Slashdot Mirror

If you're going to switch databases over the issue, you might as well consider other options, like Firebird: it's also free, I do believe the timestamps have better-than-second precision (at the very least it insists on showing me 4 extra digits I never use for anything), and it's certainly easier to install, setup, and admin than PostgreSQL (IMO). It has limitations, of course, and you should be careful to read the fine print, as you would with any product selection. I would worry that you're using some particularly esoteric features of PostgreSQL that won't translate well to Firebird, but if MySQL is even an option for you, that's highly unlikely.

Slashdot declined to carry the story I posted on it (yeah, yeah, grousing...), but Firebird 2.1 (release) came out three months ago, with some really nifty features like on-commit triggers that let you enforce constraints no other database will help you enforce (that I've seen -- Oracle certainly won't.) It rocks.

Your mileage WILL vary, but I'd recommend at least checking it out. Either http://www.ibphoenix.com/ or http://www.firebirdsql.org/.

another official mirror for firebirdsql.org site

you can download and read the news about this release from an official alternate site (ibphoenix)

http://www.ibphoenix.com/

i hope slashdot doesn't kill this one too ;)

Don't be so bent on "this is an MS Access replacement". Firebird is a full-featured RDBMS.

Check some information in this white paper.

Some info from that document:

"The project, implemented by the original developer of InterBase (Jim Starkey) was commissioned for SAS Institute, the world's largest vendor of business and medical statistics application software. SAS had made the decision in 2003 to move many of its business applications over from Oracle to Firebird."

"The largest Firebird database we have heard of is about 11 Terabytes and growing."

Hmm, maybe I should try this thing...

Pardon me for ignoring obvious sarcasm...

"Firebird" the browser has obviously changed it's name.

"Firebird" the database is still called "Firebird."

Does a C API count? The Firebird project is open-source, has a .dll version of the server for embedding, and is written in C/C++ (they're converting everything over to C++ classes and exceptions.) It has a C API, for which you can find minimalist C++ wrappers. Firebird's footprint is really quite small, it's generally fast, it has good transaction semantics, good sql support, stored procedures, triggers, generators, ... it's sort of considered a cousin to PostgreSQL (they've concentrated on slightly different feature sets.)

Still, you sort of have a point. There are plenty of applications that work well within MySQL's limitations. Then again, they also work well with other low-end DBMSs, like FireBird/Interbase and PosgreSQL. (Let's leave Oracle out of the discussion -- you don't use that kind of software unless you have deep pockets and serious support infrastructure.) Now, if you know for sure that your application will never evolve beyond MySQL's limitations, I suppose there's no harm in using it. But most application do evolve.

I don't usually care for the usual "It sucks!" versus "It rules!" debates you see on Slashdot. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. But in this case I have to say that MySQL does suck. Not in the sense that it's totally useless (obviously not, since so many people use it). But it does suck you into a development path that you will come to regret following.

Interbase/Firebird also supported some other language ... GDML, was it? Documentation

As I recall, it's all but impossible to get to anymore. As for multiple languages in the same engine, the SQL support has multiple dialects available, with slightly different support for certain datatypes (particularly date/time-related.) So there's a bit of that already, though not tons.

Business system 12 for an example of yet another language in early systems.

Well, you can't beat MySQL for its cheapness facor. Let's face it, most people don't need some professional job, myself included.

By that, do you mean most people don't need more features, as in PostgreSQL and Firebird? Both are free (in fact, more free, if you consider MySQL's licensing requirements for businesses) ... and both are supported by interface layers like jdbc/odbc, as well as perl, php, and so forth ...

After a few winter months, the gas company sent us an estimated bill for $350. Our bills had been between one and two dollars because we heated the space with computers rather than gas. Mass Gas was convinced we were stealing from them. They replaced the meter twice, and still got absurdly low readings. Eventually the meter reader came up to our office agreed that the computers produced a lot of heat

... and right here: Firebird.

Maybe we should just redirect people to Sourceforge instead?

can I use this in a comercial system? who do I pay what does it cost?

The license is essentially similar to that of Mozilla. You can use it in a commercial environment without paying anyone, although there is commercial support available for IBPhoenix if you need it.

Furthermore, there's a feature-complete and free Python driver for Firebird here

What language? What platform?

