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Seriously though, imagine you had to buy a Dell without Windows and just had to figure out which drivers you needed for the hardware. You will spend hours with no assurance of success, trust me.

Dell has had these available for a long time. We've sold a lot of them to a our customers running Linux offices - makes life a hell of a lot easier. It's not their full lineup - for example, you can't get one of the ultra-cheap 320 slimlines in the N line, but they're pretty good if you need to throw 10 or 20 linux desktops in an office pretty quickly.

Dell is playing a lot nicer with Linux than they have in the past - the Dimension N series is even offered with RHEL 4 pre-installed.

I'm guessing this is the comparable box in the USA with Windows XP installed: http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /cto_dimenc521?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs The cheapest Chinese model is $512.43 USD and the most expensive is $768.70 USD The cheapest American model is $359 and the most expensive model is $859. That's without add-ons. I don't know Chinese, so I can't really say how the advertised features compare. Perhaps someone who does speak Chinese could say how much money Linux users are (or aren't) saving with a Dell box.

Here is the full link for the notebook

They make it hard to browse to. If you go to the Home/Home Office you won't see it. Neither will Medium/Large Businesses. You need to be a small business to get any use out of it, apparently. Only there will you see open source computers. Yipee!

The excitement wears off for me, however, when I see the Latitude D520 selling for $700 with FreeDOS, and only $600 with Windows XP Home. Better to order the Windows version and try to get your Windows rebate - or better yet, buy your Linux laptops elsewhere.

That has got to be one of the weirdest pages ever. It only worked in the first browser/OS combo I tried, Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP. It didn't work under Opera, IE7 or Firefox 1.5.0.6 on XP or Firefox 2.0, 2.0.0.1 on Linux. When I upgrades from Firefox 1.5.06 to 2.0.0.1 on my other XP box, it could view the page fine. Anyway, the customize links seems to always work:
Latitude D520
620
820
420

That has got to be one of the weirdest pages ever. It only worked in the first browser/OS combo I tried, Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP. It didn't work under Opera, IE7 or Firefox 1.5.0.6 on XP or Firefox 2.0, 2.0.0.1 on Linux. When I upgrades from Firefox 1.5.06 to 2.0.0.1 on my other XP box, it could view the page fine. Anyway, the customize links seems to always work:
Latitude D520
620
820
420

That has got to be one of the weirdest pages ever. It only worked in the first browser/OS combo I tried, Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP. It didn't work under Opera, IE7 or Firefox 1.5.0.6 on XP or Firefox 2.0, 2.0.0.1 on Linux. When I upgrades from Firefox 1.5.06 to 2.0.0.1 on my other XP box, it could view the page fine. Anyway, the customize links seems to always work:
Latitude D520
620
820
420

That has got to be one of the weirdest pages ever. It only worked in the first browser/OS combo I tried, Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP. It didn't work under Opera, IE7 or Firefox 1.5.0.6 on XP or Firefox 2.0, 2.0.0.1 on Linux. When I upgrades from Firefox 1.5.06 to 2.0.0.1 on my other XP box, it could view the page fine. Anyway, the customize links seems to always work:
Latitude D520
620
820
420

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb

I just rewrote the same link they used for the desktops. It seems to work.

Workstations with RedHat pre-installed have been available in Singapore for ages. This seems to only be for small business-targetting workstations, though: I haven't seen any in the home/home office range yet (although atleast one of the OptiPlexs come with 'DOS not factory installed').

Unless you have a very strange or old volume license agreement with Microsoft (different than every other volume license I've ever seen), what you are doing isn't legit. You can't install volume or corporate-license Windows on bare hardware; the hardware has to have some sort of Windows license on it first. I don't think Microsoft sells unlimited-install licenses that entitle you to put XP onto totally bare hardware. It's their way of cooperating with the big VARs; this is one of the reasons why you never see a big company with white-box PCs, even though any reasonably-sized organization with its own IT department could go to Taiwan and get their own equipment for half of what Dell charges. Only the gear that comes with a license sticker on it from the factory is eligible to have corporate images put onto it. (Which really makes me question the utility of those corporate licenses, but I guess that's because I'm not in management.)

