But a lot of religious thought requires you to hold "... their judgment is infallible and their authority unquestionable,..." otherwise it is regulated to a nice self help book of questionable ideas. Without the books, the religious thought just becomes hand waving and speculation. Religion needs a foundation.
I personally have been lobbying for a nuclear power station to be setup, effectively in my back yard. I'd be glad for any reasonable infrastructure to be setup right by my house.
How does one solve the problem of central characters, who should be taken literally most of the time, referring to the metaphorical parts as though they were supposed to be literal? Particularly when those characters, being divinely inspired or divine, should know better?
Okay, I'll track that down. I was to understand the problem wasn't lack of particular organs (brain obviously exempt), but the lack of ability to think. This always brought the problems of at what stage of thinking is considered to be 'human'. I'm starting to get myself tangled and confused again so I'm opting out due to ignorance and wanting to learn more.
I'm anti abortionist, yet even I know that abortionists actually reason that it is before the brain develops that should be allowed. If you want to be treated fairly, treat people fairly. Most people would recognise that without a brain the fetus is not viable. The point is still somewhat artificial, but to build a straw man of the time of birth is not fair.
I'm sure you'll recognise the ancestry of the fair rule.
I've recited that very verse for numerous reason over the years. Around 10 years ago I don't believe you could found a person with less doubt; I was going to cop a beating unless I convinced him that I believed in God. Any variance or dilly dallying, basic physiological manifestations when lying or doubtful it was on.
I could go into a full testimonial about being born again, spiritual experiences and amazing coincidences, but what is the point? The Bible clearly states I am a fool. Besides, you have special insight into me that you know I never truly believed. Just like my friends never had faith that God would heal them. Because the Bible says that if they truly believed, they would be healed.
I guess I deserve this as I have had this very similar conversation from the other side of the fence, Ephesians clearly says that what you sow you reap. I did think that when I had confessed and repented a few years ago of the condemnation of others, that God had forgiven me of all unrighteousness. It would have been too much to be restored to faith in gentleness and meekness. Oh there is a verse for that too. Gal. 6:1, "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted." and Phil. 4:5, "Let your gentleness be evident to all [why gentleness, rather than something else?], the Lord is near."
Thank you for showing me that loving compassion from Jesus, manifested in Christians. You could have replied and said "Aw, it can be hard at times; I'll pray for you" or "Even the disciples doubted and Jesus was standing in front of them" or even just "Email me at mycutename at specialconnection dot com and lets discuss this." I would have kept reminding myself of the experiences I had when I was born again, its uniqueness to all other experiences I've had, the events that I can still only as miracles, and the one thing that is unique to Christianity, salvation by grace through faith.
Thank you for demonstrating that the first response of Christians is to condemn in some form, even the nice ones.
Problem is (I say this as a Christian, by practice, fundamentalist, pentecostal) that there are parts that clearly spell out that there aren't exceptions to the rules. Christians will often recite to each other where Jesus says that not one jot or tittle will be done away with, specifically applying it to a Old Testament law that they like. For instance, few pentecostal Christians follow Paul's admonition to have women silent in the church (specifically the congregation but is hard not to also apply it to the broader definition for church), and the ones that do are obviously mentally unstable. Christianity, the new and old Testaments, and particularly the Old Testament mostly don't give any leeway for any modification to its code. Anyone that says otherwise is just trying to fence sit with reality and what they want to believe. Christians whether traditional or fundamentalist only acknowledge the theology they like.
I personally am on the verge of dropping it all in for no other reason than Christians reasoning (that is, no one else within the church has been able to satisfy my own reasoning.) Add to that my own personal search into the construction of Christianity, my slowly growing understanding of historical theology and the construction of the very text that is held up as The Word Of God, and I may just become an atheist.
Heh, with that statement and self acknowledgement, I just become one.
knowing about the placebo effect lowers its effectiveness
I phrased that badly. I was thinking more if you understood the placebo effect (not hard), would the idea that it might be a placebo lower the chance that any potential for its effectiveness regardless of its true state?
Now I've written it out it seems obvious it would. *facepalm* Bad day for me.
You're right; I haven't done the tests. Space and money have stopped me; ignoring that I'm only jitter-ed by it. This would shake science to its core after all.
