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Alternative-Fuel Vehicle Recommendations?
Ellen Spertus asks: "My husband and I lease a pure electric GM EV-1, which we love, and need to replace our second car, a conventional Honda Accord, which recently died. We'd get a second EV-1, but GM has stopped making them. I haven't been able to find any available all-eletric car with the range (>=50 miles roundtrip) and speed (>=65 mph) that I need. Does the Slashdot community have any experience, wisdom, or advice on choosing an alternative fuel car?"
"I'm currently considering:
- Toyota Prius, a hybrid sedan
- Honda Insight, a hybrid two-seater
- Honda Civic GX, a compressed natural gas (CNG) powered sedan
Biodiesel is one alternative energy means that I think has real potential. Apparently there's all sorts of new grants available for folks wanting to get involved.
Just don't try to start that french fry grease up on a cold morning.
. We've got computers, we're tapping phone lines, you know that ain't allowed - Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime"
The The Honda Civic Hybrid ? It uses gas and electric, and gets pretty sweet mileage, plus its battery is self charging....
...but what about the Flintstones car? Methane emissions were low and it ran on calories. =)
Hybrids are more eco-friendly than pure electric cars in most regions of the country. Where does all that electricity come from, after all? A wall socket? No, a coal-burning plant. Ditch your coal-burning vehicle for an eco-friendly Honda Insight.
Many cars can be converted to run on Natural Gas. Ask someone locally with a car that runs on it where they got theirs done.
Just note that you'll probably lose a lot of trunk space unless you want to risk running out of Natural Gas between trips.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
I would buy a CNG car tomorrow. But I live in NYC and pretty much all the CNG stations are owned by Brooklyn Union Gas and they do not resell to individuals.
I would go with the Toyota.. I see many of them in NYC being used by the NYC MTA and other utilities
My business partner bought a Honda Insight a couple of years ago, so I am fairly familiar with his experiences. He enjoy driving it; he says that it takes some practice to learn the light touch you need to get it from 50 mpg to the mid 60s, but not hard.
The car routinely gets heads to turn, and he says that the resale value is high enough that even with only 2 years paid on the car he has equity (rather than being upside down.) I have no first-hand knowledge of the other vehicles.
If you live in the Midwest, it's very feasable to use a conventional gasoline car, just fill it up with ethanol. It burns cleaner, hotter, and more effeciently than traditional gas. More importantly, you will be supporting a fuel source that can be grown out of the earth, and unlike oil, you won't be giving your money to a foreign dictator or Texas oil-baron.
You could feel just as smug in one of those as you do in an electric car, just for different reasons, and you could still burn people off at the lights !!!
...is that they all look like ass.
I actually semi-considered getting an Insight until I saw the fucking thing. It's hideous! It looks like a squashed milk carton. The one I saw was barf-green, too, which didn't help matters much.
I ended up getting a 3-series instead, which not only doesn't look like ass, but also has no problem going over 65. (I guess I'm a Bad Person for using a gasoline-powered car though.)
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
If I recall correctly, the modified delorean in BTTF2 ran on trash courtesy a device called Mr. Fusion.
You may want to look into that.
There's also a civic model that's a hybrid (like the insight) for 2003.
Civic Hybrid
I'm a very happy owner of the Toyota Prius... I've actually gotten about 55 MPG in city driving, assuming I'm not in a hurry, above even the manufacturer's figures. It has been 100% reliable thus far.
/. after all, there's a growing subculture dedicated to "hacking" the prius (eg, installing MP3 players that integrate with the onboard touchscreen system, or even wiring video input into the screen, installing cameras for seeing when you back up, etc... :-) )
I was considering the Insight, but it's only two seats, and two doors as you mentioned, so I decided to go with the Prius, as it's basically the same size as any other compact sedan.
