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You want fast and a garbage collector??

Yes.

Objective-C is slow? Um... not terribly. Large memory footprint? Not unless you're forgetting to deallocate objects, or just have a bad design.

Obj-C boxes are huge. Method calls are heavily indirected. All this makes for more dynamism, but I stand by my claim that Python beats it, and that Objective-C beats it.

120-some-character method names? Not typically, and verbose method names are actually good, if occasionally overdone. Yea, it's unsafe, it's a superset of C, of course it's unsafe. You really think Objective-C is less memory-hungry than Python or O'Caml? Interesting... I'd like to see your benchmarks there.

CPU
Memory
LOC

OK, so they're toy problems, all benchmarks are lies, etc. But do you see why Obj-Caml is attractive?

It's clear we have different ideas of what makes a language developer-friendly. Access to C routines makes Objective-C developer-friendly in my book.

True. But mixing C and Objective-C code can be painful, even though they're compatible.

C is great for the core of most calculation routines of any type. Which is how it is often used in the context of an Objective-C program. You don't always need high-level.

Agreed. Which is why most high-level languages have a decent FFI.

Now you're making me wonder how many Python or O'Caml games there are out there. I guess there must be a few... any commercial ones? C++ when written correctly is awfully high-level, no? I can't belive you'd complain about Objective-C syntax and not C++ syntax...

Not very many. I don't keep track of commercial ones and can google as fast as you can. Plenty of compilers (eg Felix) are written in O'Caml, as well as some math stuff (FFTW). I don't think Caml is good for games though. Now, there is this Python gaming kit which is supposed to be pretty good, but I don't know what games are written in it. Most $n million productions are C++ and C, as you've said, but that's because it has to be fast.

I like Objective-C syntax for high-level code, because it's clean and descriptive, but for small, simple routines it's encumbering. C++ syntax is bitchy and complicated, but it's reasonably concise.

First, slow compared to what? Link me up with that Java/Python benchmark comparison.

Python is slower, but it's designed to have a C core for stuff that has to be fast. It has a very clean FFI, whereas Java has none.

No, really. Something tells me you might just be making this stuff up, repeating something you read somewhere or something. Java used to be slow. Starting up a JVM can be slow. Some Swing drawing routines on some platforms can be slow. I'm also wondering, huh, do you think of programming in terms of anything besides games?

Yes, I think about it mostly in terms of real applications, hence my inability to name commercial games written in any of these

You want fast and a garbage collector??

Yes.

Objective-C is slow? Um... not terribly. Large memory footprint? Not unless you're forgetting to deallocate objects, or just have a bad design.

Obj-C boxes are huge. Method calls are heavily indirected. All this makes for more dynamism, but I stand by my claim that Python beats it, and that Objective-C beats it.

120-some-character method names? Not typically, and verbose method names are actually good, if occasionally overdone. Yea, it's unsafe, it's a superset of C, of course it's unsafe. You really think Objective-C is less memory-hungry than Python or O'Caml? Interesting... I'd like to see your benchmarks there.

CPU
Memory
LOC

OK, so they're toy problems, all benchmarks are lies, etc. But do you see why Obj-Caml is attractive?

It's clear we have different ideas of what makes a language developer-friendly. Access to C routines makes Objective-C developer-friendly in my book.

True. But mixing C and Objective-C code can be painful, even though they're compatible.

C is great for the core of most calculation routines of any type. Which is how it is often used in the context of an Objective-C program. You don't always need high-level.

Agreed. Which is why most high-level languages have a decent FFI.

Now you're making me wonder how many Python or O'Caml games there are out there. I guess there must be a few... any commercial ones? C++ when written correctly is awfully high-level, no? I can't belive you'd complain about Objective-C syntax and not C++ syntax...

