Building A Low-Budget TiVo Substitute?

thepuma writes "Since I'm cheap, and don't want to pay monthly fees to Tivo, I am researching building my own low-budget Personal Video Recorder and player. Free software options include Freevo and MythTV. Hardware options are the main cost factor. How would you go about building the perfect low-budget PVR?" We've looked at similar questions before, but the guts of such a system (both hardware and software) have been improving -- MythTV, for instance, now supports Hauppauge's PVR-350 card. How would you build a system like this now?

Comments

Just buy a vcr

[Anonymous Coward]

and some tapes.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what's wrong with a VCR? You can even record the tapes digitally

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Cromac]

Seriously, what's wrong with a VCR? You can even record the tapes digitally

Compared to a Tivo: You have to switch tapes They only hold 8 hours You have to rewind them It's a pain to find that 30 min show in the middle of the tape They're louder (at least mine is) when FF and Rewinding Tivo has automatic scheduling

I'm sure there are other advantages, those are just off the top of my head.

Tapes have the advantage of being portable and everywhere so you can take what you recorded to your buddies house, but overall Tivo or some other similar DVR blows the VCR away.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have to ask this, you really don't understand how fundamentally a DVR changes your TV watching behavior. It's not a VCR.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[mjh]

I'm sure there are other advantages, those are just off the top of my head.

One of the big ones that most people don't mention is that with a TiVo you can watch your show from the beginning 15 minutes after it starts. With a VCR, even if you've managed to get it programmed the way you want it, and you've always got a tape it, if you get home 5 mins after your favorite program starts, you have wait until it's over until you can see the beginning. With a TiVo you just start watching.

Also TiVo records by show title and guide information instead of by timeslot. So NBC decides to rearrange Wednesday night (for whatever reason) you'll still get West Wing recorded.

Comparing a TiVo to a VCR is like comparing a automobile to a tricycle. Yes they're both methods of transportation but one is dramatically more convenient.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[The_K4]

Not to mention that tapes need to be replaced, after about 6-months of abuse (taping over the old stuff with the new) the tape begins to not work as well.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Angram]

"Comparing a TiVo to a VCR is like comparing a automobile to a tricycle. Yes they're both methods of transportation but one is dramatically more convenient."

Can't argue with that; the tricycle is infinitely more convenient to a 7-year-old.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[j-turkey]

A VCR is not nonlinear, and it's not hackable like a TiVo is.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[spike hay]

Seriously, what's wrong with a VCR? You can even record the tapes digitally

A VCR sucks. I use my computer as a tvr, with a very cheap but decent quality ATI TV Wonder VE. I don't think you realize how completely different a PVR/computer with a tv tuner is.

I have a program that downloads TV listings, so I simply choose what programs I want to record. I can choose as many programs as I want. I don't need to mess around with poor quality VHS tapes that wear out. It's all stored on my hard drive. I can access any part of any file almost instantly. No tedious rewinding or fastforwarding.

And, since my video card has tv out, I can watch recorded shows on my television while doing other work on my regular monitor.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[mjallison]

For a serious time shifter (or at least me) the VCR has become a liability. I capture many shows on a regular basis (my wife does too) and the VCR tapes pile up next to the TV until we have time to watch them. Becauswe of work, family, etc. it may be quite some time before we get around to "clearing tape".
To make matters worse, sometimes our shows get intermingled (her shows on the same tape as my shows) and we don't clear them at the same time. Now we have lots of tapes (~12) with some shows watched and some unwatched. Performing garbage collection on a linear access medium isn't something I enjoy.
I do enjoy tinkering though, it's been fun putting this together. Having my pvr on my house-net will be really nice.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[laird]

This kinda reminds of of the Apple ][ vs. TRS-80 debates, when the TRS-80 guys would say "we can store 300K on a $3 cassette, you floppy disk guys are wasting money".

Of course, there are certain advantages to random access storage with a directory structure. Like, say, knowing what's on the disk and where it is. :-)

Re:Just buy a vcr

[UnknowingFool]

Seriously, what's wrong with a VCR? You can even record the tapes digitally

Problems with a VCR:
1) Management. If you've recorded a season's worth of show, you have to make sure that they are all recorded in order with no repeats. Rewinding and forwarding is a pain in the butt. Since tapes are only 8 hours, you have to manage the tapes as well as the content.
2) Sharing. You can't watch a recorded show on your computer in the bedroom when your spouse is using the TV in the living room. Most of these machines can be networked so that you can at least transfer files.
3) VCRs cannot function as DVD or media centers

Re:Just buy a vcr

[geekoid]

"It's a pain to find that 30 min show in the middle of the tape"
Many new VCR have the option to move through the tape until it finds a new show, most VCRs have automatic scheduling. You can skip commercials, or have the commersial removed.

The value of tivo is easy of use, and 'instant' gratification.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[netringer]

..and show me VCR that let's you watch the show from the beginning while it's recording an hour into it. That you can tell "get me The Sopranos" and it finds a showing on HBO of an episode it hasn't recorded and doesn't conflict with other things you want to record. ...that can hold 106 hours or more of recordings. ..that you can record two things at once while you watch a third (with a DirecTivo). That will record something you *might* like based on what you've told it you do like.

True story: Got the GF set up with a modded HDVR2 DirectTivo with an additional 80GB. It was one day old when it recorded "Real Woman Have Curves" as a suggestion. She loved the movie. She could not believe I hadn't arranged the recording. I hadn't

A troll like this shows up in every thread mentiong DVRs or TiVos. I guess IHTBT. BTW, VHS tape look huge these days,

Re:Just buy a vcr

[mjh]

Of course, there are certain advantages to random access storage with a directory structure. Like, say, knowing what's on the disk and where it is. :-)

Of course, that's true. But in that case, most people chose convenience (floppies) over cheap (casettes). It's not the same with TiVo vs homebrew DVR. TiVo is both easier and cheaper than a homebrew DVR. So I don't really see Tivo going the way of the data cassette.

$.02

Re:Just buy a vcr

[cayenne8]

Yup. I've found that with my Tivo...I no longer know what channel or what time my shows come on anymore....nor do I care.

I think I may actually cancel my Netflix acct....I've had the same movies since last Feb....its just that I always have so much to watch on Tivo...I don't think about movies as fillers much any more...

A DVR drastically changes how you think about TV. I never rush home to catch a show...it will be there for me when I'm ready to watch it.

I do however, like the preferences and auto recording of shows based on my previous watched shows. I'm generally a big privacy advocate...but, in this case, since they say it is release only as aggregate data...I let it go. I very seldom have spare room for it to grab programs, but, the ones it gets generally are good. And if I can in any way help skew the ratings on the shows I like....well, pretty soon, we'll see nothing but a channel dedicated to the Simpsons, Drew Carey, half the FoodTV,Discovery, and TLC lineups...and of late...the old Speed Racer cartoons they started showing again..hahaha.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[laird]

"Of course, there are certain advantages to random access storage with a directory structure. Like, say, knowing what's on the disk and where it is. :-) ...
Of course, that's true. But in that case, most people chose convenience (floppies) over cheap (casettes). It's not the same with TiVo vs homebrew DVR. TiVo is both easier and cheaper than a homebrew DVR. So I don't really see Tivo going the way of the data cassette."

Right, but the discussion was about whether one should "just buy a VCR".

Btween the TiVo and the MythTV, I personally have both -- the MythTV is a cool device, and astoundingly good for what it is. The TiVo is already paid for (with lifetime subscription), and works just fine, so I have no reason to stop using it. Choosing between them, right now the TiVo is better for a normal person, and the MythTV is an astoundingly good, useful hacker toy. Wait six months, and I bet that companies are selling preconfigured MythTV boxes. :-)

Re:Just buy a vcr

[lelnet]

I've seen those...but I've never seen one that actually works the way you'd expect it to.

For that matter, the real pain isn't _finding_ the 30 minutes, it's _erasing_ the 30 minutes. Or, more precisely, it's erasing two noncontiguous 30-minute shows and recording one 60-minute show in their place. VCRs cannot do this...it's a fundamental limitation of sequential access media. TiVO does it so easily that TiVO owners quickly forget that they ever had to spend time thinking about such issues.

Add to that the fact that VCR owners (and, the last time I checked, users of _every single free Linux-based PVR system_) with digital cable have to be sitting in front of the TV with the remote in hand when the show they want to record comes on, and virtually all of the time-warping value of a recording medium is lost. (Not only can you not be out of the _house_ when your show comes on, you can't even be out of the room, or even sitting in the room but reading a book. So you really might as well go back to being a slave to network schedulers.) TiVO does this for you.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[perlwannabe]

Ah the good old days. If only I could go back in time, I would buy shares of Atari and be a millionaire now.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[bickerdyke]

Might take a while depending from your recording format, but why not use VCD made from your recordings for portability?

Does anyone happen to know how long converting material from a VDR (for DVB-Broadcasts) takes?

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Anonymous Coward]

The advantage of tapes is that they are an offline
backup not subject to disk failures.

Creating a backup of your PVR disk would probably
violate copyright laws that allow the fair use
of time shifted recordings as you are making a
copy of the copy.

So PVR is more convenient with enhanced functionality over VCR if you only keep copies
for time shifted viewing. If you regularly record
TV to keep in perpetuity (which is not actually
legal) then PVR is a more fragile format.

Personally I am interested in a cheap alternative
to TiVo so I can use it as a combination of a
time-shifted or real-time pausing PVR, plus being
able to use the same machine as a general file
server at other times. I don't want to have the
house full of a million PCs I have to keep up
to date with patches, fix problems with, and so
on!

Re:Just buy a vcr

[mjh]

Oops! My bad. I got my threads confused and thought you were saying something about homebrew DVRs. So sorry!

Re:Just buy a vcr

[shotfeel]

With regard to not being able to erase bit of a tape, all I have to say is how much time can your TiVO store? Tapes are cheap, reusable and there's no limit to how many I can use. Once the TiVO's drive is full, then what?

Not saying I don't have TiVO envy, just that you're trading non-sequential access for a fixed size.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Cromac]

With regard to not being able to erase bit of a tape, all I have to say is how much time can your TiVO store? Tapes are cheap, reusable and there's no limit to how many I can use.

Once the TiVO's drive is full, then what?

I suspect you know, but once the drive is full you either stop recording anything or delete things to make room.

How much time a Tivo can store is subject to how much drive space you have. Some have put 2 160 gig drives in them for roughly 300 hours of storage. For some people who have huge movie collections that might not be enough, but for the average consumer that would likely be more than they'd use in a long time.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Deven]

With regard to not being able to erase bit of a tape, all I have to say is how much time can your TiVO store? Tapes are cheap, reusable and there's no limit to how many I can use. Once the TiVO's drive is full, then what?

Each of my DirecTV/TiVo units can store well over 100 hours, but I added hard drives to them. Originally they held about 30 hours each. Of course, when the TiVo is full, old recordings have to be deleted to make room for new recordings, or you stop recording anything new.

You don't have to give up your VCR when you get a TiVo. The TiVo supports a "Save to VCR" option, and allows you to use the VCR more effectively. You can just record programs to tape that you want to archive, instead of recording "temporary" programs that may remain on that videotape indefinitely. Tape fragmentation is easily avoided, and you're more likely to actually watch the "temporary" recordings if they're on the TiVo... (Of course, this staging system works best with a DirecTV/TiVo unit where you don't have any recording quality loss on the TiVo!)

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Vignettian]

I have digital cable and I've never changed the channel since setting up my MythTV box. $20 in parts from the 'shack and I had a lirc transmitter sitting in front of the IR window of my Comcast digital cable box. (this one doesn't have the serial port enabled)

Myth changes the channel without a hitch.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[lelnet]

Depends on the quality I record at. But it's enough to record a week's worth of stuff I want to watch so that I can watch all of it on the one day that I actually have time to watch TV. Most of it I immediately delete, and what I want to save, I can (and do) copy to tape. (If I had a DVD recorder I'd copy to that instead, but I don't, so oh well.)

This is something closely approaching the ideal process flow pattern. Tape as a time-warping medium doesn't (and _can't_) come anywhere close.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[lelnet]

Hmm...I'm not afraid of building from Radio Shack parts, but the last time I checked MythTV's best offer in terms of changing channels on a cable box was that it could shell out to an external program to do that...except that no external programs existed that could do it, and the information needed to write one was proprietary and guarded by a Motorola NDA.

Either way, building a box that can do it still costs more than TiVO, and counting on free program data continuing to be available assumes that the bribe level required for Congress to allow database copyrights will never be reached. (Because trust me, if that level ever does get reached, it will _immediately_ become illegal to get TV listings without paying somebody for them.)

I have a Myth box

[SirTwitchALot]

I use myth (mainly because it supports live tv while freevo doesn't.) It's a decent program, but still somewhat buggy. I find it crashes on occasion, and compiling can be a nightmare at times. With a fast processor (I have an Athlon XP1800) you can easily encode and decode without having to use a hardware mpeg card. The setup process is somewhat painful, and sometimes confusing. I think Myth is great for a DIY'er, but not ready for a consumer solution.

Re:I have a Myth box

[radixvir]

ya mine sometimes gets stuck in a menu and i cant back out using escape. end up killing the process.

Re:I have a Myth box

[Darth Maul]

I have a myth box (had it for over half a year) and don't find it buggy or hard to setup at all! I'm impressed with the quality of the software. It's only nearing a 0.13 release and it's already quite mature.

The important thing for me is that the WAF is high (wife acceptance factor). We're almost never home so to be able to watch whatever we want whenever is a real plus. And she really loves the image gallery feature.

IMHO MythTV rules.

Re:I have a Myth box

[paul_pick1]

An easier path to myth installation is to use knoppmyth which (just like it sounds) uses a knoppix style boot-and-detect-everything followed by a myth installation-to-hd script.

Re:I have a Myth box

[Anonymous Coward]

I have mythtv running on a 2400+ with two tuner cards. In addition to the frontend running on the 2400+, I have two other remote frontends in the house.

Everything works great. The wife love's it. No way Tivo can compete.

The 2400+ can encode two channels simultaneously at 640x480 mpeg4, playback a channel on it's front end and serve video to the other two frontends at about 90% CPU usage.

I found it relatively easy to set up. It helps if you sorta understand how a database works (i.e. mysql).

Re:I have a Myth box

[st0ner1]

I run a myth box. Im not sure that you can put together a good running one for less than the cost of a TIVO but the cost factor is offset by the far more usefull feature set and not having to buy a subscription for it.

Re:I have a Myth box

[AKnightCowboy]

The important thing for me is that the WAF is high (wife acceptance factor).

I guess my WAF is pretty high. I wanted to take mine down to rebuild it with the PVR-250 cards and erase whatever it has recorded (about 500 shows) but my wife freaked out and offered to buy me a DVD writer for Christmas if I'd back up her shows. I reluctantly accepted her offer. :-/ I guess it got accepted pretty good for what I had originally setup as a toy project to catch Seinfeld episodes I had missed in first-run.

Re:I have a Myth box

[elmegil]

I have a myth box, but having a 15 month old, have never had the time to actually get it to work (it's assembled, sitting in the living room, never hooked up). The main point about a MythTV box though is that it definitely is NOT a cheap replacement for Tivo. You save subscription fees, but you spend more on hardware and more time hacking with it than you would for a Tivo, as others have pointed out. I'm seriously considering going with a Dish Network offer that gets me a free DVR that has the dish tuner built into it, frees me from the cable company's random rate hikes for no benefit (yah, I know they all do it, but I want to punish them for the latest round), and saves me the hassle of getting the PVR to work.

Re:I have a Myth box

[hex706f726368]

I have a Tivo and a Myth box. I built the Myth box for approxiametely the same price as the Tivo w/lifetime subscription. If HTPC cases weren't so few to pick from, it probably wouldn't have been that close. Which do I like better? Tough call. But if I had heard of Myth first, I would've never got a Tivo.

Re:I have a Myth box

[Rob Parkhill]

As with most things Linux, your mythtv experience completely depends on what hardware you are using. For example, don't even attempt to get it running on an EPIA M10000 based system with a Hauppauge PVR-250 installed unless you are a serious Linux hacker. Wait another 4-5 months, then try it. The drivers might behave by then.

If you are building a box from the ground-up, it's best to copy what someone else has already built, or do some serious research into your hardware first. (The Asus Pundit system seems to be popular, and pretty inexpensive. Not to mention it's not much bigger than a VCR.)

My biggest concern with mythtv is the use of XMLTV for the guide data. You just know that someday soon, the websites that are being scraped are simply going to start blocking XMLTV (at least one website has started doing it already), and then you are left with a really expensive VCR and no guide data.

That said, once up and running, myth is quite nice. Sure, it could use a few tweaks here and there, but I'm sure those will be worked out eventually. If you don't want to keep updating the software, get a TiVO :-)

Re:I have a Myth box

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV has one of the best documented installs there is. Sure, if you want something will al the bells and whistles you have to install a bunch of other programs that it uses, but it tells you exactly how to install them. It even gives you what you enter into the command-line. It's documented extremely well.

Re:I have a Myth box

[JohnnyDanger]

I have had MythTV on an old Athlon 700 MHz since summer. I like it, but wouldn't recommend it for everybody. The cost breakdown:

$100 --- Hauppauge pvr-250
$90 --- 160 Gig HD
$10 --- 10' keyboard cord for across the room viewing

I watch from the monitor, which isn't much smaller than my TV.

I found the software setup lengthy, and slightly difficult, but I think of this as hobby time. It is probably easier to build a stand-alone system from scratch than to add MythTV to an existing machine that you wish to preserve.

My biggest complaints are with the TV listing procedure. XMLTV or the site it grabs from changes formats, and MythTV croaks.

My machine's kt133 chipset causes hardware problems. Granted, this isn't really the fault of Myth/Hauppauge but it's the only time the problem manifests itself. When the bus gets overloaded, Myth gives an error and stops recording. Nothing is more frustrating than watching the first 12 minutes of the Daily Show, then discovering you don't have the rest. Fortunately, this happens infrequently, and I gather that the pvr-250/MythTV setup plays nicer with other motherboards.

I don't run myth on the machine all the time, and it takes a little time to start up. If I just want to watch some tube, I often just flip on the regular old TV, commercials and all. Seems like it kind of defeats the whole purpose.

On the other hand, it is really great to be able to watch shows whenever I want. (I would never be able to get my act together enough to actually set the vcr.)

Re:I have a Myth box

[scottadmi]

Approximately three months ago I spent around $600 to set up the ulimate TIVO/DVD home entertainment system. Admitidly, the intitial setup was quite challenging. Numerous hurdels had to be crossed to get all the drivers to compile. Of particular note, overscan was not supported in the latest NVidia driver.

Having finally got it up and running however I am continually amazed at its performance and functionality. MythTVs interface is clean (and plugable which is fortunate) and architecturally very sound. My 1.6 GHz Athlon XP easily handles recording and watching television. The commercial skip warrants the cost by itself. Furthermore, after getting LIRC working, it is completely controlled via a universal remote. After some work, Xine worked flawlessly as a DVD player. That in addition to the music interface (with excellent full screen visualization) and a game emulator module and it blows away commercial products. What I've found particularly cool is the optional web interface allow remote scheduling for recordings.

In response to the buggyness, despite initial difficulties, a 20 day up time thus far is pretty good to me (considering it was only restarted as part of testing).

Re:I have a Myth box

[yamla]

What t.v. tuner card do you use? What chipset is your motherboard? How do you find CPU usage on your XP1800?

I ask because I have an XP 1700 that I might use for something like this. However, I have an older Haupauge card and the card is darn unstable. Crashes regularly, even in Windows, and has done with two different motherboard chipsets (both VIA, however). Also, the driver support from Haupauge was terrible. The Linux driver was in a different league as far as quality, compared to the Windows 2k and XP drivers from the manufacturer.

Re:I have a Myth box

[scottnic]

I'm going to strongly recommend AGAINST the DishPVR.

I had a TiVo (Series 1 w/30GB) Until I got DishNetwork. At that point, I got the DishPVR 501 and sold my TiVo to my sister.

Big mistake. The DishPVR doesn't have Season Passes. It doesn't automatically adjust recording times if a show is delayed 30 mins. It's a much klunkier interface than TiVo.

I consider the DishPVR a (small) step up from a VCR. The Program Guide integration is the only thing it has going for it.

As soon as my DishNetwork contract is up I'm dropping it and going with DirecTV with a DirecTiVo.

Re:I have a Myth box

[Anonymous Coward]

Err.. Freevo supports "Live TV" as well, uses xmltv and time-shifting and what have you.

Re:I have a Myth box

[MegaHamsterX]

Direct TV's PVR with TiVo service is the way to go, I think they are running a promo on it for new service, and unlinke anything else here, it's a TiVo, requires no hacking, and a 3 room system is $99, the recorded stream never goes analog until you watch it, and it blows anything else out of the water that does the D-A-D-A conversion.

For the anti-subscription people.....
As far as the subscription, well are you paying for cable? If so you pay for it all day long, even when you're not home, you do pay for the Tivo all day long as well, but it's recording what you programmed it with, as well as stuff it thinks you might like.

If you like to hack - do the hack - if you like to watch commercial-free tv with an easy to use interface - get the TiVo - which you can still hack if you like.

Add it up, do the math, the hack is more expensive for everyone but the unemployed.

Re:I have a Myth box

[SirTwitchALot]

It most certainly doesn't. The best you can do is watch live tv. Timeshifting is not yet possible.

look here

Re:I have a Myth box

[SirTwitchALot]

It's a generic card that uses the Brooktree driver (Generally the cheapest capture cards available.) The motherboard uses a VIA chipset, I have an asrock k7-vm2. As far as CPU, take your pick, sar, top, or any of the other standard means to measure performance in UNIX.

Re:I have a Myth box

[jpiterak]

I hate 'mee too' posts, but...

Cecil and Dale really are doing a great job with this project. For some hardware this works 'right out of the box'. There is also an active forum on their website website

Between this site and MythTV's, it's really not bad to set up a working system fast.

Perhaps what's even better is that because knoppmyth is based on Knoppix (and thus on Debian) , it allows you to apt-get update to upgrade (most) of your software as needed. What isn't updated with an apt-get gets updated with Cecil and Dale' upgrade scripts as new versions come out (without touching your data). The only thing that I could think of that would make this cooler is for them to put together an apt repository on their own to track the project's changes.

Anyway... Do check it out.

--JP

Re:I have a Myth box

[elmegil]

I appreciate the advice; no need here for a three room system (only 1 TV), but otherwise both these followups have good points.

Re:I have a Myth box

[mbourgon]

XMLTV - not an issue, there's a company that will sell you the data. Yes, you have to pay, but there you go.

Re:I have a Myth box

[Rob Parkhill]

Details? What company will sell this data to the general public today?

Re:I have a Myth box

[ncc74656]

I ask because I have an XP 1700 that I might use for something like this. However, I have an older Haupauge card and the card is darn unstable. Crashes regularly, even in Windows, and has done with two different motherboard chipsets (both VIA, however).

It doesn't help that Hauppage only provides VfW drivers, not WDM drivers like everybody else is using now. I've used a bunch of less-expensive capture cards for which WDM drivers were provided and have never run into trouble with them. (Capture software that uses VfW (like VirtualDub) can access WDM capture devices through a translation layer. Capture software that uses DirectShow would work better, though...an example here is Virtual VCR.)

There's an open-source WDM driver for Bt8x8 capture devices that you might want to look at if you haven't already...as long as the hardware Hauppage provides is halfway decent, this driver might let you make better use of it.

Re:I have a Myth box

[DukeyToo]

I have a DirecTivo, and am very happy, except for one thing - it will not dialup to DirectTV over Vonage (IP Telephone). The TiVo dialup works fine, but the DirectTV tries to connect at too high a speed. And it is not as "hackable" as other Tivo units, so it is nigh impossible to use USB ethernet instead of dialup.

Otherwise, its just dandy. Dual tuners, so I can record 2 things, or watch one and record another, etc. I think it costs me around $5 per month.

Re:I have a Myth box

[MegaHamsterX]

Well, the actually are hackable, the best hack I've seen so far is to burn another rom, it's been sometime since I've had a rom burner, since my series 1 direcxtivo just died I very well maybe buying another rom burner. This will be the 5th TiVo :-)

If you have the burner it looks fairly simple...for the slashdot crowd.

Re:I have a Myth box

[DukeyToo]

I can see the headlines now:

"DirectTv sues all owners of ROM Burners".

It could happen :/

Why not

[Pingular]

try hacking together a more advanced version of TVPlus?

Re:Why not

[Anonymous Coward]

bECAUSE wE aRE tOO bUSY hAVING hETEROSEXUAL sEX, sOMETHING yOU rEFUSE tO tRY dUE tO uNCONTROLABLE fEELINGS oF fAGGOTRY!

Re:Why not

[Channard]

bECAUSE wE aRE tOO bUSY hAVING hETEROSEXUAL sEX, sOMETHING yOU rEFUSE tO tRY dUE tO uNCONTROLABLE fEELINGS oF fAGGOTRY!

Man, the standard of script writers on 'Friends' has really dropped.

This Month's Linux Journal...

[KendyForTheState]

...has a great article on just this subject.

Low Budget TIVO

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't they call those a VCR?

Go to this site :-)

[atari2600]

TV Cards

Pretty helpful site for beginners.

Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't try to use one of these projects because you think it will be cheaper.

If you want to do it because you think there are other benefits, or because you like to tinker, go right ahead.

You will spend more than the cost of a Tivo plus lifetime service by the time you are done, though.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Lumpy]

really?

Coolermaster component case atc-620 -$88.00
Motherboard with processor and integrated items-99.00
128 meg of ram $28.00
120 Gig hard drive - $99.00
OEM-boxed PVR-250 capture/tuner card $80.00
IR reciever + remote that is lirc compatable $40.00

$434.00 + tax

all from my local computer shoppe. It would have been cheaper if I went looking on ebay for the parts.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Fallen Kell]

I agree. Personally, I did it because I wanted to be able to burn DVD's of what I watch/record. Now when you take that into consideration (and the fact that a stand-alone DVD burner/recorder is still about $800), and add in the fact that I have TiVo abilities as well (with over 500 gigs of storage space), I feel that my setup more then surpasses the abilities that I could get with a consumer product. I also have the added bonus of it being a kicking system for gaming and video editing as well. Now grant it I paid about $2500 in total (6 months ago), but once you take into account the fact that it would be $600 for the TiVo parts (with only 1/3 the hard drive space) and the $800 for it being able to produce DVD's of TV shows, there is more then 1/2 the costs right there. The bonuses of it also being able to then edit the video as well as do heavy gaming more then makes up for the rest of the costs.

You can probably make a scalled down version for $800 - $1000 to do capture and burning to DVD's now (especially with DVD burners being only $100 now as opposed to the $300 when I built mine).

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Eponymous, Showered]

Which is more or less what a TiVo and subscription cost. Plus, most people are going to want some sort of optical drive in their PC. And your machine is going to be a bit tight on RAM probably.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[ivan256]

40 Hour TiVo w/DirecTV reciever. Brand new $99

Lifetime TiVo service $299

Total $398... And you don't have to do any work.

Though I don't know why you would buy lifetime service instead of paying the $4/month for service through DirecTV. You're probably going to upgrade in less than 6 years.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[mgs1000]

They no longer offer lifetime service for directv tivos.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Serveert]

The upgrade costs money with Tivo, with a freeware program it's free. So over time the freeware option will probably be cheaper.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[MarkGriz]

"Though I don't know why you would buy lifetime service instead of paying the $4/month for service through DirecTV"

Actually, for the Directv/Tivo unit, you can't. There is no lifetime service option with Directv/Tivo, only the Tivo standalone units. You have to pay $5/month to Directv, who presumably shares some of that with Tivo. Plus, if you sign up for the full DTV package (HBO,Starz,etc) the $5 fee is waived.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[dspyder]

Time to source, purchase and assemble all of those components?

Time to tinker with the Linux serial driver to make IR work properly?

RCA cables and other misc connectivity items? Not expensive, but included w/ the Tivo.

Time to install the software and get everything tested and working?

Time to train wife how to boot into the right shell?

Sure it can be done, for an acceptable cost given the added benefits you get from that solution... but if cost and WAF are priorities then there's simply no comparison.

--D

Re:Don't do it for cost

[jkeyes]

(and the fact that a stand-alone DVD burner/recorder is still about $800),

I'm sorry but that number is WAY inflated, Aldi the lowcost food store that sells Generic foods had one for $270 BestBuy.com had one for $200 (not sure if it was a price mistake) but basically you can find one for for around $300.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[jared_hanson]

A stand-alone 80 hour Series 2 TiVo costs $299. A 40 hour is $199. So, both are cheaper than your computer.

Now, there is no subscription fee with a custom built jobber. TiVo chargess $299/Lifetime or $12.95 per month, which you can pay by working about 2 hours at minimum wage.

I own a TiVo and have built a custom HTPC using both MythTV and Freevo. Trust me, you will spend way more than 2 hours per month configuring and troubleshooting an HTPC (at least one on Linux). The screen scrapers for TV guide data are constantly breaking as the scrapees change their format. Plus, most are still buggy, requiring frequent recompiles of the latest software.

On top of all that, no solution comes close to the ease of use of TiVo. There is nothing that compares to Wish Lists and Season Passes. If you get a TiVo, you simply plug it in and walk through the guided set-up and you are done. Pure television bliss. With an HTPC, none of the enjoyment is there, because you spend more time hacking stuff than actually getting a better TV experience.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[cheezedawg]

You are aware that you can buy a tivo unit with built in DVD burner for under $700, right?

http://www.pioneerburner.com/
http://devsdeals.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.p hp?masterid=1361996&ut=c0373404f6bde38f&found=2&se arch=DVR-810H

Is your video editing and gaming that you can do on pretty much any PC woth the extra $1800? Didn't think so...

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Time to train wife how to boot into the right shell?

it's difficult to say "press the power button"??

only a complete moron would set it up to be anything but a dedicated box that auto-loads.

hell mine doesnt even need to be logged in.

Oh and I play MAME games on mine, RIP CD's, RIP DVD's and download imdb info and coverart for recorded movies...

Tivo cant do any of the above.

A tivo is $299.00 the subscription is about the same.

any moron can buy used old junk, we are talking new.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Darkroom]

I definately didn't do it for cost, but it's a lot more flexable using a PC. Unfortunately my 2 video systems are using WinDUD 2k, but I'm looking into finding an open source alternative.

http://www.darkroomproductions.com/media/pvs/

I've been using the software for a while and haven't even reprogramming any of my VCR after a power outage several months ago.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[smatthew]

Yeah they don't, but it's only $5 a month for as many tivos as you want. With my two DirecTiVos, that's a 10 year recovery time ($5/month x 10 yrs = 600) vs a lifetime service which they don't offer (299*2=598)

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Arcturax]

What about control?

Want to skip commercials? Want to NOT deal with corporate slime like DirecTV who sue people for buying smart cards even when they had no intention of using them for stealing DirecTV signals?

Want to NOT support a company who fires off legal threats at fans of the device who want to hack and extend it's capabilities?

Want to burn your shows to DVD-R/VCD and share with friends?

Want DRM free equipment?

Then you will be better off spending the extra time and money building your own device.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[jCaT]

You used to be able to do lifetime with the directv tivos, and it is still possible to find units with lifetime service on ebay... like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&it em =3064481150&category=11725

That is the absolute cheapest way out, because you'll get a deal on the lifetime service, too. I have the sony SAT-T60, and paid over $600 for the unit and the lifetime service when I bought it over three years ago. I'd pay that much again, it's worth it. I've upgraded a lot of my home theater equipment since then, but quite honestly this unit is about as good as it gets. You can have my tivo when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

you know lirc supports the remote that comes with the pvr-250. It works great on my box.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Wakko Warner]

Want to skip commercials?

You can't do this with a DirecTivo? Since when?

Want to NOT deal with corporate slime like DirecTV who sue people for buying smart cards even when they had no intention of using them for stealing DirecTV signals?

This is totally beside the point and has nothing to do with the PVR discussion. What legitimate use does a hacked smart card have on the DirecTV network? Why shouldn't a company sue or press charges against a user who is not only violating their terms of service, but also depriving them of revenue by using such a device?

- A.P.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Ondo]

Personally, I did it because I wanted to be able to burn DVD's of what I watch/record.

I did too, so I paid $70 for a network card for my TiVo so I can copy shows to my computer.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[dummondwhu]

Convenience is nice, but what if Tivo goes belly-up? What happens to the lifetime subscription at that point?

One nice thing about MythTV (or similar projects) is that you completely control the hardware configuration. If you want more hard drive space, you can pretty much add as much as you want. If you want to throw in a DVD burner, you can do it. Faster capture card, more memory, etc., etc. Its definitely a project, but there is an upside.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Trixter]

I can suck shows off of my $399 ReplayTV (lifetime included), edit, and burn to DVD because it has 10mbit built-in. Not only that, but the hardware MPEG encoder is one of the best I've seen in a consumer device. For a price like that, why bother building your own?

Re:Don't do it for cost

[gfxguy]

Actually, as someone who can't afford any of this right now, I think editing out commercials before burning the CD makes it more than worthwhile...

All those Simpson's episodes... all those commercials. Moreso when you consider they are in sindication (they edit out content to make more room for commercials).

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely agree with this. The only way rolling your own can be considered cheaper is if you price your time at $0/hr.

Let's say you want a small, quiet machine that makes no more noise than your old VCR. That right there rules out most off-the-shelf systems. You'll need to go with something like a Via M10000 motherboard ($175), a quiet mini-ITX case ($85), a 160 gig hard drive ($100 if you're lucky and get rebates), 512 megs of RAM ($100), keyboard/mouse ($25), and tuner card ($50), and CD-ROM ($25).

Wow. Not even started and you've spent $560 plus tax/shipping.

"But I've already got a fast computer!"

I'm sure you do but what happens when you want to play a game? Sorry. Can't play UT right now. I'm recording Springer and I don't want to get any dropped frames. I've got a half hour window coming up at 9:30, tho.

And even if you've got a spare machine sitting around that can do this and you don't mind drawing 100+ watts 24/7, all of the software packages have quirks and bugs. You simply won't be able to "set it and forget it". Somethig will crash, you'll need to install a security update, one of the programs will have a memory leak.

Bottom line: If you want a Tivo, get a tivo. And get the lifetime service. Schmucks pay monthly. If you ever decide Tivo's not for you, you'll recover 100% of the lifetime subscription cost when you sell on ebay. Probably more since they bump the price up $50 every couple of years. My $250 subscription would now add $300 to the value of my unit if I sold it on ebay. Same with people who got it back at the $199 price point. It's better than gold.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[kent_eh]

Of course not.
I want to do it because there are no TIVO like boxes available for sale in Canada (except one that is built into a satellite reciever).

If us Canucks want a PVR, we either have to go cross-border-shopping for something that doesn't require a subscription (which is not available for sale to us) or hack together something.
Which option do you suppose yer typical Canadian Slashdotter will go with?

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Dalroth]

You're a fool if you don't get the PVR-350. The video out is stunningly better than all the other options I've seen (and it only costs about $20 more). The MythTV/IVTV support is still flakey, and there's no mplayer support yet, but don't let that stop you. The video quality is absolutely worth a few months of extra bugginess!

Re:Don't do it for cost

[laird]

I agree - for a non-technical user, a TiVo is both cheaper and easier to use.

But for a mildly technical user who likes to push the boundaries, the MythTV is a wonderful thing. It's ALMOST as easy to use as a TiVo and lets you do all sorts of cool things, like RIP a DVD to an MPEG4 video stream with one click of an IR remote. Yes, setting the MythTV up is too much work, but either you enjoy that sort of thing (I do), or you can get a preconfigured install CD that sets it all up for you. It's only a matter of time until someone starts selling pre-built, pre-configured MythTV boxen.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[captainstupid]

Your link is busted, but most lifetime sub units on ebay are hacked. It's nearly trivial to trick your directivo into thinking it has a lifetime sub. (Not that I've done it, I GLADLY pay $5/month for the functionality tivo gives me)

Re:Don't do it for cost

[dventimi]

no solution comes close to the ease of use of TiVo. There is nothing that compares to Wish Lists and Season Passes

Snapstream comes very close to, and in some respects bests, the functionality and ease of use of Tivo. It's easy install and maintain, has been as reliable as Tivo (I own both), and includes some options not found in Tivo:

• Commercial skip buton
• Transcoding
• Better screen overlays
• Snappier response, especially in program grid
• Remote admin and scheduling for free, unlike pricey Tivo option
• Stream content over the web
• Interface more intuitive than Tivo's
• No unwanted content foisted on you, unlike Tivo's damn ads!!

