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There is nothing wrong with being enthusiast over a product and IMO there's also nothing wrong with sharing your experiences and opinion on how great the product actually is.

The problem is simply that certain people lack self reflection and a healthy dose of common sense.

When it comes to music / audio production my favorite tool is the combination of together with Max for Live. The latter being a visual programming environment ('Max / MSP / Jitter') which has been "embedded" for Ableton Live.

And I guess writing all of this up here also marks me some kind of fanboy. Quite frankly I am; I'm very excited about the products and the stuff I can do with it.

BUT... I'll also be the first to acknowledge that this software can't do it all (well, it comes very close though) and that other people might be much better of using other environments (Reason/Record, ProTools or maybe stuff like Cubase or maybe even Reaper).

THAT is IMO where things go wrong. There is nothing scientific about it; some people are simply dorks and lack any common sense. What they say goes and other people are simply "wrong" because. We all should know by example since most of our countries are ruled by such people.

There is nothing wrong with being enthusiast over a product and IMO there's also nothing wrong with sharing your experiences and opinion on how great the product actually is.

The problem is simply that certain people lack self reflection and a healthy dose of common sense.

When it comes to music / audio production my favorite tool is the combination of together with Max for Live. The latter being a visual programming environment ('Max / MSP / Jitter') which has been "embedded" for Ableton Live.

And I guess writing all of this up here also marks me some kind of fanboy. Quite frankly I am; I'm very excited about the products and the stuff I can do with it.

BUT... I'll also be the first to acknowledge that this software can't do it all (well, it comes very close though) and that other people might be much better of using other environments (Reason/Record, ProTools or maybe stuff like Cubase or maybe even Reaper).

THAT is IMO where things go wrong. There is nothing scientific about it; some people are simply dorks and lack any common sense. What they say goes and other people are simply "wrong" because. We all should know by example since most of our countries are ruled by such people.

Seriously, can't people who write software choose meaningful, easy-to-remember names for their programs?

How the hell is 'rosegarden' supposed to make me think about editing audio files? And that 'SpiderOak' name is a joke, right?

Y'mean like Acid, or Abelton or Pinacle or Pro Tools?

Tell me that someone new to the field would have any clue what type of software those names represent?

Well this guy uses loops in live performances, but he just doesn't stand around waiting... :)

http://downloads.ableton.com/artists/kid_beyond/kid_beyond.mov
http://downloads.ableton.com/artists/kid_beyond/kid_beyond.wmv

There's a version on youtube if that's a less objectionable format ;).

Well this guy uses loops in live performances, but he just doesn't stand around waiting... :)

http://downloads.ableton.com/artists/kid_beyond/kid_beyond.mov
http://downloads.ableton.com/artists/kid_beyond/kid_beyond.wmv

There's a version on youtube if that's a less objectionable format ;).

It's wouldn't OR couldn't. For example, I would love to have a copy of Photshop CS 3. It is $650. I could afford that but would never spend that much money on it (i.e. I wouldn't ever buy it at that price). So, if I pirate it they have not lost a sale to me.

Another scenario: I would very much like to have the full version of Ableton Live 7 ($500). I can afford this comfortably after I save up for 6 months or so and then will probably buy it. Now... if I pirate it before then and buy it after I save up, they lose nothing.

You see, intellectual "property" is really nothing like physical property. Physical property can be stolen, and then someone always loses something. With IP, making a copy does not always result in a loss of sale. Very, very different.

P.S. Another example: I watched all four seasons of Peep Show on YouTube recently, and will definitely be buying the DVD. In this case, the BBC (or whoever) is actually gaining a sale because I pirated their show: I most likely never would have seen it if it wasn't on YouTube.

If the music industry collapsed tomorrow, barring the initial shockwave, what harm would it do?

I mean, people would continue to create and perform music, and people would continue to listen to it. "Music" does not need a financial incentive to exist--and let me elaborate on that.

First, it is no longer prohibitively expensive for individuals to produce studio-quality music. Awesome, awesome software can be had for mere hundreds of dollars. People spend thousands on hobbies (hello video games)--what's five hundred bucks to a passionate musician?

Second, with P2P, YouTube, etc., distribution--massive distribution, to a mainstream audience--is free.

Now, if some dude wants to quit his day job and make a living off his musical ability, well that's what touring's for. Performing live is real work, that provides a real service, that people can be expected to pay for. Also, there is money to be made producing soundtracks for movies and games, or jingles for commercials, or the Windows XP startup sound.

"Bands" creating "albums" (or 3-minute, 32-bar "singles"), and retiring off the royalties, is not a natural process. It worked for a while, and congrats to those who caught the wave, but music, and the enjoyment thereof, is a natural process, and it will continue with or without pinstripe suits.

