I've played (and quit) many MMOGs, and this is the first one that has held my attention for more than a month (since I quit AC, at least).
The game concepts are unique, the problems and Tests are challenging but not impossible, and almost everyone I've met through the game is a good, friendly, kind, intelligent, helpful person.
I'd go so far as to say that ATITD is the best MMOG I've played, and it has the added benefit of having an extremely high-quality player base. It can be frustrating at times, but only because the puzzles are actually -hard-. I've devoted a lot of time to deciphering one particular aspect of the game (winemaking) and it still largely baffles me. Where most games err on the side of being too easy, this one definitely isn't "dumbed down" for the masses.
Client is a free download (both windows and linux -- and you never pay for it, unlike those sneaky AO people), and there's a 1-month-or-24-hrs-game-time free trial period.
It's really quite fun, and if you're interested in MMOGs at all, you really should take a look.
At the bottom of each index entry users are encouraged to rate and provide feedback/reviews about the document being indexed.
I hope some folks will go check the OSDI out and let me know what they think. Currently all of the OSWG and most of the LDP documents are in the index, and more are being added daily.
You could volunteer with the Open Source Writers Group (http://www.thepuffingroup.com/oswg/). The OSWG is an project that works to match volunteer writers and editors with open-source projects that need help with their documentation.
I would like to encourage you to join the OSWG. What you can do is volunteer to help out with the docs on a project, and when you've done up a draft, offer it to the other (possibly more experienced) members of the group for critique and commentary. This way you can not only help with the Open Source movement, you will also learn a whole lot about tech writing, and in the end you'll end up with valuable writing experience and a polished writing sample. Experience & writing samples will get you a job if you stick with it.
None of the tech writers I personally know actually have technical degrees. I have a degree in Sociology, and I'm a tech writer. I've only got 2 years tech writing experience, yet here I am heading up a project which should probably be run by someone with 10x my experience.
That's the beauty of the Open Source movement. If you want to contribute, you can. Everyone has valuable skills & time.
Please, join the OSWG mailing list. Take a look at some of the projects. Try writing or rewriting a HOWTO or something small to start.
Browsing through the list of writers who have applied for the job, it doesn't seem like this project is making any attempt to fix this problem. For their biographies, they note things like degrees, almost any technical experience, and listings of programs they're familiar with. Unfortunately, none of them speak of their ability to communicate simply and easily with the computer illiterate.
One of the main skills most technical writers must first develop is the ability to write clear, concise, user-oriented documentation (in the software industry, at least). I think perhaps none of us have put this in our mini-bios on the OSWG site because for us (experienced tech writers) this sort of thing almost "goes without saying". It is a valid point, of course, and I'll bring it up on the list to see if any of the writers/editors wants to add this sort of information to their bio.
I'd just like to point out that not all coders are true geeks, and not all geeks are coders. I'm a techwriter and this article applies as much to me as to any geek out there. Give me a project that I find interesting, and I'll put in 80 hour weeks working on it...not just on the docs, but on learning the technology, coming up with new approaches and ideas and possible refinements. I'll voluntarily do QA testing, alpha/beta testing, and I'll learn the tech well enough that I can be very effective at both of these. In the end, you get more work out of me, a better product, better docs, and a very happy techwriter.
I'm also a total sucker for positive feedback -- you tell me I'm doing a good job & make me feel appreciated, I'll reward you by working even harder.
On the other hand, if you make me feel under- or un-appreciated, and/or make me work on boring stuff all the time (everyone has to do boring stuff part of the time), and if I end up doing work that doesn't teach me new stuff, etc...I'll be looking for a new job.
Just don't forget that you have non-coder geeks as well, and they are also important to your projects and company.
I get up every morning to go to my over-paying job GLAD that I made it through without killing myself. Eveyone I know who is happy as an adult HATED high school.
Absolutely. I despised highschool. Every goddamned second of it. I did the "goth" thing. I did the "geek" thing. I did the "gamer" thing. I wore a black trenchcoat.
I cannot and will not condone the actions of the TCM. I do not sympathize with them, nor can I even begin to comprehend them. What they did was Absolutely WRONG and sick and twisted and just...incomprehensible.
I would, however, like to add my voice to the chorus of high-school-survivors in cheering on those of you who are still stuck in those unrelenting hellholes. Don't give up. Don't give in. Don't let them break you. The second you finish with highschool, life starts to get a lot better.
I survived highschool, and going back through my journals (I've been keeping a daily journal since I was 15) I realize what a miracle it is that I managed to survive. It was awful. My god. I was so full of hate and rage and self-loathing that I can barely recognize the person I was. It's actually frightening to go back and read the words I wrote in those days. The rage was overwhelming.
Now, however, I am a happy, healthy, well-paid geek who still does a lot of gaming and is generally enjoying life a lot. I know how hard it is to believe, but things do get better. Life does get better. I never believed it would, but I refused to let them break me, and in surviving I have discovered that highschool is not real life.
How can extensive documentation not do anything for users? This article is clueless on so many points, and it seems to contradict itself on almost all of them.
Quality, not quantity, is key. It isn't easy to write good technical documentation. The Linux Howtos are written with the assumption that the readers already know quite a bit about Linux. The vast majority of Linux docs are written with the assumption that the readers already know quite a bit about Linux/Unix.