Let's start with a nice Win32 Gui to administer the db: IBExpert

OK, now the drivers: there are plenty of ODBC, OleDB, .NET and JDBC drivers available. I personally use IBProvider, it's a OleDB driver. I have also used the open sourced ODBC driver with great success.

Tried Firebird at all? Feature set is pretty much like Postgres (minor variations in emphasis,) easy to install (both under windows and linux, particularly with the RPM, even under slackware) and it handles our load beautifully.

I've got a few C++ programmers, writing a rather fat client (400 distinct screens, hundred or so reports beyond that) using Firebird on the server. Handles our forty or so users just fine, and unlike some other database servers (MySQL), it keeps our data safe.

Also, as it is relevant to this story, Firebird has an embedded version. Same capabilities as the full server (SQL and all,) except that it's in a DLL you bundle with your application, a sort of single-user mode that doesn't require a service running in the background. That's a big advantage. You don't have to change any code for your app to run on the single-user version (but if you start there without planning for multi-user access, you might be in trouble scaling up!)

Oh, and using Firebird doesn't require you to make your app open-source or free, ever. Even using the embedded server, shipping pretty much all of Firebird with your app, it's still free to use.

It's based on Borland's Interbase, the fork occured at Interbase 6-open-source, and has been moving forward steadily. We're all waiting for Firebird 1.5 final (it's in late-stage release candidates, but they're very careful with it) for improved performance and features. But I've been using 1.0 in production environment for what feels like forever, and it's quite stable itself, and quite powerful. Check it out!

That's why I look forward to the completion of a few last (for this) features in Firebird (the database server) -- they have an 'embedded' version that sits in a .dll and acts exactly like the server version as far as the calling program is concerned. It's the same engine code, so the same SQL is supported, the same features available. It can still load UDF libraries (the same ones it loaded as a server) but won't accept connections from other programs. If you want several programs to access the same file at the same time, you'll have to do that yourself. It's already great for building single-user programs to be distributed to clients who wouldn't want a "full-blown" database server running (really, it is, but at least it's not listening to any ports.)

Firebird/Interbase has always been rather small -- 10 meg install, very little memory usage. The main problem porting it to PDA's and other embedded devices was its loopback / inter-process-communication systems. Its shared-memory method wasn't completed (though from what I hear, they have it working in development versions, and the new method speeds up the server quite a bit as well) and it relied on 127.0.0.1 loopback. Windows CE didn't allow for that (no ethernet interfaces at all by default, not even lo) and thus the server couldn't talk to itself. (It tends to use multiple processes.)

Regardless, Firebird will most likely be available for embedded devices soon, run quickly and quietly, and won't be a stripped-down version at all. Code written for large multi-user environments would still work, but you might have to wait a bit longer for your huge reports.

(And yes, I feel fine writing this without being too concerned about vaporware -- it's already proven technology, it's actively worked on, and the Microsoft thing isn't any closer.)

Agreed. Firebird (here) and PostgreSQL(here) both do. And it works. InnoDB in mysql tries really hard, but it's behind, and it slows down MySQL (compared to ISAM/VSAM) enough you might as well use another database that, at the same speed, has more features.

more info here firebird,phoenix

Getting real sick of certain media and companies pushing products.

Firebird is never mentioned but i hear it's good.

IBPhoenix, an affliate of the Firebird Database have sent an official apology to mozilla.org over their mailbombing and spamming campaign. Finally, some maturity!

Now if only they'd apologise to non-mozilla.org sites affected like MozillaZine and Slashdot.

IBPhoenix, an affliate of the Firebird Database have sent an official apology to mozilla.org over their mailbombing and spamming campaign. Finally, some maturity!

Now if only they'd apologise to non-mozilla.org sites affected like MozillaZine and Slashdot.

Phoenix, the lightweight opensource mozilla browser, was renamed to Firebird.
Firebird, the open source database, is supported by a company called IBPhoenix.
Firebird, the database, also happens to be licensed under the IPL, which is based on the Mozilla Public License.

The Mozilla Project's Asa Dotzler has said that "the chances of someone confusing a web browser and a relational database are about as slim as someone confusing a loaf of bread and a bananna". There have now been complaints from Mozilla camp about IBPhoenix inciting their users to contact, en masse, Asa (and others) about this matter... I think that the Mozilla people should really just be glad that the users were only asked to send email, rather than to snail mail packages of mozilla-branded banana bread. Because that would be kind of funny.