Comments?

http://www.ableton.com/

I was really impress by its UI.

Are not in the same ballpark as far as polish, consistency, printed manuals and a general sense of finishedness goes ... But they are well on par (if not superior) in terms of functions. They are all miles ahead in terms of expandability compared to the existing big name applications.

I would disagree with that. None of those programs would compete with huge behemoth DAWs like Cubase or Logic or Pro Tools in terms of features. Do any of them come with Beat Detective (Pro Tools)? What about Space Designer, or a Hammond B3 emulation or Ultrabeat (Logic)?

Ok, let me give an example of Logic Pro, because that's what I use and most familiar with. Do any of those programs listed match up in terms of functions?
specs
effects
instruments
sound library

And for me, expandability is the ability to use the widest range of plugins that would affect my mixing and recording work. Linux does not yet have that for me.

one minor area where open source audio apps absolutely kills the big name commercial apps is the online community - the users, experienced musos, and the developers are all one and the same people.

The online community for the big name programs is much much larger, simply because more people use those programs. I get plenty of help with whatever question I have at those forums. I post at bigbluelounge.com (which is even listed on the Apple website), but I also lurk at the DUC and logicprohelp.com. Look at some of the forum topics, some have well over 30,000 posts.

Big Blue Lounge
Logic Pro help
the DUC - Digidesign Pro Tools forum
the LUG (Logic Users Group)
Cubase forum
Sonar forum
Ableton Live forum
just to name a few.

some of the audio tools are actually good enough and stable enough right now for live performance in front of real paying audiences.

I agree, but that's still very limited usage compared to what a big-name DAW is capable of doing.

open source audio is not better or worse than commercial audio apps - but it is different enough in a worthwhile way.

I'm sorry to say this, but right now it is definitely worse and it's going to be like that until Linux DAWs are used professionally at the highest levels of the music industry. One indicator of the lack of popularity of Linux DAWs is the coverage in music production magazines, such as Future Music, Computer Music, Sound on Sound, MIX, EQ and Virtual Instruments, although this is changing. CM has a dedicated Linux section, albeit only two pages worth. This is at the moment though, so who knows what will happen in the future. But even in 2007, many mixing and mastering engineers still refuse to use Pro Tools or anything computer based. Most of the others who do use DAWs don't solely mix in the box and use a buttload of outboard hardware.

AFAIK, unfortunately, native plugin support is virtually zero on Linux. Yes, there is the Linux VST standard, but that still requires companies to recompile their plugins for that, as a Linux VST plugin does not use the same binary as a Windows VST. You can run Windows VSTs under Linux, but that involves a lot of playing around with WINE and JACK and other things which most musicians don't have the time, and more importantly, the technical ability to set up. I mean, it's hard enough

• set up an adhoc wireless network with AirPort
• Used Audio & Midi Settings (part of OS X) to get the Macs to talk to MIDI each other
• Had his copy of Live on the Mac start & stop recording on my copy of Live.

Also, the Live rarely crashes on the Mac, which was pretty frequent on my XP SP2 machine. Even when you unplug the cheap M-audio Firewire Solo, while recording, Live keeps running - plug the firewire box back in and you're back up. On my Win machine, you had to at least stop & restart Live (and often log out or reboot).
Plus, when a program does crash on the Mac, I've always gotten my data back. It's like they have auto-save built in to the OS.

My friend and I both have extensive sysadmin & programming experience on Win & Linux/FreeBSD.

The Mac is just easier to create with. Guy

Here, here! The guy that made the whistler app also frequents one of the same forums as I, and he went around there trying to drum up support for his idea a few weeks ago. I ended up voting for the flower-desktop thinger instead, but even then, I felt that none of these ideas were certainly worthy of the press and attention that the site has gathered thus far.

And honestly, how many more glorified recipe book apps does the world need?

hello

i am wondering if anyone has run the program "ableton live" ( http://www.ableton.com/ ) under the WINE API especially with tools like crossover.

thanks very much as a large contingent of the music production community would like to know if this is feasible.

Albeton is just as powerfull as Traktor and much more user friendly. All the recent djs ive met hav been using it on their laptops. Traktor feels way more outdated.

That's the software you wan't, I think. Head along to the website and download the free trial, play around with it. It comes with tutorials and a helpful forum. It's like DJing with an infinite number of decks, and the ability to add your own loops, instruments and entire original works of music. It's the best, I totally love it :D

As an aside, I'm surprised so many people on here are referring you to turntables or even Final Scratch. This being a techie site I was sure people would be talking about Ableton and Traktor far more than they have been. Ableton is the app that keeps me on Windows (I know it's out for Mac, but I can't afford to switch just yet...)