Blathering on and on and on and on for pages and chapters isn't doing anyone any good if the docs suck, or if the docs make assumptions about the readers that aren't true. Quality, not quantity. For example, even if there were 40,000 pages of docs available that covered every minor detail about running Linux, it wouldn't do an English-speaking person much good if they were written in Swahili. Linux docs suffer from a general lack of user-analysis and profiling.
Gah...don't even get me started about man pages. Jesus those things suck.
I can go on, but I think I made my point. Bah.
Being elitist isn't going to help the situation. Just because someone doesn't have any Linux/Unix experience doesn't mean they're idiots. Making the leap from the Windows world to the Linux/Unix world is not an easy thing to do. It's a whole different mind set, using different models and different approaches. There is little (if any) documentation written to aid people in making that transition.
Someone should write a "Windows-users' Guide to Linux". There should be an ongoing documentation effort that produces docs to help people make that leap. There are people out there who have never seen a CLI. Through no fault of their own, I'll add. Just because they haven't ever used a CLI doesn't mean they're stupid, it just means that they have a bit more of a leap to make between worlds.
As much as the hackers don't want to admit it, documentation is a very important part of any software product. And documentation is part of the product...it's not something you sort of tack on to the end when you happen to think about it.
I am a technical writer. I work documenting products with GUIs and also CLI products. Here's some stuff I've learned in my two years (yeah, I'm a newbie still) of tech-writer experience:
a) Tech writers do actually have to be technically competent. Those who are technically incompetent might be able to write, but they can't write good docs.
b) Technical documentation cannot be treated as an afterthought. The documentation team should be incorporated into the development process as early as possible...ideally, as soon as the project team is put together. OSS projects can't really do this, of course, because there is no formal process in place...there is no real "team" that is put together for a project...projects just sort of grow and morph and change and develop as time goes on. Or at least that's the impression I get...if I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm sure there are some examples of OSS projects that do have a more formal development process.
c) Technical documentation is a cooperative effort that involves writers, developers, and users. The developers have to provide the basic information and they have to review the documentation for technical accuracy. Writers have to work with the developers on this, as well as diving in and learning everything they possibly can about the product. Users have to provide feedback not just about the product itself, but about the documentation as well. Writers have to use this feedback to improve the documentation and to make suggestions to developers about how usability of a product can be improved. It's all one big symbiotic process that helps create really good and usable products through an evolutionary development process. It takes time and it takes a lot of work and coordination.
d) Technical documentation has to be written for a specific user audience. You can't write good documentation if you don't know who you're writing it for. This means that writers have to develop user profiles, and then write for people who fit these profiles. If you just start writing, you're going to end up with documentation which is way too technical in some areas (you write for experts), way too newbie in other areas (you write for new users), and a mishmash of in-between stuff. This makes for documentation that doesn't suit anyone's needs. This also means that you might have to write more than one set of docs for a particular product: one set for experts, one set for rank newbies, one set for people who are interested in working on development, etc. Defining your users and creating profiles of these users is a key aspect of writing docs (and in developing apps).
er...
Etcetera. I could go on for days about this stuff. My point is this: the OSS movement is sorely lacking in the documentation department. The vast majority of docs that exist are written by the people who developed the applications, which means that most of it is far too technical for the average user. Most of the docs are also written about the particular product rather than about how to use the product. It's extremely important that documentation is task-based and user-based rather than technology based. Writing docs like that isn't nearly as easy as some might think, because as soon as you know how to use a product, you tend to start skipping the details when you write it up.
Oop...I got rambling again. Sorry.
We need docs. We need good docs written by people who know how to write docs. I volunteered to help the documentation effort for one product but I never got any feedback from the coordinator. I'd like to help. I am not a coder, but I do have skills which I think would be useful in context of the larger OSS movement. The problems are: writing doesn't have the same prestige value as hacking code; writing tech docs is not an activity that can be done in communicative isolation (which means we can't just sit in our basements crankin' this stuff out like code hackers do); developers (in general) don't want to be bothered with docs or with helping writers with docs...etc.
Ach. I could go on and on. And on:)
We need good docs. If there are any other tech writers out there who are interested in chatting about this stuff, email me. I could start a linux-writers listserv and we could start hashing out some ideas.
You realize that it doesn't matter what Gates says, right? I mean, the man was on a roll for a long time, but he and his company are losing credibility these days. No...let me rephrase that...they're hemmoraging credibility. The main stream press reports what He says, and the main stream press also reports what He does. They also report all the DOJ shenanigans, etc etc etc.
What Gates does or does not say will have Zero impact on this movement. Nothing Gates can say will impact the quality of Open Source code. Nothing Gates can say will stop people who know what they're doing from turning to Linux and Apache for their file server and web server solutions. Nothing Gates can say will stop the growing throng of people who are turning to Linux and Open Source Software.
People who know computers know that Microsoft stuff sucks. Nothing Gates can say can stop that. There are more computers out there than ever before, and the number is growing. There are more people out there using computers. There are increasing numbers of people who understand computers and are experienced with them.
Gates/Microsoft continues to try to keep users from becoming skilled computer users by hiding all the "hard stuff" from them. This is in their best interest, of course, because people who know computers know that Microsoft sucks.
