It's worse.....at least on the iPhone they allow you to run native code.
FWIW, some of the games running on the wp7 look better than anything I've seen on the iPhone. I understand there a few reasons for wanting to run native code, but performance shouldn't be one of them.
And in the case of an exploitable bug, a patch is usually available within a few hours, not weeks, as on a "patch Tuesday" system.
Sure lord byron, now lets come back to reality. Admins aren't patching sources and compiling software with exploit fixes. They're waiting for their distro to push them, and yes, it often times takes weeks. But we'll pretend that we all live in your magical fairy FOSS land.
By your logic, linux on the server is as easily exploitable as linux on the desktop. Last time I checked, server-side linux isn't running a web browser with Java and flash plug-ins, OpenOffice, or many of the other desktop-centric things that make it more open to attack. The common theme in the replies here is that linux on the server side is secure. No shit. Go read my original response and you'll notice I made it a point to say "Desktop."
It's pretty brazen of you to imply that Windows is less secure than Linux. Put a desktop distro on linux and connect it to the internet, give it Window's marketshare and watch hackers make swiss cheese of it.
I always ponder the psychological profile of the self-righteous PC gamer. It's always boggled my mind that someone would harbor such negative feelings about someone regarding their preference of PC vs Console, or their Smartphone preference, OS preference, etc etc. The internet would be a much happier place if it wasn't filled with hateful idiots like this.
If you are generating Java boilerplate by hand then I suggest you get better tools.
If you need tools to make up for language deficiencies, I suggest you get a better language.
I never have to worry about that stuff.
It's a ton of unnecessary code that must be looked through when maintaining the software. Case in point: Androids event model. The amount of ugly, boiler plate code required makes it difficult to easily find the relevant bits of code.
you prefer to insult me and spurt anectdotal sums like "droves" rather than rationally debating the figures and facts presented.
I will concede this point and reword it: On platforms where the user is not limited to a particular development stack, people are beginning to choose.net over java. The fact that lots of people are moving to obj-c says nothing about the merits of the language itself. Instead it shows how valuable the iOS platform is. Obj-c is crap, and yes, this is my entirely subjective opinion, but consider the fact that nobody chooses to use obj-c outside of an Apple environment. So to make my point, yes, your statistics show a trend of programmers moving to obj-c and java, but only because it's the native language of its respective smartphone platform, not because it's better suited for the job.
For that claim to be true you must demonstrate that Slashdot is in error for disliking the phone and against the majority opinion.
The only error in the slashdot's general opinion is that it is uninformed. Go read the responses and none of them claim to have actually used the phone. The original comment implied that it doesn't bring anything new to the table. The first thing *anyone* will notice when using the phone is that it offers a drastically new kind of interface and way of navigating, which IMO is a very welcome change from the grid of small icons that can be paged through, and the idea digging into each individual app to get to the desired content or functionality. Whether or not someone likes this new way of using and navigating a mobile OS is entirely subjective, but whether or not it brings something new to the table is not: It certainly does. The hivemind likes comments that cater to their prejudice, so even the most uninformed comments are modded insightful at times.
What is even more absurd is the original comparison to the XBox. Pointing out an example of Microsoft penetrating a previously-thought impenetrable market as an example of why this is a bad move *still* boggles my mind. Microsoft taking the PS3's crown as next-gen console king is analogous to WP7 taking the iOS crown as mobile OS king. Only a very warped, completely nonobjective hive-mind would see the comparison and think to themselves, "Yeah, how terribly stupid of them!"
Again you have a limited grasp of the technology you are arguing about, since all you know is (a limited set of the).NET technologies. GWT is both client and server side. It is interactive and developing for it is a dream compared to crufty old page-oriented server side technologies.
Not only have I used GWT (extensively), I have contributed to the documentation and have had 3 enhancements accepted, two of which have been implemented and one of which is planned, and have reported numerous bugs, spanning from versions 1.3 to 2.0. I have done similar for many other Java frameworks. I've ate, drank and breathed java both in the enterprise and in personal projects. I can safely say I've written more Java code than I have.net code. You can keep asserting all you want that I "have a limited grasp of the technology I'm arguing about" but all it does is give me an opportunity to mock your brazen stupidity.
