 'world's largest news agency' is not that much 'world's' agency.
i didnt even know they had ever existed before google. And they should also know that i will probably forget them in a short while since they are not on google anymore. they lost enormous exposure to pursue some petty cash compared to what the exposure would have brought.
they can shove their copyright up their "butté" now - for its probably useful for only doing that compared to what it might have been.
The Vatican City only became a state in 1929. Learn some history. (And, to rub lemon juice in, it isn't actually ruled by the Holy See -- though, admittedly, it and the Holy See are closely linked.)
i would advise you that, as a matter of fact.
church had been doing "charity" work since early 3rd century, with arms even reaching into administrative duties, and when charlemagne established papal states it became a state for the first time in history, not removed from existence until late 19th century. read more here :
no sire, at that time, and prior to that, getting various severe punishment due to dodging tax was a reality too. thats probably why the 'jews' who were following this new messiah asked him that question.
and i suspect you do not read posts before replying. i have asked that whether this pope is clung up on the historic, now nonexistent role of church state in middle ages.
Is the current pope rather stuck on ancient church history, at middle ages when church was actually a state ?
does god levy 'taxes' ? taxes are an earthly thing and have no place in religion. or is the pope trying to appease some circles that have done 'charity' for the church ?
After a point of wisdom one sees that there is no exact colors of white and black, but balance must always be preserved. Therefore you got your nerds going libertarian. Why ? they are more intelligent people, and apt at learning too.
Slashdot Mirror
no its not correct.
i have acceptable time to spend on a game, since its my main hobby. however, i cant put any game in a second job status. because if it was job what i was looking for in my spare time, i would have done overtime and at least made money out of it. im looking for entertainment. and endlessly trying to keep up with a game in NOT fun ways, is not something that classifies as fun for me.
it doesnt matter whether you consider it a race or not. it IS a race. if you wait and try to take your time to enjoy the content, you will find yourself alone at your level, like a relic of pretbc wow. there are people who are still maintaining "pretbc guilds". which are dwindling in numbers day by day and each and every member of them are forced to join the race because everyone moves on, and not enough people are left to maintain any pretbc event.
you cant just "take your time" in such an environment. the environment does not allow it.
Those people are very much the minority. The casual gamers are far more numerous, and our choices in the game aren't driven by what gear we need, but by which areas we haven't explored.
game is defined by what gear you need. they explicitly planned the game upon that. you hit 70, you get noticeable set pieces, but they are not even enough to start a decent endgame instance. why ? you need some number of cleverly planned top trinkets that are distributed to each class in order to keep up with the cleverly planned instances. not only one, two but all of a 10 man raid group needs those. if 2-3 lacks them, raid goes into trouble. because it is PLANNED that way.
I just got a level 60 character for the first time (I've had the game since launch). Eventually I'll see the new content, but I'm in no rush. The plaguelands, winterspring, and now the outlands have been new and fun for me, and I never had to resort to grinding for anything.
keep on dreaming. by the time you get even near 70 new expansion will have come on top of tbc, and even the people you term as casuals are going to be in new expansion. you will be forced to quit the game, or grind.
I swear sometimes I think the hardcore gamers consider themselves the elite that Blizzard should cater heavily to - but they provide the same revenue stream as a casual gamer, use more resources, and are far less numerous.
had i been a hardcore gamer, or a powergamer, or an unseasoned gamer that havent experienced being milked in a mmo before, i would still be playing wow. but im not.
nothing about wow is about skill. its about TIME.
the more you grind, the more better equipped you become, and are allowed to participate in endgame. however, the endgame constantly runs away, with now neverending expansions. (they decided to put out 1 exp every year).
you get stronger, yet monsters get stronger too with each level. thats allright.
but, your relative strength compared to mobs NEVER changes. even it is harder to kill mobs at any given time of your equal level and playing area (instances, raid zones) than you were at level 40 or level 50. lets say thats allright too.
but what have you succeeded in 70 levels and 30 levels worth of rep/item grind ? you are now worse of as a percentage compared to average mob you have to whack than you were before. now you have to work in groups of 5 to 20, which means that you will need EVEN MORE time due to coordination, common time windows needed for gathering of the group to beat challenges etc.
what does it boil down to ?
timesink - thats not fun.
they are not introducing new "content".
what they are doing is taking dwarf, elf, tauren, human npc templates, copying them over to a new group id, giving them a fancy name like "Endless Protectors of Unending Sewers" and creating a new faction that is bent on defending the world of warcraft from incessant encroachment of evil shit. complete with a few 10 levels worth of reputation grind for new item enhancements, with new sets that one of each 5 piece drops from a different of their related copy-over template instances (or others)- which you can only even go in in heroic mode after grinding around 10 levels worth-time equivalent reputation with them, new sets that are going to totally invalidate whatever you were NOT able to complete as a set in the past year (since tbc), and which sets you wont be able to complete in shorter than 1 year so they will be valid for even a brief stint before a new expansion comes out and invalidates whatever you have with its new zone green drops, and such.
its not new content. its player screwing.