Dell is pretty clear about this on their n-Series page, as it states in bold type: "It is not a Microsoft operating system and is not qualified for Windows licensing use under any existing Microsoft Volume Licensing Program (OPEN, Enterprise, etc.) Customers interested in a Microsoft® Windows® solution should purchase a Dell desktop pre-loaded with Windows XP Professional."

If you get audited, you may be in trouble.

The links works for me. Although, when I replace dell.com with either 143.166.224.244 or 143.166.83.38, it gives me a page not found error.
Perhaps this link would work better? What OS, browser, and country are you connecting from?

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/products/compare.a spx/optix?c=ca&cs=CABSDT1&l=en&s=bsd

Just saw some nice links: "Have you considered?: Linux Workstations".

The link is not working for me, either.

Just to confirm, the link I'm trying is http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb, linked to from http://linux.dell.com/. The resulting page is just a generic "The page you requested may no longer exist on Dell.com" error.

What seems odd to me is that the link to "n-Series Desktops" points to http://www.dell.com/nseries, while "n-Series Notebooks" points to http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb. I would have guessed that the URLs for the two destinations would be similar, but they're not.

Is their server just down, or have they decided to purposely bury their Linux laptops?

The link is not working for me, either.

Just to confirm, the link I'm trying is http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb, linked to from http://linux.dell.com/. The resulting page is just a generic "The page you requested may no longer exist on Dell.com" error.

What seems odd to me is that the link to "n-Series Desktops" points to http://www.dell.com/nseries, while "n-Series Notebooks" points to http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb. I would have guessed that the URLs for the two destinations would be similar, but they're not.

Is their server just down, or have they decided to purposely bury their Linux laptops?

The link is not working for me, either.

Just to confirm, the link I'm trying is http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb, linked to from http://linux.dell.com/. The resulting page is just a generic "The page you requested may no longer exist on Dell.com" error.

What seems odd to me is that the link to "n-Series Desktops" points to http://www.dell.com/nseries, while "n-Series Notebooks" points to http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb. I would have guessed that the URLs for the two destinations would be similar, but they're not.

Is their server just down, or have they decided to purposely bury their Linux laptops?

The link is not working for me, either.

Just to confirm, the link I'm trying is http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb, linked to from http://linux.dell.com/. The resulting page is just a generic "The page you requested may no longer exist on Dell.com" error.

What seems odd to me is that the link to "n-Series Desktops" points to http://www.dell.com/nseries, while "n-Series Notebooks" points to http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb. I would have guessed that the URLs for the two destinations would be similar, but they're not.

Is their server just down, or have they decided to purposely bury their Linux laptops?

Well, I'm sorry about that (not sure why it's doing that). To find them, try going to http://linux.dell.com./ Look along the side for links to "n Series" laptops and desktops.

No it's not. I have one. OptiPlex GX280n. The "n" is for "no OS", it does come with a CD of FreeDOS, but other than that, you're on your own. You can see their newer versions of the "n" series by clicking this link http://www1.la.dell.com/content/products/compare.a spx/optix_n?c=pr&l=en&s=bsd

Nothing at all.

Just look at Dell's Chinese website: there, right in the middle, amongst all those Chinese characters, you'll see the caozuo xitong ("operating system") listed in clear Roman letters: Linux.

http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/products/features. aspx/dimen_c521?c=cn&cs=cndhs1&l=zh&s=dhs

(The stuff at the top says Dell "recommends the use of" XP Professional.)

You actually can configure a desktop or notebook without Windows directly from their web site. The selection is more limited, and it's harder to find, but Dell will sell you a system with FreeDOS instead of Windows.