I was looking into pure electric and gas cars, but decided not to at this time, because sometimes I like to take long-distance trips (eg, between the Bay Area, and LA, or to Nevada/Las Vegas) and there are no electric or gas refueling stations for long stretches outside urban areas, making long-distance road trips impossible with these vehicles' current range.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ It might be useful for you as well, although it's geared more towards current owners.
As for the car itself, It's proven to be 100% reliable thus far in the 14 months that I've had it, and I've been averaging 50 MPG or so. It definitely is worth it, at least for me, since I commute about 45 miles a day round trip.
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask me. If you want an independent assessment, john1701a.com has a lot of info on it from a owner. The group groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ has a lot to offer as well with many helpful people.
Finally, since this is
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
This one seems to fit the bill, but it just blows away the others in the style department. Too bad that breathy carburated engine sound is replaced with, well, nothing...
http://www.renewables.com/ElectricSpyder.htm
If you are willing to buy a hybrid car, get either the Honda Civic Hybrid or the Toyota Prius.
The nice thing about a hybrid car is that not only do you get extremely low emissions (both cars I mentioned meet the world's toughest standard for gas-powered automobile engines, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) Super-Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (SULEV) standard), but you can refuel from any gasoline station and get way over 400 miles between fillups.
Note that the Prius does take some getting used to though. The instrument panel is located on the center of the dashboard, the acceleration and braking on the Prius feels a bit different than a regular car in many ways. Mind you, the Prius has excellent interior room and a surprisingly roomy trunk, not a mean feat with space needed to hold the batteries.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
I took a test drive at the local Saturn dealership and, well, I was amazed at the smooth (and very powerful) acceleration. I had expected anemic performance and what I got was a rather wild drive through the city. While the need to recharge the battery and small size may be serious drawbacks, the sheer joy of taking this car for a spin really made me think about applying for one.
It is disappointing that electric cars are not yet economically viable. Just take one for a test drive and you will see that there is a lot more work to be done in improving personal transportation.
from this site:
HEVs have several advantages over conventional vehicles:
Unlimited range, abundant cheap fuel, eco-friendly "exhaust," low maintenence, and a really expansive sunroof!
Get a motorcycle with a hack. A used GoldWing with a sidecar will set you back less than $20,000. It runs on regular fuel, and will likely get between 35-40 mpg. You can use the carpool lane solo. You should get almost 200 miles to the fillup and hitting 65 is no problem. Breaking the ton with a hack should be doable.
An electric car is not an alternative fuel unless all of the power from your grid is via solar or wind (I don't count hydro, as this usually comes from a dam that disrupted local flora/fauna).
You may also want to consider one of the many turbo-diesel cars available. Gas mileage comparable to the motorcycle with more crash-worthiness.
In addition, there are many other CNG vehicles available than the Honda. At least there were. Two that I know of are the Ford Crown Vic. and the Ford Taurus. It's possible these are only available for fleet sales.
Check out corbin motors for an interesting vehicle called the sparrow. It looks like there are TEN dealers in your area.
Finally, being in San Fran. with only ~50 mile round trips, what prevents you from using mass transit?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I would imagine that you might run into some problems if you try to drive cross country in a CNG car. In the big cities I'm sure that you wouldn't have too much of a problem finding the special gas stations but in you are running low on fuel in the middle of nowhere in the mid west it might be a challange.
My mom had her Prius for a year and loves it. Recently, they took a trip to Minnesota and the cost for gas during the trip was insignificant. While highway driving consumes more fuel due to aerodynamics, I have often been able to get more than 80mpg through the city. If you trick the accelerator pedal, you can get it to run off batteries for several minutes before the engine starts charging and giving a boost.
The only problem she had with the car so far was running over accident debris that slashed a rear tire. Other than that, its supposed to have an incredible warranty. Something like 10 years. Toyota knows this is an experimental car, so they want to know what kinds of problems we have. None so far.
Honda has a Civic Hybrid (new for 2003). This gives you more room and is more comfortable than the Prius
What did you do drive it into the Pacific? I leased 3 of them and they were Russian Trucks. Indestructible.
