Apple(TM) proper won't sell you the part, but most Apple service centers will. I get Apple parts from my Apple service center all the time. and of course there's nothing that says you have to replace apple parts with apple parts. even slot loading DVD-Rs and DVD/CD-RWs are available from places like MacResq and OWC.
i just don't think that things like the LCD and MLB are likely to go bad without what apple would call, "abuse." sure they can but it just isn't very likely.
apple care isn't going to cover wear and tear or environmental problems.
i've never met a latop that i couldn't bust open and replace a hard drive or an optical drive.
lets say your hard drive dies 18 months into the warranty, with apple care you just paid $350 to replace it. if you're hand with a screw driver and you can browse the web you can replace a 40 gb hard drive for $150. you just saved $200. 24 months in the warranty your dvd/cd-rw breaks. again, you browse the web, find the unit for $200, replace it and you've broken even. if both the hard drive and the optical drive crap out on you than you're very unlucky. this won't happen to most people.
so if you're unluckly or screw driver challenged get the apple care. otherwise, save your money.
you play the odds. what are the odds that a something w/o moving parts is gonna break in a computer. in my experience, fairly slim.
things that break are typically HDs and optical drives. if you subscribe to this theory than there is no way Apple Care is worth it.
if you think that stuff like LCDs and motherboard will go bad with use and time than Apple care is probably worth it.
out of the 5 Apple computers i've purchased, i've never bought apple care and never had a non-moving part go bad on me.
at work i had a mac's built in NIC go bad, but it was within the one year warranty. i also had a power supply go bad, that wasn't under warranty. it cost $150 to replace. personally i think that if a non-moving part doesn't go bad within a year, it's unlikey to go bad within three.
i'll echo the requests for quality. how about customer choice 160 kbps lame mp3 or 128 kbps AAC (m4a)?
other things that would be nice, the full liner notes. not just cover art, but maybe a pdf of the cover and contents. lyrics, photos bios etc. given that all of art is produced on a computer this doesn't seem too difficult.
most importantly, all the convience of the iTunes music store, but with a rating system and community feedback like amazon has.
if you could provide all of this for 79 cents a song or $8.00 an album there'd be no reason not to shop with you.
Perhaps everyone is tired of the arguments, but Luxology (one of the more impressive "real" Demos IMHO) has issued a response to all the controversy.
I applaud them for stepping forward. They do not comment on the other benchmarks or bake-offs, but they stand by their results. The short of it: when running their software, the dual G5 is faster. They also mention that 75% of their market is Windows based.
i can't imagine where you can finda a DUAL 3.06 GHZ Xeon with a superdrive for $3k.
while you can indeed get a very good deal for a lower end dual 2.4 Ghz Xeon, it's really not the same is it. PCs will ALWAYS be better deal on the low end. the value in this machine will only show at when comparing it to high end machines.
the machine you linked comes with a 52x cd-rom, and 8 MB of on-board video. not the same league of machine. if you added in these things it would cost quite a bit more. though i do like the hot-swap IDE drives. where did you see that it comes with both XP and 2000 licenses. at the bottom it says "operating system sold seperately."
besides, the tigerdirect machine is UGLY. as much as i hate Bondi Blue, i gotta say that purple is even worse.
i wouldn't say that apple is lying on this. all they're doing is using the SAME compiler.
i realized that it's not the compiler everyone is using in the windows world, but it is still valid for comparison. for their rater image benchmark (i.e. photoshop) they used the same version of photoshop on both platforms. indeed, corel photopaint may run the same actions on the PC much faster, but the point is that they were using the same benchmark.
apple could have, and no doubt will, re-do these benchmarks with a 64 bit highly optimized compiler. when they (or someone)releases those benchmarks some people will cry "foul" because the same compiler isn't available for the PC side. it's a no win situtation.
also, you can correct me if you wish, but it's my understanding that GCC is actually faster for somethings than Intel's compiler.
Apple is selling 700 Mhz iBook,128 MB RAM, 20 GB, CD-ROM for a mere $800.
I've never seen a Thai Linux distro, but I bet OS X is quite a bit nicer. Plus the iBook has a real graphics chipset on it.
You want the government to pick up part of the bill? You're in luck. The US government just passed a tax cut. For some (especially the very rich) that will easily make up for the $300 difference in price.
