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Will Robot Cabs Unjam the Streets?

An anonymous reader writes: The Atlantic has a story with some video of a traffic simulator showing just how the roads can be jammed up by people looking for a place to park. (You can play with the simulator too.) This has been suspected for a long time by many traffic researchers and city planners, but the simulator shows just how quickly the roads jam up after just a few of the blocks fill up with parked cars. The good news is that autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride. They could change city life forever.

280 comments

  1. But not in Philadelphia by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Funny

    They may work elsewhere but they will just get beaten up in Philadelphia.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:But not in Philadelphia by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      They may work elsewhere but they will just get beaten up in Philadelphia.

      I'm not sure that I understand who exactly "they" are in your statement. Do you mean:

      1) The passengers will get beaten up by irate taxi drivers.

      2) The autonomous taxis will get beaten up by irate taxi drivers.

      3) The passengers will get beaten up by the irate autonomous taxis.

      My guess is 3).

      At any rate, it's not a real trip to Philly, unless someone gets beaten up.

      . . . and then a cheese steak and a soft pretzel afterwards . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:But not in Philadelphia by Hylandr · · Score: 3, Informative

      In case you missed it this was a hitchbot reference.

      4) The untended vehicles that show up get vandalized, stripped, and left a hulk of it's former glory.

      The added benefit for the thieves is the cars come when summoned.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    3. Re:But not in Philadelphia by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure that I understand who exactly "they" are in your statement.

      https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/d...

    4. Re:But not in Philadelphia by peragrin · · Score: 1

      True, but the cars will also contain camera's and gps trackers. how many will get caught before they remember to cover their face?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re:But not in Philadelphia by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      the cars will also contain camera's and gps trackers

      They had better contain maid robots too, because they're going to need to clean the puke and piss out of them every night. They had also better treat the robots to avoid certain neighborhoods (the way real drivers do), or the cabs are also going to come back to HQ with missing parts, covered in gang graffiti.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    6. Re:But not in Philadelphia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but the cars will also contain camera's

      So we have to travel under constant surveillance? No, thanks.

  2. It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Quite simply, it's not going to happen. While some people are comfortable sharing their stuff, the vast majority are rather possessive. They don't want to sit in someone else's filth. They don't want their car to drive off, pick up someone who has sex in it or their kid vomits or a pet shits, etc. Efficiency is all well and good but reality is people are disgusting and we generally want to keep to ourselves because of it.

    1. Re:It'll never happen by Krishnoid · · Score: 0

      Automated swappable seats/whole-lower-interior liners?

    2. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Automated swappable seats/whole-lower-interior liners?

      Just watch "Pimp My Ride" look at the before and decide if you want people like that in your vehicle or even to drive in a public vehicle which they've occupied.

    3. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +many mod points if I could.

    4. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Autowash

    5. Re:It'll never happen by Hadlock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah I'm not super keen on renting out my Toyota Corolla or VW whatever car, but I would be willing to buy a car designed and maintained by uber, but I could take on road trips/extended whatever simply by turning "off" the taxi mode an hour or two ahead of when I need to use it, like going camping for the weekend or whatever.
       
      To avoid getting crappy uber users, just set your car to only accept fares from users with at least 100 rides and an average of 4.8 stars or higher (out of 5 = 96%). Yeah on that rare occasion you will get a drunken 5 star rider who barfs in your car, but just send the car over to the Uber service center to get it cleaned up at a minimal cost. Small, almost inconsequential price to pay for basically a free car, maybe even make a profit renting your car out while you sleep/work.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    6. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have plenty of serviceable public transportation already. Not all; plenty. Or are you too good for park benches?

      That said, I wouldn't be surprised if conditions really did end up being shitty.

    7. Re:It'll never happen by twotacocombo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They don't want to sit in someone else's filth. They don't want their car to drive off, pick up someone who has sex in it or their kid vomits or a pet shits, etc.

      Yet millions of people still take public transportation every day.

    8. Re:It'll never happen by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is a way to make it happen, but I doubt it will fly. Korea basically did this in the 1970s and 1980s. The government knew it didn't have the road infrastructure to support every household owning a car, so they taxed cars up the wazoo. A car that might cost $10,000 would cost $50,000 after taxes ($100,000 in today's dollars). This had the effect of severely discouraging car ownership. In its place, a robust taxi industry sprang up. I remember visiting downtown Seoul and 80%-90% of the cars on the road were taxis. There were no traffic jams, and if you didn't want to wait for a bus you could hail a taxi within 15-30 seconds.

      It all fell apart in 1988. One of the Democratic nominees for President (Gephardt if I remember), in a bid to win Michigan made a huge ruckus about how Hyundai was allowed to sell its cars for $6000 in the U.S., while an equivalent Ford cost $45,000 in Korea. He conveniently left out that the same Hyundai also cost $45,000 in Korea. He didn't win the nomination, but the damage was done. U.S. public sentiment forced the U.S. to pressure Korea to remove their car taxes. Cars in Korea suddenly became affordable to the average household, and Korea plummeted into two decades of gridlock.

    9. Re:It'll never happen by trawg · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They don't want their car to drive off, pick up someone who has sex in it or their kid vomits or a pet shits, etc. Efficiency is all well and good but reality is people are disgusting and we generally want to keep to ourselves because of it.

      I would have thought this would be a huge problem, but after using car2go for about a year, there is only one time where I've had a mess on the interior - some weird sticky stuff spilt on the passenger seat (which, luckily, I saw before I sat in it) - I suspect it was some takeout sauce spilled out from a container or something.

      In many other rides though the cars have been spotless. Generally (anecdotally obviously) the system of simply saying whether the car is clean or not from the previous driver seems to work to keep out bad actors in the system. Having to have your credit card details on file probably helps too.

      Overall though car2go is great; we don't own a car here so we use it all the time now.

    10. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      They don't want to sit in someone else's filth. They don't want their car to drive off, pick up someone who has sex in it or their kid vomits or a pet shits, etc.

      Yet millions of people still take public transportation every day.

      Most do it because they can't afford to own a car. That said, it's not a debate about public transportation. The efficiencies they're talking about only work if the majority or entire system goes automated. Once you reach that then you run into the public vs private debate of individual cars vs mass transit.

    11. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're confusing "want" and "need" here, a common error.

    12. Re:It'll never happen by wbr1 · · Score: 1
      With the right systems, this is fixable. Simply have a button that says send back for cleaning. Make it no extra charge (work the cost into the base rate) so the person that messed up the cab has no disincentive to press the button. If they fail to press the button the next rider can and immediately get sent another This cab should be close by if not terribly under-provisioned for the load at that time.

      The system should be able to identify riders for billing purposes and could easily blacklist or apply sanctions to those who abuse they system in some way.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    13. Re:It'll never happen by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      Of course to be fair, those people are already taking public transportation and are already not contributing to the traffic problem in question. If they switch to robocabs it won't make any difference.

      Although in an ideal world that is at least some subset of people who are okay with public transportation in theory but don't currently find it practical. Personally i'd like to get a personal automated auto as soon as they're available, i'm not quite as enthusiastic about the robocab idea though.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    14. Re:It'll never happen by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 2

      They don't want to sit in someone else's filth.

      You really need to start wearing trousers.

    15. Re:It'll never happen by theIsovist · · Score: 1

      I love that your response is that something wont work because of the idea that something pretty terrible is going to happen just about every time you're in it. Cabs have this stuff happen, and have had it happen from the beginning. There's nothing stopping you from pressing a button and having the automated cab return home for cleaning. In fact, it works even better, because to hail the cab, you'll likely need an account, and if you're known as someone who destroys the interior, you'd get charged and/or banned. False reports to ruin the system? Same thing. Something people don't seem to notice about each other is that, in general, we're not actually that bad to one another. Some assholes will fuck things up, but if we were as bad as you worry, we'd never be able to have cities.

    16. Re:It'll never happen by Ramze · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most people who use mass transit use it because it is the most efficient way to get from A to B, not because they can't afford their own vehicle, nor because it's the cheapest option.

      Case in point: I stayed in Atlanta for a 4 day weekend at a convention downtown. I drove to my hotel, then used the hotel's free airport shuttle to the airport to take the subway/train system MARTA to downtown Atlanta and back daily (sometimes 3 or 4 round-trips in a day). It cost me all of $10... and it was the fastest way to get from my cheap hotel to downtown as there was also a ballgame and another convention as well and the roads were bumper to bumper. I rode the train several times a day - got my money's worth and met interesting convention-goers on the train. I took a taxi back to the hotel one night when I stayed out later than the trains ran.

      IF I had driven my car downtown to a lot, it would have taken two to three times as long - not to mention finding parking in busy downtown even with parking garages (I know - had a buddy that did that the next year we went), plus the cost of gas and parking for the day (for each day) would have been prohibitive. (We settled on staying at a guest hotel downtown the third year... no driving or trains. yay!)

      People in cities with mass transit often prefer it over having a vehicle... and they hate the tourists who bring their cars and don't know how to drive or where to park.

      But, back to your point -- you're incorrect. The efficiencies don't take hold when the vast majority of a system is automated -- they take place when only a small fraction is in place. There is a tipping point. If one single car stops to turn left into a parking garage, it can back up an entire left lane of traffic for a mile or more in a decent sized city. That's just one car. For each car that pauses to let someone out rather than turning and seeking parking, you get vast returns in traffic efficiency.

      If you must make the public vs private argument, then I'd say you're just arguing quality -- if people care enough, they'll get 2 tiered taxis. One for Uber and another for Super-Uber for those that want to ensure their car is squeaky clean. Most mass transit seats are plastic and easily washable. Cars could easily be outfitted with uncomfortable, but sanitary plastic seating and a bottle of alcohol spray for the germaphobes.

      Another aspect is that people junk up their cars with their own crap -- but, it's often stuff they want to keep, so they wouldn't be leaving that in Ubers... they'd just leave trash if they're litter-bugs. I bet Uber could record video and charge extra for damage or littering and put a stop to that (assuming it's paid by credit card).

      They key issues for ownership of vehicles are - utility, time, personalization, and storage. People like to keep their baby carriers in the vehicle... sometimes their drinks or other groceries, napkins, kleenex, lotion, sunglasses, etc. Sometimes people store presents in trunks to hide from family members.... various other things.

      The personal car isn't going away, but it could become an auto-driving personal car. Still, many families may only need 1 personal family car and use an Uber automated taxi for travelling to work, school, and most other short trips.

    17. Re:It'll never happen by mjwx · · Score: 2

      Yeah I'm not super keen on renting out my Toyota Corolla or VW whatever car, but I would be willing to buy a car designed and maintained by uber, but I could take on road trips/extended whatever simply by turning "off" the taxi mode an hour or two ahead of when I need to use it, like going camping for the weekend or whatever.

      Hi, it sounds like you dont understand Uber's business model. Would you like some help.

      Well stiff, you're getting some.

      Uber's business model consists of taking the profits whilst shifting as many costs as possible onto the vehicle owner as possible. So if you buy a car for Uber, you'll be paying the maintenance costs, some other manufacturer (Toyota, Renault, Tata, whoever) will pay the development costs. Ubers entire business model relies on them being the middleman for minimal cost to them.

      But you dont need to worry about that. By the time autonomous cars are good enough to do what you imagine, Uber will be nothing but a joke you say when you dont have enough wind to pass.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    18. Re:It'll never happen by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Quite simply, it's not going to happen. While some people are comfortable sharing their stuff, the vast majority are rather possessive. They don't want to sit in someone else's filth. They don't want their car to drive off, pick up someone who has sex in it or their kid vomits or a pet shits, etc. Efficiency is all well and good but reality is people are disgusting and we generally want to keep to ourselves because of it.

      Guess that is why Uber never took off.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    19. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      They don't want to sit in someone else's filth.

      You really need to start wearing trousers.

      Watch the mythbusters episodes on bathrooms and runny noses. ;)

    20. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Something people don't seem to notice about each other is that, in general, we're not actually that bad to one another. Some assholes will fuck things up, but if we were as bad as you worry, we'd never be able to have cities.

      You must be rich.

    21. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Traffic studies/simulations have repeatedly shown that most traffic problems originate from a single car causing a chain reaction which amplifies. You would need a significant portion of the system automated to compensate for that. Either to avoid those problems in the first place or to compensate once the problem has occurred.

    22. Re: It'll never happen by theIsovist · · Score: 1

      Haha, I wish. Last year I was on food stamps. Doing better this year but for the past three years I was living in an expensive city on 20k a year. I would kill for a proper car share to reduce the cost of taxis, to better recognize cyclists, and to keep texters from drifting between lanes

    23. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Point taken, though I would argue that the driver is self interested to keep their vehicle clean and because they are in the vehicle the passengers behave better than they would in a driverless vehicle.

    24. Re:It'll never happen by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      I ride UIer about three times a week. I live just far enough from the office, and I have to pay for parking downtown that it's right at the tipping point where riding my bike or taking an uber boils down to the weather.
       
      That said, over half the drivers I talk to have been driving for over six months, and it's their primary source of income. None of them seem particularly malnourished. Right now it's about $4 for a ride in my city, I would imagine if you cut the driver out of the equation the cost will drop significantly. Especially if you can get bulk rate on electricity and switch to electric cars, where you strip out most of the mechanical failure.
       
      If Uber doesn't offer some sort of Owner Operated ride share program (they already finance car loans), then someone else will come behind them and do it.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    25. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      I looked into things like that, they didn't make economic sense. Even with limited trips I'd be spending more on auto-sharing per month than owning my own vehicle. Granted my vehicle is fairly economical costing only $267/month over 14 years (all expenses included). Based on car2go rates, that would have been around $488/month

    26. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some studies have already started to show that a minor proportion of automatic cars can actually undo such chain reactions if programmed to do so.

    27. Re:It'll never happen by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Even personal robocars can drop you off and then drive far away to park. That alone should help a great deal with congestion.

    28. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      That sounds all well and great but think about the reality of it. You send your car out to make money, it comes back a mess right as you're about to head to that important [insert thing]. You need to send your car off to get cleaned, wait for another car, pay someone else to use it, and be late for that thing.

    29. Re:It'll never happen by recharged95 · · Score: 1

      Shared autonomous vehicles will have their place. High traffic work areas easily and anything that demands public transport (sporting games, movies, schools, etc)... and will easily threaten to replace subways and buses--yes, replace them. The urban planners will have a lot of headaches considering they are pushing these mix-use living areas integrated into public transportation, not considering it's more expensive and time consuming [construction] to put living quarters with the subway and a bus station, etc...

