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AR 15s have 50 shot and 100 shot magazines.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com...
http://www.impactguns.com/ar15...

And you can see the comparison here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

22 seconds for 30 on target shots with targets much smaller than a human torso.

It's even more stupid than you think it is, when you realize how they distinguish between pistols and rifles. Basically, if it has a stock, it is a rifle; if it doesn't, it is a pistol. So, for example, this is a pistol - and, as such, is perfectly legal and not regulated in any special way. But if you add a stock to it, it becomes a "short-barreled rifle", and now it's regulated as an NFA item. And keep in mind that a stock is anything that you can use to support it against your shoulder - i.e. a bent piece of wire duct taped to the receiver would qualify.

Shotgun/rifle distinction is also kinda weird. Rifles are, well, rifled, while shotguns are not. But you can still fire shot from rifled barrels, and there are rifled slug guns and even revolvers that do just that. Because they are classified as rifles, the limit on barrel length is 16", as opposed to 18.5" for shotguns, and no limit at all for handguns. My understanding is that originally there was only a limit for shotguns, and its purpose was to ban sawed-off shotguns (as they were seen as strictly close-range offensive weapon useful only for criminals and not for any legitimate purpose like self-defense, hunting or militia service). But today, the only thing that forbids rifled sawed-off "non-shotguns" firing large-size shot is not the barrel limit - since they would technically qualify as handguns - but rather the restriction on caliber (everything above .50 is a "destructive device"; 12 gauge is .729, and 20 gauge is .616). Hence why you can do it with .410 shotshells, but not with 12 or 20 gauge. Still, someone could make a "custom" .50 cal shotshell (and make it long to fit more shot in it) and design a handgun for it that would be legal and not specially regulated, while technically offering all features and benefits of a sawed off shotgun...

The problem is that firearm laws in US have evolved "organically", meaning that it is a hodge-podge of hastily adopted resolutions to address public outcry to some crimes that drew attention, various "common sense" hacks, hacks on top of those hacks etc. Even worse is that a lot of it is not even clearly spelled out in law, but is basically up to BATFE to decide - so a single unelected bureaucrat can considerably change policy either way by issuing an executive directive. E.g. bump fire "full auto" guns are not considered truly full auto by BATFE today, but they may become that tomorrow. On the other hand, even under existing policy, if a weapon accidentally double-fires (an uncommon but possible malfunction in any semi-auto), it could be reclassified as a full-auto, and its owner would then immediately become a felon.

We really need to just ditch this whole mess and rework it from scratch as a single coherent law based on well-defined policy. Of course, for that, we'd need to decide on policy, and that is very much a hot topic these days, with no consensus in sight.

If the Sea Shepherds had the firepower needed to do something about the Somali pirates then this whole discussion would have been resolved years ago. One way or the other.

So why don't they have it? Blackwater had weapons, other private protection agencies ("private armies") have weapons, AQ has them...

A pair of snipers with M82A1 on a gyrostabilized platform aboard a ship can do a lot of damage to a dozen guys with AK-47s on a tiny boat. The sway of the pirate boat will not allow the pirates to shoot with any accuracy, and a sniper only needs a couple of inches of an opening in the armor plate. That, of course, doesn't preclude use of more advanced ship to ship weapons...

SSCS is harassing unarmed fishermen and in the end is hurting anti-whaling sentiments. That's because when people need to choose between saving a handful of whales vs. supporting a group of fanatical, homicidal psycho killers (aka SSCS :-) about 99% of the population gladly sacrifices the whales to get rid of the psychos. SSCS created a wrong wedge issue - SSCS is on the losing side by definition; nobody likes pirates, regardless of their motivation. SSCS is just a notch apart from acknowledged terrorists like The Red Brigades. You can say that both were working toward a noble goal, however they understood it. SSCS doesn't intentionally target people yet, though throwing bottles with acid toward people is not very friendly in my book. But if things continue as they are, shots will be eventually fired - and that will be the end of SSCS. No single activist group can wage a war against a powerful country and expect to win that war. SSCS members are still alive only because Japan hasn't used, so far, its right for self-defense - and that includes sending Navy ships along with whalers.