Unless you're mixing tracks together, there's nothing you can't do with some software that the average music-spewing DJ can do, to wit, beat matching and crossfading. Might as well do it on the computer, and have the old technology for backup.

With Ableton Live I can do one hell of a lot more with some software than the average music-spewing DJ can do. It's one hell of a nice piece of gear, and lots of big-name professional DJs are using it instead of vinyl these days.

Many of the musicians I know nowdays use computers in some shape or form for their music, not to mention if you are an electronic musician.

With the multitude of applications and varying keyboard references for them, this unit will be a welcome addition to ones arsenal as opposed to paying $200 for a Pro Tools keyboard ...

Applications such as Ableton Live http://www.ableton.com/ which allow you to perform electronic music in a live manner and allow for the user to create their own shortcuts have created a surge in the production of control surfaces which are all configured in varying ways for the performer. With the Optimus keyboard, you could have your own Live keyboard mapping without purchasing a massive controller which is limited to your music performances and have the icons on the keyboard tailored to your momentary usage needs.

I guess in hindsight, I was referring mainly to electronic musicians, producers and engineers as opposed to using this keyboard as a bow for your cello.

-Sj53

Interviewer: Why is every Windows user not on Linux?

Grant: Some don't care, others don't know, others are afraid to try.

if a company now for what i thinketh than, it can predict something out of its jargon. some people would like to contribute for it's cause, other are happy enough to reject it. get a grip and spell some http://www.ableton.com/ shit, AMD majority would live ever after. Realize and dont asciiez.

Here's your dual 2.5 Ghz clean and elegant architecture beaten by not 1 but 8! x86 junk:

http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=forum

I should have posted this in the first place, I knew a proof was going to be requested, so look at the clean and elegant chart.

People working on audio and DAW know since the days of the Pentium 3 that the x86 is simply the most powerful processing plataform available. Apple owners have been tricked with a lot of marketing bullshit for years, and still some people believe the G5 is the best processor for FPU. Unbelievable, but true.

My ultimate plan is to fill a few rather large external hard drives with all my decompressed digital audio for DJing purposes. At that point, I will probably require jHymn for the few things I have purchased that would work well in such an environment.

Just sit back and watch the movies ...

Basically, the Keyboard People are fucked.

Strike that. They are FUCKED.

Why? As one poster noted above: Software.

Software synthesis already outstrips most anything you can do in a keyboard, and at a much lower cost.

Exhibit A:

REASON

I remember back i nthe ancient 1980s, when a cheezy ass sampler (by todays standards) cost $2000+. In Reason, which costs about $400, you can fill an entire virtual rack with samplers far in excess of what availed then. you want 11 samplers stacked? If you had $25,000 - SURE. In Reason, when you're done, you simply open up a new blank Rack, and fill it with more/other goodies from the drop down menu. Back then, you'd have to sell all those samplers...

It comes with drum machines, samplers, processors, mixers, synthesizers of several different stripes, and on and on.

Second Exhibit: ABLETON LIVE

This, in combination with Reason, offers truly terrifying amounts of musical development and creativity. Recently, Live was upgraded to include MIDI, and a basic drum machine, so now it is even more deadly as a combo with Reason. Live is a Loop based compositional system, but with its new MIDI capabilities, it is now a much more powerful beast. It costs about $350, IIRC.

Exhibit Three: Max/MSP

This, in combination with Live and Reason, makes ANYTHING coming out of Korg pretty much superfluous. With Live and Reason, you have composition systems and tonnes of "Gear". With Max/MSP you make your own gear, and it can be just as weird as you want it to be. Max/MSP isn't a synth, it's a software development environment that resembles an evil cross between Visual Basic and tinkertoys. It's available on Mac and (finally) Windows, and it totally fuckin' rocks. If you wondered how freeks like Autechre makes all that jiggety noise, look no further than:
Max/MSP.

so, lets run some totals:

My guess is the Oasys will likely come in around at a $2500 price point.

I often shop at Musicians Friend so my prices are from there as of today, Jan 20th. They aren't the best, or the worst. It's just a data point.

Reason: on sale: $199
Ableton Live: $399
Max/MSP with Jitter (video libraries): $799
Edirol PCRA-30 keyboard with Audio In: $299

And a computer I found at PC MALL - an IBM Thinkpad:

Intel P4, 2.8GHz processor, 256MB RAM, 40GB Hard Drive, CD-RW/DVD Combo drive,15" XGA Display, XP-Pro, etc.