I've searched around for genuine studies of it, but have always been convinced the tests weren't effective. Most studies do what you have done, and simply show how estimation and guesswork without controls can get a skewed perspective; no 'magic'* required.
*On a side note, if there were ever actual evidence of dowsing being effective I'd be looking for an effect of physics not magic. Sort of like the old wives tales of eating moldy bread and penicillin. I think the experience gives me more of a reason to try come up with better methods of testing 'x' idea/experience than just discarding it as being statistically guess work or placebo effect.
Now you have me thinking whether knowing about the placebo effect lowers its effectiveness. Gah, thanks for giving me more work.:)
I had an incidence where I was working with some plumbers who were dowsing for water pipes. I was laughing and mocking them, even after one said for me to give it a go. I did, mocking at the same time myself and them for witchcraft, ignorance, etc...
Well, I haven't become a firm believer but I can't think for the life of me how I found those pipes consistently. I still am trying to work out what could possibly be going on that I had a much higher success rate after 'dowsing' than before. I'll probably never figure it out, maybe it just placebo/memory tricks. I for one am not quite so quick to dismiss it, until I can work out a better explanation.
You want to do something concrete to save energy ? Turn down your aircon, stop driving that 5 litre SUV, invest in a set of solar panels for your house and get off the grid etc.
What do you do after you've don all that? And don't forget to count the energy used to make the solar panels. Feel guilty about that for at least 35 years. And how much energy does it take to generate one human baby? That has to count. And have you shaded your planet from the sun recently? It is throwing thousands of kilowatts at the earth every second! Get outside and cover as much as possible to keep it cool.
Flamebait? One reason of the reasons I left WinXP was because I, a legitimate buyer of WinXP, had been accused of pirating a copy. WGA, snuck in a sly manner, only made it more difficult for me. I was only just learning do computer nerd things and consequently re-installed XP numerously with hardware upgrades (ram & hdd) interspersed. The contacts at the other end didn't like what they heard.
eh, I've seen places selling netbooks up to 12" for up AUD$1500. Agreed they don't meet the nerds version but netbooks is now a marketing term for no internal CD drive.
I got my Apple ibook cheap second hand for the same price as I'd pay for a second hand Windows laptop. I can run at least as much open software as I can on a Windows system. Yes, for me it runs nicer than the Windows laptop I had. Your dig at me for owning an Apple machine was wasted.:)
Well yes, I suppose that is one way of looking at my statement, and what happened. Any lollies that would have come to us got absconded for a higher purpose.
I think you'll find that it isn't pirate-ers demanding they be allowed to update but the paying customers, for the benefit of paying customers everywhere. The pirate-ers are reluctant to update... in case they get caught.
Huh? I've downloaded patches and ServicePack MS style from Apple at no cost. I just haven't been able to upgrade to the next version without paying. I really don't see Microsoft or Apple doing any different to the other in this area. They both cost for upgrades, no cost for updates.
Or are you confused by the version numbers? Sigh, no I'm not going to bother. Yep I guess I've just been trolled.
And before you start laughing at me re expensive hardware, it was a second hand laptop bought cheap. No WGA, no other updating hassles.
Man, I've been trying to work this out for months! Are you sure? I've been so sure that zfs, btrfs are all just copying (okay there probably is some extending of) Plan9's fossil+ Venti arenas. Damn, I'd better try get Plan9 running again.
Where did the gp even indicate that he believed in an afterlife let alone God?
Being bound by ethics is the dilemma of the civilised free man. Without civility, man has and can only extended the animal characteristics into new dimensions. This is meaningless too. With civility man is able to dream of improving both one's own progeny and the progeny of others. *
While obsessing with "better future" is meaningless to the individual, in evolutionary terms it makes sense to spread the wealth so that both progeny and future progeny potential partners have a better chance of survival. After all, keeping the genetic pool wide is a good thing in terms of survival of the species; look at the number of species on the endangered list that are mostly because they don't have a large genetic pool to draw from.
* Original 'research' (come on, let me have some dreams of grandeur!)
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But a lot of religious thought requires you to hold "... their judgment is infallible and their authority unquestionable, ..." otherwise it is regulated to a nice self help book of questionable ideas. Without the books, the religious thought just becomes hand waving and speculation. Religion needs a foundation.
