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the website owner typically gives you the right to copy when he makes it available. Of course, he needs to have the right to let you make the copy, which is no problem if he's the copyright owner. In the case of the GPL, however, he's not. A downloader can only get the right to make the downloaded copy directly from the GPL.

This is incorrect. The copyright holder can allow someone else to distribute the software. Time for thought experiment #2:

Here's the file again: http://games.datadino.com/wc1/wc1viewer-source.zip

I am the copyright holder of that file. (Seriously, I am.) I hereby grant you a non-exclusive, royalty-free license to distribute the software on a website of your choosing. (No, I'm not kidding. Go right ahead.) You may not apply any additional terms to the software when you offer it for download.

Ok, let's follow this through. Visitor comes to your site. The file is available for download because you have the rights to make it available for download. However, there is no license in the file, near the file, or referencing the file. The visitor downloads the file.

Question: Is the visitor now in violation of copyright law?

That is known as "innocent infringement" under the copyright law. It's still infringment, but the penalties are reduced.

Ah yes, thank you. Innocent infringement was the term I was looking for. And the penalties aren't reduced for the situation. According to the letter of copyright law, the penalties are $750-$30,000 and increase if the infringement can be shown to be "willing" infringement. The specific term "innocent infringement" is not used in copyright law save for a special exception for semiconductor products (Title 17 Section 907) which mentions "innocent purchaser".

So technically you are correct about it still being a crime. Practically, it's not so cut and dry. This is an area where the letter and the implementation of law tend to diverge. Take this example:

My father-in-law brought me a computer game from Russia when he came to visit us. The game was a localized version of a game that is sold here in the states. As far as I could tell, it was perfectly legitimate. The artwork was professional and the CD was pressed. However, it only had a Crystal Case for packaging. No box. While that happens here in the states as well, it's not very common with games of this type. So the possibility exists that the game is a pirate copy. The only way to be sure would be for the game's publisher to examine the article and see if it differs from what they actually publish.

Under Title 17 Section 504, I could be dragged in front of a judge for infringement if it is indeed a pirate copy. The question is, will the judge seriously hold a victim accountable for a gift? Especially when it appears so close to a legitimate copy as to indistinguishable? Doubtful. Judges create legal theories around these issues all the time, and thus set them in precedent when they do. For example, VCRs were almost ruled illegal by the Supreme Court in the so-called "Betamax case". It was only through a bit of wrangling with legal theory that we now have the right to "time-shift" television. This concept was not codified at the time, and is not (to my knowledge) currently codified in the law. It's all precedent.

Furthermore, a copyright holder would normally dislike bringing a case like this forward as suing the recipient would tend to preclude them from suing the party that offered them the infringing copy. ("Double-dipping" as it's called, is disliked by judges. They prefer that you get your pound of flesh only once.)

Buying a black market CD is not copyright infringement, but it may violate non-copyright statutes.

Oh, but it is. As you pointed out, being in posses

I also agreed the question of who makes a "copy" when you download is a closer question, so I made it simple, citing the case of making a second personal copy for your second computer, and you agreed that the GPL license was required for that personal/user situation.

You then returned to the issue of whether downloading is copying, so I gave the example of illegal downloading. You are violating copyright law when you illegally download, and the reason you are violating copyright law is because the act of downloading involves making a copy.

I also agreed the question of who makes a "copy" when you download is a closer question, so I made it simple, citing the case of making a second personal copy for your second computer, and you agreed that the GPL license was required for that personal/user situation.

You then returned to the issue of whether downloading is copying, so I gave the example of illegal downloading. You are violating copyright law when you illegally download, and the reason you are violating copyright law is because the act of downloading involves making a copy.

One 4K version of tetris on that page uses almost 40 MB of RAM after a few minutes

Did you consider that the memory you're seeing may be JVM overhead combined with pre-allocation? In smaller devices (like Cell Phones), the JVM is built into the device. So there's no real overhead for Java. The pre-allocation is also smaller to compensate for the smaller device. Considering that many of these devices have barely 64K available (never mind 120K), I'd say that Java fits just fine.

and after playing for a while there's occasional, noticeable pauses for garbage collection (yes, I verified it was from garbage collection)

I find it interesting that you singled out such an example without looking at many of the more interesting examples like T4XI, Robotron 4096, and Hunters 4K. Also, you may find Tetris 4K to be a much better version than the first item on the list.

