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Wired on Bruce/Eric Meltdown
chrisd writes "Anyone
folowing the blowtorches being wielded lately in the
Linux community might want to check out this saturday
Wired News article featuring some commentary on the latest from Eric and Bruce."
← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)
Bruce Perens was targeting ESR with veiled public insults and a lot more in his so called diplomatic press releases. He really seems to have some sort of vendetta against ESR. ESR has his own problems naturally, witness the Halloween documents entry in Jargon.
Social Darwinism is political science for 12 year olds. I guess you're one of those techies who unfortunately missed out on a decent liberal arts education. Your loss -- you're an incomplete human for it, hence a loser, hence destined to die out.
Just like Eric Raymond.
Ok ok ok, get that gun outta my face, i'm gone already.
I have a newsflash for both of you. I live computers, I breathe computers. Software is not only my livelihood but a part of my life, but here's the news: it's just SOFTWARE. It's not going to solve the world's problems, and it's not essential to survival. Being brutally frank, it's desirable but not actually necessary. Compared to the problems of famine, homelessness, pollution, racism and war it's TRIVIAL. You are having a venemous little war, and getting increasingly wound up over something TRIVIAL. Get some perspective. You both look like idiots. I don't agree with RMS on a lot of things, but I've got to give him credit. He may be vociferous in his beliefs, but by Eris, he tries not to act like an asshole in public.
I would rather see free software live a quiet little backwater life and never achieve its potential than see you two fools rip it apart into bloody chunks. I hereby disown both of you, and I ask others to do the same. Wherever I go, I will tell people interested in free software to ignore you. You speak for no-one but yourselves, you are representative of no-one but yorselves. Until either you both mature slightly, or we get someone who really understands how to do this, let free software speak for itself in terms of its achievements.
Sam Ockman is one of the most crass and unscupulous twits I have ever met. Comparing him to Linus is a joke at best.
Chris is opinionated, but I think his track record speaks on its own (read: successful and much more respected)
If PC is so great why has it not been able to retain ONE employee longer than 4 months (other than Sams own girlfriend)? Why does he announce a
8 way SMP Kludgefest (2 450SX boards lumped together) 6 weeks after VA shows their box off at Linuxworld - and then has the audacity to promte the PC box as a 'first'?
give me a fscking break...
Sam is a farce...
No, it's not doublethink.
Defamation involves saying something false. You can make someone look like a fool while telling the truth, particularly if they did say something foolish and you just report it.
Ultimately, I do not care what license
the corporation uses - if it's not GPL
or BSD, I won't even glance at the code.
ESR's endorsements mean about as much as
Jesse Berst's comments. Attracting
corporations is done through benefits of
open source, so they will either do what's
necessary to attract developers (i.e. GPL or
BSD their code), or stay away. Either way
is fine. Listening to ESR and helping his
subvertive cause OTOH is not.
I have sent emails to all three people listed above.
When reporting an "Open Source" trademark infringement, ESR responded promptly and courteously. When trying to understand "Open Source" better and the interrelationship between code borrowed from differing licenses into a conglomerated product, he clammed up and became a real jerk. I think I hit a sore spot because he didn't know the answer and was embarrassed to say so.
Either way, ESR always responds promptly. I'll give him that much.
Perens has always responded to me, and even when talking about controversial issues, he seems to be pretty level headed (unlike the reputation he's earned from a few high-profile "I quit!" type headlines on slashdot). He's not always fast, but he's thorough.
I've written to RMS before and he has always flat out ignored me. I asked him for advice on how to sell my management on GPL and he wouldn't even do me the courtesy of a simple "bugger off and die" response. We owe a great deal to RMS for the current success of Linux, but these days he is a hermit.
If you ever do get an email from RMS, notice how the "king of all hackers" doesn't even understand the simple email courtesy of quoting the the text he is responding to with any kind of dilineating characters. Check out the Kernel Mailing List archives for his latest "Gnu/Linux" diatribes to see what I mean.
Oh Eric, why are some people so sick of you that they just want to puke?
I'm sorry, but that looks suspiciously like an opinion -- worse yet, an informed opinion! Have you cleared it with the OSI board? We wouldn't want to have to do anything bad to you, now would we? We can't have all these people running around endangering our tribe!
Watch your step.
that Raymond would not have done this publicly, in your opinion. We are able to imply that he would have done this in private. To you that's a significant difference. Try to understand that that makes you look rather like a dolt. There's no difference in a private vs. a public threat. You all are fools. The guy next to you telling you that your not a fool is a fool. Go and get some professional help, all six/seven of you.
ESR has his own problems naturally, witness the Halloween documents entry in Jargon.
Jesus Christ, that's disgusting.
Bruce Perens was targeting ESR with veiled public insults and a lot more in his so called diplomatic press releases.
Maybe you have to know Bruce to get what he was driving at. I don't, and what I've seen looked pretty reasonable to me.
so that you could learn to spell, to punctuate, to type and to proofread those big, long, posts with as many as eight words in them.
Oh Eric, I knew you'd visit Slasdot and clear this all up, apologize, and admit that sometimes you get just a little CRAZY & want to do things to Bruce that HURT him, but that you only feel that way sometimes, like when he has his OWN opinions about things. Oh Eric, why are some people so sick of you that they just want to puke? Why don't they understand that you're SMART, and RIGHT, and NOT LIKE THE REST OF MERE HUMANS? What's wrong with ALL of them, Eric. I'll stop now so that you can apologize to Bruce for having to talk to him in a way which he thoroughly deserved!
Bruce was the one that posted it to the Debian list. I'm not sure I would consider SVLUG officers a public mailing list
I've seen ESRs page and he does come accross as a trigger happy nutcase, I can understand Bruce over-reacting like that.
spblunt@ozemail.com.au - too lazy to log in
I heard that Apple is going to release their Quicktime Streaming Server as open source! Way to go, Apple!
You crack me up dude.
First you soliloquize about the GPL and the general coolness of free software and then you go right ahead and put a copyright message on your lame posting?
And when has it become fashionable or even acceptable to post private email messages to the public?
Maybe "The ULTIMATE Cripple" would be a more fitting handle for you.
The contents of the discussion would not be considered private, but the _exact words_ normally would. If it was a face-to-face discussion, about the only way you could get the exact words would be to use a recording device, and most people would agree that this _is_ an invasion of privacy.
Guns are bad.
Microsoft is a technological innovator.
Ground troops in Kosovo.
All knee-jerk, media-supported crap. Don't
believe any of the above.
the entire programming community (which I represent)
No, I represent them! How DARE you endanger the welfare of our tribe like that!
MUST question both your intelligence and your motives.
No, they must question YOUR intelligence and YOUR motives, because you fed chili to your poor dog! Jesus, if that don't put a hurtin' on it, I don't know what will.
Actually, IMHO the Anonymous Coward (whose name is Legion) has more claim to represent the community than ESR, BP, RN, RMS, and fucking Morton Downey Junior all rolled into one. Ze ma yesh, baby.
:)
agreed 100%. both of these clowns need to wake up and taste reality once in a while.
Can you guys make it for a show taping a week from today? Great! We'll do the show a day or two later. If Eric can bring some of his guns, that would be great! Bruce can play the straight guy, Eric can play the nut. I'll kind of stand around with that shit-eating grin that I usually have, and my stage hands will pretend like they don't want Eric to shoot Bruce, but YOU GUYS CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT! Guns, Costumes, Open Source, Oh God, Anything! Gosh, I just creamed. See You Next Week!
Yes, Bruce, you offended me.
So Bruce, watch your step.
No, I'm not saying that I am going shoot you.
By taking this private email, making it public, and implying that I made a threat warranting police involvment, we would all certainly look silly, wouldn't we?
Think about it, Bruce.
bye
Bruce Perens has asked that we not talk about this see his threat
First, don't you know that this thread is about guns and shoot 'em ups, not the quality of one's writing.
Even then, my essay "Use letters GNU in the name of your linux distro and make a Fashion Statement" has far better literary quality than anything you can point to. Take that with my other essays called "Firearms and Open Source, not Mutually Exclusive" and "You Too Can Make Your Own Software License" and you can pretty much see that I am King.
I hearby take charge of this here movement, so I can rid it of this infernal internal bickering, and unite all hackers, under the banner of the NRA (No Reputable Actions).
If you disagree with this, I will feed my cats a bowl of chili and they will scratch both you and your funiture.
I am sorry that it has come down to this.
Code King
"What does RMS stand for?"
It stands for "Root Mean Square", the standard method of calculating audio amplifier wattage. Nya, nya, nya! I've got more guitars than you have guns. So much for your puerile, disingenuous "Nacho Thesis", eh?
brilliant ASCII tome (EBCDIC version also available)
No unicode? For shame!
. . . the Rob Malda-led conspiracy . .
As if there were only one.
the entire slashdot community,
To hell with the slashdot community! I am the chief spokesprophet for the entire human race and nine forms of yeast. I really shouldn't tell you this (lest it endanger our tribe), but right now I'm forming the Open Krill Initiative, a non-zero-sum foundation which will speak for little shrimplike critters in the brief moments before they get et by whales.
He does have something to fall back on after he shoots up his computer.
The mail was not private - Eric wrote it on a mailing list. But the point here is that threats are never OK. Neither is it OK to stomp on opposition or shut off debate. Read the APSL Open Letter that Eric was responding to. It is a polite and welcoming letter pointing out some technical problems, and hardly worthy of a threat in response.
Oops, sorry Bruce, didn't read that before I replied.
spblunt@ozemail.com,au
of kids who worship a gun-toting yahoo. And we don't need this kind of instability in this company. We don't need to risk anything on open source. You're right; there is far too much BS surrounding open source. We'll take the parts we want to, and ignore the rest. Thanks. Bye.