GWT is both client and server side.
No, it's not. From Wikipedia: "Google Web Toolkit (GWT/wt/) is an open source set of tools that allows web developers to create and maintain complex JavaScript front-end applications in Java."
Yes, it *can* communicate with the server side easily (obviously, its a big selling point) and naturally java is the best fit, but it is by no means GWT specific. You can implement the server side in anything you want -- GWT itself is entirely client-side.
Who cares about the language specification? pretty much only language hobbyists and academics.
Yes, those crazy academics with their fancy pants auto properties, event models, lambda's, *real* generics, and language integrated queries. You're absolutely right, these things don't matter. Nobody in the enterprise wants or needs these things. They love maintaining XML files and have no interest in things like fluent configuration. Writing miles of boilerplate code for events and getters and setters, complex, error prone loops to to essentially query a collection, they love doing this stuff, it's like comfort food. The *only* thing that matters is that there are a shit ton of legacy, cross platform libraries that nobody but huge enterprises use anymore. Nope, C# only gets ports of the good, relevant ones and is truly missing out on the nostalgic goodness of a stagnant language.
My point was *your* previous claim that Mono was better than Java for cross-platform work was bollox.
No, my point was that it is no worse. My original statement, infact, said "extremely viable solution." My point was, and listen closely, that Mono is certainly not a worse solution for cross-platform apps.
As far as implementation goes, why do you think the.NET licensing terms did not permit benchmarking
This is patently false. Jesus Christ dude, if you can't bother to make a single informed or true statement, why do you bother responding? Benchmarking is is explicitly granted in the license, as long as the benchmarks are against a fully patched and updated version of the framework.
In fact, both Java and.NET should lose further popularity as people move to Android and Objective-C as that is where all the market growth is. What you used to need a desktop or server for is slowly being marginalized for specialized stuff.
Translation: People are moving to languages that are used in popular mobile devices, Obj-C for iPhone and Java for Android. You're dragging the discussion out of its original context in your desperate attempt to make a half assed-argument. For modern, managed, desktop and server side applications people are moving away from java and to.net, whether its the official MS version or Mono. Again, staying within this context, nobody is moving to objective-c. But, if you want to go d
What you are saying is, "Mono works for me" although you seem to be only using ASP.NET (which is a clone of the old JSP technology
Do I need to be more specific? ASP MVC2 framework. A modern, robust framework that is by no means considered old or a clone of JSP. And yes, it is supported by mono. I guess I'll await your response saying that.NET copied MVC from Java, as if it were either true or relevant.
people have moved on to GWT these days
I don't know what planet you live on where GWT is some sort of defacto replacement for JSP. For starters, one is a client side technology that doesn't even run in a JVM (its compiled down to javascript for christ sake) and one is a server side technology. Did you mean JSF? And when I say JSF, I mean one of the many ambiguous yet slightly different implementations of JSF. The same applies to any java technology really: A jungle of implementations that don't entirely conform to the spec, a huge pile of fragmentation.
(derived from the JVM's design principles but deliberately made specific to Windows to suit the vendor's strategic interests). Laughable.
This is utterly false and complete vitriol. I challenge you to dig up a single, verifiable reference that somehow makes.NET as a specification more tied to Windows than any other platform.
I do a lot of work on OS X and it works seamlessly when I move it to Win XP & 7 32-bit and 64-bit and Ubuntu.
Bollox. My Java applications (both JEE and GUI) work sweetly without porting effort.
All the same with Mono, so what exactly is your point?