Java's great for some tasks, it's almost like a cross-platform VB. But the language, or more likely the way the language is most commonly used, isn't optimal for some things. Games happen to be one of those things.

You don't know what you're talking about.

At one point I could have pointed to the poor performance and massive memory usage of VegaStrike. Does that mean that C/C++ is a "bad" langauge? NO! It means that it was poorly coded and still needed lots of work done. The developers worked on improving their codebase, and low-and-behold, the game got better. Perhaps it wasn't the language after all?

P.S. FireFox 1.5 screws up the CSV load. You can read the source spreadsheet if you have problems.

http://games.datadino.com/4K_2005/scores.html

Be nice to the poor server, please.

Maybe I'm just a luser who hasn't been paying attention, but this Pad2Pad thing is extremely cool.

You, my friend, are far too easily impressed.

But what the hey? Go build yourself a plastic case for your custom board. ;-)

More fun links.

I just hope that they do not have crap in it like VESA has: scrolling framebuffers to implement double buffering and text scrolling is quite stupid nowdays IMO.

Well... yes. VESA is a beast from another time altogether. The fact that it even works in x86 Protected Mode is a miracle to behold. But since it *does* work, it makes for an excellent method of out-of-the-box graphics support. Without it, the cute little QNX-on-a-floppy demo couldn't exist. :-)

BTW, you seem to be very well versed in graphics issues. Just wondering what is your background? Judging from previous conversations your knowledge defintily trumps mine, as my knowledge in the graphics field has been reading a bit too many various whitepapers lite, wikipedia articles, and a good cs background, but that is all.

That's very nice of you to say, but my knowledge is very much from the same areas as yourself. Perhaps following this link might help you better understand how I know so much about the concept. :-)

(P.S. Sorry, I just realized that the link is down right now. Check it in an hour or two and it should be back up.)

A few points:

1. Most of the "management" apps are written by people who are not experts in the Java language, thus tend to fubar it pretty well. This is changing, but slowly.

2. Sun is aware of the remote X issues. This is something they are being slow about addressing, but I believe 1.5 should show a marked performance improvement.

3. P2P programs tend to eat a lot of system resources during operation. This doesn't have so much to do with Java as in the way they are designed.

4. The majority of "good" Java software is outside of the area of Desktop applications. Desktop is still an underdeveloped area for Java.

5. Java programs will always take more resources on a mainstream machine. This is due to the fact that the JVM replicates a lot of the functionality of the OS. In instances where the JVM *is* the OS (e.g. embedded development) the difference in resources is insignificant.

Here are a few examples of Java Desktop programs that do their job extremely well:

Azureus
Wurm Online
JGoodies JDiskReport
DataDino Database Explorer
A few games I wrote for a 4k contest.

Sorry, I generally agree with what you're saying, but you tweaked my feathers on one point:

Compare a nicely-fleshed-out Windows application, with automatic visual styles and Direct3D and OpenFileDialog boxes, with wonky Java applets that might run in a browser, and might just break.

NOBODY and I do mean NOBODY writes Java Applets any more. Java Applications are what have been working to displace Windows dominance. A few examples:

Azureus Bit Torrent Client
Thinkfree Office Suite
DataDino Database Explorer
Disk Analyzer

Games too:

Wurm Online
My 4K games
Big game list

So PLEASE don't mention Java Applets. You're likely to get stoned for it.

Sorry to plug my product here, but this program will allow you to access a variety of databases through the JDBC *standard*. It provides advanced browsing capabilities (including object source code in the full version) and comes prepackaged with *standards compliant* drivers for most popular databases. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

How I wished there were more Java apps they are truly cross-OS
I didn't have a file-share program so I've installed a pretty good one in Java - pretty simple.
I needed an MSN Clone so a pretty cute one in Java.
I needed a SQL Server GUI found one in Java.
Mind you - am resorting now to web-based SQL Server apps - much better less hassle.
There are a number of software that runs in Java, ok not all are good - that is up to the programmers.
Datadino is full of bug and $99 when they use open-source code.
But many others are pretty slick and hassle free.
Java apps are truly cross-platform, wished there were more.
Last app I was impressed with but haven't played with it enough is Eclipse - brilliant

People diss Java (maybe because its trendy to do so?),
when so far I don't know of anything as cross-OS compatible and easy to install (as long as you have JDK of course).