My only concern with Snapstream is, what do I do for program info if the company folds? Oh well, it's inexpensive and good while it lasts.

Cheers,
David

Re:Don't do it for cost

[babyrat]

Total $398... And you don't have to do any work.

that's great if you have directTV. For those that don't TIVOs are significantly more expensive.

I had DISH and their PVR (not as functional as a Tivo) and got hooked. But then I had to go back to the cable world for broadband and found myself missing the PVR so I hooked up an old PC with a $30 ATI all-in-wonder and a 200 GB HD ($130) and showshifter($50) with digiguide ($10) and xmltv (free) and DGShow (free). Didn't take more than a couple of hours to get everything installed and setup - $220 plus a doorstop I wasn't using anyways. And it's an MP3 player, and a game-y type machine, with web browsing and email.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[ivan256]

TiVo software upgrades are free. Hardware upgrades are what you pay for.

Also, don't expect a hard drive that's constantly writing to last forever.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[ivan256]

Hmm.. I skip commercials on my DirecTiVo. I've never gotten a legal threat for hacking and extending my unit (yes, I've modified it, which I consider control), I don't have any desire to burn throwaway shows to DVD-R, and if I did I'd get a DVD recorder and hook it up to my TiVo, and there's no way you're getting a digital stream to a hard drive in a viewable manner without DRM right now, with software that is free or commercially available. You aren't going to get anywhere close to the picture quality on a home built unit compared to a DirecTiVo, because you have to decode and reencode the signal; Plus, you still have the DRM in your reciever anyway.

Most of all, none of this addresses the fact that the only reason this guy said he wanted to build his own was price.... And that's what I was talking about. You're not going to get a cable or sattelite company to subsidise your hardware if you build it yourself. He's probably paying for cable anyway, so why turn down free money?

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Eccles]

You missed this story.

it must have something to do with providing TV signals; DirecTV is even more evil than your average cable company.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[jfengel]

To get the $99 TiVo you have to get DirecTV service, which is pretty pricey. By itself it costs $300 MSRP, though Amazon wants only $220 and Circuit City $250.

That's still comparable to the system described, though I'm not sure how many gigabytes 40 hours is, so I can't compare the storage. The 80 hour one is around $350.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[rot26]

This is totally beside the point and has nothing to do with the PVR discussion. What legitimate use does a hacked smart card have on the DirecTV network? Why shouldn't a company sue or press charges against a user who is not only violating their terms of service, but also depriving them of revenue by using such a device?

Actually, it's neither off-topic nor beside the point. DirectTV hasn't been suing people for having hacked smart cards... they've been suing people for buy smart card writers, which are only used for hacking smart cards in incredibly rare instances. It's EXACTLY the same as if MPAA were suing owners of DVD recorders, with no proof (even indirect) of any illegal activity. I have two smart card writers sitting on my desk now, and I've never owned a dish of any type. You should understand what you're ranting about before you post. DirecTV has , in fact, been extremely obnoxious in that regard.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Blahbbs]

You forgot the $699 cost for the Linux license.

Not so cheap now, eh?

Re:Don't do it for cost

[ivan256]

The DirecTiVo records at highest quality only and gets just over an hour to the gigabyte. An 80 hour standard TiVo has capacity listed at the lowest (intolerable) quality setting.

DirecTV is cheaper than cable almost everywhere unless you have more than 3 TVs, and you can get the equipment for free. If you don't have cable or satelite, you're not going to be filling 80 hours with stuff you want to watch anytime soon.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[manplusdog]

>Time to train wife how to boot into the right shell?

My 3 Year old, has one, seriously.

He doesnt need to boot into the right shell gdm has a autologon capacity .xsession starts freevo for me automatically
3yo chooses movies using arrow keys

wife loves it

3yo watches waayyyy too much tv now.

cost, second hand computer - 800 celeron???
install fedora 1/2 hour
install freevo 1/2 hour

Wife gets fancy new 2200 athlon for $AUD300

now tell me again how hard it is.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[bertrandom]

Because they're suing people that just purchased smart cards, not necessarily programming them with DirecTV data.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Jardine]

I want to do it because there are no TIVO like boxes available for sale in Canada (except one that is built into a satellite reciever).

Rogers just came out with a PVR. It replaces the digital cable box. Price is a bit steep though. $600 for the PVR compared with $200 for the normal digital cable box. Or you can rent it for $25/month. The regular box is $10/month.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Its only $50 at Expert Satellite.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Want to burn your shows to DVD-R/VCD and share with friends?

Then buy one of these.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Rob Parkhill]

Actually, you can get an RCA Scenium 7000 (or whatever the new model number is) at FutureShop. It uses the free Guide+ data. It has a built-in progressive scan DVD player. It doesn't have the "smart" recording like TiVO and SageTV.

The catch is that you can't really use it with satellite (it grabs the guide data off the cable or over-the-air broadcast), and you only get 3 days of guide data at a time. But there is no subscription, and it works just fine all over Canada.

Don't want to pay the $700+ FutureShop is asking? Amazon.com has them for under $250 US.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Ryan Amos]

Because when they raided (or rather, greased some palms so the FBI would raid) easybuy2000 and other similar websites that sold smart card writers, they took the customer databases and sued everyone who bought one. Nevermind there are a ton of legit uses for smartcard writers (though there probably are a lot more illegitimate ones.)

Re:Don't do it for cost

[timeOday]

. The screen scrapers for TV guide data are constantly breaking as the scrapees change their format.

I fully expected this when I wrote my own for yahoo tv a year ago. Surprisingly, I haven't had to fix it yet.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Johnathon_Dough]

It's not a cheap solution, but it was the best for my luddite girlfriend who loves tivo...

Pioneers DVD-R/TiVo combo.

she has gone nuts with the recording of movies, tv shows, etc.
It sort of reminds me of the napster heydey (shhh don't tell MPAA) our movie collection has grown by over 100 in less than a month.

although, i must say, many of these movies have not been released on dvd, or, we would not buy anyways, but it is nice to own some cheese-tastic movies (who's going to BUY Commando?, but at the same time it is enjoyable to watch once in a blue moon)

none of this one to one crap of stand alone dvdr's, and it is kind of neat to see the TiVo interface on a dvd.

The downside?
$899 price tag.
Although in all fairness, 80gig tivo and a DVD-R seperate is over that.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[buck_wild]

"Want to burn your shows to DVD-R/VCD and share with friends?"

Need to do some research before commenting.

Here's a how-to article: http://trilight.net/dvdguides/tivo/DataPort.htm

Re:Don't do it for cost

[buck_wild]

Try the Sony SVR2000. It's standalone, and I bought mine for $199.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Running something truly productive on Linux: priceless

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Re:Don't do it for cost

[SethJohnson]

If Tivo goes belly-up, you can bet your bottom dollar that people will reverse-engineer the program-listing updater and provide a workaround probably based on the XMLTV that MythTV uses. Not only that, but imagine all the used Tivo units that would be for sale for $5 or less apiece!

People already can reverse-engineer the guide data updater, but out of respect for Tivo's business model, no one has provided a publicly-available hack.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo stores recordings in a proprietary (encrypted?) format. The problem is playing them, not getting them off the drive.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[jared_hanson]

Sounds like you got pretty lucky. The same scraper is used for both Freevo and MythTV. Its written in perl and gets info from zap2it, or something like that. I had to update it once in the month I expirimented with them, which was a half year ago or so. According to the mailing list, it wasn't an uncommon occurance for the format to change.

Just my experience.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[UltiSkeeter]

I've put together a Shuttle SN41G2 with an AMD 2100+ and 512 M RAM Recently, Snapstream ( http://www.snapstream.com/) added a Canadian channel to their Program Guide and it's great. However, it does cost. $60 but it works very well and has an excellent Wife utilization factor to boot!

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Fallen Kell]

Yes, but that only has a very limited capability to edit the video as well as only burn using a single format (in pioneers case, DVD-R/RW) whereas I can do DVD -/+ R/RW. Also, don't forget that the ability to apply low pass filters to the audio and video before burning to DVD does a great job in cleaning up the video/audio signal before putting it on media.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[uradu]

Who carries that Coolermaster case in the US? Looks pretty nice. I've also seen a stylish case at NewEgg, athough $229 is a bit rich for just a case without even a PS. I'm considering just using an old CD player case, which is really cheap and would look even more integrated in the rack.

Also, you really need 256MB for MythTV, but that's only a few $ more. And it seems I'd rather spend that $80 on a beefier processor than the TV card, since with a 2+GHz you definitely shouldn't have performance problems and the extra power comes in handy with other things as well.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Because sometimes trolls are too easy. :)

Ever here of NASA? No?

You know, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration? No?

How the the guys who fly the rocketship to the moon? Yeah those guys!

They use linux.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[buck_wild]

I'd help you out there, but my favorite site (www.dassess.com) has been taken offline.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Christopher Bibbs]

Minor quibble with your prices. 256MB is the minimum so you'll need to double that cost. You also seem to have forgotten to buy a processor and an optical drive. I'd estimate the minimum cost to be closer to $500 plus any tax or S&H. Oh, plus it'd be large, nosiy, and nasty to look at. Most of the better mythtv set-ups use sleek looking cases with quiet fans so they don't stick out in a home theater.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[ArizonaJer]

But, to my knowledge, those TiVo/burner units do not work with DirecTV.

If I could find a TiVo/burner/DirecTV unit I'd buy it today! (And if there were one that transcoded TiVo/DirecTV's MPEG2 stream directly to the DVD's MPEG2...)

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

You aren't going to get anywhere close to the picture quality on a home built unit compared to a DirecTiVo, because you have to decode and reencode the signal;

You have one major negative going IMHO: you're using DirecTV. It may sound petty and naive, but I maintain a blacklist of companies I refuse to ever do business with and DirecTV is on there. Why? It's not because of what you'd think (suing people for buying smartcards, etc.). No, I hate DirecTV because they sent me to a collections agency. So I'm a deadbeat right? No... in fact I've never even had their service! It turns out a few years ago I had *tried* to sign up with Telocity for DSL, went through the whole order process, waited and waited for months. Their excuse? Insufficient facilities to support the DSL so they cancelled the order. Just up and cancelled it after 4 months and 25 calls to their service department. OK fine, case close. Order cancelled, no DSL from Telocity. Fast forward a year when Telocity becomes DirecTV DSL, inherit new billing system... guess who is in there who hasn't been paying for a year? Yep, me.

First run to the collection agency. I straightened it out with only 2 hours of my time bouncing back and forth between billing departments at DirecTV. Fast forward another year. DirecTV DSL is dead and they're cleaning through old records. Guess who goes to the collection agency for being 2 years over due? Yep, me. So fuck DirecTV. If they can't get billing for a god damn non-existent DSL user right, why would I ever trust them to bill my satellite correctly? I'm a proud and happy WideOpenWest cable subscriber, I don't need multiple receivers to receive the analog cable channels (which feeds 3 tuners in my PVR), and I'm not subject to a sleezy company and their satellite signal rain fade.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[chainsaw1]

At least solid-state HD's are an option with the freeware version :-).

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Deven]

It sounds like the Telocity DSL people were incompetent, and maybe those same people were handling the billing when it became DirecTV DSL? I've had DirecTV for at least 5-6 years, and DirecTV receivers with TiVo for at least 2-3 years, but I've never had any problems with DirecTV's billing.

DirecTV is undeniably the best type of TiVo because of the 100% perfect recording quality and efficient disk space utilization, not to mention the dual tuners.

It sounds like you had a bad experience with one business unit of DirecTV (which started independent), but maybe you shouldn't blacklist the whole company for that. That's a bit like refusing to buy a GE microwave because too many GE lightbulbs burned out on you...

Re:Don't do it for cost

[JDevers]

The link works, you just have to remove the space before the = sign...

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying then is your link is broken. Dumbass.

"My link works but you just need to change it into something it's not"

Re:Don't do it for cost

[armb]

> no TIVO like boxes available for sale in Canada (except one that is built into a satellite reciever).

Same in the UK. If you have Sky satellite, there's the Sky+, but you can no longer buy Tivo boxes (they still support existing subscribers).

The Pace Twin is supposed to get a seven day EPG soon, but even then won't really have the power of a Tivo from what I understand. (Though a home-built might not either.)
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=5 d932448.03 03170444.3313ad18%40posting.google.com

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Noksagt]

I got my ReplayTV 5040 with lifetime for $281. Show me a HTPC that is cheaper and does at least the same amount of stuff as this unit does & I'd build it.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Lumpy]

havent tried freevo lately have you.

One of the units I have working has been un-touched for over 2 months now. the only thing that changes is that XMltv needs to be updated once in a while so I scripted that... ftp,untar,./configure,make,make install. I have a 5 day window from when it happens to when I run out of guide data. hell I might just make it a button on the web frontend.

I was able to install it and configure it within one evening and it just works. 100 hour storage, read from DVD's that have shows stored on them, it rip's my audio cd's for me, I can play MAME games on it, as well as view my digital photo-album.

I get at least 70 features that are not available on any tivo, plus I get a type of season pass functionality (favorite. so it records a rerun once in a while... select,delete,yes... ohh lookit it's gone!)

the useless features of the tivo like pause live tv dont really matter. in fact I built one of these units for a Tivo loving friend that doesn't miss that feature and now loves his freevo more than he ever liked his tivo (from his windows machine he can download and burn to CD divx files of good-eats.)

plus there is no DRM, is progressive scan capable (freevo has a SVGA out that many HD tv's support plus can use a deinterlace/scaler app that is the reason many build a htpc in the first place.

a freevo box really isn't a htpc, i build them as freevo-replacements minus the DRM and silly company control.

Hell, I can see someone selling them and making a killing to joe-public! send your users a CD to update the unit or a script to connect ot your "subscription" service that updates their freevo box with latest software.

freevo is exactly what I have been looking for and is what tivo should have been.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[unitron]

So if you don't own a dish, but you do have a satellite receiver, can you hack it to read smart cards encoded with data having nothing to do with satellite tv subscriptions?

Re:Don't do it for cost

[rot26]

I'm not sure what you mean, but I think my answer would be "I don't know", in any case.

From what I've read about hacking sat tv, it's a fairly sophisticated operation, requiring equipment that's only available in a few labs.. (tunnelling scanning electron microscopes, lasers that can peel away protective layers one molecule at a time, etc), definitely NOT for amateurs. (I am assuming that's for reverse-engineering the encryption, when can then be used to create smart cards using regular readers, but I don't know for sure.)

I use smart cards for fairly mundane purposes; primarily payroll systems, time-lock cash vaults, and building security. I just hate that DirectTV has had the power to associate smart cards so strongly with hacking their product, because that's such an insignificant factor in the grand scheme of things. They have used drama and intimidation, a-la RIAA, to further their goals in a very unsavory way, and worst of all, they seem to have pretty much gotten away with it.

A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Tony Hoyle]

Hmm... PC $600 + about a month configuring it to work as a PVR.
Tivo + Lifetime sub $300-$400

I know which I'd go for...

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[jrockway]

Uh, I have an Athlon 3000+ with 1G of RAM that I paid $600 for. Surely a Celeron and 256M would suffice. So I'd say $200 for a nice PVR-Computer. That's less than $400. Hell, you could get TWO for the same price as a Tivo.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[thuh Freak]

recalculation:
pc which has already paid for itself through years of service, eduation and pr0n access (read: service, eduation). add a ~200 piece of hdwr + free software onto the already wonderful computer.

result: realize that the time it took to research, find, play with, install, and eventually setup the diy box. now the tivo looks cheaper. factor in the fact that it will be a fun project: scale looks a bit more balanced.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[garcia]

Lifetime is a long time. I am guaranteed that my PC's service will at least last for as long as the hardware holds up and the software is still backed up somewhere in my house.

I just don't trust that Tivo will be around for my lifetime.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Tony Hoyle]

Minimum spec on a PVR is a lot more than a celeron.

For instance, for the SageTV thing mentioned earlier they state:

MPEG 2 capable receiver (the ones listed on sagetv are analogue ones... really you need one that can do satellite or at least DVB) - minimum $100. To be the same quality as Tivo you'd need one that's RGB in and oh dear they don't exist.
PIII-600 256M - $100ish depending on where you get it.
Video card with TV Out - $50
Big hard drive - at least 120GB - $100

That's $350 *before* you've put in the cost of the rest of the PC... Shuttle cases for example are $100 a throw.

Then there's the noise factor. Tivos are whisper quiet... To make a PC that quiet wou can easily add another $100 onto the base price.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno what you're smoking man... I spent about $450 on my pvr in a microatx case w/ a celly 2.6 and a dvd+/-r in it...

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ThePretender]

Worse yet, it isn't YOUR lifetime. It is the lifetime of the Tivo unit itself. I wouldn't trust that it would be around for as long as you are, not by a longshot.

However, I have to say that mine has been around since shortly after the company started selling them and is going strong. Had I had a crystal ball I would have bought the lifetime subscription. But then it would have crapped out three days after the warranty expired.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[jjshoe]

half hour setup time (RTFM) $0
High quality PVR card $200
PC $0

benefits of learning? priceless.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ivanmarsh]

Until Tivo goes out of business.

Plus the cost of a phone line which I currently don't have or need in my house.
Plus god knows what kind of statistics they're grabbing from you.
Plus a complete lack of expansion.

Give a man a Tivo and he watches for a day.
Build a man an open source PVR and he watches for a lifetime.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[MrAngryForNoReason]

Minimum spec on a PVR is a lot more than a celeron.

PIII-600 256M - $100ish depending on where you get it.

A Celeron won't cut it but a PIII-600 will? I don't really see a PIII-600 beating a 2.4ghz Celeron. Which you could get along with 256mb of cheap DDR for about $100.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ClioCJS]

Oh no! Don't let the statistics get me!

(puts on tin foil hat)

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[workindev]

You can get a DirecTivo for less than $50 and only pay $5/month for Tivo service. So for your nice PVR-computer price of $200, you can get a Tivo and over 2 years of service. Plus that $5/month covers all the Tivo receivers you have.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Tony Hoyle]

Half hour?

Just getting the dependencies right for MythTV (most of which are *not* documented) took about half a day.

Then there's the kernel patches for the card... at least two different ones, none of which compiled cleanly and had to be manually hacked.

For the price of your 'high quality' card you could have bought a Tivo, you know... they sell for half that.

Learning is irrelevant - the OP was trying to save money, not learn.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[the_consumer]

What about the TV tuner card? Those aren't free. You'll also probably want at least 80GB of storage. And you need a decent looking case, since this thing needs to be within line of site of your remote (unless you get a card that uses a uhf remote, if there are such things). So, mobo, case, tv card, 256MB ram, celery, network card, power supply, and 80GB drive for $200? Hook me up!

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[RicoX9]

Your math is somewhat flawed. Tivo ($149) + lifetime ($299) = $448 + TAX. That's only if you get the 40 GB version, add $100 for the 80 GB.

You're better off spending that $100 on a larger hard disk (bout 100GB for $100), and hacking it in.

You negelect to tell people one thing: Standard warranty on any Tivo/DirecTivo is 90 DAYS. Tivo lifetime subscription is linked to the box. Day 91, if your box burns up, you're out the whole bill. The only way you can transfer your subscription is if the box dies and is REPLACED BY THE MANUFACTURER UNDER WARRANTY. Many, many people have been burned by this.

I am a Tivo (series 1) owner. I'm going to build a MythTV box because I can't bring myself to blow another $500 on a single use box that I can't even web browse or play DVD's on. If the experiment fails, I have a PC for my daughter. If it works, I still have a PC for my daughter that also happens to record TV.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[paul_pick1]

Unfortunately, Tivo is only available in the US and UK... so the rest of us have to go to strange lengths like building our own pvr or smuggling a tivo across the border, eh? :-)

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[jpmkm]

If you use a good packaging system then dependencies are no problem. I don't want to sound like a gentoo whore, but all i had to type was emerge mythtv mythfrontend. Bam. TV tuner card was bt878 based so that worked with the default kernel(although I've upgraded several times now).

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Tony Hoyle]

Just looking around you can get Tivo for $50 over there. Lifetime is $199 not $299... don't know where you got your figures from. Last I heard that included tax.

My Tivo warranty was something like 2 years, but I took the lid off so blew that one. 90 days would be illegal here (there are minimums for electronic devices) and I assume it's the same in the US.

If you get a Tivo replaced they *will* transfer the lifetime - there are numerous examples of that happening.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[smackjer]

I call FUD. People have been saying that Tivo will go out of business for years. Has it happened yet? Nope, they're still going strong, with Tivo devices topping many Christmas lists this year. Series 2 Tivos support USB ethernet adapters. No phone line needed. Statistics? Yeah, they know you rented Spice last night. Big deal, so does the cable company, Spice, and a million other middlemen. Lack of expansion? Are you referring to hard disk expansion? You can easily upgrade or put in a second drive.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[buffer-overflowed]

Closer to $500. And you don't need to worry about being locked into TIVO.

Oh, and you can use the same box for MAME/emulation on your TV and turn it into a complete multi-media suite (CD-playing, MP3/Ogg playing, etc.).

That's all worth about $100-$200, to me anyway.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[tigga]

I dunno what you're smoking man... I spent about $450 on my pvr in a microatx case w/ a celly 2.6 and a dvd+/-r in it...

Do you mind to put a component list with prices?

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[tigga]

One more thing -
usually PC is a way too far from TV. You need dedicated PC for it or very long cables to connect it...

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[LilMikey]

Or MythTV and a network cable to your X-Box.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[larryj]

I see your point. I took the chance in 1999. After 4 years, I've gotten my money's worth out of the lifetime subscription.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[LilMikey]

'apt-get install mythtv-suite' here... Damn, you got me by 2 characters. I guess the dependencies can be more difficult as the parent suggested :)

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[LilMikey]

I bought a Panasonic ShowStopper about 3 years ago. It's starting to go bad (freezing both in video and the occassional lock up that is only fixed by pulling the power). I replaced the hard drive in hopes that would be the key but it looks like it's not so simple. Anyway, the service was free but had I paid $250 + price of hardware for lifetime, I'd be a little pissed now.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just getting the dependencies right for MythTV (most of which are *not* documented) took about half a day.

Quit using Slackware. With Debian you do apt-get install mythtv, setup the mythtv app, and you're basically done. ;-)

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[msimm]

+ about a month configuring it to work as a PVR

Your joking, right? With the right hardware I could set you up in about a half hour, that includes installing the OS. Second thing I'd point out is the PC is upgradable and infinitely more flexable. The trade off is you have to know more about it, but this is a Slashdot forum..right?

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Z303]

Only the US now, they stopped selling them sometime this year in the UK. Have a look at this

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[tigga]

Standard warranty on any Tivo/DirecTivo is 90 DAYS.

It is not true. After 90 days they replace failed parts for free but charge for a labor. It is called limited warranty and still it is a warranty. I think it's one-year warranty.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think OP is referring more to format and standards.

When you switch to HDTV, you will, I assume, need to buy a new Tivo unit (and a new subscription?). Same if you want to add DVD recording, upgrade to MPEG4, or whatever's next.

The upgrade path for your PC based solution will probably be cheaper, because you won't need a whole new box.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[borgasm]

strange....

emerge mythtv did the trick for me

:-)

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ivanmarsh]

Are you actually suggesting that the viewing habits of everyone that owns a Tivo aren't being collected and used for marketing purposes?

With everyone up in arms over telemarketing you'd have to be a fool to think they aren't keeping track of what you watch, transmitting it through your phone line, which is required for the subscription service, which is married to your address and phone number, and selling all that information to anyone who wants it.

I work in the telemarketing industry. Trust me, that's exactly what's happening.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ivanmarsh]

I wasn't suggesting that I think Tivo is a bad company or that they are in danger of going out of business.

Just that "lifetime" only means the life of the company and no one can quarentee how long their company will be in business.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[smeat]

Got ya all beat:

urpmi mythtv

smeat!

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[CyberKnet]

Seriously... what is your problem?

MythTV is not *THAT* hard to set up. I see people on the mailing list complaining about it all the time. And usually, the reply that gets them fixed is a pointer to the appropriate place in the documentation.

I have about six months work in my MythTV box, and I only got the parts a few weeks ago. I subscribed to the mailing list for about five months before I even attempted to start the project because I had heard stories of how horrendous it was to install. I printed out a hard copy of the documentation, and two different installation tutorials. Even after that, I read through all that about three times over.

Preparation is everything, I have found. You cant expect to have something of TiVo quality without putting in a lot of work your self. You have to remember that TiVo has employed a lot of people for a long time to get where it is, and it is very far from perfect as well.

About the best thing you can do to help yourself is to subscribe to the mailing list and learn from other peoples mistakes. Here's a hint in case you didn't already get it: The #1 mistake is not reading the documentation, which lists every dependancy that you need to fulfill.

If I were to be completely honest with myself, I would be forced to concede that nobody should ever build a MythTV machine because they think it will be cheaper. It probably wont be. In fact, 99.999% of the time if you are making a dedicated box it will not be. But if someone is looking for something they can change, something they can upgrade, something for a hobby, then THAT is the person who should use MythTV.

Personally, I don't regret a single minute that I've put into my MythTV box. If I did, I think I would have to question why I was doing it in the first place. IMHO, saving money is not a good enough reason.

Disclaimer: I did save money when I built my MythTV box. I managed to find a quiet dual proc PIII 633 for $100 and two AverMedia M179's for $50 a piece. That, after trying not to buy a PVR-250 for several months. Patience is indeed a virtue. Luckily, what I lack in patience I also lack in fiscal terms too.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Wakkow]

Where do I find the $50 DirecTivos?

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ClioCJS]

Oh no!
Don't let the marketing industry get me!

(puts on tin foil hat)

Honestly... Are they going to cause you phsyical harm? They can't call you if you are on the do not call list. Junk mail doesn't force you to open it. Phones don't force you to answer. Banner ads don't force you to click them. And all of the above can be stopped. Even junk mail. (Hint: Don't take mail out of your mailbox for 3 months. This removes you from most lists. Paytrust.com can receive your bills for you. Mail driver's licenses and such to friends/family.)

Seriously... I would love to be a Nielsen family and have my viewing habits collected by somebody, anybody. It's like being part of a democracy. Why do you think there is so much crap on tv? Partially because they don't know everyone's viewing habits. I think most of the Neilsen families must be white trash, personally.

The marketing industry can go fuck themselves. But I'm not going to deny any functionality to me, ever, just because of them. If I did, they would have already won.
The reality is I do not listen to marketing. I mute tv commercials. I don't listen to the radio. I don't read banner ads. I don't answer the phone (screen/caller id). I don't buy CDs or movies. I don't buy electronics from Best Buy (fuckers). Marketing barely affects me. Do I care if my banner ads are custom tailored to my interest due to someone "tracking" me? Nope. I'm not going to read the banner anyway, and even if I do, now it's more likely to interest me. NOT that I would ever buy anything via a banner clickthrough.

To put things in perspective, my friends generally consider me the most paranoid person they know (for other reasons), but I could give a fuck what tivo does with my viewing habits. Hopefully submits them to the networks so they can stop airing all this reality tv bullshit..... Tho.. Paris Hilton is fucking hot (gee I hope that doesn't discredit my entire post...).

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Expert Satellite has DirecTivos starting at $50 for a dual LNB dish, or $70 for a Tri LNB dish.

And that includes free installation, free shipping (after rebate), and a free DVD player.

I ordered mine 2 months ago when they dropped to this price and have been in DirecTV heaven ever since.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Jonboy X]

1 word: Gentoo. Not to come off as another Gentoo zealot or anything, but it's easy as "emerge mythtv" when you're running Gentoo.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[starfall-elf]

To be fair, parts are covered for 1 year. And they will transfer a lifetime subscription if necessary for any authorized repair, in or out of warranty. They'll also do it for swaps under 3rd party extended warranties.

There are also 3rd party companies that will repair TiVos. The majority of the failures are either bad hard drives or bad modems. The former can be fixed simply by replacing the drive and reloading the software (though see the other thread about TiVo cracking down on downloadable images). For a bad modem, you can fix the motherboard, use an external modem, or install a network adapter and get updates over the internet.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[topham]

Tivo iss collecting it, and it is being used for marketing purposes. Anonymously. They have repeatedly stated as much.

You can also call them up and request they not collect the info.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[theedge318]

See what I want to know is can you get dual PVR-250's running. All the documentation I see is about just getting one running (the tiny bit of extra work is totally worth it)

This would make me one happy clam, b/c inevitably even shows in different hours can conflict .. I wish they synched all the channels ...

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Was the warranty for the same lifetime? Ergo, device broken means warranty expired?

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ssstraub]

Series 2 Tivos support USB ethernet adapters. No phone line needed.

Lack of expansion?

I believe you just answered your own question.

Do Series 1 TiVos get this USB ethernet adapter option? What about the HMO? Oh, you say you have to throw out your series 1 and get a series 2 now to get this functionality? Can we expect this every year or two?

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[the uNF cola]

Electric bill for a pc MAY be higher unless you use something very low end too.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[smackjer]

Why would you expect "this" every year or 2? Now that they have USB, I doubt they're going to remove it. Series 1 Tivos don't have USB, so no, they won't be able to use USB ethernet adapters. Since they no longer sell them, that's not really relevant. Where were Freevo and MythTV when Tivo Series 1 was released? If you want "expansion" stick with a PC. I don't hear anyone asking for "expansion" from their DVD player, television, or VCR.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ivanmarsh]

I don't think it's brain washing, I think it's mainly just a waste... the junk mail that is.

I DO think the Nielsen system should be replaced with cable transceivers in televisions so they know what people are watching and can improve programming based on that rather than the very small subset of people that are currently shaping what's on the tube.

As for Paris Hilton: Worst Homemade Sex Video Ever! Good god girl, let the phone ring.

Oh... and the tin foil hat thing is getting old.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[jjshoe]

So your not as good with linux as others. That does not make tivo instantly better. How about when it comes time to upgrade your tv? you have to buy a whole new system to not violate the TOS/EULA. If i want to upgrade i slap another hard drive in. I dont get programs i dont want to watch pushed to my machine anyways.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[CyberKnet]

It's no problem. The M179's are pretty much PVR-250's. You install the driver, it loads for both, and then you use /dev/video0 for one, and /dev/video1 for the other. Any calls you make to test_ioctl you have to add -d /dev/video[01] to so that they apply to that particular card.

It's really very simple... although I found the -d part not documented in any of the tutorials, but still, a quick query to #ivtv-dev on freenet cleared things up.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ivanmarsh]

They may say they're doing it anonymously, and they may be, but I wouldn't bet on it. Anonymous marketing data isn't worth much. It's nice to see you're so trusting in marketing firms though.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Moofie]

Upgrading your TELEVISION violates the TOS? Come on. I'd really like you to validate that claim, because it smells like FUD to me.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[harrv]

Actually, "lifetime" as defined by TiVo is the lifetime of the TiVo hardware you are purchasing the service for. So the actual lifetime we're talking about is the lifetime of the hardware or the lifetime of the company, whichever is shorter. It has nothing to do with the lifetime of the human making the purchase.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[jjshoe]

i put in tv when i ment tivo.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ssstraub]

You are right, but I'm just saying that's what the parent meant about lack of expansion. You then went on about series 2, but that isn't really an expansion--it's a complete replacement.

I guess the point here is that you have to keep buying a completely new tivo, whereas with a pc-based pvr, you can just add a part or a software package.

Of course none of this applies to your Joe Average user, only tech-savvy DIY'ers, who have the time for it.

It will be tough

[Anonymous Coward]

It is tough to build a good one for cheaper than a TiVO. To build a PVR, you basically have to build a computer. To build a computer with a TV card in it, you will probably need more than $300. You'll need a large hard drive and a decent processor (1.6Ghz or higher is my guess). You can probably skip out on getting a dvd drive and cd drive if you don't them, so that might help the cost a little.

Re:It will be tough

[wozster]

You'll need a large hard drive and a decent processor (1.6Ghz or higher is my guess).

Not true (about the processor) - The Hauppauge PVR-350 and PVR-250 do all the processing onboard.

Here's a good resource: HTPCNews.com

Budget

[Teckla]

If budget is important, consider estimating electricity costs in a do-it-yourself solution. You might be surprised how much money worth of electricity a PC can use in just a year.

As an example, I've seen people "save money" by reusing old PC's as firewalls instead of buying a cheap $50 unit that does the same job. They're spending more money in electricity than it would have cost to buy the dedicated unit.

-Teckla

Re:Budget

[Coaster-Sj]

Well that may be true but how much do you learn from slapping in a little linksys router with the default config and letting it go. Building a router yourself is much more involved and may actually require thinking. Also the cost is spread out over a longer period paying for the electricity. Although if somehow your not the one paying for the electricity who cares.

Re:Budget

[AKAImBatman]

As an example, I've seen people "save money" by reusing old PC's as firewalls instead of buying a cheap $50 unit that does the same job. They're spending more money in electricity than it would have cost to buy the dedicated unit.

A fair enough point. But if I may, you're assuming that the firewall is ONLY going to be a firewall. Many of us use these old machines as combination firewall, NAT, FTP server, Web Server, CVS server, DHCP server, etc. That old PC can provide a very powerful internet front end and home collaboration point that a $50 box just can't do.

By the same token, a DIY PVR has advantages in areas such as network streaming and cool plugins like MAME. Not to mention that you can now change things you don't like. For example, let's say I don't like the way TIVO's "record show" feature works. With a DIY model, I might scrape the TV Guide site and match records based on a regular expression. As a Sci-Fi buff, it would be great to record any shows with the name "Space" in it. And if I don't like the results (e.g. Trading Spaces), I can tweak the filters to my liking.

Re:Budget

[Remlik]

Why won't you people learn to use google.com before running off your mouths about half truths and FUD.

Seattle City Light has a nice page which shows the bi-monthly costs of many household items.

A typical computer drawing a constant 300watts (most computers draw significantly less) for 2 hours a day will cost ~$2.40 bi-monthly.

Granted a firewall would probably be running 24x7 it would likely not be drawing 300 continous watts..a smart monkey might even build one without a HDD and thus draw even less power.

How many months can I run a PC as a firewall before I meet the $200 price tag for a dedicated unit that is obsolete the instant you open the box?

Re:Budget

[satanami69]

And is http://www.datadino.com/ running on said combo firewall?

I hope you patch every hour on the hour.

Firewalls should do one thing, be a firewall.

Re:Budget

[AKAImBatman]

And is http://www.datadino.com/ running on said combo firewall?

No. I have a hosting provider for DataDino. It would be foolish for me to host it myself when I can simply pay someone else to do it. My home firewall is for family and friend use, such as photos, my wife's recipe database, Squirrel Mail, etc.

Besides, my BSD machine needs to be patched FAR less than comparable Windows and Linux machines. Especially because I'm using stable (read: older) versions of everything that have had most of the bugs knocked out. Dangerous services (e.g. Telnet) are either turned off or firewalled. Sure, I may not have the latest and greatest features, but that's not always a necessity.

Re:Budget

[sl0w]

Don't forget about the friggin heat that a pc will put out vs. a tivo unit. I built a small formfactor unit, complete with ATI AIW 9600 (didn't know about Myth at time of purchase) and it has been great! For those who "mistakenly" built a home entertainment PC using windows and love the look/feel/functionality of MythTv try http://myhtpc.net/

Re:Budget

[Pieroxy]

How many months can I run a PC as a firewall before I meet the $200 price tag for a dedicated unit that is obsolete the instant you open the box?

Hmmm, first of all, an out of the box firewall is not $200, but more like $50. You can even find cheaper.