Once again America proves to be better than all other countries. If you say otherwise we'll bomb the fuck out of you. Or at the very least not eat your cuisine. No more Pad Thai for me! I'll only have Pad FREEDOM.
My 12" PowerBook is nearly perfect
on
12" PowerBook Wobble?
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
i just wanted to chime in and let people know that i love my 12" g4. i actually sold my 15" 1ghz powerbook on ebay because it was too noisy. i then picked up this little beauty and a samsung 17" lcd. couldn't be happier.
initially i was worried about the heat the palm rest was generating while it was recharging, but the 10.2.5 update took care of the excessive heat. and it now gets warm when plugged in and just slightly tepid while on battery. certainly tolerable.
i also had a problem with my airport card dropping reception. but i reseated the card and reset my basestation. one or the combo of both fixed my problems.
i keep looking for a wobble or warping or feet coming off or uneven track pads buttons or faulty displays or some other problems that i've read about. but nothing has shown up in two months of constant use.
i don't know if i'm the exception or that only people with bad exeriences post. the latter seems more likely. obviously people that are having problems are going to complain while those of us who are happy are just gonna keep using their machines.
the moral is, if you are considering a 12" powerbook but are discouraged by all the bad reports consider that some people (the majority?) are perfectly happy with their 12" g4s.
i wish the converstations here (or anywhere) would differentiate between archiving vs. back up. they're very different (at least for our purposes).
we back up nightly. just in case any one computer fails, we restore, presto... problem solved. any working files and the OS are saved. we're happy.
our archiving needs are tremendous and require constant management. at the end of every week we offload 70-80 gigabytes of information to tape. we then dupe the tapes for redudancy. these tapes are then stored forever (or at least the 10 years the company has been around). we probably have an average of 5-7 tapes fail per year. luckily we have never had a tape fail and also have the dupe of that tape fail. we gone through several itterations of DDS and will now probably settle on some form of AIT.
we looked at the feasibility of IDE hard drives. a 120 GB IDE drive can be had for $80 today. cheaper than a 100 GB AIT. but what is the shelf life of a hard drive? how do u connect it and have it be hot-swappable (firewire)? how do we span multiple hard drives?
an IDE RAID doesn't work for archiving. after all, you can't physically store an IDE RAID after you fill its capacity. swapping out the drive and storing just the drives themselves seems only slightly more feasible. even so, this doesn't address the issue of spanning, a RAID would just give more space. a SAN solution doesn't address archiving issues either.
what i want are IDE drives with lotsa shelf life (10 plus years) and an IDE auto-loader/duper that will automate the back up process the way a tape autoloader does. anyone sell such a thing?
As much as we English loving types had no use for real names, it was a viable way for Asian countries to use their own characters for DNS entries. It had a chance of being a standard. Granted, a skewed results go to the hightest bidders standard, but it was probably better than entering and IP everytime you wanted to visit a site.
Hmmm, that would certainly account for those people that coded in Objective C (Cocoa). But how many commercial apps are actually coded as such. I don't think Apple has the same multiplatform options for Carbon apps.
Either Apple would need to make this happen for Carbon apps or the developer would have to re-code. Which is more likely?
I certainly have, though that's hardly the point. I'm using "drag and drop" to illustrate the simplicity that would be needed for any company to port to an Intel/Apple solution.
Is there really such things as a drag and drop compiler/environment were you just take your code and have it instantly complile between different platforms?
Cuz that's what Apple would need. How else would they get software on their Intel port. Adobe would have to be able to take their source, drop it on the "Intel Compiler" and have their code be executable. Otherwise, how else does Adobe, or any commercial app maker, justify the exepense of porting their code to an even smaller user base of Mac users.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would be a huge task. Did the Be OS have a drag and drop source code for compiling between PC/Mac hardware?
I expected more from Cringely, but even he uses a car analogies for Macs/PCs.
Yes it is true that Porsche buyers will always WANT to buy Porshes. But Mac users (not zealots mind you) HAVE to buy Macs.
If I could get a Mac in a beige box that was as fast (faster?) than a purrty Apple case and it was $1000 cheaper you can sure as hell bet that I would.
How many people do you know with Apple towers have ugly, but functional, beige monitors attached to them? Nearly every Mac user I know breaks the aesthetic with an ugly monitor.