You actually can configure a desktop or notebook without Windows directly from their web site. The selection is more limited, and it's harder to find, but Dell will sell you a system with FreeDOS instead of Windows.

I would love to see mainstream computer makers sell linux boxes and to advertise them on their home page.

I know that it is possible to set up the wide screen and wi-fi.

And the laptop you link to is 300 more than my Dell e1505 with the same setup.

They have been getting around this by loading either Redhat or a version of DOS. The demand has not been very high though.

Here's an example: The Dell "N Series". That's their line of PCs for "open source" -- sold without an OS. Search for "N Series" on their website. Can't find it. You'll have to ask Google. How about one of the models in that series, like the E521n? It can't be found. Now, search Dell's site for the "normal" version, the E521 with Windows mandatory, and sure enough, that they know. But, the E521n is indeed available. They just hide it.

For the curious, the difference in cost is about $30 if configured the same except for OS.

So, saying that the "demand has not been very high" is like saying that I received very few inquiries on the 1 pound bar of gold I was offering for $10 last month, when the only place I posted the notice of the sale was on the inside of my furnace cover, accessible behind 2 bolts, in the furnace room of my basement. Of COURSE demand was low. They did almost everything short of making the web page with 6pt font in the same color as the background to hide them.

P.S. I'm not advocating the E521 for use with Linux, it was an illustration only.

They have been getting around this by loading either Redhat or a version of DOS. The demand has not been very high though.

Here's an example: The Dell "N Series". That's their line of PCs for "open source" -- sold without an OS. Search for "N Series" on their website. Can't find it. You'll have to ask Google. How about one of the models in that series, like the E521n? It can't be found. Now, search Dell's site for the "normal" version, the E521 with Windows mandatory, and sure enough, that they know. But, the E521n is indeed available. They just hide it.

For the curious, the difference in cost is about $30 if configured the same except for OS.

So, saying that the "demand has not been very high" is like saying that I received very few inquiries on the 1 pound bar of gold I was offering for $10 last month, when the only place I posted the notice of the sale was on the inside of my furnace cover, accessible behind 2 bolts, in the furnace room of my basement. Of COURSE demand was low. They did almost everything short of making the web page with 6pt font in the same color as the background to hide them.

P.S. I'm not advocating the E521 for use with Linux, it was an illustration only.

They have been getting around this by loading either Redhat or a version of DOS. The demand has not been very high though.

Here's an example: The Dell "N Series". That's their line of PCs for "open source" -- sold without an OS. Search for "N Series" on their website. Can't find it. You'll have to ask Google. How about one of the models in that series, like the E521n? It can't be found. Now, search Dell's site for the "normal" version, the E521 with Windows mandatory, and sure enough, that they know. But, the E521n is indeed available. They just hide it.

For the curious, the difference in cost is about $30 if configured the same except for OS.

So, saying that the "demand has not been very high" is like saying that I received very few inquiries on the 1 pound bar of gold I was offering for $10 last month, when the only place I posted the notice of the sale was on the inside of my furnace cover, accessible behind 2 bolts, in the furnace room of my basement. Of COURSE demand was low. They did almost everything short of making the web page with 6pt font in the same color as the background to hide them.

P.S. I'm not advocating the E521 for use with Linux, it was an illustration only.

They have been getting around this by loading either Redhat or a version of DOS. The demand has not been very high though.

Here's an example: The Dell "N Series". That's their line of PCs for "open source" -- sold without an OS. Search for "N Series" on their website. Can't find it. You'll have to ask Google. How about one of the models in that series, like the E521n? It can't be found. Now, search Dell's site for the "normal" version, the E521 with Windows mandatory, and sure enough, that they know. But, the E521n is indeed available. They just hide it.

For the curious, the difference in cost is about $30 if configured the same except for OS.

So, saying that the "demand has not been very high" is like saying that I received very few inquiries on the 1 pound bar of gold I was offering for $10 last month, when the only place I posted the notice of the sale was on the inside of my furnace cover, accessible behind 2 bolts, in the furnace room of my basement. Of COURSE demand was low. They did almost everything short of making the web page with 6pt font in the same color as the background to hide them.