I personally have been lobbying for a nuclear power station to be setup, effectively in my back yard. I'd be glad for any reasonable infrastructure to be setup right by my house.
How does one solve the problem of central characters, who should be taken literally most of the time, referring to the metaphorical parts as though they were supposed to be literal? Particularly when those characters, being divinely inspired or divine, should know better?
Okay, I'll track that down. I was to understand the problem wasn't lack of particular organs (brain obviously exempt), but the lack of ability to think. This always brought the problems of at what stage of thinking is considered to be 'human'. I'm starting to get myself tangled and confused again so I'm opting out due to ignorance and wanting to learn more.
I thought they used fusion until the discovery of dilithium crystals 80 years later?
I'm anti abortionist, yet even I know that abortionists actually reason that it is before the brain develops that should be allowed. If you want to be treated fairly, treat people fairly. Most people would recognise that without a brain the fetus is not viable. The point is still somewhat artificial, but to build a straw man of the time of birth is not fair.
I'm sure you'll recognise the ancestry of the fair rule.
Demonstrate is different to hypothesize hypotheticals
Well, thanks.
I've recited that very verse for numerous reason over the years. Around 10 years ago I don't believe you could found a person with less doubt; I was going to cop a beating unless I convinced him that I believed in God. Any variance or dilly dallying, basic physiological manifestations when lying or doubtful it was on.
I could go into a full testimonial about being born again, spiritual experiences and amazing coincidences, but what is the point? The Bible clearly states I am a fool. Besides, you have special insight into me that you know I never truly believed. Just like my friends never had faith that God would heal them. Because the Bible says that if they truly believed, they would be healed.
I guess I deserve this as I have had this very similar conversation from the other side of the fence, Ephesians clearly says that what you sow you reap. I did think that when I had confessed and repented a few years ago of the condemnation of others, that God had forgiven me of all unrighteousness. It would have been too much to be restored to faith in gentleness and meekness. Oh there is a verse for that too. Gal. 6:1, "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted." and Phil. 4:5, "Let your gentleness be evident to all [why gentleness, rather than something else?], the Lord is near."
Thank you for showing me that loving compassion from Jesus, manifested in Christians. You could have replied and said "Aw, it can be hard at times; I'll pray for you" or "Even the disciples doubted and Jesus was standing in front of them" or even just "Email me at mycutename at specialconnection dot com and lets discuss this." I would have kept reminding myself of the experiences I had when I was born again, its uniqueness to all other experiences I've had, the events that I can still only as miracles, and the one thing that is unique to Christianity, salvation by grace through faith.
Thank you for demonstrating that the first response of Christians is to condemn in some form, even the nice ones.
Problem is (I say this as a Christian, by practice, fundamentalist, pentecostal) that there are parts that clearly spell out that there aren't exceptions to the rules. Christians will often recite to each other where Jesus says that not one jot or tittle will be done away with, specifically applying it to a Old Testament law that they like. For instance, few pentecostal Christians follow Paul's admonition to have women silent in the church (specifically the congregation but is hard not to also apply it to the broader definition for church), and the ones that do are obviously mentally unstable. Christianity, the new and old Testaments, and particularly the Old Testament mostly don't give any leeway for any modification to its code. Anyone that says otherwise is just trying to fence sit with reality and what they want to believe. Christians whether traditional or fundamentalist only acknowledge the theology they like.
I personally am on the verge of dropping it all in for no other reason than Christians reasoning (that is, no one else within the church has been able to satisfy my own reasoning.) Add to that my own personal search into the construction of Christianity, my slowly growing understanding of historical theology and the construction of the very text that is held up as The Word Of God, and I may just become an atheist.
Heh, with that statement and self acknowledgement, I just become one.
gah, that was supposed to be wouldn't shake
I phrased that badly. I was thinking more if you understood the placebo effect (not hard), would the idea that it might be a placebo lower the chance that any potential for its effectiveness regardless of its true state?
Now I've written it out it seems obvious it would. *facepalm* Bad day for me.
You're right; I haven't done the tests. Space and money have stopped me; ignoring that I'm only jitter-ed by it. This would shake science to its core after all.
I've searched around for genuine studies of it, but have always been convinced the tests weren't effective. Most studies do what you have done, and simply show how estimation and guesswork without controls can get a skewed perspective; no 'magic'* required.