I'm a professional. I need to get work done. Getting it done econimically is always nice. Sure I like Apple, I like the design. But I LOVE my money.
OS X on Intel would definitely hurt Apple. No non-zealot would ever value the architecture and design of Moto/Apple over the price and performance Intel/Generic PC maker. All things else. (the OS) being equal.
okay, u know your robin hood history better than me. score one for you. sorry i've only seen the walt disney one where revolution through stealing worked. my bad.
it the rest really garbage though, or is it just too different for you to consider? please (i'm not even kidding, maybe i DO have seriously flawed logic and examples) respond with your thoughts.
y wouldn't it work? give me something concrete. i took a lot of time to post that garbage. you repsond with a quick history lessson.
when i re-read my post, it doesn't even sound like revolution so much as just a little healthy does of socialism in an industry that has taken capitalism WAY too far
200 K was just a figure. and you're right, COMPANIES don't work that way. but people can. the organic farming analogy is a valid one. organic farmers make more and are happier.
it could work for software too. i'm not talking about turning the economy on it's head, i'm talking about turing the software companies on their heads.
is it so wrong to think workers or hackers in this case deserve a great share of the profits? how many lines of code did bill gates right this year? how about steve jobs?
though i can't stand her music, annie defranco is another example of keeping businesses small and keeping profits up. by eleminating the recording company, she manages to sell her cds for more and earn more for herself and her staff.
still sound romantic? maybe, but it also sounds nice, don't it?
personally, i like the idea of digital piracy. i tend not to partake in it myself (emphasis on the word tend).
digital piracy has the potential to tear down an infrastructure that we see as RIGHT, even though it may not be.
elaboration:
music piracy is a really great thing. i hope it sinks the recording industry. the recording is EVIL. it steals artists rights and property and benefits very few, very successful artists. artists have very little to gain from the recording industry. for instance, even the
biggest artists, metallica for intance, don't make more than 50 cents per 15 dollar compact disc. so if they were to sell 10 million albums this would amount to 5 million dollars. not chump change, but FAR below
the amount of money Metallica makes every year. metallica makes all their money on tours and merchandising, something that they don't need record companies for.
imagine if all music were distributed over the internet for free, if the music were good enough, people would go pay to see the artists perform the music. much the same way people buy cds and go see the artist if they like the music. digital or physical, it makes
very little difference. except that w/o the recording industry the artist would be able to keep their publishing rights, not worry about
distribution and not get trapped into unfair contracts for money needed upfront to record albums. artist would get paid for performing (where most of their money comes from anyways) and record companies would go
away. sounds perfect to me.
software piracy has the potential to do much the same thing. it would be
a wonderful thing if every copy of Microsoft' windows were pirated. or if all commercial operating systems were pirated for that matter. in essence, this would lead to a free OS for all. it's been shown that a
quality OS can be made by open source communities with free labor. imagine if your operating system was free and had mass user acceptance.stealing from MS and other is actually a good thing. if ms went bankrupt
people would use a free os that would eventually (if it hasn't already) surpassed windows in quality.
stealing applications has nearly as much potential. obviously at some
point programmers need to get paid. but do you think that adobe or
microsoft pay progammers nearly enough? even if you make 200 thousand a
year hacking away in redmond, it's nothing compared to the money MS
makes off your labor. imagine if all applications development were
shareware based. developers could reap the fruits of their labors much
more directly. it's not too different than big corporate farming versus
small organic farming. small organic farmers actually earn MORE than by
being a part of some huge corporate farming collective that buys their
crops too cheaply. a small nimble software company that operated on a
shareware model, could compete effectively and make more money for the
individuals. because they were relying on a shareware model, they
wouldn't have to worry about distribution costs and their small size
would allow them to be price comptetive.
think how kewl it would be if there were 20 different small companies
that created word processors that all used a standardized (ISO standard
maybe).DOC file. or we have today's 100 mb word process full of bloat
that doesn't even handle it's own proprietary.DOC file correctly.
now i'm not advocating that digital piracy is always justified. nor am i
saying we should all go steal cars and computer. what i am saying is
that digital piracy has the potential to change software and music for
the better.
revolution through stealing? hey, it worked for robin hood ; )
Slashdot Mirror
build to order cars were fairly common. you'd go into the showroom, choose the options you wanted and then wait 2 months.
you could mix and match interiors fabrics with exterior paints. you could choose from different size engines, different size wheels, etc.
doesn't sound too revolutionary.
