There should be no ideological battle here. By all accounts the FBI has the legal right to access the contents of this phone. If you want to make sure that the police does not abuse its powers, make it more difficult to grant a warrant in the first place. But once a warrant has been granted, the request is legal, period.
Not to "Godwin" you; but everything the Nazi's did was LEGAL, too.
Baby steps. Not one VR provider will nail it first go especially if they aren't willing to wait for the right moment like Apple did.
Most new products are like this.
Until Apple yells "You're doing it WRONG! You're doing it WRONG! Give me the damn mouse and let me drive for a minute... there! THAT'S how you get past that level to the next level!".
BTW, I read somewhere recently that Apple is on a VR/AR hiring spree...
So you're agreeing with him? They have been "selling their users" for years now.
Suddenly they decide to stop making money despite being super greedy and high margin for everything else.
Excuse me for thinking that this discontinuation is just a PR move for people like you and are just folding it in elsewhere. After all, they're the company that boldly claimed that their users are effectively stupid for believing their ads: "no reasonable person would believe our ads"
Your ridiculous theory might have a leg to stand on, were it not for the fact that Apple has made ZERO "hay" about this in the mainstream media.
In fact, that's why I linked to the Apple Developer site: Because, other than some Apple fan sites (which tend to report everything Apple-Related (Duh!)), Which I didn't want to get lambasted here for linking-to, that was actually the only other source for that news that I could find in the first couple of pages of Google results.
So, if Apple cancelled iAd for the PR, They need to fire their marketing team, because they sure failed at making "News" out of it!
No. Google, Samsung, HTC all have this built in option to allow for external sources, even in the Chinese Market.
Anyone at any time can install any non-government sanctioned software. They can follow the rules and still get away with allowing the user to power to do / install whatever dissident behavior they want.
Why would this particular Chinese Regime allow that kind of behavior?
To get the latest data from the phone, Apple devised a cunning plan: If your iPhone is set up to make backups to iCloud, it will do that even if locked when you just take the iPhone to a place with a WiFi network that it knows, plug it into power, and it backs up.
Ok, so that's what Apple was talking about in their FAQ. Thanks for the clarification!
Well, this does prove a few things:
1. Apple IS trying to be helpful to the investigation. Interesting that this is SO Not being reported that even most tech-savvy people like Slashdot readers don't seem to understand it.
2. Apple HASN'T been giving away secrets to the FBI as a matter of course; or it would be reasonable to assume that not only would the FBI already know about the "trusted network" iCloud backup "hole", but would know better NOT to change the iCloud Password.
3. Apple DOES consider this to be an extraordinary case; otherwise, it wouldn't have exposed the above vulnerability to the FBI.
4. Apple DOES truly believe that the Gummint is going too far with it's request for Apple to develop FBiOS.
5. Apple HAS been telling the truth to the Gummint, the Court, and to the Public.
IOW, all the bullshit in the media about "Apple marketing to Terrists", "Apple just trying to protect its marketing", "Of course Apple helps the Gummint at every turn", and "This is all just Theater", are ALL demonstrably FALSE...
Once I see Apple actually and actively take a stand against people-as-a-product, I'll grant them the respect they rightly deserve for that.
And what, pray tell, would meet your criteria as "actively tak[eing] a stand against...", and for that matter, what is Your Highness' definition of "people-as-product"?
Speaking of companies not having feelings, I'm pretty sure that iAd was cancelled not because of a moral imperative on the part of management; but because it was a huge financial bust, and was simply not worth the Administrative costs to keep it running.
Have you been arrested for revealing the fact that the Constitution was usurped and stripped of it's power long ago? Have your family been threatened to stop you from revealing that fact? Are you harassed by law enforcement officers (not private citizens or companies) because of your knowledge of the effective invalidation of the Constitution? Have you been killed because you're seen as having privileged knowledge? Forced onto public television, to read a prepared "confession" and then disappear forever into a prison system that has absolutely no legitimate ways out?
Obviously not. It's still working, that's why.
And yet, I had the balls to actually sign my post, where you...
No, but in over 35 years of embedded software development I've never seen anything counter-based that doesn't work that way yet.
>> You're ASSUMING it's that easy. But do you actually KNOW that it is?
You're ASSUMING it isn't that easy. But do you actually KNOW that it isn't?
