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> If by "mediocre-to-bad" you mean 35-45 MPG (for something like a Prius), then I suppose that is true,

I've heard that number, but I suspect it's from press releases. It doesn't appear to match what prius owners are actually seeing. There are four just in my circle of friends (six figure geeks who can afford trendy things) and they're all getting in the twenties on the freeway. Gas engine economy cars can meet or beat that. It's only logical. Take any machine designed for a particular environment (in this case, typical city traffic) and put it in a different environment, and it will perform differently.

Your friends are doing something wrong or they don't understand how to calculate their MPG. They should get their machines checked out.

I've put about over 150,000 km on our 2003 Prius, and I have never had a tank with worse consumption than 6.5 L/100km which Google claims is 36.186859 miles per gallon. This has included a number of cross continent drives, with tanks of gas consumed entirely with average speeds over 110 kmph (68 MPH), in winter conditions with snow tires. I am lucky to get less than 4.5 L/100km (better than 52 MPG), even on nice summer days at low speeds, but 5 L/100 km (47 MPG) per tank is pretty common (and close to the car's lifetime average I think).

I don't think I have ever seen an average consumption (I don't recall if it does 5 minute or 15 minute averages on the display) that was as bad as 7.9 L/100km ( 29.7 MGP), except for maybe in highway hill climbing, but then it tends to get offset up in the run down the other side.

I am in no way an ultra-MPG personality - I mostly just point the car and push the pedal (though perhaps I use cruise control a bit more than average for highway driving). I do record consumption and distance for each tank of gas though, to what end I don't really know, it's not like I do any analysis of it or anything - this is probably the most extensive I have done. For actual data from some guy in Minnesota you might be interested in http://john1701a.com/ he's got some nice graphs of his mileage - note the significant winter effect.

In any case, I find it easier to believe that you are misunderstanding your friends' reporting rather than my automobile being some magical statistical anomaly that somehow gets better mileage than "normal". Perhaps they are complaining that their guage reports a low 20s MPG when they step on the pedal? Is this a problem of "instant" vs "average" data?

Prius with 285,000+ miles.

3) The battery gives you a backup power source. I've already managed to run out of gas and the battery lets you keep on going for a couple of more miles to the freeway exit which was very cool.

http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-advice.htm

Not having the engine available makes driving a Prius using just electricity very risky. Without gasoline it is very easy to push the motor & battery-pack beyond the tolerances they were designed to operate. The motor is never suppose to exceed 42 MPH (68 km/h) all by itself and the battery-pack is never suppose to be fully depleted. Avoiding running out of gas will insure the mechanical & electrical components won't overheat and the battery-pack provides the longest life possible.

What are these maintenances hassles? There aren't any. The hybrid battery is warranted for 10 years/150K miles in CA and a few other states. It's 8 year/100K miles for everyone else. http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm is at 280K miles on his previous gen Prius on the original battery.

As for your misinformation about high-mileage range, the Prius can only go a couple miles on electric alone and can be on electric only at 42 mph max. The rest of the time, it's providing assist. If you accelerate VERY slowly, you can accelerate on electric only. When you're braking and coasting, you're regenerating and recapturing some of that kinetic energy instead of having it become useless heat and brake dust.

There are documented cases of people still on the original brake pads after 100K miles due to the minimal brake wear. That's a savings in maintenance.

Correct. Also, in CA and a few northeastern states, the hybrid battery warranty is 10 year/150K miles on the Prius and Civic Hybrid.

On related news, the 10 Ford Escape hybrids (they use a battery pack from Sanyo instead of Matsushita/Panasonic on Toyota hybrids) used as NYC taxis have all passed 175K miles in less than 2 years per http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/04/ford-escape-hyb rid-taxis-demonstrate-durability-on-new-york-stre/ .

http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/taxi logged 200K miles in 25 months on a previous gen Prius. http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm is at 280K miles on his previous gen Prius.

First off, the HV batteries are warranted for 10 years/150K miles in CA and a few other states. This guy is at 280K miles BTW. http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm

They're also recycled. See http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology /2004/hybrid.html.

"Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery."

http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm

This CNW story is such crap and its numbers make no sense. It's old news. I posted my critiques of CNW's old news before at http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?p=24945 37&highlight=crock#post2494537 and http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=30444&st= 0&p=403215&#entry403215

Did you know that CNW claims that the Prius costs $325K to DISPOSE while they claim it cost $13K to make it? Did you that a VW Phaeton the sold for $64K to ~$100K incurs $2.5 MILLION in disposal costs? This is the type of crap that CNW spews out.

It also makes perfect (!) sense that they claim a Prius only lasts 100K miles when the HV battery is warranted for 10 years/150K miles in CA and a few other states. The Prius also has an excellent reliability record while the Hummer H2 has a terrible one... so therefore, the terrible one should last 300K miles. Right....

See http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-01-con sumer-report-list_x.htm for a ranking of reliability by manufacturer. Hummer is almost dead last.

Hybrids derive thier electric power from regenrtve braking and only make use of thier electric motors when crusing and driving around town. If you have a 40 min highway commute the 4cyl gas engine is going to be doing most of the work and you wont even see the improved gas mileage of a hybrid.