Nothing Gates can say or do can stop this. His company's success in making the computer more prolific is dooming him where it should have created a Microsoft world. You know what their failures are:
1) They make crappy software. 2) They market to the lowest common denominator.
The second anyone tries to do anything with their computer that is outside of M$'s narrow little definition of the "average user" they realize just how horrible and limiting and frustrating MS products can be.
Anyhow...I'll wrap up by repeating myself: it doesn't matter what Gates says. He cannot stop us, so ignore him. Not even the main stream press really takes him seriously anymore...not with everyone in the world launching a lawsuit against 'em.
When I was a kid, parents used to blame role-playing games (AD&D primarily) for stuff like this. It's simply that parents don't want to take responsibility for the fact that their children are twisted little socially-maladjusted freaks, so they hold up the first scapegoat they can lay hands on. These days it's violent movies and video games. It used to be role playing games. Before that it was rock & roll.
None of these things are banned yet, tho', so I wouldn't worry about it too much. The courts (of most countries) have plenty of precendent on record that will avoid really stupid things from happening.
In the long run, the OSS movement isn't about leaders or corporate acceptance or the public perception of this community. This movement is about software, dammit, nothing else. Sure, Linux and OSS are currently in the spotlight, but that's a new situation the community is being forced to deal with. Soon enough the spotlight will swing and focus elsewhere and Linux/OSS will continue to trundle along in relative obscurity again.
This community doesn't have "leaders"...this community has "significant contributors". No one voted ESR or Perens or Raymond in as spokespersons, they just ended up there because of what they contributed (and continue to contribute) to this movement and to this community. Eventually other people will become the spokespeople for this movement...again, not because they're elected in any fashion, but because of what they do...because of what they contribute.
I'll now hoist up our very own Commanding Taco as prime example. He's a guy with a website fer gawd's sake. No one voted him in as maintainer of this website, he just built the damned thing. And what happened? Boom. The website got popular. Linux/OSS ended up in the spotlight. Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda ends up with a full page spread in Wired, ends up on the Advisory Board for linux.com, ends up being interviewed by the media...blah blah blah. No one voted for this guy for anything. Rob just actively contributed to the movement, and in contributing has ended up as a highly visible potential-spokesperson.
My point? Who the hell cares if Bruce and Eric fight like dogs?Who cares if they hate one another's guts and like airing their dirty laundry in public? I don't care. This doesn't change the amount of respect I have for them, because my respect is earned by their real-life contributions.
Personally I don't give two hoots if there is a wide-spread corporate acceptance and adoption of Linux/OSS. I don't. Even if the current surge in popularity continues unabated, it's going to be *years* before I am able to use Linux full-time in the workplace. Corporate adoption isn't just about getting word out about the quality of the software. There's a whole lot of other issues that have to be overcome: changing platforms is high-risk; retraining staff who have been trained on Windows for years is an expensive proposition; hiring staff to create and maintain the networks is also expensive; there are huge gargantuan piles of data lying around in proprietary format; there are tons of widely used proprietary applications which do not have Open Source equivalents yet.
Etc. As long as there are people who are willing to continue developing OS software, it doesn't matter at all if the corporate world adopts OSS. Not yet...not for years yet. This isn't going to be a Sudden Sweeping Change that zooms around the world leaving millions of smiling happy OSS users around the world. Right now the spotlight is on this community. The spotlight will move on long before Total Global Domination is a reality.
So...who cares if these guys fight? Let 'em have at it. It's entertaining the hell out of the press, and it's not like none of us have seen a flamewar before.
In the long run this movement will be a success not because of our spokespeople, but because of the quality of the code, documentation, and technical support. Not to mention the full-on support of open standards and a foundational philosophy that is non-exclusionary and puts powerful computing tools into the hands of the common people. Viva la revolucion, and all that.
Perl programs strongly resemble line noise. You have to be either a masochist or brutally obsessive-compulsive to actually take the time to decipher the majority of programs written by someone else (and sometimes yourself). Perl is pretty in the same way that a mutant-child is pretty to its mother. "A face that only a mother could love" and all that.
If the guys want to watch geek girls, maybe they can convince RedHat to give the girls who enter a bit of an edge on winning.
I'm a geekchick who uses RedHat and could use a couple of days holiday. I'd put up with being leered at by a webs-worth of geekboyz for a couple of days if it meant a free vacation.;>
Oh don't be such an ol' stick in the mud. I got duped as well (until all three sites went down at once, on this of all days). Still...it was funny. It's good for slashdot to have a sense of humour...it'd be horrible if Rob & Co started taking all of this too seriously.
:)
Two thumbs up to everyone involved with the joke. It was brilliant:)
This community is not a democracy. The OSS movement is more like the Klingon High Council: if you do something, you get to decide how it gets done. The more you contribute, the more decision-making power you have.
You disagree with how someone has done something? Don't complain about it...do something about it.
Blowing our chances of what? Of maybe creating a healthy and supportive community that will carry this movement beyond the current hype and actually continue the work that is being done until finally, Finally, we can (as ESR puts it) live in a world without crappy software.
A revolution doesn't last if all the revolutionaries get tired of fighting and go home. If you give people a reason to take up arms alongside, they will. Equally, however, if you give people a reason to remain neutral or to ally with the enemy, they will. A revolution is not built on good ideas alone. A revolution is the product of people working and fighting together towards a common goal, often reconciling their own differences for the good of the movement as a whole.