Not very many. I don't keep track of commercial ones and can google as fast as you can. Plenty of compilers (eg Felix) are written in O'Caml, as well as some math stuff (FFTW). I don't think Caml is good for games though. Now, there is this Python gaming kit which is supposed to be pretty good, but I don't know what games are written in it. Most $n million productions are C++ and C, as you've said, but that's because it has to be fast.

I like Objective-C syntax for high-level code, because it's clean and descriptive, but for small, simple routines it's encumbering. C++ syntax is bitchy and complicated, but it's reasonably concise.

First, slow compared to what? Link me up with that Java/Python benchmark comparison.

Python is slower, but it's designed to have a C core for stuff that has to be fast. It has a very clean FFI, whereas Java has none.

No, really. Something tells me you might just be making this stuff up, repeating something you read somewhere or something. Java used to be slow. Starting up a JVM can be slow. Some Swing drawing routines on some platforms can be slow. I'm also wondering, huh, do you think of programming in terms of anything besides games?

Yes, I think about it mostly in terms of real applications, hence my inability to name commercial games written in any of these

You want fast and a garbage collector??

Yes.

Objective-C is slow? Um... not terribly. Large memory footprint? Not unless you're forgetting to deallocate objects, or just have a bad design.

Obj-C boxes are huge. Method calls are heavily indirected. All this makes for more dynamism, but I stand by my claim that Python beats it, and that Objective-C beats it.

120-some-character method names? Not typically, and verbose method names are actually good, if occasionally overdone. Yea, it's unsafe, it's a superset of C, of course it's unsafe. You really think Objective-C is less memory-hungry than Python or O'Caml? Interesting... I'd like to see your benchmarks there.

CPU
Memory
LOC

OK, so they're toy problems, all benchmarks are lies, etc. But do you see why Obj-Caml is attractive?

It's clear we have different ideas of what makes a language developer-friendly. Access to C routines makes Objective-C developer-friendly in my book.

True. But mixing C and Objective-C code can be painful, even though they're compatible.

C is great for the core of most calculation routines of any type. Which is how it is often used in the context of an Objective-C program. You don't always need high-level.

Agreed. Which is why most high-level languages have a decent FFI.

Now you're making me wonder how many Python or O'Caml games there are out there. I guess there must be a few... any commercial ones? C++ when written correctly is awfully high-level, no? I can't belive you'd complain about Objective-C syntax and not C++ syntax...

Not very many. I don't keep track of commercial ones and can google as fast as you can. Plenty of compilers (eg Felix) are written in O'Caml, as well as some math stuff (FFTW). I don't think Caml is good for games though. Now, there is this Python gaming kit which is supposed to be pretty good, but I don't know what games are written in it. Most $n million productions are C++ and C, as you've said, but that's because it has to be fast.

I like Objective-C syntax for high-level code, because it's clean and descriptive, but for small, simple routines it's encumbering. C++ syntax is bitchy and complicated, but it's reasonably concise.

First, slow compared to what? Link me up with that Java/Python benchmark comparison.

Python is slower, but it's designed to have a C core for stuff that has to be fast. It has a very clean FFI, whereas Java has none.

No, really. Something tells me you might just be making this stuff up, repeating something you read somewhere or something. Java used to be slow. Starting up a JVM can be slow. Some Swing drawing routines on some platforms can be slow. I'm also wondering, huh, do you think of programming in terms of anything besides games?

Yes, I think about it mostly in terms of real applications, hence my inability to name commercial games written in any of these

Try http://www.debian.org/security/. It's more than just a line in your sources.list.

and the fixes?

Yep, that's there too. For example, this page about an xpdf problem has date reported, links to the bug track which document the problem, the CVE page, itself what you are looking for, and packages to fix the problem. XPDF? Bummer, I had no idea, but I'm glad it got fixed in the upgrade last week.

Practically, you drop the appropriate line into your /etc/apt/sources.list file:

deb http://security.debian.org stable/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org testing/updates main contrib non-free

and security update will happen at every apt-get update, apt-get upgrade you do. Asking to add this line has been part of the installation for a long time. It may be the only thing you need for your sources.list file.

