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And kill hundreds of thousands of people in one go.
Read GP's link, the DOW section provides a perfect example of how much worse corps are than you think.

Quoted directly from Union Carbide's statement, "The Bhopal plant was owned and operated by Union Carbide India, Limited (UCIL), an Indian company in which Union Carbide Corporation held just over half the stock. The other stockholders included Indian financial institutions and thousands of private investors in India."

No mention of government ownership, and a clear statement that UCC owned over half the stock. The site makes no mention of government mismanagement, instead claiming intentional sabotage. If UCC is willing to make a claim that patently ridiculous, don't you think they would have mentioned other factors mitigating their culpability, such as government mismanagement?

Recent documents, obtained through discovery in the course of a lawsuit against Union Carbide for environmental contamination before a New York Federal District Court revealed that Carbide had exported "untested, unproven technology" to the Indian plant. That is partly why the US sister plant did not fail. Also, unlike the US plant, no disaster plans had been prepared for the Bhopal plant. Reports issued months before the incident by scientists within the Union Carbide corporation warned of the possibility of an accident almost identical to that which occurred in Bhopal . The reports were ignored outright and never made it to senior staff .

Due to falling sales, staff had been laid off and safety checks became less and less frequent. Slip-bind plates that prevent water from pipes being cleaned leaking into the MIC tanks via faulty valves were not installed. Their installation had not been included on the cleaning checklist. At the time of the event, the MIC tank refrigeration unit was disabled to save money, and some of its coolant was being used elsewhere. A simple press of a button in the control room would have activated it to at least use the remaining coolant, but this was overlooked by staff.

The gas scrubber was placed on standby, and therefore did not attempt to clean escaping gases with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda), which may have brought the concentration down to a safe level. The water curtain that may have reduced the concentration of the gas was only set to ~13 m and did not reach the gas; it was not designed to contain a leak of such magnitude. Though the audible external alarm was activated to warn the residents of Bhopal, it was quickly silenced to avoid causing panic among the residents. Thus, many continued to sleep, unaware of the unfolding drama, and those that had woken assumed any problem had been sorted. The flare tower used to burn off gases before they are allowed to escape into the air was inoperational pending repairs.

The families of the people who died in Bhopal each received about $2,200.

This is all a matter of public record, easy to research online. The BBC has a very good Bhopal resource center for anyone who wishes to learn more about this horrible example of corporate malfeasance. Without proper regulation, corporations behave in completely sociopathic ways.

Do you enjoy lying through your teeth about horrible disasters in order to prop up your failed and murderous ideology? Do you enjoy playing apologist for sociopaths?

I like the idea but I wouldn't start packing your space suit just yet. The problem I see is that companies, nowadays, won't pay to relocate you 100 miles, let alone 240,000 miles. They'll probably just do it in some third-world country where life is cheap. If there's an explosion the insurance companies will pay off the families and they'll write-off the whole endeavor (example: bhopal, India).

If you want rational, effective government, elect engineers rather than lawyers to Congress!

Yeah, extreme accidents like the 56 deaths from Chernobyl totally outweigh non-nuclear events such as the Bhopal chemical spill which killed a mere 3,800 people. Heck, it outweighs the average US death rate from coal mining of 45 a year.

In order to have a chernobyl style event in a modern, properly designed reactor*, more than 12 major systems have to simultaneously fail. Heck, 3MI, which was built before Chernobyl, was a better design.

*Chernobyl was more flawed than the Galaxy class's warp core ;)

The U.S. Attorney apparently does not think that it is "worthwhile" case and will not extradite him. See: http://www.bhopal.com/opinion.htm

I guess it's a different story when the shoe is on the other foot, then the US just kidnaps the suspect (from another country), exports them for torture and then puts them in prison for years and denies them the right to a fair trial etc.

It doesn't matter if it is Sony or Union Carbide, if it's a company it's OK in the USA.

If it's the government, you're stuck with it.

I guess you don't vote, do you? If your democracy works, you're not stuck with anything.

If Verizon was your carrier and they were doing it wrong, you could stop supporting them.

Not if they have a monopoly. Well, you can, but it's easier to vote for your gov't to do the same thing. Verizon is supposed to represent its shareholders. Gov't officials are supposed to represent you.

Also, the government should not do it because the government has a tendency to do things wrong.

I don't consider private enterprise to be any better. A lot of them are every bit as crooked as any politician. I find it to be very appropriate for citezens to use its gov't as a weapon against corporate bums as any other kind of bums. It gives us a way of keeping them honest, and gives the corps some honest competition. If we don't use our money to control them, then there's nothing wrong with using our vote. Either way, the choice is ours to make. We have a right to use our gov't any way we wish. If your gov't is doing things wrong, then change your gov't. Most of the world's democracies give you that option. Use it or lose it.

More of a libertarian, really, which increases my credibility.

