Slashdot Mirror

I love to drive. I really, absolutely love to drive. During my vacations I will fly somewhere, rent a car and spend 3 hours in the morning and 3 hurs in the afternoon driving. I really love it.

That said: I hate commuting in a car. I hate it. To me it is wasted time. I do not even own a car anymore. I still rent cars during the holidays. Flying in Europe is pretty cheap, even when I avoid the real cheap airlines.

I use Cambio as car sharing. Once a week I take a car for 2 hours to do my weekly shopping. And if I have time, I can take one for a day during the weekend.

As the company pays my public transport 100% (not uncommon in Belgium. I believe 50% is required by law) it is all money not spend. By selling my car I save easily 200-250EUR per month in the car devaluation, insurance, taxes, fuel and maintenance.

The commute now for me from door to door is just under 1 hour. With a car it is over an hour and up to 1.5 hours on more busy days. If there is no traffic (e.g. on a Sunday) it would be 20 minutes by car, door to door.

As an extra, If I decide to have a drink after work, I do not have to stick to water. I can drink one of the many great Belgian Beers, take the train home and be safe.

I really love driving. The smaller the car, the more I like it (as long as it isn't a "sportscar") I hate standing still.

The gain you get financially is the fact that you do not need to buy the car. If I buy a car for 10.000 and I drive it for 1 yesr and only 10KM per year, The cost of the car is 1.000 Per year per KM.
Now if I share the car with 9 other people who also just drive 10KM, the cost goes down to 100 p/KM

Obviously you would have an increase in maintenance and fuel. On top of that the company needs to make a profit. For that reason the company I am at sayd that it is interesting if you are below 10.000km per year. For many people this will not be a first car, but it might be interesting for a second or third car. http://www.cambio.be/cms/carsh...

The cost per mile numbers are inclusive of the cost of ownership.

Every vehicle has an expected useful lifespan. Lets say your hypothetical car is expected to last 100KM.
If you alone use it and drive 10KM/year the car will last 10 years, If you share it with 9 others who also drive 10KM.year the car will last 1 year.
Either way the cost/mile to own and operate the vehicle is the same and the cost per mile is the same.
If anything, a shared vehicle would typically be newer and have higher depreciation expenses.

The own VS rent decision is nothing new. I rent trucks when I need them, no point in keeping one in my driveway to use 4 times a year.
I'm just questioning their numbers which seem way off, like a $.25/mile shared vehicle cost in 2030.

The gain you get financially is the fact that you do not need to buy the car. If I buy a car for 10.000 and I drive it for 1 yesr and only 10KM per year, The cost of the car is 1.000 Per year per KM.
Now if I share the car with 9 other people who also just drive 10KM, the cost goes down to 100 p/KM

Obviously you would have an increase in maintenance and fuel. On top of that the company needs to make a profit. For that reason the company I am at sayd that it is interesting if you are below 10.000km per year. For many people this will not be a first car, but it might be interesting for a second or third car. http://www.cambio.be/cms/carsh...

As a European where the public transport is availabl to go to and from work fatsre than I could drive and that trip is paid 100% by the company, I do have car sharing.

They advertise that if your drive less than 15.000 KM per year, car sharing is cheaper. However you do need to have a car nearby available and it take some planning.

Most people will not be willing to walk 5 minutes and plan it in advance. And if you trive 14.550 KM per year, the gain is so small that it is not worth it.

So what it can be is a great alternative to a second car for many people. e.g. at leats one person goes to work with public transport and the other might as well. Just sometimes you will need a second car because reasons. Why have a car that is standing there costing money all the time.

Having a self driving car that comes to you would lower the treshhold of the 5 minute walk and make it even possible for those who would have to walk more, It would increase the availaility as well.

As extra information: I mainly use it to do shopping one per week. This months monthly bill was 75EUR and that inclused insurance, fuel, miles and the rent. That was abit on the high side as I normaly pay around 30 EUR per month. I also have paid 150EUR a month when I did a trip.