Let's compute the cost of a PC running 24x7 for you. Your number is here for a 300watt PC. At idle time, it will draw approx half of that: That's $1.20 bi-monthly, or .60 monthly. That's two hours/day. For 24, we need to multiply by 12. .60x12 = 7.2. Giving that your machine is most likely not IDLE all the time, we can round it to $10/month

So there you go: 5 month to reach the price of an out of the box unit, whose power consumption is so lower than 150watt that it is negligible here.

Of course, that was under the assumption that your PC can get idle. If you're talking about your old P166, there is most likely no HDD idle timeout and no CPU idle time. So you can bet on a $15/month electric bill increase.

Re:Budget

[Bangback]

A really cool toy for measuring this is the "Watts Up" power meter. $130 is pricy, but it accurately calculates power usage over time and will translate into dollars if you set it to your electric rate. You have to have a lot of gear to hit $3-4 a month. A P90 firewall with no monitor is probably 95W.

Re:Budget

[jms]

Yeah, but on the other hand, it helps to heat the house in the winter.

No, really.

Re:Budget

[Anonymous Coward]

I's true you spend more money by recycling a PC to use as a fire wall, but I have learned alot about installing the firewall, rules, routing and NATing than if I used a $50 dollar unit. What's that worth? Also, is it true that information on all of your interactions with the tivo unit are monitored by the folks at tivo? If this is true then building one of your own has value beyond the dollar cost. What's your privacy worth.

Re:Budget

[SubtleNuance]

They're spending more money in electricity than it would have cost to buy the dedicated unit
Not if theyve disconnected the fans and run LRP.

Re:Budget

[mbourgon]

Depends on your needs. I use mine for much more than simple firewall functionality - downloading stuff just announced on slashdot, ICQ, remote access to my house, etc.

The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[Zanguinar]

The only reason I'm still trying to keep my old Panasonic Showstopper ReplavTV alive is that MythTV and FreeVo don't yet have the capability to control an external digital cable or DirecTV box. I think there was some project that had rudimentary channel-changing capabilities for DirecTV via serial interface, but I think it was still pretty alpha. As soon as these projects can do that, I'm building a homebrew so I can cancel my land line phone...

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[strags]

Sure they do. I am using this functionality on my MythTV box right now.

When MythTV wants to change channel on the cable box, it calls a user-definable external script. I use LIRC to emit the IR control codes to switch channels on my General Instruments cable box.

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[r1ckt3r]

Uh, you obviously haven't done your homework as MythTV most certainly can control digital cable and satellite boxes via IRblaster for some time now. Not to say it's as simple as other solutions, but please don't spread false data.

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[Wehesheit]

I'm in the exact same boat. I don't want to buy a DirecTivo but I need a box that can change my DTV channels.

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[deque_alpha]

Try doing it the other way. Have your Direct TV box control the PVR with the auto-tune/auto VCR function. It seems pretty simple so far, I am about 1/3 of the way through my project doing exactly this.

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[homerules]

There is support for external channel changing in lirc and is used by many people. It can be both serial or IR blaster.

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out the documentation for LIRC and MythTV... you may be surprised.

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[wren337]

What does it use for the IR transmitter, did your PVR card come with one or did you buy a seperate one? Is it USB to the PC?

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[strags]

I soldered up a simple one from the LIRC website, but I believe there are commercial implementations available.

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm using DirecTV in my MythTV setup and using the serial control for the DirecTV IRD. This control is hardly rudimentary, as you can do ALOT more via the serial interface than you can with even the remote (like setting the time of the Myth box in sync with the DTV).

Re:The one pitfall for homebrew PVRs...

[FryGuy1013]

Alternatively, a much more reliable method is using one of the serial cable controls if your box supports it at all. I bought a $5 DB-9 RJ-11(?) converter for my RCA DirecTV tuner, and it was just a matter of setting the tuner up to use the cable instead of "Home Control" mode, and a perl script to open /dev/ttyS0 (search the mythtv-users mailing list for RCA.pl if you have this one)

Simple Solution...

[MoeMoe]

How very ironic... I just bought an ATI All In Wonder 7500 for the exact same intention (and late night frag sessions ofcourse)... Just get a video card with a built-in TV tuner... The one I bought was under $100!!!!

Re:Simple Solution...

[KUHurdler]

I have an AIW 7500. The word I would most use to describe it is: Disappointing

Re:Simple Solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

As not to whore I'll AC

<paranoia>
Please tell me why, I may still have time to cancel the order! What was wrong with it? Is it decent atleast for gaming? Does the tuner have bad issues?
</paranoia>

I also needed to know if it came with an analog converter because I don't see a port in back... Thanks

Re:Simple Solution...

[KUHurdler]

mine came with an analog converter. and a remote.

-The remote works about 2 feet away from the receiver. no further
-the TV tuner works fine. for simple viewing, quality is worse than a 13" TV though.
-It's the PVR stuff that disappointed me, lots of features... tons of bugs. ATI never fixes any of them. Time shifting is use-able, not reliable.
-Video Quality of captures is way worse than a VCR.
-Guide Plus software is also buggy. (mouse pointer disappears) and updates to the schedule are manually done... they work %90 percent of the time and take 3-4 minutes.

Re:Simple Solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks alot for the help, atleast now I know what I'm getting into :)
Would you mind telling me your system specs (OS especially) to compare?

Thanks again

Re:Simple Solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've tried this on two Athlon boards
SIS 735 chipset and SIS 746 chipset.
Currently using it in the 735.
1600 XP at 138 FSB
512 MB PC2100
Windows XP Pro
C-Media onboard sound
I've used every MMC/driver combination that ATI put out since I bought the card.

I had no problems whatsoever with the 3d Video card performance, but I don't play very many different games.

Re:Simple Solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the advice, that's all I needed to know :)

Depends on how you receive listings, surely?

[Ed Avis]

The poster didn't state what country he is in, although it is probably one where Tivo is marketed. Doesn't the hardware to get depend strongly on how you receive TV listings? For analogue listings, both demodulation (VHF / UHF) and decoding the picture (NTSC / PAL / SECAM) will require different hardware, though I hope it would be comparable in price.

Or what if digital television is available where you live? Do you want to record the digital signals directly to disk? This is the classiest way to do it but it might just make the hardware _cheaper_, since no real-time video encoding is needed (only decoding).

From LinuxToday

[Pingular]

March 2003. EXACTLY the same thing.

Re:From LinuxToday

[Anonymous Coward]

...Because we all know that nothing changes in 9 months.

Re:From LinuxToday

[Anonymous Coward]

YUO = TEH FAGG0RTZZ!!1

Bulding ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello? Spell checker anyone?

Next article:

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask slashdot: Bulding a better spellchecker.

buy a fucking tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

slashbot readers like to say they support open source, want linux to rule the world, etc, but then when a company does use linux for a cool, innovative device, it's too much money, wah wah wah.

Get a job or something.

Re:buy a fucking tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

How is parent troll post scored: 5, insightful

Re:buy a fucking tivo

[An Onerous Coward]

"Funny," perhaps. But "insightful?" I've wiped more insightful commentary from the bottom of my shoe.

Now, if "How can I pirate TiVo's service to use on my non-TiVo box without paying for it, I could see where this comment would be appropriate. But just because TiVo is Linux-based, anyone who looks for another solution is somehow a hypocrite?

For shame, Mr. Coward, for shame. And you wonder why mom always liked me best?

The way I see it, TiVo has three components: The hardware, the software, and the subscriber information stream. The hardware is basically a small computer with a big hard drive, and its primary advantage over a beige box is a quality I like to call "Media center friendliness." Oh, and it comes with a remote rather than a cron daemon.

The software consists of the Linux kernel and some schnazzy proprietary interface software. The latter is what adds value to the product for most users.

The subscription information is the final piece of the whole TiVo experience, because it gives the box the ability to find stuff for you even when you didn't know it was on, and make recommendations.

So let's get this straight: TiVo provides a certain experience, but not everyone wants precisely that experience. There are plenty of reasons someone might want to build a computer with some of the capabilities of a TiVo. For example, they might want the PVR capabilities but not the features that rely on the subscription stream. Or they may want to be able to back up shows onto DVD, or rip DVDs to the box, or use the box as an all-in-one PVR/DVD player/router/firewall/webserver/gaming platform, just so that they can turn the whole thing into a flaming pile of silicon by getting it Slashdotted while it's trying to record "The Simpsons."

That's what I'd do, anyways.

Re:buy a fucking tivo

[CvD]

Excuse me, but not everyone lives in a country where TiVo is offered. Here in the Netherlands, a DIY box is your only option (there's a really expensive box from Nokia, I think; underpowered, not as configgable). So yeah... its good to have these discussions every once in a while... see what other people are doing to make their own PVRs and their experiences with these.

Re:buy a fucking tivo

[mgrennan]

And so you hit the nail on the head.

Because they are an OpenSource company and because their price is very competitive I will be buying a Tivo for xmas.

I also think, everyone who cares that they are OpenSource should let them know. I plan to write in large ornge marker accross they registeration card. BECAUSE YOU ARE OPENSOURCE!

Re:buy a fucking tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

The masses *should* buy a TiVo, but the *SMALL* /. community should, in order to further the development of GNU/Linux buy driving these smaller projects.

The Early GNU/Linux adopters (/.ers) give feedback, help code, etc etc smaller projects that end up 'feeding' the TiVos of the world.

Guide Information

[Kentamanos]

Isn't the biggest problem STILL programming guide information? Don't things like XMLTV use web sites that sometimes block IP's from using them?

Re:Guide Information

[Tony Hoyle]

It depends - I think some providers support xmltv directly.

The UK version of xmltv is pretty sucky - it's missing half the channels and there's no series information on most of them (I only managed to get 4 channels out of 30). There's a program to strip the Radio Times website of listings but it takes hours (and isn't very friendly to the website!).

You can program a Tivo using xmltv data, although the people who know how to do it (tivocanada) are pretty tight lipped about how (if you're lucky you might be able to get someone to leak you the code though).

Re:Guide Information

[Kentamanos]

The problem is that nobody will give away free TV listings out of the goodness of their heart (bandwidth etc.). They expect you to at least see a few ads. The only people that TRULY want you to know what's on TV is the various stations, and the chances of them all providing this service the same way is very slim.

If something like XMLTV became really popular due to LOTS of people using it, I think the providers that are getting banged will intentionally:

1 - Code their site to be hard to parse (and continue to change the output)
2 - Start blocking IPs
3 - Do something like free email account registration sites use (words "impossible" to OCR, etc.)

I personally have owned a TIVO for over 3 years with a lifetime subscription, and I've never regretted buying the thing.

Re:Guide Information

[liquidsin]

You call this tight lipped? It's a full step-by-step guide to doing just what you want, including source or links to who has it. Unless I'm misunderstanding you...

Re:Guide Information

[AKnightCowboy]

Don't things like XMLTV use web sites that sometimes block IP's from using them?

I've been updating nightly from Zap2it's website via XMLTV nightly and they haven't blocked me yet. Personally I wouldn't mind if they offered a pay service for $5/month for guide information. I'd buy it for my MythTV box just to get the information in a format that doesn't require me to hack around updating XMLTV every month or so when zap2it changes their website around. This gets to be a pain in the ass.

Re:Guide Information

[Dalroth]

XMLTV is a client program that runs on your computer. There's not really much they can do to tell the difference between an XMLTV script and a user browsing the web page with Internet Explorer short of forcing everybody to buy an account and login.

I've been using a MythTV box for a few months now and I've had no problems at all using XMLTV.

Bryan

Re:Guide Information

[Kentamanos]

Well, if there were LOTS of people using XMLTV (if there was one person using it for every 10 Tivos for instance) in an automated manner, zap2it would really start to analyze who is using them and how. They'd then change the way they provide their information. It would require subscription with credentials or they'd do something like "please type in the code below" like free email registration systems currently use.

So if you're currently using XMLTV and like the way it works, don't tell too many people ;). I'm not saying XMLTV isn't cool. If nothing else, they've created an XML format for TV listings that other services could easily create a plugin for at a later time. I just think if it got too popular it would stop being as reliable.

Re:Guide Information

[Dalroth]

Yeah, but if they did that, somebody somewhere would grab the information, even if they had to do it manually and put it up as a web service (even if they had to do it in a foreign country)! Mark my words! :)

That being said, I think it's pretty shitty that they try to keep this kind of information out of public hands. Honestly, what is this world coming to when you can try to monopolize the list of programs on television. Sheash...

Bryan

Re:Guide Information

[Kentamanos]

Hopefully we won't have to resort to hosting US TV programming information in Sealand :).

I don't think they're trying to monopolize it really, I think you just have to make it worth someone's time to give it away while somehow compensating for bandwidth if nothing else. Currently I guess they figure they're showing enough banner ads etc. to make it worthwhile. You could argue the whole P2P thing for some of the bandwidth issues, but someone has to "seed" it.

The only people who REALLY want you to get the guide information is each individual channel. They want you to know what's on so you might watch. The problem then would be talking to 200 or so web services all with a different interface :).

Re:Guide Information

[Anonymous Coward]

Compiling accurate daily TV guide info is time consuming and costs money; someone has to be paid to do it.

Just because you can get it for "free" doesn't mean that it is really "free of cost" to someone. If they want to charge you for it or make you prove that you aren't making money off of their service, that is their right.

You want "free" guide info, you go and compile it yourself, and give it away, and see how you like it. Odds are you'll either give up, or try to make money off of it too. Moocher ethics only goes so far (usually stopping at the point the moocher is actually required to do real work!).

Re:Guide Information

[tepples]

The problem then would be talking to 200 or so web services all with a different interface :).

Or rather 200 or so web services that follow the same interface once a popular aggregator emerges on the scene. The benefit of a channel following the most common interface is that the channel will be able to steal viewers away from other channels.

DirecTivo

[jgordon7]

Actually you probably can not get much cheaper than DirecTivo.

If you are a new sub. you can get the DirecTivo for about $50, and with a DirecTivo you only pay $4.99/month for the Tivo service (and that is for the account not the number of boxes). For me in my area DirecTV is MUCH cheaper than cable. Also the quality of a DirecTivo is far superior than any other option available for non-HDTV PVRs. It records the direct MPEG stream no encoded done on the box. Also the DirecTivo can record 2 shows at a time!

Course if you want to do it yourself you can and it would be fun, however it would most likely not be as stable, quality not as good. And you probably wont save much money if you already have cable or directv.

Re:DirecTivo

[JVert]

I'm an existing subscriber and I got one installed for $99.
Directivo has 2 tuners built into the box. So for a sattelite system it is replacing 3 boxes for a homebrew system of the same capabilities. 1 PVR box and 2 tuners. Hardware costs you can't find 2 good PC tv tuners for $100.

Re:DirecTivo

[Cyph]

You can get it pretty cheap even if you're not a new subscriber. Current subscribers can order through the DirecTV website to get a triple-LNB dish upgrade along with a Hughes HDVR2 DirecTiVo for $99 plus $14.95 shipping.

The catch, however, is that it'll tie you into a 12-month contract. The contract is not an extension on top of your current contract if you have one, but essentially a replacement of the contract, meaning that you're stuck with DirecTV in a contract for the next 12 months, whether you had any contract before ordering the deal does not make any difference.

Re:DirecTivo

[nate1138]

Don't do business with DirectTV. They are just another lawyer wielding corporation out to stomp on your rights. Have you forgotten this already? Here, refresh your memory:

One

Two

Re:DirecTivo

[tinrobot]

I totally agree. I just got the same deal last month and I'm sold.

I didn't know the $4.95 fee let you have multiple boxes. Looks like my daughter might get her very own Tivo for Christmas.

Re:DirecTivo

[duckpoopy]

And you can record 60 hours of "Searching for signal" thanks to the rain fade.

Re:DirecTivo

[jgordon7]

Well lets see, rain fade happens. But not nearly as bad as most people make it out.

I live in VA, and lost signal for maybe a total of 15 minutes during the last Hurricane.

I do not suffer rain fade just from regularly showers, it usually has to be a WHOLE lot of dense clouds in the sky. I have had DirecTV for about a year now and have only noticed rain fade about 3 times, the longest occurense was 15 minutes.

Also DirecTivo is smart enough to NOT record if the signal is completely lost. It stops and picks the show back up when the signal returns.

Re:DirecTivo

[MarkGriz]

The Directv/Tivo fee is $5/month per account, regardless of how many Tivo boxes you have. But don't forget the mirroring fee, which is $5 per DirecTV receiver (Tivo or not) beyond the first one.

DirecTV with Tivo definitely rocks. Not knocking the DIY spirit of this whole discussion, but for those of us with too many other DIY projects, Tivo is definately an awesome product. And judging by some of the hardware prices quoted for building a Tivo lookalike, it's comparatively "low budget" as well.

Re:DirecTivo

[javaxman]

Rain Fade happens only during unbelievably severe downpours, which I've seen maybe twice in 3 years ( granted, the SF bay area doesn't see much heavy rain ).

Compared to how many times my neighbor's cable system has been out, the satellite signal is rock-solid. When the cable goes out, it's usually for a *lot* longer than the rain-fade.

Re:DirecTivo

[tinrobot]

I live in LA... what rain?

I am a bit put off by the fact that many of the channels are on the east coast feed, though. Another good reason for Tivo!

Re:DirecTivo

[javaxman]

The only bad part of DirecTV is their smartcard litigation. Aside from that, DirecTV is easily the best pay TV service available in the US, and is about to get better for me when my DirecTivo is installed next week.

A word of warning- apparently DirecTV didn't realize how popular this promotion would be. I was on a waiting list for a couple of weeks before they called me back to let me know I could actually buy the thing.

DO NOT buy a DirecTivo at some retailer, at least not without checking out what is involved in installation, especially in multi-room setups ( you need a 'multiswitch', more lines of cable than you think, etc ). You'll get a better deal from DirecTV anyway, especiallly if you're a new customer.

There are also a couple of weird downsides to DirecTivo-
1) you can't buy the Tivo "Home Media Option", which 'lets' you stream tunes and slideshows from your computer to your Tivo
2) I don't know that you can get a lifetime subscription... but the monthly fee is less!

both of these 'downsides' are things which might change, and I can live with. Really, I just want Tivo so my wife can watch her "reality" shows _after_ dinner...

Re:DirecTivo

[Dalroth]

A few notes:

1. The DirecTivo can ONLY record two shows at once *IF* you have a dual LNB and TWO cables run from the dual LNB to the DirecTivo. This is NOT an option in a lot of places. You can get around this with about $400 of additional hardware, although I don't know why you'd want to spend that much.

2. DirecTivo is cheaper because it can get the MPEG4 stream straight from the satellite. No encoding in hardware, also means no encoding hardware (and DirecTV further subsidizes it to compete with cable TV on-demand programming). This means that if you decide you don't want DirecTV service anymore, you're Tivo is now a piece of worthless junk.

Anyway, don't let this stop you. DirecTV service is imho vastly superior to all other cable offerrings I've tried. It's even cheaper, has more channels, and has better more reliable picture quality than Comcast in my area. If you have DirecTV, you SHOULD definitely get the Tivo, but I still felt like I had to set the record straight.

Also, while I haven't tried their service, Dish Network supports recording multiple streams from a single line. If I were a new user, I'd give Dish network a try because of this reason alone. However, as a longtime DirecTV user I find it hard to justify locking myself into a 20 month contract to replace hardware which I already own for my DirecTV service.

Bryan

Re:DirecTivo

[Babbster]

I don't have DirecTV, but I have DishNetwork which works on the exact same principles. I live in Portland, Oregon where we have SIGNIFICANT amounts of rain from around the end of September to the beginning of May. I can count the number of times we've lost signal because of rain on one hand (over several years). Snow is a different story, but we get that pretty infrequently during the winter (usually one true storm per year).

Re:DirecTivo

[BaldingByMicrosoft]

Inclement weather degraded my Cable signal consistently worse than my DirectTV. I've only faded once during a particularly heavy rain.

Re:DirecTivo

[duckpoopy]

I live in Florida, and experience rain fade several times per month. It doesn't even have to be raining, heavy clouds will kill my signal. The signal is close to 90% when the weather is clear. This is most annoying when people come to my house to see "the big game". Otherwise the mpeg glitches are quite fun to watch, like when some background texture blocks start moving along with the motion vectors from a talking face. Much better than static!

Re:DirecTivo

[Babbster]

I don't know the details of the technology, but I wonder if some locations have more problems with this - not necessarily solely because of weater, but maybe weather combined with satellite position(s). It's also possible that DirecTV has their satellites (or certain satellites) sending out lower power signals. I should also note that I do get the occasional MPEG glitches (presumably when something interferes between the dish and the satellite) but these typically last a second or two and then disappear - in other words, no long-term weather-related difficulties.

In any case, if I seemed too dismissive, I apologize. The best advice is probably to talk with other satellite subscribers in one's area before installation. Around here, we had terrible cable service (Rogers, Paragon and now Comcast) for a very long time, so going satellite was a no-brainer.

Dear Slashdot

[psxndc]

Can you recommend a low budget system that will likely cost me between $200-$600 between time and money so that I can avoid spending $300 on the easier solution? FWIW, you can use a tivo without paying the monthly fee. I think the monthly fee just let's you access their programming guide and recommendations. I don't own one yet, so I really don't know.

psxndc

Re:Dear Slashdot

[MadBiologist]

Ain't that the truth... If you get a Tivo with Tivo Basic service, there is no monthly fee unless you want to expand to the full Tivo experience. Which is probably woth it. As far as a standalone Tivo, you do need to subscribe, unless your reciver is older and came with version 1.X of the software.

Jim

Re:Dear Slashdot

[thoth]

You do need the service for series 2 TiVo's, otherwise they will stop working after a month. Not working means they won't let you do any new recording, but will allow you to watch what has already been previously recorded.

Re:Dear Slashdot

[psxndc]

I stand corrected. I was just going by what people on Amazon were saying because, like I said, I don't own one. yet. Thanks for the info.

psxndc

Don't bother

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a TIVO. You can get a great deal on one from DirecTV from time to time, $99.00 is what I got mine for.

Then, if you look on EBay you will find that used TIVOs are worth more than you paid for yours.

Hey, there's nothing like enjoying a product and having it be worth more after usage than you paid for it.

Of course, if all you really want to do is sit around, pull your hair out because this or that doesn't work right on your computer, then have fun.

Myself, I'll be watching the game.....

Re:I'd just buy one

[jsonic]

You also don't need to buy a subscription when buying a tivo. You can purchase just the hardware if you want. Of course not having the program listings and scheduling features kinda defeats the main benefit of PVRs.

To be really useful, a homemade pvr has to solve the problem of obtaining program listings.

TeeVee schmeevee

[Zombierator]

I'd give up the freaking tube--it wastes precious game-playing hours.

Re:I'd just buy one

[deanj]

Especially now that the Tivo can download the program info over the net via wireless adapter on it's USB.

Re:I'd just buy one

[emases]

I agree, it's actually not that cheap to build one from scratch. I looked into this a few months ago and found it would cost as much as a Tivo, if not more. Asus Pundit ~200 CPU ~150 RAM ~100 Hard Drive ~100 PVR card ~200 Total ~750

Xbox makes a GREAT frontend.

[ozzmosis]

I use mythtv, I have 1 backend server with a Hauppauge pvr-250 and a OLD win-tv card in it, it has 1GB of ram, 3x120GB harddisks, and an amd2500+. The two cards allow me to record two shows at once, lets two people on two different frontends watch two different channels, or picture in picture. This computer has more power than mythtv needs, you can use something with alot less power. Especally if you get a hardware tv capture card.

When I am recording off my old win-tv capture card and I am in gnome running mozilla, etc. I can tell a big difference in video quality as when I am not doing anything on the computer. So if you have a slow computer, you want to use X/mozilla/etc, or just want better video quallity get a hardware video capture card (happauge pvr 250/350). A pII 400mhz would do very very well with a pvr 250/350.

My main frontend is a Xbox with gentoo installed. If you have a Xbox and you are as disappointed as I was with the games the xbox is your best bet for a front end for a TV. It "fits" beside the tv, I mean who wants a tower computer beside the tv anyways? Also some guy made a xbox-linux/mythtv distro. I haven't tried it but it looks really neat.

My other front end is a laptop with 802.11g card in it. I must say mythtv does QUITE well wireless.

Re:Xbox makes a GREAT frontend.

[i_r_sensitive]

From the website docs:

I also kept the basic layout that Debian 0.4.1 uses with the config files being symbolic linked to the XBOXLocal directory in /.

So where is this famous XBOXLocal on /.?

LOL

Re:Xbox makes a GREAT frontend.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious how you're streaming from mythtv to the xbox front end. Could you elaborate?

Re:Xbox makes a GREAT frontend.

[LilMikey]

I'm right there with you. Only my backend is a little less powerful. XP1400+ with a single Bt8x8 card. However, it's always running KDE as well as a bunch of background services and I haven't seen a stutter in the recording or playing. My default recording is MPEG 4 around 1500.

I have frontends on my main Linux box, my XBox, and my laptop but no wireless unforunately :(

Re:Xbox makes a GREAT frontend.

[Hast]

I would assume he runs MythTV on the XBox as well. (The linked program suggests that.) AFAIK MythTV is designed so that using different computers for capturing and viewing is a simple matter.

Besides that you can always use XBMP which in my experience is a very capable media player for the XBox. (Streaming over ethernet is naturally no problems.) Though XBMP doesn't have any real "Tivo" like features.

Re:Xbox makes a GREAT frontend.

[LazyBoy]

. If you have a Xbox and you are as disappointed as I was with the games the xbox is your best bet for a front end for a TV.

It will do both, right? I mean there's a way to pick "Play X-Box game" on the menu, yes?

myHTPC

[hawks5999]

checkout myHTPC.net

Re:myHTPC

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, if you'd like a PVR that actually works, doesn't crash and doesn't add $120+ to the cost of the PVR (Windows license), check out Freevo or MythPC.

Re:myHTPC

[druiid]

Uhhhh.. I'm not sure what program you're using, but I've never had crash problems with myHTPC crashing. Now, some of the plugins, I've had trouble with before.. but using the newest version plugins It's been rock stable for me. Certainly, if you don't have a windows copy already then you'll have to spend money.. but really, although we like to scorn it here, I'm going to have to say.. most people here still at least have a copy of the OS. /me waits for original poster to retort about myHTPC crashing all the time

Problem

[dissy]

> How would you go about building the perfect low-budget PVR?

The problem is "perfect" and "low-budget" do not go together.

If you want perfect, do it right and spend the cash, be it for good hardware on your own system, or a pre-built unit.

If you want low-budget, find the cheapest USB video capture device you can, a cheap old video card that does video-out, a remote reader (dont recal if these are serial or usb) so you can use 'misc IR remote control', and spend a few weeks/months coding up all the glue and menuing systems and whatnot you will need.

Look at your cable company

[alen]

Time Warner is offering a Tivo like service for $8.95 a month. That is $107.40 a year. Compare that with the costs of Tivo and the service or even building and upgrading your own PC to be a DVR. If you upgrade every few years, the Time Warner service is very cost competative and pain free of spending hours trying to configure whatever you build.

Re:Look at your cable company

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but once you record something on the TW service, can I burn it to a CD and trade with my friends ?

Re:Look at your cable company

[pyros]

I have this, and I have frequent problems with it dropping scheduled recordings. I've only seen this with shows that I schedule to record 'all episodes' of. Another big complaint is it has no checks in place to see if it already has that episode recorded. The Daily Show is aired 4 times (10pm, 12am, 9am, and 6pm CST), and I get every single one if I set it to record all episodes. I can't tell it to record all episodes in a particular timeslot (se the Daily Show listings). Last, the clock is not at all syncronized with the actual shows, so I frequently lose the beginning or ending 30 seconds of shows.

The appliance that never was (TiVO Mafia?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Digital recorder for dummies....
I live outside the states, what I want is a stupid appliance for dummies that you can connect to the TV and use it for digital recording programming channel, starting time, duration, etc. Then you can see what you have recorded, erase recordings etc. Just a simple device with two cables and a remote. No PC, cards, software, setups, etc.
But this doesn't exist and I can't really understand why....

Re:The appliance that never was (TiVO Mafia?)

[Em Ellel]

Erm,

Check out DVD recorders, especially ones with Hard drives. They are not as good as tivo, but do everything you mentioned, plus allow you to dump stuff onto DVD (which until the latest DVD tivo combo, which has no monthly fee for tivo BASIC (no TVGuide)

here some links:

Pioneer Tivo/DVD-R
or
DVD Recorder Buying Guide

Re:I'd just buy one

[kinzillah]

Unfortunatly, with the changes tivo is making, you'll have less control over your ability to hack it and add new features. They just recently started cracking down on backup images for people upgrading hard drives. With this happening, I think it would be worthwhile to roll my own with off the shelf hardware and linux.

Re:I'd just buy one

[aborchers]

I'd just buy a Tivo because it's easier.

If you, and the people who think this is insightful, can't see the difference between a Tivo (subscription required, arbitrary set of limitations decided on by the company) and a homemade PVR with any media playback/record capability you can put into a PC, then you've certainly made a wise choice. It's also easier to buy a standalone CD-copier than to deal with a CD-burner and various software, but it's not the same!

Now maybe people with something substantial to add to the discussion of homemade PVRs can post...

Upfront Cost is Hard to Beat

[mprinkey]

A cheap Duron, hard drive, case, TV-out capable video card, and TV card is going to probably cost more than a stand-alone Tivo, so you are only saving on the "backend." I like the progress that I have seen in MythTV and Freevo, especially the integrated features like emulators and such. That is the appeal for me to build these type of solutions, not price.

FWIW, I am a DirecTV subscriber and the DirecTivo gives you a lot of functionality that you just can't easily replicate. It stores full quality video from the satellite feed on the hard drive. It also allows you to record two shows at the same time. That makes it well worth the price. Of course, mine has a 120 GB hard drive hacked in to give over 100 hours of storage.

Now I just need to figure out how copy the video from the Tivo. I can ftp and telnet into the system, but I haven't investigated the state of the extraction software lately. One of those projects I need to get to...

Re:Upfront Cost is Hard to Beat

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now I just need to figure out how copy the video from the Tivo."

No, with all of this TV watching now you just need to figure out how to get your ass unglued off of the couch.

Re:Upfront Cost is Hard to Beat

[Chris Pimlott]

TyStudio is a decent package for extracting video off your TiVo. Comes with a neat little GUI and everything.

not necessarily cost effective

[earlytime]

If you add all the hardware costs up, you'll pay close to (or more than) the $250 it takes to get a tivo. Then you'll need to find some way to get program listings if you want to schedule recordings based on something besides just channel & date & time.

And the bottom line is, you don't have to pay tivo a monthly anything. Just buy the tivo and don't subscribe to the listings. Or you can buy the lifetime and not deal with monthly payments. Or buy a used tivo(with lifetime service) on ebay and get a deal. Lots of folks are trading up to series2 this way.

I have to admit that the series2 with home media is awesome. Get a $30 usb nic, and you can stream images/audio from the network. There's a sweet *nix program called byrequest (http://sourceforge.net/projects/byrequest/) that lets you serve files without windows, and they claim is will serve video also...

So why don't you go put that in your pipe and... nevermind.

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[strags]

Program listings are readily available through XMLTV. MythTV (and I believe Freevo) are tightly integrated with XMLTV.

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[earlytime]

Cool! I never knew that. One of the smart things that tivo does with the service is that they provide much more than just channel listings. They do sw updates, service announcements, music samplers, scenic images, and some ads for various movies and tv shows. I'm not a fan of ads, but I like the fact that they have an alternate revenue stream. It helps to ensure that the company will be around to support the hardware & software down the road.

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[Zathrus]

Just buy the tivo and don't subscribe to the listings.

Ok, I'm a TiVo advocate, but you can't do that. At least not unless you buy an old S1 that shipped with v1.3 or earlier of the software.

Current TiVo's will go into boat anchor mode if unsubscribed -- you cannot even use them as a digital VCR.

There's a sweet *nix program called byrequest (http://sourceforge.net/projects/byrequest/) that lets you serve files without windows, and they claim is will serve video also...

I have byRequest running on my Linux MP3 server. It's nice, and I prefer it to the perl HMO server. Needs a lot of hacking done on it still -- it has more features than the Windows based HMO server, but that's hardly enough :)

It does NOT serve video though. There is no way to do that without seriously hacking your TiVo. It does serve pictures (gif, jpeg, bmp), but that's a standard feature of HMO.

I'll agree with the various other people that have said this though -- if you want something that just plain works then TiVo is the answer. You won't beat it in price, even with a lifetime subscription factored in. If you like to twiddle around with stuff and don't mind the user interface issues then an HTPC can be a big boon -- in particular it lets you do things that TiVo and competitors still don't, and probably won't for a long, long time (if ever). Pick your poison.

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[workindev]

Acutally, Tivo has been offering a "Tivo Basic" service on some Tivo devices. This offers DVR functionality with no subscription to the Tivo service.

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[Zathrus]

Yes, but this is only on the Toshiba DVD-R and Pioneer DVD-R with TiVo service. They cost well over $800.

You cannot get TiVo Basic on a standard TiVo receiver. It also eliminates most of the cool TiVo features (like Season Passes and Wishlists).

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[MarkGriz]

Actually, I love the Tivo Showcases (yes they are ads, but some are pretty good).

Anyone catch the Mint Brothers showcase? Funnier than hell, especially if you grew up in (as opposed to were born in) the 80's. Ahh, the memories.

Check out the clips on their website. Don't miss the Tasty Xtras... they are the best part.

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[Anonymous Coward]

I have Tivo S1 and now it has v3.0 software. If there is no program info available I still can record by timetable.

Re:not necessarily cost effective

[babyrat]

Will Tivo record directly to MPEG4? DivX? XVid?

Just wondering...

Re:I'd just buy one

[dissy]

> You also don't need to buy a subscription when buying a tivo. You can purchase
> just the hardware if you want. Of course not having the program listings and
> scheduling features kinda defeats the main benefit of PVRs.

If you plunk down $300 for the hardware, may as well plunk down the $250 for a lifetime subscription as well.

Just pretend the hardware costs $550, but in this way you will have full guide listings and no monthly fee.

Repeat ad Nauseum

[use_compress]

Mom, can you tape the Simpsons? Mom, can you tape the Simpsons?

Networked

[WindBourne]

What you want to look at is not competing with what is there, but do what the future holds. I have a server that is doing VLC and can see ripped DVD's (my own) or listen to music via my computers or via the linux client that I run on the Telly. When KDE 3.2 is out fully, I will be using lirc to handle the dvd's/Music correctly.

How much less expensive really?

[Kohath]

You can buy a ReplayTV with no monthly fee for $499 at Buy.com. They're $399, factory refurbished, on eBay. Probably cheaper other places.

That WinTV card is $175 or so. For the $2-300 difference, you get the computer included. It comes with a decent (not great) remote, and it's all ready to go.

I just did this

[seafoodbuffet]

I just built a MythTV box recently. Here's a rough breakdown of the components I used:

• CPU: Athlon XP 2400
• MB: Some random Gigabyte motherboard, about $60
• Case: I splurged here and got an HTPC-looking Cooler Master ATC-610
• Video: GeForce2 MX 440
• Capture: Hauppage WinTV PVR 250
• 120MB IDE HD
• 802.11 wireless card
• DVD-ROM/CDRW drive

In total, I spent around $700. This is clearly not cheap compared to a TiVo, but I can do a lot of things that a typical TiVo can't and I don't have any service fees to pay. If I really wanted to save money, here's what I would have done:

• get a cheaper processor, possibly a MiniITX-based CPU/MB combo, the PVR-250 card does on-board MPEG2 encoding so you don't really need much CPU power
• get a cheap case, mine cost about $100 'cuz I wanted it for looks. You can get a beige one for next to nothing
• get a cheap optical drive or don't use one. (I wanted to do DVD playback and be able to burn VCDs)
• don't use wireless networking (run ethernet and use on-board networking)

Re:I just did this

[danknight]

How Much Video can you get on the 120MB Hard Drive ?