Oh, right. By the fact that the Libertarian plank is "government is corrupt and evil, and corporations are good and benign, therefore we need to deregulate all corps and then we can sue them if they go bad"? Sure, that will stop corps from taking shortcuts to make a profit. Oh, and if the company gets caught, they won't use their economic/legal power to reorganize into a sue-proof company, because only government is evil, right?

• Three Timelines

• Bhopal Timeline From Greenpeace, ends with 2003 actions.

• Union Carbide Actions Short timeline of the immediate aftermath.

• Bhopal: Incident Review Union Carbide Dow Chemical site.

My Bhopal site has over 200 links if you want more info. Link is in the sig...

UCC did not reveal the name of the saboteur so that legal action could be initiated.

Quoting from http://www.bhopal.com/faq.htm

If sabotage is the suspected cause, why was this person not brought to justice?
The Indian authorities are well aware of the identity of the employee and the nature of the evidence against him.

I once attended a presentation made by someone closely involved in the inquiry. As I recall, the sabateur died in the "accident". When you have people clamoring for justice and the accused is deceased, it's hard to have closure.

He was apparently chairman/CEO at the time. This timeline is fairly informative, though it comes off as containing more than a bit of rationalization. It's interesting that UC contributed the proceeds from its sale of the Indian subsidiary to a fund for a hospital in Bhopal. That seems to me to be at least a tacit admission of continued responsibility. The changes in ownership structures make legal responsibility an "interesting" question, but Dow would do well to show some compassion, rather than just saying "not our fault, not our responsibility".

I seem to recall that it was Union Carbide not Dow that was responsible for the incident. Unless one is a subsidiary of the other.

This is not a story when technology failed..

This is a story of corruption, of not having any fail safe mechanisms or adequate safety measures, of negligence, of politicians willingly selling their souls and of those who they represent and of a system which failed to protect its own.

A thousand fingers could be pointed and in this horrible disaster, anywhere you point, you can find guilty who are still sheltered by the law, by the money they have willingly spent for their own defense and none for the people who suffered.

Union Carbide / Warren Anderson and Dow Chemical - Till now, they have chosen not to accept any form of responsibility and instead suggest sabotage. Union Carbide had spent a paltry sum before they agreed to pay 470 million of which hardly one third has been paid to its victims for the lack of any judicial oversight and sadly, corruption at the heart of the system. Even the 470 million that hopefully will be disbursed one day, hardly 2000 dollars will go to the families of those who died and 500$ to those who lost everything but their lives. Hardly a sum for the cost of a human life...

Union Carbide's response cleverly attempts to distance itself from the tragedy by calling the Bhopal plant owned by an indian firm. Clever, but it also serves to belittle the scope of this disaster and the lives that were snuffed out.

Would this be the same outcome if this had happened elsewhere, or in the developed world? And wouldnt a proper clean up in order or long completed if this were anywhere else.

Warren Anderson never saw the inside of a prison and still lives quite contently in Florida or NY and the US judicial system has done its part by denying the extradition requests by India. The Indian system on the other hand has comfortably chosen to neglect the cries for justice and has happily moved on..

Rediff.com has a sombre look at the tragedy, its victims, those who were forgotten, and those who still suffer.

One more reason not to trust corporations..

Also no additional compensation is planned and Dow has not apologized or owned up to this tragedy as the last part of the slashdot post. It is a hoax and was unknowingly perpetrated by a BBC interview. Read the AP article first (it drips accountability which is the last thing Dow or any corporation would do)and the proof its a hoax

Kind of one-sided article. Anyway, before we all go off on tirades against Union Carbide, why don't you get their side of the story at http://www.bhopal.com/. Essentially, Union Carbide claims the Indian government's report was hastily done and its conclusion that Union Carbide is liable is not supported by the evidence. UC tried to conduct their own investigation, but was locked out of their own facility for more then a year and denied access to witnesses by the Indian government. Union Carbide finally was able to release their own report, and concluded it was sabotoge by a disgruntled employee that caused the leak. The "fugitive" president went over to India soon after the accident to personally meet with the Indians. The Indian government arrested him, then let him leave.

Bottom line, get both sides, then make up your own mind.

Question for you: how does the number killed in Bhopal compare with the number killed in 9/11 ?

The leak was the result of sabotage.

There have been many industrial accidents that have killed thousands of people. There was an incident in India where a chemical leak killed 3,800people. In California a Dam burst killing an estimated 450 people. A naval disaster involving a ship full of explosives killed over 2,000 people. The Great Smog of 1952 killed over 4,000 people. Over 1,500 people died on the Titanic.

Chernobyl caused 31 deaths not including cancer. Because of the nature of cancer is hard to estimate the number of people who died from cancer caused by the Chernobyl disaster. My quick google search showed reports predicting between 20,000 and 100,000 deaths due to cancer. Which placed the eventual overall death toll much higher than any of the other disasters listed, however it should be noted that tobacco results in hundreds of thousands of deaths a year in the U.S. alone and has no benefit to society, yet it is widespread. I think that looking at the overall risks people take in daily life the increased danger from using nuclear power is not substantial, and it would have many positive impacts for society.

