But, I am curious... what do you do about the other risks I identify? (E.g., non-local mail passes through other uncontrolled servers? I presume you're concerned about those as well, and I'd like the benefit of the solutions you've worked out.)
Heh, I wish. But now you're talking about privacy, which is a bit different from security. I don't really believe that we have privacy here in the states -- maybe with PGP, but good luck getting most of your clients to use it.:) My concern is accounts being compromised by malicious users, which as I mentioned elsewhere did happen to me almost three years ago when I was using the browser for mail.
The first post I replied to said nothing about "reliability", but I'll address that too, since you said it's a requirement for you. GMail has been more reliable than any corporate-managed email server I worked on in my technology years (err, decades).
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I do use Gmail. Reliability is Gmail's strong suit, IMO. It would cost me quite a bit to run my own IMAP servers as well as Gmail runs theirs. In fact, in over two years I think once I couldn't get my mail -- for about 15 minutes! That's just killer uptime, and I love them for that.
But I access it via IMAP with TBird on my Mac, mutt on my Linux boxen, and Versamail with my Treo. When I need to use an untrusted host (which I do almost daily) I use a thumb drive preloaded with Puppy Linux, using mutt for the MUA. At home I back up all my mail on my Mac using Thunderbird. It's super easy.
I spend nearly no time at all to maintain this system and not even a hiccup in two years' time. I highly recommend it. Of course, there is no perfect security. But if my accounts get compromised at least I'll know it wasn't because I was careless.:)
I didn't say IMAP was risk-free, but it doesn't get half the focus browsers do from the script kiddies and crackers. Nearly three years ago I did have 2 webmail accounts compromised -- and I had an excellent password, it wasn't stored in the browser, and I certainly never tolerated anyone looking over my shoulder (and if you somehow did, good luck -- it's nothing for me to memorize a 30 character password:). But it's never happened using IMAP, not once. Of course, I don't go to Starbuck's to check my email either. At present I consider the riskiest element of my set-up to be my Palm using Versamail on VZW's network. Used to absolutely give me the willies to use that, but now I've had plenty of experience doing it with no problems so far.
So what? So.. I'm back to... aren't you exaggerating the risk and danger here?
I don't think so. But then the way I work requires me to have reliable accounts that don't get pwned. It's a simple matter of consistency == trust. I guess not everyone feels that way. But I'll bet you will, when the day comes that you're negotiating something important and you get locked out of your own account. Also, when you answer valid security concerns with "so what?", it certainly triggers a red flag for me. I sure wouldn't want that dismissive an attitude toward security on my team. Of course you're correct that there are always risks, but does that mean it's okay to live on Cap'n Crunch and pudding pops because "everyone gets sick anyway"?:)
On a related note, are there any desktop clients that do have support for these features?
Well, as I have actually seen my gmail accounts' web interface maybe twice each in the two years I've used them (just to administer settings), I'm not certain about exactly what you mean. All MUAs with which I am familiar will let you oragnize emails very easily in at least two ways (labels and folders), and they all thread by subject easily enough as well. Email search is present and works perfectly in TBird and Evolution, and I think Kmail too, IIRC. Is there something extra I've missed?
Course I don't even get why people use email anymore. It's pretty stupid, really. IM, telephones, and SMS are more than enough for me. I tend to not even answer emails at this point, to discourage people from thinking it's a worthwhile communication medium.
Well, for one thing, for those of us who do the bulk of our banking and shopping online (a great timesaver for which I am truly grateful) most receipts, invoices, alerts, etc come via email. I sure as hell wouldn't want them coming IM.
While I see IM can be be occasionally convenient, mostly it reminds me of giggling kids passing notes in class. Just not very grown-up or professional. I certainly wouldn't contact an important client using the gibberish I see people doing in IM. In the last 30 days I have received 4 IMs and for just one I responded via phone, the rest I ignored. Two of those people lost out on some work they could've got had they troubled to use email or the phone and complete sentences. I can't tell from an IM if I'm even talking to someone literate. That ought to be more than enough reason right there.:)
In any given day I probably touch about 5-10 different PCs that I end up checking my email at (and multiple email addresses at that). I suspect that my scenario is very common among slashdotters.
Right, so add multiple servers and it's just like me. Multiple boxen, multiple accounts, multiple IMAPs.
And don't bring up the "app on a thumb drive" because that's a whole other layer of maintenance and complexity that I don't have time for.
I already did bring that up. I guess maybe we have different thresholds of "complexity" then? From where I sit, having an account compromised because I was lazy would make things very complex indeed...
Am I the only one surprised at how many/.ers are using the web interface for email? After all, that's what MUAs and IMAP are for! I wouldn't dream of using my browser for that beyond the initial setup. I've put a lot of people on Gmail IMAP with mutt, TBird, Evolution, and Kmail. Aside from the winCE victims, why wouldn't everyone do it like this? Thumb drives are cheaper than ever, why risk your email account like that? Laziness?