That possibility...the possibility of actually creating a movement of solid and lasting potential...that's what we might be destroying.
The phrase "our terms" refers to a plurality. "Our terms" are defined by the community as a whole. You're not talking about "our terms" here...we have never defined "our terms". You're talking about your interpretation of the "terms" which just might not be correct.
Why did you post this? Do you think that ESR really doesn't understand what's going on? Do you think that his obvious generalization of slashdot readers as "kiddies" actually applied to everyone?
Perhaps you should have taken the time to read the whole article...take the small biting criticism for a moment, but then read on. Perhaps you would have seen the part about being civil to one another, and about not burning out our advocates.
Your flaming is not only unnecessary and uninteresting, it's also foolish in the face of the article to which you are reacting, *particularly* because you didn't read the whole thing.
Civilized discussion and the open exchange of ideas is a good and proper thing, and it's one of the things that makes this community what it is. Unbridled flamage is just a waste of everyone's time.
To mangle a Confucian saying:
"If words are not better than silence, keep silent."
Or, to mangle a cliche:
"If you don't have something constructive to say, don't say anything at all."
I think that's maybe the crux of ESRs article...the foundation of what he's trying to say. You should read it.
I, for one, know that he wasn't referring to me when he called slashdot people "script kiddies". Truth always hurts more than lies.
Okay...everything negative that can be said about this article and about Rob's editorial policy has already been said.
I would like to point out that:
a) nobody's perfect, not even El Taco himself b) everyone has a bad day c) everyone makes the occassional blunder
Now, that said, I think that we can all agree that the general quality of slashdot is pretty damned high, and getting higher all the time (thanks be to the gods for comment moderation...*hallelujah!*).
Just 'cuz CT fumbled the ball this once doesn't mean that the overall quality of slashdot is suddenly dropping. Just 'cuz ol'TacoHead had a bad day doesn't mean that he's suddenly turned into a bumbling moron.
Rob has done a *phenomenal* job with this site and everything related to it. My god people, have some respect.
Now, since everything negative has already been said, let's give it a rest and move on, okay?
A lot of the frustrated and "not worth bothering" users that used to like reading comments until they have gotten this huge may possibly come back.
It's true. Not only do I now read the comments again, I actually feel like it's worthwhile contributing to the comments because people might actually see them. Before the moderation/scoring system you always had to wade through all the random crap ("first posts", flames, stupid oneliner "me too"s, etc) in order to find the posts that are actually worth reading.
Now that the moderation system is in place, tada, just pick a threshhold level, and you're set.
It's genius. Really. I've never seen a system like this before, and it really works. Not only do users get a lot more control over what they see, Rob & Co get to dodge the "censorship" bullet. A fine bit o' innovation, and definitely one of the most important improvements to slashdot yet.
Thanks for the response Bruce. It's reassuring to know that Apple is still working on this whole thing...it would have been easy enough for them to grab the "open source" label, slap it on their license, then just ignore the ensuing chaos (well...at least until someone legally contested their use of the trademark, if that ever happened).
I think that Apple is sincere about all of this. I don't think that it's just a matter of them trying to take advantage of the growing Open Source hype to further their own ends. Sure, that's part of it, but it can't be the whole story.
It's exciting to see the community rise up and do such a rigorous 'peer review' of the APSL...it is, after all, what has made the Open Source thing so great. It's also exciting to see such a major player as Apple revise their thinking like this and actually have the guts to actually give this a try. Sure, they have some corporate interests that must be served...they are accountable to their shareholders after all...and it shouldn't surprise us if they try to leave themselves a backdoor escape route in case this experiment comes crashing down around their ears. It would be massively irresponisble of them to do otherwise, really.
It's up to us ("us" being a pretty loose and all encompassing term referring to the OSS movement as a whole) to help make sure that the Apple Open Source Experiment (AOSE:) is a success. No, this doesn't mean just kowtowing to the wishes and commands of a host of corporate drones (ew...that's quite a visual). It would be irresposible of us to do so, even if we were able.
What we can do to ensure that the AOSE is successful is to voice our concerns in a calm and rational and yet persistent manner. No one wants to come play in the sandbox if they end up getting kicked and bloodied every time they show up. But if we calmly and rationally work with them until they understand the rules we play by, and if they're willing to change how they work so their goals are not incompatible with our own, then we could very well end up with a major ally in this ongoing drive towards a world of free and open software.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: in a just society, people are innocent until proven guilty. Apple, however, is in many ways being treated like a criminal in spite of the fact that their "guilt" has yet to be determined. That's not doing anyone any good.
Oh, and thanks for clearing up the SPI/Raymond trademark control thing. That really had my brain in a knot for a while.
Slashdot Mirror
Mozilla Developer Center: Extensions.
I've played (and quit) many MMOGs, and this is the first one that has held my attention for more than a month (since I quit AC, at least).
The game concepts are unique, the problems and Tests are challenging but not impossible, and almost everyone I've met through the game is a good, friendly, kind, intelligent, helpful person.