Which has PLENTY of power for audio. and it's on sale for $1,198.

So, throw in another hundred bucks for a kbd stand and what not and the total is around:

$2900

Which is probably a bit more than the OASYS will sell for. Since Max/MSP is for Advanced User GEEKS, and Jitter is even geekier, cut the $799 out and you have an entire electronic music studio that KICKS ASS for about $2200.

...for a system that will totally thrash the OASYS up and down the street. Cheerfully.

Now: will your system CRASH? Yes. Will the OASYS? Probably not. If you're worried about that, then get a Powerbook or a Linux Book or whatever-the-fuck-book that flips your crank. They don't Blue Screen as much as Windoze box, but there are other issues involved. All in all, unless you're planning to spend a lot of time on stage, you're better off with the compter based system.

In a few years you will have run through most of what the OASYS does. In a few years... I *shudder* to think what Reason and Live will be like...

Basically Hardware Synth manufactueres are doomed. The only ones who will survive are the ones making the uber-geek analogue gear, and they will basically be little more than boutique operations for purists.

RS

Computers have made huge contributions to the art world. How can he think that we're falling short in creativity?

I work in the music field and almost all the innovation in the last 10 years has come from computers (embedded at first, PCs more recently). With Reason, you can turn out a decent tune in minutes. Live has introduced a whole new way to write and perform music. Those are my favorite examples but there are plenty more.

The film and art worlds have been equally influenced by computer technology.

I didn't post above, but I currently use both XP and 2000 daily. Make your own decisions but I also use OS X daily and it's far and away the most pleasant working environment I've encountered to date. That doesn't mean it's perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, but that's not the point now, is it.

As for "OS 9," um, who's talking about OS 9?

If you want Unix, install Linux... FreeBSD... SuSE... Debian... Lycoris... Lindows... There are choices in the Windows world.

Well, by the time I've finished clicking through the (Continue) buttons in an OS X install I've managed to install both the entire GUI environment and the entire Unix OS. I can also install other Unix systems on Mac hardware, but frankly I've got everything I need right here.

I don't need to install anything else except Logic Pro 6, Ableton Live, MetaSynth, ArtMatic Pro, MetaTrack, Voyager, VTrack, Absynth, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, OmniDiskSweeper, Studiometry, FileMakerPro, Adobe Creative Suite, LaunchBar, MySQL, Perl 5.8.3, Fink, Plone, Keynote, BBEdit, FastTrack Schedule Pro, Sonasphere, Toast 6, ZBrush, and a few more but I'll get to those tomorrow.

I run all these (plus my email, internet, contacts management, calendaring, etc) in the same operating environment; not an emulation shell, not after dual-booting, but in the very same operating system and simultaneously.

To top it all off OS X comes with a full set of developer tools, documentation and optimization utilities, plus Cocoa+Obj-C is a match made in heaven.

There's no need to pay Apple for a decent Unix experience.

Well, I believe there is. I enjoy the ability to support quality whether it's a film, a restaurant, a music venue, a book, clothing, my neighborhood, an artist, etc. every single day.

The hardware is just a hunk of material until you've discovered/designed an interface with which to use it. Solely on a base consumer level, I'm very happy to pay Apple for what is, in daily practice, a superior computer operating system. From the level of both a technology consultant and a media creator, the solution is very simple.

OS X is a very impressive "Holy Grail" for all my current activities. Strap me in because I'm ready to get to work.

I realize this is a bit offtopic but does anyone know how I can pitch shift mp3s in realtime? Is there something comparable for Macs?

It appears that it's Linux elitist because generally users with clue use Linux on their home machines.

I code for Linux at work. At home I have SuSe but my primary machine is Windows XP.

Why?

Because as a hobby I play music, and there is a plethera of excellent music software for the Windows platform. From recording (cubase, protools) to creation (live, reason) there is simply no comparison in linux, outside of academic electronic music.

Your elderly 'elitism' is misplaced, and wildly out of touch.

what's really neat is the interface... being able to move sounds around in a 3d space and manipulate the samples/loops with a completely uncluttered interface. This is the main problem with vst/softsynths, being able to use them in real time w/o a midi controller. The ideas is to get as close as you physically can to the music be made and computers.Audiopad does this thru least one computer to do it's job and radio tagging of the objects being moved around the table. The reason something like this won't go commercial for a long time is b/c there are no real new ideas as far as the actual sound manipulation is concerned. See ableton live for example or jeskola buzz.

You might like Ableton Live's interface. Clean, not gimmicks, perfectly understandable.

(sorry for the link - Ableton.com is frame-based, unfortuately)