The Sarge net install CD gets all of it's packages straight off the web and does so before starting services that might be exploited. This makes every install as current as it can be and the whole process relatively secure. That's the bottom line, right?

Compare that to the typical Windoze wipe and reload with the "orignial" years old CD that came with the computer and M$'s aging codebase and you start to see how the free software development and distribution methods are vastly superior to closed source.

Try http://www.debian.org/security/. It's more than just a line in your sources.list.

and the fixes?

Yep, that's there too. For example, this page about an xpdf problem has date reported, links to the bug track which document the problem, the CVE page, itself what you are looking for, and packages to fix the problem. XPDF? Bummer, I had no idea, but I'm glad it got fixed in the upgrade last week.

Practically, you drop the appropriate line into your /etc/apt/sources.list file:

deb http://security.debian.org stable/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org testing/updates main contrib non-free

and security update will happen at every apt-get update, apt-get upgrade you do. Asking to add this line has been part of the installation for a long time. It may be the only thing you need for your sources.list file.

The Sarge net install CD gets all of it's packages straight off the web and does so before starting services that might be exploited. This makes every install as current as it can be and the whole process relatively secure. That's the bottom line, right?

Compare that to the typical Windoze wipe and reload with the "orignial" years old CD that came with the computer and M$'s aging codebase and you start to see how the free software development and distribution methods are vastly superior to closed source.

You really think Objective-C is less memory-hungry than Python or O'Caml? Interesting... I'd like to see your benchmarks there.

It's hardly an accurate benchmark - in fact, it's covered with disclaimers that basically say "this benchmark is meaningless" - but the Great Computer Language Shootout ranks OCaml second for memory usage, with 36.82 points, beaten only by pure C. Python is mid-range, with 17.65 points. Where's Objective-C? Way down near the bottom of the chart with just 10.46 points.

Of course, that may be caused by OCaml having better implementations of the benchmarks, rather than by it being an inherently faster and more efficient language. It sounds like you care about how people perceive Objective-C, so maybe you'd like to head on over to http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ and check out the Objective-C code yourself? If you were willing to submit some faster versions of some of the tests, the whole community would benefit, by having its most famous multi-language benchmark becoming more accurate.

Frankly I don't need standardisation nor rpm's. The Debian archive gives me everything that I need, and if it ever failed I would prefer to use use http://packages.debian.org/unstable/admin/alien

Why can't we just agree on a standard or two (such as putting everything in the same place, and using the same format for the "installed packages" list) so that I could start with RPM, delete it and install Apt, and keep going (or vice versa)?

The FHS (Filesystem Hierchy Standard) is designed to address this very issue: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/

Unfortunately it isn't specific enough. We need a second set of guidlines to deal with specific classes of software (KDE-based, GNOME-based, pytho n programs, Java programs, etc.). They have some special requirements (CLASS PATHS, ksycoca system, gconf, etc.) that probably need to be addressed. Until then it's up to the distros to decide these issues.

Debian, for example, has a set of "policies" to deal with Java programs, Perl programs, etc: http://www.debian.org/devel/. I think these should be used as a basis for an FHS-like standard.

The problem I've run into, and it isn't a big one, and I'm not sure after reading everything how the LSB would deal with this, is that most RPM packages install start up scripts that rely on RedHat specific shell includes and functions to do the start up sequence.

Other than that it's peachy.

Wow,

It seems like I'm the only person who read this and thought, "Hey! I should do that too!"

Honestly though, stop giving the guy such a hard time. I talk to lots of people who tell me they've been vaguely wanting to try GNU/Linux but didn't know how/we're scared to try/etc. I first tried GNU/Linux by using a SuSE Live CD, and now I run Debian on all my computers.

So long as the CD Label provides a few simple but essential instructions, it could be really appreciated by some recipients.