I'll see your 35 years of embedded development and raise you an extra 7 or so.
Truth is, we are both just guessing; but I just gotta feel that something that important is not just hanging on a "counter- -" statement sitting out there is some ObjC code.
Why is it the government can't desolder the flash chips from the phone, put them into a custom circuit, extract the encrypted data then brute force attack the data until they guess the key, all without even using iOS? They can tap into undersea fiber optic cables but can't do this?!? Something smells fishy to me.
It's worse than that!
Apple already GAVE the FBI the iCloud Backup of the Phone (see "Is there any other way you can help the FBI?"). But the Numbnutz FBI couldn't wait to change the iCloud Password, and so now, even APPLE can't Decrypt the Backup.
However, there is absolutely NO reason the Gummint can't get a few hundred of their Quantum computers working on that encrypted backup; but nobody EVER talks about that, do they?
Yeah I'm not buying it. They're just saying that to put the government off.
How long would it take for one developer with the source code and some pre-existing familiarity with it to find and change the retry counter from 10 to either disabled or at least some *really* big number?
I'm guessing minutes.
You're ASSUMING it's that easy. But do you actually KNOW that it is?
Having said that, I support Apple's position, but I think they're being disingenuous with that claim, unless they're counting the lawyer's time in that figure.
And you know this because:
1. You work at Apple as a Developer in the iOS Division, and have intimate knowledge of the Source Code and Hardware involved.
2. You have spoken with someone who works at Apple as a Developer in the iOS Division, and they assured you that it would be as simple as that.
3. You have seen something published by Apple that categorically states that as a fact.
4. You THINK you know how simple it would be in a non-secure design, and without the inherent dangers of having a unknown error cause the destruction of the very data the Federal Bureau of Incineration is trying to retrieve?
5. You're simply a Pontificating, Apple-Hating Moron.
If Apple cared about "protect[ing] our customers' personal data [apple.com]" as it claims to Apple wouldn't distribute proprietary, user-subjugating software to its users.
Conveniently Forgetting, of course, it's massive contributions to several F/OSS Projects, and it's release of several NEW F/OSS Projects (Bonjour, WebKit, LaunchD, GrandCentralDispatch, Klang, OpenCL, Swift, etc).
So, you can just FOAD, Neckbeard!
Now, go back to your Mom's basement and leave us grownups alone.
And don't forget the growing pile of Amicus Briefs, most significantly, even from their competitors.
Even Microsoft is smart enough to file one, even after their High Priest (Gates) came out and publically stuck his foot in his mouth about the subject.
Also, nice impartial language in the summary, eds...
Give 'em a break. They all used to work for the National Enquirer. Besides, from what I can tell, "Impartial Language" apparently isn't taught anymore in Journalism classes.
They have said:
> Yes, it is certainly possible to create an entirely new operating system to undermine our security features as the government wants.
Well, I agree that those two statements SEEM somewhat contradictory at first; but they can actually both be true.
The iPhone that was used in San Ber'Dino (sorry, Zappa reference!) was an iPhone 5c. According to Wikipedia, that particular model was shipped with iOS 7, which I infer Apple could break into.
So, what we DON'T know (at least I don't) is whether that phone was ever Updated to iOS 8.
That means it could easily be true that Apple could break into this particular phone (if it is still running a version of iOS 7), and that it is impossible for Apple to break into a phone that is running iOS 8 (or above).
Slashdot Mirror
My guess he realizes Apples argument is nonsensical gibberish.
Hmmm. The over TWO DOZEN Amicus Briefs filed in support of Apple would tend to disagree...
Yes, I know I misused an apostrophe. It has been a long day.
There should be no ideological battle here. By all accounts the FBI has the legal right to access the contents of this phone. If you want to make sure that the police does not abuse its powers, make it more difficult to grant a warrant in the first place. But once a warrant has been granted, the request is legal, period.
Not to "Godwin" you; but everything the Nazi's did was LEGAL, too.
If you're not strong enough to attack real monsters then you invent straw men and attack those. We're humans, it's what we do.
GREAT Answer!
Baby steps. Not one VR provider will nail it first go especially if they aren't willing to wait for the right moment like Apple did.
Most new products are like this.
Until Apple yells "You're doing it WRONG! You're doing it WRONG! Give me the damn mouse and let me drive for a minute... there! THAT'S how you get past that level to the next level!".