      Now trendy areas, i.e. date places and high 'look at me' places will demand person transport--cause automobiles are part of those "I have arrived" venues and events. There's also the hobby part (i.e. look at the horse and bicycle industries), but that's a fringe of what is being scaled.

      But we'll just go on this see-saw of 'they solve everything' to 'it's crap hyped tech' for the next 5 yrs.

      As much as us geeks think their gods and can develop the be all-end all solution, it's just never is the case in the real world. One things for sure--bet on autonomous cars, it's coming.

    30. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      I completely agree. They'll very much have a place in the mix. I just don't think they'll ever have the critical mass to allow for some of the efficiency gains & widespread sharing that are being espoused. They'll just be another option among the many that are available. They'll have pros and cons like anything else in this world.

    31. Re:It'll never happen by RicktheBrick · · Score: 1

      1. They will know who used it last so if it is not right just take a picture and send it to the authorities.
      2. The people will either pay a huge fine or never able to use a car again.
      3. The car would probably do this as a precaution. It would take a picture of the inside and outside before and after each trip.
      4, If the car is attacked by an outside force of people than the occupant would call and report it to the police.

    32. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 2

      Some studies have already started to show that a minor proportion of automatic cars can actually undo such chain reactions if programmed to do so.

      Link? I'd be interested to read about that.

    33. Re:It'll never happen by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Yet millions of people still take public transportation every day.

      Compared to public transportation:
      + Leaves from where you are
      + Going to where you want
      + When you want
      + In solitude

      Compared to private car:
      - No personalization
      - Potential left-overs

      I have a decent public transport offer where I live, but driving is 15 mins and 2x bus is 35 mins, 20 mins saved twice a day that's 40 mins. Times 225 working days that's 150 hours a year. I'm thinking that even though I need it daily it can do at least three rounds in the morning (7AM, 8AM, 9AM) and in the afternoon (3PM, 4PM, 5PM) and since there'll probably be an abundance of cars in off-peak hours a smart company might try to keep commuter cars away from most of the ad hoc taxi service, since they're likely to be the worst offenders.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    34. Re:It'll never happen by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Here is a counter example. I live pretty close to work. Due to the local transit system not being very well timed for my route It would take 40 minutes from door to door to get to work. That includes an almost 10 minute wait at a transfer and a ten minute walk from the closest bus stop. It is a ten minute drive and and I always arrive bone dry. Taking transit would mean an extra five hours a week commuting and arriving soaked many days ( It rains a lot is also quite windy here). Sorry but I'll take my car.

    35. Re:It'll never happen by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      then why does the traffic back up the same way and the same time every day?

    36. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      That doesn't do you much good when you need it to get somewhere.

    37. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      then why does the traffic back up the same way and the same time every day?

      Depends on the scenario. Mostly though it comes down to speed differences. Highway driving, people entering (especially a lot at once) cause traffic to slow down. Everyone behind them needs to slow down as well but it creates an amplification effect that travels like an accordion causing each person behind them to slow more than they did. Traffic jams are eased by people slowing down and going the same speed. They last longer due to jackasses who try and find the fastest lane - each lane change usually results in another accordion effect due to the psychology of break lights (people see them and over break instead of leaving a larger gap & allowing their drive train to slow for small speed changes... that's why you'll see people leaving large gaps in the middle of traffic jams; they keep their speed constant and stop the accordion effect though they can only stop 2-3 of them before they have to re-gap).

      In town it's the lights. While they regulate traffic, most of a green light is spent waiting for the line of cars to accelerate with each car in the line taking longer than the next to get moving due to not wanting to over-accelerate and cause a crash. In automated cars they could solve this if every car had a standard acceleration rate, however, they would still need to make adjustments for differences in traction.

    38. Re:It'll never happen by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Quite simply, it's going to happen. Autonomous does not mean anonymous and there will be apps/levers for "unacceptable" to signal the car needs cleaning/service. None of the problems you describe, will be a large scale issue. The wealthy will have dedicated cars (just like they do now) but most people will simply hail autonomous ones. Your paranoia will disappear, just like every other individual, when this is put into practice.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    39. Re:It'll never happen by turbidostato · · Score: 2

      "Compared to public transportation:
      + Leaves from where you are
      + Going to where you want
      + When you want
      + In solitude"

      You know taxi cabs are also public transportation, right?

      And here comes the elephant in the room for this article: all that it says can also be applied to taxi cabs, which already exist and still the expected results aren't happening.

    40. Re:It'll never happen by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Press button when you start the ride: charge previous person with cleaning fee + penalty (maybe have the human cleaner confirm it's indeed dirty - could build in some arbitration there).

      Press button when you finish the ride: "sorry, I made a mess, please clean it up for me", lower charge.

      Incentive to keep the thing clean (messing it up costs you a cleaning fee) & incentive to report you made a mistake (avoid the higher cleaning fee) & less risk of running into a dirty vehicle when attempting hire (as most such accidents will be reported right away).

      Riders are of course to be identified, presumably by having some kind of account (pre-paid or post-paid) which they use to hail a vehicle as well.

    41. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty close huh? Ride a bike. (queue the bullshit excuses about carrying extra clothes, too hot, sweaty, cold, rainy bla bla... bullshit excuses, all of it. Just do it)

    42. Re:It'll never happen by Noah+Haders · · Score: 2

      They don't want to sit in someone else's filth. They don't want their car to drive off, pick up someone who has sex in it or their kid vomits or a pet shits, etc.

      Yet millions of people still take public transportation every day.

      when I take the train, yes it's a public space but unlike this own and lend out model I am not on the hook for a $40k car loan on it.

    43. Re:It'll never happen by Noah+Haders · · Score: 2

      no need to link cuz it's common knowledge and obvious, duh /s

    44. Re:It'll never happen by edcheevy · · Score: 1

      The same challenges exist elsewhere (e.g. hotels) and have been pretty well solved by rating systems, brands/chains (you expect and pay for different levels of cleanliness at Motel 6), and general human decency. I know gross hotels make for good 6 o'clock news footage, but most people still use them and automated cars should be even cleaner. I expect the major fleets to be chock full of cameras, both inside & out, for liability purposes. Trust me, Google/Uber/Hertz will know who is messing up their cars and cut them off quickly. Johnny Cab covered in vomit shows up? Report it via the app and get a new car, a whopping 20 second delay. The previous rider gets slapped with a fat cleaning fee and/or ban.

    45. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      I suspect it'll be more along the lines of current taxi services, just without drivers.

    46. Re:It'll never happen by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      so now you are saying that circumstances create most traffic jams and earlier you were saying that individual actions cause most traffic jams

      are you smoking from both ends of that pipe or what?

    47. Re:It'll never happen by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      And here comes the elephant in the room for this article: all that it says can also be applied to taxi cabs, which already exist and still the expected results aren't happening.

      Taxi drivers are not very keen on waiting for hours between fares, driverless cabs could care less if they have to wait 3 hours between fares if it's a slow night. So you can have a driverless taxi show up quickly during off hours when it's not economical for a human taxi driver to be out looking for fares.

    48. Re:It'll never happen by matthewv789 · · Score: 1

      Every ZipCar I've ever driven has been near spotless. Not saying it couldn't happen, especially after it gets more widespread (and taxis could be different from rental cars), but there might be hope for humanity yet.

    49. Re:It'll never happen by FranTaylor · · Score: 3, Informative

      here's a counter counter example: It takes 1 hour for me to take the train into the city. It takes 2.5 hours to drive into the city. The cost of parking in the city for the day is double the price of the train ticket. But that is irrelevant, the time difference alone seals the deal for the train.

    50. Re:It'll never happen by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      You know taxi cabs are also public transportation, right?

      That's really a question of defintions. They are "public" in the sense they are not owned by the passengers and available for use by the general public but they are "private" in the sense that they carry one passenger or a private group of passengers at a time and that passenger/group tells them where to go.

      And here comes the elephant in the room for this article: all that it says can also be applied to taxi cabs, which already exist and still the expected results aren't happening.

      Where I live taxis cost £2 for the first half mile and about £2,50 per mile after that. According to the AA the marginal cost of running a basic car is about 20p per mile and the fixed costs are about £2K per year. Unless your total miles travelled is very low or you live/work somewhere were parking is extremely expensive using taxis is substantially more expensive than keeping a car. As for public transport where I live for just over £1K per year I can (and do) buy a pass that lets me travel by bus and train anywhere in the conurbation.

      I could be wrong but aiui taxis being an expensive option is the typical scenario.

      Therefore afaict normal people only use taxis on an occasional basis as a fill-in solution. If automated cars can bring taxi prices down to say 60p per mile such that they are competitive with private cars at the 5K miles per year level I would expect them to be much more popular.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    51. Re:It'll never happen by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      Point taken, though I would argue that the driver is self interested to keep their vehicle clean

      Are you from this planet? You don't seem to have a good grasp of human nature. Next time you are in a parking lot, look in the windows at the cars. Just about every car will have cups, lids, napkins, candy wrappers, plastic spoons, scraps of grocery lists, dead leaves, etc. all over the place.

    52. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      LOL - right. Here's an example: 3 to 3.5 stars on various sites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      As to the "fleets" argument, that's not the point, taxis fleets can do automated vehicles and do just fine. The point is whether the efficiencies in traffic flow & personal auto-sharing is viable.

    53. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      so now you are saying that circumstances create most traffic jams and earlier you were saying that individual actions cause most traffic jams

      are you smoking from both ends of that pipe or what?

      No, I'm saying that individuals create most traffic jams, though their causes can vary by situation. Examples of individuals causing/contributing to/prolonging traffic jams: car crash, not getting up to speed when entering a highway, accelerating slowly/stalling/etc at lights (have similar effects to those caused by turning cars which is why turning lanes were created), riding breaks, individuals changing lanes needlessly during high volume times, etc. Situational traffic jams would be things like construction, bottleneck in traffic, poorly designed on/off ramps (like DVP/401 in Toronto), rubbernecking.

    54. Re:It'll never happen by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      While some people are comfortable sharing their stuff, the vast majority are rather possessive. They don't want to sit in someone else's filth.

      Is that why nobody uses taxis, and everyone owns their own elevator?

    55. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Point taken, though I would argue that the driver is self interested to keep their vehicle clean

      Are you from this planet? You don't seem to have a good grasp of human nature. Next time you are in a parking lot, look in the windows at the cars. Just about every car will have cups, lids, napkins, candy wrappers, plastic spoons, scraps of grocery lists, dead leaves, etc. all over the place.

      I'm talking specifically about Uber drivers, not drivers in general. Uber drivers are self-interested because a dirty car can lead to a bad review. In general, I agree with you and that was the point of my OP - people are disgusting and will likely trash personal automated vehicles that are rented out while not in use by their owners. I think it would be more likely because there is no driver to keep them in line. Even if you can get your money for the cleanup it's a huge inconvenience and that's why I think it'll never happen. You'll get taxi services doing it and some individuals but not to the level the article suggests.

    56. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      While some people are comfortable sharing their stuff, the vast majority are rather possessive. They don't want to sit in someone else's filth.

      Is that why nobody uses taxis, and everyone owns their own elevator?

      Taxis are generally cleaned regularly, you also have a driver who usually prevents some of the nastier things from occurring. As to elevators, you're not sitting for long periods in an elevator and the only thing you really have to touch is a single button which I usually do with my keys or something I'm holding. Elevators are nasty - our old building there was frequent vomit, animal urine, garbage, and various other substances.

    57. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      here's a counter counter example: It takes 1 hour for me to take the train into the city. It takes 2.5 hours to drive into the city. The cost of parking in the city for the day is double the price of the train ticket. But that is irrelevant, the time difference alone seals the deal for the train.

      Trains & subways are great when you're close to them. We used to live 2 blocks from 2 different subway lines and could get most places very quickly. We moved to a much larger/cheaper place and now it takes 30-50 minutes by bus to reach a train/subway. By driving instead of taking public transit we've cut 315 minutes off our weekly commute. It's all very situational, it can work for some and be horrid for others. To the larger point though, public transit is just a piece of the transportation puzzle, just like automated vehicles will be, but none of them will be a silver bullet solution to all the problems and will create new problems.

    58. Re:It'll never happen by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Taxis are generally cleaned regularly, you also have a driver who usually prevents some of the nastier things from occurring.

      Both of these problems can be solved with cameras. A camera can detect if the SDC needs to be cleaned, and then it can drive itself to a cleaning station. The camera will also record the events that caused the problem, and if it involved misbehavior, the credit card of the offender can be debited for the cost of cleaning, as the rider agreed in the EULA.

      Passenger compartment cameras are not a new idea. Many taxis and buses already have them, and people generally accept them.

    59. Re:It'll never happen by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      While some people are comfortable sharing their stuff, the vast majority are rather possessive.

      It's already happening. Maybe not to the Slashdot generation but a lot of young people have absolutely no problem with communal sharing of expensive stuff. It's why Uber, Lyft, AirBNB,____ exist.

      Makerspaces and tool libraries are popping up as well. Not everyone can justify owning a CNC machine, table saw or even a drill. People just know it's their responsibility to clean up and not

      And maybe it'll only work in Europe where people seem to share a bit better with regards to how society runs. YOU may want your own personal car but a vast majority of recent college graduates would subscribe to a 'all you can drive' robocar service at the drop of a hat. Cars are expensive, expensive to maintain, expensive to park in cities, expensive to register. We would drop my wife's car in an instant if she had a JohnnyCab where we lived.

    60. Re:It'll never happen by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Uber will be nothing but a joke you say when you dont have enough wind to pass.

      Which is why they've teamed up with Carnegie Mellon. (Those same guys that made the big red HMMWV autonomous in 2004). Then 3 months after teaming up with them poached their best.

      Uber's current business model is to outsource a bunch of data acquisition for the lowest cost possible. Right now the rides are just another datapoint they collect for where future automated parking garages need to be built. I'm sure there are people at Uber right now looking at heatmaps of pickup locations cheap 3-phase power and cheap property values.

      Google already has their 'car'. I wouldn't be shocked that at the next auto show Uber unveiled their 'taxi of the future'. They'll put a few in where it's legal and make another version. It's why every auto maker is rushing to have their stuff out first. There will be a transition period where people will still insist on driving but then can't live without the automation.