It is mostly true that the electric power comes from regenerative braking, but it also comes from the gasoline engine. If the computer senses that the car could be running at a more efficient rpm, it will and send the excess power to the batteries. Very cool. This is in addition, as has been pointed out, to the fact that the car is lighter due to the lack of a traditional transmission and a lighter engine.

The mentioned incentives to allow hybrid cars to use the HOV lanes actually hurts since they see thier best fuel econ in stop and go traffic.

Despite what the federal standards say, the fuel economy is still better on the highways, at least in my experience and all the websites I've visited. It is true that the advantages the hybrid provide are most pronounced in stop and go traffic, but that is mainly because traditional cars are so inefficient in those conditions.

Jack

MOD parent down for inaccurate info.

The Prius uses a power-split device of planetary gears that operates shiftless like a belt-and-cone CVT, but there's no cones and no belts. It's constantly engaged so no belt to weardown/break.

Here's a link to the PDF of info on it, and here's my previous Slashdot post on the Java simulator for it.

The "SULEV" emission rating was created to identify vehicles that were specially designed to reduce SMOG related emissions. The classic Prius achieves that criteria. The 2004 Prius actually exceeds it (having earned the "AT-PZEV" rating). Some traditional vehicles actually are SULEV too, believe it or not; but unfortunately they are only available in California and their MPG is very disappointing (even lower than their polluting counterpart). Lastly, not to put down the other hybrids, but... not every type offers SULEV cleanness; some are only ULEV, which is 72% dirtier with respect to SMOG related emissions. So don't just assume the highest efficiency equates to the lowest emissions.

The Prius is designed to run the engine at a point where it produces the least pollution, which is not always the best mileage. Sometimes, the engine will produce more power than is needed with the excess charging the batteries.

It's amazing how quickly we take for granted what was cutting-edge just a few years ago.

Actually, Honda serial tech is one big gas engine that is used ALL the time, and a small electric motor that kicks in when needed for assistance (like a supercharger).

Toyota is a small gas engine, with a big 295lb-ft torque @ 0-1200rpm electric motor and both run independently in PARALLEL depending on usage.

Actually, Honda serial tech is one big gas engine that is used ALL the time, and a small electric motor that kicks in when needed for assistance (like a supercharger).

Toyota is a small gas engine, with a big 295lb-ft torque @ 0-1200rpm electric motor and both run independently in PARALLEL depending on usage.

You should revise down for the Echo too.

It's not just hybrids, but ALL cars don't attain the fuel consumption level on the sticker from the Echo to the SUV, to the Accord hybrid (which isn't really a full hybrid), nor the "hybrid" Silverado.

You can't compare EPA Echo to non-EPA Prius. That's just not apples to apples.

Goto some Prius enthusiast sites, or this specific page and you'll find there something called warp stealth.

If the battery is topped off, you're coasting, and you're not going uphill, the gas engine will just spin without being fed gasoline.

Plus, technology like regenerative braking, regenerative motion (charges battery when coasting), the fact that the gas engine's output is ALWAYS split 70% (drive wheels) / 30% feed electric motor/generator, this higher efficiency setup gives you the better mileage.

You're not using extra energy to charge the batteries. You're just using the excess gas engine energy to charge when driving at a constant speed. How much HP do you need to beat down wind-resistance?

I drive ~75mph and I routinely get 47mph on the highway - and I'm just breaking it in! In high traffic situations (stop & go) which resemble city driving, I've gotten 51mpg so far; so traffic is a GOOD thing. :)

EPA's posted numbers are not realworld numbers, but EPA is inaccurate for EVERY car out there. Consider that.

AND, don't forget emissions - even if Echo gets comparable mpg, it's not a AT-PZEV vehicle where the air coming out is basically cleaner than the dirty city air going in. This is vastly more important than mpg if you care about your health longterm.

Goto some Prius enthusiast sites, or this specific page and you'll find there something called warp stealth.

If the battery is topped off, you're coasting, and you're not going uphill, the gas engine will just spin without being fed gasoline.

Plus, technology like regenerative braking, regenerative motion (charges battery when coasting), the fact that the gas engine's output is ALWAYS split 70% (drive wheels) / 30% feed electric motor/generator, this higher efficiency setup gives you the better mileage.

You're not using extra energy to charge the batteries. You're just using the excess gas engine energy to charge when driving at a constant speed. How much HP do you need to beat down wind-resistance?

I drive ~75mph and I routinely get 47mph on the highway - and I'm just breaking it in! In high traffic situations (stop & go) which resemble city driving, I've gotten 51mpg so far; so traffic is a GOOD thing. :)

EPA's posted numbers are not realworld numbers, but EPA is inaccurate for EVERY car out there. Consider that.

AND, don't forget emissions - even if Echo gets comparable mpg, it's not a AT-PZEV vehicle where the air coming out is basically cleaner than the dirty city air going in. This is vastly more important than mpg if you care about your health longterm.

"I've read that it costs $8000 (of course in US dollars, you godless heathen!) to replace the batteries for electric and hybrid cars. And furthermore, they need to be replaced every three years. "

Err... NO...

