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Domain: helixcommunity.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to helixcommunity.org.
Comments · 279
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Documentation on the siteThere's plenty of documentation on the site, you just have to know where to look (and we're working on making it easier to get to). I really don't think it would be possible to put together a compelling end-user multimedia application with what you dub the "UNIX/Linux" approach (literally using small command line programs). Could you point to a successful end-user multimedia application that does?
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bad designI think the design of software like Helix DNA is just driven by bad habits originating on the Windows platform.
If you look at the capabilities of Helix DNA, they would be much better provided by a set of small, specific command line programs, filters, network tools, and CGI programs. It would be much easier to reuse those tools for other purposes, to create new plug-ins, etc.
Instead, what we seem to be getting (but it's hard to tell because there is almost no documentation on the site), is some big, monolithic program with "plug-ins", which probably ends up being hard to extend, hard to modify, and hard to reuse.
People should really kick the cross-platform habit. The UNIX/Linux approach to building large software systems and servers out of small command line programs is better than the Windows approach. Having junk designed for Windows ported to Linux is not the right approach and fails to take advantage of the strenghts of the Linux platform.
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bad designI think the design of software like Helix DNA is just driven by bad habits originating on the Windows platform.
If you look at the capabilities of Helix DNA, they would be much better provided by a set of small, specific command line programs, filters, network tools, and CGI programs. It would be much easier to reuse those tools for other purposes, to create new plug-ins, etc.
Instead, what we seem to be getting (but it's hard to tell because there is almost no documentation on the site), is some big, monolithic program with "plug-ins", which probably ends up being hard to extend, hard to modify, and hard to reuse.
People should really kick the cross-platform habit. The UNIX/Linux approach to building large software systems and servers out of small command line programs is better than the Windows approach. Having junk designed for Windows ported to Linux is not the right approach and fails to take advantage of the strenghts of the Linux platform.
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Distribution and Support
From reading this FAQ, it appears that there is no problem with packaging this in a distribution (RH 8.1 w/ Helix?). However, I was unable to find a detailed list of supported codecs. I saw that it supported Real, and Ogg, but what I mean is, How does it compare to Real One Player (Currently not available for linux). Version 8 is the latest I think.
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Re:How about the server?
Our server will be released early next year. It's in the FAQ.
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Huge Mac OS X annoyanceAccording to the tool requirements, you have to use CodeWarrior Pro 8 to build the client on Mac OS X. I bet that means they depend on PowerPlant.
Still, that's $600 more than gcc and/or ProjectBuilder, and $600 more than I'm willing to spend to participate in an open-source project.
realinvalidname
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Most of the Codecs are Still Binary!
Most of the codecs are still binary, the ones that there's actually source included for are ones that we've already had for a while. All we've gotten is another media player shell..
https://www.helixcommunity.org/2002/intro/client
c'mon only MP3 and H.263? weak! -
Interesting.
Also interesting is the ad I just saw for Helix(RealPlayer) and their version of Open Source code. Here's the link.
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TurboPlay(TM) technology?
The Helix DNA Client web page (https://www.helixcommunity.org/content/tech/clie
n t.html) says that the client will include "TurboPlay":
The Helix DNA client will include TurboPlay(TM) technology. Through TurboPlay, broadband PC users get near-instant playback of streaming audio and video. TurboPlay dramatically reduces the time it takes to load or "buffer" a clip prior to playback by intelligently utilizing available bandwidth on a broadband connection, typically achieving more than five times the speed of previous streaming systems.
Does anyone have any idea what bandwidth maximizing strategy they are actually using? What are they doing here that is actually original?
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Re:This is RealMany great observations by mcc. A few notes here:
- Be careful what you wish for with MPEG-4, however...
- I share your desire for RTSP world domination
- We will be announcing new terms for RealAudio and RealVideo in our October 29 webcast. However, I wouldn't get too excited about some of the possible applications you mention (sorry, I can't be any more specific than that for now). The bottom line is that RealAudio and RealVideo will not be available under the RPSL. I know from talking to Richard Stallman about that that he's not pleased with that. However, he was pleased to hear about our support for Ogg Vorbis (which is progressing nicely).