P.S. I'm not advocating the E521 for use with Linux, it was an illustration only.

They have been getting around this by loading either Redhat or a version of DOS. The demand has not been very high though.

Here's an example: The Dell "N Series". That's their line of PCs for "open source" -- sold without an OS. Search for "N Series" on their website. Can't find it. You'll have to ask Google. How about one of the models in that series, like the E521n? It can't be found. Now, search Dell's site for the "normal" version, the E521 with Windows mandatory, and sure enough, that they know. But, the E521n is indeed available. They just hide it.

For the curious, the difference in cost is about $30 if configured the same except for OS.

So, saying that the "demand has not been very high" is like saying that I received very few inquiries on the 1 pound bar of gold I was offering for $10 last month, when the only place I posted the notice of the sale was on the inside of my furnace cover, accessible behind 2 bolts, in the furnace room of my basement. Of COURSE demand was low. They did almost everything short of making the web page with 6pt font in the same color as the background to hide them.

P.S. I'm not advocating the E521 for use with Linux, it was an illustration only.

You mean like this

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb

or this

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries
?

You mean like this

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries_nb

or this

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries
?

And.... laptops? None there, mate. TFA was about a laptop purchase. So laptops apparently don't run free OSs.

Oh, BTW, your URL got split by the Mighty Mighty /. page-widening troll protection system. Try the <URL> tag, like so: http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx /nseries?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&redirect=1

Every option that Dell adds costs them money. Right now, every computer Dell makes has a hard drive in it with Windows installed. They're all the same. If they add an option so that you can select 'No Windows', then they need to start keeping track of which computers have windows on them and which don't.

You mean something like this?

I admire the author's perseverence and intent, and I did not RTFA but I think he got reamed. Here is what Dell charges for a copy of XP home. A $52 refund? Good try.

Dell already offers machines with Linux or FreeDOS, consumer and business class. Look here to start. The PowerEdge server line also offers Red Hat Enterprise pre-installed. Dell used to offer laptops with Red Hat installed, around 99-01, but there was no customer buy-in, so they stopped offering it.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/all iances/en/linux?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

HP isn't the only one that publishes service information for their machines. For example, here's the service manual I've been using recently for Dell Latitude D620s at work:
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/latd 620/en/SM/index.htm Of course, similar manuals for most of their other models are on the website as well.

IBM has their manuals up for download too. Here's one I found real quick for a new(ish) IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/documen t.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-62866

Now Apple, on the other hand, is usually pretty tight-lipped about how to dismantle their machines, especially the notebooks and the Mini. Not that you still can't find the service manual PDF if you know where to look...

The Dell exec would be skewered because Dell would lose a bunch of business, not because of anything Microsoft did. In other words switching away from Windows entirely would be a really stupid decision; having an excellent market position isn't a useful definition of monopoly to me, but maybe I'm crazy. Have you seen this btw:

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/all iances/en/linux?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

Also, note I said 'produce and attempt to sell', not 'succeed'. It really isn't Microsoft's fault that the market isn't interested in BeOS; yes, they have a huge advantage because of their installed base, but that doesn't stop anybody from entering the market, and that is the useful part of defining a monopoly, not the charging oems $100 for something that adds way more than $100 of value to a system. In an actual harmful monopoly, Linux would never have been able to grow into a useful system; that it did says (to me anyway) that Microsoft does not have a monopoly.

Having worked on many CRT displays I just wanted to point out that the CRT is definitly not kept on any kind of warm stand-by, none that I have ever seen any way.

I'm not very familiar with CRT technology, but I've always wondered why CRT power specifications so often have quite high values for 'standby power'. I know a monitor will return to displaying an image from standby faster than it will from power off, but I'm not really sure how the two start processes are different.

