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Re:Hmm.... by khallow · 2016-10-14 02:44 · Score: 1 · on Scientists Unveil Plans For First Space Nation 'Asgardia,' Open Citizenship Applications (theguardian.com)

But the same happens to humans all the time, that's the point of the analogy. In industry it creates the "everybody is evil" problem - where anybody who is NOT willing to do evil cannot compete and soon only evildoing companies are left.

Unless, of course, doing evil is disadvantageous. Then they don't do that. Worker salary is a classic example. From the employer's point of view, paying nothing for work would be ideal. But then they don't get any labor and hence, can't compete.

And yes, regulation is a well known way to prevent such things. It also is a well know way to create such situations.

A classic example from the industrial revolution. 19th century, England - standard practise of factory owners is to regularly rape (of the 'fuck me or your fired' variety) female staff as a way of maintaining worker discipline. A great many of those factory owners kept diaries. They all confess to engaging in the practise, all write that they find it abhorent and then proceed to say 'but because others do it, if I do not do it as well then my workers will be less productive, I cannot compete and I'd be out of business". Every one of them blames all the others for being evil and thereby forcing him to be evil as well. That's the human version of it.

Welcome to Victorian era porn. You do realize there is a difference between fiction and reality right?

>My point here is that the "competition is bad" idea is an entirely subjective judgment.

But nobody made that argument. Nobody said 'competition is bad'. Strawman. I merely said that competition is not universally good, it's outcomes are not universally ideal. It's not some utopian panacea. It can be good, and it can be evil, which it is depends entirely on the specific context being evaluated. Sometimes competition is good, sometimes it's bad, but you can't assume the former is always true - or even mostly true.

And you do so by using an example of an monopsony with trees instead of people. We've already known about monopsonies for a long time and how it's great for the controller (and frequently the members) of the monopsony, but not great for anyone else. The "always privatization" side always knows of these examples. The "do evil" example is better though not everyone is going to agree that the activities in question are evil or encouraged by competition.

Another thing here is that in the real world, the "sometimes competition is bad" argument gets used way out of scale with the problems it's supposed to address. For example, Franklin Roosevelt said in defense of the National Industrial Recovery Act which among other constitutional violations, created a variety of industry and labor cartels:

No employer and no group of less than all employers in a single trade could do this alone and continue to live in business competition. But if all employers in each trade now band themselves faithfully in these modern guilds--without exception- and agree to act together and at once, none will be hurt and millions of workers, so long deprived of the right to earn their bread in the sweat of their labor, can raise their heads again. The challenge of this law is whether we can sink selfish interest and present a solid front against a common peril.

and

It is, further, a challenge to administration. We are relaxing some of the safeguards of the anti-trust laws. The public must be protected against the abuses that led to their enactment, and to this end, we are putting in place of old principles of unchecked competition some new Government controls. They must, above all, be impartial and just. Their purpose is to free business, not to shackle it; and no man who stands on the constructive, forward-looking side of his industry has an

Standards at one level may promote diversity above by Paul+Fernhout · 2014-11-03 08:52 · Score: 2 · on China Plans To Build a Domestic Robotics Industry

According to Manuel De Landa: http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/me...
"Indeed, one must resist the temptation to make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only because, as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but because in real life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these cannot be established through theory alone but demand concrete experimentation. Certain standardizations, say, of electric outlet designs or of data-structures traveling through the Internet, may actually turn out to promote heterogenization at another level, in terms of the appliances that may be designed around the standard outlet, or of the services that a common data-structure may make possible. On the other hand, the mere presence of increased heterogeneity is no guarantee that a better state for society has been achieved. After all, the territory occupied by former Yugoslavia is more heterogeneous now than it was ten years ago, but the lack of uniformity at one level simply hides an increase of homogeneity at the level of the warring ethnic communities. But even if we managed to promote not only heterogeneity, but diversity articulated into a meshwork, that still would not be a perfect solution. After all, meshworks grow by drift and they may drift to places where we do not want to go. The goal-directedness of hierarchies is the kind of property that we may desire to keep at least for certain institutions. Hence, demonizing centralization and glorifying decentralization as the solution to all our problems would be wrong. An open and experimental attitude towards the question of different hybrids and mixtures is what the complexity of reality itself seems to call for. "

So, for example, if some centrally planned bureaucracy (say the USA in the 1930s) decides to have a nation-wide arts program, then you might see a lot of creativity there.
http://americanart.si.edu/exhi...
"In 1934, Americans grappled with an economic situation that feels all too familiar today. Against the backdrop of the Great Depression, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt's administration created the Public Works of Art Project--the first federal government program to support the arts nationally. Federal officials in the 1930s understood how essential art was to sustaining America's spirit. Artists from across the United States who participated in the program, which lasted only six months from mid-December 1933 to June 1934, were encouraged to depict "the American Scene." The Public Works of Art Project not only paid artists to embellish public buildings, but also provided them with a sense of pride in serving their country. They painted regional, recognizable subjects--ranging from portraits to cityscapes and images of city life to landscapes and depictions of rural life--that reminded the public of quintessential American values such as hard work, community and optimism."