I save on average 250 EUR per month comparing of when I had a car.

And all this is in Europe where not having a car is not a real issue. I know many peope who do not have one. I also know people who have one, yet do not need it.

Before I sold my car, I tried it for two months to be absolutely sure that it was the right choce. http://www.cambio.be/ if you live in Belgium and want to get more info.

A car sharing company in Belgium claims that 1 car replaces 14 cars: http://www.cambio.be/cms/carsh...
Take that as you like. Many people will use car sharing instead of a second car. As a car sharer myself I can tell you that you will drive less, because you need to plan it upfront (a reason why many people do not want it)

So where are your numbers?

$85 to $115 per day for Zipcar? Here is what I pay at Cambio.be

I get my public transport paid by my employee. I walk if I can where I live as parking is a nightmare anyway. The car I take is mostly for doing shopping once a week and for further trips about once a month. Saves me around 200EUR per month compared to owning a car.

I had a car and sold it. I now have Cambio.be. I live in a city and work in another city. I have not cut down in the places I go. I just save a shitload of money (around 200EUR per month in my case). So I understand the imediate freedom a car can give you and I have that.
OK, it needs sometimes a little bit of planning, but that gives me 2.400EUR per year, no hasle of maintenance of the car and what not.

The thing is sharing cars will not reduce traffic. It will reduce the need for parkings.

It depends on your milage. I already do not awn a car and use car sharing http://www.cambio.be/ They say that if you drive less than 15.000KM (+-10.000 miles) it would become financially interesting. Obviously the more people, the cheaper it will get.
I do not need a car, because I use public transport to and from work paid for by my employer.
Disadvantages
1) It is not 'your car', so no bragging about your car
2) You need to plan ahead and pick up your car.
3) You need to be close to a pick up point.

Advantages
1) Cheaper (if you run less than 15.000KM)
2) No worry about maintenance
3) Take the car you need. Small to large is available.

With self driving cars, the disadvantage 3 will become much less closer. That means more people will be able to use it and that will bring down everything. It this moment I would say you need to drive less than 10.000, because above that, even if cheaper, the advantage of having your car in front of your house or apartment is greater than the money you make. (Obviously YMMV)

That said, it will reduce the amount of parked cars, not the amount of driving cars on the road, because people will still move around the same amount, but added to that you need to add the empty trips to pick up somebody.
Once all cars are automated, it will become more efficient.

Cars will also do more miles per year, but with lesser amount of cars. So in the beginning thgis means fewer cars, but they need to be replaces earlier due to more usage. This would mean that higher quality cars need to be made, because replace cheap cars every year will become very expensive.
I think it will be about 5-10 years to see this happen as many people still want to own a car and like to drive.

I do not own a car and exclusively use car sharing when I need a car. The reason is money. I now pay less per month than what I used to pay for insurance.
Been doing it now for about 2 years. And I must say that the cars are not dirty at all. The reason is acountability. They know who used the car when.

So if I would get into a car and there is a lot of trash in the car, I just notify the company and they will make a note of it. If I see it before I get in the car, I do not open the car and could inform them right away. If the same person does it again, another user will notify the company. When you abuse the cars, you will get banned, so no more car for you.

It is not that you just walk up to the car with a pre-paid card and drive around. You need to subscribe.
I must say, it just works and the cars are cleaner and newer that what I used to drive myself and better maintained for sure. I use http://www.cambio.be/cms/carsh...

The thing that comes close is carsharing. I live in a city and I use public transport (payed by the company) to get to work. So I used my car only really for shopping once a week.

I got to about 200EUR per month, not counting fuel. Now it is around 30EUR per month including fuel.

There are no camera's, but a pretty effective system as they know who has the car when. So if I see a dent in it or somebody puked, I tell that before I leave and the previous driver will be held responsible.

Till now I have not seen any abuse. To be fair, animals are not allowed in the cars. The company is Cambio

I do not think there will be one single solution.