Re:I just did this

[SnowDog_2112]

Don't forget wireless keyboard and mouse to control from your cushy couch :).

Anybody who is trying to save money by building a TiVo substitute is going to end up losing in the end.

Do it because you love to hack, do it for the satisfaction, do it for the feature set, but trying to save money is not going to work here.

Re:I just did this

[FrostedWheat]

I recently managed to compress an episode of Survivor down to 5 bytes with no noticeable loss in quality!

Going by that, I'd say he'd get quite a bit on that drive ...

Re:I just did this

[Fizzlewhiff]

Good god man! For $700 you could have hired illegal immigrants to swap video tapes for you, clean your pool, and take care of the yard. Or you could have just bought a Tivo Series 2 with a lifetime subscription.

Re:I just did this

[crow]

You can get quite a bit of video on a 120GB hard drive. (I see now that you're trolling the spelling, but I can see 120GB being thought of as small.)

I have a 120GB drive on my ReplayTV, and most of my recording is at 1GB/hour. With MythTV, you can do offline transcoding to mpeg4, so you can store a lot more on there.

Of course, if you're using an ATSC source, you'll need a lot more storage (ATSC is the HDTV broadcast standard). I think that's upto 8 or 9GB/hour.

I'm going to start with a 200GB drive for my MythTV system (I'm going to order the parts within a week).

Re:I just did this

[LilMikey]

I completely deleted an episode of Average Joe and quality actually increased!

Re:I just did this

[Hoi Polloi]

The whole point of it though is that now he has a Tivo that doubles as a PC; or is it a PC that doubles as a Tivo?

Re:I just did this

[danknight]

I was Just going for a +5 Funny but, you're right I have over 20 hours of tv and movies on the livingroom pc on 80GB with plenty of room to spare....

Re:I just did this

[AbbyNormal]

"120MB IDE HD"

Not a big TV watcher, even with the TIVO, are we?

Re:I just did this

[Garfunkel]

wireless keyboard and mouse? Why would you need that? Just use your remote and ssh in if you need anything else.

I agree that cost should not be an issue, but make sure you know what you're talking about. I spent ~400 on my myth box and I can upgrade it piecemeal as I feel necessary. I have infinitely more control over the box as well. Sure it's a little more work, but it's a project and a challange, and a nice diversion from working on the house all the time.

Re:I just did this

[SnowDog_2112]

ssh in if you need anything else
I guess. I was thinking of a friend's homegrown solution, and it was very cool to be able to have full access to the PC from the couch. Surf the web, check your fantasy football scores while the game goes on in a window, etc.

but it's a project and a challange, and a nice diversion from working on the house all the time
Exactly. It's a hobby and it's one I can see the appeal of. Trust me, I labored over this decision for a while before ending up with the TiVo. I did it for cost, but also because I just don't have time for another hobby. Like I read from someone else who was heavy into this hobby: "Now I spend more time managing my system than I do watching TV with it -- but that's more fun anyway." (paraphrased)

Ah, who am I kidding? If I was single, I'd have a homegrown system too. Just don't tell the Mrs. :)

Re:I just did this

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole point of it though is that now he has a Tivo that doubles as a PC; or is it a PC that doubles as a Tivo?

No he does not. He has a PC that acts like a shitty, second rate TiVo.

Who the fuck is so idiotically geeky as to try to use a PC as a PC when it is set up as part of his home theater setup?

What you have is not a PC, but an overly large, noisy, hot, ugly home theater component that can't do all the things that a TiVo could do (or does them poorly) which can also in theory act as a PC, but which you won't in fact be using as a PC.

Re:I just did this

[Hoi Polloi]

"Who the fuck is so idiotically geeky as to try to use a PC as a PC when it is set up as part of his home theater setup?"

Come on, this is Slashdot!

how much?

[Wakkow]

Out of curiosity, how much does a PC-based server cost to run? Say there's no monitor plugged in and it idles most of the time.. Roughly what does that come out to per month?

Simple math, but how much of the 300 watts is used for an idling PC, and what's the average cost per kwh?

Re:how much?

[AmigaAvenger]

about $5 to $7/month in my area at least. My electricity bill is consistent enough I can see exactly if a computer was running for a particular month. (no monitor, AMD machines with one or two hard drives)

Re:how much?

[AKAImBatman]

Simple math, but how much of the 300 watts is used for an idling PC

There's no way a PC without a monitor is going to draw 300 Watts unless it's a specialty super-computer. (i.e. Runs at 100% CPU power at all times, while making use of heavy draw hardware such as GPU rendering.)

150 Watts is a much better average. 24 hours a day, with ~30 days in a month, at 150 watts gives:

24*30*150 = 108,000 Watt-Hours = 108 Kilowatt-Hours

Look up what you're paying per KW hour and multiply that by 108. For example, 10 cents per KWH gives you a monthly cost of $10.80.

Re:how much?

[RevMike]

Out of curiosity, how much does a PC-based server cost to run? Say there's no monitor plugged in and it idles most of the time.. Roughly what does that come out to per month?

Simple math, but how much of the 300 watts is used for an idling PC, and what's the average cost per kwh?

I've researched this a little bit before. IIRC, it works out to about $6 or $7 a month. There are a tremendous number of variables so it is difficult to predict a particular situation. for instance, many of the "old" PCs that people toss in the corner as headless file servers don't support idling. Rather than go into a low power state, the CPU runs at full power in a noop loop. Sometimes older machines don't spin down the disk properly either. Newer machines should go to a low power state much more readily, but will require much more power while they are running.

The grandparent post was correct that running an old pentium as a firewall rather than buying a LinkSys box for $50 is a foolish economy. Of course, if one requires capabilities that the simple box doesn't provide - that is a different story.

I'm a fan of the VIA mini-itx systems for "always on" applications. With judicious use of eBay, one should be able to assemble a decent low power system for less than $300. I'm told that the 1 GHz Nehemiah based systems have good integer performance but not so good floating point performance. Think of them as about a 500 MHz Pentium equiv. Great little machines for a home file and print server, and they are practically silent aside from being good for the electric bill. If you run a mini-itx as your server/web-browser/email box and only use that Dual Athlon machine when you are actually gaming, you should see a noticable drop in your electric bill.

Re:how much?

[mean pun]

Simple math, but how much of the 300 watts is used for an idling PC, and what's the average cost per kwh?

My pretty average 700MHz Athlon box running Linux consumes rougly 90W when idle, and 110W when doing something useful (e.g. compiling). It can also enter a sleep mode from which it can wake instantaneously (20W), and a powered `off' mode (5W).

So my box consumes nearly 880KWh per year in idle mode, 175KWh in sleep mode, and 43KWh in powered `off' mode.

Of course this is very much dependent on the components that you use. Processor power consumption is obviously important, but harddisks, video cards and even memory also require quite some power.

Re:how much?

[fingusernames]

In my place, I have at least four machines running 24x7. Sometimes more. Also one each monitor, UPS, HP5N printer, fax machine, laptop (always plugged in, nearly dead battery), wifi. Then there is the big TV, big stereo, fridge, lights, water pump, window AC units, window fans, furnace, various other electronic stuff.

Let's get some bills out. In the height of summer in Chicago, with AC going, my most expensive month was $68.30 for 817 kWh. In the most temperate period, no AC, no furnace, it was $37.45 for 470 kWh. Those are actual kWh costs, before taxes/fees.

Larry

Re:how much?

[marc_gerges]

My Epia M10000 based Tivo clone with a PVR-350 and a hd comes in at around 20W idle, and 30-35W when in use.

Tivo's are not available in this part of the world, so I can't compare. But I guess it wouldn't come in much lower...

Re:how much?

[Wavicle]

Slightly off topic, but...

This is exactly the reason people should take an interest in mini-itx motherboards for home servers. A 60W power supply could feed one of the fanless 600MHz mini-itx boards at load. I don't have the means to measure, but I suspect at idle it runs around 15W (assuming the hard drive gets spun down during idle, which is not good for the lifetime of the drive, but good for power savings).

Re:how much?

[mjallison]

I too am building a system using the VIA Nehemiah board. The low power consumption was one of main attractions to using this board. Additionally the BIOS contains a "wake up @ time" function than I suspect can be used to cause a start up of the system so a scheduled recording can be done. All the previous analysis of the amount of power used in a 24x7 configuration hit on an important point. The total on time is almost more important than the power used while the system really "on". Consider how much power a "small" 4 watt wall-wart uses. It's much more than you think. I really found this out when doing a power survey in my house for a planned (but not yet purchased) photovoltaic system. Perhaps I need a solar powered "freevo" box...

Re:how much?

[LilMikey]

Well, the PC that's running my mythtv backend is also my webserver, MySQL server, file server, and CVS server. It's also used for StepMania when the geeks want to let it all hang out.

So, very close to 0.

Re:how much?

[PhracturedBlue]

I bought one of these neat little power meters a while back, and went around measuring everything icould get my hands on.

My laptops use ~45 watts with the screen on, without the screen it is about 35 watts (one is a PII366, the other a PIII-1GHz, both have 12" screens)

My P4 systems all use about 150 watts (no monitor) in idle (not powerdown, drives spinning) state. The worst I could manage running benchmarks was around 200W. Monitors vary a lot. Mine run about 3w in sleep, about 20W active.

1kwHr/day = ~42 Watts always-on.

electricity here is about $0.07 kW/hr which means I pay $1 per month for each 20W always-on in my apt.
My laptops cost me about $2 each. My computers $7 each.

My SMC firewall uses 7W, and it costs much less to operate than the old Cyrix 166 that used to fill that task (besids which, it doesn't use much more electricity than the wireless router I had before, and also replaces that)

So I'm all for specialized products to fill my needs. Of course, I have a dedicated MythTV PVR box I built myself (which is one of those $7/month electricity expenditures), but I wanted the ability to do multiple simultaneous recordings, have a web-interface , and have multiple front-ends (all of which were not availiable on Tivo until recently, and which have premium costs attached). But it wasn't a cost decision. I just like to tinker.

Re:how much?

[cat_jesus]

Using a modern machine for small applications is the very thing that underclocking is good for.

Re:how much?

[bmwm3nut]

something's wrong in that calculation. i have 3 desktops, pentium, dual pentium mmx, pentium 2, and 4 laptops, pentium, celeron, pentium 3, pentium 4. all are on 24/7 and my electricity bill is about $16/month. i don't know my exact energy usage, or my cost per KWh, but there's quite a discrepancy between your estimation and my actual values.

Re:how much?

[Anonymous Coward]

So thats where all that California electric power was going a around 2000...

Re:how much?

[AKAImBatman]

i don't know my exact energy usage, or my cost per KWh,

Well, there's your problem. I used 10 cents a KWH as a figure I pulled out of thin air. Your costs may be much less, especially since they vary depending on location. Also, 150 watts is based on a reasonably heavy usage. If your machines sit there in power saving mode most of the time, they're going to use less power.

I gave the calculation as a ballpark figure because that's what the guy asked for. Take it for what it's worth. :-)

Re:how much?

[CommandNotFound]

I have four boxes running 24/7, and I'm looking at an electricity bill for $61.22 at $.09/kW/hr. I find it hard to believe that these machines are costing me almost $30/month (4 x $7) to run. Or, to put it another way, I find it hard to believe that a decent sized house could have a $35 power bill. Even I'm not that miserly. :) Perhaps these machines are fairly efficient, since two do not have hard drives.

I would like to replace my floppy P100 with a dedicated firewall, but none that I've found have a true DMZ, where the DMZ box cannot ping the internal LAN. The Linksys firewall that friend bought would allow this.

Re:how much?

[steveha]

I'm told that the 1 GHz Nehemiah based systems have good integer performance but not so good floating point performance.

All Via C3 chips before the Nehemiah run the FPU at half the clock speed of the rest of the chip. So an 800 MHz C3 runs integer math at 800 MHz but floating point at only 400 MHz. The Nehemiah, on the other hand, runs the FPU at full speed.

So the Nehemiah is the first version of the C3 to suck less at floating point math. It's still going to be not as good as an Athlon or Pentium chip of the same clock speed, but at least its FPU runs at full speed.

Note that a 1 GHz Nehemiah will smoke a computer from just a few years ago. It's all relative.

steveha

Re:how much?

[gl4ss]

hell.. and how would i keep my apartment warm then?

space heater?

geez.... :)

Re:how much?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no way the average idle computer with no monitor uses 150W.

No frick'in way. More like 20-50W tops...

Re:how much?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're paying 10 cents per KWH then you're getting ripped.

More like 3 to 5 cents average.

Re:how much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that a 1 GHz Nehemiah will smoke a computer from just a few years ago. It's all relative.

Do you have anything to back that up? In my own testing a 1Ghz Nehemiah is about the same as a 500 Mhz Pentium 3. My 450 Mhz Celeron is just a little bit slower than the 1 Ghz mini-itx I played with.

Re:how much?

[AKAImBatman]

No frick'in way. More like 20-50W tops...

Uhhh... you do realize that a P4 disipates about 30 Watts? Hard drives are no slouches either. Electro-mechanical components by nature draw a lot of power. If the computer is DOING something, it can use 150 watts easily. If it's sitting with a light load, 20-50W is reasonable.

Re:how much?

[ljavelin]

My PC runs at 90 watts at idle, with HDD spinning.

I assume that it's be slightly lower with HDD not spinning.

Under load (high CPU), it might run at 115 watts.

Re:how much?

[xixax]

The Sparc4's I use draw a *maximum* of 53 watts, so as appliances (DHCP, NAT, Squid, DNS) go, they're cheap to run (IMHO). That'd be $3 per month.

Of course chunkier CPU and video will draw more current, but I think if you got something like a laptop with a broken screen, that'd make a decent, low power unit.

And it's not just power. My study is a lot quieter and cooler since I ditched most of the Yum-Cha PCs in favour of engineered stuff. :o)

Xix.

Re:how much?

[steveha]

0) My 1 GHz Nehemiah seems fast to me. The DDR memory doesn't hurt, and mine has lots. I haven't tested it against assorted Pentium 3 systems to see where it ranks, and I haven't tried to run games on it.

1) I said "a few years" to be vague enough to have some slack. If the Nehemiah doesn't feel fast enough, go back another year or two; I'm sure it will smoke a 233 MHz Pentium II, say.

steveha

Re:how much?

[marauder404]

Dunno how much you're paying for electricity? Estimate it with this convenient chart: http://www.coaleducation.org/Ky_Coal_Facts/electri city/average_cost.htm

Re:how much?

[Ratso Baggins]

"The grandparent post was correct that running an old pentium as a firewall rather than buying a LinkSys box for $50 is a foolish economy."

If you don't want to use any extra electrickery, then use a software firewall. Say Zone Alarm? After all as long as there is something that someone somewhere on the planet called a firewall at least once, between you and the big bad internet, then you are fully-protected, right? What were you saying about fools and economies?

Of course Linksys, Netgear, Belkin, Skylink, etc. come out with patches for their linux kernel as soon as.... crickets....

Seriously, my 486 *cough* firewall is only warm to the touch while idling (remember some are only passively cooled), and gets much warmer under load (but not hot), say kernel compile. If it were nop'n it would be just as hot on idle as full load, no?

Re:how much?

[Krashed]

My Tivo has a 40watt power supply so at 8cents a k/W, we spend less than 3 dollars a month. I was trying to turn an older computer into a Tivo like device using Myth, then Freevo, but when Best Buy had an ad for a Phillips branded Tivo for $99 and 5 dollars a month for service, I couldn't resist. Nothing beats the real thing. Almost, other than the fact that I can't network the Phillips Tivo (USB is disabled), it is a great device, the quality is EXCELLENT and when I do want to copy a show, my DV camera can be hooked up in a few seconds for a decent looking rip, much better than any PVR PCI card on the market.

Frevo is shakey

[ViolentGreen]

I saw a review on Frevo. It seemed pretty shadey. It worked, in a kinda-sorta-maybe kind of way. It appeared that it had very strict hardware requirements and was less then reliable. Colors weren't very accurate and the actual quality of the playback was less than steller.

I would suggest doing a LOT of research so you have the right hardware and know what to expect if you do go this route.

Re:I'd just buy one

[Degrees]

I agree. Actually - I bought a Replay. Then I bought another, it was so good. The company takes care of bug fixes, and has a way of downloading them automatically. I don't see the value in building my own appliances, unless that were my main hobby (which it isn't).

TiVo is cheaper -- initially

[Hasufin_Heltain]

I got my TiVo for about 100 bucks. I use DirecTV and am using a DirecTivo... so for me the cost is pretty much hidden away in the satellite bill. $5/month.

The Tivo works. It's easy and simple.

Worth the cashola. For a DIY'er... go for the HTPC solution but you will end up paying more upfront. You figure what a $100 on the video card... or maybe more and say $350-$400 at a minimum for a PC...... so 500 bucks

The TiVo is cheaper... unless you keep it for over 6.5 years ;) But I understand about the advantages of having an HTPC... but anyways... good luck.

(DirecTV has been running $99 special for series 2 Tivo's for a bit...... and you can always find really good deals on Ebay from legit independents)

For ease of use, the Tivo wins hands down...

[MadBiologist]

I know your pain, I've heavily investigated this area, I have owned a Panny Showstopper which was a ReplayTV early model, an Ultimate TV from Microsoft, and a standalone Tivo. I've tried software from ATI, Showshifter, and Snapstream for my PC... I plan to attempt the MythTV unit as well in the near future, but nothing has compaired in terms of ease of use, inobtrusiveness, or sheer functionality as my Tivo.

The Tivo's real genius is that it is so blasted easy that trying to copy all of what it does is hard. It's the research that has gone into it that makes it what it is. I also have a Replay 5040 for backup, but if my Tivo died, I'd go out to CCity/BBuy and get one immediately. I've given the Tivo the mom test, and it passed with flying colors. My mother who hates technology and my obsession with gadgets would also replace her tivo should it expires.

I havn't ever had a computer with so few glitches, it's been running along since 8/01 and hasn't been shut off unless the power went out in all that time... and it still works great.

A few caveats, IMHO I've got the best type of Tivo the DVR for DirecTV which is intigrated with my sat service, and has the two tuners for duel recording, and I have upgraded the HDD in my Tivo so I have 80 hrs of storage.

As far as the computer solutions, I think I'd recommend SageTV, but that carries with it the fee involved as well. Whatever way you go, it'll be worth it. I was in a hotel a few nights ago, and was going crazy without that ability to pause, rewind, and skip commercials.

Peace!

Jim

Re:I'd just buy one

[princewally]

But, you would get other benefits for building one yourself.

You can play video games, surf the net, watch divx, etc.

Also, if you watch ebay, you can find most of the parts cheaper than retail.

Cost

[sirReal.83.]

"Hardware options are the main cost factor."

Hm. Wow. Really? You sure it's not all the Free Software?

Re:I'd just buy one

[elFarto the 2nd]

To be really useful, a homemade pvr has to solve the problem of obtaining program listings.

May I direct your attention to this.

This is currently what MythTV uses.

Regards
elFarto

Re:I'd just buy one

[tmhsiao]

Lifetime subs are 300 now.

Re:I'd just buy one

[Jaysyn]

So is using P2P. I mean it's still time-shifting right?

Jaysyn

Choose wisely

[StealthHunter]

The comment about tivo being easier is too true. If you want the flexibilty you'll be compiling mythTV (i venture to say that the /. crowd might compile anyway). Which introduces dependancy upon dependancy, required packages, modeles, kernel mods, etc etc. And some pre installed packages with the distro (I used Mandrake 9.2) don't work so you'll have to uninstall and install from a non-mandrake source. RedHat 9 has similar issues as well as Fedora. Research well before sinking into this project. If all you want is the base set though, there are many auto installed packages via urpmi, emerge, rpm, etc. Searh for the package you want then install the OS though, cause a mandrake 9 mythtv package won't run on 9.2. The PVR 350 works, but is built ontop of two beta drivers you'll have to get elsewear and the default mythtv puts video out through the video card not through the capture cards output, so default config must be changed.... ....but really i AM pro MythTV, it's just quite a bit more work than you'd initially think.

If you really want cheap

[Hartley1]

You can use Bittorrent to get all the shows other have captured...

TV cards are crap!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me a TV card with a Scart-RGB input and I'll stop saying that. S-Video and Composite Video are not suitable sources for good encoding.

Re:I'd just buy one

[wo1verin3]

I've been looking for something TiVoish in Canada and was going to pick up an actual TiVo until I read the following on the TiVo website:

TiVo service is required and is available for $12.95 per month or $299 for Product Lifetime.

Is that wrong or misleading, you're saying I CAN use the device, with the exception of scheduling or tv guide features...?

Do you want an appliance or a project?

[pyite69]

Tivo works very well. I also think it's a good
idea to support companies that use Linux.

Doing your own PVR will be fun, and eventually
will sort of work, but if you just want to plug a
unit in and have it "just work", you should buy
one. DirecTV subsidizes the Tivo cost during
promotions, the unit is $99 and the monthly fee is
like half of what it is on a standalone - plus you
can record two programs at once.

MythTV is great for Gentoo

[kanaka]

If you run Gentoo Linux, then Myth is VERY easy to setup. MythTV itself and all the major plugins have up to date ebuilds (packages).

Good documentation and links on www.mythtv.org.

I recommend a Haupauge WinTV card for your TV tuner.
If the Haupauge card has "PVR" in the title this means it has hardware MPEG encoding. Otherwise, you will need a fairly modern CPU (probably at least 1 GHz).

Dish Network PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently got a satelite dish from Dish Network and they through in a free PVR. It probably isn't as nice as TIVO, but it does the job. I can pause live TV, schedule recordings and all that good stuff. The only downside to Tivi IMO, is that it isn't as hackable. But I've read about some people who pull the hard drive out of these things to get to the mpeg files stored on them. There is no monthly charge, other than the satellite programming which is already cheaper than cable.

Re:Dish Network PVR

[mabhatter654]

on another note, is there a way to make a mythTV or Frevo box "look" like a VCR to a normal dish box? They have a cool feature on the standard 301 boxes that will automatically set your VCR to record if you have a supported unit for their universal remote. Then you get to use the built in channel guide and timers to schedule recording! It would be cool to set up a PC PVR so the remote would "act" like a supported remote.

Right now I have one of the cheapo Packard-bell media remotes you can get for $10 at computer shows. I'd love to use that as the IR reciever for a PC PVR to go with my dish reciever...

Re:Dish Network PVR

[Colazar]

The problem is a slightly different one than what you have stated.

The way that feature works, is that the DISH box tunes the TV to the correct station, and then sends out the IR pulse which tells your VCR "start recording" at the beginning of the program and "stop recording" at the end of the program.

So, (assuming you have your PVR set up correctly to record when ordered), you don't have to convince the DISH box of anything. What you do have to do is teach your PVR to respond to the IR signals that will be sent out.

(And make sure that everything is situated so that the PVR receives the IR signals. That's our problem--we rearranged our furniture, and now the VCR won't pick up the signals anymore. Grumble grumble.)

Re:Dish Network PVR

[mabhatter654]

correct...You have to make your PC PVR "look" like and act like a Dish supported VCR....how to do that? I've seen & have software for using A remote with a PC, but what I'm looking for is how to make a PC program respond to a "certian" remote, rather than the one included with the IR pickup. Once you do that, you don't need any expensive extra PVR's! that's the idea here...you already have the hard stuff, channel & schedule, paid for in the reciever you already have!

Hardware Requirements:

[JBMcB]

-At least 80GB Hard Drive. $72 for the WD Special Edition.

-TV Card. Cheap WinTV for $80 or the bonzo PVR350 for $200.

-Video Card. Cheapie GeForce/TVO for ~$40, or a nice Matrox GXX for ~$80. (Matrox has the best TV-Out, IMHO)

- Computer. Cheapo Chaintech integrated everything MB w/ Athlon XP 2400 CPU. ~ 256MB DDR. $150.

- Case. Either a plain minitower for ~$50, or a nice HTPC case for $150.

- Remote. The 350PVR comes with one, supported by lirc. Otherwise buy a remote keyboard/mouse for ~$80. Or you can build your own remote.

Most everything else is commodity ($20) CD-ROM drive, or DVD-ROM drive. Floppy if desired.

Not cheaper though worth...

[Anonymous Coward]

Try VDR. http://www.cadsoft.de/vdr/ I couldn't be happier with it. It is intended to use Digital Terrestrial/Cable or Satellite cards (so you get the Electronic Program Guide direct to your system from the broadcaster). It's an all digital recorder. Lots of plugins allow you to do DivX (via mplayer plugin), MPEG2 streaming, DVD recording of shows provided you have a DVD burner ... etc. LinVDR is a web fronted to program shows or browse the EPG from any browser. Thanks Klaus!!

Re:I'd just buy one

[f0rtytw0]

Tivo is certainly easier and cheaper if you would have to buy new hardware. However its missing one feature that is keeping me from buying it. From what I've seen there is no way to have a tivo on your home and lan have other computers on that network access it. This would be a great feature especially at my apartment where we can only get cable in one room. If anyone knows a cheap and easy solution I'm all ears.

I looked at this a while ago, not for cost...

[Osrin]

... but for functionality reasons. I figured (in the spirit of things) that I could do a better job than TiVo by choosing my own components, choosing the functionality I wanted and selecting an interface that worked best for my family.

In the end I dotted 3 TiVos around the house. The work involved in integrating the various components and getting them to work in a way that my wife is happy with was prohibitive.

If I was a student, living in an apartment, and just wanted simple PVR functionality then I'd look long and hard at Freevo and MythTV again.

For the $700 that I spent on each of the TiVos (including lifetime subs) I'm not sure that the functionality/interface/simplicity can be beaten.

This arguement does not really need to be run through again until one of the main stream vendors (or OSS projects) has clean support for HDTV, then the playing field has the potential to change again.

I'll be a heritic and put my money on Microsoft being first to the post, the hardware platform that they have truly sucks for their Media Center, a full PC is overkill... when you start to need real storage and memory to clear the HDTV requirement then they're starting in the right place, they just need to get the software right. ;)

Two words

[geeveees]

VIA Epia!

These are mini-itx, they kick ass! The C3 outputs like 12 watts while an athlon xp outputs around 74 watts... VIA is the way to go for a PVR.

I'd advise to check out Transmeta too, though I don't know a lot about their CPU's.

Channel listings with no fee

[kanaka]

One possitive about MythTV as opposed to TiVo is that with MythTV and I assume Freevo, you don't have to pay the montly subscription to get channel listings because MythTV processes the listings from free sites online.

Re:Channel listings with no fee

[The Vulture]

True, but if you live in North America, in exchange for free listings, you have to keep updating your software.

XMLTV grabs North American listings from Zap2It, and they regularly make changes to their website to break the screen scraper.

Additionally, Comcast has seen fit to keep monkeying with the channel lineup in my area, thus causing me even more grief.

I love my MythTV machine, but I'm willing to pay a few dollars a month to get program listings that will load every night without me having to muck around with it.

-- Joe

MODERATORS CHECK LINK IN SIG

[Anonymous Coward]

then please mod accordingly

Re:MODERATORS CHECK LINK IN SIG

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother. I modded one of this goof's posts with that link looking normal as the troll it was and some moron meta-modded my mod as unfair.

You get what you deserve moronz. I hope you get the picture on a huge monitor at work while da boss is walking by.

Re:MODERATORS CHECK LINK IN SIG

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you see what other's have meta-moderated your mods as....?

Re:MODERATORS CHECK LINK IN SIG

[Anonymous Coward]

You get a message when any of your moderations are meta-moderated.

Re:MODERATORS CHECK LINK IN SIG

[Anonymous Coward]

can anyone explain how it works, the google link ?

Re:MODERATORS CHECK LINK IN SIG

[pjp6259]

I'm not going to look at it real closely, but I'm guessing it's an "I feel lucky" link, where tubgirl is the top result.

Not really cost effective...

[mjh]

I can see getting a lot of geek satisfaction out of building one of these things, but to use it as a day-in/day-out DVR, I don't think it makes a lot of financial sense. First thing is that it's expensive. A TiVo with a lifetime subscription costs about $500. The WinTV-PVR 350 card alone is most of the cost of the TiVo hardware. I have yet to see an example of building one of these things for that low of a price.

Second, if you've got DirecTV, then there's no DVR that you can build that's going to do as good of a job of capturing the signal as the DirecTV DVR w/TiVo (DTiVo). The DTiVo simply copies the already MPEG encoded stream that DirecTV sends. Thus the DTiVo doesn't need an expensive (and relatively low quality) hardware MPEG encoder. Which means that the DTiVo can be found for serious cheap, sometimes even for free. Assuming that a homebrew DVR costs about $800 to build, you could get a free DTiVo and put the $800 towards 13 yrs 4 mos worth of monthly fees.

Still it sounds like a fun project. But it seems like you'd be paying for the entertainment of putting it together. Not for the low cost of the DVR.

Re:Not really cost effective...

[cyberElvis]

What would be cool is if DirecTV would allow someone to build a PC Card Tuner. Then you are right you could just pull the stream directly off the dish. I don't see this ever happening though. :(

webvcrplus and players

[Storm]

I have had pretty good luck using the following tools/apps:

webvcrplus for scheduling/recording, mplayer for playback, avidemux for commercial removal, mencoder for postprocessing (deinterlacing, audio syncing, etc.), and transcode with DVD::Rip for backing up DVDs.

My primary goal for this is to make backup copies of media for when I travel. When I watch live TV on my computer, I use TVTime. I am looking more into something like MythTV, because of the possibility of streaming content, and the fact that it is getting toward the point of being able to remove commercials on the fly.

That said, I have been very happy with my current configuration. Webvcrplus works like a charm, downloading listings through xmltv and scheduling them for recording.

sure just buy a tivo if all you want is a PVR...

[*weasel]

yeah, if all you want to do is PVR, then just buying a TiVO makes sense. But if you really want a convergence device to tie your tv into the network -- tivo can't compete.

with a roll-your-own, you could add all sorts of functionality:
. streaming non-mpeg2 video clips from across the network
. listening to your mp3 collection on your living-room sound system
. watching a slideshow of digicam vacation pics . firing up an emulator and enjoying some pong
. actually web browsing from a fully functional machine (add wireless keyboard for full effect)...

Tivo is fine functionality, but there's no reason to stop there. not when Tivo + lifetime subscription ~= cost of rolling your own

Aside from the usual responses...

[tmhsiao]

Pioneer's new DVD Recorder with TiVo allows you to use the PVR functions of the TiVo without paying a monthly fee. Of course, you don't get the Season Passes, Wishlists, or Home Media Option, etc, but you do get digital recording, no tapes, 3 days of guide data, and a DVD-Recorder (a new level of service called "TiVo Basic"). All this for about the price of a mid-range PC (900 dollars or so).

You can upgrade to the actual service if you so desire.

Why I love my MythTV

[strags]

It took a bit of work to get going, and I probably spent a total of about $500-$600.

BUT!

There is no subscription fee - TV listings are downloaded via XMLTV.
I can store CDs and DVDs on the HD.
I can run multiple front-ends, enabling me to watch TV/recordings on another machine on the network.
I can update recording settings through a very friendly HTTP interface.
I can extract and re-encode recorded shows.

In addition, people have written lots of groovy addons, including:
A MAME frontend
A CallerID module (when the phone rings, callerid information is displayed onscreen!)
A weather report module

The possibilities are endless.

Re:Why I love my MythTV

[The Vulture]

It's the unlimited possibility that lead me to make a MythTV machine as well. I figured that I could probably find a Tivo variant with dual-tuners, but then it only lets me record and watch TV.

I love the MythWeather module, and MythGame, I don't really use the others, but I like knowing that I have them there.

To me, it's definitely worth the extra money that I put into it.

-- Joe

Re:Why I love my MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

I love the MythWeather module, and MythGame, I don't really use the others, but I like knowing that I have them there.

If you haven't already, try the MythDVD module. I was amazed how well it actually works. Pop a DVD from the video store in, run MythDVD from the menu, select a couple of very basic things and it goes off and rips it in the background and encodes it to DivX (or just rips the vob files and saves them in "perfect" format). It's MUCH easier than when I last tried doing it on a Windows box a couple of years ago. I can now save on buying movies. I just rent them and save them to DivX on my MythTV box.

Re:I'd just buy one

[SnowDog_2112]

Correction. Legally, the series 2 TiVos (all that you can find at your corner TiVo store) all require a subscription to the service.

Old Series 1 TiVos can be used without subscription, as a sort of digital VCR.

Re:I'd just buy one

[CXI]

Now maybe people with something substantial to add to the discussion of homemade PVRs can post...

Dear PVR Zealot,
The guy requested a way to make exactly a Tivo but without paying for it. The answer to that question is you can't without spending more in time and money than just buying one. He didn't ask how to make a cool hacky-thing that will spend a lot of time and money for something that isn't a Tivo. For instance, he would be well informed to know:

- The free listing data available might not be as accurate as Tivo's (perhaps it's better, he should check).
- Does the homebrew PVR change channels for him? Did he even think of that? Is he going to be able to hack an infrared system up or rewire his cable box?
- Does he have satellite TV? If so there are options that can be directly integrated into the system he already has.

Now, go play with your homebrew PVR, while the rest of us uninformed people actually watch TV convieniently, without spending any extra time or money to do so in a "cool" fashion.

I'd buy a Tivo because it's cheaper.

[Moderation abuser]

Dedicated PC + TV card + hours of shit fucking about with half written software to get something which almost but doesn't quite work in a very basic way but isn't anything like as sophisticated.

OR

A Tivo + lifetime subscription which "Just fucking works"...

Hmmmm...

Re:I'd just buy one

[mszilagyi]

if you own a series1 this is true. However series2 requirs a subscription.. if you dont have service its just a big paperweight.

Just buy a TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

It will be cheaper.

Sigh...

[endus]

When I realized I had a spare 400mhz machine and was given a Radeon 7500 for free...I got very excited. Then I realized the machine was too slow for the Windows software, and Linux has major hangups using Radeons for capture for whatever reason. This is killing me!!

Splurge on the hardware!

[xchino]

I went through the build process of a DIY PVR. Eventually I stuck with MythTV after trying Freevo and some others, because of all the kick ass plugins for myth. The most useful piece of advice I have is pay attention to the hardware you're going to use first, and then add software.

The $45 ATI TV-Wonder you can get at best buy isn't going to cut it. This thing is ok for watching TV, but it's not even great at that. You definately want a TV tuner card with hardware MPEG2 encoding, preferably at 12MB/s. I'd recommend a Hauppauge product. You may even want to look into HDTV tuner cards, although I have no experience with them.

In the end the quality of your hardware is going to matter most, because regardless of the software you use to accomplish your goal, the end result will only be as good as the hardware that was used to capture the image.

I had a TiVo, but sold it after I built my own PVR. TiVo is great, and did some things my PVR doesn't (like suggested viewing), but all in all there's nothing better than your own home rolled PVR :)

Re:Splurge on the hardware!

[Bravid98]

I'm working on a MythTV box at the moment and I came across this site: http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/mythbayes/index.ph p

It looks like they are using a bayesian filter to suggest and record similar programs. This would pretty much put MythTV on par with tivo.

Re:I'd just buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

never used a tivo without a subscription have you...

you cant set the clock so you have to let it doal home, and let them cripple your device/ remove features at their whim.

tivo without a subscription is not possible anymore anyways... they removed the ability to use it on all newer models.

Re:I'd just buy one

[Serveert]

It's probably cheap because they sell it under cost then recoup the loss and even make profit with the monthly fees.

So you will probably find that it's cheaper if you build your own system, get the listings yourself from the internet and not pay the monthly fees.

MythTV

[Darth Maul]

I've been using a Myth box for 7 months now. It's great. It is a TiVo plus more. I bought a nice little Shuttle XPC case, Athlon 1800+, and a 80 Gig hard drive. I now have a real home theater media center box with PVR, movie library, audio library, image gallery, and weather services.

I cannot recommend MythTV any more highly. It really is the way to go, especially for those who love to hack around with Linux.

