Slashdot Mirror

Bricks can be fixed with JTAG; if you have to outright replace the hardware, that's fried, toasted, nuked. (How the HELL does software do something THAT bad, anyway? Even flashing a ROM for an entirely incorrect model on a smartphone is still technically reparable..)

http://www.hungry.com/~jamie/hacktest.text

0133 Ever fix a hardware problem in software?
0134 ... Vice versa?

...

0141 Ever physically destroy equipment from software?

Petter Reinholdtsen of Debian Edu/Skolelinux fame will have a lot of useful no-nonsense suggestions. Contact information at http://www.hungry.com/~pere/ .

Java is already fragmented. The result of open sourcing Java will actually be consolidation, i.e. killing of competing VMs. And a huge open source test suite will greatly benefit all surviving JVMs, which is a good thing.

How can you not see this?

Javas problem is not that it might get fragmented, the problem is that it IS fragmented. Do something about it! Let Java free!

The obvious answer is that the employees of the school will be there during school hours... making the search a lot easier.

Just to throw this out there.. from this story, we know the warrant has two options for when the search will take place:
1) In the Daytime, from 6am-10pm
2) At any time day or night as I find reasonable cause has been established.

The judge would not permit the nighttime search. To make sure you have enough time, you would want to start the search early in the day. And for a copyright infringement case, why make the FBI work weekends? During the school day is the obvious choice - but you could schedule it for a day the students were gone, maybe wait until summer.

So why is it going to succeed where these failed? :
fresco
YAX (Y Ain't X)
The Y Window System
Oh never mind. What's the point?

FYI, Chris Toshok (toshok), the person who wrote up this experience is also one of the head programmers on Ximian's Evolution mail client.

It's an obvious name for an X successor, of course, but there is (well, was) a Y Windowing System in development by the Hungry Progammers

and the Y in the hungry programmers window system is actually a cyrillic character and it's pronounced completely different.

Unfortunately, the name Y Window System has already been taken by the Hungry Programmers. Still, Z is probably free :-P.

People should know that there has been at least one project called "Y Window System" already (Not to mention W and Z...):

Here, 1998 vintage

There was also the YY window system. but that's long dead - 1992 era.

I agree 100%.

go here if you have javascript enabled. This guy is not very fond of javascript!

Followup:

This page opens up a BBC java nav bar, which, according to the java security model, should not be able to. I tested this with MSIE for Mac, and the bar was not loaded. Mozilla Firebird for OSX also loads the applet (im)properly

When can we expect Y Windows to be released?

Not for a while. The web site has not been updated since 1998.

rjrjr

rjrjr

rjrjr

rjrjr

everything I have is at http://www.hungry.com/~shaver/gropt.tar.bz2 but it's not for the faint of heart, and I don't have time to talk people through it.

Back in late 1998 lwn ran a status report of GNU Rope by Nat:

What is the status?

The link-time optimizer is fully working, benchmarks indicate 30% less memory usage, and it is better than twice as fast on many machines.

The ordering algorithms need tuning. The post-link optimizer needs debugging. It will be released soon:

http://grope.net.org/

This question made me quite curious as well. A google search just results in lots of postings asking "Where'd it go?"

There's also a paper and some slides. So, I'll reiterate the question... where'd it go?

This question made me quite curious as well. A google search just results in lots of postings asking "Where'd it go?"

There's also a paper and some slides. So, I'll reiterate the question... where'd it go?

No, please, not another windowing system. X11 is fine for most purposes and, if you need something is does not provide, write an extension. There are more than enough 'alternatives' that are either designed for niches, have never been finished or will never get a significant marekt share. They don't have any significant advantage, at least as a general window system, and they lack applications. And despite those people who claim that X11 is sooo bloated (usually because they see the memory usage and do not realize that most of the memory is taken by pixmaps that won't take less space in other solutions) there are proofs like TinyX and WeirdX.

Y appears to be quite dead. The only X replacement I've recently seen activity of is Berlin for which Debian packages are now available.

There is actually already a windowing system called Y windows.

find it here

X isn't going to be replaced anytime soon. It doesn't really need to be either... Xprotocol was designed to be added to and updated, it's just that people haven't had the motivation to do it until recently.

Behold: the Y Window System. Check out the overview. It shows promise, but then, we've been saying that about Berlin for years now.

Behold: the Y Window System. Check out the overview. It shows promise, but then, we've been saying that about Berlin for years now.

Check it out.

No, I'm pretty certain that Y was a replacement for X (Window, that is). Hang on a minute... ah, found it. Take a look here.

Check on the Hungry Programmers' site. They're the guys who developed it (or started developing it - I have no idea what stage it's at, if it's finished/unfinished, etc.)...

I agree with almost everything Richard Stallman has to say on this one. The only major beef I have with Stallman's open letter is with the following sentences: "Most programs that were written for Motif can use LessTif with no changes. Please support the free software community by using LessTif rather than Motif. Some finishing work still needs to be done on LessTif; to volunteer, contact lesstif@hungry.com."