      When Delphi was selling cruise control they made a contest that sent the dealership with the most cruise control upgrades sold would get a trip to Hawaii. Every year more and more cars got sold with it and Delphi stopped giving out free trips to Hawaii. The demand and word of mouth had it that *everyone* wanted it. There are kids this year that will never learn to drive a car, ever.

    61. Re:It'll never happen by houghi · · Score: 1

      Most of the cars are parked somewhere. Congestion happens with those cars that are not parked. So even if we ASLL shared our cars, people would still have to go somewhere.

      I do car sharing not for enviromental reasons, but for financial reasons. I take public transport and only used my car to go shopping once a week. Many people instead of having a second car could benefit from car sharing.

      I do not believe there is an OR/OR solution. I think there might be an AND/AND solution.

      And about the filth: the cars are cleaner then my cars ever where after day two. This is not a public bathroom and as you know who was in the car when, it is pretty easy to find out who made the mess and let them pay for cleanup.

      I use http://cambio.be/ for those interested.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    62. Re:It'll never happen by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      This is a very US-Centric way of thinking. The US is in control of car policy in South Korea! Wow, they screwed that one up!

      Korea had other things going on than concerns risen by a candidate for president who managed 6% of the Democratic vote. In 1987, the South Korean government was controlled by a military government that had taken power with a coup. In 1988, it has an elected president. The GDP/capita was 2-3 times what it had been just 10 years earlier, and really the country was just beginning to move out of being a 3rd world hellhole. Of course once a country gains wealth and a more democratic government, it's going to be more likely to move towards private ownership of cars.

      Currently, there are plenty of nations with membership in the WTO (and its subsequent limitations on tariffs) that have higher prices on cars. For instance, many countries have high registration fees, even in the tens of thousands of dollars. Fuel taxes or a million other things could have accomplished the same basic goals as tariffs.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    63. Re:It'll never happen by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 2

      It's like Seldon's Psychohistory :

      Society is composed of individuals. And you can expect that statistically there is a certain distribution of behaviour, so in general you can treat those individuals as a mass. And there is the unthinking universe (roads, etc) which the people react to.

      The guys who cause traffic jams are outliers in that they drive like epic assholes, but it only takes a few to induce traffic jams because most other people drive in a way that doesn't leave enough slack to absorb the sudden braking and lane changing of epic assholes well. You could theorise that this is because they see a few assholes driving and thereafter drive in a way that stops people "taking advantage" (e.g. jumping queues and merging near the front).

      Throw in a few more drivers who leave long gaps, don't brake too quickly, politely let people merge, etc, and they can undo some of the circumstances caused by idiots.

    64. Re:It'll never happen by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Taxi drivers are not very keen on waiting for hours between fares"

      Nor they should. You just call when you need them.

      "So you can have a driverless taxi show up quickly during off hours when it's not economical for a human taxi driver to be out looking for fares."

      You are wrong in two different ways:
      1) Specially when you know in advance, they'll go wherever you tell them and they'll be there on time. And then, being a known customer also helps a lot: I know, because that's what I do.
      2) Why do you think that economic incentives for driverless cabs are any different than those with a human taxi driver? Yes, costs will be lower all the way, but still there won't be a taxi doing nothing just waiting for you: if that's the case, the owner will just own one less unit to avoid the cost.

    65. Re:It'll never happen by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "That's really a question of defintions."

      On one hand, yes, since basically everything is a matter of definition: a chair could be a table, under the proper definition.

      But on the other hand, for any sane definition, taxis are public transportation. The difference you spot is the one between massive public transportation and non-massive public transportation.

      "Where I live taxis cost £2 for the first half mile and about £2,50 per mile after that."

      Yes, but the article does no mention about usage costs: just that autonomous cabs don't need to park.

    66. Re:It'll never happen by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Why can't people in some countries respect public transport vehicles and keep them clean? Japanese trains and buses are immaculate. British ones vary by route, but especially buses can be quite filthy. From what I read US public transport is festering.

      Maybe some populations just can't be trusted to live considerately together, and massive traffic jams and circling looking for a parking space are the punishment.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    67. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on the city and where you're going. When I was commuting into the city the train was slightly quicker on average if you counted the occasional traffic jam. However given the time it took me to drive to the train station, find parking, wait for the train, take the train, wait for the bus, and take the bus the car ended up taking the same amount of time if there was no traffic jam (which wasn't that frequent really). Also parking was about the same cost as the train ticket and bus pass, and if the train broke down (which happened a few times) it was a much, much bigger delay as you're stuck on it between stations while in my car it was possible to get off the highway and take an alternate route.

      Also I got sick way, way less often when I stopped riding the plague train during the winter.

    68. Re:It'll never happen by mrprogrammerman · · Score: 1

      Most of that could be minimized if people followed some basic things. Try to drive at a constant speed (speed limit if possible) and accelerate gradually. Brake only if necessary and gradually. Just taking your foot of the accelerator is enough sometimes. Make smooth transitions when turning. The benefit of all of this is improved fuel efficiency and much fewer accidents.

    69. Re:It'll never happen by trawg · · Score: 1

      Yep, doesn't work for everyone. We live in a cool area so going out for us is walking outside; I'm on a sabbatical so am "working" from home and my partner walks to her job. So we're much better off than if we owned a car simply because our "base driving rate" is pretty close to zero anyway.

      Would be totally different if we needed to drive to work regularly.

    70. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to play this game ...

      I live pretty close to many places I might workdowntown. Due to the commuter rail timing and connections it would take an hour to get in, whereas outside of rush hour I can drive it in 25 minutes. I know that everything clogs up on rush hour but don't know how badly since I don't actually do it, however that is irrelevant. The cost of parking downtown for about three days pays for the monthly transit pass. The cost of parking alone seals the deal for me.

    71. Re:It'll never happen by bigpat · · Score: 1

      Traffic studies/simulations have repeatedly shown that most traffic problems originate from a single car causing a chain reaction which amplifies. You would need a significant portion of the system automated to compensate for that. Either to avoid those problems in the first place or to compensate once the problem has occurred.

      Those individual cars that cause the most problems are probably driven by people who are bad drivers, know they are bad drivers and are going to be more likely to want automated vehicles. So, you are potentially realizing improvements and efficiencies early on in the adoption cycle.

    72. Re:It'll never happen by bigpat · · Score: 1

      here's a counter counter example: It takes 1 hour for me to take the train into the city. It takes 2.5 hours to drive into the city. The cost of parking in the city for the day is double the price of the train ticket. But that is irrelevant, the time difference alone seals the deal for the train.

      For the metropolitan urban core and people commuting into the urban core this is often the case. Yet it is the exact opposite outside the urban core where even during peak rush hour mass transit takes 2.5 times that of cars.

      These days Google Maps makes it easy to compare different commutes and commuting times.

      Mass transit is capital intensive, inflexible when it is along fixed and often incompatible rail networks and therefore often lags development and is geared towards... surprise... places with already a very high population density or places where such high density is planned for. Cars can get bogged down in the city where trains operating at full capacity can move a lot of people from point A to point B in a predictably consistent amount of time, but car transportation is much less capital intensive than mass transit in small cities, suburban and rural areas where paving a road (or even a dirt road can suffice) and buying cars are cheaper than trains and rail infrastructure and can be adapted to smaller scale development more quickly.

      People can get almost religious in their beliefs about the benefits of either system, but there are benefits to both roads and rail applied to the right situation. With new automated car technology that could shift the balance of benefits back towards cars closer to the high density urban core and I think it will certainly help those smaller cities that were often left without good mass transit and rely on parking garages to get people into the city. But steel on rail trains in a well run system with dedicated rights of way are likely to win out in the bigger city downtown urban core areas because of higher capacity and reliable transit times.

    73. Re:It'll never happen by bledri · · Score: 2

      Automated swappable seats/whole-lower-interior liners?

      Just watch "Pimp My Ride" look at the before and decide if you want people like that in your vehicle or even to drive in a public vehicle which they've occupied.

      This is such a solvable problem. First off all, contrary to the popular opinion of "all other humans are total assholes," most humans are mostly decent most of the time. Otherwise society would collapse. Second, all the cabs would have cameras and some mechanism for customers to report problems for that small percentage of the time that the cab is occupied by someone behaved badly/sloppily or something broke, etc. Third, part of the contract for using the cab is that if you damage it, you pay a shit ton of money; make a mess (like accidentally spilling a drink) and report it, you pay a small fee; make a mess and don't report it, you pay a big fee.

      Very quickly, people would be trained to remove all their trash from the cab and to report problems when they see them or cause them. This is not rocket science.

      --
      Some privacy policy Slashdot.
    74. Re: It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. I've never gone to pick up a ZipCar and found jizz all over it or anything like that.

      This idea sounds like Uber without drivers. In the case of rating the occupant, the next occupant is the one doing the rating.

      I think this will be more successful than the PP imagines. I'd take a ride in one...

    75. Re:It'll never happen by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      This is not rocket science.

      True, but in some ways it will be harder. You'll have a nearly unlimited number of bums, drunks, vandals, thieves, and malicious teenage boys, thinking of every possible way they can steal from, piss in, spray paint, have sex in, etc. And, you think they're going to solve this with a few cameras? BWHAHAHAHAHA!

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    76. Re:It'll never happen by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Not. Duh yourself.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    77. Re:It'll never happen by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      Like the jackass cop who, during rush hour, pulls some other jackass over for breaking the HOV rule. The cop now creates an artificial traffic jam, because everyone slows down for the flashing lights. Sure the guy/gal may have deserved a ticket, but now thousands of other commuters have to pay for it by sitting in bumper to bumper traffic...really makes me want to yell at Barney Fife. /rant

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    78. Re:It'll never happen by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Agreeing with the parent here.

      The DC Metro coverage isn't good enough here. My 20 min commute would turn into over an hour each way.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    79. Re:It'll never happen by devman · · Score: 1

      I had heard this claim as well. I remember being stated roughly as "If 10% of cars were automated, improvements would be seen." so I decided to do some Google-Fu, I came up with a few articles quoting the linked study on that figure.

      https://www.enotrans.org/wp-co...

    80. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Some of the congestion numbers are based on 'MSN Auto' articles which doesn't inspire confidence. The best claim, backed by a reputable source, is that 10% market penetration results in 1% improvement in congestion, 50% having 21% improvement, 90% having an 80% improvement. That's in line with what I know of the subject that even when you have a majority of vehicles converted (50-70%) the improvements are incremental at best but once you convert 80%+ the curve accelerates because the majority of the vehicles are behaving in the same manner and the remaining drivers are more likely to mimic the majority.

    81. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brake. The word you want is is brake. Not break.

    82. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Most do it because they can't afford to own a car.

      Or many, like myself, realize that traffic, parking, and purchasing fuel and insurance is a level of suckage that is probably one of the tortures reserved for the damned in hell.

    83. Re:It'll never happen by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Thing is, I paid $25K or so up front for a device that moves me around and stores some of my stuff, and then I keep paying and paying. That's a lot of money. If I could get decent transportation for just the operating expenses, I'd be willing to put up with some inconvenience.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    84. Re:It'll never happen by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Thing is, I paid $25K or so up front for a device that moves me around and stores some of my stuff, and then I keep paying and paying. That's a lot of money. If I could get decent transportation for just the operating expenses, I'd be willing to put up with some inconvenience.

      The person who buys the vehicle will still have that expense, will be recouping that cost plus profit. As stated previously, for me an Echo cost me $267/m over 14 years where a car share would have cost me $488 over the same period. Then factor in the fact that fewer people will be buying cars meaning car companies will have to increase prices, the cars will be driven more often meaning more maintenance on them and all the sudden you're paying a lot more over the span of years. Sure there's no capital costs but now it's a 54% premium, in the future I imagine that will go up.

    85. Re:It'll never happen by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      That's because Zipcar employees keep them clean.

  3. autonomous cars != end of personal car ownership by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 2, Informative

    >> autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride

    I'm hoping "autonomous cars != end of personal car ownership." I still like to have my own passenger compartment that no one else has eaten in, thrown up in, etc. that I can maintain to my own standard of hygiene.

  4. Err, no, that isn't how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "The good news is that autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride. They could change city life forever."

    This will not change with autonomous cars. If people didn't want to own cars, the above situation could exist _now_ -- they are or were called taxis/taxi cabs/cabs/hansom cabs/licensed hackney carriages.

    The reality is that people -- especially Americans, I suspect -- want to own cars. Only banning private vehicles from the streets or levying huge congestion charges on them is going to take them off the streets.

    1. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by erice · · Score: 1

      "The good news is that autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride. They could change city life forever."

      This will not change with autonomous cars. If people didn't want to own cars, the above situation could exist _now_ -- they are or were called taxis/taxi cabs/cabs/hansom cabs/licensed hackney carriages.

      Yes and no. In principle people could do that and certain very high density areas, they already do. However, outside these areas, relying on taxis is too expensive and inconvenient. Further, the cost of car ownership is lower since parking one is neither difficult nor expensive.

      Autonomous vehicles will greatly reduce the cost of taxis. The cost reduction means there will be more of them so they will be more convenient too. I expect many more people will choose to go car-less in that environment.

      I don't expect all them will give up their cars, though. I'm not even sure that most of them will.

      Self-driving cars do actually have to park.

      Private self-driving cars will need to go somewhere to wait. It won't need to be all that close but they will need to go there. This may actually increase traffic on freeways and arterials as self driving cars head home after dropping off their owners, only to return again sometime later to pick them up. One round trip turns into two.

      Self driving taxi will not be able to stay usefully in service all the time. They will need to park somewhere or circle uselessly, which is arguably worse.

    2. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reality is that people -- especially Americans, I suspect -- want to own cars. Only banning private vehicles from the streets or levying huge congestion charges on them is going to take them off the streets.

      I think both the article and you are too extreme.

      A self driving car will park more quickly and more precise than a human driver, this mitigating the problem.
      Self driving cars will also be better at adapting to current traffic speed. Humans typically overcompensates witch maintains a jam by making everyone move jerky. (If you look at a human catching a falling object or similar the human will typically catch the object, decelerate it to much causing an oscillation with the arm, humans are very bad at judging the relation between acceleration and speed.)

      With both the quicker parking and self driving cars making vehicles move with better fluidity the traffic situation can be improved greatly even if just 10% of the vehicles are self driving.

    3. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I live in England, in a town where I really should have a car. For various personal reasons I do not drive; I kind of wish I did but it might not happen.