People complaining about "grinding" to 70 are usually the same people I see in 70 PvP battlegrounds wearing their level 60 PvP (or even worse, level 60 raid) gear. The "grind" from 60-70 was less than two weeks of real time (not in-game time) for me, as a casual player, and I'd only quested in half the new zones in Outland and run 1/4 of the instances.
you talk like you are not playing wow. its not the grind to 70 that matters. its the grind AFTER that.
even if you do ok, even getting one piece of arena set, which is the easiest top tier set to acquire (tier 5.5), will take 1 months per piece. thats at least 5 months for just 5 main pieces. add 2 weapons. you make it in 7.5 months. you need to grind reputation for each of the 5 trinket slots , and then go into heroics and hope that you will get what you want in one month's run. which makes around 2.5 months average for the rep grind for all, lets say that you got lucky, and got all of them in acceptable average time, so it took further 2 month to complete a decent trinket setup. what did it do - 11 months. lets say that, you have a good guild, and you have spent around 3 hours every night (more even on weekends) so that you did most of them in the same time, and shortened the duration to 8 months. great. now you are ready to experience endgame instances.
what ? tbc came out in february, putting 8 months makes october ? which kinda makes that you are just 4 months away (and thats in the most optimistic view) from the new expansion. great. if it takes 2 months for you to do half of the end game stuff, then you will be 2 months away from the expansion invalidating everything you have and going into grind again.
thats not a game. thats player screwing.
it would be content if they introduced new lands, new adventures without introducing new 10 levels or 20 levels worth of reputation grind to the game along with again 20 levels or worth item grind into the game.
but it isnt. its a well planned timesink to tie player money.
A MMO is not meant to be winnable. You don't get to the "end" and sit above everyone, unassailable. The game moves on. You move with it. If you want a game where you can be permanently better than everyone else, go somewhere else.
its not about winning. its about fun, and not being put in a sucker's place from which they milk your cash while keeping you busy like a bee trying to keep up with the game and the crowd. they are making into a second career. which is not within the definitions of fun, games.
i lived through swg. if it wasnt for guild members doing a brief stint with wow, i wouldnt stand wow that long.
but after some time it really gets totally boring - they made the game into a second job. i cant just spare 3 hours a night grinding this and that in order to be able to keep up with the game and hope to see any end game.
1 - Cancel subscription
2 - profit !!!1
especially after they turned the game into a timesink/cashcow by introducing 10 new levels, endless reputation -> item -> item set grinds, by deciding to introduce an expansion each year.
now people who bought tbc are going to go into a new zone without ever seeing endgame tbc instances and being able to complete half of a set with wotlk.
a $1-1.5 bn damages by court order wouldnt set them straight, you think ?
and you should have told them they should have invested while they were overselling their lines. it doesnt matter what percentage of p2p is legal or not, the fact is they are not able to provide what they promised. the debate should be on that, not p2p's legality.
say it ! and add a "lawsuit" to the end. Such "companies" deserve it.
It was about time for the shit to hit the fan. Let the scientology perverts face eu machine.
spoiler : eu machine will win.
eh, rather a mocking 'frenchalization' of plain old butt.
Newsflash : if a poster on slashdot and a long time resident of internet doesnt know about afp, "the world's largest news agency', then it means that 'world's largest news agency' is not that much 'world's' agency.
i didnt even know they had ever existed before google. And they should also know that i will probably forget them in a short while since they are not on google anymore. they lost enormous exposure to pursue some petty cash compared to what the exposure would have brought.
they can shove their copyright up their "butté" now - for its probably useful for only doing that compared to what it might have been.
Show the world that sweden was not unrightfully labeled as one of the foremost civil liberties countries.
its the language that that officer would understand. sue his/her pants off.
they happen again.
i would advise you that, as a matter of fact.
church had been doing "charity" work since early 3rd century, with arms even reaching into administrative duties, and when charlemagne established papal states it became a state for the first time in history, not removed from existence until late 19th century. read more here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States
elaborate
you want cookies as of this moment. also you want cheese.
no sire, at that time, and prior to that, getting various severe punishment due to dodging tax was a reality too. thats probably why the 'jews' who were following this new messiah asked him that question.
jesus of nazareth said it because otherwise romans would slaughter christians, not because it was ethical and divine.
and i suspect you do not read posts before replying. i have asked that whether this pope is clung up on the historic, now nonexistent role of church state in middle ages.
yes, and things that are god's are the area of the church, not caesar's.
Is the current pope rather stuck on ancient church history, at middle ages when church was actually a state ?
does god levy 'taxes' ? taxes are an earthly thing and have no place in religion. or is the pope trying to appease some circles that have done 'charity' for the church ?
After a point of wisdom one sees that there is no exact colors of white and black, but balance must always be preserved. Therefore you got your nerds going libertarian. Why ? they are more intelligent people, and apt at learning too.