1. Camino is (unfortuntaely) very poor at figuring out that JNLP files are actually executable and safe. Safari does a much better job with them.

2. It's a complete application to access databases. You can see it here: http://www.datadino.com. It requests unrestricted access from you so that it can talk over the network and stash drivers on the hard disk. If you go to Up2Go, you'll find plenty of applications that don't request extra permissions.

3. Do you know of any other technologies that actually *warn* you when launching a potentially unsafe application? Microsoft thought it was A-OK to allow embedded web controls full access to your machine. Now ActiveX controls are responsible for auto-installing web-toolbars and spyware.

Sorry I forgot about the security warning. If it really bothers you, go try an application on Up2Go that's marked 100% safe.

STOP WRITING APPLETS

You're just ticking everyone off. Most web users hate it when they come to a page and have to wait for the applet to load so they can use their browser again. If you want to deploy an application easily, use Java Webstart.

Try this.

1. Go here.
2. After you come back, click on this link: Launch Now!.

More great Webstart apps can be found at Up2Go.

(Yes, it's a joke. Don't get your panties in a bunch.)

You think I don't know comp-sci? Oh dear, we seem to have a pickle here. I must have chosen the wrong profession, because I could have sworn I was leading teams of developers, doing my part to change the fact of Java gaming, helping design better database drivers, competing in competitions to pack the most into 4K, building better tools, and generally spending my time trying to knock some sense into these idiots who didn't pay attention when they were getting their degrees.

I didn't get a degree, but I did take the hard way of learning comp-sci. I spent years of my time studying the various texts and papers that students *should* be studying. Some people complain that, "well you can't be a *true* comp-sci professional because you didn't pay for this piece of paper." I just shake my head at their insecurity and offer to help them solve whatever their current problem is.

There are my credentials. Take them or leave them. My only recommendation is that you don't underestimate what I can do, or what I have done.

Done

Sir, the only one smoking crack is you. Swing is not inherently slow as is proven by many, many Swing programmers. (Check my sig, you'll find a very snappy Swing product.) I have tried Netbeans and Eclipse. On a machine with 256 MB, Eclipse is faster due to fewer features. On a 512 MB machine, it's all the same. Now take Eclipse on any platform *other* than Windows and it will start to suck big time.

The truth is that IDEs are a matter of preference. Many prefer Eclipse for its simplicity and pretty looks. I prefer NetBeans for its Java focused design, and features pouring out the wahzoo. You can change the default look of NetBeans (many prefer Windows or OS X looks), but I kind of like the cleanliness that the NetBeans developers have brought to the metal look.

As a word of disclosure, I had the distinct honor of hosting a recent poll on IDE usage. As a result, I have a rather unique perspective on all of this.

...done that. And I have to warn you, it's not easy. What you think makes a good product will in fact be very different from what your customers think is a good product. You can plan on at least a year of post-release development before your software meets the needs of your clients. And you'll have to be doing the development while taking the time to advertise the existing version, so you can at least make enough money to make ends meet.

My best advise is to start a small software company while still employed. Don't advertise too much, and listen to what your customers have to say. If you keep constant development going, you should have an excellent product prepped for the next time you're out of work (or to start off on your own).

Does it run DataDino?

Well considering Java's startup time removes it from all manner of applications, it's a bit of a strawman to argue that startup time doesn't matter.

*cough* *cough*
Bullshit
Bullshit
Bullshit
Bullshit
Bullshit
Bullshit
Bullshit

Please take your bullshit trolling elsewhere. There are those of us with work to do.

And is http://www.datadino.com/ running on said combo firewall?

No. I have a hosting provider for DataDino. It would be foolish for me to host it myself when I can simply pay someone else to do it. My home firewall is for family and friend use, such as photos, my wife's recipe database, Squirrel Mail, etc.