True Geekdom

[skooba]

i love my $8.95/mo. dvr from time warner cable. and even though i constantly gripe about how slow it changes channels, the only way i would give it up is if you pried it from my cold, dead hands. that being said, i am a geek, and i want to try to build one myself.

the necessary hardware is obvious. but i do not how i can decode twc's digital cable signal all by my little geek self. can anyone offer any hints or clues?

MythTV, Freevo vs. TiVo

[latency]

You'll spend more in man-hours and probably more on equipment getting any of the linux pvr solutions running than just purchasing TiVo.

The advantages to using a linux solution are in scalability (yes, even taking into account TiVo hacking.)
For the average user, it's probably not worth the effort, but if your library is huge, you want to be able to watch from multiple computers/tvs and perhaps record multiple programs at the same time, it might be worth it.

If you're seriously considering MythTV, keep in mind that some kind folks maintain pre-packaged binaries for different popular distros. you can find links to them on the mythtv.org documentation section I believe.

Re:I'd just buy one

[MindStalker]

Or directTV tivo. 99 dollars for the tivo (with 1 year contact) and free tivo service if you have the 37.99 package or higher. (Which just became cheaper than comcast as my rates just went up almost 5 dollars in my area).

Re:I'd just buy one

[MrAngryForNoReason]

Just to clarify, 'Lifetime Subscription' means the lifetime of the product, not the lifetime of the subscriber. As soon as you upgrade to a new model you have to pay out for subscription again, bear this in mind before you pay it. Ok for normal users who will buy it and keep it until it falls apart, but not so good for the geek who has to have the latest tech.

Try Video Disk Recorder (VDR)

[NoSuchGuy]

Try the Video Disk Recorder. You can download it here.

This is a FREE and completely non-commercial project. Any information posted on these pages is freely available to anybody. All source code published here is protected by the GNU general public licence.

Features include (copy & paste):
* Operation entirely via DVB card's On Screen Display and infrared control (LIRC/RCU) or keyboard
* Support for multiple DVB cards (up to four, at least one full featured card with video out required) and "conditional access" (CICAM)
* Channel groups
* EPG display by channel or by time ("What's on now/next")
* Timers: Programming via EPG or manually, priority/lifetime model, single-shot or repeating timers which use EPG subtitle info as recording's title additionally
* Recording storage on disk: Automatically splitting of recording into files (2GB), support for multiple storage directories (may be spread over multiple disks), support for hierarchical storage
* Support for multiple audio tracks and Dolby Digital
* Instant recording
* Playback modes normal, pause, fast forward/backward (multi speed), jump to specific location, jump 60 seconds
* Support for editing recordings (with I-frame accuracy: ~1/2 second)
* Multiple language support
* Support for executing system commands and displaying output on screen
* Network support (SVDRP): Manage timers and recordings via telnet
* Automatic shutdown/wakeup (with certain mainboards)
* Support for automatically executing commands upon recording start/end and editing recordings

New in version 1.2

* Instant Time Shift
* Plugin interface (see the list of available plugins).
* Additional remote control keys
* Macros can be assigned to remote control keys
* Multiple recordings on the same device
* Simultaneous recording and replay on the primary device

Re:Try Video Disk Recorder (VDR)

[Tony Hoyle]

at least one full featured card with video out required

Ouch.

That's $200 before you start...

Re:Try Video Disk Recorder (VDR)

[NoSuchGuy]

You have to see that as a one time investment.

NoSuchGuy

Re:I'd just buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not cheaper, but definitely more flexible in what you can do. For example, I built an all-in-one box with an Athlon XP 2400+, two Hauppauge WinTV dbx stereo tuners doing software encoding to DivX format (this was before PVR-250's became stable on Linux), 2x200 gig hard drives using LVM for volume management, 512 megs of ram, and a cheapy Geforce 4MX card for TV out in a Coolermaster 610 desktop case (looks like a nice stereo component case. Also, throw in some quiet power supply from Zalman, a flower cooler for the CPU, etc. Total price was probably around $1200. I can record two programs at once and have 10 times more space than the standard TiVo, plus it basically has the "home media option" built into MythTV. ;-) So, you can buy your $700 Tivo (home media option $99, Tivo w/40 gig drive is around $300, and the lifetime subscription is $300), or just spend a little more and get much more. I'd do it with PVR-350 cards these days though if I were to redo it. I'll be splitting off my front end machine from the backend soon and replacing the tuners with PVR-250 cards which do hardware mpeg-2 encoding. I'll use an Epia M10000 Nehemiah based front end machine. Should be fun. :-)

with

[Anonymous Coward]

your hands You've obviously done the research. So what exactly is your question ?

Re:I'd just buy one

[CXI]

You mean, something like this? (first link I could find. I'm sure you can use Google to find more/better.)

Use existing hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been brainstorming ways to do this for months now. All of my friends have spent alot of cash on powerful quiet boxes that do their PVR. I feel really left out but I dont have the money to do it.

I already have a really good home workstation. And when I'm not using it I'm watching TV. So my powerful workstation just sits idle. I've been thinking of installing a capture card in it and making it my PVR station. Maybe ShowShifter or.. I do use windows on this computer for games so mythtv won't cut it.

Anyways, the problem as I see it is how to get my captured files and media from my workstation in the office to my stereo in my living room cheaply. I've been looking seriously at using the XBOX MediaCenter. It can play divx, mp3 and bunch of other formats all of which would be on my network from my workstation.

Things I don't like about this is I can't stream video from my workstation to the XBOX. So no PVR for me. And controlling my computer from the living room may also be a challenge(but if it doesn't have PVR why would I need to control it?)

Anyways, I haven't done this yet but I think it would be a good 80/20 solution.

Re:I'd just buy one

[earlytime]

actually what tivo is doing is going after folks who "distribute" images of a tivo drive to others. You're free to hack away at your own tivo, including making drive images. *Distributing* tivo drive images violates Tivo's copyrights to their software, and also it violates linux's copyrights, because you're distributing a binary of linux without the corresponding source. Nevermind all of the other GPL programs that go with the full "gnu+linux" based OS that runs on Tivos.
Frankly, Tivo is a company that has shown a very cooperative corporate attitude towards tivo owners and hacking. They recognize that a tivo hacker is a tivo owner and a tivo owner is a tivo customer. What kind of bass-ackwards company would try to prevent their own customers from excercising fair-use with legally purchased products... oh nevermind.

Re:I'd just buy one

[MadBiologist]

If you get a Tivo with "Tivo Basic Service" you don't need to subscribe to Tivo... but it's definatly a step down from regular Tivo-hood. You can always upgrade the unit and get the full Tivo experience afterwards. Otherwise, every Tivo you get has to have Tivo Service included. It's well worth it. If you want, you should take a look at DirecTV with Tivo.. boxes are $99 for exisiting customers, and there service fee is $5 a month. GREAT GREAT GREAT deal!

Jim

Compare these costs:

[osjedi]

Hauppauge's PVR-350 tv tuner card: $200
Tivo after rebate: $200

It's hard to justify the cost of building your own when a tivo is so cheap. I'd like to build my own, but I can't do it as cheaply as just buying tivo hardware. (Yes, I have a Tivo).

Re:Compare these costs:

[rtos]

Let's take a look at those numbers...

Tivo monthly cost: $12.95/mo.

MythTV monthly cost: $0/mo.

Let's say you scrounge up some parts and build a whole MythTV system for $400. We'll use the 40hr Tivo at $200 after rebate. So, twice as much for the MythTV rig.

You'll break even in price after 15 months. Starting in the 16th month, you'll be saving money as compared to the Tivo. And that savings will continue to grow over time, for as long as you use the PVR.

So if you plan on using your PVR for at least a year, it's CHEAPER to build the MythTV box.

Ideas if you plan to be "cheap"

[read-only]

I've never messed around with this stuff, but a close friend of mine has. I've learned enough from his experience to have a few thoughts on this topic.

From what I have heard, MythTV is pretty nice. Lets assume you plan to run that or something similiar on a Linux box, and that you aren't will to spend a lot.

Obviously you wiil need plenty of disk space. Seems like RAID 0 would be nice, since there will be plenty of disk I/O while recording.

Other things to think about:

You can do this with one of the cheap (~$50) TV cards from Hauppage and it works well from what I have heard. I don't know much about the high-end cards and what they can do, but you said "cheap", so I'll go with that. So in this case all the encoding of audio/video takes place on your CPU. Don't underestimate the importance of processing power in this case. My friend had an older machine (~1.2 GHz) which he figured would make a good PVR box. Well, it had a really hard time keeping up, especially when he wanted to watch a show while recording it.

Are you going to be using this machine for other tasks, or is it a dedicated PVR box? From what I hear, if your machine in under-powered you won't be able to do much else.

Maybe someone else can comment on experience with these less-expenisve TV cards and the amount of processing power required???

After my friend upgraded to a fairly fast, new processes/mainbord/etc, he had much more success. The moral of my story is not waste your time trying to turn your "old" box into a PVR with a cheap TV card. Seems like you are either going to have to have a newer system with plenty of power or a more advanced TV card which can encode the video for you.

Re:I'd just buy one

[Horny Smurf]

The O'Reilly tivo hacks book has instructions on setting up tivo to be on a lan. My Tivo (200gig hard drive) is used as an mp3 server.

MythTV just rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a mythtv setup and just love it. I haven't been this excited about linux since I first got X windows running with Redhat 3.03. I bought a WinTV PVR 250 for $99 after rebate from OfficeMax and put it in my main linux box. After seeing how great it was I put in a 120G HD just for video (about 80+ hours of DVD quality video). My main box is dualhead so I can watch recordings or live TV on one monitor and play around on the other.

I also have another PC running a mythtv frontend with TV-Out to my livingroom. I can watch any recording on either that box or the TV.

It's really great to be able to just watch whatever I record anywhere in the house. Now I just hope wireless handheld streaming will be added.... we'll see.

Since the video is MPEG2 I can burn them to DVD without re-encoding. I can get 3 1-hour shows on a re-recordable DVD that will play in a normal DVD player.

MythTV is something you really have to see or play with to appreaciate. It has been such a great program for me. Being able to tell it to always record certain shows whenever they are on is wonderful. It even knows which ones I've seen and won't record a duplicate.

Jeff

Re:I'd just buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

I have dish network which recognizes my VCR and I can tell it to record any show to my VCR. works good.

A lot of people can't buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

From the Tivo FAQ:

Can I buy a TiVo DVR in Canada?

No. TiVo DVRs are not currently available in Canada. At this time, TiVo DVRs are only available in the United States and in the United Kingdom.

Re:Sage TV

[TakenName]

Why on earth do you have that horribly offensive link in your sig? I mean honestly, that is just disgusting. I am sorry, I'm no prude, but I feel sick.

Distro???

[OneFix at Work]

Why hasn't someone put together a MythTV/Freevo distro??? It could be based on debian or something and would guide the user through the installation and setup of a stand alone setup. In reality, this should be one of the options in a distro that could have support for a PVR, MP3/OGG Jukebox, Arcade Emulator, etc...this seems like a no-brainer and would certainly allow for more ppl to participate in the community.

Even better, why not a live CD which could be used to test hardware and tweak settings with an option to install...much like knoppix...

Re:Distro???

[Spamlent Green]

Someone has -- it's called KnoppMyth

I had some trouble using it so went with a traditional RH 9/MythTV install, but I expect it's improved since then.

Re:Distro???

[Anonymous Coward]

I also had problems with the KnoppMyth install; never was able to get it to work right. I've since installed it on Mandrake 9.2. Everything works okay, with the exception of my SB Live 5.1 card, which I just haven't taken the time to figure out how to switch to digital out instead of analog....

Re:Distro???

[mjallison]

To me, this is the really important point about building one of these boxes. I've spent about 2 hours putting together the hardware (at a very relaxed pace). Much more time has been spent putting the software together.
Because I am using the VIA Nehemiah board, I tried "freepia" (freepia.org) which is made for this board. It didn't detect my Win-TV card properly, and the player application crashed. While the Freevo app itself was fine, the other problems cause me to believe that I can not really use it in that form.
The best part about the freepia distro is that is boots in under 1 minute, mostly runs out of a RAM disk. This is good because I can program the machine to wake up 1 or 2 minutes before the next scheduled recording and it won't sound like a bucket of bolts. Red Hat loads so much stuff (mostly not needed) that the disk sounds like it going to go into orbit compared to the lite weight freepia. I certainly don't want that noisy thing starting up at 3 AM!
Perhaps it's time to make my own.

Re:I'd just buy one

[jpsst34]

Now, go play with your homebrew PVR, while the rest of us uninformed people actually watch TV convieniently, without spending any extra time or money to do so in a "cool" fashion.

I'll second this, PVR Zealot. You go out and learn stuff while captain-lazoid here watches TV conveniently. Then be sure to shake your fist angrily as he gets promoted to head-PHB while you do enjoyable work.

Me? I'll be right behind you on the DIY projects for the sake of learning. Just let me finish bottling this homebrew Porter.

Linux AV control

[Doc Ruby]

I've got a dedicated PIII/550 running kernel v2.4.20/Debian v3.0/GNOME v2.4/XMMS v1.2.8 connected to the audio-in on my TV, but the video-in channel just comes from my cable(modem) box. I want to remote control that box across my 100bT ethernet, from a similarly-outfitted Debian desktop. If I wanted the TV to just act as a monitor for the PC, with the cable going in, with TiVo+ features, DVD player, and XMMS, which video card could I use? What SW lashes all this together?

Re:Linux AV control

[Alphix]

I think MythTV as mentioned in the article would be something for you. It's got a web control interface as an optional module.

Your processor may be a problem though as the computer needs to do coding and decoding on the fly (to enable the "pause" features).

You best bet may be the Hauppage 350 card since it can do both decoding and encoding in hardware, thereby offloading the processor. It also has a remote control if you need one.

missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

buy a new aiw and a dvd burner. It comes with Guide+ which solves the issue of programs listings and scheduling that most of the slashdot weenies wont address in their posts because they don't have an answer. If you want to give 1/2 answer...go find a site with 1/2 problems. The cost is more but try playing battlefield 1942 on a tivo.

Re:I'd just buy one

[The_K4]

Or buy one of these and call it a day. It's cheeper the TiVo and no service is required!

You can start here

[joestump98]

http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2003/11/13 /linux_pvr.html

--Joe

ps. noted bias: I wrote the article and it links to the Freevo HOWTO that I also wrote.

My setup

[Eponymous, Showered]

I have a 1GHz TBird + cheap mobo, 256MB RAM, a 40GB HD, cheap case, a GeForce 4 MX440, and a PVR250. I'm using ATI's Remote Wonder and running SnapStream PVS 3.4 beta (on Win2K) with myHTPC as a frontend. Functionality-wise, it's a great setup. I'm about to pop another 80GB drive in and I'll be set for a while. All in all, with parts I already had, I think it put about $500 into hardware and software and enjoy having the system.

On the downside, there was far too much fiddling I had to do to get things right. If I were to do it all again, I probably would just by a TiVO and get the home media option.

Bottom line: Whatever you do, get a PVR250/350 for your capture card. Software capture cards simply don't hold a candle. Everyone who starts with a WinTV Go or other software card ends up upgrading to a PVR250 (yours truly included). Do yourself a favor and go straight for the PVR250.

Re:sure just buy a tivo if all you want is a PVR..

[Acidic_Diarrhea]

First off, I hate the abbreviation "digicam"; it seems far too similar to digimon. Now, you don't want to go making people think you like anime, do you?

Second of all, why would I only be able to view photographs taken with a digital camera? Wouldn't any photograph that's been encoded in a digital format be viewable, given the correct software? For instance, 35 mm film can be processed and then digitized through the use of what we in the know call "scanners" - would you like to know more?

Re:I'd just buy one

[geoffspear]

Actually, according to their website, they charge $5/month unless you subscribe to Total Choice Premier, which costs $88/month. I've got Total Choice Plus with Local Channels ($40/mo) and they are charging my for my tivo service.

Linux HTPC How-to

[lothar88]

as someone who's never built a linux machine from scratch, i found this to be helpful:

Linux HTPC How-to

--brian

Don't forget power consumption

[geekee]

Since the box you're constructing will be on all the time, if the power supply is supplying 250W, that could impact your electric bill much more than a lower power TiVo (50W?). for instance, $2 if you pay 0.15/KWhr

Snapstream

[BillFarber]

Please check out snapstream. I built my own using snapstream for the video functions and love it.

Re:Snapstream

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're not ideologically opposed to using a windows environment snapstream is a very simple and impressive solution.

The install will take an hour or two at most.

Mythtv is very nice but does need more maintenance and takes a lot longer to install initially.

My only advice would be to base your system around a hauppgae 250 or 350. Knocks the spots off any ATI card on my system.

Tivo's fine but I got annoyed with all the stuff it can't do....

Re:Snapstream

[Anonymous Coward]

"I haven't coughed up the cash ..."

yes, yes you have.

Re:Snapstream

[slaker]

Good thing I didn't mention the speakers then.

The whole set-up cost a hair over $20,000, which is doesn't strike me as unreasonable. That's what a mid-size car costs, or a high-end motorcycle, or a bass fishing boat. I don't have or want those things, but I do want to have an awesome experience when I'm watching movies or listening to music.

Besides, one of my brothers is a nutball audiophile. I think his last pair of speakers cost twice what my whole AV setup did.

Re:Snapstream

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know we all hate you.

I just dare you, give us your address.

My Direct TV Tivo was pretty darn cheap....

[tinrobot]

I just installed a Direct TV system and added on a 35 hour Tivo box for an extra 50 bucks. The cost of the Tivo service is 5 bucks a month on top of the normal bill, but the service includes stuff like season pass... totally worth it.

So... for $50, plus $60/year I have Tivo... and it works great out of the box. I doubt I could build a home brew system any cheaper.

Of course, you have to have Direct TV, but that starts at $34/month, which is a lot less than the cable rates where I live...

A couple of things Myth and Freevo can do

[bigjnsa500]

What they can do that TiVo can't do is unlimited storage and playback of other media. I am sure I am not the only one that has zillions of Divx/Xvid movies on CDs. Tivo can't play those. Second, sure you have 40-80 hours of storage on your Tivo, but what happens if you want to archive it? Or burn it? You can't get the video OFF the machine unless you open it up and transplant the HD into your computer? You have 39.7 hours of Will and Grace and you can't record tonights episode? What do you do?

With that said, I will only buy a PVR if it has the following options:

1. Built-in DVD player that does VCD/SVCDs, Divx and Xvid.
2. 10/100 ethernet
3. Standard network file system access to my recordings with NFS and Samba file sharing.

Re:Sage TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Well see..it's proof that google is evil.

You see it was google that made you see that horribly offensive picture.

Re:Sage TV

[digerata]

Why oh why did I feel the need to click on your signature link?!

The worst mistake I ever made.

who says you have to buy new?

[SuperBanana]

Hmm... PC $600 + about a month configuring it to work as a PVR.

Uh, hello, have you heard of buying these things called used computers?

I bought a P3-650 w/128MB of ram and a 60gb HD for about $100. The PVR-250 card was $150-ish. Genuine intel mobo, ATI rage pro video card(fine for my needs). I'm going to use it just for recording- the powerbook is for watching.

That's about $50-$150 cheaper than your solution...and I'd need to do as much configuring to get the Tivo to share the media files; certainly not via appleshare/SMB/web. With a full fledged linux box, I can do whatever I want, and get web control of it too. Can't press "record" on the TiVo from work, now can you?

Now, if only configuring MythTV wasn't such a royal PITA; it has no debug output, and piss-poor docs. I gave up trying to work on it, haven't touched it in month. I got the encoder card working, but never got the frontend to do anything except lock up when trying to view TV. I never got the backend to do any recording...

Re:who says you have to buy new?

[Tony Hoyle]

Can't press "record" on the TiVo from work, now can you?

Um, yes, actually.

PVR-250 is hopelessly inadequate for modern PVR. It's got an analogue tuner, FFS!!! At least get a DVB card.

Re:who says you have to buy new?

[AKnightCowboy]

PVR-250 is hopelessly inadequate for modern PVR. It's got an analogue tuner, FFS!!! At least get a DVB card.

What's wrong with analog? Everything I record is on broadcast TV channels anyway so I couldn't care less.

Re:who says you have to buy new?

[Anonymous Coward]

DVB is only used in certain countries. If TiVo is an option, you're going to want an 8VSB card instead, and those still tend to be expensive and proprietary.

Re:who says you have to buy new?

[dventimi]

>>Can't press "record" on the TiVo from work, now can you?

>Um, yes, actually.

This is misleading. By "..press 'record' on the TiVo from work..." I presume the poster means scheduling recordings over the internet. This cannot be done with a stock TiVo, at least with the Series2 I have. One must purchase the pricey ($99) "Home Media Option" to be able to do this. With MythTV and SnapStream it comes for free.

Re:who says you have to buy new?

[Scyber]

Can't press "record" on the TiVo from work, now can you?

With replay you can: http://rtvrc.sourceforge.net/

Re:who says you have to buy new?

[splatter]

Can't press "record" on the TiVo from work, now can you?

Sure can. Buy a replay

Dp

DVD-Recorder...

[ErnstKompressor]

Offload to a Philips DVD+R-type device in 'unprotected' mode and pop it into your computer...

It's cheaper if you use your current PC for a PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

If you use your existing PC, it is much cheaper than TiVo. With the PVR-250 card, the PC records and the CPU utilization is very low (2.5 GHz P4, 1 GB RAM, 120 GB disk for recording). The PC is 100% usable when it's recording. The only drawback is that you can't watch TV/recordings and use the PC at the same time.

I have a Hauppauge PVR-250 Freestyle ($90 on eBay) and SnapStream software for XP ($55 direct, free listings). I also had to get a remote ($35 for a USB remote on eBay).

Read the January LinuxJournal

[BladeRider]

They have an article on building a PC based personal video recorder. As others have mentioned, the DVB card is the expensive component.

Liquidation Series 1 + your own listing server

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd buy a series 1 tivo at liquidation site ($140)
and set up my own listing server similar to
http://www.tivocanada.com/ with your xmltv listing
for your location

spend another $120 on a 120GB HD
ethernet card $60

with a bit of shopping you can do better

Via Epia-M board (like SolarPC), with Reservations

[skipintro]

I've built a MythTV box, and although I am happy with what I built, the next time around I would build something similar to the SolarPVR:
http://www.solarpc.com/20.htm

It has:

• Via Epia-M mother board -- This is the best mother board for building a Linux PVR because it is small, cheap, and when combined with Via's low powered processor can run completely fanless due to its low power consumption. Noise and size are more important than you'd think.
  
• PVR-250 (or 350) -- Because the Via Epia motheboard includes a onboard mpeg decoder you don't really nead the PVR-350 for mpeg decoding, but the few extra dolars for the 350 couldn't hurt. (If you get a regular motherboard with a 2+ Ghz processor you can make due with a regular bttv based software encoding card, but the PVR-250/350 cards are really cool and the relatively stable ivtv drivers seem to be working great on my machine). Plus the remote they come with works great.
  
• 120+ Gig hardrive (Wester Digital 8mb buffer) For the hardrive, you basically want something big, especially if your going to use the kickass PVR250/350 card which defaults to DVD quality encoding. You can lower the encoding bitrate on the 350/250, but once you get used the higher quality you'll find it is well worth the space. At this highest bitrate level they take up about 3.7 Gigs for an hour. So 120 Gig machine will give you about 30 hours. (I have actually set mine to record at a lower bitrate, so they take about 2.2 Gigs per hour. And the quality is still way better than what you'd get at maximum quality on a crapy little Tivo).
  
• A plain black aluminum case -- because it will look more like a Tivo. You won't have to explain to hot chicks why you have a stupid looking plastic putty-toned computer sitting next to your TV.
  

Those are the bare neccesities if your just going to be cheap. I am cheap/poor too, so that is all I have. Someday I'll get a nice DVD burner so I can archive stuff I might want to see again somday. I also want a wireless keybaord.

For further info check out the PVR Hardware Database:
http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-view_art icles.php

They have a page with some nice installation guides:
http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-page.php?p ageName=i nstall_guides

As you can see I am all for building a MythTV box, but having built one, I have to warn you that the software isn't perfect yet. It really kicks Tivo's ass in terms of functionality (I love the MythWeb interface, and you can set it too completely cut out commercials, which it does surprisingly accurately), but it still can be a little buggy sometimes and should only be used by people who like to tinker.

Re:I'd just buy one

[magicalyak]

MythTV uses a grab utility that downloading listings, information and more from zap2it.com. Works very well.

Re:sure just buy a tivo if all you want is a PVR..

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a moron. The grandparent poster knows what he's talking about, and you're just a pedant who likes to hear himself talk. Your post was utterly devoid of value - you may stop posting now,you will thank me in the afterlife for my advice.

Re:I'd just buy one

[CXI]

Yes, I'm sure the person who asked the question "How do I get a Tivo cheap" is so interested in the concept for the DIY aspects. That's why they used "cheap" instead of asking "How do I make a Tivo to make me a better person", right? No, wait... Nice try though. You almost got me to get off my lazy ass and learn something for the good of mankind such as digital TV recording, but in the end my laziness won out so mankind is doomed. All of this studying of topics unrelated to television is such a waste, I know that now. Thanks for the enlightenment.

This is how I built my "Tivo"

[Bishop639]

I built a MythTV box and went the Mini-ITX route for $500. I paid more for the small size, considering I could have gotten more CPU power, etc. for less money.

For case, I used the Morex Cubid 2699R. It's about the size of a 12" pizza box (much smaller than the VCR that it replaced!), and uses a 50W external power supply, which *significantly* cuts down on noise. My hard drive is the biggest contibutor to noise with this setup. I got my case for about $80 US.

I keep it in my TV cabinet without an attached mouse, keyboard, or monitor. Just connected to TV and my LAN, and controlled via remote control.

You can see pics and a review of its older cousin at:
http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/2688R/

As for the rest, I got:

Motherboard:
VIA EPIA M10000 ($150-$160 US) - Has onboard ethernet, 5.1 audio, video,
and one PCI slot. Processor is already on it. Processesor has
exceptionally low power requirements (compared to high-end AMD/Intel).
Memory:
Crucial 512mb DDR (if you do decide on the 2699R case, make sure the RAM
height is below 34mm or it won't fit - the Crucial fit just fine)
Tuner:
Hauppauge PVR-350 (less than $200 via pricewatch.com)
Its included remote works really well under LIRC

DVD:
Some generic slimline DVD player for $55.
If you get the 2699R case, you need a slimline which means more $$
Note that as of current date, MythDVD and MythVideo don't work
with the PVR-350, so you won't be able to watch DVD's (yet).

Hard drive:
I used an old IBM drive laying around, I plan on upgrading to a Seagate Barracuda which is rated at 20dB while idling.

Now the pros and cons of my setup:

Pros:
Very small, very quiet
PVR-350 with the Epia M10000 uses only 3% (!!!) CPU utilization during
playback and record
Front of case has firewire/usb connections if I need later on
Even without MythDVD or MythVideo support, it's already better than a
commercial Tivo because (1) I can record at higher bitrate and resolution,
and (2) I have direct access to the recorded videos, so that (3) I can
archive to DivX or DVD...

Cons:
No DVD or avi/quicktime/etc. file playback since I've using a PVR-350 (hopefully soon though!)
I couldn't use the already built 0.11 .deb packages since I was using the
PVR-350. I ended up compiling both IVTV and MythTV CVS instead.
Since there's no attached keyboard/mouse/monitor, I need to ssh from
a different computer on the network, but I actually prefer it this way

Hope that helps

Best reason for homebrew: PC tech is always ahead

[spleenhead]

PC hardware and software will always be ahead of the consumer PVR boxes.

I've always wanted a product that integrated all the audio and video features I want in my entertainment center. But sure enough, as soon as some product comes out that can do what I want today, there'll be new software and hardware for the PCs that it cannot do. The homebrews are my best chance of getting those features sooner.

Of course, that means I'll probably always have to hack it. Its unfortunate, but probably worth it

Re:sure just buy a tivo if all you want is a PVR..

[Shads]

> Now, you don't want to go making people
> think you like anime, do you?

I *do* like anime, just not crap kiddie anime like anything with a "mon", "pet", "pichi", or "princess" in the title.

Re:Sage TV

[cat_jesus]

How do you control the thing? Can you use a remote control with it?

Who going to take the challenge??

[catatonicmadness]

Who wants to take the challenge and convert an XBOX into PVR.

This Christmas....

[Trelane]

I'm reusing my old Pentium II 400 MHz box as a PVR. I'm throwing down the cash for the WinTV PVR 350, since it does both hardware and software compression, which is the reason you need a beefy box to do it (and is why TiVos can get away with not being beefy).

The only other costs are going to be a wireless card for it (since running a wire in plaster-lath walls between floors would be a huge PITA), and a hard drive if I decide the ones I have are too small. It'll come out to be about the price of a Tivo box alone--if I end up getting a 60-120GB hard drive.

If I werent' getting anything but the WinTV card, it'd be on par with the weakest TiVo they offer before subscription costs.

Add to that the fact that I can integrate it seamlessly into my home network including my audio file server, and the fact that I can upgrade any part of the hardware or software I want (actually, when I can afford it, I'm going to be migrating it to a miniITX), and it's a really sweet deal.

freevo is for me.

[TheWezzel]

This is how and why I use it. I did not need all the features of a tivo box. I wanted two things to be able to watch shows via a smb share on any computer and able to select what I wanted to record via the web. Freevo made divx's by default.(Mplayer,winplayer,xine readable) So, I choosed Freevo. Mythtv seemed to have a lot of added features that would get in my way. Only issue I have had is that XMLTV needs to be updated about every 3 months do to the format on the site it gets the tv listings has changed it's format. Gentoo was the easiest to setup freevo on. Redhat and Debian was kinda hard getting all the packages needed to run right. But I use Alsa for it's advanced recording controls. That caused most of my issues.

The cheap option is now to buy a real one

[dspyder]

I've always maintained that buying a real Tivo was always the cheaper option, especially if you count the costs of your time involved. Now, even not counting those costs the commercial product is much cheaper! If "cheap" is really what you want (as it's listed in your request) then you really need to look at it closely.

With a new account (1 year contract) at DirecTV or Dish you can get a free or cheap PVR included... and many other benefits (3 rooms, free installation, etc. etc.). Certain plans (Platinum level or some shiiiiii) even give you the PVR subscription fee included (or included in your receiver mirroring fee).

I'm not saying you shouldn't try building one yourself, but the argument was usually "I could build one cheaper with parts I have lying around" however most people then went out and spent $75-$100 on a brand new capture card. With subsidized

MythTV has definitely progressed along the years, but it's still not 100% reliable (what open-source anything ever is truly complete, tested, and waranteed). That being said, it definitely has some other cool "Media" functions that I really would like in my family room. Of course, I'm not willing to live with the ugly beige box and noise (before you say silent processors and slimline cases, add those costs to your initial argument).

If I truly had the hardware lying around (I don't) and I truly wanted a project not just the end Tivo functionality (I don't) and I was willing to put up with all the tinkering and annoyances required (I might be, wife definitely isn't) then I would consider doing it.

--Darren

Re:The cheap option is now to buy a real one

[leighklotz]

(what open-source anything ever is truly complete, tested, and waranteed).
After six months of futzing with Freevo I finally gave up and got TiVO for $4.95 with a new satellite installation from Value Electronics, which came with free installation, oddly enough done by Vladimir of Sputnik TV.

The DirecTiVO pretty much works like it's supposed to, but it's utterly non-hackable, and contrary to your implication that it's completed and tested, I find that about twice a month it goes into a bad skip / synch mode and stops responding to menus for minutes at a time, fails to record large sections of TV, and eventually I have to pull the plug (and re-apply the one hack that works).

So while I'd love to have an open-source solution that works (and maybe this Knoppix+MythTV is it), I'd also love to have a commercial solution that works. Neither is perfect though.

Re:The cheap option is now to buy a real one

[fantastic]

"but it's utterly non-hackable"

hmm I have tivoweb on my directivo, the perfect hack for editing season passes etc, try it.

My Hughes directivo does run at about 50+ deg so good ventilation is needed. I've never experienced the issues you report and I've had this unit about 2 years and a standalone before that.

Re:The cheap option is now to buy a real one

[leighklotz]

I would like to hack my DirecTivo, but the only thing I can find is a hack where you take out the disk, install an old image on it (which btw I hear Tivo has forced sites to remove), boot up, patch it, and then install the later image, patch it, and the install TivoWeb. I would be willing to do this -- I hacked the I-Opener and the Audrey -- but the Tivo needs sofyware updates (the season pass manager was added in one) and you have to redo all that if you do. So "uterly unhackable" was an overstatement.

Or am I wrong and there is a better way?

Re:I'd just buy one

[MindStalker]

Wow thanks, somehow I managed to completly misread that. Thanks for the heads up. BTW I have heard that DirectTV won't honor lifetime subscription services unless bought before their decision not to honor.

MythTV box that I have never finished.

[harshaw]

I started working on a mythTV box over the summer. Between getting all the hardware together, building linux, building mythTV and getting the confounded PVR card to work correctly I have not yet finished the project to my satisfaction.

I realized a couple of things with this project: a) I work all day on software and don't want to spend my evening hacking stuff together anymore b) It would have been cheaper to buy a tivo and c) miniITX hardware is very hard to use. The quality of the TV out on my Nehemiah is disappointing.

My Solution

[barryfandango]

My solution doesn't get me all the functionality of a TiVo but it only cost me about $150 and very little setup time.

I installed an ATI TV Wonder in my Windows XP PC. It includes a free program guide service and the ability to schedule recordings using any installed codec. I used the S-VHS secondary out on my video card and a split line-out from my soundcard to run to an RF Modulator (radio shack, ~$40) that stuffs these signals into a coaxial cable, which runs upstairs to my television. I installed MyHTPC (it's on sourceforge) for a frontend to browse media.

With the auxilliary output clicked off, i get standard cable on the TV. With the aux output clicked on, i get the MyHTPC menu which I control with an ATI Remote Wonder. It lets me watch any video files, or play any audio on my hard drive.

This was a perfect solution for me, because it lets me record programs, view legal public domain movies that i download from various p2p services as well as use my entertainment system as an mp3 jukebox. Another user can still use the computer downstairs while i'm watching content, because the primary display is unaffected (with a second sound card, the separation could be complete.) Best of all it didn't require a second machine, which is a huge plus. It was cheap, setup within a few hours, and hasn't given me any trouble since I got everything working. Good luck with your project!

Distribution Choice - Installation prefference?

[acherrington]

What Distribution are you (anyone answer) for your linux choice. I have had problems with mythknoppix and fedora core 1. Anyone have something that works well for newer technologies? Gentoo anyone?

how does apt-get work for you? do you use it, or do you build all of the dependicies?

Re:Distribution Choice - Installation prefference?

[Chang]

I've been running myth since 0.7.

I've used RedHat 9 and Debian unstable. Both worked fine.

I switched to Gentoo about 2 months ago and haven't looked back. The only things I wasn't able to emerge were the PVR driver and the driver for my USB wireless NIC.

I use two BT8x8 cards and a PVR-250 (Cable, Satelite, and one for recording random stuff from VCR or other analog feed).

The main reason I switched were because I wanted to try Gentoo and also because setting up Bootsplash was dead simple under Gentoo.

Re:Sage TV

[j-turkey]

- Record two standard def stations, and a high def station at the same time while watching a fourth video of any type. (Obviously, this requires having two tuners and an HDTV tuner.)

Which HD tuner do you use? Would you recommend it? How is the image quality? How much did it cost?

Thanks,

--Turkey

What link??? is slashdot censored???

[Anonymous Coward]

seriously where is said link? that sucks if they censor it.

Re:What link??? is slashdot censored???

[Anonymous Coward]

It's tubgirl. Not worth viewing. By anyone.

Re:What link??? is slashdot censored???

[real bio]

It's not censored, it's still in the signature, you probably turned off viewing signatures. But I really don't recommend you to check it (I had once done in a very unlucky day).

Re:What link??? is slashdot censored???

[RobertB-DC]

you probably turned off viewing signatures

IIRC, AC's don't see .sigs. You have to be logged in to see the signature lines.