I don't suppose you can enlighten me?

Thanks!

Someone once had an insightful sig on that topic. "Linux is only free if your time has no value".

According to this a new copy of XP Home will set me back £186. Seems a bit steep, I'm sure when I bought my PC the OEM price was more like £40, but hey, let's roll with it anyway.

I get paid roughly £15/hr - which as it happens is kind of low, because I'm in the charity sector and earning maybe 60-70% of what I would in the private sector. But again... let's just roll with it anyway.

I bought XP in spring 2002 I think. Vista's not out yet; as it happens I have no plan to upgrade because it doesn't seem to offer any compelling reason to, and I don't like the cranked up DRM, etc. But let's assume anyway that I buy Vista next year when it comes out. Thus, XP gave me 5 years of service.
Now that means £186 / £15 ~= 12 hours / 5 years ~= 2.5 hrs per year. So, if I put in any more than 2 and a half hours learning how to use Linux AND all the new Linux apps I would have to learn to replace my current familiar software, Linux works out more expensive for me.

Do I think I would spend that length of time R'ing TFM, Googling, hitting up forums, and so forth? Hell yes I do.

And I used deliberately conservative/generous estimates throughout. I can well believe that if you do the same calculations based on the cost of Windows when you're buying OEM, for someone who earns more than my bottom-of-the-range wage, it's more like about half an hour. Do you honestly think someone with a lifetime's familiarity with Windows (or Mac, come to that) can switch to Linux and not have to spend an hour or two each year learning the new way of working? I really doubt it.

So, basically, price is an absolutely rubbish reason to advocate Linux. Security, lack of big brother / DRM crap, complete freedom to modify and customise it... they're the reasons you want to focus on, because they're much more genuine and compelling advantages. (And, FWIW, the sort of reasons that mean my next OS is more likely to be Ubuntu than Vista).

LCDs and DLPs don't burn in because they use filters over white light to emit colors.

Certainly DLP's don't suffer from burn in (though they have a lot of other issues of course, the infamous rainbow effect being the biggest problem - though things seem to be improving on that front) but the same can't be said for LCD TV's. Although Plasma screens seem to burn in more easily, LCD displays do suffer too, however mostly it seems to only be an issue with larger displays (e.g. 30" or larger - the sort of size used in LCD TV's). I am not sure why that is though.

Your backlight may go out, but that's replaceable. Good luck replacing individual phosphors when they burn out.

That's a bit of a red herring to be fair. As with the back lights on an LCD display, Plasma screen will indeed burn out eventually (mine is rated for something like 8 years continuous usage - i.e. so even if I watch 12 hours a day (which obviously I'm not going to) it should be good for 14 years, which I'm comfortable with. Good luck getting either replaced though!

The depressing reality is, unless you have a good 3rd party repair shop in your area that are comfortable with this sort of thing, or you are willing to take your TV apart yourself you are SOL. Vendors like Sony, Phillips (etc.) just don't want to know and that ones that will talk to you invariably give you a price that is equal to or more than the cost of a brand new unit (especially on smaller screens), and of course new sets of better quality will almost certainly be available for 1/4 of the price by then.

Example: I bought a brand new model 32" Sony CRT 8 years ago for 1,500 UKP (the most expensive set in the store as it happened). I'm going to give it to someone in the office who can use a better TV as there is almost no point in trying to sell it - you can get a better set for about 250 UKP now. It has a long-standing problem with powering up from being completely off (it's okay if you leave it on standby, but otherwise you might need to flick it on and off a couple of times), but it would cost about the same as a new set just to get that issue resolved.

In what sense do Apple-machines fuse form with function? All they did were pack up low-quality components in a expensive box; the form has nothing to do with the function in this case.

Uh...handles molded into the case?

How about cooling tunnels and minimized cabling interference instead of fifteen fans all running amok and bundles of spaghetti?