You don't even know what *major* libraries are and aren't supported by Mono
Huh? How exactly do you come to this conclusion? I fully understand, which makes it possible to write cross-platform software. News Flash: Java has platform specific libraries too. Anyone wanting to write platform independent software knows not to use them. It's no different with mono. You seem to be implying that every last bit of code written in Java is magically cross platform, as if it doesn't take a concerted effort to write platform independent code. You sir, are a moron.
it's just superior to.NET in cross-platform
As far as the spec for each language and their implementation is concerned,.NET is the superior spec from a technical standpoint. Java has a far bigger cross-platform ecosystem, but people are jumping ship and moving over to.NET in droves. Any relevant library that exists in java has made its way over to.NET: Hibernate and JUnit (as NHibernate and NUnit), to name a few.
I really don't care if you prefer java, as long as I don't have to maintain your crappy software. But your preference doesn't make java superior.
Can you point to somewhere else where it is, in fact, being vigorously defended?
Defended? I'm not defending anything. That's the thing about slashdotters, they are so emotionally bound to their preferred technologies, and harbor so much hate for others that they see any discussion as either attacking or defending. I was giving a brief, objective review.
You are perfectly capable of doing your own google search for other reviews. You'll be surprised to find that once you leave the slashdot vacuum, wp7 has actually impressed quite a few people. I don't considered myself jaded by an inherent hatred for all things Microsoft, I just came off of 8 months using Googles (former) flagship, linux powered android phone so it's not as if I don't have a good basis for comparison. Whether or not you want to see the MS offering fail, or whether or not it was considered a launch day success is completely irrelevant when assessing the effectiveness and design of the operating system.
By the way, calling someone a "shill" is about the lamest thing you can do. If you want to attack straw men, go hang out on reddit.
Because *all* of the.NET libraries do not work seemlessly on all platforms.
When is the last time you used mono? Sounds to me like you're basing your arguments off of mono circa 2-3 years ago. Mono is one of the most actively developed products in FOSS and each release marks a significant improvement.
Have you ever tried to port a.NET application written using the Microsoft toolset to other platforms.
Yes. In fact, you can compile.net assemblies using Microsoft's toolset and literally copy the resulting binaries over (in the case of ASP.NET, at least, I haven't done this with winforms). Microsoft's toolset compiles down to the same, standardized intermediary language that mono has no problem using.
Java can do it easily, the.NET and Mono combo falls far short of this.
No, ironically, it can't do it easily. Java's implementations are far more fragmented (I'm looking at you, OS X) than Mono, *by far.*
. Perhaps you're ignorant if you've never tried to work with getting a complex.NET application working off Windows (without resorting to horrible platform-specific hacks).
Most people who have actually used mono recently would argue that.NET's platform abstraction is far better than Java's. Getting any complex application, whether java or.net, running on a new platform isn't trivial, although your assertion that its wildy easier with java is absurd.
You labeled me as extremely ignorant without even waiting to hear my reply
Trust me, now that I've heard your reply, I'm even more confident in my original statement.
.NET is technically superior to Java in almost every way. But, this is the vacuum known as slashdot, where an extremely viable solution will be cast off as "offering little advantage" simply because it is associated with Microsoft. It's cool. You can go on writing mountains of boiler plate code in your horribly stagnant neo-cobol.
If you want a cohesive user experience, these things are necessary. MS learned this from Apple. If you do things the android way, you sacrifice the user experience. Poorly written 3rd party apps can degrade the most basic functionality of the phone. It's a tradeoff, and MS went with usability.
Slashdot Mirror
Most of the guys at the top making these decisions are old and don't understand how the internet works. It's kinda cute, really.
I think RMS arguments, all of them, can be summed up concisely as:
STOP LIKING THINGS I DON'T LIKE
>My favorite is "being offensive". Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
Hating Microsoft is soooo 2008.
ilomilo, which was developed using XNA and C#. The Harvest is another game, although I'm not sure if it uses XNA.
It's worse.....at least on the iPhone they allow you to run native code.
FWIW, some of the games running on the wp7 look better than anything I've seen on the iPhone. I understand there a few reasons for wanting to run native code, but performance shouldn't be one of them.