Stallman's use of the term "finishing work" is misleading. Stallman fails to point out that LessTif presently implements the base, CDE-unaware Motif 1.2 widget library and little else. mwm, UIL, and libMrm are a long way from merely requiring "finishing work." The Hungry Programmers plan to support Motif 2.1 but freely admit in the LessTif FAQ that compatibility with Motif 2.0 will "take a long time."

Beyond having "made room for CDE compatible widgets and applications," the prospects for CDE implementation are murkier. The LessTif FAQ says that "the people in the eXode project...are working on" CDE, but the Enhanced X Open Desktop (eXode) Project Goals page flatly states that "eXode won't be the free CDE."

Thus, it's a stretch to say that the current LessTif requires only "finishing work" to be fully compatible with Motif 1.2, and it's even more questionable if the aim is parity with OpenMotif 2.1.30, let alone CDE.

By the way, the above is not meant to put down the LessTif project or the A HREF="http://www.hungry.com/">Hungry Programmers -- they've done excellent work thus far.

If everyone were to switch to LessTif in its current form, there'd be little, if any, incentive for anyone to move forward from Motif 1.2 to Motif 2.1 -- Motif would either ossify or fork at 1.2, and either way, Motif 2.1 (even as an API) would more or less cease to exist. Those who wrote their programs to the Motif 2.1 API would have to back-port their code to work with the Motif 1.2-based LessTif API (or switch GUI toolkits altogether). I won't offer my position on that issue at the moment, but when advocating LessTif as an alternative to OpenMotif, Stallman should have at least acknowledged it.

Stallman may or may not merely be assuming that any release of Motif beyond 1.2 is irrelevant (since, like it or not, Motif 1.2 is still the predominant version in use), but it is careless of him, and a little troubling, that he doesn't mention it at all.

However, this quibble aside, I agree with the thrust of what Stallman wrote.

I have had it up the socket with people complaining about nearly every story on /., saying that it "doesn't belong" or isn't "news for nerds" or it isn't "stuff that matters". Last I checked, no one had defined those in a universally acceptable way.

Some things don't matter to some people. Some things do. Sometimes I care about a /. posting. Sometimes I don't. If I don't find it interesting, I can skip it, and I can even configure my account to filter out stuff I'm not interested in. WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT (tm) HERE. Why do some feel the need to decrease the s/n ratio by complaining about stories they don't feel are relevant to *their* beliefs on what's important? Imagine if the same thing happened everytime someone spammed a usenet group... <ugh>

• 0490 Do you read news?
• 0491 ... More than 32 newsgroups?
• 0492 ... More than 256 newsgroups?
• 0493 ... All the newsgroups?

Anyway, if you've clicked through, you've noticed that Hungry's Y makes the Freedows project look productive. It's somewhere between "I've got some ideas, a few names, and a cool web page" and "I might be getting around to coding this." It appears that the author may have found smaller windmills to tilt at.

http://terror.hungry.com/products/Ywind ows/

Not much there yet, it seems.

There are two X alternatives that I can think of besides the Berlin mentioned. One of them is The Y Window System, by the Hungry Programmers (specifically Christoph Toshok), which isn't very far along and as far as I can tell hasn't been worked on in a while (since about February 1998). It promotes the use of a single fixed depth, which I think is a bad idea. It does have some good ideas though, like a somewhat separate memory architecture. Download here.

The other one, NanoGUI, was originally developed by Alan Cox. It was designed with a lightweight memory footprint in mind. I'm not sure if it supports networked display, though, but I believe they're going to at least port VNC. It's being used on the new Linux7k project, which is attempting to create a usable Linux system for the Psion 5 series palmtop (it uses an ARM7 processor). It seems to be undergoing active development. Download here.

So I hope that's a good starting point.

There are two X alternatives that I can think of besides the Berlin mentioned. One of them is The Y Window System, by the Hungry Programmers (specifically Christoph Toshok), which isn't very far along and as far as I can tell hasn't been worked on in a while (since about February 1998). It promotes the use of a single fixed depth, which I think is a bad idea. It does have some good ideas though, like a somewhat separate memory architecture. Download here.

The other one, NanoGUI, was originally developed by Alan Cox. It was designed with a lightweight memory footprint in mind. I'm not sure if it supports networked display, though, but I believe they're going to at least port VNC. It's being used on the new Linux7k project, which is attempting to create a usable Linux system for the Psion 5 series palmtop (it uses an ARM7 processor). It seems to be undergoing active development. Download here.

So I hope that's a good starting point.

Nope.

Berlin is at http://www.berlin-consortium.org

Y windows is at http://www.hungry.com/products/Ywindows

YAX is at http://yax.netpaedia.net

So, when do we start working on 'Y'?

Check the Hungry Programmers' site on Y.

/Bergie

--

--

So, when do we start working on 'Y'?

Check the Hungry Programmers' site on Y.

/Bergie

--

--

Berlin isn't likely to be lightweight since they have included a widget system in the display server.

Maybe Chris Toshok's Y Window System will happen, but X compatibility (via a libX11 proxy lib or proxy X server) will be required forever.