And there seem to be a lot of folks that don't know that changing your .sig in "Preferences" changes it for all messages ever posted.

If the AC wants a description of the .sig, I'd recommend Wikipedia: Slashdot Trolling Phenomena describes the "why", and Shock Sites describes the "how". That will prevent the need to run to the nearest emergency eyewash station.

Sure..but

[msimm]

A MythTV box is much more flexable and with the MythVideo plugin intalled you can view all your Mplayer compatable video (pretty much everything under the sun) or with the MythDVD plugin you can view and rip your DVD's (or compress and archive them). Its also themeable and a couple of the user (?) submitted themes are sweet (and easy to use). Oh, of course it handles CD's/Mp3/Oggs and can rip and eject your music collection. Did I mention that that MythMusic plugin also does visual plugins do you can watch your screen while you listen to all your music? It seems almost not worth mentioning that Myth can also chech your weather forcast and pull in the Slashdot headlines.

Oh, and if you get bored with all that you've got a fully functioning PC sitting plugged into your HDTV. Its not for everybody, but as a serious computer user it sure hits the spot.

Re:Sure..but

[Anonymous Coward]

A MythTV box is much more flexable

"Flexible" = unintegrated, buggy, inelegant, unintuitive, kludgy, messy crap.

TiVo = well integrated, rock-solid stable, elegant, intuitive, easy to use, well thought out.

Besides, there are hacks that allow TiVo to get your weather forcasts, stock quotes, all kinds of stuff. TiVo is quite hackable. There is even an O'Reilly book about TiVo hacks.

Not to mention HMO, which allows mp3 playing, picturing viewing, and there is an HMO API that will allow even more third party hacks and software in future.

Re:I'd just buy one

[pdhenry]

>> not so good for the geek who has to have the latest tech.
But a used TiVo with an intact lifetime subscription should be worth at least $100-150 more on the secondary market than one without, shouldn't it?
It was always my understanding that the lifetime subscription was transferrable (since, as you point out, it's for the life of the unit).

myHTPC

[VoiceOfRaisin]

myHTPC http://myhtpc.net/ is a great frontend as well. ive been using it for a few months now and love it. and altho the system i built may have cost double what a tivo costs, the tivo functions are only a SMALL PART of what i do with this box. i stream movies and other content from the other pcs in my house. the box is actually my internet router. and most importantly, its also a videogame system. the radeon all in wonder 9600 is not only wonderful for tv apps, its a very powerful 3d card. you can go play with your tivos, ill sit back with my joystick and play the simpsons hit and run on my bigscreen tv.

Time Warner alternative

[thung226]

I was in the same boat, researching alternatives to TiVo, until Time Warner (very quietly) came out with their own DVR service in my area.

Only $9 extra a month, and *no added cost* for the DVR itself. I just had to exchange converters.

Of course, not all of the bells and whistles of TiVo, mythTV, snapstream - favorites, suggestions, online and WAP enabled phone access, etc - but it's worth it... at least until you find a reason to spend the extra $xxx.xx for the added features of the other guys.

remember the old phrase...

[precogpunk]

time = money

You should also factor in how many hours it will take to put it all together. Most of us with enough technical skill to contruct one of these make more than $10/hr and I'm guessing you'd spend more then 10 hours setting it up.

Re:remember the old phrase...

[Anonymous Coward]

That only applies to businesses. Unless your employer pays you hourly and approves unlimited overtime, your spare time has no monetary value.

Re:remember the old phrase...

[laird]

Not all time is billable. Putting together a MythTV is _fun_, not _work_. If you can build one for $400, and assemble it in your spare time for fun, it only cost $400. If you build MythTV's to sell for a living, I guess it's fair including your time as a cost... :-)

Re:remember the old phrase...

[Tombstone-f]

Except for the fact that you will most likely be doing this in your free time when you would otherwise not be working. You would lose time when you could be relaxing or spending time with other people, but not money.

Re:remember the old phrase...

[PierceLabs]

I can arguably get more money, but I as of yet don't know how I could possibly get more time :)

I use Myth because it is a more ideal solution, but I have certainly wasted a LOT of my life fighting with and configuring it. Time I could have spent doing much more lucrative things :)

Re:remember the old phrase...

[elmegil]

Spare time? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

We ain't got no steenking spare time in my house, and that's with only ONE child.

Re:remember the old phrase...

[laird]

"Spare time? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

We ain't got no steenking spare time in my house, and that's with only ONE child."

Well, yeah, but nobody's going to pay you to do _that_. :-)

Re:remember the old phrase...

[casret]

This is the original poster's point. Do it if you would find it fun, don't do it just for the money.

Re:remember the old phrase...

[MisterFancypants]

Well, yeah, but nobody's going to pay you to do _that_.

I might pay his wife though. I'd have to see a picture first.

Re:remember the old phrase...

[Anonymous Coward]

We ain't got no steenking spare time in my house, and that's with only ONE child.

You have my sympathies. I have friends who are in similar problem situation through either a condom breaking or being stupid and believing pulling out before ejaculating is a form of birth control. I on the other hand have plenty of time and use it to build my MythTV box. You should just buy a TiVo.

Re:remember the old phrase...

[MrNemesis]

Surely if you're going to be flogging MythTV boxes, you're going to have uniform hardware, right?

So once you've got the ideal setup, just image using your fave imaging software (I got several copies of Ghost 2003 that a client didn't want when they ordered some external HDD's - I'm sure there are Linux native imagers out there but never had any experience with them) and cos I'd stuck with ext3 (which Ghost supports natively) I was able to image them over the LAN. I don't flog Myth boxes, but when I last fubarred the kernel, all the box needed was a boot floppy and a network cable, and back it was in working order, hence avoiding the pain of another Gentoo install, especially since getting the PVR-250 to work was an absolute bitch.

PS..

[msimm]

Why not make it $400 in tv cards and record both those shows simultaneously? Myth supports multiple video cards and PIP. Drool..

the cheapie route....

[The Lynxpro]

"Since I'm cheap, and don't want to pay monthly fees to Tivo, I am researching building my own low-budget Personal Video Recorder and player. Free software options include Freevo and MythTV. Hardware options are the main cost factor. How would you go about building the perfect low-budget PVR?"

Since you are *cheap* (self described), you probably should take advantage of DirecTV's offer of up to 3 room viewing installed for $99 with the $38.99 per month or more plan selected. For your living room, you will have a receiver with a TiVo Series2 unit built in (40 hour unit). You'll only pay $4.99 per month more to use the TiVo, but if you move up to a Total Choice Programming Package, you won't pay that service fee at all.

Or, if you prefer a stand-alone unit (if you are sticking with cable television), you can get a 40 hour unit for $199 after rebate. Slap on a $20 Belkin Ethernet-to-USB dongle and you can connect the TiVo to your home network and bypass the need to make the "daily call" using a phone line. Even with a "Lifetime" subscription, you'll still beat the cost of building a decent dedicated PC DVR unit, not to mention the added time of setting up such an endeavour. Plus, the TiVo unit will fit with the rest of your A/V equipment footprint-wise, whereas the PC won't --unless you go with an ITX mobo and then you'll have to contend with a low powered Via processor, not an AMD or Intel genuine math-crunching goodness processor.

Gag!

[BLKMGK]

Gosh thanks for that - I'm leaving to puke now damn you!

I think I'd have preferred Goatse - gack!

Cool question...

[Alphix]

I just ordered my hardware for a MythTV based box two days ago after researching it for a long time. This is the shopping list I came up with.

• MSI MATX I865PEM2-ILS
• Samsung black combo 52X24X52+16X CD-RW/DVD
• WAG311GE Netgear Wireless .11ABG+ PCI
• Intel P4 2,6GHz 800/512K
• Hauppauge WinTV PVR 350
• MSI GeForce FX5200 TD128 with DVI and TV-OUT
• 512MB PC400 DDRAM
• Maxtor Dmax Plus9 200Gb 7200RPM 8Mb SATA
• Coolermaster ATC 620C-BX1

The reasoning for the different items are as follows:

A similar model of the motherboard got good reviews by Toms Hardware Guide (yes, I know some people in /. hate Tom). The integrated sound on this board was recommended to me by an ALSA developer. It's also got SATA, LAN, USB and Firewire and, as a nice bonus, both coax and optical digital sound outputs.

Samsung...didn't matter much as long as it had DVD and CD-RW capabilities, black front was a nice touch though.

WAG311GE, one of few cards that support A, B and G wireless networking. Supported in Linux by the MadWifi drivers, unfortunately not truly open source, but neither are any other ABG card drivers.

Intel processor, I usually like Athlons but temperature (and thereby cooling requirements) is much more important in this box than speed.

Hauppage, well supported by MythTV and able to do MPEG2 recording and playback in hardware.

MSI GeForce, has VGA, DVI and TV-Out, also fanless and really cheap. Closed drivers but that's kinda hard to avoid.

Maxtor drive, I really wanted a more quiet Seagate but the SATA models were kind of impossible to find in any nearby store for decent prices. Also most stores seemed to have the ones with the least storage capacity.

Coolermaster, the case isn't "designed" to be a HTPC case (such as this one) which means it doesn't have the same silly price tag. It was also the exact same width as my stereo components (well, 3mm wider) and similar color.

Now all I have to do is wait...

Re:Cool question...

[Hobbex]

Why spend all that money on a high end processor when you are spending $200 on a TV card that does the intense computing.

Wouldn't one of the cheap VIA processors that can run fanless be better?

Re:Cool question...

[nonmaskable]

Why the FX5200? Doesn't the PVR350 have video out?

Re:Cool question...

[technomancerX]

Support for the 350's tv out is still a bit flaky. It will probably be a few months before all of the kinks are worked out. Even so, this system is REALLY overkill. An NVidia 440MX vid card, 2GHz processor, and ata 100 or 133 HD would have been plenty of power.

Re:Cool question...

[Anonymous Coward]

pffft, even your specs are WAY overkill.

A 500 Mhz Pentium will work fine if you're using the PVR card.

And that nVidia card is OK if you're buying new since it's in the sweet spot for price, but if you have an old Vanta or TNT2 card those will work perfectly with more than enough power.

Re:Cool question...

[Alphix]

Yes maybe but the processor choice was made with these considerations:

1) My company has a deal with a large computer parts dealer. Buying trough them gives me a really good price and they only have Intel and AMD processors.

2) I have no experience at all with VIA processors and I tend to be hesitant to hardware I haven't tried previously (yes, I know it's a "chicken and the egg" kind of problem).

3) The processor comes in really handy when ripping DVD to MPEG4 (MPEG2 -> MPEG4 transcoding) since that takes alot of processing power if you want it to finish in a reasonable time. And that is something that I plan to alot...

Re:Cool question...

[Alphix]

I'm buying new so the FX5200, as an AC said elsewhere in this thread "..is OK if you're buying new since it's in the sweet spot for price".

It also makes the box more versatile since it means it has VGA, DVI and regular video as output sources. Some plasma screens have DVI connectors and a lot of projectors have VGA connectors.

mini-itx

[confused one]

Sounds like a good job for a mini-itx and a TV tuner card. The only question I'd have (since I haven't tried it) is: Does a VIA mini-itx have enough horsepower to record (encode) one show and play (decode) another at the same time. If not, there's a P4 mini-itx that should be available from Commell.

Re:Sage TV

[krwren]

Yes, I am using the demo version with a Hauppauge WINTV-PVR 250. The Remove that came with the card runs just fine. I don't even have a monitor hooked up to the computer running Sage.

Re:Sage TV

[BadCable]

Yes,

There are plenty of guides on how to use different types of remotes and IR controllers on the Sage TV message board

DirectTV

[Anonymous Coward]

I also want to build a Media Center PC, but what is the best way to manipulate my satellite receiver. The Tivo uses an IR tether.

smackjer

[smackjer]

Hardware upgrades will still cost you money, even with free software.

TiVo Guides -- Was Canada Re:I'd just buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use TiVo's in other countries with your own guides. How do you think Tridge does it? You make your own slices for the TiVo

http://www.tivocanada.com/

Ryvo

[finse]

Well, given all of the other setups listed here, I should probably add mine to the list.
First the hardware:
Athlon T-Bird
Dual 80 gig WD HD w/ 8 md cache (mirrored using linux software raid)
Gforce2 AGP
BMK kfir based mpeg2 encoder
Hollywood+ (mpeg2 decoder)
Matrix Orbital VFD
3c905b
IRman
VGA->Component video adaptor

Software:
This system is an LFS box. At this point, it is mostly a fully functional X terminal, using my 36" HDTV as its monitor. Every function is accessable via my remote control (mplayer, xine, xmms). The system can record, and play back TV although it lacks the ability to 'pause tv'.

My experince with HTPC/tivo like systems is they are anything but inexpensive. Add the time spend + the hardware costs, and well you have significantly exceeded the cost of a tivo. Was it worth it? You bet you ass it was.
The flexiblity made it worth the money. Besides, I cant check my yahoo mail from a tivo. :)

What if we don't want to spend ANY money?

[ClioCJS]

...and what if we run windows?

I am already using my Win2K computer to record tv shows, and have been for several years (since Win98).

I would be interested in a comparable package for Windows. I already have most of the functionality, but it is PAINFULLY MANUAL. I would love to improve it somehow. My existing setup is a patchwork of systems and I would love to have it integrated into something a bit more friendly.

My "monitor" is my 36' TV.
My "computer speakers" is my 120Wx5 stereo system.
My "software" is VirtualdubVCR (has a timer).
My "programming guide" is the Guide+ built into my TV, along with my own harvesting scripts. (And my wife.)
My capture codec is HuffYUV.
My encode codec is Xvid, 1-pass quality 93.
I use my own set of filters to clean up the image, and change my mind about the setup approximately every 3 months.
My offline storage is cdrs (1600) and dvdrs (up to 200 so far).

Is there any way that I can somehow get a MythTV type package comparable to this, for win32, without having to build everything from the ground up?

My current system can record a show while encoding another show while playing mp3s while surfing the web without dropping frames. It is an Athlon 900mHz with 768M ram and 360G HD.

What do I need for HD?

[F.O.Dobbs]

The only reason I'd want this is if Tivo never supports HD. So which cards are going to work for an HD solution? pchdtv.com's? Hauppage's new digital card? I for one, don't plan on respecting a broadcast flag. I've been looking at playing with either Freevo or MythTV just so I can switch over eventually. Freevo is written in Python (possibly easier to extend) but MythTV seems a little more mature. Anyone know of a good comparison?

F.O.Dobbs

Try this

[senior.ee]

I have a myth setup, and I agree with other posts where they say its a bit pain to setup. But there are .deb's and even rpms for some distros.

I already had a decent computer Athlon 2400, and use that as my desktop/server machine. I don't have it on all the time, but I can easily, and would probably benefit from that acting as ssh/web server.

Anyway, if you have a decent enough machine already (read >= p3 1ghz) that you already have as a normal linux server, go and put myth on it. Then go and buy a nice little mini-itx case (the new morex cases are very pretty and quite tiny, cost is about $85) Add onto it a 1Ghz EpiaM nehemiah, for about $160, and 256 megs of PC2100 ram, for about $40, and you got yourself a nice looking pretty silent mythfrontend machine. For the software, I highly recommend minimyth from linpvr.org which lets you boot into a great mythfrontend over the lan. Notice, no hard drive necessary.

Other hardware you might need is a lirc compatible receiver/remote for the mythfrontend, and if you need to, a remote transmitter for your main myth box so it can change channels on a cable box if you are connected to a cable box. (Get a bttv based card for your main machine, the pvr-250, 350 cards just don't cut it driverwise, too many problems)

So if you have a machine that can act as a server already, and invest in a $40 tuner card. The total of everything can come out to $400

Thanks to Isaac and others at mythtv.org and Larry at linpvr.org

Not to nit-pick..

[msimm]

But what open-source anything ever is truly complete, tested, and waranteed seems a little trollish. Not that I out right disagree with you, but its not anymore accurate then 'What Microsoft software product is ever is truly complete, tested, and waranteed'. I've been using MythTV for over a year and your right, sometimes it does flake out. I'd bet Tivo does too though, but at least they get to dictate what hardware their software is run on.

Just a minor point, but its a small peeve.

Re:Not to nit-pick..

[dspyder]

Agreed! It's pretty true about most software products (and recently hardware even)... but interestingly my UltimateTV (ironically a Microsoft product) hasn't had a update since June (or there abouts) and hasn't crashed on me once since then (it didn't recover gracefully from a power cut, but then neither did my Series2 Tivo.

--D

Cheap?

[scharkalvin]

By the time you buy the PVR350 card, a dvd burner, and of course, the motherboard, cpu, memory, disk, etc, you've already more than shelled out what a TIVO would have cost you in the first place.

And this month TIVO is giving a $50 rebate, so it's even cheaper. (Especially at places like Brands Mart).

Why bother with Myth (unless you REALLY want to hack together your own).

Hardware MPEG-2 if you want to record TV or DVDs

[Rick Richardson]

If you have any intent on building up a legal and huge collection of movies by capturing them off of cable TV, and you want to be able to play those movies on a standard consumer DVD player, then you must get a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.

The general rule about software MPEG-2 encoders is this: quality, low-CPU, realtime; pick any two.

If you don't care about being able record to DVD, and/or you want to record to DiVX and envision a house where all of your DVD players are DiVX-capable, then a $30 stereo tuner card will suffice for now.

I have two AverTV Stereo cards that are going up on eBay, because I decided that I really do want to record good quality MPEG-2 to DVD. I need to be able to hand my wife/kids a DVD of the favorite shows that she missed because I made them leave the house. I will be getting a PVR-250 like everybody else.

Note also that this advice applies to Windows people just as much as it does for Linux people. There are no software, high-quality, realtime MPEG-2 coders that don't require an overclocked cryogenically cooled CPU, regardless of what OS you run.

-Rick

I've reached this conclusion on throwaways at work

[swb]

We're about to retire a Netserver LH4 -- Dual P3 500s, 1 GB of RAM, 160GB of disk, multi-channel RAID 5. Nothing to write home about in terms of any of those specs, but as a freebie from the office it'd make a nice FreeBSD fileserver or something.

Until you look at the power consumption -- sheeit! All those 9 and 18GB HDDs suck AC harder than a 5 dollar whore on a Saturday night. It'd be far more cost effective in the first year for me to go out and buy a 3Ware RAID card and a couple of 160s to upgrade the existing cheapie tower I use for the same purpose.

I don't know how some of the enthusiasts with real old machines deal with this, maybe they just turn 'em on when the relatives visit.

Re:I'd just buy one

[MrAngryForNoReason]

Good point I hadn't thought of that. From TiVo.com

The product lifetime subscription accompanies the product in case of ownership transfer.

I've got to go with MythTV

[LilMikey]

The things I see in your list that MythTV doesn't do is recording shows based on your viewing habits which is one of the things I find repulsive about TiVo, and Myth only supports a few codecs... see nuvexport/mencoder.

- Record two standard (...) Check... in fact, the recording devices can be on different machines.
- Record standard TV to MPEG-2, MPEG-1, (...) OK, Myth's codecs are wrapped up in hybrid nupplevideo and require a touch of effort to convert.
- Playback using Dscalar to deinterlace the video. Check, optional deinterlacing built it.
- Play DVDs Check
- Play DivX Check
- Record shows as favorites (...) or based on my past viewing habits You can set up season-pass like sitations using the number of recording options and its priority system. I've already stated my opinion of guesswork recording
- Do all of the above with an integrated schedule, which is free. Check
- Play and manage my MP3 library Check
- Stream video and audio to another PC over my LAN. Check... as well as my X-Box

In addition, you get MythWeather which supplies weather reports to your screen, MythGallery for photos, MythGame which integrates with a number of emulators including MAME and NES emulators, MythWeb to set up recording over the internet. And you can theme it, it's free and runs on a free OS, the developers are fairly responsive and development is constantly moving forward. Go ahead and list your favorite features of SageTV and wait for them to be integrated into MythTV. :)

All that said, Sage does look like the most complete package for Windows (I used ShowShifter back in the day).

Re:I've got to go with MythTV

[captainstupid]

recording shows based on your viewing habits which is one of the things I find repulsive about TiVo

EASILY disabled on TiVo.

Re:I've got to go with MythTV

[schmoli]

The things I see in your list that MythTV doesn't do is recording shows based on your viewing habits which is one of the things I find repulsive about TiVo

As the above poster mentioned, it's easily disabled, but I really gotta say I love this feature, once properly trained. I know that at any time, I can put some seinfeld or simpsons rerun on because I've tought my tivo to go ahead and record these or similar shows whenever it can.

Re:I've got to go with MythTV

[JWW]

I have got to agree Myth rocks!!! I love the net streaming of video (and even live TV).

The only other feature I want now is some sort of archiving module that automatically burns shows to DVD/VCD. I've burned some PVR output to VCD already, but I would really like myth to handle it.

The archiving module has been mentioned on the mailing list somewhat already, my guess is it will be in the 0.14 or 0.15 release sometime next spring.

But Myth is truly an awesome system with great features and a lot of polish. It really is a killer application for linux.

Re:I've got to go with MythTV

[Sethb]

Yeah, I have to say, anyone who doesn't like this feature is probably a misinformed idiot. TiVo doesn't delete your shows to record "Suggestions", it doesn't refuse to record one of your shows either. All TiVo is doing is saying "Hey, you have some free hard drive space, and I'm just sitting here idle, I might as well put some content on that space for you, in case you run out of things to watch later".

I really don't understand what's creepy or annoying about that feature, the box is going to be powered on anyhow, there's absolutely no reason not to use that feature.

And, if for some reason you don't like it, as the previous poster said, you can EASILY disable it. You go into the Settings menu, and just tell it not to record Suggestions.

Re:I've got to go with MythTV

[LilMikey]

I guess to me it's like Windows Update... it's easy enough to turn off, but I still hate it like the devil! Besides, TiVo IS collecting your viewing habits and that's probably going to get bigger before it gets smaller.

Re:I've got to go with MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a paranoid moron. If you can turn it off, why would it bother you? Suggestions is useful; it doesn't interfere with your recordings, it doesn't take up hard drive space you need, it sometimes gives you shows you want to watch but were not aware of. It's a positive feature all around. But you can turn it off if you want to.

As to viewing habits, you can tell TiVo not to collect your viewing habits if you wish. You'd be an idiot, but you can do it. The viewing habits info is aggregate, in other words, no one could trace it back to you, and it might help ensure that shows you like to watch stay on the air, rather than get cancelled. But if you are really a paranoid moron, you can tell TiVo not to collect your info, and they won't. End of story.

Re:I've got to go with MythTV

[LilMikey]

So I'm a moron for not liking TiVo because, by default, it records things I don't want it to record and tells other people what I'm watching? Better idea, buy a ReplayTV... you get all of the benfits of TiVo and none of that crap. Even better idea, setup a MythTV box. More features than either, none of the crap, and open development. BTW, how brave of you AC.

Comercial Advance?

[dokewalker]

The one thing I love about my Replay is it skips comercials automaticly, and does a pretty good job at it too. (About 75% of the time) Do any of these build-your-own PVRs do that yet?

Re:Comercial Advance?

[aonaran]

Myth supports 2 different commercial skip modes (3 if you count using both together)

Re:Comercial Advance?

[Anonymous Coward]

mythtv does

Re:I'd just buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

The guy requested a way to make exactly a Tivo but without paying for it.

Convenient access to TV has apparently destroyed your reading comprehension. I recommend you go back and read the post again...

Knoppmyth, yet again...

[dameron]

Knoppmyth is a fully installable Knoppix(debian) distro with mythtv. Knoppmyth is a pvr, has tv with a guide to your local cable/sat provider, weather, news, a dvd playing, an mp3 player (and indexing, by group and album, with visualizations), cd ripper with artist and title lookup, emulator frontend, and vcd player.

You can burn the iso, assemble your pvr/media machine, boot of the iso, provide a few usernames and passwords and Knoppmyth will partition and install everything you need to get MythTV running on your system including mysql, xmltv, mythtv. As a bonus you get the magic of apt-get to install almost anything else you might want. The fontend program is very nicely done and it supports remote controls and external channel changers too.

-dameron

Re:Knoppmyth, yet again...

[rdt]

See http://mysettopbox.tv/ for the home site for KnoppMyth

Done it all...

[mythosaz]

Ok, I'm a couple hundred posts too late to get moderated to a level at which anyone will read this, but here goes. I had always been facinated by recording television and doing video capture. Way back in the day (ok, 7 years ago) I started with a Zoran chip composite capture card and broadcast my home game-playing table to the internet for people who'd watch me play Magic: the Gathering. (Yes, I'm a colossal geek...) Fast forward to the last couple of years. Being the last geek on my block without a dedicated PVR and with Microsoft pushing out Media Center, and with me being a MSDN+Select customer, I thought I'd try it out. You can easily skip the rest of this and just go to AVSFORUMS. They have a message board you can't possibly keep up with :) I purchased the Hauppauge PVR-250 (which, essentially is the 350 without radio), and gave it a try as a fulltime device behind one of the AV switches on my Pioneer (read: noisy) receivers. Media Center did just peachy. The interface is slicky and it just FEELS like a media center. But I was stuck with ASF files that took too much work to convert to a readable format for other people. So, I looked into Snapstream. Snapstream was, essentially, Media Center with the ability to record native DVD and SVCD formats, and the ability (recently) to overnight downsample to DiVX;) for archiving. But it wasn't quite right. So, I turned next to my cable company's integrated DVR solution. Cox peddles the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 for another $10 a month, and with it, I get two-tuners and a good, but worse feature set than either of the software packages. So, let me say this, if you NEED, and I don't just mean once to impress your mother upstairs out of the basement, to burn DVDs of your TV programs, or unless you NEED to archive lots of TV to DiVX;) or some other handy archive format, don't build yourself a PVR except as a hobby or to do it. Get a TiVo. Get a DirecTiVo. Get the Cox PVR. You'll get it for much cheaper than that $150+ capture card, the $100 hard drive, the $50 video card with good looking TV-out and the $100 motherboard and case. Oh, and that case -- don't expect to enjoy watching TV unless you've purchased SILENT parts for your PC. Zalman coolers and Panflow fans aren't cheap. You won't have to fuss with overscan or underscan from your video card on your too-old no-DVI input TV either. You'll have about 200 less wires in your living room too. You also don't have to wonder what channel your TiVo accidentally used the IR-remote to change your TV too. Did it get 10 or 100 today? /shrug. I hope I got 24 and not Maricopa County Educational Television... Anyway, if you're a geek, and I am, and you have to play with the video you catpure, go software, or at least choose an off-the-shelf PVR that lets you add a network card. If not, for the love of god, suck up $7 or $10 a month (cheaper still than buying PVR hardware) and get the benefits of dual-tuner capture and integrated CLEAN LOOKING -----SILENT----- hardware for your TV watching experience. And, for the love of god, unless you have a TV that doubles as a PC monitor, stop trying to watch TV on it. You're going to be disappointed. [This isn't to say that you can't ultra-geek it, build a nice home theater box, in an expensive case, using quiet parts, and connect it to your TV that's already suitable for DVI inputs and have a BETTER solution that includes DVD playing, MAME playing, etc. -- but the reality is that unless you're going into the DEEP END of the hobby -- that's right -- hobby, you're much better off with going to X-Mart and getting a TiVo, or just calling your cable company.]

Re:Done it all...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a tip. Use Paragraphs. Your rambings would be much more readable with proper/any spacing.

Re:Done it all...

[mythosaz]

This post burried as well, but... ...it was a preview problem. It was a "Plain Old Text" message submitted as HTML. /shrug

Cough!

[msimm]

Then you'll need to find some way to get program listings if you want to schedule recordings based on something besides just channel & date & time.

MythTV does this with XMLTV. It works great and you can search using the built-in scheduler and search time/date or..name.

Not that any software PVR is perfect, but don't write them off out of ignorance.

Re:Cough!

[earlytime]

I wasn't writing anything off. I was speaking from eperience. This guy said his main factor was the el-cheapo factor, and the bottom line is that you'll be hard pressed to get a cheaper tivo than tivo. And the monthly fee is optional...
Note I didn't say that you couldn't get program listings elsewhere, just that you'll have to find somewhere to get them. XMLTV is obviously one option.

Re:Cough!

[msimm]

The el cheapo route would be to use an older pc and install a PVR-350. Mythtv still comes with xmltv functionality built into it so your original point didn't apply. So for possibly the same about of money you could build an continuously upgradable pc (good for geeks, good future) or get a Tivo (good for geeks).

Snapstream and Adaptec VideOh USB 2.0

[shailu]

I am using Snapstream and Adaptec VideOh USB 2.0 .. Some cool features are - ability to schedule recording from the net if your computer is always connected to net. - downloads schedule form the net - compresses mpeg files at idle time - supports streaming - Very nice user interface

Comments about privacy, anybody?

[Dammital]

I'm not terribly familiar with TiVo, but I'm aware that they have the ability to report your viewing habits.
Don't like having the DVR and digital cable guys in my knickers, so... is this a good reason for going through the MythTV hassle?

Re: mini-ITX cases that support 2 drives?

[WuphonsReach]

Any leads on a mini-ITX case that supports (2) hard drives (for RAID1)? All the ones that I've seen so far only support (1) 5.25" external bay device (CD/DVD), (1) 3.5" external bay (floppy), and (1) internal 3.5" drive.

I'm interested in the mini-ITX stuff no so much for power reasons but for noise reasons.

Nice, Simple PVR

[neurojab]

I have a very simple PVR based on a Hauppage PVR-250 card, a few shell scripts, and CRON. MythTv and freevo were too much overhead for me. They're really based on the idea that it will be a dedicated box. Who's got the space and money for that?

Here's what I like about my system

1) No GUI. I can log in via SSH and change my crontab anytime I want
2) CPU Usage. I don't notice when my machine is recording. This is because the PVR-250 has hardware MPEG2 encoding.
3) Because of #2, I can use the machine for other tasks without worrying about screwing up my recordings.
4) It has amazingly good A/V quality
5) I can buy a DVD burner and burn my recordings directly to DVD

The "Wife Factor"

[jbarr]

No doubt the techno-geek-hobbyist in us all longs for a custom, home-grown PVR, but the reason I haven't gone the "roll-your-own" route yet is simple: The "Wife Factor". Plain and simple, the absolute LAST thing I need to deal with is my wife trying to get a less-than-100%-stable system to work.

[Obligatory_ReplayTV_comment]Our ReplayTV systems have been very stable and reliable. They are basically "appliances" that simply work. No muss, no fuss. And the wife is very happy with them.[/Obligatory_ReplayTV_comment]

Trust me, after you've heard the line "So, how do I turn on the TV?" coming from a very pissed-off wife, you won't regret your buying decision...

Re:The "Wife Factor"

[Anonymous Coward]

I have Snapstream, and the wife loves it. It's very easy to use, and it's piped into one of the video inputs on the TV - no muss, no fuss.

Tivo is DOOMED!!!!!!!

[willtsmith]

Tivo is effectively a hardware financing company. They sell discounted special purpose boxes and sell a "service" (free information) so that the hardware can work.

The hardware costs will eventually drop to the point where no one needs Tivo to finance their purchase. At that point, boxes can simply use free XML encoded program listings from a myriad of sources. At this point, there is no need to pay any fees to Tivo for ANYTHING!!!!!

The DVD/Hard Drive crowd are already starting to muscle into the market. Hauppauge and ATI already offer PC based alternatives that DON'T charge for the program guides (because the info is VERY lightweight). Also notable is that these alternatives don't need the Tivo logo as much as generic tissue manufacturers need a Kleenex logo.

Enter the cable companies who are now renting set top boxes from Motorola. Tivo doesn't provide advanced technology, they provide financing. When all is said and done, they will be completely unnecessary.

Features Features Features

[mace_15]

The features of a home-brewed PVR far exceeds those of a Tivo unit. For example, Freevo in addition to watching TV, allows users to view digital photos, play music (MP3, OGG, FLAC, etc), play emulated games, and watch mpeg and non-mpeg movies like (Quicktime, Divx, Window Media, etc.) While Freevo doesn't do all of this itself, it combines all of these features in one package and serves as a seamless frontend.

1 year..

[msimm]

no trouble in North America with MythTV (xmltv). I did have to upgrade it a couple of times..

urpmi xmltv

Not much trouble and the flipside is I've got a full featured PC plugged into my HDTV (sure was nice watching those Quicktime Matrix previews on a big screen).

Is there a "MythTV distro"?

[swb]

I'd love to see a MythTV distro that would give me some *nix and MythTV all conveniently pre-installed and requiring a minimum of BSing around.

I just don't have the time to waste with installation, X Windows (which I hate), and so on. An appliance-style distro would be great, and I'd even pay for it.

Someone once told me this was impossible due to the hardware, but how much harder is it to select a capture card in a setup screen than a SCSI card?

Re:Is there a "MythTV distro"?

[jdray]

How about KnoppMyth?

Got a Mac? Go EyeTV

[Spencerian]

A very popular (and apparently only) PVR for Mac OS X users is EyeTV. This true PVR connects to a powered USB port. Connect your TV or VCR from the cable or RCA phono inputs and go. You get delayed Live TV, the ability to record any show within the standard 2-125 non-digital world, where it can be saved indefinitely, or burned as a QuickTime movie, VCD, or DVD, and it's inexpensive. ($200). They just announced new versions that accept the DV3 over-the-air digital standard (no idea how that works) and use FireWire for better performance.

Not PC compatible, sorry. However, someone with a bit of ingenuity in Linux could probably adapt code for it--OS X works as a BSD, for all intents and purposes.

Alternatively, products from Eskape Labs (a subsidary of Hauppauge) make some other devices that can record like their PC counterparts, but not in a true PVR method.

Um..

[msimm]

I'd support an open project that left most of the control in my hands, but I understand Tivo nixed the commercial skip. Does Tivo have user developed plugins or any additional features being added by the community?

Re:Um..

[Quixotic137]

TiVo hasn't "nixed" anything. If you're referring to the 30-second jump feature, it's still there but you have to enable it, since they're using the button for a different feature now. 30-second skip isn't as great as you might think anyway, compared to the type of fast forward that TiVo uses.

There are many user-developed applications for TiVo, including caller ID displays, internet tools (ftp, ping, etc.), a webserver for remote programming, tools to extract videos, etc. Take a look at the TiVo Community Forum for starters. Notwithstanding the story about cease-and-desist orders for images of the drive, TiVo has been about the most open and tolerant of all the media-related company in business today.

Re:Um..

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo hasn't "nixed" anything.

Do any of these add-ons work on the current Series 2 TiVos or just on the old Series 1 that TiVo no longer sells?

The Series 2 code signing / DRM effectively nixed most mods...

The real question is...

[MikeCapone]

...is there anything on TV worth watching?

Buy a ReplayTV 5040, save time/money/headache

[skintigh2]

I thought about spending $600 to build a mythtv box and then $10-$15 a month in electricity to run it, but decided a ReplayTV would be cheaper ($200 + $10 a month), easier for my wife to use, and would do most of what I wanted.

I chose replay over Tivo because it was much ($100 or so + $5 a month) cheaper for the ReplayTV with ehternet and sharing and picture viewing and all that, plus it has auto-commericial-skip (beware: the 55xx series does not). I wish it had the thumbs up/down thing, but nothing is perfect.

Now, if mp3 and video game emulation are must-haves, then build the MythTV box. Tivo also supports mp3, but you have to spend $100 + $5 a month or something for their permission to listen to your music.

Re:Buy a ReplayTV 5040, save time/money/headache

[mookoz]

Getting tired of seeing Replay get passed up in these threads. Extraction and internet capability exist out of the box.

Re:Buy a ReplayTV 5040, save time/money/headache

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting tired of seeing Replay get passed up in these threads. Extraction and internet capability exist out of the box.

Sorry, but ReplayTV sucks. It is better than a home built DVR, but compared to TiVo it still sucks. I have a ReplayTV and three TiVos; I hardly use the Replay. I consider it to be the idiot child of my DVR family. It is the backup to my tertiary TiVo backup.