I'd go so far as to say that ATITD is the best MMOG I've played, and it has the added benefit of having an extremely high-quality player base. It can be frustrating at times, but only because the puzzles are actually -hard-. I've devoted a lot of time to deciphering one particular aspect of the game (winemaking) and it still largely baffles me. Where most games err on the side of being too easy, this one definitely isn't "dumbed down" for the masses.
Client is a free download (both windows and linux -- and you never pay for it, unlike those sneaky AO people), and there's a 1-month-or-24-hrs-game-time free trial period.
It's really quite fun, and if you're interested in MMOGs at all, you really should take a look.
Sweet, geeky, romantic...whatever. This whole thing has made me smile. I wish the two of you the best of everything for the future.
Yep.
Open Source Writers Group
At the bottom of each index entry users are encouraged to rate and provide feedback/reviews about the document being indexed.
I hope some folks will go check the OSDI out and let me know what they think. Currently all of the OSWG and most of the LDP documents are in the index, and more are being added daily.
Open Source Writers Group
You could volunteer with the Open Source Writers Group (http://www.thepuffingroup.com/oswg/). The OSWG is an project that works to match volunteer writers and editors with open-source projects that need help with their documentation.
Open Source Writers Group
I would like to encourage you to join the OSWG. What you can do is volunteer to help out with the docs on a project, and when you've done up a draft, offer it to the other (possibly more experienced) members of the group for critique and commentary. This way you can not only help with the Open Source movement, you will also learn a whole lot about tech writing, and in the end you'll end up with valuable writing experience and a polished writing sample. Experience & writing samples will get you a job if you stick with it.
None of the tech writers I personally know actually have technical degrees. I have a degree in Sociology, and I'm a tech writer. I've only got 2 years tech writing experience, yet here I am heading up a project which should probably be run by someone with 10x my experience.
That's the beauty of the Open Source movement. If you want to contribute, you can. Everyone has valuable skills & time.
Please, join the OSWG mailing list. Take a look at some of the projects. Try writing or rewriting a HOWTO or something small to start.
It's really a lot of fun.
- deb (founder of the OSWG)
Browsing through the list of writers who have applied for the job, it doesn't seem like this project is making any attempt to fix this problem. For their biographies, they note things like degrees, almost any technical experience, and listings of programs they're familiar with. Unfortunately, none of them speak of their ability to communicate simply and easily with the computer illiterate.
One of the main skills most technical writers must first develop is the ability to write clear, concise, user-oriented documentation (in the software industry, at least). I think perhaps none of us have put this in our mini-bios on the OSWG site because for us (experienced tech writers) this sort of thing almost "goes without saying". It is a valid point, of course, and I'll bring it up on the list to see if any of the writers/editors wants to add this sort of information to their bio.
- deb
I'd just like to point out that not all coders are true geeks, and not all geeks are coders. I'm a techwriter and this article applies as much to me as to any geek out there. Give me a project that I find interesting, and I'll put in 80 hour weeks working on it...not just on the docs, but on learning the technology, coming up with new approaches and ideas and possible refinements. I'll voluntarily do QA testing, alpha/beta testing, and I'll learn the tech well enough that I can be very effective at both of these. In the end, you get more work out of me, a better product, better docs, and a very happy techwriter.
I'm also a total sucker for positive feedback -- you tell me I'm doing a good job & make me feel appreciated, I'll reward you by working even harder.
On the other hand, if you make me feel under- or un-appreciated, and/or make me work on boring stuff all the time (everyone has to do boring stuff part of the time), and if I end up doing work that doesn't teach me new stuff, etc...I'll be looking for a new job.
Just don't forget that you have non-coder geeks as well, and they are also important to your projects and company.
- d
I get up every morning to go to my over-paying job GLAD that I made it through without killing myself. Eveyone I know who is happy as an adult HATED high school.
Absolutely. I despised highschool. Every goddamned second of it. I did the "goth" thing. I did the "geek" thing. I did the "gamer" thing. I wore a black trenchcoat.
I cannot and will not condone the actions of the TCM. I do not sympathize with them, nor can I even begin to comprehend them. What they did was Absolutely WRONG and sick and twisted and just...incomprehensible.
I would, however, like to add my voice to the chorus of high-school-survivors in cheering on those of you who are still stuck in those unrelenting hellholes. Don't give up. Don't give in. Don't let them break you. The second you finish with highschool, life starts to get a lot better.
I survived highschool, and going back through my journals (I've been keeping a daily journal since I was 15) I realize what a miracle it is that I managed to survive. It was awful. My god. I was so full of hate and rage and self-loathing that I can barely recognize the person I was. It's actually frightening to go back and read the words I wrote in those days. The rage was overwhelming.
Now, however, I am a happy, healthy, well-paid geek who still does a lot of gaming and is generally enjoying life a lot. I know how hard it is to believe, but things do get better. Life does get better. I never believed it would, but I refused to let them break me, and in surviving I have discovered that highschool is not real life.
Not even close.
Don't let them break you. Things will get better.
Honest.
- dria
I mis-stated myself, apparently. My "elitism" comment was in response to people calling other people "idiots" and "cluebies".
And no, quantity != quality. I know this probably counts for nothing, but I'm a tech writer, and it just doesn't work that way.
- deb
How can extensive documentation not do anything for users? This article is clueless on so many points, and it seems to contradict itself on almost all of them.