A smaller scale experiment can give insights to a larger problem. Thus, before the Wright brothers flew, they made (essentially) toy airplanes.

We already know that the earth's ecology more-or-less works (leaving aside some human intervention), but we don't have much understanding of how or why it works, or what might lead to our current niche in the ecology abruptly reducing in distribution and scope (aside from certain obvious threats). Small scale experiments in space allow us to get a better understanding of the principles, and possibly try some purturbation analyses.

Yes, in theory, this can be done on Earth as well. But there are other synergistic benefits to doing it in space (EG, getting free soup)... and just because it can be done on Earth, doesn't mean it will be done. How much biosphere research is done from NASA? How much of that would go away without the need to occaisionally keep some %^&%* lucky bastards alive up there every now and then?

(Disclaimer: I work with someone who was one of those %^&%* lucky bastards.)

Then the corporations (who are barely held in check by said govt that you've nuetered) will suddenly adhere to ethical standards, avoid polluting the environment, and cease exploiting workers. Everyone will be free and happy! Weeee!!!

Pass the crak pipe, bub. No sense in you getting all the hallucinations.

The same Libertarian Party that believes that govt is evil and corporations would never choose profits over the public welfare?

The chemical plant at Bhopal did not explode. The disaster was caused by a leak from a storage tank. See this overview for more details.

• Apple buys out out SCO (they only have a market cap of about 75 million (surely less by later today ;-)
• then they donate or otherwise nullifies ALL their patents (anti-patents as discussed several years ago here?) to the FSF, or BSD group, or whatever.

You must not
have looked very hard.

The bhopal disater is a well documented, widley known example of a horrible environmental disater.
--

Please everyone, condemn the right party.

** Dow bought Union Carbide 2 years ago. **

Dow is 100% liable for Union Carbide obligations, that comes with the purchase, but did not "kill" anybody at Bhopal in 1984 -- nearly 20 years ago.

I tend to agree with the above poster. I'm not usually one to defend a corporation, but it looks like Dow did make an awful lot of reparations. The actual truth of the matter, I'm sure, is obscured far beyond our ability to discern it, particularly by a few minutes of Googling. Cheers, Mike V.

Dow owns Union Carbide, responsible for killing thousands in Bhopal, India through multiple dangerous accidents in its chemical plants. Despite Dow putting a caring face on (the site is owned by Dow, though it isn't clear by looking at the main page), the aftermath continues.

A fairly good summary of the event can be found here, although it doesn't quite reveal the way Union Carbide pretty much tried to ignore the Indian legal system, ignoring repeated summons, allegedly trying to abandon responsibility for the accident altogether.

I'm more worried about utilities and industrial plants. Read up on the Bhopal incident.

I wrote:
" Microsoft might be driven solely by their obligation to their shareholders (as any company is, unfortunately), but they're not utterly without intelligence. "

ThanatosNL replied:
"Why is obligation to shareholders bad? It's a delicate economical system that works fine. If the Enron execs had felt the obligation to shareholders, instead of themselves, than the company would have continued to grow in a reasonable, time tested manner. "

Well, you've kinda answered the question with your first two sentences here. A company's responsibility to the shareholder does not have any boundaries except for law, and even that doesn't work. As I type this, WorldCom is reporting and additional 3.3B in fudged figures. Corporations look at ethics the same way that science looks at ethics, which is to say that they don't at all (this is not a dig vs. science in even the slightest way, I'm a big fan). Science is not concerned with whether a thing is good or bad but merely -- and solely -- whether it is true or false. Similarly, a company has no thought but profit. These range from the obvious (Enron) to the notorious (Union Carbide) to the devastating (Exxon).

That having been said, I see your point and I do agree with you more than this post might let on. I simply feel that MS did what it felt was in it's own best interest, and the concept of fair use and where the boundaries lie wasn't one of them.

If you think this is bad, check out what American comanies do outside America. In 1984 gas leaking from a tank in a Union Carbide factory in Bhopal, India IMMEDIATELY KILLED 8000 people, with the death toll subsequently rising to 16000 over the last 15 years. 40% of the women pregnant at the time of the disaster spontaneously aborted. Many children were born with severe permanent disabilities. Nearly 1/5 of the population of 500,000 are TODAY suffering from a myriad of exposure-related diseases. Chromosomal abberations have also been found in the exposed population, suggesting congenital malformations in the next generation.

Union Carbide settled with the Indian government for $470 million, 1/10 of what Exxon were fined for their pollution of the Alaskan coastline. The chairman of Union Carbide is indicted for culpable homicide, but has absconded and is known to be living in a beach house in Florida.

Source: Bhopal.org, NOT Union Carbide's own site, which is much slicker and comes top of a Google search on union+carbide+bhopal.