- There are benefits to us not giving away everything. The biggest benefit is that RealNetworks stays motivated to invest heavily in this technology. Because we've got a clear commercial motivation to stay ahead on the technology curve, we're not going to merely lob this over to the open source community and say "here, you deal with it". We absolutely intend to ensure the Helix media engine remains state-of-the-art. (Of course, don't take this to mean that we don't need the community; we do.)
Rob Lanphier
Helix Community Coordinator -
This is RealWhy did you not mention that this is RealMedia/RealNetworks? (Whatever their name is this month.) That's a pretty big deal. This little paragraph here seems like an even bigger deal, if they actually mean it and aren't just engaging in demagogery to win our hearts over or something-- that seems like a complete 180 from RealNetworks' previous violently-propeitary stance
I was about to post a comment saying "Okay, this is interesting, there's some project that is going to try to make a cross-platform media player, that's a nice goal, and great for linux users, but Quicktime already does anything i want it to. What can this do Quicktime can't?"
Anyway, i'm really curious how much they'll commit themselves to this. I can at least tell they are still going to keep their crown jewels-- the RealAudio/Realvideo codecs-- to themselves-- from the faq:What parts of your platform are not being licensed?
Meh. Still, though, even if the codecs are going to be black boxes in this Helix system, how close to them can you get? In the past, as far as i can tell, Real has always licensed its realmedia-embedding APIs such that anyone who gets to use them has to agree they will never use those APIs to create a program that will convert from Real into some other format. But if they're open-sourcing a media system that plugs into the realmedia codecs, then that would imply that it would be relatively easy to create something like a RealVideo streamripper, or a RealAudio-to-mp3 converter. Are they going to try to prevent this? How? Does the license give them the ability to do this? (I'm really sorry, but i haven't even attempted to read those licenses yet. As you can tell from my frightful spelling, i just woke up, and there's no way i will be able to parse legalese right now.) The FAQ says their license is "like" the GPL, but says it has different patent language (unsurprisingly) and says something confusing about "folding back" code that sounds vaguely NPLish.. I will be VERY interested to see what RMS' comments on it are.
Almost every part of our system is available for licensing. Some parts of the system, such as the RealAudio and RealVideo codecs, require commercial licenses that are different than community licensing. We are streamlining the licensing of our codecs to spread their ubiquity. Also, the Media Commerce Suite, the Broadcast Management System (BMS) and the subscription system leveraged by RealOne SuperPass are not part of our community source or open source initiatives at this time.
Anyway, this should go somewhere interesting. It would be nice if MPEG4 over RTSP could become the worldwide streaming media standard, but RealVideo with an open-source media platform wrapped around it wouldn't be *too* bad. At the least y'all linux people might finally get a *REAL* generic media layer API -
This is RealWhy did you not mention that this is RealMedia/RealNetworks? (Whatever their name is this month.) That's a pretty big deal. This little paragraph here seems like an even bigger deal, if they actually mean it and aren't just engaging in demagogery to win our hearts over or something-- that seems like a complete 180 from RealNetworks' previous violently-propeitary stance
I was about to post a comment saying "Okay, this is interesting, there's some project that is going to try to make a cross-platform media player, that's a nice goal, and great for linux users, but Quicktime already does anything i want it to. What can this do Quicktime can't?"
Anyway, i'm really curious how much they'll commit themselves to this. I can at least tell they are still going to keep their crown jewels-- the RealAudio/Realvideo codecs-- to themselves-- from the faq:What parts of your platform are not being licensed?
Meh. Still, though, even if the codecs are going to be black boxes in this Helix system, how close to them can you get? In the past, as far as i can tell, Real has always licensed its realmedia-embedding APIs such that anyone who gets to use them has to agree they will never use those APIs to create a program that will convert from Real into some other format. But if they're open-sourcing a media system that plugs into the realmedia codecs, then that would imply that it would be relatively easy to create something like a RealVideo streamripper, or a RealAudio-to-mp3 converter. Are they going to try to prevent this? How? Does the license give them the ability to do this? (I'm really sorry, but i haven't even attempted to read those licenses yet. As you can tell from my frightful spelling, i just woke up, and there's no way i will be able to parse legalese right now.) The FAQ says their license is "like" the GPL, but says it has different patent language (unsurprisingly) and says something confusing about "folding back" code that sounds vaguely NPLish.. I will be VERY interested to see what RMS' comments on it are.