Quality, not quantity, is key. It isn't easy to write good technical documentation. The Linux Howtos are written with the assumption that the readers already know quite a bit about Linux. The vast majority of Linux docs are written with the assumption that the readers already know quite a bit about Linux/Unix.
Blathering on and on and on and on for pages and chapters isn't doing anyone any good if the docs suck, or if the docs make assumptions about the readers that aren't true. Quality, not quantity. For example, even if there were 40,000 pages of docs available that covered every minor detail about running Linux, it wouldn't do an English-speaking person much good if they were written in Swahili. Linux docs suffer from a general lack of user-analysis and profiling.
Gah...don't even get me started about man pages. Jesus those things suck.
I can go on, but I think I made my point. Bah.
Being elitist isn't going to help the situation. Just because someone doesn't have any Linux/Unix experience doesn't mean they're idiots. Making the leap from the Windows world to the Linux/Unix world is not an easy thing to do. It's a whole different mind set, using different models and different approaches. There is little (if any) documentation written to aid people in making that transition.
Someone should write a "Windows-users' Guide to Linux". There should be an ongoing documentation effort that produces docs to help people make that leap. There are people out there who have never seen a CLI. Through no fault of their own, I'll add. Just because they haven't ever used a CLI doesn't mean they're stupid, it just means that they have a bit more of a leap to make between worlds.
The first step is to stop being so elitist.
- dria
As much as the hackers don't want to admit it, documentation is a very important part of any software product. And documentation is part of the product...it's not something you sort of tack on to the end when you happen to think about it.
:)
I am a technical writer. I work documenting products with GUIs and also CLI products. Here's some stuff I've learned in my two years (yeah, I'm a newbie still) of tech-writer experience:
a) Tech writers do actually have to be technically competent. Those who are technically incompetent might be able to write, but they can't write good docs.
b) Technical documentation cannot be treated as an afterthought. The documentation team should be incorporated into the development process as early as possible...ideally, as soon as the project team is put together. OSS projects can't really do this, of course, because there is no formal process in place...there is no real "team" that is put together for a project...projects just sort of grow and morph and change and develop as time goes on. Or at least that's the impression I get...if I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm sure there are some examples of OSS projects that do have a more formal development process.
c) Technical documentation is a cooperative effort that involves writers, developers, and users. The developers have to provide the basic information and they have to review the documentation for technical accuracy. Writers have to work with the developers on this, as well as diving in and learning everything they possibly can about the product. Users have to provide feedback not just about the product itself, but about the documentation as well. Writers have to use this feedback to improve the documentation and to make suggestions to developers about how usability of a product can be improved. It's all one big symbiotic process that helps create really good and usable products through an evolutionary development process. It takes time and it takes a lot of work and coordination.
d) Technical documentation has to be written for a specific user audience. You can't write good documentation if you don't know who you're writing it for. This means that writers have to develop user profiles, and then write for people who fit these profiles. If you just start writing, you're going to end up with documentation which is way too technical in some areas (you write for experts), way too newbie in other areas (you write for new users), and a mishmash of in-between stuff. This makes for documentation that doesn't suit anyone's needs. This also means that you might have to write more than one set of docs for a particular product: one set for experts, one set for rank newbies, one set for people who are interested in working on development, etc. Defining your users and creating profiles of these users is a key aspect of writing docs (and in developing apps).
er...
Etcetera. I could go on for days about this stuff. My point is this: the OSS movement is sorely lacking in the documentation department. The vast majority of docs that exist are written by the people who developed the applications, which means that most of it is far too technical for the average user. Most of the docs are also written about the particular product rather than about how to use the product. It's extremely important that documentation is task-based and user-based rather than technology based. Writing docs like that isn't nearly as easy as some might think, because as soon as you know how to use a product, you tend to start skipping the details when you write it up.
Oop...I got rambling again. Sorry.
We need docs. We need good docs written by people who know how to write docs. I volunteered to help the documentation effort for one product but I never got any feedback from the coordinator. I'd like to help. I am not a coder, but I do have skills which I think would be useful in context of the larger OSS movement. The problems are: writing doesn't have the same prestige value as hacking code; writing tech docs is not an activity that can be done in communicative isolation (which means we can't just sit in our basements crankin' this stuff out like code hackers do); developers (in general) don't want to be bothered with docs or with helping writers with docs...etc.
Ach. I could go on and on. And on
We need good docs. If there are any other tech writers out there who are interested in chatting about this stuff, email me. I could start a linux-writers listserv and we could start hashing out some ideas.
- dria
You realize that it doesn't matter what Gates says, right? I mean, the man was on a roll for a long time, but he and his company are losing credibility these days. No...let me rephrase that...they're hemmoraging credibility. The main stream press reports what He says, and the main stream press also reports what He does. They also report all the DOJ shenanigans, etc etc etc.
What Gates does or does not say will have Zero impact on this movement. Nothing Gates can say will impact the quality of Open Source code. Nothing Gates can say will stop people who know what they're doing from turning to Linux and Apache for their file server and web server solutions. Nothing Gates can say will stop the growing throng of people who are turning to Linux and Open Source Software.
People who know computers know that Microsoft stuff sucks. Nothing Gates can say can stop that. There are more computers out there than ever before, and the number is growing. There are more people out there using computers. There are increasing numbers of people who understand computers and are experienced with them.