The labels should say something like: This is a version of GNU/Linux. Put this CD in your computer's CD-Rom drive and restart the computer. You will get a demonstration of GNU/Linux that will NOT alter your hard drive or damage your current Windows operating system. Did I mention it has games? Enjoy! For more information, check out: http://www.mepis.org (assuming you put Mepis on the CDs.)

With all the griping about Debian's installer, I wonder how many times one actually installs a new distro on bare metal.

I have the same debian installation going for the past three years. Sure, I've upgraded the distribution to the latest stable release, but it didn't require a reinstallation, only an apt-get dist-upgrade.

The debian installer may not be the easiest installer around, but it works on all the platforms out there, and the main objection -- dselect -- isn't difficult if you RTFM

Use the Power of Google. Also,I believe Debian has been used on NASA space shuttles before now and they use their own version of GNU/Linux a lot.

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Please show your support for Ceren in this poll of Geek Babes!

Is it any wonder people think Linux users are a bunch of flaming homosexuals when its fronted by obviously gay losers like these?! BSD has a mascot who leaves us in no doubt that this is the OS for real men! If Linux had more hot chicks and gorgeous babes then maybe it would be able to compete with BSD! Hell this girl should be a model!

Linux is a joke as long as it continues to lack sexy girls like her! I mean just look at this girl! Doesn't she excite you? I know this little hottie puts me in need of a cold shower! This guy looks like he is about to cream his pants standing next to such a fox. As you can see, no man can resist this sexy little minx. Don't you wish the guy in this pic was you? Are you telling me you wouldn't like to get your hands on this ass?! Wouldn't this just make your Christmas?! Yes doctor, this uber babe definitely gets my pulse racing! Oh how I envy the lucky girl in this shot! Linux has nothing that can possibly compete. Come on, you must admit she is better than an overweight penguin or a gay looking goat! Wouldn't this be more liklely to influence your choice of OS?

With sexy chicks like the lovely Ceren you could have people queuing up to buy open source products. Could you really refuse to buy a copy of BSD if she told you to? Personally I know I would give my right arm to get this close to such a divine beauty!

Don't be a fag! Join the campaign for more cute open source babes today!

$Id: ceren.html,v 9.0 2004/08/01 16:01:34 ceren_rocks Exp $

Ahh to be clear I didn't write it, but I hacked my local copy.

As for sanitization, yes. I added a filter to strip out all HTML tags not explicitly allowed, using HTML::Scrubber./p

Given how many times an update has broken an app or caused a conflict I cant say I would welcome an auto updating autonomous Linux system. As with any modern OS an admin must review what an update does and test it out prior to rolling it out to the unwashed masses. This is true of any and all oporating systems, be they MacOS, Linux, Windows or what have you.

While auto-updating has its risks, it is possible to backport fixes to the current version of the software in the release, as at least one linux distro does for its stable branch. Prevents a lot of breakage.

You are right, a good system admin should pretest patches first. But this is the world where there are 10 people in the local office, and no admins. I'd take the risk of a back-ported patch rather then all of the unpatched systems out there.

Of course, any good admin should be able to disable autoupdates.

Robin Miller asks the question and makes the case for starting a business to sell a self-updating networked Linux system for small business. Any takers?

Yes

Are you smoking crack? Deb won't support LSB? They ALREADY DO. In the 'stable' distro they support LSB 1.1, and 'testing' has LSB 2.0 support, as demonstrated by the link above. Do a little research before you post.

In fact, the Debian developers track the standards almost religiously, and have for a long time. Filesystem Hierarchy Standard and LSB support have been part of Debian for a long time now. That's why I personally use Debian. It is a completely free, relatively easy to use and administer (once you are past the initial learning curve), standards compliant distro with almost every open-source/free package out there already packaged for installation from the Debian distro mirrors.

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Please show your support for Ceren in this poll of Geek Babes!