Apple(TM) proper won't sell you the part, but most Apple service centers will. I get Apple parts from my Apple service center all the time. and of course there's nothing that says you have to replace apple parts with apple parts. even slot loading DVD-Rs and DVD/CD-RWs are available from places like MacResq and OWC.
i just don't think that things like the LCD and MLB are likely to go bad without what apple would call, "abuse." sure they can but it just isn't very likely.
apple care isn't going to cover wear and tear or environmental problems.
i've never met a latop that i couldn't bust open and replace a hard drive or an optical drive.
lets say your hard drive dies 18 months into the warranty, with apple care you just paid $350 to replace it. if you're hand with a screw driver and you can browse the web you can replace a 40 gb hard drive for $150. you just saved $200. 24 months in the warranty your dvd/cd-rw breaks. again, you browse the web, find the unit for $200, replace it and you've broken even. if both the hard drive and the optical drive crap out on you than you're very unlucky. this won't happen to most people.
so if you're unluckly or screw driver challenged get the apple care. otherwise, save your money.
you play the odds. what are the odds that a something w/o moving parts is gonna break in a computer. in my experience, fairly slim.
things that break are typically HDs and optical drives. if you subscribe to this theory than there is no way Apple Care is worth it.
if you think that stuff like LCDs and motherboard will go bad with use and time than Apple care is probably worth it.
out of the 5 Apple computers i've purchased, i've never bought apple care and never had a non-moving part go bad on me.
at work i had a mac's built in NIC go bad, but it was within the one year warranty. i also had a power supply go bad, that wasn't under warranty. it cost $150 to replace. personally i think that if a non-moving part doesn't go bad within a year, it's unlikey to go bad within three.
i'll echo the requests for quality. how about customer choice 160 kbps lame mp3 or 128 kbps AAC (m4a)?
other things that would be nice, the full liner notes. not just cover art, but maybe a pdf of the cover and contents. lyrics, photos bios etc. given that all of art is produced on a computer this doesn't seem too difficult.
most importantly, all the convience of the iTunes music store, but with a rating system and community feedback like amazon has.
if you could provide all of this for 79 cents a song or $8.00 an album there'd be no reason not to shop with you.
good luck
Perhaps everyone is tired of the arguments, but Luxology (one of the more impressive "real" Demos IMHO) has issued a response to all the controversy.
I applaud them for stepping forward. They do not comment on the other benchmarks or bake-offs, but they stand by their results. The short of it: when running their software, the dual G5 is faster. They also mention that 75% of their market is Windows based.
okay, i shoulda specified.
i can't imagine where you can finda a DUAL 3.06 GHZ Xeon with a superdrive for $3k.
while you can indeed get a very good deal for a lower end dual 2.4 Ghz Xeon, it's really not the same is it. PCs will ALWAYS be better deal on the low end. the value in this machine will only show at when comparing it to high end machines.
the machine you linked comes with a 52x cd-rom, and 8 MB of on-board video. not the same league of machine. if you added in these things it would cost quite a bit more. though i do like the hot-swap IDE drives. where did you see that it comes with both XP and 2000 licenses. at the bottom it says "operating system sold seperately."
besides, the tigerdirect machine is UGLY. as much as i hate Bondi Blue, i gotta say that purple is even worse.
i wouldn't say that apple is lying on this. all they're doing is using the SAME compiler.
i realized that it's not the compiler everyone is using in the windows world, but it is still valid for comparison. for their rater image benchmark (i.e. photoshop) they used the same version of photoshop on both platforms. indeed, corel photopaint may run the same actions on the PC much faster, but the point is that they were using the same benchmark.
apple could have, and no doubt will, re-do these benchmarks with a 64 bit highly optimized compiler. when they (or someone)releases those benchmarks some people will cry "foul" because the same compiler isn't available for the PC side. it's a no win situtation.
also, you can correct me if you wish, but it's my understanding that GCC is actually faster for somethings than Intel's compiler.
just thought i'd point out that Apple is claiming fastest SPEC benchmarks.
normally they just brag about photoshop. but this time they're actually breaking out SPEC.
Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 is supposedly 3% faster in interger and 42% faster in FPU than a dual 3 Ghz Xeon. might be worth the premium that Apple charges.
though come to think of it, $3000 is pretty sweet. i can't imagine where you'd find a dual Xeon for $3000.
My comment is hardly a troll. At most it's an advertisement for Apple with a healthy dose of patriotism.
Apple is selling 700 Mhz iBook,128 MB RAM, 20 GB, CD-ROM for a mere $800.
I've never seen a Thai Linux distro, but I bet OS X is quite a bit nicer. Plus the iBook has a real graphics chipset on it.
You want the government to pick up part of the bill? You're in luck. The US government just passed a tax cut. For some (especially the very rich) that will easily make up for the $300 difference in price.
Once again America proves to be better than all other countries. If you say otherwise we'll bomb the fuck out of you. Or at the very least not eat your cuisine. No more Pad Thai for me! I'll only have Pad FREEDOM.
i just wanted to chime in and let people know that i love my 12" g4. i actually sold my 15" 1ghz powerbook on ebay because it was too noisy. i then picked up this little beauty and a samsung 17" lcd. couldn't be happier.
initially i was worried about the heat the palm rest was generating while it was recharging, but the 10.2.5 update took care of the excessive heat. and it now gets warm when plugged in and just slightly tepid while on battery. certainly tolerable.
i also had a problem with my airport card dropping reception. but i reseated the card and reset my basestation. one or the combo of both fixed my problems.
i keep looking for a wobble or warping or feet coming off or uneven track pads buttons or faulty displays or some other problems that i've read about. but nothing has shown up in two months of constant use.
i don't know if i'm the exception or that only people with bad exeriences post. the latter seems more likely. obviously people that are having problems are going to complain while those of us who are happy are just gonna keep using their machines.
the moral is, if you are considering a 12" powerbook but are discouraged by all the bad reports consider that some people (the majority?) are perfectly happy with their 12" g4s.
i wish the converstations here (or anywhere) would differentiate between archiving vs. back up. they're very different (at least for our purposes).
we back up nightly. just in case any one computer fails, we restore, presto... problem solved. any working files and the OS are saved. we're happy.
our archiving needs are tremendous and require constant management. at the end of every week we offload 70-80 gigabytes of information to tape. we then dupe the tapes for redudancy. these tapes are then stored forever (or at least the 10 years the company has been around). we probably have an average of 5-7 tapes fail per year. luckily we have never had a tape fail and also have the dupe of that tape fail. we gone through several itterations of DDS and will now probably settle on some form of AIT.
we looked at the feasibility of IDE hard drives. a 120 GB IDE drive can be had for $80 today. cheaper than a 100 GB AIT. but what is the shelf life of a hard drive? how do u connect it and have it be hot-swappable (firewire)? how do we span multiple hard drives?
an IDE RAID doesn't work for archiving. after all, you can't physically store an IDE RAID after you fill its capacity. swapping out the drive and storing just the drives themselves seems only slightly more feasible. even so, this doesn't address the issue of spanning, a RAID would just give more space. a SAN solution doesn't address archiving issues either.
what i want are IDE drives with lotsa shelf life (10 plus years) and an IDE auto-loader/duper that will automate the back up process the way a tape autoloader does. anyone sell such a thing?
As much as we English loving types had no use for real names, it was a viable way for Asian countries to use their own characters for DNS entries. It had a chance of being a standard. Granted, a skewed results go to the hightest bidders standard, but it was probably better than entering and IP everytime you wanted to visit a site.
Hmmm, that would certainly account for those people that coded in Objective C (Cocoa). But how many commercial apps are actually coded as such. I don't think Apple has the same multiplatform options for Carbon apps.
Either Apple would need to make this happen for Carbon apps or the developer would have to re-code. Which is more likely?
I certainly have, though that's hardly the point. I'm using "drag and drop" to illustrate the simplicity that would be needed for any company to port to an Intel/Apple solution.
Is there really such things as a drag and drop compiler/environment were you just take your code and have it instantly complile between different platforms?
Cuz that's what Apple would need. How else would they get software on their Intel port. Adobe would have to be able to take their source, drop it on the "Intel Compiler" and have their code be executable. Otherwise, how else does Adobe, or any commercial app maker, justify the exepense of porting their code to an even smaller user base of Mac users.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would be a huge task. Did the Be OS have a drag and drop source code for compiling between PC/Mac hardware?