You're very good at manipulating people, I'll give you that. Posting your cr@p to debian-user and debian-devel was pure brilliance on your part.
Do we really need to point out your several references to Eric personally instead of say, OSI as a whole, in your so-called polite press releases? It doesn't take a genius to see that you are holding a grudge against a certain someone otherwise your course of actions would have all been less drastic and more reasoned.
These two guys has shown how valuable they really are for the Linux community. It's good to know that they are pure and simple fruitcakes.
The only question now is who is the worst fruitcake and I'll cast my vote on Bruce.
I hope Mr. Dibona applies what he learned from his critique of this little war to his own relationships. It did not take but one BALUG meeting to see his disdain for a gentleman named Sam Ockman. No one quite knows what this is about... Betrayal? Jealousy? They work for rival companies so maybe it is all of the above? Mr. Dibona seems to go out of his way to attempt to embarass Mr. Ockman. What I really would like to say is that too much creative energy is being wasted on adolescent pokes and jibes at the expense of others. Imagine the focus taken away from the work of both Perens and Raymond by childish bickering. I would have to assume that with all the creative energy he has wasted himself, well, it's just a good thing Mr. Dibona does not run VA Research or we could all painfully watch as VA goes down the tubes... A wonderful Linux resource lost.
The whole problem is that everybody has a grudge against Eric, that's it allright. And OSI, that's the perfect ESR maneuver. When Eric wants to flatter himself, and take personal credit, he puts on his Eric hat. When he wants to deflect from himself, and to not accept the blame, he puts on the OSI hat and buries the issue in the OSI group of six/seven so that it's all anonymous and that OSI never has to respond to anything. Well, hell, it's a self-ordained, self-responsible, fascist little organization, and it can do anything it wants. `Scuze me while I gag on the taste of the whole self-serving, pompous farce that it is.
All GPL programs are copyright. Check the bottom of Slashdot. "All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-99 Rob Malda." Take it easy.
Every once in a while somebody manages to get my picture when I go to the supermarket. I have to stay at different HoJo's so Scully and Mulder can't catch up to me.
BTW, Linus consults me before he makes changes to the kernal.
So get lost before I tell ESR where you live.
Well I'm glad that the article appeared in Wired. Slashdot cowardly refused to publish the story a week ago when it was still considered NEWS.
Anyway, it's no longer fun to flame these two characters. Not even good enough for target practice anymore.
How the hell these two self appointed yahoos managed to accumulate any say in the community is beyond me. The best thing they could do for this community is to quietly disappear and take their silly little disputes over their silly little non-trademarks and their silly little articles elewhere. The free programming community would be much better off if they were endorsing Microsoft or perhaps Fidel Castro.
RMS has been and continues to be a much better advocate for the free programming community. Perhaps age and wisdom will come to these two idiots in time but for the moment they are doing nothing but harm to the free programming community.
Time for all of us to disown these two for a while. They may (or may not) have done some good things in the past, but they need to go away now and hack some code for a year. All they've done in recent times has been negative.
To move from enteraining the thought of physical harm to another person to actually decided to carry out such an action requires a huge breaking of internal morality and societal morality.
Anyone who is capable of doing such a thing is dangerous irregardless of whether or not they own a gun. It is not easier for someone who owns a gun than it is for someone that does not.
While I won't doubt that there are nuts out there, all the gun collectors and enthusiasts I know are very careful with their weapons and even when provoked are no more dangerous than anyone else.
The means to inflict physical harm is a decision of morality not on expedience.
And it sound like you are a quick study. Is it that easy to learn to have contempt for all who don't agree with you? I guess.
And it sounds like you don't give a rat's ass about conflicting your fiduciary responsibilities to VA Research. And it sounds like you and Eric both think that the rest of the world is filled with people who are too stupid to be in the same room with you guys, let alone even have a thought that doesn't flatter you.
I guess we should thank you now for showing us what the weather is like behind the scenes at VA Research instead of making us figure it out way down the road somewhere. It will be a lot easier to understand VA Research now that we've had a chance to see about all we ever want to see over there. We'll remember that you don't have just one nut on the board of VA Research, but likely a whole room, choc full o' nuts.
Doesn't RMS copyright all his news postings etc (in order to stop people quoting him out of context).
He makes a habit of it. He thinks threats are always OK. He's comfortable making threats. He thinks a hollow threat is as good as a real one. He never feels that he should even apologize for behaving this way. He thinks everybody else is stupider than he is, except for maybe Steven Hawking, Albert Einstein and Issac Newton. If Eric Raymond did think there was EVER anything wrong with his behavior or mouth, then he'd be right here apologizing. But he's not ever inclined to feel that way. He's incapable of being self-critical and of behaving in a way that is socially acceptible. And he won't ever change.
So, DON'T accept Jerry Springer's invitation to go on his show with Eric Raymond. Stay as far away from the crazie as you can, and just continue on with your work. You do not need ANYTHING from anyone with as many screws loose as he has.
Just go back to work. That's what will persist even after ESR and OSI pass from the stage, which we all hope will be Real Soon Now.
Ineffective societies die out, successful societies let their members multiply.
And all of the western industrial democracies -- the darlings of social Darwinism (and quite naturally, since "social Darwinism" is a polite term for National Socialism) have birth rates below the rate of replacement. In the U.S., we have enough immigration and enough poor people that the population is still rising, but those are not the people that the social Darwinists are fond of. They talk funny, they frequently have dark complexions, and they eat a lot of spicy food. God bless 'em.
Since when has WIRED been anything but a corporate tool? MSNBC by any other name doth smelleth sweet....
Well I won't post the whole email... I just think it is not quite right to post the whole thing without ESR's permission.
I wouldn't mind sharing the entirety of the email that I sent him.
I am at home now and don't have access to the messages in question. If anyone seriously wants to know, email hedemark@raleigh.ibm.com and I'll be glad to send the original message I sent that got ESR's panties in a knot.
This is just plain sick. I really can't care how good these two can code. This is NOT the kind of leadership the Free Software/Open Source/Linux/etc. community needs! This reminds me of two ego-spoiled toddlers having their little tantrums over who gets to be leader of their clubhouse! If they are such good contributors to the community through coding, so be it! Join Linus or Alan Cox or the multitude of others who spend their time CODING rather than trying to be the "Holy Vanguard of the Free Software/Open Source/Linux Community"
:)
Although WE can ignore such behavior, the CIO or suit who is actually starting to listen to his techies about how Linux might help his company will not. They will simply turn away at this childish foolishness in disgust...back into the warm and welcoming arms of Microsoft NT. As a message to all involved... PLEASE STOP! Your personal ego-feuds could irreparably damage the footholds of trust and acceptance that this whole community has gained these past several months!
I honestly think we need representatives(not necessarily "leaders") who won't blow up and get involved in incidents such as this. Of course Linus comes to mind as a seemingly mild-mannered choice, but we all know he's quite busy now
Respectfully,
Kevin Christie
kwchri@maila.wm.edu
You conveniently forget that you SET OUT to make this matter PUBLIC. You SAID this yourself.
Who knew?
As a free software developer, I must say that Electric Fence helped me a lot in detecting memory allocation problems.
I really wish Bruce would contribute something POSITIVE for once. When was the last time that Bruce said something constructive or positive, and not just complaining things were not going his way? I am tired of his crap.
When contrasted with Bill Gates megalomania and
ESR/Perens failure to stand up under constant public scrutiny, Linus stands out as a real leader. There's the odd heated debate on the kernel list, but I bet its no stronger than happens behind closed doors in corporate meeting rooms.
The last thing we need is a media whore throwing his weight around.
ESR will show-up to some Linux conference with a gun and start firing because somebody looked at him cross eyed.
No, don't worry, his dog told him not to do that.
. . . of an MIT EE PhD who I met a few years back. He thought that the purpose of the halogen in halogen light bulbs was to equalize the internal pressure with that of the atmosphere, so as to prevent failure due to implosion. He knew that halogen bulbs tend to last longer than regular ones, and that was the only explanation he could think of. (When was the last time you saw an ordinary, halogen-less lightbulb implode due to atmohspheric pressure alone?) I'm not making this up. He really belived it. The only programming language he knew was BASIC. (EE, remember). He didn't even know Fortran.
I'm also reminded of an English Lit. professor I had in college, who told that class that semiotics was really great, fascinating stuff, and that he planned to find out what it was as soon as he had some free time.
And then there was the Hopkins grad (BS, psychology) who'd never heard of Tourette's syndrome (I asked him if he suffered from it
So, anyway, from experience, I'm inclined to take formal credentials with a grain of salt. They correlate relatively well with actual education (relative to, for example, "love" and "hate" tattoos on one's knuckles), but it's nowhere near 100%.
I gotta protect the OSI
Right up to the point where you appoint yourself a major spokesperson representing the community. You lose of that privilidge right then and there because you represent the community. I've had my doubts about these two bozos all along and now I know my feelings were justified. I'd just as soon they both took a long walk on a short plank.
Uh, who in God's name are Scully and Mulder? It sounds like a Vaudeville team.
The King is gone, but he's not forgotten.
Don't be cruel, bay-beh.
What the Wired article fails to mention is that ESR is on the board of the company (VA Research) that Chris DiBona works for. Good journalistic practices dictate that these sorts of conflicts of interest are revealed. A better tactic would be to quote someone who is objective in the first place.
Anonymous Cowherd
I can't believe that so many of the posts criticised Bruce Perons. I mean, ok, perhaps notifiying the police was overreacting, and you might not for whatever personal reasons you have, disagree with some things he thinks, but the point is, what ESR did, is way beyond acceptable.