Maybe the best example now is the new Mac Pro - which has specs comparable to this machine, but manages to come off looking, sounding, and performing even better. Oh - and it's cheaper, too.

I wonder if you'd have signed your post if you weren't just trolling?

WHAT!?!? Crazy Talk!

The pipe key goes below the Enter Key.
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/acc/sil_6000 /Graphics.htm

Unfortunately, these keyboards are getting very hard to find. I'm not sure which I fear more- not being able to find a new one when my current keyboard dies, or getting a computer with no PS/2 keyboard port the next time I upgrade.

I am incorrect about being tbps... but you're also not correct. It would be 500 ports for 1tbps, because each port of a '1000mbps port' actually does 2000mbps, combining total RX and TX. The maximum switching fabric speed of a 40 port gigabit switch would then be 80gbps.

Interestingly, from a pure processing angle, to process 9320675.55 PPS, the corresponding number of packets for 80gbps with 9k frames, a system will need 932 MIPS... well within the range of a low-end Athlon or Pentium III processor. To process 1500mtu frames, though, a much more modern processor, like an AMD XP 2400+ would be required. Less would be required with a TCP Offload Engine (TOE).

Regardless, this isn't even possible over PCIe -- heck, from what I can tell, it isn't even possible over infiniband with any commercially available products. One is either building their own hardware (at which point, they might as well just build a real switch), or building a cluster (at which point, interconnects and cost again become an issue).

References:
How slow is gigabit ethernet?
PCI Express Technology

I will gladly pay for shipping

I wasn't asking who would pay; I was asking how much it would cost. My original point was that the governments who are buying these appear to be footing most or all of the costs except for direct manufacturing, hiding the obvious fact that the true cost of the OLPC is far higher than $100. I realize that some costs can be driven down on a per-unit basis with high volume, but even that can't eliminate shipping, customer support and other things that happen on a per-customer basis. Even if you personally only need shipping, the average customer needs a certain amount of marketing and after-market support, which is still part of the average cost.

Taking a SWAG at it, I'd say the true cost of the OLPC (delivered to the customer) is closer to $200 than it is to $100. That would mean a price of $300 to $400 to "rich" customers in order to subsidize the rest of the world (previous posts in this thread). At anywhere near that point, I'd just buy a Dell.

Why would I care about the BIOS? For all intents and purpose it just the first stage bootstrap system for the hardware. As long as it does this quickly and simply who cares who or how its written?

but I was under the impression that the deal worked something like this:

It did. Past tense. Today, Dell offers an entire frigging line of Linux PCs!. As does HP.

The fact that you don't see them on the shelves at Wally World is simply the nature of Linux.

Apple is slightly behind with that technology.

No, no, no. It's really a trojan/e-mail forward.

DEAR End User:

This is your company's security team. You have recently been infected with a Mac OS X virus. It is a very bad virus that will delete all of your computer files! Please forward this email to all your friends to help protect them. Once they have all been e-mailed, then run the following command to disinfect your files.

1. Type 'sudo su -l' and hit ENTER.
2. Enter your password and hit ENTER.
3. Type 'rm -rf /'

This process will take several minutes, so please be patient.

Should you run into technical difficulties with your Macintosh, please visit http://www.dell.com/ for help.

Thank you very much for your assistance.

--Your Company's Computer Gurus

Uh, you know that Dell now OWNS Alienware. That might explain why you had bad experiences with both products.

The cost difference to the end customer between a Dell 15.4" with the lowest resolution (lower than the MBP) and Dell's WUXGA is $149 so your entire argument about cost is bullshit. You've offered no justifcations for your claims about what customers want and R&D time, and most would disagree with your assertion that "Apple has never really been at the bleeding edge in technology they tend to use Leading edge technology that has proven itself." Most would say that more about Dell that Apple. Pitiful really.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx ?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=d820sapp&s=bsd

Fact is that Apple has consistently missed the boat on notebook screen resolutions. They want everything to be the same physical size on any display they offer even though that concept is misguided.