The cleanliness I experience with car sharing is way better than what I did with my own car. It is also cheaper (depending on the miles you do). I doubt it will reduce traffic, as most cars are standing still somewhere. People who are on the road will not reduce.

I believe it could be a great solution between public transport and private owned cars. The disadvantage of public transport is the tme from door to door.

An example: I live 25KM from work. Due to trafix it would take 1.5 hours.
When I look at the train; it would take 25 minutes. However I need to get to the train and from the train to where I am. I also need to start working at a specific time. So those 25 minutes turn into 1 hour. And I am mucky, as I have a train every 15 minutes.

The reason is that there need to be many people on a train to make it work. Autonomous cars could take 4 people from the same place to the same place. This could reduce travel time by 25% or 15 minutes to the hour.

OTOH when I now want to go shopping, I need to add 20 minutes to get to the car and back. Autonomous cars would solve that as well.

So it could be a great in between. Over a whole I am extremely happy with the amout of money I save with http://cambio.be/ The cars are newer, cleaner and better maintained then my car was since I drove it out of the dealership.

It is a great addition to what you have, it does not need to be a replacement (perhaps for your second car it can be)

Most of the cars are parked somewhere. Congestion happens with those cars that are not parked. So even if we ASLL shared our cars, people would still have to go somewhere.

I do car sharing not for enviromental reasons, but for financial reasons. I take public transport and only used my car to go shopping once a week. Many people instead of having a second car could benefit from car sharing.

I do not believe there is an OR/OR solution. I think there might be an AND/AND solution.

And about the filth: the cars are cleaner then my cars ever where after day two. This is not a public bathroom and as you know who was in the car when, it is pretty easy to find out who made the mess and let them pay for cleanup.

I use http://cambio.be/ for those interested.

I go to work by train. When I go on holidays, I rent a car. When I need to do my weekly shopping, I use car sharing : Germany and Belgium

Last month I paid 20 EUR. This month will be around 25 and that will be the normal cost.

And this is without the public transport being free, just available.

With the car sharing, you do not have to give up on anything, yet still pay way less. It is said to be interesting if you run less than 10.000KM a year.

Calculation for me:
Insurance : 900EUR
Taxes :300 EUR
So that is already 100EUR per month for a car standing outside. Fuel needs to be payed in both and is even included in the 25EUR.
Next to that is the yearly maintanance That gets to around 50EUR per month and the devaluation of the car from 17.000 to 1.000 of 12 years. and that is another 160EUR.

So the car costs me say 250EUR per month. Not calculating fuel. So that is just standing there. I am sure that if I calculate more precise, I will be closer to 275 per month.

For that money I can easily pay the car sharing and on top of that public transport. Luckily the latter the company I work for does. Pretty standard in Belgium. At least 50% is paid, most (many?) companies pay the rest as well.

I do not need to drive a lot, so obviously YMMV, but certainly something to look into. I know several people who sold their second car and use Cambio as a second car.

The question will be if the self driving car of the future will be cheaper then owning a car.

At certain moments everybody will want to use a car. e.g. morning and evening traffic. This will still mean that in a total less cars would be needed. But there will be overhead costs.

Who will pay when the kid throws up in the car? Obviously that car will be out of commission. Then there is the profit a company will want to make. Also the fact that not everybody will be as carefull if they just rent it.

To lower the cost significantly, you would need to reduce the amount of cars. This means to reduce the amount of cars needed during rush hour. And that means public transport.

This means busses that will take to to trains and then to busses to get to your final destination.

This should be doable in highly populated areas (cities and suburbs) And then it becomes clear that the fact that these cars are driverless or not becomes irrelevant.

If public transport is a good option (e.g. around the same time in travel, at the same or lower cost and you can sit) people will prefer it.

Where I work now, the company pays my public transport. My travel time is shorter and I am able to sit during my commute. I would be an idiot to take my car. I am even thinking about selling it and renting one when I need one. Or using cambio.be

The key to all this is public transport. Without it, people will not have an incentive to drop their cars.