Sure, you have show sharing (far too slow over the Internet to really be useful) and commercial elimination (when it works; I don't trust it) but not on the newer Replay models. As for internet, any Series 2 TiVo can hook in with a USB Ethernet adapter. I would have liked TiVo to have had a builtin Ethernet port, but the USB adapter works fine.

When it comes to the really important stuff - time shifting, finding shows and making sure they are recorded - TiVo blows Replay out of the water. Replay's interface looks like it was designed by engineers (note: this is NOT a compliment) and the manner in which one goes about requesting shows for recording and making sure they actually WILL be recorded is retarded in the extreme.

Replay has nothing remotely comparable to TiVo's Season Passes, Season Pass Manager, Wishlists, To Do List, History list, Now Playing list, and even Replay's search functionality leaves a lot to be desired compared to TiVo's way of searching.

There's a reason Replay has gone through three sets of owners in three years, and there is a reason that it is a distant also-ran to TiVo. Replay spent more time hacking on "gee wiz features" to an unstable code base, and not nearly enough time thinking about what it is that makes for real useability for ordinary TV time shifters.

Re:Buy a ReplayTV 5040, save time/money/headache

[Anonymous Coward]

I chose replay over Tivo because it was much ($100 or so + $5 a month) cheaper for the ReplayTV with ehternet and sharing and picture viewing and all that, plus it has auto-commericial-skip (beware: the 55xx series does not). I wish it had the thumbs up/down thing, but nothing is perfect.

If you had a chance to actually use a TiVo for a few months, you would realize that you got ripped off. You gets whats you pays for. Penny wise is pound foolish.

Besides, the $5 is for DirecTV TiVos ($5 monthly fee is waived if you get the largest DirecTV package); the DirecTV units are cheaper ($99). Actual prices for hardware (excluding the DirecTV Tivos which are cheaper) are about the same for TiVo and Replay; monthly fees for TiVo are a few dollars more, but you should get lifetime, as it pays for itself in the long run. For your inferior Replay functionality, you "saved" maybe $50 or $100 over getting an equivalent TiVo.

Now, if mp3 and video game emulation are must-haves, then build the MythTV box. Tivo also supports mp3, but you have to spend $100 + $5 a month or something for their permission to listen to your music.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. TiVo's HMO is a one-time free of $99. You don't pay $5 a month because you can't get HMO on DirecTV boxes with TiVo, only with standalone TiVos.

Besides, I am shocked, yes, shocked, that TiVo would ask you to PAY for software that TiVo developed. Nope. TiVo should just give it away for fear that some anonymous web monkey such as yourself would accuse them of forcing people to ask permission to listen to their own music!

Newsflash: you are either going to pay TiVo for HMO, or you are going to pay someone else for similar funcionality. You think you are going to build that MythTV box for free? Why don't you demand a free MythTV box while you are at it? You wanted TiVo to give you HMO for free, too, didn't you?

I have a ReplayTV 5040; it blows chunks compared to my TiVos (see comment below). Replay is better than a blow to the head, or a home built MythTV box, but it ain't a TiVo.

Re:Buy a ReplayTV 5040, save time/money/headache

[Noksagt]

I'm also a Replay fan. I got the 5040 with lifetime subscription for $281. If anyone shows me a sub-$300 PC that can do what it can do, I'd be impressed. FWIW, I DO have a HTPC, but I didn't get it for the cost.

Re:Buy a ReplayTV 5040, save time/money/headache

[skintigh2]

I see you totally misunderstood my point, completely missed the part where I said MythTV was MORE expensive, and YOU called ME foolish.

I like that.

Then you called me an anonymous web monkey, when you are posting as anonymous.

Stupid AND hypocritcal. You win!!!

But I'll answer your childish post anyway, angry tivo guy.

The $5 extra a month is EXTRA. However, I admit Iseem to be wrong ant it's only $3 more that Tivo costs ($!3 instead of $10 that I pay)

If you want to use your Tivo on a network, you have to pay $100 for the software (free on ReplayTV). If you have an older Tivo you also need to buy a net card (free on Replay).

So, you have now spent $400+ for a box that still has less features than the box I bought for $209, and the monthly fee is higher.

And Tivo is so great, why?

Commercial Zapping?

[orn]

Have any of the boxes really done well with commercial zapping? I really want a system that recognizes commercials and then just doesn't record them. I'd settle for a system that recognizes commercials and skips past them automatically.

Is there anything that does this? And does it well?

BTW, I know the whole philosophical problem of who pays for content if you're skipping the commercials and, tell you what, save it for Eisner.

Re:Commercial Zapping?

[Loosewire]

i would like a pvr which recorded the ad's seperatly and let you keep the ones you like (come on - everyone has adverts they love to see :-)

Two stations at once?

[Trejkaz]

Now just to get around the limitation of cable boxes to only display one station at a time. :-(

Re:Two stations at once?

[cayenne8]

Well, the way I got around it, was to get rid of the damned box, and just run cable out of the wall. I didn't watch much HBO or other pay stations, 'cause I don't watch movies that aren't in widescreen...so, I rent those..and for all other tv, regular cable has all the channels I need.

However, if you do have to have a box...I think you can rig up one of those 'IR Blaster' setups..that point the ir lights at your box...and the computer changes the box's channels that way.

Re:Two stations at once?

[Trejkaz]

That's the thing. Where we are, the cable box decodes the signal. Without the cable box, you get five channels, all of which suck.

I've heard stories of people connecting various devices to the cable line to get around the single channel limitation (and theoretically also the 'need to pay' limitation, though there is a crackdown on that right now.)

Re:Two stations at once?

[gatekeep]

What I do on my Sage setup is split the cable before the box. One feed goes through the box and on to a PVR-250 controlled by sage. There's an IR emitter (which sage also controls) to change channels on the box.

The second cable out of the splitter goes straight to another PVR-250. Sage then uses this cards internal tuner to tune any analog channel. In my area, I get basic cable analog even on a digital subscription. Nothing illegal here, unless a cable splitted is considered illegal.

Re:Two stations at once?

[Trejkaz]

Splitting the cable itself would be perfectly fine. The problem with shitty OptusVision and Foxtel is that none of the channels going over the cable (not even the free to air ones!) are viewable without a decoder box. That pretty much reduces the options back to: (a) a TV aerial straight into the computer; (b) deal with the single channel (which defeats some of the purpose of recording shows in the first place, which is to resolve conflicts in programming); (c) buy a second decoder box at $30/month. Sucks. :-/

Re:Two stations at once?

[gatekeep]

Yah, that pretty much sucks. You could run an aerial antenna to a second encoder to resolve conflicts on the major networks though.. but that's a pretty crappy solution.

Even with two boxes, controlling them independantly with IR would be tough. You'd need to build tents and stuff so that the IR signals intended for one aren't picked up by the other. Of course, if the boxes have unique IR codes or can be configured in that manner it wouldn't be an issue, but it seems unlikely given that they're already screwing you over.

SFF Solution

[Giggles Of Doom]

Today's small form factor PCs, like the Shuttle XPC series, make really nice HTPC/PVR boxes. Thankfully, you don't need a state of the art P4 to encode TV. You could get a box that supports a 533Mhz FSB Socket 478, for example, for about $150. You could probably get away with a 2.4Ghz Celeron, which would run you about $70. Not a rock bottom priced system, but adding in a nice HD, some RAM, and a TV tuner will probably still bring you under the price of most retail PVRs. The Small Form Factor Comparison Matrix has a nice listing of almost all the SFF barebones units listed by CPU type and price, along with all the features they support.

Re:Sage TV

[Neop2Lemus]

Curosity killed the cat once for me, no wait, a second time too, but that one was innocently labelled and I'd seen it before anyways.

But not this time....

Very Happy with MythTV

[bmeehan]

I started looking into a replacement PVR solution when my DishNetwork sub ran up. My wife and I were hooked on the Dish501 PVR and hadn't watched TV bound to a schedule in more than a year. Our local cable provider (TW-Rochester) gave us a great deal on all the digital offerings with HBO @ 25.99 /mo for 12 months. Sounded like a good idea. I went on board with their PVR "solution", the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000.

Has anyone else used one of these clearly beta units? Ack!

That lasted about 3 weeks. So I sat down and looked at our needs and our options:

- Two tuners (the only nice feature of the SA8000)
- Intelligent recording options (record once/series/all)
- Sufficient storage (enough to fit the entire Tour De France: 20 stages x 3hrs. That was our unit of measurement. YMMV)
- Ability to record network channels (NBC/ABC/CBS/Fox)
- HighDef is a nice-to-have

Options:
- DirectTV with DirectTivo (No Rochester locals then) (~$550 for Series2 unit with big HD)
- DishNetwork with the Dish921 (High Def! Have to lie to get Plattsburgh locals) ($1000+)
- DishNetwork with the Dish721 (Have to lie to get Plattsburgh locals) ($500)
- Time Warner with SA8000 (Ack!) ($5 + $9 rental/mo)
- DIY box (???)

Wife gave the project a green light, and I bought the parts to build it. Motherboard with integrated LAN and VGA, $100; AthlonXP 1800+, $50; PVR250 Tuner cards, $130 x2; Wireless mouse & keyboard, $40. I already had a case and 120Gb drive.

It took a bit of work and a weekend to get it running the first time (Myth 0.11). Thanks so much to Jarod's guide. I tweaked it and broke some stuff about 3 weeks later, and rebuilt it. Only took 8 hrs that time.

Tweaked stuff again and broke it again. I should realize that it's a TV device, not a playtoy. This time I rebuilt it in 3 hrs. (That included restoring a backup of the programs saved on the HD.) ATRPMS with apt-get (thanks Axel) makes it a breeze.

It's been fine for the last month. It sits quietly mounted between floor joists in the basement crawlspace storage, where it is keep quite cool. As a bonus over Tivo, it has a picture gallery viewer of all the PCs in our house, it runs MAME and ZSnes, plays MP3s and shows the weather.

Thanks Issac and all the developers who put so much hardwork into a great project. Your efforts are very appreciated.

By the way: The best part about this being an open source, Linux based project? When there's a problem with the app and I'm not at home, I can ssh to it and fix it remotely. No more trying to explain things over the phone!

Toshiba SD-H400 DVD/CD player + 80GB TiVo(R) Serie

[roxy-skya]

The Toshiba SD-H400 unit has Tivo Basic service which is free. And can be found from PriceGrabber.com for as little as $397.50. Here's some details from Crutchfield:

It combines a full-featured progressive-scan DVD player and a TiVo Series2 hard disk recorder with 80-hour capacity! Toshiba has been a leader in DVD technology from the start, and the SD-H400 delivers superb DVD picture and sound. In fact, if you own an HD-capable TV, you can enjoy an ultra-clean progressive-scan signal through the component video output for both DVD and TiVo playback!

The SD-H400 is the first device to include built-in TiVo Basic(TM) Service -- now you can enjoy basic TiVo features right out of the box, with no subscription fees! TiVo Basic lets you pause, rewind, and create instant replays of live TV, and record shows by channel and time using the built-in 3-day electronic program guide. At any time, you can upgrade to full TiVo functionality (14-day program guide, Season Pass(TM) automated recording, Search by Title, WishList(TM), etc.) by subscribing to TiVo Plus(TM) Service.

But wait, there's more! In addition to full-featured DVD playback and upgradeable TiVo DVR capabilities, the SD-H400 is capable of incorporating TiVo's Home Media Option(TM) feature package, which opens the door to cool networked home A/V entertainment possibilities. The Home Media Option is a software upgrade you can download from TiVo via a dial-up or broadband Internet connection. It turns the SD-H400 into a full-fledged digital media server that connects via USB port to your wired or wireless home network and PC. (A USB network adapter is required.) Purchasing the Home Media Option adds these features:

-streaming of MP3 files from a PC or Mac for playback through your TV or home A/V system

-the ability to view digital photos on your TV

-remote scheduling of recordings to the SD-H400 from any location with Internet access

-the ability to connect to another TiVo Series2 DVR elsewhere in your home for program-sharing between the two units

torrent

[Platypii]

ohhhhh, nice, can you post a torrent for that??

PSX will beat all

[Anonymous Coward]

just save up the $700 and buy a PSX when it is released Dec 2003 in Japan.

you get a ps2 + dvd burner + hard disk + video recorder all in one with tested software/hardware

Snapstream

[slaker]

I use Snapstream PVS for my media center needs.

My HTPC is an Athlon 2800, 1GB of RAM, an all-in-wonder 9600 Pro and a 3ware Escalade 7506-12 with 12 200GB Maxtor drives (two RAID10s of 600GB each) and 2 160GB Samsungs. It's in a 4U rackmount case with a 550 Watt PC Power and Cooling PSU. I use an Asus A7N8X Deluxe for a motherboard, with its support for Dolby Digital 5.1 on digital outputs. The PC is connected to an Integra DTR-8.2 receiver (that's its name, not how many speakers it supports) which itself can be controlled with its own radio frequency remote, and whose video switching and AV zone support I make full use of.

The whole thing is sitting in 19" rack in a closet, so I don't have to listen to it be all noisy.

It runs 2000 Server, mostly because, at the start of its life, I was working with 2000's soft-RAID features, and "Pro" versions of Windows don't do redundant RAID.

I use Snapstream PVS for TV-watching and recording, primarily because it integrates nicely with my ATI RF remote, and because it supports tuning my DirectTV receiver via a serial connection.

The PROBLEM with Snapstream is that it's not the paragon of stability that it should be. Every few days it flies off the deep end and takes my poor HTPC with it. I have a 35-hour DirectTivo for a back up and second video source, just in case. :)

I also have three 400-disc DVD carousels of varying ages that I use to house my collection of movies. The DVPCX985V is the newest of those, and the one I appreciate the most, since it support SACDs. The 3 jukeboxes are connected to each other and operate as a single logical unit.

Regular daily viewing is done on a 32" 16x9 Princeton display. It can handle HDTV signals but I haven't coughed up the cash for DirectTV HDTV reception or a video capture solution that works with HDTV. I also have an ancient, 800lumen, 800x600 Sony projector that I plan to replace when its bulb dies, probably with an NEC HT1000 (3000:1 contrast ratio).

Hrrmmmm?

[msimm]

Then there's the noise factor. Tivos are whisper quiet... To make a PC that quiet wou can easily add another $100 onto the base price. I use a Zalman cooler, even satisfied the girlfriend.

Re:Hrrmmmm?

[shepmaster]

I use a Zalman cooler, even satisfied the girlfriend.

Ah, so many possible fun jokes...

Mpeg-2 to Mpeg-4 ?

[KaiserZoze_860]

I have my hardware pretty much straightened out. I am currently using 9-10 gigs of space for cartoon network rips I'd like to hang onto to watch again later.

What would you recommend for converting the MPeg 2 compressed video files into smaller mpeg4?

-KS--

Surely you're joking

[fendel]

I had a Via Epia "800mhz" that I intended to use as a low-end media center. It couldn't even smoothly decode DivX files, much less encode stuff like a PVR would. It was worthless.

Re:sure just buy a tivo if all you want is a PVR..

[Anonymous Coward]

The first four episodes of Kyuuketsuki Miyu (Vampire Princess Miyu) were wonderfully atmospheric. It's only after those that they gave her a fuzzy pet and her own Scooby Gang.

Try Mandrake..

[msimm]

With urpmi and Easy Urpmi and Thac's configured properly (follow instructions). You can install it in a few minute, with no compiling.

urpmi mythtv

Thats xmltv and everything.

Re:Try Mandrake..

[MicroBerto]

Some package requested cannot be installed:

mythtv-0.12-3thac.i586 (due to unsatisfied liblame0) (Y/n)

It didn't work for me!

Re:Try Mandrake..

[MicroBerto]

oops, i think liblame0 needs PLF source installed

Re:Try Mandrake..

[Ryan Amos]

And this whole exchange is a perfect example of why people buy TiVOs.

Re:Try Mandrake..

[MicroBerto]

I'm in college, I like to learn and play, and plus, i JUST got out of my last exam, so i have a couple of hours to waste before I start drinking at noon!

Resolution issues? D-A-D-A Signal degradation?

[neonfrog]

Anyone with experience want to comment on the picture/sound quality of:

* Direct recording the bitstream with a DirecTiVo or DishPVR and playing back (basically digital to analog once from the satellite to the inputs of your home theater system)

- vs -

* A home brew PVR that has to go through an additional generation (digital to analog to digital to analog) before it gets to your home theater system

That is a concern I have but I've not seen any information on it. Any helpful links out there?

Alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

First, this is NOT an advertisment! So no flames, please.
If you really want to build your own PVR (similar to TIVO), go ahead. If you want something more than TIVO offers, without having to actually build the thing, read on. For all the extra features beyond what TIVO provides, check out Interact TV(http://www.interact-tv.com/). Their "Telly" series has everything that everybody says they want, on an open platform. You can change/add drives, update the software, etc.

Maybe I spoke hastily

[fendel]

I had one of the old Epias without built-in MPEG support... and I just noticed comments about using a card with hardware support for this stuff... So maybe it's possible. (sigh) Never mind.

Myth, Freevo cool, but what about WAF?

[Alton_Brown]

We have a DirectTivo (Series2) currently that we LOVE. Only downside is that we can't get the home media option without hacking. I'd like to move to a DIY model for the extra flexability, but the big missing thing seems to be a remote control! In terms of WAF (wife acceptance factor) and even for my own acceptance I want to use a remote - not a mouse or a keyboard. Is there a solution for this? Thanks!

Re:Sage TV

[senor_burt]

Aigh!
I wouldn't have clicked the link if you hadn't mentioned it... now I want eyeball soap!

I think it's like the whole "Man, that tastes awful, wanna try some?" school of thought...

Since you're such a "serious time shifter"...

[caferace]

...would you beam your ass to 2020 and bring us back a boatload 500 Terabyte HDD?

Much appreciated.

Re:Since you're such a "serious time shifter"...

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry sir, they don't make those old small ones anymore. How about a few googlebyte drives? Oh and you'll need the quantum interface unit? That'll be $50.

And I'm at WORK!

[spoco2]

Dear god! I unsuspectingly clicked on that link too, expecting some funny thing about google... but jeeeeesus! I've never closed a window faster in my life (computer based window, I'm sure I've been pretty fast on the house window closing in the past)... god that's wrong.

Re:And I'm at WORK!

[microbob]

Then get to work and quit farking around on slashdot :>)

M.B. - working from home

speaking of multiple frontends... a question

[snooo53]

I'm curious, I've always been drawn to the do-it-yourself PVR projects because there weren't any restrictions on how to use the stuff you record, and the ability to back up shows onto CD.

That being said, I'm curious if any of the commercial PVR solutions have the same lack of restrictions? Are there any tivo-like PVRs that allow you to save shows to a network drive in mpeg or some other standard format out of the box, or do they require a hack? Which ones can be hacked

Re:Sage TV

[Eccles]

Sage apparently doesn't have closed-captioning support, which is a deal-breaker for me. On the other hand, a HTPC that replaced the standard CC display with a less intrusive outline font (possibly with partial transparency) would be a serious bonus.

ROFL!

[msimm]

I didn't even see that one.

snapstream

[emg178]

runs on windows. records on pvr250 and 350 boards using hardware encoding. decodes on allinwonder w/ hardware as well. the epg data is provided and is free. the ability to customize recording preferences is awesome. it is easy as heck to set up. you can use the computer for other things as well. the just get a tivo idea is fine, but I also use the thing for scanning, storing, and serving digital pictures, listening to music, burning cds, mp3 discs and dvds, browse the web, etc.
Also, although the original mp2 stream would be better, the board does a really good job of encoding from my cable feed.

What Video Card for Analog Cable?

[billstewart]

What kind of video card should I use for PVR for analog cable service? Most of the discussion here seems to be about DirecTV and Digital Cable, but I still get my television the old-fashioned way....

Re:What Video Card for Analog Cable?

[sn0wcrash]

Geforce4 MX or better for TV out and Hauppauge PVR-250/350 seems to yeild best results with the best support. The tuner card will work fine with your direct cable and has an onboard MPEG-2 encoder. Nice and clean, low CPU usage to record.

That is EXTREMELY sick, but...

[Hell O'World]

I have to admit that was a clever way to avoid the Slashdot link marking. We'll all have to be more careful now.

I have a MythTV box

[Dalroth]

I have a MythTV box so I speak from experience.

You *SHOULD* build a MythTV box IF:

- You are an experienced Linux user, have some extra hardware lying around (or money is no object), and are looking for a fun and interesting project to mess around with.

- You are an inexperienced Linux user, have some extra hardware lying around (or money is no object), and are looking for a fun and interesting project to learn Linux with.

- You are not one of the above, but absolutely must have the single best Multimedia Convergence box you can possibly have at all costs.

You should *NOT* build a MythTV box IF:

- You are an inexperienced Linux, user and have no money and no hardware lying around.

- You have no interest in learning Linux.

- You are an experienced Linux user, have no money and no extra hardware lying around.

- You want something that works now, not something that is sorta great now, but will be absolutely great later.

This exactly what I've been telling my friends when they get jealous of my MythTV box. I suspect in about a year or so, building a MythTV box will be a LOT simpler. Until then, follow my guideline above.

Bryan

Re:Sage TV

[xcomputer_man]

It is not available for Linux. :(

But it certainly is pretty cool, nonetheless. For me, TVTime for watching live TV (kicks xawtv's butt to the curb!), and mencoder + atd/crond for recording. I can't automatically skip commercials, but at least I can cram 2.5 hours of TV into less than 800MB with reasonably good quality to boot!

Did I mention how much TVTime rocks?

Look on the bright side

[Cajun Hell]

At least the pubes are blurred out, in order to prevent the image from being obscene.

Of course...

[msimm]

the one pc it wouldn't dectect hardware on was the MythTV box in the living room!

Macintosh version.

[saintlupus]

I've got an old Beige G3 Macintosh tower machine hooked into my television setup right now. It's got component video and audio inputs and outputs -- apparently there was a build-to-order option for these when they were intended to be used in video production and the like.

Currently, it's running a whole pile of emulators and I'm using it to play old NES games and such on my TV.

This winter, though, I'm hoping to tie together the inputs and recording software with some Applescript and make a Po' Man's Tivo out of it. Hey, why not. It's sitting there already.

Just thought I'd throw in another hardware platform.

--saint

Question

[Anonymous Coward]

If the channels aren't indexed do any of the capture cards (and software) support scanning channels and looking at the programming information which many stations now carry? For example my VCR displays the name of the program, the length, and the rating when switching channels.

Re:Question

[msimm]

Channels are indexed with the help of xmltv. Mythtv then indexes programs as well, so you can look up "The Shield" by going to "S" and scrolling throught to "Shield, The". If your more old fashioned (or not sure whats on) you can use the program guide and see whats on tv. If your already watching tv and would like to know whats on the current channel (say during commercials) you can bring up program info on the current channel. It will certainly beat the VCR.

Homegrown vs. TiVo

[trailerparkcassanova]

Tivo is fine except for exporting the stuff to other devices. Currently I'm using a Adaptec VideOh USB 2.0 which does HW MPEG-2 encoding along with Snapstream. All of this is on a W2k box but the video is stored on a FreeBSD box. Along with this I have Gateway Connected DVD players that can access the recorded video and audio stored on the FreeBSD box. There are also some Rio Receivers spread around for audio only. The only other thing I would like is to be able to operate the recording/scheduling remotely. If only the Connected DVDs had some kind of simple web browser.

Re:Sage TV

[BrynM]

Indeed. It looks like there's real competition to the Goat-Ass now. This is one challenge that I hope to never spectate again, but this is slashdot where our motto is: "if we can't put our heads in our own asses, we'll trick you into looking at some nasty pictures of other asses". To the parent post: Google is not evil. You sir, are evil and that woman is not at all healthy. *shiver*

MythWeb

[forevermore]

MythTV has something that I haven't seen from any of the commercial players: MythWeb. Fully configuratble recording/list browsing/etc in a nice web interface (don't trust the screenshots on the MythTV website - they're old and out of date, and I haven't had time to make any of the new version). My MythTV box is rarely used for actually watching TV these days. I set up what I want to record via MythWeb, and archive shows to SVCD to be watched later on my dvd player.

Get a Mini-ITX system and Freepia

[cyrus007]

Get a EPIA-M/nehemiah based VIA Mini-ITX system and run Freepia to get TiVo like functionality. It works great and you can also run a LiveCD version to get a taste of the system ;-) If you like it then you can install it. Discuss about it at http://freepia.shaibn.com

Re: mini-ITX cases that support 2 drives?

[Anonymous Coward]

So don't put a floppy in there.

Re:I'd just buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

have you tried Freevo? I have been thinking about building one of their boxes. How does it compare to MythTV?

Get a Replay

[Scyber]

Skip Commercials (sure they removed the automatic skip, but now it is merely one button press to skip a commercial block), Download to your PC (using DVArchive) and re-encode to your desired video format.

OSS is not about "being sold/handed a solution"

[janbjurstrom]

Trolling AC, I must reply.

You are missing, totally, a very important aspect of this "support" for OSS. It's too big - and off-topic, admittedly - a discussion, but nevertheless:

It's about the *process* and *culture* of open source.

I'm quite new to open source (and to /.), but this was the first thing I realized as being fundamentally different (from proprietary IT). How could anyone miss that, and here of all places?!

It's the *process* to learn without restrictions (lack of source, copyrights, NDAs, "biz strategy", &c.), to create while learning, to share your learnings and teach it (see sourceforge, here on /., and a million other places). And to question and tinker with the *process* itself (the open source development model).

Essentially, I don't "want" any part of this *process* just handed (free or $29.95) to me. So fucking what if a company use Linux/OSS if it's just a plug-in component in a biz-as-usual ecology? Then it's just stuff, and has nothing to do with "supporting open source".

Some companies (not saying Tivo's one, I don't know enough about them) just use OSS to save cash and/or TTM, and close their own solutions - i.e. not participating in the *process*, not sharing.

If you can't take part in the *process* - the evolution - of an "innovative" product/solution, then all you have is 'just another thing' (like Windows, or a Volvo). Not necessarily bad in-and-of-itself, but certainly not related to either open source or "Linux-ness".

Open source is a (collaborative) verb.

As for expansion...

[ivanmarsh]

If your PVR is PC based putting a second or bigger hard drive in it is the least of the expansion you can do.

If Tivo supported firewire devices and ethernet THEN it would have expansion capabilities.

Same but different.

[DJTodd242]

I realised that my collection of CDRs with TV burned on them was getting WAY out of control. Having leeched from usenet for 3+ years, I was getting well over 300 discs.

So I put together a PC with a few 80G drives and my old All In Wonder Radeon 7500. I also have the remote wonder that came with it. I'm thinking of grabbing a wireless keyboard and mouse so I can IRC at the same time. :)

While I don't use it to record TV, it's certainly drawn me back to watching some of these old shows I have.

For the record, I have a metric buttload of bought DVDs. I'm the poster boy for "Try before you buy" ... If I had a dime for every Jaguar I've bought for BBC executives...

Slashdot readers misread question: film at 11!

[Anonymous Coward]

He asked how to build a lowcost box, and lots of you monkeys are talking about a highend box. Hello! McFly!!

And even more monkey's talk about it is cheaper to buy a Tivo than build a box from scratch. I don't know what kind of monkey's you are, but this monkey has tons of hardware sitting around, I don't build much from scratch.

Almost as bad is the assumption that no one is going to get a deal on any parts. RAM for $29? How about RAM for $5 after rebates?

And then there are those who build up strawmonkey arguments like "DirecTivo with...". What if the OP doesn't have or want DirecTV?

Finally, what the hell are you watching TV so much for anyway? The only person I know with a Tivo can't get a date to save his life...oh...never mind.

Lots of work

[amigabill]

I've been working on putting such a thing together for a while now, over a year. And I've gone through a few iterations of machine trying to get what I want happening to happen.

I started with a Radeon AllInWonder 8500DV and Windows98SE. The machine, granted, was a bit slow as a 450MHz K6-2+, 256MB memory, Via chipset and Soundblaster Live 5.1 card. Well, trouble ensued, rumors of Via chipsets not liking SBLive cards and SBLive cards not liking Radeon cards flew, recording seemed reasonable with only a few % frames dropped, but playback was very odd. After a few minutes playback, the audio and video were slightly out of synch, making any show resemble an old chinese kung fu movie dubbed to english audio, and the variance grew as time went on during playback. Not acceptable.

Got a faster CPU, using a 550MHz K6-2, same problems. Changed motherboards, Athlon XP 1700+ with Via chipset (hadn't realized this might have been a problem yet) with 512MB memory now, and same thing. I dodn't see any frames dropped during record anymore, but playback couldn't keep audio and video in synch, still using the ATI Multimedia Center stuff that came with the card.

OK, now I start trying to get smart, swap the motherboard for one with SIS chipset which was said to not have the Via problems, same CPU, and a Santa Cruz sound card. SAME FREAKIN PROBLEM!! Audio and video wouldn't stay synched. Then I upgraded from Win98SE to Win2000, but no help. Then I got an Audigy2 card, hoping it was somehow the audio card and/or drivers at fault, but again no help. I had both an AIW 8500DV and AIW 7500 at this point as well, no combination would make things good.

So, what to do, I'm on my third PC for this project... So I Start looking for other software to try, and ended up buying showshifter for Windows. That had zero audio/video synch problems, it was great! Same hardware, playback problems vanished! But all was not perfect, the system kept hanging solid, requiring a reset button to get things rebooted and running again. Why did Win200 allow anything to hang the machine? Was Showshifter at fault? Something else? I had no idea, but it was unacceptable.

Time to try Linux.

So, I had my hardware already configured, I just wanted to change the OS and find some Linux PVR software, and mythtv sounded cool. But guess what! Can't use an ATI AllInWonder Radeon card, apparently the Gatos driver that claims to be Video4Linux compatible is said to not work with myth, and can't work with myth. Great. I just left the whole thing sit for a few months hoping drivers would get sorted out, to no avail.

Lesson learned: When wanting to use Linux, figure out what software you want to use FIRST. Then find out what Linux distributions have easy support for that software and get one of those distributions of the OS. Then figure out what hardware is supported, and buy suitable hardware.

I now have the Athlon XP 1700+, 512MB RAM, Santa Cruz (couldn't get Audigy 2 working in Linux even with the supposed support in the CVS emu10k1 driver), WinTV PVR-250 card, along with the giant hard drives and such. I tried using the Radeon just as a display but couldn't get the Radeon drivers working right in Linux, so changed that to an Nvidia GF 5200 something or other card, as I've heard great things about Nvidia supporting Linux.

Hardware all seemed to work as well as it ever has under Windows 2000, and now I'm on to installing Linux. I'm trying Gentoo this time. I tried Red Hat and Debian in the past. Red Hat installed easy, but at the time didn't have any RPMs for MythTV, though I understand it does now, too bad it's been abandoned by its developers. Debian - well, I never did get ATI drivers working with it, didn't want to be stuck with the generic VESA drivers, and gave up a while back before I got the Nvidia card. Now I'm on to Gentoo, mostly because some guys at work like it and know it, so I have someone to give me help, and there's a MythTV package for it.

Still don't have Linux running, still haven't got to where I can install Myth, wish me luck...

Re:Lots of work

[sn0wcrash]

If you only want the box for MythTV then give Knoppmyth a try.

Re:Sage TV

[FurryFeet]

Actually, yor sig only proves that YOU are EVIL.
Wonder what would happen if she and goatse man bred... whatever it was, it would probably have a singularity around its lower back.

I recently Tried with Windows

[aliens]

I decided to turn my linux server/router/love box into a windows XP media center after seeing a great deal on an ATI 9000 Pro AIW(Not workable under linux).

In the end I returned the card and went back to the server box. The more I played with it the more I found myself really having to sink more money into the project. (Quieter fans, better CPU, etc)

If you're going to do this, don't expect to do it "the right way" on the cheap. Save and build a seperate PC exclusively as a HTPC rather than using bits and peices. Bits and pieces are for trying new distros on. :)

I've become lazy in my dotage.

[Shugart]

I no longer enjoy putting together a PC. I certainly have no interest in building my own PC based DVR. I just don't have the patience anymore for the inevitable problems. I am a programmer and would just rather forget about computers for the most part when I'm not working. I put together my current PC. A dual AthlonMP 1600+ running Windows XP. I may never do that again. Perhaps when I retire.

I'm on my 3rd TIVO currently. The first 2 died after over a year of use. I purchased a new TIVO each time and payed for a lifetime subscription to the service since TIVO will not transfer the subscription to a new TIVO. Now my current TIVO's modem is dead. I switched to using my LAN and cable modem to connect to the TIVO service and that worked for a while until I moved. Then I had to go through the setup. It seems you have to have the modem working to finish the TIVO setup. Therefore, I'm in a catch 22. I cannot use the TIVO until I finish the setup. I cannot finish the setup without the modem working. The modem is integrated on the motherboard so I cannot replace it without replacing the motherboard.

I could buy another TIVO and the subscription but after three bad TIVOs I'm not inclined to do so. I could send it back to the manufacturer.

Perhaps I should just build my own. At least I could replace parts as needed when they go bad. I've avoided using Linux up to this point since it isn't necessary for my work. The question is, is it worth it? Should I just forget about owning a DVR? I really like selecting shows to record and letting the TIVO figure out the times the show is on and automatically recording for me. How about my cable set top box? My TIVO can control it so I can record the digital channels. Is that feature possible with a home made DVR?

Re:I've become lazy in my dotage.

[sn0wcrash]

You can use an external modem with your Tivo. Not sure if this works during setup. I may find out myself since I am using an external modem myself. Also you can get your modem repaired here.

Don't need one now :)

[AGTiny]

My cable company is rolling out Motorola DCT-6208 80GB HD-PVR boxes in less than a month!! I can finally timeshift all my HD shows. :)

after a month?

[theonetruekeebler]

I know which I'd go for...

And at the end of a month, he will probably know a thing or two about managing video streams, caching, fs tuning, how TiVo works in the first place, and probably a thing or two about building small databases with large BLOBs attached, and maybe start figuring out how to network the FreeVo together with the rest of his LAN so he can watch CNN from his laptop on the porch.

At the end of the same month, however, one who just buys a TiVo will probably know how to watch television.

Whatever happened to taking on a challenge just because it's there?

Re:TiVo Guides -- Was Canada Re:I'd just buy one

[Anonymous Coward]

cool site, thanks!

Good TV out card for PAL?

[wolvie_]

I've been running various combinations of hardware as a TV box for years now, but I've always had one problem: the TV output is crap. At the moment I'm using a NVidia GeForce2 MX with a Chrontel 7006 TV encoder chip, which essentially gives you 2 modes for TV out:

• it's either too small (the image gets surrounded by that big pointless black border),
• or it's too large, so I can't see the Gnome panel as it is outside the area displayed on the TV.

It only supports 640x480 or 800x600 modes, so no matter what settings you choose, the image is being scaled to the TV screen so any text ends up all blurry and illegible. I can capture in decent quality with a cheap BT878 card, but it ends up looking crap when I play it back on the TV.

So can anyone recommend a decent TV output card? Something which preferably doesn't rescale the image at all - just gives you PAL dimensions in the resolution the PC runs at, such that the pixels get mapped properly to the TV screen and the text ends up legible.

Re:Good TV out card for PAL?

[sn0wcrash]

Most people using MythTV are using Geforce based cards. These provide overscan ont he TV out to get rid of the black borders and with some tweaking you should get a pretty decnt fill of the screen. YMMV.

Snapstream

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Snapstream Personal Video Station, best program I've used. Does just about everything and in constant and frequent development (adding features) www.snapstream.com

DIPSHIT

[Anonymous Coward]

he said MB not GB (well, I guess its futile to use bolds since you didn't take notice to them before..), you illiterate jackass

Snapstream

[Anonymous Coward]

Snapstream software - $60
http://www.snapstream.com/

TV Tuner Card - $70

As much HD as you want.

Cnet says the software rocks.

Things Sage does mythtv should NOT copy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a few SageTV features that mythtv should NOT copy:

- The almost unuseable UI
- The habit of attempting to fill up all available space on the hard drive with random recordings as fast as possible after turning it on
- The complete lack of an ability to notice that it is recording the same show 14 times a day when using the XMLTV plugin
- The need to put SageTV in "sleep" mode when you turn off your TV, so it doesn't think that you are watching late-night infomercials, and then decide you LIKE late-night infomercials, and start recording them all for you
- Did I mention the close-to-unuseable UI?