ESR didn't send a little e-mail politely saying, "Let's reconsider our public spats." ESR uses language like "asshole" and says that he'll make Bruce "find a way to regret it"
Wake up folks, I can't believe the objectivity in giving credence to both sides, ESR or anybody for that matter does not have the right to make threats.
Furthermore, I would like to point out again, who does he think he his to say that Bruce is "jeopardizing the interests of our entire tribe." I do not belong to a tribe, and certainely not ESR's. Sorry ESR, I didn't elect you to represent me. Linux is about freedom not following you.
ESR says that he want to spread Linux to the business community, but continues to behave like an unbelievably spoiled baby.
It seems to me that Bruce Perens has been involved in more than his share of debacles recently.
That may well be so, but you're not helping things by blaming Raymond's intolerable misbehavior on the target of that behavior, thereby encouraging Raymond to behave even worse in the future. He will anyway, but there's no need to encourage it. When people behave badly, inventing excuses for them doesn't make them stop.
MY brilliant essay, "Home-Schooling the Nanospore", makes it perfectly clear just how divine Ms. Middler really is. (Spoiler: Pretty damn divine, as it turns out). I can only interpret your mention of catheters as a personal insult intended to diminish my capacity. You have been warned. Watch your step! I'll call you "four-eyes" -- in public! -- if you don't behave your self and bow to my hegemony.
Even so, it was a pretty damn yellow thing of Bruce to feel more fear about his safety just because ESR is a gun fan. This is the sort of bullshit "logic" that makes the most visible gun control advocates look like fools.
Sorry, but that sort of bad reasoning needs to be shot down whether you agree with it or not...
Eric called me a groupie than molested me.
Hey Joe, why do you keep telling people about this. If you want to start the argument, just reply to it yourself.
I think someone has been reading too much Inside Track by that guy Dvorak.
However you may insist that your code represents you, the world outside of Slashdot does not seem to care. They see a couple of loose cannons arguing, destabilizing something they might be able to use. No one wants a shaky product, and to have several people who are supposed to stand for the Linux movement argue makes the software look bad. The code might look good, but the suits and the general public at large can't see that.
Unfortunately we'll never know what happened before ESR lost his temper. Bruce is trying to look like Mr. Nice Guy now, but I don't doubt that he can be an asshole too.
hmmm hmm hmm hmmmmm, hmm hmm hmm hmmmmmmmm . . . !
God, it stirs my blood to hear that! I love the smell of napalm in the morning!
(Disclaimer: Obviously, owning guns doesn't necessarily make you a militarist wacko. There may be a correlation, but that tells us nothing for certain about any given individual, even a jackass like Eric Raymond -- who IMHO is almost certainly not a militarist.)
. . . my belief in social Darwinian evolution: the losers will die out (and, yes, I know, they breed faster).
Have another look at Darwin. If they're breeding so successfully, they're winners by definition -- according to Darwin. Hell, what am I saying? Darwin just described it. They're winners according to nature, which always has the last laugh.
Social Darwinism is a crock, anyway. Having a BMW and a nice house is not a survival trait. As you point out with your comment about breeding, it seems to be quite the opposite.
I think the ultimate goal for this community is to establish a viable, open solution for computer users everywhere. I think the key to that goal is Corporate America.
Sophomoric flaming only hurts Open Source's chances of winning over Corporate America. The head of any IT department has his hands full trying to overcome the CEO's "comfort" with Microsoft. Most CEOs have to be convinced (serious arm twisting) to move in a different direction. It's hard to step towards Open Source when the leaders of its movement are splitting the community. The bickering gives an impression of instability and unreliability.
I'm all for freedom, but airing your dirty laundry only slows down the incredible progress that's been made.
My only fear is that ESR will show-up to some Linux conference with a gun and start firing because somebody looked at him cross eyed. Oh, yes, and he'll be defending the "tribe" when he does so.
What a brutal nutcase.
The only problem is if ESR wanted to come after Bruce, Bruce would probably not have enough time to through on his bullet proof vest. Even then, he can not avoid all members of the Open Source Militia Movement.
After all, they could park a car bomb outside his house at night, snd have it rigged with a little embedded linux microcontroller. Goodbye Bruce!
Posted by The ULTIMATE Crippler:
They used to work together when Sam worked for VA Research. Sam knew how he could do it better and he did. Penguin Computing (one of the Slashdot sponsors) is a result.
But you're right. Sam Ockman has been very mature in letting Mr. Dibona make an ass out of himself in public. Ockman has the kind of maturity and humility that is rare in this community, sort of like Linus Torvalds.
Posted by The ULTIMATE Crippler:
If we ignore ESR, corporations will think all is well in the world and continue to court him.
We need to make noise. Let ESR know we are displeased with him and when he responds to us rudely and without any consideration for who he represents, we let his corporate buddies know that there is a growing difference between "Open Source" and "Free Software".
I would rather have no corporate interest in our community at all than to have corporate interest in crippling the GPL into "Open Source" licenses.
Of course in a perfect world we would have a spokesperson with the zeal of ESR evangelizing the GPL and having it embraced by the likes of IBM, Netscape, Troll Tech, Apple, etc.
Posted by The ULTIMATE Crippler:
Who do you think wrote it?
Like it or not, at least he had the cajones to realize what a monster he helped to create and is now pushing "FREE" over "OPEN".
Posted by The ULTIMATE Crippler:
Bruce recently released united states maps under the GPL. He is active on the autolinux mailing list to help make mobile navigation with Linux easier to implement.
Oh and as far as the objective jab....screw off, freak-boy. I know from objective.
Chris
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
VP, SVLUG
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
maybe the principal should grab them both by the
collar, and put them both on suspension?
Fighting in the hall is NOT OKAY.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
move along, nothing to see here. I SAID....
MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!
From my perspective it is Bruce Perens that has made this fight public by posting that email excerpt.
It wasn't private email; it was on a mailing list.
ESR was trying to avoid mutual public defacing in the interests of the open source community.
Actually, he was quoted in the Wired article saying that he would publically defame Perens. He denied using the word "defame" (as if that made any difference), but announced an intention to "make [Perens] look like a fool and an asshole". He said this to a Wired reporter. That's a public statement.
It takes a little bit of maturity to refrain from acting in like manner when attacked in public.
And, in the recent dustup with Raymond, Perens has consistently shown that maturity. For example, Perens published an open letter questioning the APSL. It was a very mellow, reasonable letter; he was clearly trying not to start a fight, but rather to open a discussion. Now, we get to the immaturity part. Raymond interpreted that letter as a "public insult" and felt that it "endanger[ed] our tribe", and responded to it by flaming and threatening Perens on a mailing list.
to my knowledge ESR has never INITIATED a public attack.
Well, now that you have some more facts you can make up your own mind about it.
If someone truly believes that he is hurting the community, then let's have some specifics.
This has been gone over in great detail, time and again. The current scandal is a good example. Not only is it embarrassing, but look at the genesis of it: Eric "Open" Raymond went ballistic because somebody dared to disagree with him in public. As it happens, he was trying to silence dissent about some terms of the APSL about which a number of reasonable people had some questions. I saw quotes in the press from figures at Apple who indicated a willingness to work with the community. Bear in mind that the QPL, the Jikes license, and the MPL were all hashed out a bit in public, which resulted in a lot of good will towards the vendors concerned. Whether Raymond likes it or not, this is a diverse community, and most vendors are willing to accept the realities of that. Next, we have Raymond's "Nazi Gates" picture; it was a jpeg of a group of triumphant Nazis, with Bill Gates leading them. A lot of people felt that it was childish and in poor taste. It was also blatant emotionalistic propaganda, from somebody who claims to have fact and logic on his side. It was originally posted on OSI's web site; later, he moved it to his own personal page. It may since have been removed entirely.
Raymond has reacted very badly to criticism at other times, as well. Read his two recent "Take My Job" essays for ample proof of that. He simply feels that he is above criticism. Anybody who disagrees with him is written off as a "testosterone-poisoned twerp". He doesn't behave like a representative of a community; he behaves like the owner of a company.
I'm at work, so I really don't have time to go into more depth. Sorry.
Seems to be a reasonable, and quite intelligent guy when he keeps his flamethrower off. I must admit that, since he left OSI, my opinion of him has improved greatly.
ESR, on the other hand, keeps sinking and sinking, IMHO.
---
---
"If you ever again behave like that kind of disruptive asshole in public, insult me, and jeopardize the interests of our entire tribe, I'll take it just as personally -- and I will find a way to make you regret it," wrote Raymond. "Watch your step."
Is that the type of tactful person we want trying to market Free Software/Open Source for us? Not only is he implicitly comdemning public debate, which is bad enough, but the method by which he does it is not very tactful.
I think I've had enough of ESR.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I believe Bruce's paper advocated having around ten spokespeople for the Free Software community. Currently, OSI seems to have several board members, but only one spokesman. The rest of the Free Software spokespeople (Perens, Stallman, etc.) are not connected with OSI, and there aren't a whole lot of them either.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Posted by jtizard:
For many people I'm afraid the resonant phrase that comes out of all this is "Gun Nut". Following the Wired story I looked at ESRs "Geeks with Guns" web pages. I don't know about the US, but from Australia, this sort of stuff reduces the credibility of its author to absolutely nil.
Bad bad move guys.
JT
Posted by The ULTIMATE Crippler:
I engaged in what started as a friendly email conversation with ESR to try to give him some constructive feedback on what I think he is doing well, and where I think he needs to adjust his course a bit in order to better represent our community. In his position, it is easy to get out of touch or biased by corporate sponsored perks and I was just hoping to offer some grounding.