If you want a company to do things that run counter to the satisfaction of their shareholders, what exactly is your proposition?
If you want to use rhetoric rather than reason, how would you suggest we communicate? Because I certainly didn't say anything remotely like "I want companies to do things that run counter to the satisfaction of their shareholders". *sigh* Well, perhaps you are one of those extremist capitalist types who believes we should unbalance our economy by removing all economic controls and allow only the richest to profit in business, in which case I would like to point out that moderation in all things is as necessary for economic health as it is for physical health.
Think about it. Unless of course you'd rather not. Think, that is.
But consider this: unless you're one of the world's richest people, this modern and terribly incorrect idea that a free market is a market with no controls will not benefit you a bit should it be implemented. Don't be brainwashed.
Now why didn't I think of that? WiMax broadband would probably sell well around here. I can't imagine I'd be the only one unhappy with comcast here in the Lithia Springs - Douglasville area... Thanks!
Well I guess I deserve that response for feeding a troll, but when you grow up maybe you'll see the real problem here : that the big telecoms are holding back our nation's technological progress just to satisfy the greed of thier shareholders.
I'm sorry, but that's just idiotic. I am stuck paying for both comcast internet and verizon wireless internet because neither is sufficient by itself. In fact both together are still pretty inadequate, considering this is 2008. Comcast is the only company offering wired broadband in my area, Verizon FIOS or ATT broadband do not even exist here -- and I'm a mere 12 miles from downtown Atlanta, not exactly the middle of nowhere. If I pay for a T1, it will not help me on the road and my costs skyrocket beyond reason. If I use satellite or dial-up (or try to use Verizon wireless for everything), it's "bye bye streaming content" and "hello, 1997 internet speeds". Dial up and satellite are not actually competition for cable/DSL, not at all.
Why is kdawson still around? Every article they post has something wrong with it or has some stupid editorial attached. I generally only look to see who posted an article when I get annoyed by the summary and 90% of those times it's kdawson.
The kdawson we are stuck using now is the 4.0 version, which is still quite buggy. But I hear that kdawson 4.1 is testing well and will be out any day now. The good people at TrollTech have been working on it night and day. At home, I prefer the gdawson myself...
While I'm not a bit fond of MS or most of their products, even I can see that this Surface thingie could well be the beginning of something huge, at least among gamers and maybe for multimedia use as well. And high cost is pretty normal for the first iteration of any really new tech.
What sane OS vendor would lock out 90% of its potential customers by not running their primary application ?
Sane? If the decision makers at MS were sane, chairs wouldn't get thrown, the ISO would not have tampered with, and there wouldn't be millions (or is it billions now?) of dollars worth of fines on them.
Slashdot Mirror
You steenkeeng Eengleesh bed wettair!
Do the right drugs, the ones that help you fit in with corporate culture and make $$$?
Have you noticed how freaking huge Hillary's face has become recently? Symptom of anti-depressant abuse.
Yep. Looks like the real headline for this summary should be something like, "Paranoid, Over-Caffeinated Gamers Fear Christian Wrath". Jeesh!
Heh, I wish. But now you're talking about privacy, which is a bit different from security. I don't really believe that we have privacy here in the states -- maybe with PGP, but good luck getting most of your clients to use it.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I do use Gmail. Reliability is Gmail's strong suit, IMO. It would cost me quite a bit to run my own IMAP servers as well as Gmail runs theirs. In fact, in over two years I think once I couldn't get my mail -- for about 15 minutes! That's just killer uptime, and I love them for that. But I access it via IMAP with TBird on my Mac, mutt on my Linux boxen, and Versamail with my Treo. When I need to use an untrusted host (which I do almost daily) I use a thumb drive preloaded with Puppy Linux, using mutt for the MUA. At home I back up all my mail on my Mac using Thunderbird. It's super easy. I spend nearly no time at all to maintain this system and not even a hiccup in two years' time. I highly recommend it. Of course, there is no perfect security. But if my accounts get compromised at least I'll know it wasn't because I was careless.
I didn't say IMAP was risk-free, but it doesn't get half the focus browsers do from the script kiddies and crackers. Nearly three years ago I did have 2 webmail accounts compromised -- and I had an excellent password, it wasn't stored in the browser, and I certainly never tolerated anyone looking over my shoulder (and if you somehow did, good luck -- it's nothing for me to memorize a 30 character password:). But it's never happened using IMAP, not once. Of course, I don't go to Starbuck's to check my email either. At present I consider the riskiest element of my set-up to be my Palm using Versamail on VZW's network. Used to absolutely give me the willies to use that, but now I've had plenty of experience doing it with no problems so far.
I don't think so. But then the way I work requires me to have reliable accounts that don't get pwned. It's a simple matter of consistency == trust. I guess not everyone feels that way. But I'll bet you will, when the day comes that you're negotiating something important and you get locked out of your own account. Also, when you answer valid security concerns with "so what?", it certainly triggers a red flag for me. I sure wouldn't want that dismissive an attitude toward security on my team. Of course you're correct that there are always risks, but does that mean it's okay to live on Cap'n Crunch and pudding pops because "everyone gets sick anyway"?