Is it any wonder people think Linux users are a bunch of flaming homosexuals when its fronted by obviously gay losers like these?! BSD has a mascot who leaves us in no doubt that this is the OS for real men! If Linux had more hot chicks and gorgeous babes then maybe it would be able to compete with BSD! Hell this girl should be a model!

Linux is a joke as long as it continues to lack sexy girls like her! I mean just look at this girl! Doesn't she excite you? I know this little hottie puts me in need of a cold shower! This guy looks like he is about to cream his pants standing next to such a fox. As you can see, no man can resist this sexy little minx. Don't you wish the guy in this pic was you? Are you telling me you wouldn't like to get your hands on this ass?! Wouldn't this just make your Christmas?! Yes doctor, this uber babe definitely gets my pulse racing! Oh how I envy the lucky girl in this shot! Linux has nothing that can possibly compete. Come on, you must admit she is better than an overweight penguin or a gay looking goat! Wouldn't this be more liklely to influence your choice of OS?

With sexy chicks like the lovely Ceren you could have people queuing up to buy open source products. Could you really refuse to buy a copy of BSD if she told you to? Personally I know I would give my right arm to get this close to such a divine beauty!

Don't be a fag! Join the campaign for more cute open source babes today!

$Id: ceren.html,v 9.0 2004/08/01 16:01:34 ceren_rocks Exp $

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Please show your support for Ceren in this poll of Geek Babes!

Is it any wonder people think Linux users are a bunch of flaming homosexuals when its fronted by obviously gay losers like these?! BSD has a mascot who leaves us in no doubt that this is the OS for real men! If Linux had more hot chicks and gorgeous babes then maybe it would be able to compete with BSD! Hell this girl should be a model!

Linux is a joke as long as it continues to lack sexy girls like her! I mean just look at this girl! Doesn't she excite you? I know this little hottie puts me in need of a cold shower! This guy looks like he is about to cream his pants standing next to such a fox. As you can see, no man can resist this sexy little minx. Don't you wish the guy in this pic was you? Are you telling me you wouldn't like to get your hands on this ass?! Wouldn't this just make your Christmas?! Yes doctor, this uber babe definitely gets my pulse racing! Oh how I envy the lucky girl in this shot! Linux has nothing that can possibly compete. Come on, you must admit she is better than an overweight penguin or a gay looking goat! Wouldn't this be more liklely to influence your choice of OS?

With sexy chicks like the lovely Ceren you could have people queuing up to buy open source products. Could you really refuse to buy a copy of BSD if she told you to? Personally I know I would give my right arm to get this close to such a divine beauty!

Don't be a fag! Join the campaign for more cute open source babes today!

$Id: ceren.html,v 9.0 2004/08/01 16:01:34 ceren_rocks Exp $

The Debian testing distribution already balances the leading edge with robustness very well. I don't think we need a new distribution to do it.

why not? http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/
http://www.debian.org/ports/netbsd/
And using FreeBSD's kernel http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/

why not? http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/
http://www.debian.org/ports/netbsd/
And using FreeBSD's kernel http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/

why not? http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/
http://www.debian.org/ports/netbsd/
And using FreeBSD's kernel http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/

Damn multi-CD distros not using the fact we're *gasp* usually connected to the Internet and can download what we want.

I'm not sure whether that's a comment made in comparison to other distros, but, just in case, here is...

A brief broadband linux tutorial:

Debian

Ubuntu

Arch

Gentoo

The end.

You can find Sun's license here. Sun admits that it isn't an open source license, they are just trying to argue that it is somehow better than open source.

Because Debian is forced to classify software into open source or not, Debian has had to look at this in some detail, and they concluded that it was not open source.

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Please show your support for Ceren in this poll of Geek Babes!

Is it any wonder people think Linux users are a bunch of flaming homosexuals when its fronted by obviously gay losers like these?! BSD has a mascot who leaves us in no doubt that this is the OS for real men! If Linux had more hot chicks and gorgeous babes then maybe it would be able to compete with BSD! Hell this girl should be a model!