Almost every part of our system is available for licensing. Some parts of the system, such as the RealAudio and RealVideo codecs, require commercial licenses that are different than community licensing. We are streamlining the licensing of our codecs to spread their ubiquity. Also, the Media Commerce Suite, the Broadcast Management System (BMS) and the subscription system leveraged by RealOne SuperPass are not part of our community source or open source initiatives at this time.
Anyway, this should go somewhere interesting. It would be nice if MPEG4 over RTSP could become the worldwide streaming media standard, but RealVideo with an open-source media platform wrapped around it wouldn't be *too* bad. At the least y'all linux people might finally get a *REAL* generic media layer API -
This is RealWhy did you not mention that this is RealMedia/RealNetworks? (Whatever their name is this month.) That's a pretty big deal. This little paragraph here seems like an even bigger deal, if they actually mean it and aren't just engaging in demagogery to win our hearts over or something-- that seems like a complete 180 from RealNetworks' previous violently-propeitary stance
I was about to post a comment saying "Okay, this is interesting, there's some project that is going to try to make a cross-platform media player, that's a nice goal, and great for linux users, but Quicktime already does anything i want it to. What can this do Quicktime can't?"
Anyway, i'm really curious how much they'll commit themselves to this. I can at least tell they are still going to keep their crown jewels-- the RealAudio/Realvideo codecs-- to themselves-- from the faq:What parts of your platform are not being licensed?
Meh. Still, though, even if the codecs are going to be black boxes in this Helix system, how close to them can you get? In the past, as far as i can tell, Real has always licensed its realmedia-embedding APIs such that anyone who gets to use them has to agree they will never use those APIs to create a program that will convert from Real into some other format. But if they're open-sourcing a media system that plugs into the realmedia codecs, then that would imply that it would be relatively easy to create something like a RealVideo streamripper, or a RealAudio-to-mp3 converter. Are they going to try to prevent this? How? Does the license give them the ability to do this? (I'm really sorry, but i haven't even attempted to read those licenses yet. As you can tell from my frightful spelling, i just woke up, and there's no way i will be able to parse legalese right now.) The FAQ says their license is "like" the GPL, but says it has different patent language (unsurprisingly) and says something confusing about "folding back" code that sounds vaguely NPLish.. I will be VERY interested to see what RMS' comments on it are.
Almost every part of our system is available for licensing. Some parts of the system, such as the RealAudio and RealVideo codecs, require commercial licenses that are different than community licensing. We are streamlining the licensing of our codecs to spread their ubiquity. Also, the Media Commerce Suite, the Broadcast Management System (BMS) and the subscription system leveraged by RealOne SuperPass are not part of our community source or open source initiatives at this time.
Anyway, this should go somewhere interesting. It would be nice if MPEG4 over RTSP could become the worldwide streaming media standard, but RealVideo with an open-source media platform wrapped around it wouldn't be *too* bad. At the least y'all linux people might finally get a *REAL* generic media layer API -
Stay tuned, big guy
In less than two days, the code will be released to the public !
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But what is it? (Other than vaporware!)The slashdot head article gave me no idea what "Helix DNA" could possibly be, so I go the Helix Home page and find out that it claims to do everything for everybody on every platform.
But there's nothing to download right now.
What does it actually do right now? Sounds like vaporware to me! To treat it as anything but pie-in-the-sky fantasy is a great disservice to all the things that actually exist right now...
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ASP LoopholeThis issue, I believe, is referred to as the ASP (Application Service Provider) loophole, and, I think, is supposed to be addressed in the next version of the GPL. This is one of the reasons RealNetworks is releasing parts of their Helix Platform under the RPSL, as explained in this NewsForge article.
Corrections gladly accepted.
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And the word from the streaming tech. companies isWith Real pushing their Helix technologies and Apple with their Darwin I'd be interested to hear what companies in the streaming world feel about this.
Higher start-up and running costs mean less people using their technologies.
Of course I'd prefer to use Icecast but Real and Apple have far more cash to fight this than the Xiph crew.