Enlighten me.
I expected more from Cringely, but even he uses a car analogies for Macs/PCs.
Yes it is true that Porsche buyers will always WANT to buy Porshes. But Mac users (not zealots mind you) HAVE to buy Macs.
If I could get a Mac in a beige box that was as fast (faster?) than a purrty Apple case and it was $1000 cheaper you can sure as hell bet that I would.
How many people do you know with Apple towers have ugly, but functional, beige monitors attached to them? Nearly every Mac user I know breaks the aesthetic with an ugly monitor.
I'm a professional. I need to get work done. Getting it done econimically is always nice. Sure I like Apple, I like the design. But I LOVE my money.
OS X on Intel would definitely hurt Apple. No non-zealot would ever value the architecture and design of Moto/Apple over the price and performance Intel/Generic PC maker. All things else. (the OS) being equal.
y wouldn't it work? give me something concrete. i took a lot of time to post that garbage. you repsond with a quick history lessson.
when i re-read my post, it doesn't even sound like revolution so much as just a little healthy does of socialism in an industry that has taken capitalism WAY too far
it could work for software too. i'm not talking about turning the economy on it's head, i'm talking about turing the software companies on their heads.
is it so wrong to think workers or hackers in this case deserve a great share of the profits? how many lines of code did bill gates right this year? how about steve jobs?
though i can't stand her music, annie defranco is another example of keeping businesses small and keeping profits up. by eleminating the recording company, she manages to sell her cds for more and earn more for herself and her staff.
still sound romantic? maybe, but it also sounds nice, don't it?
digital piracy has the potential to tear down an infrastructure that we see as RIGHT, even though it may not be.
elaboration:
music piracy is a really great thing. i hope it sinks the recording industry. the recording is EVIL. it steals artists rights and property and benefits very few, very successful artists. artists have very little to gain from the recording industry. for instance, even the biggest artists, metallica for intance, don't make more than 50 cents per 15 dollar compact disc. so if they were to sell 10 million albums this would amount to 5 million dollars. not chump change, but FAR below the amount of money Metallica makes every year. metallica makes all their money on tours and merchandising, something that they don't need record companies for.
imagine if all music were distributed over the internet for free, if the music were good enough, people would go pay to see the artists perform the music. much the same way people buy cds and go see the artist if they like the music. digital or physical, it makes very little difference. except that w/o the recording industry the artist would be able to keep their publishing rights, not worry about distribution and not get trapped into unfair contracts for money needed upfront to record albums. artist would get paid for performing (where most of their money comes from anyways) and record companies would go away. sounds perfect to me.
software piracy has the potential to do much the same thing. it would be a wonderful thing if every copy of Microsoft' windows were pirated. or if all commercial operating systems were pirated for that matter. in essence, this would lead to a free OS for all. it's been shown that a quality OS can be made by open source communities with free labor. imagine if your operating system was free and had mass user acceptance.stealing from MS and other is actually a good thing. if ms went bankrupt people would use a free os that would eventually (if it hasn't already) surpassed windows in quality.
stealing applications has nearly as much potential. obviously at some point programmers need to get paid. but do you think that adobe or microsoft pay progammers nearly enough? even if you make 200 thousand a year hacking away in redmond, it's nothing compared to the money MS makes off your labor. imagine if all applications development were shareware based. developers could reap the fruits of their labors much more directly. it's not too different than big corporate farming versus small organic farming. small organic farmers actually earn MORE than by being a part of some huge corporate farming collective that buys their crops too cheaply. a small nimble software company that operated on a shareware model, could compete effectively and make more money for the individuals. because they were relying on a shareware model, they wouldn't have to worry about distribution costs and their small size would allow them to be price comptetive.
think how kewl it would be if there were 20 different small companies that created word processors that all used a standardized (ISO standard maybe) .DOC file. or we have today's 100 mb word process full of bloat
that doesn't even handle it's own proprietary .DOC file correctly.
now i'm not advocating that digital piracy is always justified. nor am i saying we should all go steal cars and computer. what i am saying is that digital piracy has the potential to change software and music for the better.
revolution through stealing? hey, it worked for robin hood ; )