What I got was some very rude chest thumping and ego pumping.
"Hah. I helped *shape* those ideals. I was one of the original GNU contributors. In fact I was writing free software before GNU existed. Please don't lecture me about roots; mine very likely back to before you were *born*."
This is the man who represents you.
What is worse:
1) Bill Gates selling totally proprietary software to those who don't care about freedom?
2) ESR enticing programmers to work on sort-of-free software but ultimately catering to corporate interests and seeking public recognition of his name?
I say #2. Why? The various "Open Source" licenses all look good on the surface. But upon closer examination, you find that they aren't so attractive. Why didn't Apple use the GPL? Because the GPL levels the playing field, and corporations don't like having the same rights as Joe Hacker in his basement.
I totally believe this threat that ESR issued Perens. And while Perens has a checkered past of his own, I am fully in support of his idea to endorse 10 or more public spokespeople for the free software movement and to back Bruce's idea of each person taking about 1/10 of ESR's current workload.
ESR is running around, unchecked, and while I appreciate his efforts I really would feel much better if he were one of ten rather than one of one. I don't want him to quit. But I do want him to listen to us and I do want him to start distributing some of his load to others in the community. Based on emails I have recieved from ESR, and those recieved by others in recent history, I really think we are being represented by a walking time bomb right now.
Posted by Art Pepper:
I can hardly hear any of this over B.G.'s laughter. Both of them sure are making open source/free software looks pretty pathetic.
I'm embarassed by it all.
I've held a pretty nonchalant view of Perens and Raymond since they were appointed (appointed themselves?) speakers for the "movement". Now I'm just embarassed by them. The fight over "Open Source," and now this spat over the APL is distracting outsiders from the forward movement that Free Software projects have made.
When a company's speakers do more harm than good, they get canned. Free Software's "speakers" should be treated no differently.
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
As long as they continue to view this phenomenon as if it were one big monolithic company, they are doing it a disservice. When the heads of a company has a dispute over policy, it affects the output of that company. Projects get cancelled, new alternate projects are created, etc. With OpenSource it isn't like that. ESR, Bruce, and RMS could all die tomorrow and it would have only a tiny effect. Wine people will still work on Wine, Gnome people will still work on Gnome, Samba people will still work on Samba, and so on.
So, yeah, I'm peeved by this public flamewar. Not at the flamewar itself, but at the ignorant media's response, spreading the FUD that this is somehow a drastic problem in the OpenSource community.
Argument is healthy! That's partly the whole point of OpenSource - the best designed software is software that airs its dirty laundry for public comment.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I totally agree with an earlier post: You can talk all you want about how much these guys have contributed to OSS and Free Software and Linux and blah, blah, blah. But this kind of behavoir embarrasses the crap out of me. Every time I hear footsteps in my cubicle, I flinch because I just KNOW that one of my wonderful IT/NT buddies is getting ready to "rib" me about the latest flame war/holy crusade/bitch-fest going on in the Community. Linux people aren't the only people who read Slashdot and newsgroups, Bruce and Eric. The whole world is watching, and you guys are showing your asses.
Please guys, for the sake of the Community, if your going to disagree at least do it in a civilized manner. And if you can't keep it civilized, then for God's sake at least keep it private.
Odd. I've written to RMS before and had timely and helpful answers. I guess YMMHV
Um, nope. I have mail from him using ' ' (four spaces) as an indent. Which may not be the "industry-standard" angle bracket, but hey - at least it isn't supercite
-dan
What ESR wrote in the quote is correct. Whether or not it is appropriate depends on the context. If your mail wasn't as friendly as you claim, then the quote is fine.
In any case, quoting private email on public forums without permission is poor style.
No, I always find it rude when someone quotes a message they got privately. However, there are times where other concerns are more important than politeness, for example if you feel treatened. If Bruce *really* thought Eric might use violence, then his behaviour is excusable.
That RMS believe people should always be able to share all information they have is not surprising. I never have second thought about quoting private email from him. But that doesn't mean ESR share the same values.
Seriously, a good deathmatch in doom would let these guys blow off a lot of heat so they could get back to doing real work. I worry about people who don't relax enough.
And I suppose UNaltered DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED?
Chris DiBona
Evangelist, VA Research
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
VP, SVLUG
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
VP, SVLUG
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
I agree Bruce. If ESR had written such a note in a corporate environment he would be fired. End of story. He made ugly threats. You did rightly by publicizing the letter.
As is the APSL needs works. As is both ESR and Apple know this and have publicly stated that it will be revised as issues come. Bruce himself acknowledges this. Keep in mind that what you see is APSL 1.0 and that it went thru changes before even being released. Taking a vote on this is probably just academic because everyone involved, ESR, Bruce & Apple all admit that the APSL will change sooner if not later as things are worked out. No point in shooting a moving target unless you want to kill it. Too many people around here apparently want to kill it instead of reforming it :-(
...anonymously tho'.
I'm the same Apple list Bruce was on so I cut-n-pasted some email from that list into a submission. I keep all those digests so if anyone wamts to see the relevant ones, feel free to email me.
The list sure is quiet now that Bruce is gone.
Otoh, while I miss his sane comments I can't express how glad I am that those Debian goons are off the list. What a jerk that Stephen Crowley was. He had nothing productive to add to the list and just emailed out misinformed insults all the time.
you said: :-)
'nor ares personality conflicts'(sic)
Ares is the god of War
...Apple paid its internal developers umpty bajillion dollars in development expenses to develop MacOS X.
It is my understanding that Darwin (the part of OSX that has been "open sourced") was developed mostly by BSD developers, not by Apple developers.
Apple is "open sourcing" something that was already open sourced. How nice of them.
--
Mark Fassler
fassler at frii dot com
I was never terribly impressed with his writings. I cannot say that I am impressed with his schmoozing with corporates. I am not sure that ESR, with his rampant unchecked libertarian ideology, can see that his actions end up selling our freedom (Just as rightwing economic orthodoxy trades the freedom of ordinary folk for higher profits and less restrictions for big corporations.)
*sigh*
Please point out any "veiled public insults and a lot more" in Bruce Perens' press releases. I can't find any.
Autoscoring is almost as annoying as listening to this.
Anyone ever see the movie "He Said, She Said"?
For never having been married to each other, they sure sound like a pair of bitter divorcees.
~~~~~~~~
Signature illegible, could be somebody else.
It came in at 3. Blame the moderators for those extra 2 points.
Actually, I'm doing my best to convince Rob that this autorating nonsense is undooing all of the good that moderating does for slashdot in the first place (while staying nominally on topic).
What just astounds me is that I can't blow my nose without it showing up in Wired.
The media is a heartless beast and the law in the US (and other countries) says that, upon achieving celebrity status, one loses their right to privacy. Just don't do something disgusting like blow your nose on your sleeve (or worse, on Eric's sleeve).
Agreed that this is all quite silly. Next time anything like this happens, I'll do my best to bury it.
I can't help but be a Doubting Thomas here, Bruce. Specifically, the fact that you say 'Next time this happens', indicates that you've still not grasped the key to the situation (i.e., DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN). The only thing I can say at this point that is even remotely relevant (having never held true celebrity status) is this: As high-visibility members of this community, you, Eric, and others have an obligation (or at least 'should feel one') to conduct yourselves in a manner which sets a higher standard for others to emulate. -- The mundane members of this community must wear the reputation that its celebrity icons create.
If I were your mother or your 2nd grade schoolteacher, I'd say "You two should be ashamed of yourselves. I want you to shake hands and apologize to each other immediately." -- Alas, adult lives don't seem so easily remedied.
This while bombs were falling in Europe.
No one ever accused the media or a government of having good taste.
~~~~~~~~
Signature illegible, could be somebody else.
I have a brilliant idea. Let's autoscore these two embarrassments really high so we can keep a close eye on their childishness.
~~~~~~~~
Signature illegible, could be somebody else.
Agreed. It would be more useful if you were to include the text of your message, and perhaps his response verbatim. I know it's a lot longer, but you're asking people to make a judgement on someone based on a snippet from an email... I don't think it's right to base such a judgement on so little evidence.
Leilah
~ Leilah
Maybe instead we need to re-examine the idea that in order to be a community, there must not be any kind of disagreement between anyone. The idea that total harmony was essential in family situations was disproved long ago.
Flamings happen, whether they happen online or whether they are hashed out on the front walk - it doesn't really matter. I think the entire Open Source community is able to realize that two people sniping at each other is not going to somehow destroy the whole thing. If the rest of the world is unable to grasp the idea that the petty grievances of two people isn't going to stop this movement, then that's their own (expletive) problem. They'll find out soon enough. Corporate America is sending out internal emails like this all the time - maybe what needs to happen is that more of those emails should make it public.
Not that I'm supporting people acting like a bunch of spoiled 3-year-olds, but I think we should remember that the world's been through a hell of a lot of 3-year-olds in its time.
Leilah
~ Leilah
I think you're right here. I'm embarassed by all this.
It seems to me that Bruce Perens has been involved in more than his share of debacles recently.
Now boys... Take a deep breath...
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
I've never dealt with him personally, but given what he wrote to Bruce and what some other people have said he wrote to them, it sounds like this guy has some serious issues he needs to work out. If he can't conduct himself in a reasonable manner, he needs to go away.
I have little time for people that make personal mail public without asking if it is ok first
Neither have I, but Bruce didn't do that. The thing is, I also have no time for people who make public and personal threats in response to reasonable and polite disagreement.
the public fight is limiting the acceptace of open source, [but] it is of no consequence to Bruce.