BTW, I read somewhere recently that Apple is on a VR/AR hiring spree...
So you're agreeing with him? They have been "selling their users" for years now.
Suddenly they decide to stop making money despite being super greedy and high margin for everything else.
Excuse me for thinking that this discontinuation is just a PR move for people like you and are just folding it in elsewhere. After all, they're the company that boldly claimed that their users are effectively stupid for believing their ads: "no reasonable person would believe our ads"
Your ridiculous theory might have a leg to stand on, were it not for the fact that Apple has made ZERO "hay" about this in the mainstream media.
In fact, that's why I linked to the Apple Developer site: Because, other than some Apple fan sites (which tend to report everything Apple-Related (Duh!)), Which I didn't want to get lambasted here for linking-to, that was actually the only other source for that news that I could find in the first couple of pages of Google results.
So, if Apple cancelled iAd for the PR, They need to fire their marketing team, because they sure failed at making "News" out of it!
No. Google, Samsung, HTC all have this built in option to allow for external sources, even in the Chinese Market.
Anyone at any time can install any non-government sanctioned software. They can follow the rules and still get away with allowing the user to power to do / install whatever dissident behavior they want.
Why would this particular Chinese Regime allow that kind of behavior?
To get the latest data from the phone, Apple devised a cunning plan: If your iPhone is set up to make backups to iCloud, it will do that even if locked when you just take the iPhone to a place with a WiFi network that it knows, plug it into power, and it backs up.
Ok, so that's what Apple was talking about in their FAQ. Thanks for the clarification!
Well, this does prove a few things:
1. Apple IS trying to be helpful to the investigation. Interesting that this is SO Not being reported that even most tech-savvy people like Slashdot readers don't seem to understand it.
2. Apple HASN'T been giving away secrets to the FBI as a matter of course; or it would be reasonable to assume that not only would the FBI already know about the "trusted network" iCloud backup "hole", but would know better NOT to change the iCloud Password.
3. Apple DOES consider this to be an extraordinary case; otherwise, it wouldn't have exposed the above vulnerability to the FBI.
4. Apple DOES truly believe that the Gummint is going too far with it's request for Apple to develop FBiOS.
5. Apple HAS been telling the truth to the Gummint, the Court, and to the Public.
IOW, all the bullshit in the media about "Apple marketing to Terrists", "Apple just trying to protect its marketing", "Of course Apple helps the Gummint at every turn", and "This is all just Theater", are ALL demonstrably FALSE...
Once I see Apple actually and actively take a stand against people-as-a-product, I'll grant them the respect they rightly deserve for that.
And what, pray tell, would meet your criteria as "actively tak[eing] a stand against...", and for that matter, what is Your Highness' definition of "people-as-product"?
Speaking of companies not having feelings, I'm pretty sure that iAd was cancelled not because of a moral imperative on the part of management; but because it was a huge financial bust, and was simply not worth the Administrative costs to keep it running.
Do you honestly think that Google/Samsung/HTC/LG, et al. DON'T make concessions
So it's A-OK as long as everyone's doing it? This is the bandwagon fallacy. Here's a list of common logical fallacies which you may find useful.
That's not what I meant, and you should know that.
I was bitching about the piling-on against Apple, not attempting to excuse the sort of behavior that those me-too Apple-Haters were alluding to.
Sure we do.
Have you been arrested for revealing the fact that the Constitution was usurped and stripped of it's power long ago? Have your family been threatened to stop you from revealing that fact? Are you harassed by law enforcement officers (not private citizens or companies) because of your knowledge of the effective invalidation of the Constitution? Have you been killed because you're seen as having privileged knowledge? Forced onto public television, to read a prepared "confession" and then disappear forever into a prison system that has absolutely no legitimate ways out?
Obviously not. It's still working, that's why.
And yet, I had the balls to actually sign my post, where you...
OK, I'll choose 5. Thanks for signing your comment, Apple-Hating Moron.
Ooo, the equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?"
Impressive, PeeWee!
No, but in over 35 years of embedded software development I've never seen anything counter-based that doesn't work that way yet.
>> You're ASSUMING it's that easy. But do you actually KNOW that it is?
You're ASSUMING it isn't that easy. But do you actually KNOW that it isn't?
I'll see your 35 years of embedded development and raise you an extra 7 or so.