Gates/Microsoft continues to try to keep users from becoming skilled computer users by hiding all the "hard stuff" from them. This is in their best interest, of course, because people who know computers know that Microsoft sucks.
Nothing Gates can say or do can stop this. His company's success in making the computer more prolific is dooming him where it should have created a Microsoft world. You know what their failures are:
1) They make crappy software.
2) They market to the lowest common denominator.
The second anyone tries to do anything with their computer that is outside of M$'s narrow little definition of the "average user" they realize just how horrible and limiting and frustrating MS products can be.
Anyhow...I'll wrap up by repeating myself: it doesn't matter what Gates says. He cannot stop us, so ignore him. Not even the main stream press really takes him seriously anymore...not with everyone in the world launching a lawsuit against 'em.
- dria
When I was a kid, parents used to blame role-playing games (AD&D primarily) for stuff like this. It's simply that parents don't want to take responsibility for the fact that their children are twisted little socially-maladjusted freaks, so they hold up the first scapegoat they can lay hands on. These days it's violent movies and video games. It used to be role playing games. Before that it was rock & roll.
None of these things are banned yet, tho', so I wouldn't worry about it too much. The courts (of most countries) have plenty of precendent on record that will avoid really stupid things from happening.
- deb
In the long run, the OSS movement isn't about leaders or corporate acceptance or the public perception of this community. This movement is about software, dammit, nothing else. Sure, Linux and OSS are currently in the spotlight, but that's a new situation the community is being forced to deal with. Soon enough the spotlight will swing and focus elsewhere and Linux/OSS will continue to trundle along in relative obscurity again.
This community doesn't have "leaders"...this community has "significant contributors". No one voted ESR or Perens or Raymond in as spokespersons, they just ended up there because of what they contributed (and continue to contribute) to this movement and to this community. Eventually other people will become the spokespeople for this movement...again, not because they're elected in any fashion, but because of what they do...because of what they contribute.
I'll now hoist up our very own Commanding Taco as prime example. He's a guy with a website fer gawd's sake. No one voted him in as maintainer of this website, he just built the damned thing. And what happened? Boom. The website got popular. Linux/OSS ended up in the spotlight. Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda ends up with a full page spread in Wired, ends up on the Advisory Board for linux.com, ends up being interviewed by the media...blah blah blah. No one voted for this guy for anything. Rob just actively contributed to the movement, and in contributing has ended up as a highly visible potential-spokesperson.
My point? Who the hell cares if Bruce and Eric fight like dogs?Who cares if they hate one another's guts and like airing their dirty laundry in public? I don't care. This doesn't change the amount of respect I have for them, because my respect is earned by their real-life contributions.
Personally I don't give two hoots if there is a wide-spread corporate acceptance and adoption of Linux/OSS. I don't. Even if the current surge in popularity continues unabated, it's going to be *years* before I am able to use Linux full-time in the workplace. Corporate adoption isn't just about getting word out about the quality of the software. There's a whole lot of other issues that have to be overcome: changing platforms is high-risk; retraining staff who have been trained on Windows for years is an expensive proposition; hiring staff to create and maintain the networks is also expensive; there are huge gargantuan piles of data lying around in proprietary format; there are tons of widely used proprietary applications which do not have Open Source equivalents yet.
Etc. As long as there are people who are willing to continue developing OS software, it doesn't matter at all if the corporate world adopts OSS. Not yet...not for years yet. This isn't going to be a Sudden Sweeping Change that zooms around the world leaving millions of smiling happy OSS users around the world. Right now the spotlight is on this community. The spotlight will move on long before Total Global Domination is a reality.
So...who cares if these guys fight? Let 'em have at it. It's entertaining the hell out of the press, and it's not like none of us have seen a flamewar before.
In the long run this movement will be a success not because of our spokespeople, but because of the quality of the code, documentation, and technical support. Not to mention the full-on support of open standards and a foundational philosophy that is non-exclusionary and puts powerful computing tools into the hands of the common people. Viva la revolucion, and all that.
- dria
Perl programs strongly resemble line noise. You have to be either a masochist or brutally obsessive-compulsive to actually take the time to decipher the majority of programs written by someone else (and sometimes yourself). Perl is pretty in the same way that a mutant-child is pretty to its mother. "A face that only a mother could love" and all that.
- d
If the guys want to watch geek girls, maybe they can convince RedHat to give the girls who enter a bit of an edge on winning.
;>
I'm a geekchick who uses RedHat and could use a couple of days holiday. I'd put up with being leered at by a webs-worth of geekboyz for a couple of days if it meant a free vacation.
- deb
Oh don't be such an ol' stick in the mud. I got duped as well (until all three sites went down at once, on this of all days). Still...it was funny. It's good for slashdot to have a sense of humour...it'd be horrible if Rob & Co started taking all of this too seriously.
:)
:)
Two thumbs up to everyone involved with the joke. It was brilliant
- deb
Because that's the essence of democracy.
This community is not a democracy. The OSS movement is more like the Klingon High Council: if you do something, you get to decide how it gets done. The more you contribute, the more decision-making power you have.
You disagree with how someone has done something? Don't complain about it...do something about it.
Democracy? No. Not even close.