Yes of course I wasn't talking about collector's pieces and such. I am talking about going into a gun store and buying an automatic weapon. It just isn't happening.

Sure it does. If you have the cash, you can go buy one. You have to buy it, then do the paperwork, then wait three months for your NFA stamp, then you can go pick it up. You can even buy one on-line, though you'll have to go to a local FFL to do the paperwork. Here are some to choose from:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html.

Note that not all of the firearms on that page are fully automatic, though all require NFA tax stamps. Many are full auto, though, and you can buy one if you have the money.

discharging them is a whole other ballgame

No different than shooting any other firearm, other than some gun ranges don't allow full-auto fire, because it's hard on the backstops.

don't know of any real cities that allow the discharge of firearms in the city limits except in designated areas like gun ranges.

Typically even small towns ban discharge except at designated ranges. In most states, however, once you get outside of city limits there are no laws against shooting, as long as you're not too close to roads, buildings, etc.

I guess that is why the crazy gun-loving anti-government groups seem to have their compounds out in the middle of nowhere in rural states. When you own the 1000 acres that surround you, you are free to do just about anything you want...

No need to be a member of a "crazy gun-loving anti-government group", thank goodness. Or even a gun-loving pro-government group. Discharge is legal on most public lands in most states, and any pretty much any private property outside of city limits.

The other items mentioned have other purposes than kill or injure, and that is the major difference.

Sometimes the task of killing an animal (a.k.a. hunting) is valid on its own. In fact, hunting of some pests is an important task because pests spread diseases and damage land. Some species were imported from Europe and thus have no natural predators here to keep them in check (sparrow, starling, pig for example). Other species are local but they are not sufficiently controlled by predators (ground squirrels of several kinds; some rabbits; some deer even.) Some states have now problems with wild horses; these are not hunted at all (illegal) and so their population grows and grows. Horses have no predators here either, they were imported by Columbus.

Another valid use of a gun is for sport, we discussed that already.

But what about when he is drunk, or angry from fighting with his wife, lost his job or has been bullied at school and snaps?

He can just as well stick a garden fork into me, or run me over with a truck, or hit me with a lead pipe if he is that interested in killing someone. Life is dangerous, and most of that danger comes from people. A couple of months ago some nationalist stole a car and run 16 people over because they were foreigners (students). He had no gun, since it happened in Russia, but he killed just as many (if not more) as if he had a firearm. Arsons are also popular, I recall a few in Germany, where Turks were on the receiving end. And of course an all-time favorite of domestic disputes, a kitchen knife, it kills more people every year than all rifles, legal or not, combined.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, indeed if you make it physically impossible for anyone to hurt anyone then indeed nobody will be hurt. But you will be denying people the freedom of doing things that not necessarily lead to harm. If you want to take that road, ban cars first - they kill 5x more people every year. Yes, cars are useful - but they are way too dangerous. Should we ban things based on their actual, measured danger level, or ban things based on how they look? Or even worse, on how many people find them useful?

As I understand it most of the weapons problem in Mexico is a result of arms being legally purchased in the US and smuggled into Mexico.

It is not so; you can not buy most of the weapons in the USA that are in posession of Mexican crime syndicates. You can only buy basically hunting weapons (at most semi-auto, but majority being manual action.) These are not very interesting to criminals because the rate of fire is low (and that's exactly how hunters want them to be.) It is *very* hard to buy full-auto weapons, in some states simply impossible. You will be fingerprinted and photographed, and you will have to prepare a ton of paperwork. Read about it here. It is so difficult that most people in the USA believe that it is just impossible to own a full-auto weapon. They are not too far from truth. With regard to handguns, there is a limit on how many you can buy per month (one) and that makes it very inconvenient to buy large quantities of handguns in the USA (especially if you can buy them on international market cheaper, faster and no questions asked.) Remember that only US citizens and GC holders are allowed to buy weapons, so one can't just come from Mexico on a tourist visa and buy the whole gun store - you must use intermediaries, and those will come up in any BATF database as a huge red flag if they buy often.