Phil
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Re:Open Source wins again
RealNetworks will be releasing the Helix DNA client software as open source in 88 days. This represents a media engine that can be used to build streaming media players. Today's announcement means that Ogg Vorbis support should be ready in time for RealNetworks' own open source release. For more details, visit the Helix Web site! We're interested in collecting input on Helix and what we can do to work better with the open source community.
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Real*
I'm sure others may have commented on this, but WHY dear god create another license, or two in this case? Netscape did this with Mozilla and is still looking for four hackers so that the codebase can be complete relicensed using an NPL/GPL/LGPL "triple license".
History of the hatred of Real: http://pms.colonpee.com/irc/realplayer.txt
Will this turn out great in a couple years like Mozilla? I hope so, but I doubt it. -
Re:All I care to know is
Pieces? "Aye, now there's the rub"
Looking at the server page, it's hardly ready to go. Note the open server page mentions nothing about streaming Windows media, QuickTime, MPEG2 or 4, simply Real. All it seems to support is RTSP/RTP/RTCP/SDP. No MMS support? Well that's kind of useless then, as it the lack of HTTP streaming support.
Believe me I'd love to have a central streaming system, my business is all based on streaming, but forgive me for not expecting much from a company that releases what has to be the worse media player, which drops advertising icons on your desktop and hides it's advertising engine by calling it evntsvc.exe, and which drops the start up code back into the registry each time you remove it.
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Analysing license...I am not a lawyer or good at legal things. But when I read the license, it seemed like GPL w/ advertisement. (Except for a Real network clause)
- You have to keep all the "propitary notices"
- You have to make all your source available under this license. If you distribute binary only then, you must give a way to download the source
- Also you allow Realnetworks use your code any way they want
- You cannot restrict any derived work's license.
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Analysing license...I am not a lawyer or good at legal things. But when I read the license, it seemed like GPL w/ advertisement. (Except for a Real network clause)
- You have to keep all the "propitary notices"
- You have to make all your source available under this license. If you distribute binary only then, you must give a way to download the source
- Also you allow Realnetworks use your code any way they want
- You cannot restrict any derived work's license.
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Warning : Misinformation Troll
As another poster has pointed out, the Real Player License allows any contributor to retain exclusive rights to their contributions in section 11. The parent post is a Misinformation Troll; do not feed.
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Re:All I care to know is
The license itself is here, if you are too lazy to look for it.
I just read through the license, and really I don't see anything that restrictive or unusual here. It seems to hold to the spirit of OSS; namely, that you can modify & release your modifications to your hearts content, and they can do the same. I don't see anything where they can release your modifications under a different license. Any release of modified code would fall under the license itself, which prohibits releasing non-open code. So, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this looks pretty legit. -
URLs, URLs, URLs...
The actual Helix press release
and, for developers, the Helix Commmunity site, where the source code release dates are posted. -
Real's web Site for this release opens.See helxicommunity.org
Bruce
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The LicenseRead the RealNetworks Public Source License (RPSL) and RealNetworks Community Source License (RCSL) here at the Helix Community website. Quote "This license will be submitted to the Open Source Initiative for certification as an open source license. We believe it follows the Open Source Definition. It contains some "copyleft" provisions along the lines of the GPL, but also clears up patent issues and allows contributed changes to be put back into the pool for the entire community."
We'll see...
Trying to understand the conference which is streaming now... but it's hard to listen trough the market-speak...
Overall, I'm feeling excited, not sure why.. but it's something new... refreshing
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The LicenseRead the RealNetworks Public Source License (RPSL) and RealNetworks Community Source License (RCSL) here at the Helix Community website. Quote "This license will be submitted to the Open Source Initiative for certification as an open source license. We believe it follows the Open Source Definition. It contains some "copyleft" provisions along the lines of the GPL, but also clears up patent issues and allows contributed changes to be put back into the pool for the entire community."
We'll see...
Trying to understand the conference which is streaming now... but it's hard to listen trough the market-speak...
Overall, I'm feeling excited, not sure why.. but it's something new... refreshing
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Re:All I care to know is
The open source pieces will be released under the RealNetworks Public Source License (RPSL). We have posted the license on the Helix site at http://www.helixcommunity.org. We will be sending it to the OSI for certification shortly, and we're looking for feedback now.