*On a side note, if there were ever actual evidence of dowsing being effective I'd be looking for an effect of physics not magic. Sort of like the old wives tales of eating moldy bread and penicillin. I think the experience gives me more of a reason to try come up with better methods of testing 'x' idea/experience than just discarding it as being statistically guess work or placebo effect.
Now you have me thinking whether knowing about the placebo effect lowers its effectiveness. Gah, thanks for giving me more work. :)
I had an incidence where I was working with some plumbers who were dowsing for water pipes. I was laughing and mocking them, even after one said for me to give it a go. I did, mocking at the same time myself and them for witchcraft, ignorance, etc...
Well, I haven't become a firm believer but I can't think for the life of me how I found those pipes consistently. I still am trying to work out what could possibly be going on that I had a much higher success rate after 'dowsing' than before. I'll probably never figure it out, maybe it just placebo/memory tricks. I for one am not quite so quick to dismiss it, until I can work out a better explanation.
Well yes, the higher purpose was tongue in cheek.
What do you do after you've don all that? And don't forget to count the energy used to make the solar panels. Feel guilty about that for at least 35 years. And how much energy does it take to generate one human baby? That has to count. And have you shaded your planet from the sun recently? It is throwing thousands of kilowatts at the earth every second! Get outside and cover as much as possible to keep it cool.
Put the big safe in an expensive car, and the little safe in an old Holden. (Or use some American classic if you prefer.)
Flamebait? One reason of the reasons I left WinXP was because I, a legitimate buyer of WinXP, had been accused of pirating a copy. WGA, snuck in a sly manner, only made it more difficult for me. I was only just learning do computer nerd things and consequently re-installed XP numerously with hardware upgrades (ram & hdd) interspersed. The contacts at the other end didn't like what they heard.
http://xkcd.com/488/ applies in the WGA case just as much as music.
eh, I've seen places selling netbooks up to 12" for up AUD$1500. Agreed they don't meet the nerds version but netbooks is now a marketing term for no internal CD drive.
http://apcmag.com/dell_preps_12_inch_netbook.htm
I can't find any for $1500, and can't be arsed to search any longer (.21 seconds)
I got my Apple ibook cheap second hand for the same price as I'd pay for a second hand Windows laptop. I can run at least as much open software as I can on a Windows system. Yes, for me it runs nicer than the Windows laptop I had. Your dig at me for owning an Apple machine was wasted. :)
Well yes, I suppose that is one way of looking at my statement, and what happened. Any lollies that would have come to us got absconded for a higher purpose.
I think you'll find that it isn't pirate-ers demanding they be allowed to update but the paying customers, for the benefit of paying customers everywhere. The pirate-ers are reluctant to update... in case they get caught.
The old 12"* probably makes it one of the larger 'netbooks' being sold today.
* sheesh, if they updated the harddrive to register the 'modern' method of calculating size, can't they drop the insanity that is imperial? Please!
Huh? I've downloaded patches and ServicePack MS style from Apple at no cost. I just haven't been able to upgrade to the next version without paying. I really don't see Microsoft or Apple doing any different to the other in this area. They both cost for upgrades, no cost for updates.
Or are you confused by the version numbers? Sigh, no I'm not going to bother. Yep I guess I've just been trolled.
And before you start laughing at me re expensive hardware, it was a second hand laptop bought cheap. No WGA, no other updating hassles.
Man, I've been trying to work this out for months! Are you sure? I've been so sure that zfs, btrfs are all just copying (okay there probably is some extending of) Plan9's fossil+ Venti arenas. Damn, I'd better try get Plan9 running again.
Where did the gp even indicate that he believed in an afterlife let alone God?
Being bound by ethics is the dilemma of the civilised free man. Without civility, man has and can only extended the animal characteristics into new dimensions. This is meaningless too. With civility man is able to dream of improving both one's own progeny and the progeny of others. *
While obsessing with "better future" is meaningless to the individual, in evolutionary terms it makes sense to spread the wealth so that both progeny and future progeny potential partners have a better chance of survival. After all, keeping the genetic pool wide is a good thing in terms of survival of the species; look at the number of species on the endangered list that are mostly because they don't have a large genetic pool to draw from.
* Original 'research' (come on, let me have some dreams of grandeur!)
In my family, for non essentials (lollies) the more you begged the less you got. We start with none.