      I also visit London, where it is now possible to cross roads again and generally get around because a congestion charge -- which is an EXISTING FACT that was grounded in really quite right wing economics but implemented by a left-wing mayor and perpetuated by a right wing mayor -- is in place. Average traffic speeds are in fact increasing -- they are almost back up to the speeds of the 1930s. Pollution is lower. London is slightly nicer as a result.

      This is all I meant. I didn't attack car ownership, I just stated a fact that others have stated: people like their cars.

      You, on the other hand, overreacted as if I'd kicked you in the balls. Was it because I said 'especially Americans'? Was that actually untrue or did I just challenge your implicit association between car ownership and penis size, or something?

    4. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reality is that people -- especially Americans, I suspect -- want to own cars.

      Even if everyone owns their own car, autonomous cars still make parking easier. You don't have to send the car home or park it where it drops you off. The car can park itself a couple miles away.

      And the truth is that autonomous cars do shift the balance between owning and taxis. One of the most expensive parts of a taxi is the driver. Assuming the taxi has a passenger half the time, averages fifteen miles an hour, and the typical trip is five miles, that would mean that a $12/hour driver costs $8 per trip while the IRS says the taxi only costs $5.75. This suggests that autonomous taxis should be half the cost of current taxis.

      Autonomous taxis also don't require medallions to work. The idea behind medallions is to create artificial scarcity to keep driver wages up (and they allow things like criminal records checks for drivers). Without drivers, autonomous cars don't require artificial scarcity. So there can be more of them, giving better service. Better service for a lower price means that autonomous taxis are more attractive relative to owning than current taxis.

      Also, even if you own a car, it may still be worth taking a taxi if the cost of parking is more than the cost of the taxi. If event parking costs $20 and two taxi rides are only $10 or less (each), then maybe you're better off taking the taxis. Heck, if you calculate fuel and maintenance costs properly, parking can be cheaper than the trip and still the overall costs may be higher.

    5. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      If people didn't want to own cars, the above situation could exist _now_

      Dear New Yorker,

      Your English dialect uses the word "want" in a way that sounds very amusing to people in the western United States. HTH.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    6. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by FranTaylor · · Score: 0

      Your English dialect uses the word "want" in a way that sounds very amusing to people in the western United States. HTH.

      Your use of the word "want" is also amusing when it it comes to choosing a practical place to live.

    7. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you just irrationally assumed that your small-minded, small-country perspective is relevant to a country that has counties larger than your island.

    8. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I'm english. Most of you guys sound like hillbillies to us.

      Captcha: cottons. I'm sure this is an advanced AI joke machine.

    9. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. I kicked two pairs of balls at once, apparently. Unless it's the one guy's testicles posting as anonymous coward?

      London... small-minded?

      Just out of interest, London's successful congestion charging model is being trialled in various places in the States, and congestion-based pricing is already in effect in a few places (the Bay Bridge for example).

      Oh, and the model was a very direct application of research by a dude called Milton Friedman.

      Who was an American.

      Just go back to brewing your moonshine.

    10. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      Autonomous cars would contact all nearby car parks for free space, make an instant reservation on any free space, and go there. Car owner would have to call his car say 10 mins before he wants to leave (or wait for it to arrive) so the car can leave the car park and head out to pick up its owner. This would to me be just a logical extension to fully autonomous cars.

      Those car parks would of course have to reserve some space for autonomous cars only or so, or maybe operate a mixed system, while there are still manual driven cars around as well. Security of the autonomous-only area would be easy as well: no humans allowed in.

    11. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Autonomous taxis also don't require medallions to work. The idea behind medallions is to create artificial scarcity to keep driver wages up. Without drivers, autonomous cars don't require artificial scarcity."

      Taxi drivers are not prima donnas that require protection beyond other workers. They have the artificial scarcity because they can, and you can bet that they'll try the same game on autonomous cars (hey, they'll need special inspections and regulations) and they'll probably win because the already set expectation on their human-driven counterparts (*and* it will be the same people/business that currently control the taxis the ones that will control the autonomous ones).

      All that being said, yes, autonomous cars should mean a big cut on costs that -eventually, should appear as a cut in prices too.

    12. Re:Err, no, that isn't how it works by sl149q · · Score: 1

      The reality is that people - not especially Americans, don't want to pay the high cost of having somebody else drive the car.

      Once you remove the cost of the driver and really are comparing just the cost of the car and operating the car it becomes a much more level playing field.

  5. Uber - Cabby Riots - Autonomous by Hylandr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If cab drivers are going to riot in the street and inflict personal harm and property damage, who the hell thinks an autonomous car has a snowballs chance in hell ?

    --
    ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    1. Re:Uber - Cabby Riots - Autonomous by sehlat · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure autonomous cars will have exterior video cameras which will show the perpetrators who damage the cars. Nothing like providing video evidence of misdoing, is there, as a growing number of cops are discovering?

    2. Re:Uber - Cabby Riots - Autonomous by bobbied · · Score: 1

      If cab drivers are going to riot in the street and inflict personal harm and property damage, who the hell thinks an autonomous car has a snowballs chance in hell ?

      Especially when all the Uber, Lyft, etc drivers realize that THEIR meal ticket won't get punched as much once the cheaper alternative shows up to ruin their little business... Sounds like fair play to me...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:Uber - Cabby Riots - Autonomous by mspohr · · Score: 1

      The Robot cars will fight back. It will get ugly.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    4. Re:Uber - Cabby Riots - Autonomous by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      So in addition to taking car parts they get some brand new cameras and a recording device too.

      I see your logic there.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    5. Re:Uber - Cabby Riots - Autonomous by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      Nah.... Every Uber driver I've met is doing it as extra side income. Their "need" for that particular type of job is on about the same level as the guy mowing lawns on weekends for some extra cash.

      If they realize they can buy an autonomous car next time they need a new vehicle, and charge people some money to borrow it for automated trips from point A to B? Then they're going to be even happier, as they don't have to be there doing the driving to earn some extra cash.

  6. Take me to this music festival. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I own a car primary for road trips, camping, and music festivals. No robot, cab or car-share business works for my needs. Renting works but is risky as hell because there is no such thing as rental insurance which is still valid after you take the rental car on a non-paved road (which is a necessity for my needs).

    So... Until I can tell a robotic car to take me to an exact location which requires some off-roading or driving on non-marked, private mud/dirt roads (i.e., breaking the programming of the car), I will always have a desire to own my own 4x4.

    1. Re: Take me to this music festival. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't matter. If that's the only use you have for your car, then you are not impacting the traffic jams.

  7. Cabbies can't win by Etherwalk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If cab drivers are going to riot in the street and inflict personal harm and property damage, who the hell thinks an autonomous car has a snowballs chance in hell ?

    There are not enough cab drivers to cause a revolution on their own, and the people aren't with them. The state has far more power and will apply it to suppress personal harm and property damage, and the public will be with the state. Thus they can slow change by various methods--most notably bribery of elected officials and regulatory capture--but they cannot stop it entirely.

    Money is the only thing that would let them stop it entirely given those circumstances. (As we see with the health insurance industry which is able to largely prevent meaningful change. Obamacare came 16 years after Bill Clinton tried something bigger, after all.) And the industry doesn't have enough money to do that.

    1. Re:Cabbies can't win by TWX · · Score: 2

      On top of that, in markets with expensive, limited quantity licensing, cab companies (the ones that actually own the medallions) would have an interest in eliminating the driver from the equation. They could run as few or as many cars as there's a demand for. Private owner-operators that own one license and one car could still operate that car too, but now they wouldn't necessarily have to be with it the whole time.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:Cabbies can't win by DaHat · · Score: 1

      There are not enough cab drivers to cause a revolution on their own, and the people aren't with them.

      First they came for the bank teller, I wasn't a bank teller so I said nothing.

      Then they came for the cab drivers, I wasn't a cab driver so I said nothing.

      Then they came for the long haul truck driver, I wasn't a truck driver so I said nothing.

      Then they came for my neighbors doctor job, I wasn't a doctor so I said nothing.

      Then they came for my son's pizza deliver job, it wasn't my job so I said nothing.

      Then they came for my job, and no one was left to defend me.

      Alas you are thinking far too simply my friend. We are approaching a point where automation will potentially render a sizable portion of the population unemployable because a machine can do their job just as well, if not better and for a lesser cost in a world where Humans Need Not Apply

      Unless you happy to be one of those roboenablers who are seeking to bring about the robotic apocalypse... in which case I say: "Well played sir!"

    3. Re:Cabbies can't win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they came for my son's pizza deliver job, it wasn't my job so I said nothing.

      Then they came for my job, and no one was left to defend me.

      Actually, they'd have to come for the lawyers before there would be no one left to defend you.

    4. Re:Cabbies can't win by tlambert · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then they came for my job, and no one was left to defend me.

      Alas you are thinking far too simply my friend. We are approaching a point where automation will potentially render a sizable portion of the population unemployable because a machine can do their job just as well, if not better and for a lesser cost in a world where Humans Need Not Apply

      So, instead, I became an artist, and lived off my Universal Basic Income, which was granted to me by the abundance created by automation of all the drudge jobs.

      Well, except for Bill, in Passaic New Jersey, who has to press the red "there are still humans on the planet, please keep the light on" button every morning so that the robot factories don't shut down. Bill also wants to be an artist, but, no, he has to press the red button once a day. He's very unhappy that he's the only human left with an actual job, but ... frankly, Bill has always been a whiner, ever since we took away his red Swingline Stapler.

      Unless you happy to be one of those roboenablers who are seeking to bring about the robotic apocalypse... in which case I say: "Well played sir!"

      I'll *happily* build the S.O.B.'s, at least until they get to the point where they can build themselves... I'll even buy Bill a new stapler.

    5. Re:Cabbies can't win by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      In my area, taxi licenses limit the number of vehicles rather than the number of drivers. There are many more people with taxi driving license than that there are taxi vehicles and taxi licenses, so most drivers rent their vehicle with license on a per-shift basis and many vehicles will be used for two shifts a day (out of three total). So automated cars won't make much of a difference in number of taxis on the road.

    6. Re:Cabbies can't win by khallow · · Score: 1

      Alas you are thinking far too simply my friend. We are approaching a point where automation will potentially render a sizable portion of the population unemployable because a machine can do their job just as well, if not better and for a lesser cost in a world where Humans Need Not Apply

      I suppose we could be approaching such a situation. But I'll believe it when we act like that's happening. Instead, I see the societies with these job problems doing a lot of stuff to discourage employment. Guess what? When you punish someone for employing people, then they employ less people. Maybe we ought to do something about that first before hand wringing about the robotic apocalypse?

  8. It's a non-issue. by Ichijo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem of congestion caused by people circling around looking for parking has already been solved. Cities simply have to wake up to the fact that parking is both rivalrous and excludable and therefore neither a public good nor should be treated as one.

    --
    Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    1. Re:It's a non-issue. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better solution: Mandate that businesses (and by that, I mainly mean developers) provide enough parking for their projected number of customers and employees. If that means property owners have to build first-floor parking with buildings on top, fine. If they have to set aside one chunk every block for a parking garage, fine. But pass the law. Then phase out street parking completely over the course of ten years or so, leaving only a few handicapped spots along one side of every other street.

    2. Re:It's a non-issue. by Ichijo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Better solution: Mandate that businesses (and by that, I mainly mean developers) provide enough parking for their projected number of customers and employees

      Do you mean build so much parking that there's never a shortage when the price is zero? That's actually a very bad idea, because the economically optimal number of parking spaces is the number where MR=MC. This means wherever the cost of providing a parking space is not zero, the lost revenue from not providing it should also be nonzero. In other words, in an unpriced parking lot, it's financially optimal for it to get filled up completely at times. For a very similar reason, if you never miss a flight, you're spending too much time at the airport.

      No, rather than micromanaging the number of parking spaces, it's better to decide what is the problem you're trying to solve, and give the businesses freedom to decide how to solve it. Is the problem that their parking lots are filling up completely? Then simply require that their parking lots never fill up completely.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    3. Re:It's a non-issue. by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      Free parking leads to tragedy of the commons? Whenever I go to downtown SF, I note a few parking garages that are easy to enter and exit. And I accept that I will have to pay $20 or more to park there. I never never think of finding free parking as takes a lot of time, increases my anger, increases chances of traffic collision or worse hitting a person. Yes, parking can be expensive in SF but I usually be spending a lot more of wherever I am doing in that city. Phew, at least I don't have to work there.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
  9. Some will. Some won't. by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But think about other changes as well.

    Autonomous cars can be parked a lot closer than any cars that need to open doors to let people out. So think about a few parking garages advertising "robot rates" and cutting the parking stalls down to car-size+3-inches-on-three-sides. The cars drop off their human passengers and then pack themselves into the robot garages.

    Alternatively, if you're worried about someone soiling your pristine car, then charge enough to have it professionally cleaned before you want it back. And insist that the customers pay electronically so that you know EXACTLY who the offender was.

    1. Re:Some will. Some won't. by currently_awake · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Put the parking underground, far from anywhere. You can just signal your car when you want a ride. And put the roads underground in the cities too. The price of the real estate you free up for better use makes this worth the money. And you want a private car? Have the passenger cabin a detachable module. You get your "own" car without the expense of all the frame/suspension/tires/motors/batteries. And for long road trips you can put your cabin onto a gas car. You could probably work out some sort of turbo-lift system, so you step into your pod like it was an elevator, then it goes where you want.

    2. Re:Some will. Some won't. by edcheevy · · Score: 1

      It may take a while, but the benefits are so great that we'll eventually get out of the personal car mindset. Think about it - eventually there will be no need for parking spaces. If all the cars on the road are shared for-hire, estimates are we will need only a tenth as many cars to meet demand (think 1 automated car running at 100% capacity vs. 10 cars running at 10%). All the cars available during peak hours will be driving, none of them will be parked. During off-peak times (say 4am) the automated cars can just settle down and park on the unused highway lanes or the side of the road. Who needs garages and parking anymore? City density will rocket up as those spots get turned into more housing and office space.

    3. Re:Some will. Some won't. by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      this article and the comments have nothing to do with automated cars. replace "automated" with carshare. you get to the same place. we don't need a brave new technological world, our current one works fine for what we want to accomplish.

    4. Re:Some will. Some won't. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      replace "automated" with carshare. you get to the same place.

      No you don't. Zipcar and other carshare services are not the same. They don't come when summoned, you have to go to them, which means they only work in dense cities. They cannot transport people that can't drive, like children, blind people, or the elderly. They cannot park themselves. They have none of the safety advantages. You can't take a nap during your commute.