Besides, my BSD machine needs to be patched FAR less than comparable Windows and Linux machines. Especially because I'm using stable (read: older) versions of everything that have had most of the bugs knocked out. Dangerous services (e.g. Telnet) are either turned off or firewalled. Sure, I may not have the latest and greatest features, but that's not always a necessity.

That seemed odd to me too, especially since in a recent survey, Eclipse came up as the most popular IDE, with 34% of the respondents saying they use it.

Heffel

> Does PostgreSQL have a good GUI component for direct database manipulation?

Traditionally, this has been the job of third party developers. SQL Server is the one exception as it tries to make you dependent on the GUI tools. Still, if you want a GUI tool, both pgAdmin and my own DataDino are good alternatives.

> The alternatives being ssh and using the DB's shell or some client GUI tool

You forgot about the advantage of not leaving the database port open to the internet. Many databases are rather lax when it comes to security, simply assuming that you'll keep them behind a firewall. Despite that, I know of quite a few people who use DataDino over dial-up. Having a full blown GUI tool gives them a lot of flexibility, but you have to wonder how safe it is.

Of course, that's assuming that anyone wants your data to begin with...

Sorry for the self-promotion, but you might give DataDino a try. It should do everything you need WITHOUT requiring you to compile and install every ODBC driver yourself (a big problem on OS X).

Well, I suppose it doesn't have the Excel thing, but you could put in an enhancement request...

Whatever happened to "News for nerds"? You know, interesting technology, computing industry developments, space flights, etc. Instead, we hear about talking shopping carts. Not to mention that Slashdot completely misses out on REAL news like the Java IDE Poll that turned the industry on its head and shocked developers worldwide. Instead, we hear stupid quotes like this:

> (I rue the day when viruses attack these carts, telling
> everyone to go buy Brand X)

How many computer viruses does your microwave have? Or your kid's Speek 'n Say? Or any other friggin' electronic device that we use on a daily basis? Someone hit these guys with a clue stick! You need an open platform to design and develop a virus. An embedded device would need to be taken apart and completely reprogrammed. I don't know where you guys are from, but around here, we call that vandalism.

(insert some swearing and grumbling)

Ok, I feel better now.

Yes, Java didn't deliver on the client side.

I don't know about that. I think that there just isn't enough work put into the GUI by most people. Creating a *nice* GUI is HARD, no matter what system you're using. Macs make it a bit easier with the philosophy that every window should be as simple as possible. However, Windows (the standard most software strives for) strives to cram as many buttons and controls in as small of a space as possible. Under Windows, your program needs toolbars, drop down menus, side bars, dockable sub -windows, MDI frames, etc. That's a lot of work! None the less, there are some good examples of Java clients that can meet that standard. Here are a few links:

jGoodies, masters of the Java GUI
DataDino, my own Java based commercial product.
SmartCVS, a multi-platform CVS GUI.

Even forgiving its syntaxes and behavioral quirks, life sucks without Query Analyser and Enterprise Manager and other GUI based data manipulation tools.

Well, at least I can help you with that one. As for MySQL being quirky and annoying, I'm afraid magic is still out of my realm. :)

MySQL has been bashed a lot, but that's probably because people stopped using it in favor of a pirated version of oracle or sql server or whatever (postgresql), but it has made quite a few large improvements in the recent months/years and I bet most of the MySQL bashers could give it another shot and then not complain anymore.

Actually, I hate it because I develop for it. The blasted thing is quirky as all hell and generally makes your life difficult. On the bright side, at least you don't have to insert a '0' in an autonumber field anymore...

> Why is this a troll?

Good question. I guess someone didn't like me and blew all their mod points. Just to tick them off I'll post it again. :-)

Subject: For those of you who use Linux or Mac OS X...
...make sure you pick up a cross-platform tool for working with SQL. SQL Server is particularily hard to use in a cross-platform way, but thanks to the jTDS and FreeTDS projects, we now have drivers.

Linux and Mac OS X users, unite! Or untie. Or something...