- d
Blowing our chances of what? Of maybe creating a healthy and supportive community that will carry this movement beyond the current hype and actually continue the work that is being done until finally, Finally, we can (as ESR puts it) live in a world without crappy software.
A revolution doesn't last if all the revolutionaries get tired of fighting and go home. If you give people a reason to take up arms alongside, they will. Equally, however, if you give people a reason to remain neutral or to ally with the enemy, they will. A revolution is not built on good ideas alone. A revolution is the product of people working and fighting together towards a common goal, often reconciling their own differences for the good of the movement as a whole.
That possibility...the possibility of actually creating a movement of solid and lasting potential...that's what we might be destroying.
The phrase "our terms" refers to a plurality. "Our terms" are defined by the community as a whole. You're not talking about "our terms" here...we have never defined "our terms". You're talking about your interpretation of the "terms" which just might not be correct.
- deb
Why did you post this? Do you think that ESR really doesn't understand what's going on? Do you think that his obvious generalization of slashdot readers as "kiddies" actually applied to everyone?
Perhaps you should have taken the time to read the whole article...take the small biting criticism for a moment, but then read on. Perhaps you would have seen the part about being civil to one another, and about not burning out our advocates.
Your flaming is not only unnecessary and uninteresting, it's also foolish in the face of the article to which you are reacting, *particularly* because you didn't read the whole thing.
Civilized discussion and the open exchange of ideas is a good and proper thing, and it's one of the things that makes this community what it is. Unbridled flamage is just a waste of everyone's time.
To mangle a Confucian saying:
"If words are not better than silence, keep silent."
Or, to mangle a cliche:
"If you don't have something constructive to say, don't say anything at all."
I think that's maybe the crux of ESRs article...the foundation of what he's trying to say. You should read it.
I, for one, know that he wasn't referring to me when he called slashdot people "script kiddies". Truth always hurts more than lies.
- deb
Okay...everything negative that can be said about this article and about Rob's editorial policy has already been said.
I would like to point out that:
a) nobody's perfect, not even El Taco himself
b) everyone has a bad day
c) everyone makes the occassional blunder
Now, that said, I think that we can all agree that the general quality of slashdot is pretty damned high, and getting higher all the time (thanks be to the gods for comment moderation...*hallelujah!*).
Just 'cuz CT fumbled the ball this once doesn't mean that the overall quality of slashdot is suddenly dropping. Just 'cuz ol'TacoHead had a bad day doesn't mean that he's suddenly turned into a bumbling moron.
Rob has done a *phenomenal* job with this site and everything related to it. My god people, have some respect.
Now, since everything negative has already been said, let's give it a rest and move on, okay?
Thanks.
- deb
A lot of the frustrated and "not worth bothering" users that used to like reading comments until they have gotten this huge may possibly come back.
It's true. Not only do I now read the comments again, I actually feel like it's worthwhile contributing to the comments because people might actually see them. Before the moderation/scoring system you always had to wade through all the random crap ("first posts", flames, stupid oneliner "me too"s, etc) in order to find the posts that are actually worth reading.
Now that the moderation system is in place, tada, just pick a threshhold level, and you're set.
It's genius. Really. I've never seen a system like this before, and it really works. Not only do users get a lot more control over what they see, Rob & Co get to dodge the "censorship" bullet. A fine bit o' innovation, and definitely one of the most important improvements to slashdot yet.
Keep it up guys. You rock.
- deb
Thanks for the response Bruce. It's reassuring to know that Apple is still working on this whole thing...it would have been easy enough for them to grab the "open source" label, slap it on their license, then just ignore the ensuing chaos (well...at least until someone legally contested their use of the trademark, if that ever happened).
:) is a success. No, this doesn't mean just kowtowing to the wishes and commands of a host of corporate drones (ew...that's quite a visual). It would be irresposible of us to do so, even if we were able.
I think that Apple is sincere about all of this. I don't think that it's just a matter of them trying to take advantage of the growing Open Source hype to further their own ends. Sure, that's part of it, but it can't be the whole story.
It's exciting to see the community rise up and do such a rigorous 'peer review' of the APSL...it is, after all, what has made the Open Source thing so great. It's also exciting to see such a major player as Apple revise their thinking like this and actually have the guts to actually give this a try. Sure, they have some corporate interests that must be served...they are accountable to their shareholders after all...and it shouldn't surprise us if they try to leave themselves a backdoor escape route in case this experiment comes crashing down around their ears. It would be massively irresponisble of them to do otherwise, really.
It's up to us ("us" being a pretty loose and all encompassing term referring to the OSS movement as a whole) to help make sure that the Apple Open Source Experiment (AOSE
What we can do to ensure that the AOSE is successful is to voice our concerns in a calm and rational and yet persistent manner. No one wants to come play in the sandbox if they end up getting kicked and bloodied every time they show up. But if we calmly and rationally work with them until they understand the rules we play by, and if they're willing to change how they work so their goals are not incompatible with our own, then we could very well end up with a major ally in this ongoing drive towards a world of free and open software.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: in a just society, people are innocent until proven guilty. Apple, however, is in many ways being treated like a criminal in spite of the fact that their "guilt" has yet to be determined. That's not doing anyone any good.
Oh, and thanks for clearing up the SPI/Raymond trademark control thing. That really had my brain in a knot for a while.
- deb