    5. Re:Some will. Some won't. by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      ok, I mean lyft/uber/sidecar type of services. not zipcar.

    6. Re:Some will. Some won't. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      ok, I mean lyft/uber/sidecar type of services. not zipcar.

      80-90% of the cost of these services is paying the driver. SDCs should be far cheaper. Uber is not cheaper than owing a private car. SDCs should be. That will be a game changer.

    7. Re:Some will. Some won't. by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And put the roads underground in the cities too. The price of the real estate you free up for better use makes this worth the money.

      Even if excavation and construction was cheap (it isn't) - the cost of moving all the infrastructure located beneath the streets would make this scheme cost prohibitive. And the real estate thus freed up would be pretty much useless because you wouldn't be able to build anything significant on top of it.

    8. Re:Some will. Some won't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So long as I can keep my pod in my living room, and have my favourite arm chair move and put me into it when I press a big red button. Otherwise, this whole scheme will fail ;-)

    9. Re:Some will. Some won't. by ausekilis · · Score: 1

      Please, won't somebody think of the poor dealership model? I mean, they need their insane markups and cuddle time with government officials too!

    10. Re:Some will. Some won't. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      This. Whoever modded the GP up clearly doesn't have a clue what the costs of moving shit underground are.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    11. Re:Some will. Some won't. by David_Hart · · Score: 2

      Those of us in the Boston do... It wasn't called the Big Dig for nothin'... It ended up costing about $24 billion and that was just for a few tunnels and a couple of bridges. Just imagine what it would cost to move all of the parking and streets underground.

      It would be kind cool if it could be done because all of the above ground streets could be torn up and turned into walkable green spaces. But it just isn't feasible today. One day, when we have totally automated construction robots, maybe. But not any time soon.

  10. Sim City by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember playing Sim City and always having traffic jams.

  11. the economics will for these... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    All you guys say this will never happen or that we like our cars too much.. This is GOING to happen.. Uber pays out 75% in labor and the econommics probablem get better than that with scale.. what happens when a $10 cab ride turns into an under $2 ride? Cheaper than the city bus for petes sake..

    Why would I even bother owning and maintaining a car for general use when it's actually going to be much cheaper and less hastle to just call automated cabs..

    4 rides a day x 30 days would be under $200.. shit we pay more than that just for parking in downtown Portland per month let alone the costs of the vehicle /

    1. Re:the economics will for these... by TWX · · Score: 1

      I suspect that Uber is only cheap because they're trying to steal market-share. They're going to want profit and prices will go up once they're indispensable.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:the economics will for these... by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      There's not really much overhead for Uber, uber runs a couple of servers in the cloud, employs a small army of developers, and then operates a field office in each market. Eventually the army of developers will dwindle to a skeleton maintenance staff, and field offices are simply required for how things work, but their overhead long term is going to be very, very low.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    3. Re:the economics will for these... by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      their overhead long term is going to be very, very low.

      how convenient, when they eventually get sued out of business, there will be no assets for the victims

  12. Talk about reinventing the wheel... by superdude72 · · Score: 1

    Do you know what else doesn't need to park? A normal taxi. A bus or a subway car. The extent that suburban Americans will go to avoid taking public transit is nothing short of amazing. Yes, let's spend trillions to develop a network of driverless cars so suburbanites can enjoy city life without coming into contact with any of the city's grubby inhabitants.

    1. Re: Talk about reinventing the wheel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a strong desire to keep the level of convenience or increase it. If a subway could pick me up from my driveway and drop me off at my office I would be all for it. I agree that is not feasible, so automate my already accounted for vehicle please.

    2. Re:Talk about reinventing the wheel... by JDLazarus · · Score: 1

      It's not public transit that I want to avoid. It's the decrease in personal time you experience from public transit. My daily commute is 30/45 minutes (motorcycle/car). It requires 7 turns. It costs me 1.3/2.3 gallons of fuel (motorcycle/car), which comes out to $4.81-$8.51 Oil and tires end up pretty close to the same whether it's the motorcycle or the sports car, about $1.75 and $1.80. The grand total is about $12/day for the car and $8.35/day for the motorcycle - a healthy 3/2 mix of those means about $10/day. My commute is 26 miles each way.

      My commute via public transit involves a walk, a light rail, a train, and a bus, and another walk. If I miss any one of these, my commute increases by 15-20 minutes. If one breaks down, my commute increases by at least 15-20 minutes. The total time taken for this additional inconvenience is nearly 2 hours (each way), and it costs $9.25 each direction - $8.50 per day more than my car, and $10.15 more than my motorcycle. (Granted, the cost can be alleviated by getting a monthly pass for $250/month - about $11.67/day). I don't even *think* about the seats in these vehicles. This is entirely about my time and my money. I have 2.5-3 hours more to spend with my family and $1.67 less cost each day that I don't take public transit. Over the course of a month, that's 53-63 hours and $35.75.

      Taxis would cost me about $200 per day, so there's another option that straight up doesn't work.

      If public transit could be made more affordable and time efficient I'd certainly consider it, but as it stands, it just doesn't make any sense.

    3. Re:Talk about reinventing the wheel... by JDLazarus · · Score: 1

      I'd also add that with my car, I can take lunch breaks further away, find a route to anywhere along my route quickly, change my plans without having to figure out schedules for transit, and can even head home well after midnight on a Friday night... Public transit simply does not provide the level of freedom a personal vehicle does.

    4. Re:Talk about reinventing the wheel... by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      unless you are asserting that everyone else has exactly the same commute as you, it's pretty common knowledge that a single data point is not going to provide much insight into a problem with over two hundred million samples

    5. Re:Talk about reinventing the wheel... by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Try getting anywhere in suburbia on most transit systems on a Sunday. I went on about 30km and it took 2.5 hours. That is at most a 40 minute drive. I think I'll drive when I can.

    6. Re:Talk about reinventing the wheel... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      US-style suburbia and public transport don't go well together. If you'd use another name for public transport, mass transit, and you can immediately see why.

      It's the last mile problem. The only way it COULD work is to have a frequent bus route passing by main roads stopping at convenient central points, and automated cars to get the people from those stops to and from their homes, which in general will be too far to just walk.

    7. Re:Talk about reinventing the wheel... by Iamthecheese · · Score: 1

      Public transport in the US is a sad, sorry state, but blaming people who drive is stupid.

      • The busses in pretty much any US city don't exist, run up to an hour late, are filthy, require up to an hour waiting just to be sure you can catch the bus, and/or are insufficient in number.
      • Regulatory capture keeps the rail industry barely alive with passenger lines several hundred miles apart in many, many places. Hell, if it weren't for war hawks supporting infrastructure in the cold war the US passenger rail system probably wouldn't even exist.
      • US cities are far apart relative to European countries. Therefore the economics are completely different. In particular it makes a lot more sense in the US to run four airplanes and a few hundred cars between two cities on a regular basis than to pay for the upkeep of such a long railroad.
      • Car ownership is a rite of passage in the US. Getting a license is one's first taste of freedom. In Japan you step outside, wait 5 minutes, a taxi will pass. In the US you have to call one and wait, and it's even more expensive. In the UK you walk two blocks to your train station. In the US? That's a laugh. In India and China cheap labor provides bicycle cabs. My point is, culturally in the US a car is just how people get around and that's okay!

      To change from a car culture in the US to use of public transportation would cost many billions of dollars, a major shift in values, and reducing or eliminating the influence of lobbyists. So sure, blame me as a driver. Because it's my fault that driving my 20 year old car costs half what I would pay for taxi's. Because I don't want to sit on someone's wank stain. Because taking a bus would require walking 8 blocks each way and waiting an hour and a half each time. Because the nearest railroad is on the other side of my city. Because the grocery store within walking distance costs three times as much for the same basket of goods. Yup, I don't care about any of that. The real reason I drive a car is that I want things a little warmer.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    8. Re:Talk about reinventing the wheel... by JDLazarus · · Score: 1

      Certainly not everyone does, but I know a number of individuals who have similar or further commutes than myself. The South Bay is full of commutes of similar length.

      Even with just the light rail and a commute half the length, the numbers work out similar proportionally. The cars are near the same cost (often less), the bike much less to drive, there's a time saving with driving yourself, the vehicle is more convenient, and provides a greater level of personal freedom. The downside is that sometimes there's traffic. I'm fine if others want to start taking autonomous taxis everywhere, or run around on public transit, but I don't see myself joining that. I actually enjoy driving (even in traffic) too much to give up the sensation and the freedom it offers.

      The argument here was against the point that people don't want to take public transit because it's icky. I think certainly it's a factor, but it's not the primary one for most people I know - it's time inefficiency.

  13. Another Cure by JimSadler · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why is it that authorities are so ignorant that they allow projects to be built when a traffic and parking issue is obvious. For example an apartment house might have to meet a basic legal requirement of having four parking spaces per rental unit if they are one or two bedroom units and six spaces for three bedroom units. A theater that seats 1,000 should be required to provide parking for 1,500 cars. I am astounded that building and zoning commissions fail to demand adequate parking for every enterprise. Those parking spaces should also have a standard size for each car and none of the super tight parking allowed at all.

    1. Re:Another Cure by Shados · · Score: 1

      Cities have that. But then there's the whole bribing ecosystem that messes everything up.

    2. Re:Another Cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cities are actually demanding less parking spaces. Here in Ottawa, Canada a condo unit is going up by me. The city may not approve it unless they reduce the number of spaces available. This is to reduce traffic and encourage public transit. The city is rezoning to build up and not spread out for the same reasons.

    3. Re:Another Cure by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      I'm a little curious as to in what universe you live in which each person brings 1.5 cars to the movie theater. Or four cars for a 1 bedroom apartment?

    4. Re:Another Cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err step outside? Some people are really obese

    5. Re:Another Cure by FranTaylor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a little curious as to in what universe you live in which each person brings 1.5 cars to the movie theater.

      They need enough room in the parking lot to hold two theater's worth of people, unless you expect the lot to empty and fill instantaneously between shows.

    6. Re:Another Cure by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      Cities have that. But then there's the whole bribing ecosystem that messes everything up.

      it's those stupid humans again, the alien overloads will make you much happier

    7. Re:Another Cure by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      But they aren't loading & unloading all of the theaters simultaneously, nor are they at peak capacity for all their theaters - maybe a few theaters for the new summer blockbuster, but not all of them simultaneously. (Each theater seats maybe a hundred or two hundred people).

      Requiring each business to be able to provide parking for their absolute maximum capacity 24/7 is a good way to make operating any business in the city much more expensive. Peak usage times for a laundromat is not the same as the peak usage for the theater, nor the same as restaurants. Much of your parking is going to be laying unused most of the time! You've wasted a lot of (valuable) real estate just marking off empty car areas.

      If you're going to require a certain amount of parking (most cities do have thresholds, they're just not 1.5 * maximum capacity), you should require less than maximum utilization, to take advantage of de-synced demand (i.e: the same spot will be used by a laundromat patron at 2pm, a family dining at 6pm, and a couple seeing a film at 9pm).

    8. Re:Another Cure by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Most people don't go to a theatre alone.

      It's pretty fair to assume average two people per car, a children's show will have more (mummy, daddy, kid(s) all in a single car). So for that 1,000-people theatre you would need some 750 car park spaces to handle everyone coming by car (why not put it closer to a railway station, for example?) and have half a car park excess to handle the between-shows part.

    9. Re:Another Cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parking minimums have been determined to be a bad idea - They promote sprawl and increases property prices (because now every property has to include land to park x cars)

    10. Re:Another Cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus employees and, if a live theater, actors.

    11. Re:Another Cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a little curious as to in what universe you live in which each person brings 1.5 cars to the movie theater.

      They need enough room in the parking lot to hold two theater's worth of people, unless you expect the lot to empty and fill instantaneously between shows.

      And people who live in apartments are allowed to have guests visit.

    12. Re:Another Cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a little curious as to in what universe you live in which each person brings 1.5 cars to the movie theater.

      They need enough room in the parking lot to hold two theater's worth of people, unless you expect the lot to empty and fill instantaneously between shows.

      You really think there's EVER that much interesting to see these days? :)

  14. The High Cost of Free Parking by dumky2 · · Score: 1

    Donald Shoup wrote a book on parking and its effects. In cities, lots of cars are circling for parking spots...

    --
    These comments are mine; I do not speak for my employer.
    1. Re:The High Cost of Free Parking by taustin · · Score: 1

      The solution to that is for cities to require businesses (and apartments and condo complexes) to provide enough parking off-street. The contract between Los Angeles (where you can expect to pay $20 for valet, or drive around possibly for hours looking for a spot in front of a meter) and Orange County (where pretty much all businesses have enough parking to handle their customer traffic) is stark. Aside from the frustration factor finding parking, there is a big difference in driving patterns, at least a lot of which is due to people creeping down the street hoping for a spot.

    2. Re:The High Cost of Free Parking by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      The solution to that is for cities to require businesses (and apartments and condo complexes) to provide enough parking off-street.

      This is called "making things worse" unless you also account for the increased traffic flow from residential neighborhoods onto the freeways when you convert all the single family houses into multple unit condos.

  15. Another thought... by singularity · · Score: 3, Informative

    A lot of people are complaining that they do not like the idea of sharing vehicles.

    What about thinking about it this way - suddenly proximity of your parking spot to where you are is a lot less important. Your personal autonomous vehicle drops you off at your destination and then goes to find a parking spot. Then, when your waiter brings you the check (for example), you let your vehicle know to come pick you up in ten minutes. The vehicle checks current traffic levels and leaves for a just-in-time pickup.

    Before you go to bed you let your autonomous vehicle know what time you want to get to work. Your vehicle looks at the average commute time for that time of day and lets you know when it will pick you up. It leaves its parking spot with enough time to get you.

    The drawback to this that you are spending money to pay for gas or electricity while your vehicle drives (empty) to a parking spot. I would say this is the price you pay for wanting your own vehicle. The alternative is a taxi-style service.

    For everyone complaining that other people will make the car unusable, you might not have taken a cab recently. More often than not it seems like you are video recorded. In addition, the cab company (which I assume would be the same ones putting autonomous cabs on the street) would have a vested interest in keeping vehicles clean.

    I used ZipCar for several years and reporting damage or a messy car was easy for the company to follow up on. The previous user had to have reserved the vehicle and paid for its use. The company has credit card on file already, it is easy enough to go after the user for damages.