But to comment on the rest of your message ... yes, maybe the USA would be better off with forbidding gun ownership by default, and only permitting certain classes of weapons to qualified persons who have a good reason to have access to a gun. I can not argue against such a hypothetical scenario, and if I were to rebuild the USA from scratch that

First, Firethorn, I take it you've never been in combat nor experienced any "live fire" situations?

Nope, have you? I consider myself lucky to have avoided that so far. Still, it's been a distinct possibility several times.

Nor do you appear to be experienced with assault rifles and other weaponry.

hehehehe...
Award(don't have a scan):
Gästeschießen
3./FmBtl 281
Beim Schießen mit dem Maschinengehr MG3 hat ***** ****** den 1. Platz belegt.
Gees, im September 200*
Reinhardt
Hauptmann u.
KpChef

I'm not a high-speed low drag individual, but I'm not unexperienced.

With the latest Sig automatic rifle I could take out most of a crowded football stadium in under five minutes - a slight exaggeration, but only slight!
Are you talking about this rifle?

Still, Slight exaggeration? Surely not! It's a gross exaggeration! Unless you're talking about a non-college, non-professional stadium, occupancy for my example football stadium is 81,067. A standard 5.56 magazine is 30 rounds. I own a AR-15, and have a number of 30 round magazines. The rifle, combined with 10 magazines(300 rounds total) is fairly heavy. I would be able to carry substantially more, true, but I'd be encumbered carrying that much and not moving very quickly. After all, a loaded magazine weighs .45 kg. A hundred loaded magazines would be 100 pounds to carry. That gives me 3000 rounds. I consider 300 rounds to be a decent range trip. 3k rounds would also cost around a thouand dollars, buying cheap.

Even carrying a hundred pounds of ammo, and killing somebody with each shot, you'd only get 3.7% of the stadium goers. More realistically, they'd trample more of each other trying to flee than what you'd kill.

Besides, talking about automatic rifles is totally besides the point when we're talking about a shooter using semi-automatic handguns with 15 round magazines. One of them a .22!

Your suggestion as to what occurred at Virginia Tech is both highly insulting, highly ignorant and most obscene. There were unbelievable examples of heroism and valor on behalf of the faculty and students there - something sadly lacking from those politicians in elective office today

What, the truth? From what I've read, NOT ONE PERSON IN THE BUILDING WENT AFTER THE SHOOTER. Yes, there were heroic acts I can only hope I would be capable of- but barricading a door, while smart, is not precisely heroic or valorous. Two professors held the classroom doors closed while Seung-Hui Cho shot him, one succeeded, one did not, both died. One went to investigate - and ended up shot. Being a hero, perhaps unfortuantly, requires one to be successful.

I DO NOT CONSIDER HIDING UNDER A DESK to be heroic, much less valorous. Read some decorations for medals of honor for heroic and valorous acts. Do you consider hiding under a desk or jumping out a window to be equivalent to, while wounded, grasping a lit flare and hauling it, while it's burning you, to the back of the aircraft to throw it out, like A1C John L. Levitow?

All I was saying was that if we'd trained the students there to consider offensive actions in such a situation, it probably would of resulted in fewer casualties. Even a fatally wounded individual would have probably been able to disable Cho long enough for others to finish the job.

Heros still exist today - I'm just questioning if they're being trained for the correct responses.

Where does our current elected officials come into this? This sort of thing isn't going to be initiated by these individuals. Nice ranting though.