In any case, I think that a project who's name and logo comes awfully close to infringing on a certain Japaneese movie franchise really ought to think carefully before stepping on friend's toes regarding name rights.

Phoenix, the lightweight opensource mozilla browser, was renamed to Firebird.
Firebird, the open source database, is supported by a company called IBPhoenix.
Firebird, the database, also happens to be licensed under the IPL, which is based on the Mozilla Public License.

The Mozilla Project's Asa Dotzler has said that "the chances of someone confusing a web browser and a relational database are about as slim as someone confusing a loaf of bread and a bananna". There have now been complaints from Mozilla camp about IBPhoenix inciting their users to contact, en masse, Asa (and others) about this matter... I think that the Mozilla people should really just be glad that the users were only asked to send email, rather than to snail mail packages of mozilla-branded banana bread. Because that would be kind of funny.

In any case, I think that a project who's name and logo comes awfully close to infringing on a certain Japaneese movie franchise really ought to think carefully before stepping on friend's toes regarding name rights.

Let us examine the situation:

1. Separated from parent company to release rival OS
2. Copied an existing OS almost down to the letter
3. Used sneaky tactics to boost their own popularity
4. Trying to crush all competition
5. Shunned by the sane world

Welcome to Firebird SQL: Where do you want to go today?

Using IBPhoenix's own logic, why doesn't someone flood them with email, for "stealing" the name from Phoenix Technologies?

That's right, because nobody's going to confuse a database with a browser. Oh, wait, nevermind, I guess they do.

Using IBPhoenix's own logic, why doesn't someone flood them with email, for "stealing" the name from Phoenix Technologies?

That's right, because nobody's going to confuse a database with a browser. Oh, wait, nevermind, I guess they do.

You know, I really hate to bring myself down to such a petty and immature level, but in this case, I'll make an exception. Mozilla is a perfectly good, respected open source solutions provider. As such, its products lend a certain amount of credibility to open source in general (hey Linux people, this means you). Credibility is the key to widescale adoption within large companies and the like. You can have the best products on Earth, but if your credibility is zilch, no major business will touch it. In the spirit of showing others that this type of bahavior yields more pain than rewards, and without further adu:

I say let the fuckers have it. Hit these assholes first, then these pricks. Fill their message boards, newsletters, email boxes, and everything else you can find that'll take your submission with the following message:

"DoSing Open Source is not fun * "

Paste it into anything that'll let you 3, 4, 5 times a day. Calling Linux fanboys - this is your chance to troll while actually doing something good for a change. Hit them as often as you possibly can (or make (and post) a script to do it automatically all day long) and continue doing it until you see the story posted on slashdot saying that BOTH of them have apologized and will never do it again.

Don't post a reply if you're going ahead with it, just do it. If they're allowed to do this and get away with it, it will legitimize it in a way we never want to see. Unfortunatly, I see no alternative to dealing with this issue other than giving these people a taste of their own medicine.

mail to the IBPhoenix People "I would like to make you "aware" that your claim is absurd. Your claim that an Internet browser will interfere with a relational database is absolutely absurd. Best, INSERT YOUR NAME HERE"

I guess most people have come to expect this from slashdot, but it should be pointed out all the same. It's too bad everyone (me included) puts up with it.

From the slashdot writeup:

"Meanwhile, IBPhoenix, an organisation that supports the development of the Firebird database, has put up a protest page, encouraging people to spam the MozillaZine forums (even though MozillaZine had nothing to do with the decision) and send masses of email to many Mozilla developers (most of whom were not involved in selecting the new name). I find it rather hypocritical [--snip--]"

From the linked article (slightly summarised):

Let the Mozilla forums know how you feel. They've already taken some heat in forums on their website. To join that fray, you must register. Check http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/index.php and http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=3 075 for the discussion.

You might also send mail to the following people and groups:

Asa Dotzler - he made the announcement [..]

drivers@mozilla.org - drivers are the project managers of Mozilla [..]