I'm sorry, I couldn't understand what you were saying. Please repeat yourself once you're done chewing and swallowing Richard Stallmans toejam.
We'll say Ubuntu, because it is marketed to your "average" computer user.
And in the case of an exploitable bug, a patch is usually available within a few hours, not weeks, as on a "patch Tuesday" system.
Sure lord byron, now lets come back to reality. Admins aren't patching sources and compiling software with exploit fixes. They're waiting for their distro to push them, and yes, it often times takes weeks. But we'll pretend that we all live in your magical fairy FOSS land.
By your logic, linux on the server is as easily exploitable as linux on the desktop. Last time I checked, server-side linux isn't running a web browser with Java and flash plug-ins, OpenOffice, or many of the other desktop-centric things that make it more open to attack.
The common theme in the replies here is that linux on the server side is secure. No shit. Go read my original response and you'll notice I made it a point to say "Desktop."
Finally check out what most ISPs do. Yes, they run GNU/Linux, not even because it's cheaper and more stable, but also because its more secure.
Comparing linux on the server to linux on the desktop, in terms of security, is comparing apples to oranges.
It's pretty brazen of you to imply that Windows is less secure than Linux. Put a desktop distro on linux and connect it to the internet, give it Window's marketshare and watch hackers make swiss cheese of it.
I always ponder the psychological profile of the self-righteous PC gamer. It's always boggled my mind that someone would harbor such negative feelings about someone regarding their preference of PC vs Console, or their Smartphone preference, OS preference, etc etc. The internet would be a much happier place if it wasn't filled with hateful idiots like this.
If you are generating Java boilerplate by hand then I suggest you get better tools.
If you need tools to make up for language deficiencies, I suggest you get a better language.
I never have to worry about that stuff.
It's a ton of unnecessary code that must be looked through when maintaining the software. Case in point: Androids event model. The amount of ugly, boiler plate code required makes it difficult to easily find the relevant bits of code.
you prefer to insult me and spurt anectdotal sums like "droves" rather than rationally debating the figures and facts presented.
I will concede this point and reword it: On platforms where the user is not limited to a particular development stack, people are beginning to choose .net over java. The fact that lots of people are moving to obj-c says nothing about the merits of the language itself. Instead it shows how valuable the iOS platform is. Obj-c is crap, and yes, this is my entirely subjective opinion, but consider the fact that nobody chooses to use obj-c outside of an Apple environment. So to make my point, yes, your statistics show a trend of programmers moving to obj-c and java, but only because it's the native language of its respective smartphone platform, not because it's better suited for the job.
For that claim to be true you must demonstrate that Slashdot is in error for disliking the phone and against the majority opinion.
The only error in the slashdot's general opinion is that it is uninformed. Go read the responses and none of them claim to have actually used the phone. The original comment implied that it doesn't bring anything new to the table. The first thing *anyone* will notice when using the phone is that it offers a drastically new kind of interface and way of navigating, which IMO is a very welcome change from the grid of small icons that can be paged through, and the idea digging into each individual app to get to the desired content or functionality. Whether or not someone likes this new way of using and navigating a mobile OS is entirely subjective, but whether or not it brings something new to the table is not: It certainly does. The hivemind likes comments that cater to their prejudice, so even the most uninformed comments are modded insightful at times.
What is even more absurd is the original comparison to the XBox. Pointing out an example of Microsoft penetrating a previously-thought impenetrable market as an example of why this is a bad move *still* boggles my mind. Microsoft taking the PS3's crown as next-gen console king is analogous to WP7 taking the iOS crown as mobile OS king. Only a very warped, completely nonobjective hive-mind would see the comparison and think to themselves, "Yeah, how terribly stupid of them!"
Again you have a limited grasp of the technology you are arguing about, since all you know is (a limited set of the) .NET technologies. GWT is both client and server side. It is interactive and developing for it is a dream compared to crufty old page-oriented server side technologies.