If you go back and read Perens' posts on Slashdot about APSL etc., he's been covering for Raymond's misbehavior in a big way -- up until the threat, to which IMHO he overreacted. Still, we all deserve to know what kind of person claims to represent us.
-j
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
I worked hard to learn how to spell received correctly . . . and I'll be damned if I'll sit by and watch someone else get it wrong.
Be that as it may, I assume you are aware of the fact that spelling flames are generally perceived on the net as gratuitous personal insults? In all the excitement [sic
Of course, since spelling flames are generally held in low esteem, you did your own credibility more harm than you did his. So why am I complaining? Ummm . . . Good question.
We really don't know what ESR's threat was in response to, do we, because Bruce took it out of context.
If you read the text of Raymond's threat, he makes it very clear that it was in response to a "public insult", IIRC Peren's tactful and diplomatic disagreement with the APSL. The bottom line here is that Eric Raymond seems to perceive ('i' before 'e' except after 'c', right?
-j
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
ESR is one of six, soon to be seven.
I think he meant public advocates, not board members.
received is spelled received, not recieved.
And "spelling flame" is spelled "ad hominem". Then again, I'm beginning to get the impression that ad hominem attacks are SOP for OSI. After all, this whole mess began with Eric Raymond calling Bruce Perens an "asshole" because Perens had the temerity to disagree publically with Raymond. Apparently that's not allowed. The rest of Raymond's justification of his endorsement of the APSL was, in essence, "It's okay because we say it is and we're in charge here".
ESR really *was* there from the beginning. I know; I was there too.
The beginning of what? OSI? The FSF? Or was Raymond active in the 1970's or earlier? On this point, I'm really just curious. I had always thought that Raymond surfaced in the late 1980's. I don't think it has much relevance to the present issue one way or the other.
. . . merely letting people know that Bruce's behavior is typical of Bruce.
I assume you mean that Bruce is always admirably tactful and diplomatic in disagreements? That's not what most people seem to think. In fact, most of them think that in general, he's as bad as Raymond. Or are you trying to maintain the absurd fiction that Bruce's open letter WRT the APSL was somehow a personal attack on Raymond? Look, we've all read that letter, and we've all read Raymond's somewhat hostile and defensive response to it. If at the time Bruce's letter was perceived as the start of a fight, that was not because of what Perens had done, but because of what we all knew Raymond would do -- namely, take it personally and start a fight. Lo and behold. We were right.
-j
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
"I did not use the phrase 'defamation of character,' nor any semantic equivalent thereof," he wrote. "[On the other hand], the intent of my threat certainly was that I would make Bruce look like a fool and an asshole."
Am I the only one laughing out loud about that little masterpiece of doublethink?
-- Yet another former admirer of Eric "I, thy Advocate, am a Jealous Advocate" Raymond.
-j
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
Sigh.
That's because 'certain people' have been on the net long enough to remember when there was such a thing as netiquette. One of its tenents was that private email is just that; private, unless both parties wish to reveal it.
ESR's post was childish, but Bruce's response of public reposting and calling the police (!) was _way_ overblown.
--Brian
I believe your analogy falls apart when you realize that emails are in essence written down and can be stored for an indefinite time whereas phone conversations are generally not and you have an expectation that they (phone conversations) are not.
These days, everyone knows that email from years back can come back and haunt you.
OK, I'm a little tentative after getting smoked in Atlantic City last week, but I could be tempted if someone out there gives me some good odds on this fight. No guns allowed, of course!
On a side note, I'm a little disappointed how slow Slashdot was to report this. Freakin' _Mac advocacy groups_ have been talking about this for a week now, after Bruce posted Eric's threat to the APSL list. Heh, never thought I'd see the day when Mac newsgroups started scooping Slashdot on open source news. ;-)
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
You can look at this incident in a number of ways, and you can point fingers and lay blame anywhere you want, and anyone can support any take on this just by presenting the "facts" in their own way. However, one thing remains quite clear and indisputable:
ESR sent Bruce Perens a private email, and Bruce posted that message to a public forum.
This is unacceptable behavior on the part of a theoretically responsible adult. Private correspondance should remain private. I know that I would never post an email from someone else without checking with them first, and I'd be mightily pissed if someone posted an email of mine.
So Bruce, if you've got a beef with ESR, don't take it to the people. It's between you and him, not us.
-Snibor Eoj
If Eric was actually making threats against Bruce (I haven't seen the email, so I don't know the precise details), then I think that it was within reason for Bruce to go to the police; that's what they're there for. But to take a personal fight to the Open Source community is, to me, unacceptable behavior. This isn't our fight, leave us out of it. And respect Eric's privacy.
-Snibor Eoj
You may be legally correct, I'm not a lawyer. However, I believe the violation of etiquette, not law, is what people complain about most.
`und Drang' or `Brightblade'?
Anyway... when your NT buddies start ribbing you over an OSS flamefest, tell them, "Yeah! Isn't it great!"
What if the ancestors wanted him/her to say ``fuck''?
Social Darwinism is about the surviving and thriving of ideologies, not people. And yes, it does exist, it's just a lot more complicated than most people think.
Bruce is afraid Eric might shoot him like I'm afraid you might shoot me. He was just looking for an excuse to make Eric look stupid.
Someone needs to whack ESR with the Clue Hammer(tm) real soon now. We can't have a "leader" that responds to criticism with even ugly character defamation, let alone what looks like the threat of violence.
I don't really care how many lines of code ESR has done in his life, that doesn't make him qualified to be the "leader" (read: dictator) of the Open Source movement. Really, I don't see what programming experience has to do with it at all. I bet all that coding made him less social in fact. He sure does act like he's 31337 or something.
I'm sure this isn't helping Bruce get any of his work (whatever that may be) done. Bruce has better things to do then worry about when ESR will decide to flame him again. Once again, Bruce doesn't deserve this kind of treatment, even through private e-mail. I guess I'd have to support him on making the threat public, if only because I feel the public has the right to know about our leaders' behavior.
What we need is a leader who isn't afraid to take suggestions and can disagree with them courteously (unless they're truly insane and stupid), and is a PHB type who can explain to other PHBs all the advantages of OSS so that it actually sounds attractive, yet has enough guts to stand up against perversions of Open Source.
So, any takers?
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
have you noticed that there are two kinds of "leaders" in our "movement"?
there's the guys who do the work, and make things like Linux kernels and Perl compilers happen.
then there are other guys who are esteemed most highly as they code and least lightly as they flame.
I also have a 17. And a nice SIG 229. I don't carry either. They spend their time in a vault. I enjoy shooting in competition. It is a challenge, and it is at the same time exciting and safe. It is not the implement, but the mind, which is the most dangerous weapon on earth.
As a life member of the NRA, and a former rifle competitor and pistol competitor I have to say that I am very disapointed in ESR. People who are so public about their shooting hobby have to be very careful about what they say, just to make sure that they don't give the wrong impression. ESR should have known that. He let his judgement be clouded by his dislike of Mr. Perens.
This is just one more reason for me to think that ESR is doing more harm than good. Of course in this case the harm that he is doing is not just to the cause of his "tribe", but to the cause of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
Eric wants general acceptance of open source, he sent a private email telling Bruce to pull his head in, for very good reason. Bruce is damaging his cause. Bruce wants a particular model ahead of popularity of any model, for him a public fight is of no consequence. Eric's email is now public.
Personally I have little time for people that make personal mail public without asking if it is ok first, but that my view.
No use complaining that the public fight is limiting the acceptace of open source, it is of no consequence to Bruce.
I think the lesson for Eric is very clear, be very careful of "free radicals". They limit you life span, and it would seem affect ones calm-a.
Since a lot of people with blowtorches are going to be coming through here, maybe I can redirect you. On this site, someone has started a Gnome Vs. KDE flame war. If you want to vent and simply flame, maybe this would be a place to do it, and leave poor Rob's server alone. BTW...Gnome was dogged first, just so you know.
...Never ask an Electrical Engineer why, just nod your head and back away slowly.
If Eric, Bruce, or anyone else in a highly visible position starts to do damage to the "Open Source" community they will simply be ignored and someone else will get a chance to speak. It's a good thing that nobody elected these guys to their position- it makes it easier to take away their power if they head off into the weeds.
. . .by the time someone gets worked up enough to entertain thoughts of premeditated physical harm it really doesn't make much sense to single out the gun owner vs. the non-gun owner...someone in that state is going to cause trouble regardless. It is absolutly trivial for anyone, anywhere to make, buy, improvise or steal any number of possible/potential deadly weapons. . .
I have to disagree. It is not absolutely trivial for anyone, anywhere to come up with weapons as deadly as guns. Take my dear old mother, for example. Even with her sharpest kitchen knife, she doesn't present a threat to any sort of healthy young person. With a gun, however, all she has to do is pull a trigger, and if she's close enough she can kill anybody. That's a huge difference. A non-gun owner who gets angry and wants to kill someone (using a gun) has to either find someone who has a gun and steal it from them, or find their local gun store and pass background checks and find the money to purchase the gun. These steps may not be difficult, but they make things different than for the person who has a loaded gun sitting in the drawer.
If you have a gun handy, it is easier to act on a violent impulse than if you do not have a gun handy. That is why I argued that Bruce was correct to be more concerned with a threat from an armed ESR than he would be with a threat from an unarmed ESR.*
*my main motivation was in debunking the AC's claim that such logic was bunk, when I believe it to be sound. It is the logic of the argument, rather than the conclusion that Bruce came to, that I was interested in. Fate of the philosophy major.
. . . it was a pretty damn yellow thing of Bruce to feel more fear about his safety just because ESR is a gun fan. This is the sort of bullshit "logic" that makes the most visible gun control advocates look like fools.