First, Toyota warrants the expensive nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) Prius batteries for 10 years and 100,000 miles (160,930 km), and Honda warrants the batteries on the Civic Hybrid for eight years and 80,000 miles (128,744 km). Note: In California, there is no millage limit. For the most part Hybrids limit the State of Charge of the NiMH Battery pack which extends life cycle considerably. And a very good reason why they can offer these long warranties without losing their shirt.

Second.. the NiMH hybrid battery packs aren't all that big.. around a 100 lbs. You could build a replacement NiMH pack for about a dollar per watt or around 1500$. As volume ramps up, one should expect the price of the components to drop even further.

According to one timeline, that would mean a 120MHz Pentium. If you honestly think modern authors should limit the functionality of their software to ensure it runs well on a barely-three-digit-MHz 586, then you're insane and I have a RedHat 4 CD that may interest you.

Here is a picture of the innards of the CVT. The dudes website has a lot of keen info.

Here is another site explaining the prius powertrain.

Do I really need all that for a gaming machine, though? I mean, are save-games so important that I really need RAID?

Another thing to consider is inflation. I realize skermit's info is anecdotal, but let's use it as a demonstration. This site says the Pentium 90 appeared in 1994. The Inflation Calculator says that $3000 in 1994 dollars is $3645.04 in 2003 dollars (the most recent data available).

Assuming you aren't just putting stuff in your PC because it's possible to do so, I'm pretty sure a top gaming PC today is certainly no more expensive than the analogous PC of a decade ago, and I suspect it'll be cheaper.

Anyone care to compile actual numbers, instead of relying on skermit's and Dragoon412's estimates?

The best site Ive found for explaining how the Toyota Prius works is John's presentation

Some guy in cincinatti not getting excellent fuel econmomy in first 1000 miles. This is when an engine hasn't even been broken in...This is news

I have a deisel which gets good millage (not as good as the epa test, but NOONE gets the epa millage, it allows you to kinda compare car to car). Hybrids especially the toyota which turns its gas engine off at stops in city driving will get better city than highway.

These hybrid owners are relegious about monitoring there gas millage, to the point of obsesion. Google for milage and you'll see.

Here is one site guys site that shows things aren't as bad as they would appear Prius . If you search you'll see details about millage.

This website created by a Prius owner from Minnesota has tons of real-world data. While his milage certainly isn't what the EPA claims, I think his data is representative of what Prius drivers should expect once they learn how to drive the car in such a way as to achieve good milage.

2001 Prius: Lifetime MPG as of 59,827 miles was: 45.4

2001 Prius: MPG Average for April 2001,2002,2003 was: 46.1

2004 Prius: Lifetime MPG as of 12,487 miles was: 46.8

2004 Prius: Average MPG for April 2004 was: 50.7

I don't know about you, but I'd do anything for a car that gets 50 MPG at $2.06 per gallon.

A friend of mine said tires have been a problem on his Prius. I did a quick web search and came up with this and this. It's not a show-stopper, but it is something you want to be aware of.

The ultimate accessory for any motor-vehicle-needing Green Geek is a Toyota Prius.

The Prius is a SULEV (super-ultra low emission vehicle), which puts out about 90% less pollutants such as carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen oxides (NOx) and hydrocarbons compared with a similarly-sized car, while using about 50% of the fuel and producing about 50% of the carbon dioxide.

These savings come from the use of a drivetrain incorporating an internal combustion engine, electric motor-generators and regenerative braking. You never plug in your Prius, and it has a range of 500 to 600 miles per tank. Needless to say, all of this technology is controlled by a number of computers, and there's a group dedicated to hacks and mods for the Prius.

For more information on this ideal Green Geek car, see this eight page PDF from the U.S. Department of Energy, or this site, which includes more information on the Prius than you probably want.

I'm a very happy owner of the Toyota Prius... I've actually gotten about 55 MPG in city driving, assuming I'm not in a hurry, above even the manufacturer's figures. It has been 100% reliable thus far.

I was considering the Insight, but it's only two seats, and two doors as you mentioned, so I decided to go with the Prius, as it's basically the same size as any other compact sedan.

I was looking into pure electric and gas cars, but decided not to at this time, because sometimes I like to take long-distance trips (eg, between the Bay Area, and LA, or to Nevada/Las Vegas) and there are no electric or gas refueling stations for long stretches outside urban areas, making long-distance road trips impossible with these vehicles' current range.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ It might be useful for you as well, although it's geared more towards current owners.

As for the car itself, It's proven to be 100% reliable thus far in the 14 months that I've had it, and I've been averaging 50 MPG or so. It definitely is worth it, at least for me, since I commute about 45 miles a day round trip.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask me. If you want an independent assessment, john1701a.com has a lot of info on it from a owner. The group groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ has a lot to offer as well with many helpful people.

Finally, since this is /. after all, there's a growing subculture dedicated to "hacking" the prius (eg, installing MP3 players that integrate with the onboard touchscreen system, or even wiring video input into the screen, installing cameras for seeing when you back up, etc... :-) )