Linux is a joke as long as it continues to lack sexy girls like her! I mean just look at this girl! Doesn't she excite you? I know this little hottie puts me in need of a cold shower! This guy looks like he is about to cream his pants standing next to such a fox. As you can see, no man can resist this sexy little minx. Don't you wish the guy in this pic was you? Are you telling me you wouldn't like to get your hands on this ass?! Wouldn't this just make your Christmas?! Yes doctor, this uber babe definitely gets my pulse racing! Oh how I envy the lucky girl in this shot! Linux has nothing that can possibly compete. Come on, you must admit she is better than an overweight penguin or a gay looking goat! Wouldn't this be more liklely to influence your choice of OS?

With sexy chicks like the lovely Ceren you could have people queuing up to buy open source products. Could you really refuse to buy a copy of BSD if she told you to? Personally I know I would give my right arm to get this close to such a divine beauty!

Don't be a fag! Join the campaign for more cute open source babes today!

$Id: ceren.html,v 8.0 2004/08/01 16:01:34 ceren_rocks Exp $

There is a Live CD net install for Debian sarge ("testing"). It uses the new installer and is very nice. I have it as a dual-boot on my PowerBook.

Debian net installer page

I use ad removers like this and this. Or maybe adware preventers would be more appropriate.

That's not much different to other players having issues, apart from being non-skin related.

It's no accident that this call for increased popularity and out-of-the-box utility is being done in the name of "open source". That movement pushes aside software freedom in pursuit of a message to make businesses feel more comfortable. For the open source movement, proprietary software is merely a less technically efficient way of speaking to businesses. Popularity, to them, is more valuable than software freedom. And that's a shame because history teaches that popularity won't get users freedom. Proprietors are chiefly looking to sell users software which denies users their freedom. Proprietors want to treat users as a market, not contribute to the free software community. The open source philosophy makes this more politically feasible.

It's no accident that this call for increased popularity and out-of-the-box utility is being done in the name of "open source". That movement pushes aside software freedom in pursuit of a message to make businesses feel more comfortable. For the open source movement, proprietary software is merely a less technically efficient way of speaking to businesses. Popularity, to them, is more valuable than software freedom. And that's a shame because history teaches that popularity won't get users freedom. Proprietors are chiefly looking to sell users software which denies users their freedom. Proprietors want to treat users as a market, not contribute to the free software community. The open source philosophy makes this more politically feasible.

It's no accident that this call for increased popularity and out-of-the-box utility is being done in the name of "open source". That movement pushes aside software freedom in pursuit of a message to make businesses feel more comfortable. For the open source movement, proprietary software is merely a less technically efficient way of speaking to businesses. Popularity, to them, is more valuable than software freedom. And that's a shame because history teaches that popularity won't get users freedom. Proprietors are chiefly looking to sell users software which denies users their freedom. Proprietors want to treat users as a market, not contribute to the free software community. The open source philosophy makes this more politically feasible.

Did you ever try http://bugs.debian.org? Debian had a sophisticated bugtracking system even before Bugzilla was developed. Bug submitting is as easy as "reportbug PACKAGE" on the command line, and it leads you through much of the workflow involved in doing proper bug reports (e.g. it adds the relevant versions of depending packages automatically).

On the other hand, I always found bugzilla a pain to browse and use. You often need to know way too much about the system in order to search for bugs or to submit bugs (just have a look at Bugzilla's bugreporting system itself to see what I mean). In Debian, you just enter the package name and get a simple-but-straightforward list of bugs structured in categories of importance.

Sebastian

Type 'emerge foo' before going to bed or when you're done using the computer. Why is this such a difficult concept? [...] Do you live in front of the machine?