I seem to have missed your argument, mr. coward. If you could be so kind as to show us what's wrong with the following:
-----
Scenario 1 - someone who does not own any weapons is mad at me
Scenario 2 - someone who owns deadly weapons is mad at me
The 2nd scenario is more threatening, because, all else being equal, the person who is angry at me and has weapons could more easily act on his anger by harming me.
-------
This doesn't lead me to say that Bruce is justified in fearing harm from ESR, but it does suggest that he is justified in being more afraid due to ESR's ownership of guns than he would be if ESR didn't own guns.
Technical errors aside (you display ignorance of firearms)
If I am ignorant, then enlighten me. What am I missing out on here? You're saying there's more to firing a gun than aiming and pulling the trigger?
(Obviously there can be much more to it than that, but is there necessarily more?
I shoot for target/sport only, I do not hunt, I do not conceal carry and I do not keep weapons in my home for self defense.
jslag said:
The 2nd scenario is more threatening, because, all else being equal, the person who is angry at me and has weapons could more easily act on his anger by harming me.
I can understand where jslag was coming from with this -- although I would argue that by the time someone gets worked up enough to entertain thoughts of premeditated physical harm it really doesn't make much sense to single out the gun owner vs. the non-gun owner...someone in that state is going to cause trouble regardless. It is absolutly trivial for anyone, anywhere to make, buy, improvise or steal any number of possible/potential deadly weapons.
I groaned to myself when I read that Wired article -- I personally believe that it was too big of a leap for someone on one end of a (public no less!) email flame war to jump to the conclusion that because ESR owns weapons, he represented a physical threat. My impression was that Bruce acted a bit to quickly in advance of better judgement -- it was a quick and dirty way to generate some press and attack a critic by playing on stereotypes that all firearm owners are lunatics or not in full control of their faculties.
Mind you this is just my $.02 :) As individuals we are responsible for much of our own security and I don't want to knock Bruce for doing what any normal person would do if he/she felt threatened. I just personally feel that in this case it was a bit of stretch to reach that judgement and it brought a whole new negative light onto the whole deal.
I agree with you on most points, but let me offer you this as a devil's advocate.
Apple should not have the same rights as Joe Hacker, as the Apple paid its internal developers umpty bajillion dollars in development expenses to develop MacOS X. They are a corporation, which means that they borrowed their umpty bajillion dollars from stockholders. They have a responsibility to those stockholders to safeguard those dollars (IE they can't just give the code away under GPL), but they are trying to find a way that they can protect their investors' dollars and also do open source.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I was given to understand that it was a lot more than that. There's more to MacOS X than BSD with a cool desktop. Now, I can't take this argument much further, because I probably wouldn't recognize the source code for their Carbon API from a hole in the ground. : )
You're right, though, if all it is is BSD, that's kinda stinky. I know BSD is a significant chunk of the stuff they released, but not all of it.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Can't we all just get along???
Tapping your phone to record conversations and then playing those conversations back for public consumption is a better analogy IMO. I don't consider this acceptable, do you?
In writing an email to a recipient, if I had intended on letting the rest of the world to read it, I would have cc'd the rest of the world.
In the situation where someone shows up at your doorstep threatening you. No one would fault you for informing the authorities. However, we're talking about general net-iquette here and as with all policies...different rules apply to different situations.
"The contents are not private unless specifically identified as such."
Why not reverse this and declare everything private unless otherwise stated?
So what? I agree with dria. All this talk of
'the Community', 'our Leaders', 'the Movement'
reminds me of bad SF novels and certain political
ideals that were popular around 1940.
Does Godwin's Law apply to slashdot?
So what? I agree with dria. All this talk of
'the Community', 'our Leaders', 'the Movement'
reminds me of bad SF novels and certain political
ideas that were popular around 1940.
Does Godwin's Law apply to slashdot?
Admittedly, this will make corporate types a little more leery of open source in the short term. But it is probably good for them to learn that this is part of the way we are. Once they see enough flame wars, they will realize this is one of the ways that we amuse ourselves. They will also realize that we are very independent and don't like to be manipulated.
That said, ESR and Perens (RMS, too) need to grow up a little bit. Certainly, they have the right to speak, but I wish they would stop pretending that they are speaking for me, and I wish they would get a little perspective. Proprietary software is not the work of the devil, and open source/free software is not the savior of mankind. Software is a tool, and tools are intrisically amoral. Morality comes in how we use the tools.
In this case, perhaps you meant to say, WATCH WHERE YOU STEP.
This is a very murky situation. The truth is always somewhere in between what most people will ever see. Perens is a nice guy, I've conversed with him via E-mail several times about various things. How many figure-heads of the Open Source community will reply to you? I do not know since I have not really tried many times. From what I can tell ESR seems a little strung out / overdosed on jolt I mean Come on. Does anyone really appreciate someone who cannot control his testosterone and make intelligible replies other than 'youll regret that asshole etc. etc.' thats no way ANYONE who is supposedly very qualified to relate linux to suits and people who mean so much to open source. Its just not going to work. I can just imagine what my boss'd say to me if I called someone we work for an ahole.. Thatd be great. They may not work for each other butt they both work for the same ideals and goals. From personal experience.. being rude will get no one anywhere. Perens may have taken it a leeetle far. And no one knows what has been said between them so no one really knows the truth as I said it lies somewhere inbetween so we can only speculate from what we have seen these two great people say publicly. So perhaps all of our decisions are biased/unfounded? Who can say for sure. A thing you can be sure about is that this is not helpful for anyone when you resort to words you learned at eight and had your mouth washed out for using. This sort of stuff makes ME personally weary of using open source to any large capacity in our business. Not now but in the future I will probably be a factor in these sort of decisions in our company. I doubt I can sell people a product that is uncertain and seems unstable.. no matter how great I personally know it is. :-) My words most liekly not to live by are now known to the rest of the world. :-)
Jeremy Allen
knights@hom.net
>I'm surprised that all those hoplophobes out
>there who seem convinced that mere possesion of a
>firearm is a danger because of the chance of
>being easily triggered into homicidal fury, are
>content to let even cops carry guns.
I agree strongly. It's directly contradictory to the hacker ethic that the possession alone of a particular tool, much less competence in the use of same, inherently inclines one to abuse it.
Some keywords for the NSA in the Lord of the Rings universe: One Ring bind find Sauron quest Nazgul freedom
I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone is saying that it can't be done, but that it must be done fairly. To pick out 1 or 2 heated statements at the end of a flamewar and post it to justify your own self-righteousness is misuse.
To use your example, sure you could tell us that so-and-so showed up at your house and screamed threats at you, and everyone would nod their heads and commiserate with how mistreated you were, but it would make a lot more sense, say, if we all knew that you had just violated his wife.
You can wave the Fair Use flag, but I choose to take email quotes with a healthy dose of skepticism. Those who use this tactic to bolster their position, in my opinion, do so with great risk to their reputation.
I engaged in what started as a friendly email conversation with ESR to try to give him some constructive feedback on what I think he is doing well, and where I think he needs to adjust his course a bit in order to better represent our community.
Hrm... Pardon me for being a little skeptical about your "friendly email", but it seems a bit unfair to post an out-of-context clip of someone's email without also posting the content that caused someone to think that you were lecturing him.
Ya, ya, I know, everything in the universe sucks: It's the law, ya know.
:)
No, nothing sucks. It just blows inversely.
If the OSS folks were to take a vote, how many would support ESR's stance on that APL?
/. on the issue of the APL in regards to ESR.
I humbly request a vote via
Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
this movement right around and go back into obsurity.
Just as open source is gaining popularity and more importantly credibility, these two bozo's have to start acting like 5 year olds.
Indeed it does look like there is bad blood between them, but this should not be aired as pulic laundry. In order for open source to be accepted as a legitimate movement the parties involved have to present a united front. Even if they can barely stand to hear each other's names.
-Kit
-Kit
Anyone who thinks ESR has logic and reason on his side doesn't read his writing. I've come to believe that the quality of his writing is in inverse proportion to how much whatever it is he's writing involves Microsoft. "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" is well thought out and informative. "How To Be A Hacker" explained a few things I suspected about myself. The last three "Halloween" documents were sad attempts to make Microsoft look foolish (let them do that themselves). He hates Microsoft, pure and simple, and that hatred colors everything it touches.
Anyway back to your regularly scheduled feud.
Since when is reporting the news a problem?
-- "I believe the human being and the fish can coexist peacefully." - George W. Bush, 29 September 2000
Well said, dria!
It's the code that is our representative.
Flamewars happen. I think I'll go recompile a kernel or two.
Bruce Perens is unstable. He should be on Prozac. ESR is a gun-toting looney who is dilusional and secretly fantasizes that he is Richard Stallman. Neither makes a good spokesman for free software. If both of these clowns disappeared from the scene tomorrow the free software movement would be better for it.
This is a meaning less side show, but it is fun (like Jerry Springer!).
We handcuff the two of them together, and drop them off in the middle of the wilderness with nothing but a bag of nacho chips and jar of salsa.
By the time they make it out, they'll be best buds.
Either that, or they'll get eaten by a pack of hungry racoons.
One of the two.
Either way, we won't have to put up with these rather senseless flamewars, which are beginning to drag on a bit long, and no longer appear to have anything to do with what they were orignally about (what were they originally about again?)
-Lung
Self-elected. Self-promoting. Questionable anti-social tendencies.
Public debates are our strength, even if they are sometimes childish. If we are afraid of letting others know how we feel, then we'd best shutdown /. now.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Hackers are excellent coders, great engineers and rather intelligent. However, they tend not to make the best public figure for courting the business world. An article like this is perfect FUD fodder. Unstable "leaders" make for an unstable community.