Not only have I used GWT (extensively), I have contributed to the documentation and have had 3 enhancements accepted, two of which have been implemented and one of which is planned, and have reported numerous bugs, spanning from versions 1.3 to 2.0. I have done similar for many other Java frameworks. I've ate, drank and breathed java both in the enterprise and in personal projects. I can safely say I've written more Java code than I have .net code. You can keep asserting all you want that I "have a limited grasp of the technology I'm arguing about" but all it does is give me an opportunity to mock your brazen stupidity.
GWT is both client and server side.
No, it's not. From Wikipedia: "Google Web Toolkit (GWT /wt/) is an open source set of tools that allows web developers to create and maintain complex JavaScript front-end applications in Java."
Yes, it *can* communicate with the server side easily (obviously, its a big selling point) and naturally java is the best fit, but it is by no means GWT specific. You can implement the server side in anything you want -- GWT itself is entirely client-side.
Who cares about the language specification? pretty much only language hobbyists and academics.
Yes, those crazy academics with their fancy pants auto properties, event models, lambda's, *real* generics, and language integrated queries. You're absolutely right, these things don't matter. Nobody in the enterprise wants or needs these things. They love maintaining XML files and have no interest in things like fluent configuration. Writing miles of boilerplate code for events and getters and setters, complex, error prone loops to to essentially query a collection, they love doing this stuff, it's like comfort food. The *only* thing that matters is that there are a shit ton of legacy, cross platform libraries that nobody but huge enterprises use anymore. Nope, C# only gets ports of the good, relevant ones and is truly missing out on the nostalgic goodness of a stagnant language.
My point was *your* previous claim that Mono was better than Java for cross-platform work was bollox.
No, my point was that it is no worse. My original statement, infact, said "extremely viable solution." My point was, and listen closely, that Mono is certainly not a worse solution for cross-platform apps.
As far as implementation goes, why do you think the .NET licensing terms did not permit benchmarking
This is patently false. Jesus Christ dude, if you can't bother to make a single informed or true statement, why do you bother responding? Benchmarking is is explicitly granted in the license, as long as the benchmarks are against a fully patched and updated version of the framework.
In fact, both Java and .NET should lose further popularity as people move to Android and Objective-C as that is where all the market growth is. What you used to need a desktop or server for is slowly being marginalized for specialized stuff.
Translation: People are moving to languages that are used in popular mobile devices, Obj-C for iPhone and Java for Android. You're dragging the discussion out of its original context in your desperate attempt to make a half assed-argument. For modern, managed, desktop and server side applications people are moving away from java and to .net, whether its the official MS version or Mono. Again, staying within this context, nobody is moving to objective-c. But, if you want to go d
What you are saying is, "Mono works for me" although you seem to be only using ASP.NET (which is a clone of the old JSP technology
Do I need to be more specific? ASP MVC2 framework. A modern, robust framework that is by no means considered old or a clone of JSP. And yes, it is supported by mono. I guess I'll await your response saying that .NET copied MVC from Java, as if it were either true or relevant.
people have moved on to GWT these days
I don't know what planet you live on where GWT is some sort of defacto replacement for JSP. For starters, one is a client side technology that doesn't even run in a JVM (its compiled down to javascript for christ sake) and one is a server side technology. Did you mean JSF? And when I say JSF, I mean one of the many ambiguous yet slightly different implementations of JSF. The same applies to any java technology really: A jungle of implementations that don't entirely conform to the spec, a huge pile of fragmentation.
(derived from the JVM's design principles but deliberately made specific to Windows to suit the vendor's strategic interests). Laughable.
This is utterly false and complete vitriol. I challenge you to dig up a single, verifiable reference that somehow makes .NET as a specification more tied to Windows than any other platform.
I do a lot of work on OS X and it works seamlessly when I move it to Win XP & 7 32-bit and 64-bit and Ubuntu.
Bollox. My Java applications (both JEE and GUI) work sweetly without porting effort.
All the same with Mono, so what exactly is your point?