Secondly, choosing the most clueless sci-fi writers - especially at this rather late da

If RPGs are classified like grenade launchers, then they are considered "Destructive Devices" in the eyes of the Federal Government. If you live in a state and a municipality that allows citizens to own such items, and you want a DD, you'd need to register it with the BATFE (which is a big pain in the ass, involving a long amount of time and from what I can remember, at least a signature from the Chief of Police or Sheriff of the jurisdiction the weapon will reside in; however, from some simple reading, it looks like corporations are not required to obtain the signature, odd...) and pay an excise tax (for either manufacturing or transferring) of $200 on the weapon, and then the same tax on each piece of ammunition. It becomes rather expensive to fire the weapon since you have to pay that tax on each individual round.

Wikipeida article on Destructive Devices
Here's an informative forum post that might help as well

Suffice to say, it's legal and possible, just a real severe pain in the ass.

What the hell does the second amendment have to do with my rights ONLINE? I'm still allowed to shoot people in games over the internet, regardless of what the handgun rights are here in DC.

I can still buy guns online and I suppose that will go away soon now. So, this does affect my rights online.

As I feared, now that the republicans have done as much damage to the first amendment as they can, the democrats will pick up where they left off on the second.

Is it a little too conspiracy theory nutty of me to propose that they are really all in this together to just take power away from the people. That the democrats and republicans are pretty much the same when it comes to disdain for the constitution and the men who created it?

O.K., it's late, this irritates me and I'm not in the mood to start quoting sources but saying it makes me feel better.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/ak47.html Shazaam

And if sniping is more your style, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item =59440718 Now you too can be Vassily Zaitsev!

Maybe you'd rather have a grenade launcher? http://www.impactguns.com/store/dd.html

http://www.impactguns.com/store/ak47.html Shazaam

And if sniping is more your style, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item =59440718 Now you too can be Vassily Zaitsev!

Maybe you'd rather have a grenade launcher? http://www.impactguns.com/store/dd.html

I used to be a big proponent of shotguns, but nowadays with modern kevlar armor, you're really much better off with this. Or this for close quarters if you can illegally modify them.

Most people who hear the words "air rifle" remember the lever action Daisy B-B guns, and they remember B-B gun battles with their friends. The worst anyone ever went home with was a stinging bruise, (no, Mom, nobody put their eye out) and everyone had a great time.

Modern air rifles are nothing like those B-B guns. Compare the Daisy to my rifled RWS Diana 350 which fires a pellet at 1250 fps. You can even buy actual rimfire .22 caliber ammo that isn't that fast. Believe me when I say that I would NOT want to get shot by this springer. It's a great varmint gun -- very quiet and powerful enough to kill small game. But don't confuse it with the toys of your childhood.

I can certainly understand why Michigan would consider it to be in the same class as a firearm. It performs substantially the same tasks.

• Intratech KG9 Full Auto Machine Gun $2669
  "You've seen the "TEC's" in the movies and on TV, now here's a chance to own one at an affordable price. This KG9 is a registered receiver conversion. It comes with the front K grip for added controlability. Its (sic) definately (sic) a handful of fun!"
• Groundbreaking for new machine gun plant in Georgia. " Columbus businesswoman Terry Hadden tries out the MP5SD, a sound suppressed submachine gun". Click here to buy.
• For those times when you need more firepower, try the Starstreak Hypervelocity Missile.
• Your posse can't get its act together? Here's how the Marines do it. The "Warfighting" series is a good read.
• Unsure what to do with all this firepower? Read Parameters, the journal of the Army War College, where generals talk shop.

.50 caliber BMG

In Vietnam, Marines used to zero out their .50s to a mile. Two guys (one shoots the other one is a spotter) on top of hill, would wreck major havoc. Couldn't even hear the report of the weapon. Used to take take out VC as they were getting their hair cut. I imagine this could be employed for a spammer sitting at their computer... Anyway, can't beat the ballistics on a .50 cal.