...make sure you pick up a cross-platform tool for working with SQL. SQL Server is particularily hard to use in a cross-platform way, but thanks to the jTDS and FreeTDS projects, we now have drivers.

Linux and Mac OS X users, unite! Or untie. Or something...

Aren't you the same guy who got the bright idea to run two copies of OSX on the new G5s simply because 64bit is "twice as large"? I hardly think you're qualified to be making a statment like "Don't use Java". Besides, I DO use Java and I even sell a database product based on it. (Keep an eye out over the next week or two for an awesome new version!) And I can say that Java is good for quite a few things *including* database access.

Step 1. Go to http://java.sun.com and download the JRE 1.4.1.

Step 2. Visit http://www.datadino.com and click on "Webstart Now!".

Step 3. Right click and save Meat Fighter. Find where you saved the JAR file and double click.

Step 4. Right click and save Duke Nukes Stuff. Double click on the JAR.

Step 5. Visit jGoodies and try their wide variety of products.

If you are under Linux, I'm afraid the games probably won't perform well. (Little issue with getting X to be configured to handle high speed direct-framebuffer graphics). However, DataDino should work, although you may need to get the installer instead of using the super-cool WebStart link (Mozilla problem only!). If you don't have a database to use, visit the "Supported Databases" page and download the test HSQLDB database.

The plain and simple fact is that Java is fighting two issues:

1. Poorly written apps that give all Java apps a bad name. (For example, "genius" A decides to load a table before releasing the event thread. Table takes 5 minutes to load and user gets annoyed. The solution would have been to load the table in a separate thread so that the user can see and interact with the table items as they are being loaded.)

2. Perceived performance vs. actual performance. People see Swing and the default look and feel and instantly "feel" that the app is slower than windows. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In all reality, it is probably running faster than the Windows app, it just doesn't seem right. This is caused by the Java L&F being way too "flat". Your brain doesn't quite connect the buttons and other objects as being solid objects to be manipulated.

I am a programmer who ended up out of a job. My resume was great, but businesses aren't looking at what you can actually do anymore or what skills you have. So I decided to start my own business.

DataDino is a product I developed that is similar to Toad, but allows you to connect to multiple databases. We've sold a few copies so far and expect business to gradually pick up. Here are a few things I learned:

1. It takes time. If you can't hold out for more than six months, you'd better try working double shifts part-time.

2. Your success is partially dependent on how well your business is known. If people know you, they'll trust you and buy your product.

3. Try to have an open-door policy. With DataDino we use Bugzilla to allow people to request enhancements and new database support. People like this because it gives them feedback that you as a company actually listen to what they have to say.

4. You'll be tempted to pack a lot of helpful text into your web page and advertising materials. Don't do this. Try to pack actionable items into as small a space as possible. (e.g. I used to explain what Java Web Start was before I offered to option to run the program. Now there's just a big red plunger that says GO.)

5. Marketing is a hellva hard thing to do. It's challenging and one wrong step can tarnish your company's name. Make sure you are getting the biggest bang for your buck off of every advertising dollar, and make sure that none of it is likely to offend your users.

I highly recommend two tasks to get you going. The first is to attend a StoresOnline seminar when they come to your area. These guys make money off of people with successful online businesses, so their seminars are very helpful. You might want to check out this link before you buy into their offer tho.

The second is subscribe to SiteProNews. There's a lot of helpful statistics and info that pours out of their articles, so you probably want to check it out.

Good Luck!

Zak,

Putting aside what MySQL is and isn't good at, I'd like to ask that when you guys implememt features, you do them according to SQL specs. As the author of DataDino, a database management tool, I've been bitten several times by MySQLs lack of SQL 92 adherance.

For example, the SQL specs state that identfier tokens (e.g. table names, column names, etc.) can be encaspulated in double quotes. The only problem is that MySQL uses the accent sign (`) instead of quotes. All the code that was ok for nearly every other database on the planet, is suddenly not ok for MySQL. Very bad.

Simple things like this can go a long way toward people taking MySQL more seriously. As it stands, you may manage to get all the standard RDBMS features in, but it won't be compatible with anyone. Thus MySQL will not be accepted until this changes.

All images that I create are PNGs. Check out http://www.datadino.com and see for yourself.