We know that Bruce and Eric are not our lead developers or descision makers for our community, but an article like this doesn't convey that to Mr. Business Reader. In the beginning, the merits of our community were based on the stability of our code. Now the merits of our code will be based on our stability as a community. When we all sat in basements, bedrooms, labs and offices... flame wars were fine. Now that our "leaders" are the center of attention, I think flame wars need to be kept private, or not fought.
Just my $0.02
Get a life, not a lifestyle. - Hikem Bey
It is not absolutely trivial for anyone, anywhere to come up with weapons as deadly as guns.
Actually it is, and more so. Up until the Oklahoma City bombing, the worst mass-murder in this country was accomplished by something routinely available to, and purchased by, almost anybody: a can of gasoline.
take my dear old mother, for example. [...] With a gun, however, all she has to do is pull a trigger, and if she's close enough she can kill anybody
Technical errors aside (you display ignorance of firearms), if you really consider your mother capable of killing anybody (with a gun), then she's capable of killing anybody with any of a variety of other implements of death -- such as running over random pedestrians with her car. Perhaps you should seek help for her.
I'm surprised that all those hoplophobes out there who seem convinced that mere possesion of a firearm is a danger because of the chance of being easily triggered into homicidal fury, are content to let even cops carry guns.
-- Alastair
Making somebody look like a fool and an asshole isn't defamation if he really is a fool and an asshole, or if you don't fabricate any of the evidence by which you show that.
Certainly in this context that doesn't seem to be much of a problem, although neither party is all saint or all sinner overall.
-- Alastair
It's stories like this (I have heard similar tales from other people) that put me off emailing ESR. I have some suggestions for the Jargon File, but I shan't bother if I'm likely to get a response like this.
I guess he'd have a point. I've been a member of the "geek community" for only a few years. What could I possibly have to offer?
Someone says, "Watch your step," in an email and the conclusion is that he intends to use a gun against you? Stereotypes and gun control arguments aside, isn't that a bit of a stretch?
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
How DARE you suggest that programmers might sometimes overreact! Clearly, the entire programming community (which I represent) MUST question both your intelligence and your motives. I have a big dog. I just fed him a bowl of chili. I suggest you WATCH YOUR STEP.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
From my perspective it is Bruce Perens that has made this fight public by posting that email excerpt. What was the purpose of that? If he was truly worried for his physical safety, then notify the police and leave it at that. What he did speaks of childish political posturing.
On the other hand, ESR was trying to avoid mutual public defacing in the interests of the open source community. It takes a little bit of maturity to refrain from acting in like manner when attacked in public. Someone correct me (with specifics) if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge ESR has never INITIATED a public attack.
On the other hand, he has done a LOT to promote the growth of Linux and corporate acceptance of Open Source. His efforts have gone a long way in helping me decide to chart a path towards an enterprise solution on Linux for our university. If someone truly believes that he is hurting the community, then lets have some specifics. Otherwise, leave your immature feelings and vague denuciations at the door.
ESR is one of six, soon to be seven.
received is spelled received, not recieved.
ESR really *was* there from the beginning. I know; I was there too.
ESR's threat is believable; not that it would involve violence, merely letting people know that Bruce's behavior is typical of Bruce.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Unless you can give me the URL to an archive page containing ESR's threat, I'm going to continue to believe that it was private mail. It's not the sort of thing which ESR would have done publicly.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Bruce, if you don't post a URL to the message you claim ESR wrote to a mailing list, I'm threatening never to believe you again. If you claim to be Bruce Perens, I'm going to ask for proof. Publicly.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
About the spelling flame: I worked hard to learn how to spell received correctly. It was in my master's thesis about a gazillion times (transmitted was also in there big-time) and I'll be damned if I'll sit by and watch someone else get it wrong.
We really don't know what ESR's threat was in response to, do we, because Bruce took it out of context.
Longevity in the free software movement matters. It shows a certain personal committment to it, as opposed to opportunism.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
In recent years I've noticed that certain people have fanatically expounded the idea that the contents of an email message are private and cannot be quoted without permission from the author. I do not understand this. Excepts from email clearly fall under the Fair Use doctrine in copyright law. Additionally, this is not the way we treat other forms of interaction. If someone called me on the phone, or we spoke face to face, the contents of the discussion would not ordinarily be considered private. Unless someone specifically requests that information be kept private normally we don't ask permission to repeat what people told us to others.
Imagine that someone showed up at my house and screamed threats at me. Would you claim I should not be allowed to tell anyone that he did that without his permission? That seems like a dubious standard and one that is not followed in everyday life. We should apply the same standards to email that we apply to other interpersonal communication. The contents are not private unless specifically identified as such.
First off, that brief email quote almost certainly falls under the concept of Fair Use.
Second, I do not understand why people think email messages are supposed to be considered totally private. If we spoke face to face, you would never consider the things we talked about private unless there was some specific reason to believe they were. (ie, I told you "don't repeat this"). We generally don't have to ask people for permission to relay the things they told us in person to others. I don't see why email is any different.
Hmm. I don't think that is much of a distinction. What is better, for me to paraphrase what you said, almost certainly getting something wrong in the translation, or to post exact words? People complained on this topic about posting a handful of words of context; imagine posting just someone else's interpretation of that snippet. How much more out of context and potentially misleading that is.
The message I replied to specifically made issue of posting private email message. (Which Bruce did not do, BTW). However, you are correct that things should not be taken out of context in order to mislead.
I think Raymond started hacking in the late 1970's. He was certainly around before the late 1980's. He claims to have been one of the first GNU volunteers back in 1982 or 83 and I have no reason to doubt him on that.
Hotheads are nothing new, nor ares personality conflicts. These two people seem to have strong feelings (understatement, eh?) and they erupt every once in a while. This is just normal human behavior. We've all seen it hundreds of times.
The thing I don't get is why so many people make a big deal about it. I bet board members at MS, IBM or wherever get in fights too. But since that is behind closed doors, no one knows about them. In our little world, we don't have as many doors to hide behind, so our spats are public. Does that change anything?
The only thing I can think of is that people look to Bruce, Eric, Linus, Richard and so on as our "leaders" and expect some sort of coup to happen after a fight. While I respect the "big names", I don't feel like I "follow" any of them. I don't have a leader. Our "movement" is lead from below. http://www.perl.org/news.html has a reference to Larry Wall saying that 'Perl culture mandates a "bottom-up" approach.' I think this is true of most (all?) of the open/free/whatever software packages.
Let us listen what these "names" have to say, think about thier ideas, and get on with our lives.
- doug
Look at the database industry - do you think Oracle and Microsoft get along all of the time? Or Apple and Microsoft for that matter? Of course not, and when they disagree, we call it normal competition.
The reason that Bruce and Eric's dispute is such big news is that open-source is being perceived as a "company", and not an industry model. For instance, an open flame-war between Ballmer and Gates would cause some eyebrows to be raised, for sure. But why would an open flame-war between Ellison and Gates cause that kind of response? Hell, there have been dozens of examples of that kind of conflict, and who cares?
What we have to do is strive to promote the presentation and interpretation of the open-source movement as just that: a model for building software. And the same way any other "model" can have within it fierce competition and disagreement (witness the capitalist model), so too can open-source.
No biggie. -p
--
The real Paul Vallee is slashdot userid 2192, and, what do you mean it's not cool to point out your low userid?
I didn't really have a problem with what Chris said in the interview. I mean, he could have said that insults and threats are not cool, but he said I over-reacted, which was fair.
Bruce Perens.
Agreed that this is all quite silly. Next time anything like this happens, I'll do my best to bury it.
What just astounds me is that I can't blow my nose without it showing up in Wired. This while bombs were falling in Europe.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I sent you the mail. Judge for yourself.
Bruce Perens.
I think leadership is really the essence of the problem. As I have posted elsewhere, the hacker community doesn't have that much at stake as far as the OSI is concerned. Furthermore, neither of these guys matters all that much in terms of the software. Fetchmail can go on without ESR, and Debian can go on without Perens. These two aren't really that important. It's our strange relationship with leadership that really makes this such a point of contention.
Note:I must apologize in advance, this comment discusses U.S. politics, albeit in a non-partisan way, for purposes of comparison. My apologies to non-americans, who may not feel the full benefit of the comparison
Hackers as a rule, do not take well to leadership. Witness how ready we are to barbecue anybody who achieves any sort of prominence in the community. Witness my own struggles and failures as president of my high school's computer club. Only the most incredibly self-effacing, such as Linus, are spared. This anti-autoritarian streak is generally a Good Thing, keeping us from being dragged down a questionable path by a charismatic leader. It does, however, give the community an anarchistic character which is sometimes a hindrance.
Despite our hatred of them, we still have a very human need for leaders, if only as someone to blame things on. Thus figures such as RMS, Linus, and ESR rise to prominence and become our communitiy's equivalent of politicians. Unlike politicians, however, their prominence is not totally voluntary. We have so far avoided nosing into their personal lives for the most part. Their every public move, however, is subject to analysis, criticism, opposition, and flameage. The immediacy of the internet gives this a much more personal nature than is common in American politics. One is reminded, however, of William Safire's column a couple years back calling Hillary Clinton a "pathological liar," to which Bill essentially responed (in public, mind you) that if he were not the president, he'd give Safire a punch in the face.