You don't even know what *major* libraries are and aren't supported by Mono
Huh? How exactly do you come to this conclusion? I fully understand, which makes it possible to write cross-platform software. News Flash: Java has platform specific libraries too. Anyone wanting to write platform independent software knows not to use them. It's no different with mono. You seem to be implying that every last bit of code written in Java is magically cross platform, as if it doesn't take a concerted effort to write platform independent code. You sir, are a moron.
it's just superior to .NET in cross-platform
As far as the spec for each language and their implementation is concerned, .NET is the superior spec from a technical standpoint. Java has a far bigger cross-platform ecosystem, but people are jumping ship and moving over to .NET in droves. Any relevant library that exists in java has made its way over to .NET: Hibernate and JUnit (as NHibernate and NUnit), to name a few.
I really don't care if you prefer java, as long as I don't have to maintain your crappy software. But your preference doesn't make java superior.
Can you point to somewhere else where it is, in fact, being vigorously defended?
Defended? I'm not defending anything. That's the thing about slashdotters, they are so emotionally bound to their preferred technologies, and harbor so much hate for others that they see any discussion as either attacking or defending. I was giving a brief, objective review.
You are perfectly capable of doing your own google search for other reviews. You'll be surprised to find that once you leave the slashdot vacuum, wp7 has actually impressed quite a few people. I don't considered myself jaded by an inherent hatred for all things Microsoft, I just came off of 8 months using Googles (former) flagship, linux powered android phone so it's not as if I don't have a good basis for comparison. Whether or not you want to see the MS offering fail, or whether or not it was considered a launch day success is completely irrelevant when assessing the effectiveness and design of the operating system.
By the way, calling someone a "shill" is about the lamest thing you can do. If you want to attack straw men, go hang out on reddit.
Because *all* of the .NET libraries do not work seemlessly on all platforms.
When is the last time you used mono? Sounds to me like you're basing your arguments off of mono circa 2-3 years ago. Mono is one of the most actively developed products in FOSS and each release marks a significant improvement.
Have you ever tried to port a .NET application written using the Microsoft toolset to other platforms.
Yes. In fact, you can compile .net assemblies using Microsoft's toolset and literally copy the resulting binaries over (in the case of ASP.NET, at least, I haven't done this with winforms). Microsoft's toolset compiles down to the same, standardized intermediary language that mono has no problem using.
Java can do it easily, the .NET and Mono combo falls far short of this.
No, ironically, it can't do it easily. Java's implementations are far more fragmented (I'm looking at you, OS X) than Mono, *by far.*
. Perhaps you're ignorant if you've never tried to work with getting a complex .NET application working off Windows (without resorting to horrible platform-specific hacks).
Most people who have actually used mono recently would argue that .NET's platform abstraction is far better than Java's. Getting any complex application, whether java or .net, running on a new platform isn't trivial, although your assertion that its wildy easier with java is absurd.
You labeled me as extremely ignorant without even waiting to hear my reply
Trust me, now that I've heard your reply, I'm even more confident in my original statement.
.NET is not truly portable (and Mono is insufficient).
Please explain why mono is insufficient. This is an extremely ignorant statement on your behalf.
with .Net offering little advantage
.NET is technically superior to Java in almost every way. But, this is the vacuum known as slashdot, where an extremely viable solution will be cast off as "offering little advantage" simply because it is associated with Microsoft. It's cool. You can go on writing mountains of boiler plate code in your horribly stagnant neo-cobol.
you are the only person defending this platform
Maybe here on slashdot, but oh, I forgot, this is the epicenter of objectivity, *especially* when it comes to anything Microsoft.
You don't get out often do you?
what's wrong with the way iOS 4 (and now WP7) does multitasking?
Nothing, really. It's just something for neckbeards to scream about.
If you want a cohesive user experience, these things are necessary. MS learned this from Apple. If you do things the android way, you sacrifice the user experience. Poorly written 3rd party apps can degrade the most basic functionality of the phone. It's a tradeoff, and MS went with usability.