Passwords stored in the browser do not require an attacker to break SSL, and SSL can certainly be broken, especially if you're on wifi.
Nope, not this time.
Well, as I have actually seen my gmail accounts' web interface maybe twice each in the two years I've used them (just to administer settings), I'm not certain about exactly what you mean. All MUAs with which I am familiar will let you oragnize emails very easily in at least two ways (labels and folders), and they all thread by subject easily enough as well. Email search is present and works perfectly in TBird and Evolution, and I think Kmail too, IIRC. Is there something extra I've missed?
It is trivial for a third party to see your password when you login from your browser, more so if you're a dunce who stores them in the browser.
Please turn in your geek card on your way out.
Well, for one thing, for those of us who do the bulk of our banking and shopping online (a great timesaver for which I am truly grateful) most receipts, invoices, alerts, etc come via email. I sure as hell wouldn't want them coming IM.
While I see IM can be be occasionally convenient, mostly it reminds me of giggling kids passing notes in class. Just not very grown-up or professional. I certainly wouldn't contact an important client using the gibberish I see people doing in IM. In the last 30 days I have received 4 IMs and for just one I responded via phone, the rest I ignored. Two of those people lost out on some work they could've got had they troubled to use email or the phone and complete sentences. I can't tell from an IM if I'm even talking to someone literate. That ought to be more than enough reason right there.
Right, so add multiple servers and it's just like me. Multiple boxen, multiple accounts, multiple IMAPs.
I already did bring that up. I guess maybe we have different thresholds of "complexity" then? From where I sit, having an account compromised because I was lazy would make things very complex indeed...
Am I the only one surprised at how many /.ers are using the web interface for email? After all, that's what MUAs and IMAP are for! I wouldn't dream of using my browser for that beyond the initial setup. I've put a lot of people on Gmail IMAP with mutt, TBird, Evolution, and Kmail. Aside from the winCE victims, why wouldn't everyone do it like this? Thumb drives are cheaper than ever, why risk your email account like that? Laziness?
Dagnabbit, I can't find the conversion chart for that one anywhere, and I really want to know what I weigh in minutes.
Well, I've been wrong before but that strikes me as a rather extravagant claim -- citation please?
If you want to use rhetoric rather than reason, how would you suggest we communicate? Because I certainly didn't say anything remotely like "I want companies to do things that run counter to the satisfaction of their shareholders".
*sigh*
Well, perhaps you are one of those extremist capitalist types who believes we should unbalance our economy by removing all economic controls and allow only the richest to profit in business, in which case I would like to point out that moderation in all things is as necessary for economic health as it is for physical health. Think about it. Unless of course you'd rather not. Think, that is.
But consider this: unless you're one of the world's richest people, this modern and terribly incorrect idea that a free market is a market with no controls will not benefit you a bit should it be implemented. Don't be brainwashed.
Now why didn't I think of that? WiMax broadband would probably sell well around here. I can't imagine I'd be the only one unhappy with comcast here in the Lithia Springs - Douglasville area... Thanks!
No-one said anything about "doing away with the profit motive", that's just your sad, sad way of attempting to save face. You lose -- buh-bye!
P.S. You may have the last word now, obviously that is what matters to you.
Well I guess I deserve that response for feeding a troll, but when you grow up maybe you'll see the real problem here : that the big telecoms are holding back our nation's technological progress just to satisfy the greed of thier shareholders.
Whatever happened to "build a better mousetrap"? It's thinking like yours that has ruined American business.
I'm sorry, but that's just idiotic. I am stuck paying for both comcast internet and verizon wireless internet because neither is sufficient by itself. In fact both together are still pretty inadequate, considering this is 2008. Comcast is the only company offering wired broadband in my area, Verizon FIOS or ATT broadband do not even exist here -- and I'm a mere 12 miles from downtown Atlanta, not exactly the middle of nowhere. If I pay for a T1, it will not help me on the road and my costs skyrocket beyond reason. If I use satellite or dial-up (or try to use Verizon wireless for everything), it's "bye bye streaming content" and "hello, 1997 internet speeds".
Dial up and satellite are not actually competition for cable/DSL, not at all.
The kdawson we are stuck using now is the 4.0 version, which is still quite buggy. But I hear that kdawson 4.1 is testing well and will be out any day now. The good people at TrollTech have been working on it night and day. At home, I prefer the gdawson myself...
Good job!
While I'm not a bit fond of MS or most of their products, even I can see that this Surface thingie could well be the beginning of something huge, at least among gamers and maybe for multimedia use as well. And high cost is pretty normal for the first iteration of any really new tech.
Sane? If the decision makers at MS were sane, chairs wouldn't get thrown, the ISO would not have tampered with, and there wouldn't be millions (or is it billions now?) of dollars worth of fines on them.
Indeed, IIRC they even had an internal slogan -- "it's not done til Lotus won't run", or something like that.