These people are the technical project leaders of Mozilla. They too should be aware that the possibility for confusion exists. [--snip eight addresses--]

Listing the eight technical project leaders at the end might have been a tad excessive, but I'd hardly call that "encouraging people to spam the mozillazine forums" or harrassing mozilla developers in the way that slashdot makes out to be. It looks like an ordinary informational page to tell people how they can contact the people who are able to make a decision.

That's right, and get this:

The company that primarily exists to support and improve Firebird and which employs many ex-Borland people (including the inventor of Interbase) is called IBPhoenix.

Dave

win32? pdp11? unix? linux? doesn't matter -- firebird does it all. postgresql and firebird are quite similar, feature-wise, but their histories are quite different. check it out! (and yes, firebird/interbase -are- supported by php.) i just don't get the obsession with mysql, as if it were the -only- usable open-source database out there. btw, i might love postgres more if it didn't take more work to install than firebird. i mean ... firebird just -goes-. and that's on linux (production machine) or windows (test machine.)

firebird is open-source, does transactional isolation, etc. like the big guys. it's fast, small, and free. i've heard from people using postgresql that the two are quite similar, feature-wise. firebird (as interbase) has been around for a -long- time, and has pretty much always had transactional isolation (it's not an add-on after-thought like, say, with mysql, or less so, with postgresql.) and did i mention that the original designers and coders now work on firebird, not interbase?

and it -is- necessary to have that isolation. i dunno where our application would be without it. it's not a web-app though, and that makes a difference -- we have transactions open for minutes, maybe hours at a time, with individual client machines doing whatever they need to do.

what it doesn't have -- stuff like xml (what for?) or tables as domains, or full-text indexing (note: even in oracle, the full-text indexing wasn't an oracle-built package, as i recall.) i think its support for unicode is improving, but it wasn't built with that in mind. (unicode on a pdp-11?) they're switching the code base to c++, taking -out- support for platforms nobody cares about. (helps reduce the size.)

i agree you can get more speed out of something without transactional isolation -- but i hope you never need it. when it rains, it pours ... and i've run into the need for transactions even in web-apps. every millisecond counts, not speed-wise, but logic-wise.

I guess you are referring to Interbase here.

IIRC the 'backdoor' was rarely changed default system password. This combined with bootstrap caused some interesting behaviour forming a backdoor.

In Interbase a seperate database schema is used to store database username and password pairs, unfortunely you can't access that until you are authenticated, so a backdoor was added so get round this problem.

BTW, this is all from memory so check the archives before taking what i've said as gospel.

I use open-sourced interbase both for intranet and for a news app that I've developed for a TV station. It requires virtually zero administration, has all the stuff a RDBMS should have (triggers, stored procedures, user-defined functions, etc.).

It has versions for Linux, Windows, some Unices, etc., so it's easier if you entually decide trash out M$ in the server side.

I don't believe so. The only "real" competition that Oracle has from the Open Source Community is from Interbase/Firebird

Interbase has excellent blob support. Borland markets it as an "embedded" database, but in the real world it's used at all scales, including servers that do stock market transactions. The open source version has an active community, including a lot of people who helped create the original closed-source product.

we had a requirement to be able to run in a pure Windows or Solaris 8.x environment. MySQL is the only major, free DBMS that fits that bill.

We had enough code of our own to write, we didn't have time to fix anyone else's product

http://www.ibphoenix.com/ibp_news_art6.html

Real DBMS people will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MySQL's problem with multi-field keys a symptom of bad query optimization? As I understand it, MySQL is just a simple SQL interpreter running on top of a simple ISAM engine. What's missing? A query optimizer, which expedites data access in much the same way that a optimizing compiler expedites execution of native code.

Of course, you'll want to stick to open-source engines. But that still gives you plenty of choices. Have a look at Interbase, its Firebird variant (see IBPhoenix.com for Open Source efforts for both engines), and, of course, Postgres.

Interbase is an (excellent, BTW) open source DBMS that has replication. The replication module is commercial though, and developped by a company called Synectics. Never tested it myself, but it's supposed to be pretty good. Other people have developped their own custom solutions. And yes, Interbase has been supporting 2 phase commits since its beginnings in the mid-80s. Also supported are triggers and events, all of which are used to make replication work.

I would recommend Interbase over MySQL for just about any application. There is a very active community working on it. They forked the code because Borland/Inprise's apparent lack of real commitment to Interbase. They call it now Firebird. For more Informatin, look here.