In the case of Perens and ESR, the politician comparison is even more apt, because they have deliberately made themselves very publicly visible, in order to create change, in the community and outside it. And, like many American politicians, their personal rancor is as much for the public's benefit as for each other. There is a reason that this battle is not being waged in private e-mails, but being posted on websites and in mailing lists. Ad hominem arguments make great propaganda, and are surprisingly persuasive, even to us self-describedly smart people. I know my opinions on the APSL jumped back and fourth on a daily basis based solely on whose response I had read most recently. And, as with the Safire incident, what started as an essentially political matter has become very personal.
Reconciliation between ESR and Perens is probably impossible at this point. This particular issue will die out pretty quickly, although the flames will spring up pretty readily whenever the next liscencing debate comes up. The real lesson that I am taking from this, and that I hope others will take from this, is to question leadership. Oddly enough, this anti-authoritarian community has proved surprisingly ready to embrace authority and the assumptions that underlie it. Everyone equates ESR with Open Source, when the two are, of course, separate. ESR's faults are not Open Source's. Likewise, Free Software is more than RMS and Perens. More fundamentally, we are very willing to see these issues in black-and-white terms. Gnome xor KDE. Free Software xor Open Source. This sort of either-or thinking plays right into the hands of politicians. When there are only 2 ways of thinking, you have to not only agree with an idea, but you have to agree with a person, and that gives them power.
So, the real solution to this conflict is not (as I was inclined to suggest) that ESR and Perens shut up. Rather, we need to learn to take them with a grain of salt, and realise why these battles don't have to matter to us. Leadership is useful, and often worthwhile, but not when it limits our options, constrains our thinking, or distracts us from real issues.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" -Salvor Hardin
In the long run, the OSS movement isn't about leaders or corporate acceptance or the public perception of this community. This movement is about software, dammit, nothing else. Sure, Linux and OSS are currently in the spotlight, but that's a new situation the community is being forced to deal with. Soon enough the spotlight will swing and focus elsewhere and Linux/OSS will continue to trundle along in relative obscurity again.
This community doesn't have "leaders"...this community has "significant contributors". No one voted ESR or Perens or Raymond in as spokespersons, they just ended up there because of what they contributed (and continue to contribute) to this movement and to this community. Eventually other people will become the spokespeople for this movement...again, not because they're elected in any fashion, but because of what they do...because of what they contribute.
I'll now hoist up our very own Commanding Taco as prime example. He's a guy with a website fer gawd's sake. No one voted him in as maintainer of this website, he just built the damned thing. And what happened? Boom. The website got popular. Linux/OSS ended up in the spotlight. Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda ends up with a full page spread in Wired, ends up on the Advisory Board for linux.com, ends up being interviewed by the media...blah blah blah. No one voted for this guy for anything. Rob just actively contributed to the movement, and in contributing has ended up as a highly visible potential-spokesperson.
My point? Who the hell cares if Bruce and Eric fight like dogs?Who cares if they hate one another's guts and like airing their dirty laundry in public? I don't care. This doesn't change the amount of respect I have for them, because my respect is earned by their real-life contributions.
Personally I don't give two hoots if there is a wide-spread corporate acceptance and adoption of Linux/OSS. I don't. Even if the current surge in popularity continues unabated, it's going to be *years* before I am able to use Linux full-time in the workplace. Corporate adoption isn't just about getting word out about the quality of the software. There's a whole lot of other issues that have to be overcome: changing platforms is high-risk; retraining staff who have been trained on Windows for years is an expensive proposition; hiring staff to create and maintain the networks is also expensive; there are huge gargantuan piles of data lying around in proprietary format; there are tons of widely used proprietary applications which do not have Open Source equivalents yet.
Etc. As long as there are people who are willing to continue developing OS software, it doesn't matter at all if the corporate world adopts OSS. Not yet...not for years yet. This isn't going to be a Sudden Sweeping Change that zooms around the world leaving millions of smiling happy OSS users around the world. Right now the spotlight is on this community. The spotlight will move on long before Total Global Domination is a reality.
So...who cares if these guys fight? Let 'em have at it. It's entertaining the hell out of the press, and it's not like none of us have seen a flamewar before.
In the long run this movement will be a success not because of our spokespeople, but because of the quality of the code, documentation, and technical support. Not to mention the full-on support of open standards and a foundational philosophy that is non-exclusionary and puts powerful computing tools into the hands of the common people. Viva la revolucion, and all that.
- dria
It boggles my mind that RMS is the guy here with
the best grasp on reality. At least he has good reason for his holy war and continues to fight it without resulting to petty threats orname calling...
If they could all just be like Linus and stay out of the holy wars. *sigh*
-Rich
Heh. Does a Ph.D. in history count as missing out on a decent liberal arts education?
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Just because you breed faster doesn't mean you leave more copies of your genes around. People in Mozambique, for example, have higher birth rates than in the United States, and yet the population of Mozambique declines (AIDS + civil war).
And you are not taking a long-term view. Having a BMW is not a survival trait. However, having a working society is. Ineffective societies die out, successful societies let their members multiply. Just don't think in terms of years, think in terms of centuries.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Seems to me that Eric and Bruce's public disagreements have degenerated into personal attacks. Lets not the rest of us fall into the same trap.
Lets also remember that there are real issues that face us at the root of their disagreement and that we as a community have to decide how to address them, although perhaps in a more civil manner?
...is a private matter and is NOBODY'S BUSINESS but mine and his.
Maybe if you took the time to read my brilliant essay "The Catheter is Bizarre" you might begin to recognize my DIVINE RIGHT to speak for programmers everywhere -- even the poor slobs using Visual Basic!
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
I've read better essays on the men's room wall! For some examples of REAL writing, I refer you to my MANY previous slashdot posts:
"What does RMS stand for?" -- a brilliant ASCII tome (EBCDIC version also available) in which I point out that Free Software vs. Free Beer is irrelevant, because bars have been offering Free Peanuts for years. Indeed, if the FSF wants to be noticed, they should push for Free Nachos.
"Where's a Moderator When You Need One?" -- in which I explain, in detail, the Rob Malda-led conspiracy to systematically REDUCE the scores of my posts through biased and unfair moderation.
"Jon Katz Sux" -- pretty much speaks for itself.
Of course, unlike you, I would NEVER stoop to threats of violins to make my point. I'll let my writing speak for me and the entire slashdot community, whether they like it or not.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Bruce Perens had a long history of blowups and angry exchanges prior to this. In fact, he once claimed on slashdot that he was through with free software forever. This history of instability did not appear to bother Eric Raymond until such time as Bruce split with him. Then all of sudden Raymond suddenly started noticing that Bruce has a tendency to go off half cocked.
My understanding of Eric Raymond is also that he has had numerous spats like this with people in the past. There's this, the trademark dispute with SPI, the ncurses affair, and more I hear.
Of course I'm in no position to complain. I've been in quite a few flame fests in my lifetime. People say things in the heat of anger that they regret later. Unfortunately, in the modern electronic world it is there for anyone to see forever. Most of us don't have our every electronic word or posting examined like these two guys do.
How about the two of them just let it drop. And make a committment to try to not take things personally in the future, even if they think it should be.
It only seems to be a breach of "netiquette" if someone decides later they are embarrassed by an email message they sent. At least that is only time I ever hear people complain. There are a number of people (Richard Stallman is one, for example), who have never bought into your definition of netiquette. I fundamentally don't believe someone can send me an email full of threats and flames and legitimately expect me to keep that private.
Posted by Mike@ABC:
Geez...can't these guys take an anger management course or something? This isn't just a highly public flame war between two people -- it's something that effects everyone who's a part of the open source community.
The suits -- the guys who eventually make decisions about implementing software -- are going to read this. They're going to say "Good Lord, this whole Linux thing is supported by gun-toting yahoos." And then they'll go run Solaris. Or Windows NT.
What I don't think the community understands is that all of this stuff is public now. There's no such thing as a private flame war any more. My own mom can read any of this stuff. So can CIOs. For the good of the community, these two need to take their little feud into a private mailing list. If they want open source to prosper, these public flames will NOT help. With the rest of the world watching nowadays, y'all can't afford this BS.
Again, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
I'd never been threatened before and really did not know how to react - I think I took it more seriously because of the .signature, which was some Jefferson quote about the pistol being the best form of exercise. That was the next sentence after "Watch your step". Of course Eric is smart enough that he won't ever do anything like this again.
Eric communicated, through Dan Quinlan who was attempting to mediate, that he did not mean violence. At that point, I publicly dropped the issue. Dan did use the words "character defamation" in relaying Eric's message. Of course, it's hard to drop an issue when it's already in a mailing list. Both Eric and I made it clear to Leander at Wired that this was a non-issue. Other journalists, who I guess had more to write about, did drop the story when requested, including ZDNet and all of the various webzines. It felt really ironic having Eric and Brucie had a fight as the top headline at Wired while bombs were falling on Yugoslavia.
I spent part of yesterday patching Electric Fence, there's a new beta on my site. My DSL has been running full out for days serving downloads of the Digital U.S. Street Map, which I hope will seed the development of many free mapping programs. All of this is much more important than any little fight with Eric.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Please note that our two flamethrower-toting friends are free people and clearly have the right to say anything they want in any public forum. I hope nobody is really disputing this.
The real question thus becomes, was this public flamage a wise thing to do? Before your average Slashdot AC starts jumping up and down and shouting "Stupid! Stupid! Losers! Assholes!" I would like to point out that both Raymond and Perens are highly intelligent and articulate people. I am quite sure that they can decide on the wisdom of their actions without the help of more flamage directed at them. I really don't see the point of tsk-tsking at them.
Having said that, I would like to point out that my carefree attitude towards this spat is mostly based on my belief in social Darwinian evolution: the losers will die out (and, yes, I know, they breed faster). I do NOT think that the corporate attitude towards Open Source is going to be influenced by private disagreements, even if vocal and highly visible.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.