Or about photography:
http://www.livinghistoryfarm.o...

Or other ways:
http://newdeal.feri.org/nchs/l...
"Activity in the arts was one aspect of the Works Progress Administration (WPA). Established in April 1935 and directed by Harry Hopkins, its purpose was to provide socially useful work for the unemployed. WPA programs included the construction of public buildings such as schools, hospitals and courthouses; highways; recreational facilities such as athletic fields and parks and playgrounds; and conservation facilities such as fish hatcheries and bird sanctuaries. In addition four WPA arts projects ("Federal One") were established. "Federal One" not only provided work for artists, writers, musicians, and actors but nurtured young men and women who were embarking on a career in the arts during the Great Depression. Writers and artists such as Ralph Ellison and J

Re:City dwellers and suburbanites might not... by ColdWetDog · 2010-07-24 05:01 · Score: 4, Interesting · on Adapting the Post Office To the Digital Age

realize this, but there's still a whole lot of people who live out in the country and small rural towns where the population density isn't high enough for UPS, FedEx and broadband to be profitable enough to serve these citizens.

True enough, but then you have to frame the argument as a social issue. Is it a desirable social end for people in rural areas to have services that cannot be developed economically by the 'regular' market? Traditionally (pretty much since the inception of the US) it was felt that subsidizing mail to everyone was worth the cost as it help expand the country and thus the market. In the 1930's the rural electrification expanded AC power to the hinterlands, again as an effort to improve the economy of these areas (and as part of the New Deal).

So the argument really boils down to whether or not it is worth it in a societal sense to subsidize postal service for rural populations. Of course, then you get to the literally hundreds of cross subsidies that the US (and likely every other government) gives for everything from peanuts to gasoline.

Then my eyes glaze over and my head asplode.

Re:Well yeah... by mfnickster · 2009-04-29 06:19 · Score: 1 · on US ISPs Using Push Polling To Stop Cheap Internet

When the big power companies balked at wiring the countryside for electricity, the government formed cooperatives to get the job done, as part of the New Deal.
http://newdeal.feri.org/tva/tva10.htm

In the '20s, the average American family spent 25%-30% of its income on food. Nowadays it's about 10%.

I'm sure you won't argue that the investment, and the subsequent increase in agricultural production, were not beneficial to the country as a whole?

Re:Oceans, Not Rivers by maxume · 2008-11-23 07:03 · Score: 1 · on Harnessing Slow Water Currents For Renewable Energy

http://newdeal.feri.org/acts/us07.htm

Re: voting out govt. by Anonymous Coward · 2005-05-27 14:13 · Score: 0 · on Citywide Fiber Project Challenges and Goals

You're right, private industry always does it better.

Let's take the example of "private" electricity providers.

Rural electrification - http://newdeal.feri.org/tva/tva10.htm

Damn that FDR (and others). Messing in private industry. Eventually those people living in areas where the population wasn't dense enough to support high profit electric service would have crawled out from under their rocks and moved to the top 100 metropolitan areas like God intended them to.

Fuck the Fuckin' South by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-12 12:02 · Score: 0, Troll · on Outsourcing To Rural America

Fuck the south. Fuck 'em. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. But no, we had to kill half a million people so they'd stay part of our special Union. Fighting for the right to keep slaves - yeah, those are states we want to keep.

And now what do we get? We're the fucking Arrogant Northeast Liberal Elite? How about this for arrogant: the South is the Real America? The Authentic America. Really?

Cause we fucking founded this country, assholes. Those Founding Fathers you keep going on and on about? All that bullshit about what you think they meant by the Second Amendment giving you the right to keep your assault weapons in the glove compartment because you didn't bother to read the first half of the fucking sentence? Who do you think those wig-wearing lacy-shirt sporting revolutionaries were? They were fucking blue-staters, dickhead. Boston? Philadelphia? New York? Hello? Think there might be a reason all the fucking monuments are up here in our backyard?

No, No. Get the fuck out. We're not letting you visit the Liberty Bell and fucking Plymouth Rock anymore until you get over your real American selves and start respecting those other nine amendments. Who do you think those fucking stripes on the flag are for? Nine are for fucking blue states. And it would be 10 if those Vermonters had gotten their fucking Subarus together and broken off from New York a little earlier. Get it? We started this shit, so don't get all uppity about how real you are you Johnny-come-lately Oooooh I've been a state for almost a hundred years dickheads. Fuck off.