    --
    - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
    1. Re:Another thought... by taustin · · Score: 2

      What about thinking about it this way - suddenly proximity of your parking spot to where you are is a lot less important. Your personal autonomous vehicle drops you off at your destination and then goes to find a parking spot. Then, when your waiter brings you the check (for example), you let your vehicle know to come pick you up in ten minutes. The vehicle checks current traffic levels and leaves for a just-in-time pickup.

      And then it turns out that the waiter is an idiot, and takes 20 minutes to get your credit card back to you, while your car is idling by the front door, with a ticket on the windshield.

      Not that I necessarily disagree with the basic idea, but the reality is that you'll tell your car to come pick you up as you walk to the door, and stand out front and wait until it gets there. There are convenience trade-offs no matter what you do.

    2. Re:Another thought... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It used to be "Why would anyone need a computer?", and then personal computers became a thing. Now, the original question is back -- why would anyone need a computer when you can have a smartphone and a virtualized cloud service. Well, the answer is, for many things, you don't need your own computer, but it is nicer to have your own computer.

      These companies are doing the same, thinking you don't need a car, you just need access to one, that car only needs to be yours when you need it to be. Well, the answer is, for many things, you don't need your own car, but it is nicer to have your own car.

    3. Re:Another thought... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh yes because the car itself wouldn't know the laws of the road and would be violating them all the time.... Not a programmer I take it?

    4. Re:Another thought... by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      > For everyone complaining that other people will make the car unusable

      They aren't using their brain. We live in a world where technology, ironically, solved this already and has it in practice through our temporary proxy, Uber. You have to have an app/ID and can flag cars as unacceptable. Flagged cars avoid you for pickup and you re-queue. 3 flaggings and the car is sent to service. Done.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    5. Re:Another thought... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      but the reality is that you'll tell your car to come pick you up as you walk to the door, and stand out front and wait until it gets there. There are convenience trade-offs no matter what you do.

      This of course in contrast with the current situation where upon arriving at the restaurant instead of getting off and let the car find a place to wait for you (aka a parking spot), you drive around the parking lot looking for a spot, manoeuvre it in, walk all the way back to the restaurant.

      Then when you finish you have the choice of calling your car and waiting a few minutes for it to arrive at the door step, instead of having to walk all the way to your car, hoping to remember well where exactly you left it, make your way out of the parking area, pay the parking fee (instead of having this billed automatically), and finally you're on your way.

      Of course in manual car situation you also have to remember to give that great wine a pass as you still have to drive...

      I think the automated car option is still the far more convenient one.

    6. Re:Another thought... by houghi · · Score: 1

      I do not think there will be one single solution.

      The cleanliness I experience with car sharing is way better than what I did with my own car. It is also cheaper (depending on the miles you do). I doubt it will reduce traffic, as most cars are standing still somewhere. People who are on the road will not reduce.

      I believe it could be a great solution between public transport and private owned cars. The disadvantage of public transport is the tme from door to door.

      An example: I live 25KM from work. Due to trafix it would take 1.5 hours.
      When I look at the train; it would take 25 minutes. However I need to get to the train and from the train to where I am. I also need to start working at a specific time. So those 25 minutes turn into 1 hour. And I am mucky, as I have a train every 15 minutes.

      The reason is that there need to be many people on a train to make it work. Autonomous cars could take 4 people from the same place to the same place. This could reduce travel time by 25% or 15 minutes to the hour.

      OTOH when I now want to go shopping, I need to add 20 minutes to get to the car and back. Autonomous cars would solve that as well.

      So it could be a great in between. Over a whole I am extremely happy with the amout of money I save with http://cambio.be/ The cars are newer, cleaner and better maintained then my car was since I drove it out of the dealership.

      It is a great addition to what you have, it does not need to be a replacement (perhaps for your second car it can be)

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    7. Re:Another thought... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Shared car services do not work for people with young children. Young kids need their car seats and they usually have some toys or something in the car to keep them entertained and comfortable. There is no way parents are going to haul around a car seat and spend the 5 minutes to install it and remove it every time they need to go somewhere.

  16. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by TWX · · Score: 2

    I've speculated on this before...

    I expect that subscribed-to sedan services will increase in popularity as a step above taxis. Paying more than a conventional taxi and giving the subscriber the ability to report/reject cars that are in poor condition will allows the service to charge and ban offenders that mess up cars. On top of that, there are services for school buses where an on-vehicle camera system records the trip to a local disk only and overwrites the recordings after so many days unless a report is made that the footage needs to be pulled before it's overwritten, at which time it's retrieved over-the-air when the vehicle comes in for regular service at the company's garage. That system would work relatively well for a subscription car if it doesn't catch audio and isn't pulled unless there's an actual reason to pull it (like vandalism or evidence that the interior was used for a crime) so long as such conditions are made clear from the beginning.

    Taxis will still be a thing, for either those that don't need a sedan often enough to justify paying for a subscription, or for those who cannot subscribe to a sedan service due to previous behavior. Used like a service they'd probably cost more, but used infrequently it wouldn't be that big of a deal. There would also be a greater likelihood of recordings being reviews more frequently.

    Private car ownership will continue for people like me that have plenty of room for parking and like you, don't want to share the vehicle with unknown others. I look forward to scenic road trips where I can look at the scenery instead of always having to drive, though I would probably want the option to drive. It would be convenient when going to congested places to be able to be dropped off and let the car go find a place to park itself, or even for the car to just go home if the per-mile cost (like for an electric) is low.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  17. Re:No, here's why: by TWX · · Score: 1

    If that were to become a regular problem, the law would change so that automakers would put the OBD port under the hood and the hood would be secured with fasteners like triple-square or something intentionally security-minded so that one couldn't access it without more time and tooling than is practical on the side of the street.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  18. Frickin Laser Beams by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Funny

    If the robot cabs are given laser beams and missile launchers they will. Boy will they ever.

    "HitchBot 2 - HitchBot's Back, And He's Pissed!!!!!" (not suitable for all audiences, extreme violence and some robot nudity)

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  19. Changing cities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They could change city life forever.

    Yeah, that's what was said at the time the Segway was introduced. That was 14 years ago. Nothings changed because of Segways, AFAICT.

  20. This. by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    my kid doesn't like buying used stuff because she says someone might have peed on it. If you're rich enough to matter your rich enough to have your own stuff.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:This. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my kid doesn't like buying used stuff because she says someone might have peed on it

      You have failed in every possible way as a parent.

  21. Simpler solution... by rockmuelle · · Score: 2

    Require more affordable parking in downtown areas.

    Seriously, I live in Austin and work downtown. Most days I bike to work. The days I do drive, I spend 20 minutes circling looking for a spot that won't cost me $15. Street parking is $1/hr. Lots are typically $10-12. Garages (the most convenient) are always $15-20. They're also never full.

    Cities should require all buildings have enough parking and set the rates to "reasonable" rather than "extortionate".

    -Chris

    1. Re:Simpler solution... by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

      Require more affordable parking in downtown areas.

      building out parking lots for peak demand is bad business, bad real estate usage, bad tax planning, just bad all around

      your situation is actually ideal, you should be punished for driving into downtown

    2. Re:Simpler solution... by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      Bad choice.

      Why should cities subsidize parking?

      Parking is an inefficient subsidized usage of valuable real estate.

      It might make some sense in suburbs, but it tends to be a subsidized inefficient use of land in urban centers.

      Try using transit or biking.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:Simpler solution... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Crazy they even allow street parking, and at such low levels.

      Besides, what is reasonable? Start with looking at what a shop or apartment in the area costs. With that calculate the real cost of a parking spot (plus the space of the access ways), and cost of maintenance of the place and so. Probably the prices currently charged are pretty reasonable (except for the street parking prices).

    4. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Require more affordable parking in downtown areas.

      Seriously, I live in Austin and work downtown. Most days I bike to work. The days I do drive, I spend 20 minutes circling looking for a spot that won't cost me $15. Street parking is $1/hr. Lots are typically $10-12. Garages (the most convenient) are always $15-20. They're also never full.

      Cities should require all buildings have enough parking and set the rates to "reasonable" rather than "extortionate".

      -Chris

      It would be better to double or triple the cost of on-street metered parking. Encourage the use of lots or garages for all-day parking, while encouraging the use of on-street parking for short-term needs.

  22. Re:No, here's why: by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

    By which time the cops will have been alerted by the OnStar-like tamper proofing alarm the insurers will insist on having installed, which could also quite easily photograph passengers and kill the ignition. In this scenario the only technology that doesn't already exist is the hack-my-cab device...

    --
    Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  23. Another goddamn "autonomous car" press release by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    These "autonomous car" flacks are really relentless. These stories always show up from an "anonymous reader" always in US prime time, always during the week (never on weekends) and always telling us how "autonomous cars" are going herald in the New Utopia.

    There's not even an attempt to include any news in the story, just pure PR.

    Even half-drunk and not paying attention I can see the pattern. Look for yourselves.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Another goddamn "autonomous car" press release by dargaud · · Score: 1

      They are not on sale, so why would a PR campaign be necessary...? I kinda fail to follow your reasoning; I find the possibilities interesting though. When I see how fast electric bikes are currently taking off in Europe with no advertisement, it wouldn't surprise me if autonomous vehicles take over in only a matter of years. Thinking about the consequences beforehand is not a bad thing.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    2. Re:Another goddamn "autonomous car" press release by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      They are not on sale, so why would a PR campaign be necessary...?

      Marketing can be much more broad than a specific available product. It's like those commercials from trade groups or chambers of commerce for entire sectors of an industry. I don't know if it happens a lot in Europe, but they're common here in the US.

      When I refer to "marketing", I'm including political and advocacy advertising. This is advocacy advertising.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Another goddamn "autonomous car" press release by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like they are actually showing up from "autonomous writer".

  24. Never park? by Moof123 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "The good news is that autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride."

    They will only give another person a ride during peak hours, say morning rush hours and evening hours. Mid-day traffic will be lighter, and middle of the night traffic will be downright dead. At those time these Johny Cabs still have to go somewhere. The Schisters trying make a buck will want them programmed to waste the least gas possible. So unlike human cabs that often troll around looking for a fare, these Johny Cabs are likely to park immediately at the closest free spot and wait for someone to call for a ride with their smart phone.

    Without enough regulation, these cabs may make parking matters worse, as they won't necessarily go back to home base every night if a few pennies can be saved on gas by parking near where they will be needed in the morning.

    1. Re:Never park? by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      That's easy to fix, charge demand-based overnight parking fees, adjust the fees to distribute the cars as needed.

    2. Re:Never park? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The simple change to fix this is to outlaw roadside parking. Considering the real estate prices in cities, it is unconscionable that car owners have their parking space paid for by the general public anyway.

    3. Re:Never park? by fgouget · · Score: 1

      They will only give another person a ride during peak hours, say morning rush hours and evening hours. Mid-day traffic will be lighter, and middle of the night traffic will be downright dead. At those time these Johny Cabs still have to go somewhere.

      Except that moving three people into town in the morning takes roughly 3 cars (the average number of passengers per car is 1.1), whereas a cab will be able to make multiple round-trips during the same time, thus carrying all three (roughly). So this will reduce the number of vehicles that need to park during low traffic periods. So either they remain marginal and make no difference (i.e don't make things worse), or they become popular and make it easier for everyone to park.

    4. Re:Never park? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The Schisters trying make a buck will want them programmed to waste the least gas possible.

      They will probably have the car move towards where a fare is likely to come from.

    5. Re:Never park? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      "The good news is that autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride."

      My first thought was is this different than what human piloted taxis currently do?

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    6. Re:Never park? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Huh? I thought we were talking about shared autonomous vehicles. Why would it take more SAVs than cabs to move a given number of people?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:Never park? by fgouget · · Score: 1

      Why would it take more SAVs than cabs to move a given number of people?

      I said nothing of the sort. I'm saying it takes fewer autonomous vehicles (or cabs but that's off-topic) than privately owned and operated cars to move a given number of people, and thus that this can reduce parking congestion (in addition to traffic).

    8. Re:Never park? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Thanks, my misunderstanding.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  25. Will any of these use "Johnny Cab?" by k6mfw · · Score: 1

    eom

    --
    mfwright@batnet.com
  26. Betteridges law of headlines. by mjwx · · Score: 1
    So no.

    But think about other changes as well.

    Autonomous cars can be parked a lot closer than any cars that need to open doors to let people out. So think about a few parking garages advertising "robot rates" and cutting the parking stalls down to car-size+3-inches-on-three-sides. The cars drop off their human passengers and then pack themselves into the robot garages.

    Again, I doubt it's going to happen as people dont want to have to wait in a line for 10 minutes at a designated pickup zone for their car to come when they can walk 2 minutes to go straight to their car.

    Alternatively, if you're worried about someone soiling your pristine car, then charge enough to have it professionally cleaned before you want it back. And insist that the customers pay electronically so that you know EXACTLY who the offender was.

    In the model they're talking about, you wont own the car. This another reason why their utopian vision will never come true. Personal car ownership is considered a right and necessity in many places.

    Autonomous cars will never be the traffic messiah people think they are. They wont be doing 200 MPH bumper to bumper because they'll be programmed to follow the road rules. They'll keep a 3 second gap, they'll never exceed the speed limit, they'll slow down for heavy traffic, pedestrians and inclement weather, they'll stop on an amber light, they'll let people in.

    A lot of people will retain manual control because they're used to breaking all these rules. Imagine the average driver with a "litte richard" fuming that their car just let some jerk into THEIR lane.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:Betteridges law of headlines. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      people dont want to have to wait in a line for 10 minutes at a designated pickup zone for their car to come

      You have to wait for taxis because they are FIXED PRICE. If you don't want to wait for a SDC, just order the premium no-wait service. It will still be far cheaper than owning your own private car, which on average spend 96% of their time parked.

    2. Re:Betteridges law of headlines. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      They'll keep a 3 second gap, they'll never exceed the speed limit,...

      I'm curious how they'd do in rush hour traffic. Leaving more than a two car length gap, here in the DC area, just means some jackass is going to pull in between you and the vehicle ahead, forcing you to back off more. Oh, and God help them if they're hogging the left lane doing the speed limit...they better have cameras at all angles because people are gonna go apeshit and stuff will be flying their way.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  27. No alaska will get the traffic jam by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Funny

    when thousands of unconscious drunk people, faces covered in felt marker writing wake up and stumble out of their cabs and collectively ask where the hell am I. And the cab says "Anchorage Alaska, that'll be $1500.00 for the ride."
    At least there will be enough cabs to take them home right there.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:No alaska will get the traffic jam by Ostrich25 · · Score: 2

      You're in a JohnnyCab!