So, I should type that on all the machines? Is that when I am done using the computers, or when all my users are? Oh, that's right, I have a global, 24x7 operation, and my users never stop using the machines and are never all in bed, and won't tolerate the machines slowing down because they're all compiling something.

Maybe I could optimize this process somehow, like if, instead of doing the compiles on all my machines, I could "cache" the results somehow and have some sort of master copy of the binaries. Then my machine builds and rebuilds, which I'm doing all the time, would be faster, and I'd get machines back into service more quickly.

I guess I could use distcc to reduce compile times, but it'd be even cooler to get those times down to zero by asking the maintainer for a pre-compiled copy instead of duplicating the effort that he's no doubt already done.

It'd be nice if I were running the same binaries everywhere -- that'd be easier to support. In fact, if I ran the exact same binaries as other users of the packages, it'd be easier for us to support each other and debug problems, and I could draw upon a much larger crowd of testers to be sure my applications had a stable platform on which to run. Maybe I can convince the maintainer to hand out packages to them, too.

Of course, I'd want to package the binaries up for convenient distribution and then have some sort of dependency management to be sure I got the right versions installed and a tool to pull the packages from a variety of repositories.

Well, this sounds like quite a project. I wonder if anyone's already done the work for me so I can concentrate on the more important work I have to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the old way of doing this be something like /dev/extensions/audiocd/track1, /dev/extensions/sftp/, /dev/extensions/webdav, and so on? This type of a trick would have allowed these extensions to be used in any app that recognizes the file system, not only KDE type apps.

What was the reason for not implementing these as devices?

It's exactly what the hurd microkernel wants to achieve via its translators concept.

Note that the strenght of the hurd is that it is not actually implemented at the kernel level but at the user's one. The great advantage over the KDE system, is that you still have low level access to those protocols from the command line or all existing non-KDE-aware applications.

Putting this feature into the GUI/desktop handling system is IMHO a very bad architectural decision. Protocols offer access to low level data streams or sinks, they should be made available via low-level interfaces so to all applications without requiring a single change in their code.

The KDE approch requires all applications to link against KDE components or forces the user to use run time wrappers.
This closed approach is in my view a very bad thing as it restricts the user possibilities rather than expanding them "restrictionlessly".

Protocols belong to the "device driver" land (be it a virtual device), let them there, and if that's not a flexible solution for you, then switch to the hurd where they can be user manipulated as a breeze.

This is, IMHO, the sole and most valable reason why the hurd will eventually take precedence over unixes as it will have a huge effect on application configuration costs due to massive inter application data exchanges : the more the operating system handles, the less user and applications need to duplicate work and effort.

First my bias: I'm a Debian user.
There are far to many gentoo fanboys that have simply discovered Linux through Gentoo (which is a good thing) that assume it is the greatest thing since sliced bread (a bad thing).
I'd suggest to them to give an honest attempt at another distro (Debian Sarge Plug). Then go back to Gentoo if they really thing it is the best for them.
Personally, I can't imagine compiling gentoo for each server, or even manging different binary sets for various CPUs, kernels are more then enough for me.
but that's just my $0.02 cdn

just for your info, the new Debian Installer supports RAID and LVM on install and can even use them (lvm and raid1) for root.

First, get a Debian installer. Install a Debian base system.

When the installer offers you the chance to install additional software, say no.

When the install is finished, you will have a minimal system, with a kernel and the most needed utilities. Most importantly, you will have Debian's APT tools (apt-get, etc.) with which to get more software.

Login as root, and run this command:

apt-get install aptitude

This will install a tool called aptitude, which is a friendly character-based (ncurses) package manager. You can search through packages, drill down through the hierarchy, see what depends on what, etc. aptitude is way, way better than dselect!

With Debian, you can install just enough stuff to run. For example, using apt-get or aptitude, you can ask for Gnumeric (the GNU spreadsheet for GNOME) and the system will install just enough of GNOME for Gnumeric to run. (Libraries and such.) If you manually install something like Xfce or IceWM, you can then run GNOME applications without a full-blown GNOME environment. The same goes for KDE.