Truth is, we are both just guessing; but I just gotta feel that something that important is not just hanging on a "counter- -" statement sitting out there is some ObjC code.
Why is it the government can't desolder the flash chips from the phone, put them into a custom circuit, extract the encrypted data then brute force attack the data until they guess the key, all without even using iOS? They can tap into undersea fiber optic cables but can't do this?!? Something smells fishy to me.
It's worse than that!
Apple already GAVE the FBI the iCloud Backup of the Phone (see "Is there any other way you can help the FBI?"). But the Numbnutz FBI couldn't wait to change the iCloud Password, and so now, even APPLE can't Decrypt the Backup.
However, there is absolutely NO reason the Gummint can't get a few hundred of their Quantum computers working on that encrypted backup; but nobody EVER talks about that, do they?
Wonder why?
Simple as that.
That's ok. Neither do we.
Shows just how far we've slipped down the hole to tyranny.
+20 DoublePlus INSIGHTFUL!
You, sir, have won a Free Internets!
>> Apple said seven people for up to four weeks
Yeah I'm not buying it. They're just saying that to put the government off. How long would it take for one developer with the source code and some pre-existing familiarity with it to find and change the retry counter from 10 to either disabled or at least some *really* big number? I'm guessing minutes.
You're ASSUMING it's that easy. But do you actually KNOW that it is?
Having said that, I support Apple's position, but I think they're being disingenuous with that claim, unless they're counting the lawyer's time in that figure.
And you know this because:
1. You work at Apple as a Developer in the iOS Division, and have intimate knowledge of the Source Code and Hardware involved.
2. You have spoken with someone who works at Apple as a Developer in the iOS Division, and they assured you that it would be as simple as that.
3. You have seen something published by Apple that categorically states that as a fact.
4. You THINK you know how simple it would be in a non-secure design, and without the inherent dangers of having a unknown error cause the destruction of the very data the Federal Bureau of Incineration is trying to retrieve?
5. You're simply a Pontificating, Apple-Hating Moron.
Choose one.
Ohh, they sell targeted advertisements. How is that not people as a product?
iAd is being Discontinued as of June 30th.
DO try to keep up.
If Apple cared about "protect[ing] our customers' personal data [apple.com]" as it claims to Apple wouldn't distribute proprietary, user-subjugating software to its users.
Conveniently Forgetting, of course, it's massive contributions to several F/OSS Projects, and it's release of several NEW F/OSS Projects (Bonjour, WebKit, LaunchD, GrandCentralDispatch, Klang, OpenCL, Swift, etc).
So, you can just FOAD, Neckbeard!
Now, go back to your Mom's basement and leave us grownups alone.
That's China's problem, not Apple's.
Apple's abdication of responsibility is a serious problem and intellectually dishonest.
Do you honestly think that Google/Samsung/HTC/LG, et al. DON'T make concessions to allow their crap to be sold in China, too?
YOU'RE the one that's being "Intellectually Dishonest", bub.
I've been hating Apple ever since I first used a Mac. (loved the ][series though)
Don'tcha think that THIRTY-TWO YEARS is a pretty long time to carry a grudge?
Do yourself a favor: Take a look at a Mac made in this Decade. You might be surprised at how far they've come...
Apple really does have the high ground.
And don't forget the growing pile of Amicus Briefs, most significantly, even from their competitors.
Even Microsoft is smart enough to file one, even after their High Priest (Gates) came out and publically stuck his foot in his mouth about the subject.
Also, nice impartial language in the summary, eds...
Give 'em a break. They all used to work for the National Enquirer. Besides, from what I can tell, "Impartial Language" apparently isn't taught anymore in Journalism classes.
They have said: > Yes, it is certainly possible to create an entirely new operating system to undermine our security features as the government wants.
Well, I agree that those two statements SEEM somewhat contradictory at first; but they can actually both be true.
The iPhone that was used in San Ber'Dino (sorry, Zappa reference!) was an iPhone 5c. According to Wikipedia, that particular model was shipped with iOS 7, which I infer Apple could break into.
So, what we DON'T know (at least I don't) is whether that phone was ever Updated to iOS 8.
That means it could easily be true that Apple could break into this particular phone (if it is still running a version of iOS 7), and that it is impossible for Apple to break into a phone that is running iOS 8 (or above).