    2. Re:No alaska will get the traffic jam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get your ass to Mars.

    3. Re:No alaska will get the traffic jam by coofercat · · Score: 1

      My ass doesn't like to fly. My donkey is up for it though (so long as he gets an aisle seat).

  28. Find a parking before you drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Use internet to reserve parking : if you can not find a parking, dont drive.

    changing the habit can make big different.

  29. Re:Death Race 9000+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't wait for the hack kits for these autonomous cars to be posted online. Can you imagine the sheer carnage resulting from programming 20,000 cars to seek at the same time the same primo parking spaces in front of the Chipotle's restaurant on 15th and to park there NO MATTER WHAT? Can you imagine it!? Glorious.

    Facetious as this post is and given the ease at which cars are found to be hackable over remote connections, AC is highlighting what is going to be a real problem with drive by wire vehicles in the future.

  30. Until something goes wrong by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    And a cyclist or small child dies.

    Look, are robot cabs useful for: a. drunk people, b.disabled people (tremors, surgery, conditions), c. people with impaired vision or slow reactions (especially older people)?

    Probably yes.

    However, where we allow them and where they can operate might be different than for other cars.

    And the first small child that dies it's lawsuit city, and they will never, ever, ever give up.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Until something goes wrong by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      And a cyclist or small child dies.

      Look, are robot cabs useful for: a. drunk people, b.disabled people (tremors, surgery, conditions), c. people with impaired vision or slow reactions (especially older people)?

      Probably yes.

      However, where we allow them and where they can operate might be different than for other cars.

      And the first small child that dies it's lawsuit city, and they will never, ever, ever give up.

      Humans behind the wheel kill over 30,000 people every year.

      Only clint eastwood's empty chair says that robots must be perfect drivers.

      The rest of us will be very happy if robots only kill 10,000 a year, and humans kill zero.

    2. Re:Until something goes wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And once one of those flying nightmares crashes with all souls lost, well, then, then its lawsuit city I! It just ain't natural, I tell ya, a man up in the air. Good thing no one will be crazy enough to fly in one, no siree. A steamship was good enough for my pappy, it's good enough for me!

    3. Re:Until something goes wrong by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Humans can go to jail.

      Thank you for proving my point.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  31. I'm sure I've seen this before by furgle · · Score: 2

    Now the thing is personal automated vehicles, even one per two people would still be a lot of wasted space, if the vehicles were a tiny 3m long the population density over 100m would be only 66 people assuming bumper to bumper. How about if it carried 30 -50 people in a vehicle 15m long, the population density over 100m would be between 200 - 330 people also assuming bumper to bumper. It would cause less congestion.

    Of course that would mean that the vehicles would not go exactly to everyone's destination, but on routes that were suited to almost all passengers, you may have to walk. There could be multiple routes to common areas that people went, and passengers could change from route to route as required.

    Of course it would not be as comfortable, but a 15 metre vehicle that carries 30-50 people and doesn't need to park anywhere but just drop people off at their destination and continue on its route for others would surely reduce congestion far more.

    I can't believe its taken this long to come up with such an idea.

    1. Re:I'm sure I've seen this before by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

      How about if it carried 30 -50 people in a vehicle 15m long, the population density over 100m would be between 200 - 330 people also assuming bumper to bumper. It would cause less congestion.

      Yeah here on planet earth we call these things "the commuter rail", hundreds and hundreds of them take passengers into the train station every day, avoiding traffic and alleviating congestion.

      I can't believe its taken this long to come up with such an idea.

      Then you are gonna have a really hard time with the reality that these devices are already moving at well over 100 mph, in New Jersey, of all places.

    2. Re:I'm sure I've seen this before by furgle · · Score: 1

      I was actually talking about buses, sarcastically.In some places in popular culture they are considered a cause of congestion, mostly because of their size and frequent stopping. Although compared to the robot cabs, its far better.

    3. Re:I'm sure I've seen this before by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I think we need a sarcasm tag for stuff like the bus thing from "furgle" that appears to have been misinterpreted as being serious.

  32. Re:No, here's why: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Call autonomous cab.
    Cab shows up, you get in.
    You plug your little hack-my-cab device into the debug port after removing some panels.
    The car is now yours.

    Huh. Another AC post that focuses on the recent development of modern cars that are hackable by remote and which will surely be a problem with autonomous vehicles in the future is down modded. Why? In what way is the post trolling or inflammatory?

  33. It'll never happen - TOO LATE! by TiggertheMad · · Score: 1

    Quite simply, it's not going to happen. Lol, it has already happened. You already have multiple car companies that will lease you cars for short periods of time, and the only difference is that they get parked at a drop point between customers. If the economics of owning your own car in a dense city prohibits people from owning their own cars, this will become one of the transportation models that will be widely used. Also, if you are speaking toward this never working for the public transportation, you are also wrong, since this is just basically a city bus that you don't have to share with other people. People have been using public buses for a long time.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
    1. Re:It'll never happen - TOO LATE! by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Auto-share is a different beast than automated-share. With auto-share you have a company handling the details of insurance/transactions/fixing problems/cleaning and so on. You also have the ability to exclude people from the market entirely due to there being only a few companies in any one city. The automated-share the individual would have to handle all of that or pay someone to handle it for them. The former is a huge barrier for the limited profit and the later cuts into the limited profit and is essentially just auto-share where you loan your car to the company instead of them outlaying the capital costs.

  34. Re:Another thought... sharing robot cars by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    I think that sharing robot cars might work for group homes for disabled people, and retirement communities. And even university student communities.

    There you have people without a high demand for cars, but who might find the convenience of having a robot car available of great utility.

    Like party hopping or going shopping.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  35. Re:No, here's why: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All you need is a smartphone now. No cables required.

  36. Re:Death Race 9000+ by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    Can you imagine the sheer carnage resulting from programming 20,000 cars to seek at the same time the same primo parking spaces in front of the Chipotle's restaurant

    Facetious as this post is and given the ease at which cars are found to be hackable over remote connections, AC is highlighting what is going to be a real problem with drive by wire vehicles in the future.

    So you've never seen human drivers exhibit the same behavior? Have you ever tried to park at Trader Joe's or Market Basket only to find that there are no parking spaces available at all, only people trolling around looking for parking? Who is responsible for this bug that causes more cars to arrive than there are parking spaces?

  37. Re:Death Race 9000+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's 20,000 cars that have been hijacked remotely to go to one location to park in one spot and to do so at high speed, hence the carnage. The point isn't about parking, its about the susceptibility of computer controlled cars to be hacked as was recently demonstrated http://www.wired.com/2015/07/jeep-hack-chrysler-recalls-1-4m-vehicles-bug-fix/

  38. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It'll remain an option, just more expensive as economy-of-scale slips. Some people give more-than-zero fucks about Seinfeldian hygiene, and some people give none at all. We're all Very Special in some way.

  39. vehicle ownership fetish by FranTaylor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Decades of television brainwashing have convinced people to needlessly blow their paychecks on oversized overpowered motor vehicles. The military industrial complex continues to justify its existence by generating ever larger profits. The brainwashed masses plaster their vehicles with "patriotic" symbols, with the massive irony that their fuel purchases are destabilizing world politics and giving aid and comfort to those who wish us harm. The irony is lost, because the urge to own the biggest and most wasteful vehicle on the block is strong, the brainwashing is effective.

    1. Re:vehicle ownership fetish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enough with the anti-car bullshit. You seem to post nothing else!

      Evidently another non-driver who hates the fact that some people enjoy something they can't understand.

    2. Re:vehicle ownership fetish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, you know, people need to get to their fucking jobs. I live in a suburb of the most populous city in Texas and I work pretty close to downtown. There isn't a single place close to my office that has a decent yard for my kid and dogs that doesn't also cost over a million dollars or isn't in the middle of gangland.

    3. Re:vehicle ownership fetish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Decades of television brainwashing have convinced people to needlessly blow their paychecks on oversized overpowered motor vehicles. The military industrial complex continues to justify its existence by generating ever larger profits. The brainwashed masses plaster their vehicles with "patriotic" symbols, with the massive irony that their fuel purchases are destabilizing world politics and giving aid and comfort to those who wish us harm. The irony is lost, because the urge to own the biggest and most wasteful vehicle on the block is strong, the brainwashing is effective.

      People buy the more powerful models because they enjoy them and they're not really that common, if you actually know anything about various car models you'll notice that the majority on the road are the most basic trim types with the smallest engine available for that particular car. I rarely seen anyone else driving the 3.5L version of my car, it's usually the 2.5L version and I see at least a couple of them a day. Most of those muscle cars you see on the road are the V6 base models as well, learn to read the trim tags and what they mean rather than assuming that everyone is cruising around with a big block V8 under the hood.

  40. Rush hour. by westlake · · Score: 2

    The good news is that autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride. They could change city life forever.

    Of all people who commute to work in New York City, 41% use the subway, 24% drive alone, 12% take the bus, 10% walk to work, 2% travel by commuter rail, 5% carpool, 1% use a taxi, 0.6% ride their bicycle to work, and 0.2% travel by ferry.

    There are 13,237 taxis operating in New York City, not including over 40,000 other for-hire vehicles.

    Transportation in New York City

    If you need over 50,000 vehicles on the road daily to meet existing for-hire demands, how many robo-cabs would you need to provide 25% of the city's commuter services?

    The commuter car is by definition mostly idle between 9 in the morning and five in the afternoon and between six in the evening and seven in the morning.

    Parked.

    1. Re:Rush hour. by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      Parked.

      They don't have to be parked downtown in the middle of the city. They can sit all night and most of the day in remote lots, just outside of town, just like our commuter trains do today when they are not used. They won't be in the way at all and they won't be consuming expensive real estate when they are parked.

  41. Only possible with an integrated system by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    ... and how would you have one of those? Either you'd have to have a city monopoly that just ran all the cabs that way.

    You know how much you love riding on buses? Imagine if the people that brought you that lingering scent of urine everywhere you went decided to do taxi cabs as well.

    Exactly.

    If you gave it to one evil corporation... such as OCP... or OmniCorp... I don't know what they're called... but they're amazing:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    You'd at least have clean seats... though the rates are unlikely to be favorable because why should a corporation charge competitive rates if they have a monopoly?... and if you don't pay they'll probably rip your balls out through your nostrils.

    But if you don't do that either then you're going to get a cluster fuck... identical to what we have now.

    So... yawn.

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    1. Re:Only possible with an integrated system by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      You know how much you love riding on buses? Imagine if the people that brought you that lingering scent of urine everywhere you went decided to do taxi cabs as well.

      yeah we get it, you hate interacting with other people, you could have stopped there

    2. Re:Only possible with an integrated system by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      ... your species interacts by peeing on stuff? What are you... dog people?

      My species doesn't do that. For one thing our sense of smell isn't as acute as yours. We don't get that doubtless complex social signals that your kind gets from peeing on stuff.

      For us, it just smells bad... and dirty.

      A human being says "hey I don't like sitting in people's dried pee"... and a dog person from outer space says "peeing on stuff and smelling it is a time honored and culturally significant portion of my culture."

      https://youtu.be/IkfBflLg8gY?t...

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    3. Re:Only possible with an integrated system by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      My species doesn't do that.

      really? the actual evidence is that humans do urinate in public:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/16/nyregion/public-urination-in-new-york-becomes-test-case-for-policing.html

      "Last year, 28,609 people were cited for public urination, an offense that must be witnessed by an officer to be charged. "

      Guess what? On the east coast, the rich people take public transportation. If you want to see hundreds of millionaires gathered together in one spot, check out the commuter rail stations in Connecticut on a weekday morning. The cars in the parking lot are all lexus and mercedes benz, the suits are Armani, the jobs are on Madison Avenue. These people take public transportation, because it's really the only way to get there.

    4. Re:Only possible with an integrated system by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      So... I say my species doesn't communicate in pee... and you say "Some degenerate humans do pee in public"... this supports your position how?

      Anyway, most of that is due to there not being enough public restrooms or that the existing restrooms are not maintained.

      Which splits some of the responsibility with the city. Though honestly... gross.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  42. This is also done in San Francisco. by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Cities are actually demanding less parking spaces. Here in Ottawa, Canada a condo unit is going up by me. The city may not approve it unless they reduce the number of spaces available. This is to reduce traffic and encourage public transit. The city is rezoning to build up and not spread out for the same reasons.

    This is also done in San Francisco.

    Although, the reason is actually that they don't need the parking, because the building is going to remain mostly unoccupied.

    The way this works, is you buy a building with a certain theoretical value for rent per square foot, and then you don't rent it out, because no one will pay such an insane amount of rent, and so you get to write the "lost income" off your taxes. You generally have a holding company own the build, and own the holding company instead.

    Then you trade buildings like baseball cards with other billionaires, so that whoever is wiling to pay the most for a given tax writeoff gets to own the building that year. This lets you move assets and income around with relatively high liquidity, while at the same time taking the tax write-downs when they make the most sense. This works out because you're selling the company that owns the building, rather than selling the actual building, so the tax basis on the building never changes. Ain't Prop 13 great, if you are a beneficiary of the Kaiser Family Trust, and own enough commercial property?

    Usually, you build these tax shelters in areas that were previously parking lots, although in there's a nice spot that used to be a green area, you can usually bribe your way into replacing it with a building, as long as you (1) promise that it's a "green" building, (2) promise to put plants on the roof (eventually), and (3) promise to contribute to the "right" campaigns for some time into the future.

    It's very rare, but it occasionally happens that you have to also agree to build some low income housing somewhere, as well, usually some place highly undesirable, like over top of a Thorium Plume in the groundwater from an old General Atomics facility in the area that used to be the Navy Yard. But you can also write that off as part of your initial "sunk cost", so it's OK.

    P.S.: This is mostly not a joke; this is how it works, except everyone knows the General Atomics Thorium plume lives under the townhouse down in Mountain View, at the intersection of U.S. 85 and U.S. 101, which is why the deed covenants require that you let the EPA come in and examine the monitoring equipment in your downstairs no less than every two years.

    1. Re:This is also done in San Francisco. by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      This is also done in San Francisco.