SageTV has some nifty features, but it's more of an experiment than a useable product right now. Version 2.0 will fix some of these problems, but I doubt it will fix the worst of them.

Re:Sage TV

[gatekeep]

Yes, you did miss much more. But apparently not my post from 10/15/03

Seriously man, you reposted my message word for word, including punctuation, without even crediting me!

Re:Via Epia-M board (like SolarPC), with Reservati

[FurryFeet]

You won't have to explain to hot chicks why you have a stupid looking plastic putty-toned computer sitting next to your TV.

I just had to take exception to this.
A lot --really, a LOT-- of girls will react very positively when your explanation is: "Because I made it". Girls like guys who can fix things.
Granted, once you're married yo HAVE to get nice cases, because a wife won't put up with your PC-in-a-wooden-box-sealed-with-silly-putty. But a girlfriend/prospective girlfriend will probably like it.

Digital Satellite and Cable recording? Anyone???

[i)ave]

Is anyone else tired of hearing about people building PVRs and HTPCs that have no ability to record digital cable/setellite feeds? How many high-tech home-theater gurus do you know who only subscribe to basic cable. Until someone figures out a reasonable way to get digital Satellite and Cable (I'm NOT talking about terrestrial HDTV) onto a hard-drive, building a personal PVR seems like a patience-stretching, expensive, excersize in pointlessness. An Uber-recorder needs to have built-in Cable/Satellite decoding if it's going to be of any use to someone who has 500 channels. Honestly, if all you've got is standard basic cable, you might as well save your time and money you'd spend on a PVR and go get Digital Cable for a couple years. Maybe you won't be able to record anything, but at least you'll always have something to watch.

Re:Sage TV

[gatekeep]

I bought a tivo remote and set it up for use in girder. Not only can I control Sage with it, but any other applications I want to run on the PC as well.

I've also got a gyration wireless keyboard/mouse. The mouse is gryscopic so you can wave it in the air to control the cursor. This is great for web surfing and other tasks where the remote just isn't ideal.

Re:Sage TV

[gatekeep]

I'm not sure any PC or hardware based PVR has CC support right now. It's been discussed on the SageTV forums though.. hopefully they'll do it soon.

Mini-ITX?

[Terragen]

This is just screaming for a DIY mini-ITX project..

1) Build up a nice little box with a generous harddrive
2) throw in a tv tuner card
3) search sourceforge for some linux software someone has written up just for this purpose
4) profit?



http://epiacenter.com/
and
http://www.mini-itx.com
usually have interesting mini-itx projects people have done.. i'm sure someone else has done something similar to this.. maybe you can find a useful writeup.

Re:Sage TV

[spinlocked]

> Needle Nardle Noo

Would you like a gorilla?

Where do you guys get by saying things are loud?

[CiXeL]

Computers are NOT loud. Not by comparison to the noise level of living in a city. Try fire engines driving by or airplanes flying overhead. THAT'S LOUD.

Re:sure just buy a tivo if all you want is a PVR..

[Anonymous Coward]

you're not a nice person! your insults have made me sad. :-(

IRman Remote

[monopole]

Thr standard universal IR (UIR) commercially available as the IRman by evation.com is supported, which allows you to train it to any selsected remote. As a result you can train it to be operated under a universal remote.

Re:Sage TV

[JacobO]

Now if you hadn't mentioned it, I would never have become curious. What's even scarier than the picture linked is that I don't feel physically ill like I ought to having seen it. No wait, here it comes...

Misleading price

[EvilStein]

Yeah, that's if you're a new subscriber. if not, the cost is a lot more.

And Best Buy never seems to have those units in stock. Hrm. I got mine at Circuit City.

Re:Misleading price

[Anonymous Coward]

The $99 DirecTivo deal at Circuit Shitty IS valid for existing DTV customers in good standing (meaning, you pay your bill on time).

You do have to agree to keep a programming package for a year. No big deal if you plan to do that anyway.

Re:Misleading price

[ivan256]

Nope. You don't have to be a new subscriber. Just bought one two weeks ago. It extends your contract by a year, but you can be an existing customer.

Re:Misleading price

[EvilStein]

Wow. I did get screwed then.. they insisted that it was for new subscribers only.

Damn, retail stores suck. =/

Cable boxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

A question... how do you handle the situation where you have to use a digital cable box? I've always wanted to set up my own MythTV/Freevo system, but the TiVo knows how to change channels on my cable box... I didn't think any of the PVR cards could do that, and they certainly can't decode a digital cable signal...

I know that in a digital cable system, some of the channels are visible without using the cable box, but what if it's required to view some channels? How are people getting around this problem?

Re:Cable boxes?

[sn0wcrash]

MythTV, Sage TV, and SnapStream all support using a serial cable or IR blaster to change the channel on a digital cable/DTV box.

See if your cable company offers it?

[Zerbey]

A far cheaper option than building a MythTV box!

My cable company [1] gives out a fairly reasonable PVR box for $6 a month. No HDTV, though :( ("Soon" is what I keep getting told).

Worth a look.

[1] Bright House networks, I do know Time Warner offer it, dunno about any other companies. Alternative is DirecTV.

My Homebrew PVR

[knosp]

http://www.knosp.com/projects/pvr/index.html

Although, we love our Tivo, it does have a number of shortcomings/annoyances:

Lifetime Subscription is tied to the device and cannot be transferred when newer, better hardware comes out.
Home Media Option ($100) is per-device
Difficult (with hacking) to extract video for playing on portable devices
No ad-skipping. As much as advertisers don't like to hear it, the fact is that people don't care to watch ads.
I considered hacking my Tivo, but didn't want to break what was already working; thus I decided to build my own.
My setup:
Motherboard/CPU: VIA EPIA M - $150
Memory: Crucial PC2100 DDR 256 MB RAM - $40
Hard Drive: Maxtor 80 GB Hard Drive (already had)
Video Card: Integrated VIA Unichrome AGP graphics with MPEG-2 decoder and TV-out
TV-tuner card: Hauppage WinTV PVR 250 $125
Wireless Keyboard (already had)
Case/Power Supply: Cubix 2699R $80
TOTAL COST: $395

In comparison, a new 80 hour Tivo Series2 ($300) with Home Media Option ($100) and Lifetime Subscription ($300) would cost a total of $700.

Re:My Homebrew PVR

[Da VinMan]

No ad-skipping.

Now wait just a darn second here. No ad skipping? Do you mean to tell me that you can not fast forward through the ads? I understand that a Tivo will record the ads and not skip recording them, but you can fast forward through them; right?

Excuse my ignorance. Though I am interested, I do not own one of these yet. Any other caveats & irritations (minor and major) you could identify would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Re:My Homebrew PVR

[knosp]

Yes, you can definitely fast forward through all the commercials.

Mine

[Mattwolf7]

SuSE 9.0 (Moving to Gentoo soon)
AMD XP 1600+
512 MB 2100 DDR
ATi TV Wonder VE
120gb HD

I <3 it. I also use it as a central music/file/movie server

streaming audio and peer to peer ideas

[CiXeL]

Is there a module to play streaming audio yet? A user created channel thing would be nice too. If they built a P2P module into it so you could download files and play immediately it would be incredible.

Cheep == Spend couple hundred to save $9.95/month?

[BadlandZ]

Cheep == Spend couple hundred to save $9.95/month?

Ok, you going to spend a couple hundred dollars and a lot of time to build a piece of hardware that will cost you more than a new TiVo just so you can save the monthly subscription... Then dig around to get all the software working with the guide and everything? Do you see the irony?

But, anyway, as an owner of a Series II SA TiVo, and two HDVR2's, I also have a strong desire to build a Freevo or MythTV box. But, I'm not happy with that alone, I want to have it run 2 or 3 DVB-PCI cards to get Free-to-Air programming, download the guide data, and have DiSEqC 1.2 Enabled at a minimum, so I can have the thing automatically find satellites, tune in, record.

Then, I need play lists, and then put the box on my channel injector. Channel 105 will become the BadlandZ in home all the show's I love all the time network...

Anyone done that yet?

In Canada

[jefdiesel]

Tivo is not available here, but it seems more and more of the Digital Cable/Satellite providers are offering combo decoder-PVR boxes.

Good thing about this is they already know what channels you get, deal with all your listings. No calls, no updating, no programming.

I'm in Montreal, with Videotron, and they offer such a box for $650, plus $140 programming credit, that means a cheaper cable bill for eight months. So it costs $509, but there is no competition really, as this is the only Cable service in my area, other than the 5820 offered by Bell Canada, but it's a satellite box, and not allowed in my apartment building. The boxes for Videotron are manufactured by Scientific Atlanta, which has more info on them here.

I do believe other cable co's in Canada offer these, Quick searching turns up one at Rogersas well

Since I'm cheap,

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I'm cheap, I'm gonna wait 12 months or so and pay half for used (to get what someone buying today pays for new).

Digital Cable and other hurdles

[starnix]

I havve been looking at building this on my own PC using MythTV however I cannot seem to find much information on the following: 1. I have digital cable which includes about 300+ channels. Most TV tuner cards only handle 125 channels. How do I get this to work with a digital cable box? 2. Is there a way to have MythTV show up on VT8 while X is on VT7 so I can output MythTV to my TV while still being able to use my desktop on my CRT? Any help would be much appreciated.

Tivo's usability is worth it

[smz420]

I was on the fence about this for a while. Being a nerd, I wanted to build my own system. But after using a friend's Tivo, I was convinced that the usability of the system was something I could never replicate.

So, I went ahead and bought a Tivo and it's one of the greatest things I've ever owned. For a device that uses a remote control as its input mechanism, it's fantastic. The UI is nice and clean, and it's incredibly easy to use. My wife, who is generally a technophobe and shys away from geeky things, can't rave enough about Tivo. She was up and using it on the first day.

So, although building a Tivo is a nice challenge, it's totally worth the 5 bucks a month for the value you get from Tivo. Rolling your own solution would be a massive hassle, and you have to program a UI on top of it. IMHO, you'll never get the level of usability that you get with the Tivo.

Plus, you get the added ability to hack it - which in my opinion is a lot more fun than trying to contruct my own.

Re:Sage TV

[Matthew Weigel]

Then here's a response to you:

• multiple recordings at once: touche, but that does make the hardware price extremely high.
• TiVo uses a proprietary wrapper around their MPEG2 streams; you can remove the wrapper and viola, you can record SVCD or DVD.
• Dscalar: if you have an HDTV, have it do the deinterlacing.
• DVD: whooptydoo. DVD players cost only a little more than DVD drives, and are generally much better at DVD playback to boot.
• DivX: OK, maybe you care about that... I'm pretty content not pirating movies, and movies that I wanted to archive, I'd archive in a better format.
• SageTV 'past viewing habits' - the point of the thumbs up/thumbs down is so that things don't become implicitly enjoyed; infomercials anyone? Further, recording a show with a TiVo gives it an implicit thumbs-up.
• no monthly fee: by your own estimate, the SageTV setup costs more than a TiVo with lifetime subscription. Oops.
• stream audio and video: yay, that's great. Series 2 TiVos can do that too. Regardless, once again I'll take separate components for $200, Alex.

Problems with SageTV:

• unhackable, based on Windows. Want caller ID, weather display, etc.? Too bad.
• no web interface, as best I can tell. What do I do when I'm out having fun and remember that I wanted to record a show in 30 minutes? With TiVo, I use my PDA to tell it to record.
• crappy interface.

Tivo makes the most sense though

[mabu]

With DirecTV, the Tivo unit is $99 and $4.95/month. It would cost much more to build your own and the time you'd spend will cost you more money than the lowly fee. It just doesn't make sense to try to homebrew this application. If you want to tinker, there are tons of mods for the Tivo that give you all types of options, expansion and flexibility.

I've had my Tivo now for about two months, and like everyone else who's finally gotten one, I wondered what I ever did without it. The ability to record what I want and watch it later, along with being able to fast-forward past commercials has dramatically improved the quality of my life.

Granted, I am one of those people who generally feels television is shit, but with Tivo, you begin to realize that there are tons of shows that you like but just don't think of because you're using wading through the overwhelming noise that's currently on.

Re:Tivo makes the most sense though

[Anonymous Coward]

DirecTiVo doesn't have an MPEG encoder, it just records a data stream directly from the demodulator. Naturally those are cheaper, and it'd be fairly difficult to hack up an interface between an off-the-shelf DirecTV receiver and a computer (at least compared to simply buying a TV tuner card).

Every month someone comes up with this idea

[SensitiveMale]

Someone complains about the price and someone else says they can build a linux box cheaper and it does just as good of a job.

Nope. Not even close.

The tivo, for what you get and pay for, is a bargain. I bought the lifetime subscription 3 years ago for $200 and I haven't paid a penny for my tivo since.

The best things about the tivo are ease of use, plug and play, and the interface.

Sure you can probably build something that comes close but doesn't work as well and has a clunky interface. While it is cheaper up front, you have to deal with the clumsiness every single time you want to use it.

Tivo is damn cheap for what you get.

Snapstream

[dragin33]

I use Snapstream for my HTPC. I've been using it for over a year now and i can tell you that it's great. It's a very stable, easy to use PVR software package. Check it out!

MythTV Tivo because of FEATURES!

[GameGod0]

I have a dedicated MythTV box for a couple of reasons.
First, there's no guarantee that Tivo won't go belly up and screw you all. With MythTV, the software is open-source (with insanely active development), so it'll last forever, and if you ever want to stop using it, you still have a completely functional PC!

Also, can your Tivo play MAME games, play stuff from your MP3 collection with visualizers, watch DivX movies from your network, get you the weather instantly, play DVDs, or serve you breakfast?

No! (Well, neither can MythTV for the breakfast part...)

Also, you can tell MythTV to record stuff from ANYWHERE in the world by either using the great MythWeb interface, or by using the SMS-based interface for MythTV or by using the WAP skin for MythWeb.

Re:I'd just buy one

[ripewithdecay]

You know, I built myself a PVR for a bit cheaper than that. Since it's only a PVR and not my main box, I picked up a cheap motherboard with a soldered-on processor, which is more than sufficient to record and play video (Duron 1.3GHz).

Cost me $85.

Or..

[msimm]

Why people exchange information.

Just maybe...

[hookedup]

I've got a feature on my tv called Guide+, which gives me tv listings (3 days worth) with my analog cable. Exactly as it would with digital cable or satellite tv. It does so by a wire which splits in two, each having a pieces of plastic with an infrared sensor on the end, one goes in front of your vcr (pointed at front panel), the other just hangs behind the tv. Now, i also have a radeon card which came with guide+ support, so _if_ i had video in, i could watch tv and see the guide from the pc.

It is possible to get tv listings on your pc, now, if someone can do something with it to create a tivo like alternative with the data, remains to be seen.

Take that as a challenge if you want :)

do it for the features

[SethJohnson]

I own a series one Tivo that I've upgraded with an ethernet card and an extra hard drive. I love it, but I am envious of those series 2 owners who enjoy mp3 streaming and photo album viewing on their Tivos. I've got a lifetime subscription on mine, so there's no way I'm going to scrap my Tivo. But....

I'd like to build a MyTH box. Not only would it give me the new series 2 Tivo features I crave, but there's stuff on myth and freevo that aren't in Tivo. Like MAME plugins and different themes. And don't forget the DVD offloading of shows / movies you can do with a DIY solution.

No home Telephone ???

[8400_RPM]

I replaced my home phone with a cellphone. Can Tivo work without a home telephone?

TV Out on PVR-350

[Rufosx]

Yes, the PVR-350 does have TV out. And if all you want is S-Video quality out, then this is the way to go. However, if you want DVI out (or VGA to feed into a component video converter), then you'll want the nVidia card, but then you no longer have any need for using a PVR-350 instead of the PVR-250.

I'm a happy owner of both a TiVo and MythTV.

Mod parent up informative

[sbszine]

P.S. Death to repost trolls.

dreamix!

[Anonymous Coward]

dreamix - dreamix is a good choice (when its released), as it makes use of the cheap and efficient xbox platform. According the the website, they have it pretty functional already - i am patiently awaiting release. however, if you can make mythtv among others work on an xbox.. i'm all ears.

Epia/MythTV/Gentoo

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a lot of info about EPIA/MythTV/Gentoo on http://epia.repvik.org/ Useful info about hardware, drivers etc :)

Re:Sage TV

[wealthychef]

"surpasses TiVo and ReplyTV in every way"? Nope! It will not do the most important thing of all: change channels on a cable or directTV box. So for anybody using cable or DirecTV, this is nearly useless! I agree TiVo has limited features, and they never add new ones (or haven't for litereally years now), but until one of these other competitors figure out how to drive the infrared ports on cable and satellite receivers, I'm stuck with TiVo!

Windows?

[BackwardEngineer]

Is there anything out there like these programs for Windows? other than using some Microsoft crap?

Re:Windows?

[RexxFiend]

just answered this, sorry, didn`t see your question :

It is *not* insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

"Lifetime sub $300-$400"

Lifetime of the UNIT, not YOU.

So that's worth far less than you think.

Re:Hardware MPEG-2 if you want to record TV or DVD

[steveha]

Note that you can always do the MythTV recording using NuppelVideo, the default, but then recompress the data overnight.

However, a hardware MPEG-2 card is the best way I know of to make sure you are paid up on your MPEG-2 license fees, while running free software on your computer.

steveha

AiW and Alchemy DVR

[MacFury]

I have an ATI All in Wonder 7500. The windows software for it stinks! It is one of the shoddest, ugliest, bug ridden pieces of crap I've ever used.

I could never get it to work properly with Freevo or MythTV while running Linux. I finally got fed up and bought the AlchemyTV DVR for my Mac.

I love it, nice software that ties into the system well, and a slew of options for media compression.

This is not flamebait, but if you have a Mac, consider the AlchemyTV DVR for $150.

Refurb Tivo, Additional hard drive, and TurboNet

[Krezel]

I see no reason to fight with MythTV when I can hack my Tivo Series 1 into something much better than a Myth box.

Cost:
$120 for a refurbished Tivo Series 1
$70 (at discount) for a 120gb Western Digital drive.
$10 for a round double-connector IDE cable for the second hard drive. I like round cables, so shoot me.
$70 for a 9thTee.com "TurboNet" 100bt Tivo Ethernet card
------
= $270 for a 246 hour PVR I can access remotely from the internet (TivoWeb), extract video from, and hack to my hearts content.

And its well worth $15/mo for me not to have to deal with a flaky PVR.

And theres a reason why TiVo has such a lock on the market. They've spent so much on UI development and Human Factors that the interface is unbeatable. I've used MythTV. Its nice, but it just can't touch the TiVo.

Even cheaper!

[raygundan]

Amen. I signed up through Expert, as well. $70, and now i've got a pure digital satellite signal that beats the shady analog cable in our area, as well as 2-tuner recording, so the tivo can record two things at once, while I'm watching a third!

But you can get it even cheaper-- go search the tivo community forum for somebody with an expert satellite referral number who is willing to give you a portion of their $65 referral credit back. I found a nice guy who gave me more than half of his credit back. Total price for me? ~$30, with a free DVD player, shipping, installation, tri-LNB dish, and directivo.

Worst case, the guy stiffs you and you pay the full $50. No worse off than you were before, but at least somebody got some cash out of it.

Re:Even cheaper!

[Anonymous Coward]

Devsdeals.com offers a comission split with expert satellite. Its on the home page.

Shuttle XPC for MythTV?

[scruffy92]

I like the idea of using a Shuttle XPC for a MythTV box since they're small and quiet. Anyone have an opinion or any experience on this?

I have a MythTV DVB (our HDTV equivalent) box

[TSTM]

I built it myself in a Small Form Factor PC (Shuttle, if you must know), put a lot of harddisk on it, an IR module and Linux of course.

It works like a dream.. MythTV crashes sometimes.. but there's nothing a good reboot and some patches can't fix. I can use the Web-interface, the remote feature (MythTV is based on a client-server architecture, so you can use it remotely with any PC connected to the same LAN)

The picture quality is absolutely stunning. It's like watching DVD:s on my TV. Also, I absolutely like the convinience of not having to be there recording the shows when they come out.. it's all so beautifully automatic. We have no PVR-systems for sale here in Finland, so you pretty much have to build one yourself if you want one. No TiVo for us.

If I had to pick my favourite OSS-project, it would definetly be MythTV. Still under a lot of development, but very usable.

If you want to ask about my system, please send me some mail [ tstm at ionstream dot fi ]. I'd be glad to share. =)

Rebate Deal

[pwthoma]

I would just buy a DirecTivo for $49 ($99 - %50 rebate) from Dell

Sure, depending on the service level I will have to pay $5/mo for service. It'll take years before I've caught up with a home built unit in cost.

Doesn't anyone care about burning DVD's?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do, and that's why I paid a ridiculous amount of money for the Panasonic DMRE80H. But I'm probably going to return it and just use my current Presario as a PVR, get a new machine for computer-type usage, and then get an external DVD+/-R to move between the two as necessary.

For what it's worth, the Panasonic unit is fantastic, can be had new on eBay for $500, and really offers the same features (minus literal TiVo functionality) as the Pioneer, which is significantly more expensive ($1000 retail).

Tivo is not an option...

[PaulWay]

In countries like Australia (where I live), where it isn't offered. Sadly, with only 20 million people in the land, companies like Tivo say that it's unprofitable for them to try to produce an Australian model. So we have to make one ourselves out of bits of bared wire, fishhooks, soup cans and whatever comes to hand. This is why I'm interested in this thread!

I've also downloaded a trial version of ShowShifter and that comes with plug-ins for Australian programming. Since the TV card I have (LeadTek WinTV 2000 XP, fairly popular here) doesn't seem to be listed under the 'supported products' list of either ShowShifter, freevo or even Video4Linux, so on the whole it doesn't look very promising for us Antipodeans...

Paul

Re:Sage TV

[Neop2Lemus]

Mr Greenslade - button up your kilt!

:-)

Re: mini-ITX cases that support 2 drives?

[WuphonsReach]

That was indeed plan B!

Simple setup if you have a Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

i had a g4 so i figured would it be cheaper to build another box from scratch or just get something to work with one of my current setups...and after owning an ATI all in wonder i thought i'd go with something for the mac...

so i bought an eyeTV from elgato.com....plugged it in and i record bunches of stuffs and it saves stuff in mpeg2 so you can burn vcds to take on the road. and in recent versions of the software now you can edit the recordings to remove commercials ;)

www.elgato.com

I guess when I was younger and misinformed...

[cholke]

Re-engineering is a lot easier than coming up with from scratch. I wish everyone would just get over it and realize that, in the real world, without "for profit" (oooh, that evil Slashdot phrase) companies, products like this would never exist. I wish everyone would just quit trying to get stuff on the cheap. TINSTAAFL!!!! This is part of the problem with our society today. Nobody wants to actually work or pay for anything. JFC people! It just doesn't appear out of thin air!

What happened to supporting developers that actually work for companies such as this. They use the same OS that everyone is such a fanatic about around here. I guess when everyone finishes living in Mom & Dad's basement and actually starts working (thus receiving income by working for someone else) and paying bills, they might feel differently.

Tivo is a fantastic product that I hope will survive even with everyone wanting to rip off their idea. Yeah, yeah...I know all about open source and re-engineering...

Peace,
cholke

Re:I guess when I was younger and misinformed...

[bhima]

It's TANSTAAFL, with an a:"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"

wonderful what USians do to English, ain't it;)

Nice rant though...

Re:I guess when I was younger and misinformed...

[TiggsPanther]

Nobody wants to actually work or pay for anything. JFC people! It just doesn't appear out of thin air!

Errrrm, it looks pretty much like he wants to pay for the equipment and "work" to get the software working.

Yes, Tivo can do the job. Yes, they use Linux - a major plus-point in their favour and worthy of support.
But if you're a geek-type, what's wrong with wanting to go homebrew?

If you've got the knowledge, the time, and the will, then I don't see a problem with wanting to "build your own" DVR. In fact, with those it makes it easier to deal if stuff goes wrong. When there's a failure, you can tweak it yourself.

There's nothing worse than having the technical knowhow to fix a relatively simple error, only to have your hands tied by "service agreements" and the like.

Tiggs

Wrong comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

A Freevo or Myth box is more than just a tivo. If you are going to compare the Linux solutions compare it to Microsoft's Media Center Edition. It is surely a money saver compared to that over priced crap.

Re:Sage TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Well actually I just used the anti slash DB tool search for Tivo.

To your credit, you had by far the best post on the subject, so yeah of course I posted it.

I couldn't possibly give you credit - that would get less mod points.
You do understand that the idea is to gain as high a raiting as possible so that when people wake up and say "OMG! THE SIG!!!" the post stays above 1 for some time.

Plus the whole post took me 16 seconds. You see I know this for a fact because I hit 'reply' went to anti slash DB pasted your post and hit submit. It told me I couldn't post because only 16 seconds had elapsed.

Well I hope you found this whole thing at least 1/100th as funny as I did...and I almost pissed myself laughing. Some of the responses were pricless.

-BadCable
-Stump

Which side are you on?

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo is a perfect example of a company that deserves your loyalty. They support hackers. They use Linux. They put out a kick-ass product. This is exactly what people criticize Microsoft for not being.

And what do you do to support this company? Do you buy their product? Do you try to convince all your friends and family to buy this product? No. You try to find a way to get the TiVo product for free.

Feel that? That's the feeling of being a hypocrite. Hope you enjoy it.

Re:Which side are you on?

[maroberts]

I've bought and paid for a TiVo. Its very nice, but now I want something more powerful. If TiVo offered a PVR that got email, ran games, had a Ethernet port and built in Satellite tuner, could serve to PCs etc, I'd be buyng it.

B.T.W. I know a TiVo2 can do some of these things just not all, whereas a MythTv box can do anything you tell it to.

Re:Hardware MPEG-2 if you want to record TV or DVD

[steveha]

Note that you can always do the MythTV recording using NuppelVideo, the default, but then recompress the data overnight.

In case you are wondering if this will degrade video quality (compressing it twice): I haven't tested it but I don't think it will, as long as you choose a very high quality level for the NuppelVideo.

a hardware MPEG-2 card is the best way I know of to make sure you are paid up on your MPEG-2 license fees

This is if you want to be able to burn DVDs that can play in DVD players, and you want to make sure you are legal with respect to patent license fees. If you don't care about being compatible with DVD players, you could use Ogg Theora when it's ready, and not need to worry about patent fees.

http://www.theora.org/

steveha

Homebrew HDTV Tivo?

[Mondoz]

I so desperately want a Tivo that can do HDTV. I finally broke down and bought a Tivo before going on a 7 week trip (hopefully it's catching my shows while I'm gone), but I'm missing all the HDTV versions of some of the shows.

When will we see a Tivo type device that supports this?

MythTV, Gentoo, and EPIA's

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone is interested, there is a forum at epia.repvik.org that deals exclusively (well, almost) with Mini-ITX motherboards, Gentoo, and MythTV. If you have any questions about building your own box, this is the place to go!

related question

[portscan]

I am about to retire my current PC (P3 733, 384MB RAM, 140GB, SBLive -- running Gentoo Linux), and was seriously considering turning it into a Tivo-like device. My question (which I assume others have as well) is what do I need to do to a standard existing PC to turn it into a PVR? I know I need to buy a PVR card (I was looking at the Hauppauge ones), but is there anything else I need? Do I need a video card with video out to connect the box to a TV, or will the PVR card handle this? If I don't want to only use a TV, can I view the content easily on my monitor? What if I want it to work with a remote control? Is this possible (especially under Linux)? Anything connected to my TV had better be remote-control operated :-).

I would greatly prefer to stay with Linux, but I would be willing to switch distros if that would make setup easier.

P.S. I am a student, so I don't have any electricity costs. The university pays the electric bills, so I don't really care that having a PC on all the time costs a few extra dollars per month.

Nope, but..

[Channard]

A VCR is not nonlinear, and it's not hackable like a TiVo is.

But tapes are portable - a Tivo style device with a DVDR in it with the ability to move recording to DVD would be the best of both worlds.

Re:Nope, but..

[Cratylus]

You mean like this?

Re:Nope, but..

[j-turkey]

...a Tivo style device with a DVDR in it with the ability to move recording to DVD would be the best of both worlds.

Indeed, it would be the best of both worlds. MythTV and Freevo are both capable of this. Further, since TiVo's are hackable, it's possible to stick them on a network and rip the files onto your computer. After that, you can do whatever you need to -- burn a DVD, share it over a network, etc. I believe that the possibilities are greater (and more convinent) with a PVR than a VCR.

--Turkey

Re:Nope, but..

[Anonymous Coward]

The important part of your statement, though, is "the files". What files? TV programs? VCRs can copy a lot more than TV programs, they can easily copy other tapes, such as commercially purchased movies. If the TIVO can't do that, then it is lacking functionality which VCRs have.

Re:Nope, but..

[lvirden]

> a Tivo style device with a DVDR in it with the ability to move recording to DVD would be the best of both worlds

That's probably why Pansonic has at least one such device for sale. I suspect that other companies also have them, or are scrambling to get them out...

Re:Nope, but..

[mhesseltine]

You mean like this one from Pioneer

Sure, it's a little pricey right now. However, given the way the market works, in 1-2 years, these should be pretty affordable.

born in U.S.A.

[mennucc1]

all of the above remarks and comments are very deep and insightful.... if you happen to live in the U.S.A.! Outside the country, Tivo is not an option.
(sometimes there is truth in the jokes)

To keep the temperature down..

[Starv]

To keep the temperature down and make the box more quiet, consider underclocking the processor.

Get a Tivo

[NuShrike]

It's cheaper to get a Tivo, and if you really wanted to hack something, hack the Tivo, for more HD space, better kernel, ethernet support, TivoWeb, and whatever else.

Fun and cheap.

Re:Get a Tivo

[NuShrike]

So now with a TiVo properly hacked, you can run a web & ftp server, nice Web frontend, MythTV front end, download/reencode shows, etc.

And plenty of hacking you can still do, and still much cheaper, less power hungry, and just as fun than a custom solution.

Re:I'd just buy one

[f0rtytw0]

Seen it... You can watch anything on your main tivo from... another tivo. Thats the series 2 and from what I've read they aren't as hackable as the first ones.

My take on the PVR (with windows too!)

[RexxFiend]

I know, I should be using linux but hey, I want to play games too. (not flamebait, just the truth).

Anyway, I have an old windows box in my spare room with an ATI Radeon 8500 all in wonder. Its an ok card for games but it has one killer feature for this sort of thing - an RF remote. It means that I can leave the beige box in the spare room, run AV cables under the floor to the telly in the living room, and conrtol the PC from the living room with the RF remote, sweeeet!

As an aside, although the drivers for ATI tv cards are getting better, they are still not great for controlling the PC from a telly in the next room. I would thoroughly recommend a freeware (not open source, sorry) proggy called myhtpc its fully customisable, well supported by the author, and has xmltv support. Definately worth a look if you want to stick to windys.

The TIVO is the tricycle

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on what you value. I like the greater carrying and copying conveniences of VCRs. No DRM at all on mine - yum! TIVO is in the dark ages compared to the advantages of VCRs which I value. TIVO will never be a viable product for me until it meets my needs. I don't need to watch the first fifteen minutes of a show while I'm taping the next 15 minutes' worth. What I need is to make crisp copies easily on portable and re-copyable tape. VCRs rock! TIVO? Still playing catch up.

playing TiVo recordings

[Anonymous Coward]

Try TyStudio...

SnapStream

[vogelap]

Not FREE, but EXCELLENT: SnapStream (www.snapstream.com) is a Windows-based Personal Video Recorder software. I use it with my PVR250 and LOVE it. Free guide updates. Schedule recordings remotely.

MOD PARENT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? He has no sig.

Moderators, mod him offtopic/flambait.

Check out my experiences with Myth..

[Vignettian]

http://www.rowerules.com/mythtv

options

[Anonymous Coward]

there are several "set-top boxes" avalable today that include a DVDR and work with either an internal HDD or a DVD-RAM disk, that are not subscribtion based.

Damn you slashdot!

[harborpirate]

I've been looking at buying this card for months - now you've ensured it'll never be in stock. Aaaarrrrggg...

why?

[LifesABeach]

a vcr, at best can hold about 6 hours of tape. that's pretty good for most folks; but.....

let's say you wish to archive 'battle star galactica' while away on a business trip; buy another vcr?

let's say you prefer to watch toonanime, but your schedule does not allow you to stay up and be happily entertained. maybe you like toonanime so much that would rather watch it over again while studying, than watch 'friends', or 'walking with m$-products' on the discovery channel. buy more vcr's? wow!

for $75 for pci-win-catv card, $160 for a 250 gig h/d; i can program my catv schedule,(remotely), and be gone for the next 60 days to my client site an not miss another howard stern show.

Re:Digital Satellite and Cable recording? Anyone??

[Auburn_AL]

I agree. I started out with a stand alone Tivo. Now I have an UltimateTV. (Upgraded to 120 hours)The difference is incomparable. Still on the Tivo side I could at least extract the video. I want something that will allow me to use my HTPC with my satellite dish. The only solution appears to be an IR tether.

Way to lie with the numbers

[Anonymous Coward]

And that savings will continue to grow over time, for as long as you use the PVR.

Now nice of you to ignore the $299 lifetime subscription option. $299/12.95 = ~24 months.

I got the lifetime subscription, and my TiVo will be 2 years old next month. After that, the listings are effectively free. And I don't plan to get a different model, I enjoy tinkering with my Series 1-- I replaced the 20GB HDD with a 120GB model, added the ethernet card and installed the TiVoweb software.

Distinguish XMLTV from IE

[tepples]

There's not really much they can do to tell the difference between an XMLTV script and a user browsing the web page with Internet Explorer

What about the fact that Microsoft Internet Explorer will pull advertisement images? What about the fact that Microsoft Internet Explorer has its own peculiarities to its interpretation of the RFCs? What about the fact that users of Microsoft Internet Explorer will happily adjust to different ways to code the same information in HTML, while XMLTV's transformation needs to be updated periodically?

Internet access is a consideration

[tepples]

For me in my area DirecTV is MUCH cheaper than cable.

But DirecWay internet access has unacceptable latency for many purposes, and DSL plus DirecTV is more expensive in many areas than cable Internet plus cable TV.

Re:Internet access is a consideration

[AlexZander]

Of course, if you're like me, you have your telephone through Comcast as well, because the only thing more evil than Comcast is Verizon.

Comcast allowed me to keep my cable modem at the lower cost because I still had a "bundled" package, and DirecTV with HBO and the TiVo $4.99 monthly fee was cheaper than Comcast Digital Cable (and no premium packages) and my regular TiVo subscription fee. Dual-LNB installation didn't cost me a penny extra, and Best Buy was selling DirecTiVos for $89 with free installation.

(And the fact that DSL is only available in my town through Verizon made me stick with cable modem service anyhow)

I've got one word

[cshabazian]

ReplayTV!!!! All of my friends with Tivo units are jealous of my ability to: Watch shows from my Family Room ReplayTV on my Bedroom ReplayTV Send shows via internet to other ReplayTV users (never actually DONE it, but I have the capability) And most of all, NETWORK my ReplayTV which allows me to download programs to my PC and burn to DVD!!! Seriously, why anyone would by Tivo over ReplayTV escapes me. Yes, they HAD financial problems in the past, but now they are owned by Denon, and they aren't going away.

Re:Sage TV

[spinlocked]

You with the zink cardigan, are you English?

Paris Hilton

[ClioCJS]

She answers the phone?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I mostly just want the video because Paris doesn't want me to have it. P.S. agree with ya about the tranceivers, but not the tin foil hats.

Re:Sage TV

[Neop2Lemus]

Not really, born there, grew up here:Canada.

You?

$50 Leadtek PVR

[stankulp]

Works great. Less filling.

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DE PA =0&sumit=Go&description=14%2D122%2D132&searchdepa= 0