With Debian, it is possible to recompile all your packages for your computer, but the tools to do it aren't as convenient as the tools in Gentoo. But it is convenient to compile your own kernel, and that's most of the battle right there.

If you want to set up a server, and know exactly what is installed and running on the server, Debian is ideal.

steveha

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$Id: ceren.html,v 9.0 2004/08/01 16:01:34 ceren_rocks Exp $

You can see it everywhere with KDE...starting with their braindamaged way of not using separate tarballs for every app and instead bundling the apps to arbitary categories which can be quite frustrating for people not using KDE wanting to use only a single app.

Maybe you should get a distribution that breaks up the packages into individual apps.

That's not the job of the KDE developers.

The kernel exploit they (And _YOU_) are referring to is a _LOCAL_ exploit, it's the one that affected Debian.

And, by re-reading your post (Yeah, I know. But I'm trying to get drunk here, ya know!), I see you were wrong from the start. See above.

The kernel exploit they (And _YOU_) are referring to is a _LOCAL_ exploit, it's the one that affected Debian.

And, by re-reading your post (Yeah, I know. But I'm trying to get drunk here, ya know!), I see you were wrong from the start. See above.

In Stable, the likelihood of an 0wn4ge is slim to none, in other words.
How about this, or this then?
No distribution is inherently more secure than another, a Debian Woody machine will be as easily compromised as any other distribution, if the admin is incompetent. (And, no, I'm not saying all machines are compromised because of incompetent admins)

Funny, you're right. I never saw the preview release for 1.0 in there, though.

Rubbish. There are many sites in Europe from which you can download it. Try a Google search for pgp download europe. You probably can't download it from a server in the US, but why on earth would you want to? It's usually faster to download from a nearby server.

The effect of the export laws is usually the exact opposite of what you suggest. For example, Debian keeps all of its export-restricted software on servers located outside the US (see the Debian Policy Manual), so that people located in the USA have to download this software from a server outside the USA.

I think that you are right. There is a long flamewar about it on debian-devel http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/10/msg01 230.html

The only thing that confuses me at current is why my Firefox is only avaiable up to version 0.9.3, even in 'testing'...

The latest version is in Debian Experimental. It is possible to install it. I don't know what is holding it up from releasing into Unstable, but there are two things I can think of: Debian takes great care to do the right thing with cross-platform and international versions, and Debian takes great care with the packaging. If 0.10 made changes that affected the localisation, or if 0.10 made changes that affected the Firefox plugins, that could cause problems that would keep the package in Experimental. (Debian actually packages the plugins for Firefox! If Firefox breaks the plugin spec, and old plugins won't work, Debian won't update Firefox until they get new versions of all the plugins; when you do finally get an update to Firefox, all your plugins will automatically update, which is nice.)

There is some black magic you can invoke to get Experimental packages; it is explained here. (That page is about GNOME 2.8, which is in Experimental right now, but the same trick would work for Firefox.) Or you could go here and download the package, and use "dpkg -i" to manually install just that package.

Note that if you just use x86 or PowerPC, you can install Ubuntu Linux, and Ubuntu has packaged 0.10 so you will get it. It also has GNOME 2.8, Evolution 2.0, and just generally cutting-edge software. Ubuntu is planning a 6-month upgrade cycle, so they should be on top of new software as it comes out. Ubuntu is built on top of Debian, so all the basic Debian goodness is there. I'm using Ubuntu and I love it.

steveha

Meta-packages for one-click selection of a typical desktop, development or server

That would be tasksel's job.

But this is like being signed up for regular crotch-kicks, since unstable breaks systems on a practically weekly basis.

Debian's biggest strength, and some would argue biggest weakness, is the Debian Policy.
Take a look at Manoj Srivastava's superb essay on Debian Policy for more info. It's well worth the read.