Arrogant? You wanna talk about us Northeasterners being fucking arrogant? What's more American than arrogance? Hmmm? Maybe horsies? I don't think so. Arrogance is the fucking cornerstone of what it means to be American. And I wouldn't be so fucking arrogant if I wasn't paying for your fucking bridges, bitch.

All those Federal taxes you love to hate? It all comes from us and goes to you, so shut up and enjoy your fucking Tennessee Valley Authority electricity and your fancy highways that we paid for. And the next time Florida gets hit by a hurricane you can come crying to us if you want to, but you're the ones who built on a fucking swamp. Let the Spanish keep it, it's a shithole, we said, but you had to have your fucking orange juice.

The next dickwad who says, It's your money, not the government's money is gonna get their ass kicked. Nine of the ten states that get the most federal fucking dollars and pay the least ... can you guess? Go on, guess. That's right, motherfucker, they're red states. And eight of the ten states that receive the least and pay the most? It's too easy, asshole, they're blue states. It's not your money, assholes, it's fucking our money. What was that Real American Value you were spouting a minute ago? Self reliance? Try this for self reliance: buy your own fucking stop signs, assholes.

Let's talk about those values for a fucking minute. You and your Southern values can bite my ass because the blue states got the values over you fucking Real Americans every day of the goddamn week. Which state do you think has the lowest divorce rate you marriage-hyping dickwads? Well? Can you guess? It's fucking Massachusetts, the fucking center of t

I love Apple, but fuck the south! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-12 11:19 · Score: -1, Troll · on NeXTSTEP To Mac OS X

Fuck the South. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. But no, we had to kill half a million people so they'd stay part of our special Union. Fighting for the right to keep slaves - yeah, those are states we want to keep.

And now what do we get? We're the fucking Arrogant Northeast Liberal Elite? How about this for arrogant: the South is the Real America? The Authentic America. Really?

Cause we fucking founded this country, assholes. Those Founding Fathers you keep going on and on about? All that bullshit about what you think they meant by the Second Amendment giving you the right to keep your assault weapons in the glove compartment because you didn't bother to read the first half of the fucking sentence? Who do you think those wig-wearing lacy-shirt sporting revolutionaries were? They were fucking blue-staters, dickhead. Boston? Philadelphia? New York? Hello? Think there might be a reason all the fucking monuments are up here in our backyard?

No, No. Get the fuck out. We're not letting you visit the Liberty Bell and fucking Plymouth Rock anymore until you get over your real American selves and start respecting those other nine amendments. Who do you think those fucking stripes on the flag are for? Nine are for fucking blue states. And it would be 10 if those Vermonters had gotten their fucking Subarus together and broken off from New York a little earlier. Get it? We started this shit, so don't get all uppity about how real you are you Johnny-come-lately Oooooh I've been a state for almost a hundred years dickheads. Fuck off.

Arrogant? You wanna talk about us Northeasterners being fucking arrogant? What's more American than arrogance? Hmmm? Maybe horsies? I don't think so. Arrogance is the fucking cornerstone of what it means to be American. And I wouldn't be so fucking arrogant if I wasn't paying for your fucking bridges, bitch.

All those Federal taxes you love to hate? It all comes from us and goes to you, so shut up and enjoy your fucking Tennessee Valley Authority electricity and your fancy highways that we paid for. And the next time Florida gets hit by a hurricane you can come crying to us if you want to, but you're the ones who built on a fucking swamp. Let the Spanish keep it, it's a shithole, we said, but you had to have your fucking orange juice.

The next dickwad who says, It's your money, not the government's money is gonna get their ass kicked. Nine of the ten states that get the most federal fucking dollars and pay the least... can you guess? Go on, guess. That's right, motherfucker, they're red states. And eight of the ten states that receive the least and pay the most? It's too easy, asshole, they're blue states. It's not your money, assholes, it's fucking our money. What was that Real American Value you were spouting a minute ago? Self reliance? Try this for self reliance: buy your own fucking stop signs, assholes.

Let's talk about those values for a fucking minute. You and your Southern values can bite my ass because the blue states got the values over you fucking Real Americans every day of the goddamn week. Which state do you think has the lowest divorce rate you marriage-hyping dickwads? Well? Can you guess? It's fucking Massachusetts, the fucking center of the gay marria

I care you insensitive clod! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-11 20:12 · Score: -1, Troll · on Siemens Sells Skype Adapters For Wireless Phones