      Although, the reason is actually that they don't need the parking, because the building is going to remain mostly unoccupied.

      What a steaming load of bullshit:

      "As of the fourth quarter of 2014, the vacancy rate in San Francisco stood at just 3.6%"

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/04/16/san-francisco-tops-forbes-2015-list-of-worst-cities-for-renters/

    2. Re:This is also done in San Francisco. by tlambert · · Score: 1

      This is also done in San Francisco.

      Although, the reason is actually that they don't need the parking, because the building is going to remain mostly unoccupied.

      What a steaming load of bullshit:

      "As of the fourth quarter of 2014, the vacancy rate in San Francisco stood at just 3.6%"

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/04/16/san-francisco-tops-forbes-2015-list-of-worst-cities-for-renters/

      Your article is talking about housing. I am talking about commercial office space. Vacancy rates for office space in both San Francisco and Silicon Valley in general are sitting around 13% as of April of this year:

      http://www.bizjournals.com/san...

      That's about 3.6X the vacancy rate for residential rentals.

      This is up from 11.36% office vacancy rates in San Francisco for mid 2012: http://nainorcal.com/SF_Office...

      You really *don not want* to invest in housing, since some idiot *WILL* rent that, and then you're stuck with controls on how quickly you are allowed to raise the rents on them. Commercial rents have no such controls, and therefore a lot less risk, if you need your tenants out so that you can intentionally lose money for tax purposes.

    3. Re:This is also done in San Francisco. by jittles · · Score: 1

      Ain't Prop 13 great, if you are a beneficiary of the Kaiser Family Trust, and own enough commercial property?

      Except that you're wrong. If you buy/trade a majority share of the company that owns commercial property then the tax basis is reassessed. While it is true Gallo family was able to avoid reassessment on some vineyards by having individual members of the family buy less than a 50% stake in the company that owned the property, this could easily be fixed. Prop 13 allows older people who are on a fixed income to continue to own their property. My parents would have to leave the state of California if prop 13 did not exist.

    4. Re:This is also done in San Francisco. by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Ain't Prop 13 great, if you are a beneficiary of the Kaiser Family Trust, and own enough commercial property?

      Except that you're wrong. If you buy/trade a majority share of the company that owns commercial property then the tax basis is reassessed. While it is true Gallo family was able to avoid reassessment on some vineyards by having individual members of the family buy less than a 50% stake in the company that owned the property, this could easily be fixed.

      Which is why you put the commercial property into a REIT, and then sell shares in the REIT, with strict limits on the transaction amounts to preclude majority shares being owned by a single company. Duh!

      Prop 13 allows older people who are on a fixed income to continue to own their property. My parents would have to leave the state of California if prop 13 did not exist.

      This was the stated intent of proper 13, and if the Kaiser Family Trust and several other large real estate investors, including one former California governor, had not lobbied for the inclusion of commercial property ("But think of housing rentals!") within the scope of prop 13 -- without limiting its inclusion *solely* to housing -- at the last minute, before the ballots went to press, we would not be in the current mess.

      This is, BTW, the same reason China has "ghost cities": they are warehousing value where it can not be taxed, and then trading it like trading cards.

  43. Moot Discussion by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    Until truly autonomous vehicles, I am not talking about lane following on highways, becomes a reality all discussions like this is navel gazing. It may take 20 or 30 years before it happens. The last 20% of the situations will take 80% of the programming to solve. We are nowhere close to completely autonomous vehicles.

  44. Uber spin by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    According to Uber they are an information system that only connects drivers with vehicles to people who want rides. By being an information company they are not bound by taxi laws. At least that is what they preach. Gladly many jurisdiction disagree.The second Uber purchases vehicles they become a taxi company and and lose the facade completely.

    1. Re:Uber spin by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      I don't doubt that they're effectively a taxi company, the difference is that their drivers aren't fucking awful to deal with. If Uber dropped out of my city, I'd go buy a car rather than deal with trying to get a taxi.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    2. Re:Uber spin by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      This is called the honeymoon phase. After dealing with idiots for a few years everyone changes.

  45. What about the outliers? by FrozenGeek · · Score: 1
    Waiting for an autonomous car near the city centre may not take long. But what happens when I visit a friend in the suburbs? The car drops me off and goes away. Then when I'm ready to go home, how long do I wait for a car to pick me up? If I own my own car, and if it doesn't go off to pick up someone else, my wait time to go home is nothing.

    Keep in mind that my time has value. The cumulative value of the time I wait could be significant over the course of a year.

    --
    linquendum tondere
    1. Re:What about the outliers? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      You will be able to request that the car stay around until you go back. It will cost you something, however.

    2. Re:What about the outliers? by neminem · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if you're visiting your friend in the suburbs, you probably also aren't going to have a problem parking.

      I'm not going to go to a time-rental model for cars completely, no matter how cheap/convenient they get, for exactly the reason you describe, plus I like having my own car I can fill up with stuff and then leave that stuff there and know it'll be there later.

      Still, there *are* also plenty of times driving yourself somewhere is not nearly as convenient (mostly due to parking considerations), so right now for those, the choice is driving anyway (inconvenient), public transportation (inconvenient for different reasons), or a taxi (crazy expensive). If robot cabs push down the price of a taxi significantly, that decision would skew heavily towards using a taxi for those specific instances, which would be *nice*. They're also exactly the instances the article describes where more people using taxis would help solve traffic congestion, so everyone wins.

  46. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by turbidostato · · Score: 1

    "Paying more than a conventional taxi and giving the subscriber the ability to report/reject cars that are in poor condition"

    Taxis are not already the standard in dense cities instead of owned cars mainly because they are too expensive and you say an even more expensive option would be the solution?

  47. Need more than just a better horse by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Instead of "robot cabs" how about something a bit bigger that fits more people - maybe run it on rails so it doesn't take much energy.
    Lots of little things going everywhere are going to clog the streets if they are robot or not because the control system is not the problem. Robot cabs are like trying to solve the 19th century horseshit problem with a better horse instead of using a different way to get around.
    So the answer, as it was in the 19th century, is to get the people who are going to the same places on some sort of mass transit and that frees things up for the people who are going to other places. It's only framed as a difficult problem because of evasion of responsibility and blame shifting.

  48. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you the type that won't handle money because someone else touched it before you, and maybe they didn't wash their hands first?

  49. Probably not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They will probably park to wait for the next rider, and many people will keep their cars because taxis are expensive, even if the robot is a bit cheaper

  50. In case this was NOT crystal clear to you... by tlambert · · Score: 1

    In case this was NOT crystal clear to you... this is NOT about building actual houses that anyone would ever want to live in, or commercial office space that anyone would ever consider renting, it's about dicking around with the income tax laws to shelter profits from taxation.

    This is also why you have to build such big-ass buildings: in order to hide your big-ass profits as paper losses.

  51. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by steve.cri · · Score: 1

    What are you afraid of, robot communists trying to pry your car key from your dead, cold hand? Car ownership like we have it today is an economical absurdity and an ecological disaster, and of course it will disappear one day. Not by decree but by necessity, no conspiracy will force you to sit in another man's vomit.

  52. well this is gonna thrill the blackcab drivers by ihtoit · · Score: 1

    they're still bitching abut Uber.

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  53. Why not start simpler? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've wondered why it is that people are working so hard on something so monumentally difficult as properly working and safe self-driving cars, while we still have so many train collisions.

    If we can't make safe self-driving trains that nearly drive themselves already, how can we do it with cars??

  54. samzenpus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just start your own damn blog if you want to talk about automated cars on a weekly basis.

  55. Solved problem by dell623 · · Score: 2

    Seriously? I don't get the hype over self driving cars, but this is nuts. Maybe just the article rather than the study, if there is one. We have practically or completely driverless transport. It's called public transport, and it costs a hell of a lot less than it would to deploy and accommodate useless driverless cars. It's a solved problem, many times over. Rail, underground rail, trams, light rail, busways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway), driverless trains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems) etc. The answer to fixing a problem involving hundreds of cars driving to the same place is not to take the driver out of the picture, it is to take the bloody cars out of the picture.

    Decent home shipping to save you from carrying your shopping home. That's the main reason people have for driving to malls. Get rid of it. It's a terrible reason, and lugging shopping home is no fun, even with a car.

    Most of the world is so far behind in what's possible with public transport, that's where research should focus on. Driverless cars matter about as much as rich tycoons taking joyrides into space.

  56. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

    >> autonomous cars don't need to park-- they just go give someone else a ride

    I'm hoping "autonomous cars != end of personal car ownership." I still like to have my own passenger compartment that no one else has eaten in, thrown up in, etc. that I can maintain to my own standard of hygiene.

    They will have to pry the steering wheel from my cold, dead hands. I actually enjoy driving. I look forward to long road trips because I will get to drive for an extended period (and probably not in traffic).

    --
    "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  57. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if it will be like manual transmissions. Many of us always said there will always be manual transmissions for people who care about driving. However in the US it is becoming very difficult to find cars with manual transmissions and technology is making it somewhat of an anachronism anyway. In the same way, I can see this becoming accepted over time until it is the norm.

    I used to think I was a diehard: my current car is automatic but I was desperate for a new vehicle at the time and couldn't find what I wanted, plus rationalized that most of my driving is in stop-n-go traffic anyway. However for my next car, I don't expect to care. It's irrelevant to electric cars, CVT, or cars with many gears. Even many enthusiast cars are just a variation on automatic transmissions where you can press a button to have less than optimal gearing.

  58. Wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. Self driving cars already exist. They're called taxis, they've been around for almost a century, and we still have traffic jams.

  59. Build footbridges and skywalks rather than tunnels by dcooper_db9 · · Score: 1

    Tunnels are expensive to build and to maintain. A network of footbridges, skywalks and elevated decks seems much more sensible. You completely separate foot traffic from vehicular traffic while recovering space that can be used for parking or for additional lanes.

    --
    I do not block ads. I do block third party scripts.
  60. DONKEY FUTURE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wide scale job losses...

    Billionaires getting richer...

    Soon, the whole economy will be based on just the 1%... the unjamming will be a side effect

  61. Really? I disagree.... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    My experience, here in the DC metro area, is people take public transportation precisely because it's the most cost-effective option. Don't forget that time is money, and part of the equation includes people factoring in the ability to get some work done while riding on the train or metro, as opposed to having to actively drive if they use their own vehicle.

    In my own case, for example? I've been using public transportation for my daily commute, but I'd honestly prefer to just drive. Public transportation has historically won out for me, though, largely because I have to pay upwards of $8 a day to park my car in a public garage once I get to the office. When you add the parking cost to the cost of gasoline (not to mention the mileage you put on your vehicle which reduces its resale value, and wear/tear on tires, brakes, etc.) -- the monthly train and metro unlimited usage pass is simply more cost effective.

    On the other hand? They just raised rates for the train and metro so my monthly pass now costs about $40 more, AND it seems like at the same time, service has gotten worse. (Lots of delays lately due to freight train congestion on the tracks, trains breaking down, and metro trains derailing or having various track issues.) It's making me re-evaluate my decision, and I just suspended "auto pay" on my pass renewal while I consider going back to driving again.

  62. Not by a long shot! by King_TJ · · Score: 2

    Public transportation is useful, sure .... but you're WAY exaggerating its abilities.

    For starters, you're at the mercy of the system. You've got to schedule everything around the times it stops where you need to be picked up, and it's likely it has no way to drop you off at your destination at the optimal time for your own needs. Then, you lose a measure of control over your environment while you're riding. Want to play your favorite song at full volume while you're out and about? Hope you brought a pair of earbuds, so they won't kick you off for disturbing someone else! Need to get someplace during "peak hours"? Hope you don't mind having to stand during half the trip, packed in to the subway or train car like a sardine because all of the seats are taken.

    And let's not pretend the ONLY reason for a trunk and extra storage space in a vehicle is to bring shopping home! I've owned several pickup trucks before where the idea was throwing large items back there to save me a LOT of money paying someone else to transport them for me. Moving furniture to/from a house, for example? Getting building materials to do some home repair? Hauling away bags of yard waste or other trash? And in my car, I've done on-site computer service jobs for years where I need to haul around all of the tools and spare parts, plus broken machines to bring back with me to work on at home. NONE of this is possible with public transportation.

  63. Business As Usual Only Worse by thrig · · Score: 1

    And then you run into the high costs of all that needless parking; see e.g. the research by Donald Shoup, and yet you want *four* spots per apartment? That's going to needlessly jack up the rent, waste valuable urban land, or do both in spades. Maybe for a few fancy luxury condos where they've got swerving beamers coming out of the woodwork, and can afford such, but certainly not for every building. Why not instead of your mandated minimums (which is the present system in America, though thankfully not as bad as you propose), let the market decide how much parking there should be, and how much it should cost?

  64. Then build up, not out. by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Parking minimums have been determined to be a bad idea - They promote sprawl and increases property prices (because now every property has to include land to park x cars)

    Then build up, not out.

    Yes, I know: you are not allowed to build over 4 stories in San Francisco without a city planning meeting, a "view impact assessment", and a number of other stupid things. So fine: live with the sprawl.

  65. Won't be a Cabs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It wouldn't be a cab, more or less it would be a rental service.

  66. Re:autonomous cars != end of personal car ownershi by Whorhay · · Score: 1

    I expect that the cost of insurance will eventually kill off human driven cars. I don't see any reason that personal ownership would have to go though, it might get a good deal more expensive with the amount of resources going into the production of the car.

  67. Humans are just so helpless without robots! by arctother · · Score: 1

    Good thing we will soon have robots to solve our problems. Without that, we might have to rely on boring old technologies. For instance, trying to "unjam the streets" by taking bicycles, cabs, or busses. Or walking, heaven forbid! No, the only plausible solution to any contemporary problem MUST be addressed through some expensive fix that requires computers and massive government and private sector funding.

  68. Metro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Things about DC:

    - City parking is wildly expensive.
    - Bus interchange is horrible.
    - Buses are generally taken by people...
    --- without cars OR
    --- for whom the parking costs have discouraged them OR
    --- have a single route from origin to destination, which has never happened for me in the 5 locations I have lived.
    - Subway/LightRail parking is also expensive.
    - Subway/LightRail coverage is modest.
    - Subway/LightRail rush hour service is sardine-can level at least 2 days a week on most lines.
    - Subway/LightRail will screw up every two months or so and give you 1-3 hours of delay with little recourse.
    - According to the Washington Post, average beltway rush hour speed is 24 miles/hour.