At any rate the Civic HX is a gas only and gets about 80-85% of the mileage of the Civic electric hybrid. The insight is more of a concept car - only two seats no back at all no storage really. The Prius is an Echo with a different powerplant to give you a sense of the bigger size.
Toyota is supposed to be delivering a hybrid next year if I remember correctly. Probably based on a Corolla floorpan.
First, the Corbin Sparrow really seems to taking hold in places like Los Angeles and to a lessor degree Atlanta.
However, the lowest emissions vehicle around is a bicycle. I mean this in all seriousness. The Bay area has a uniquely nice bicycling climate, and since you already have one car, you don't have to give up the occasional hauling-of-big-stuff cars are good at. And don't underestimate the health benefits of such daily exercise. I love it since you don't have to take extra time out of your day just to go to the gym.
In the Bay Area, there's even a service to shuttle bicycles over the Bay bridge for $1.
After a year of driving it (on the rare occasions when I can get it away from my wife) it's still an utterly satisfying car, with super-ultra-low emissions (SULEV) and high gas milesage as icing on the cake.
Society of Automotive Engineers voted it best engineered car of 2001. I think it's the car Dilbert would drive.
The Honda Civic hybrid is the most direct competition. The Prius transmission is more elegant and *may* last longer, and the availability of pure-electric drive means the engine never needs to do destructive low-speed operation once it's warmed up. You may prefer the feel of the brakes on the Civic, and in ten years I bet it's easier to find Civic parts than Prius parts.
A friend of mine just saw a Ford Think in LA the other night. Looks like something you should consider with those others.
P
Check out the auto part of Ebay. Just last month I saw a CNG converted 2000 Ford Aerostar with 10,000 miles sell for $6,500. Sale was in California.
Just make sure you can get CNG where you are going. Other than that, BioDiesel is a good alternative.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
http://www.acpropulsion.com/
.
Alternate Fuel (especially for cars) is dominated by the industries that already sell the "regular" mode of
Let's say there ARE grants available to research new technologies...who do you think picks them up? Who hires more lobbyists? Who buys/gets more time at alternate fuel seminars?
This all sounds like a 'no-duh' scenario, and this isn't another argument for open source, but grants by the government need to belong to the public. In addition, those grants need to be publicly accountable - no, we don't want you dusting off research done during the 70's oil crisis, and suggesting that the grant paid for that.
I recommend you look into VW's TDI engine powered cars. The turbo diesel Golfs and Jettas get 40 - 50+ miles per gallon, have more than enough power to maintain 100+ mile per hour speeds on the highway, have loads of torque to keep that 0-60 time below a minute ;) and are damn nice cars, amenities and luxury wise.
Plus, they are very reasonably priced, considering the fuel savings.
Take a look, you'll be surprised how many misconceptions you had about diesels once you ride in one.
-- Mesmer is the Dairy King Remove your panties to email me.
Also, the new Civic Hybrid is a full five-passenger hybrid sedan, which really means that there's no reason anyone (who doesn't need a minivan) can't get a hybrid vehicles these days. The Prius and Insight, due to their smaller size, get better mileage, but at 45 mpg city and 50 mpg highway the Civic isn't bad either.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
have you looked into diesel engines? they get very high mpg and will go well over the 65mph limit
its not electric but you might wanna have a look at them
I'm gearing up to convert an gasoline powered car to run on ethanol. I plan to make my own fuel, too. But that might be more of a project than you're up for.
You might also consider leasing something for a few years until the first crop of fuel cell vehicles becomes available. Things are moving very quickly now. Peugeot may have something ready for market by 2005.
--
Socrates was asked where he was from. He replied not "Athens," but "The world."
I'd drive one of them tiny cars - on a closed course, or maybe a big parking lot. On the expressway though, I want some mass on my side. I don't want to be a speedbump for some retard in a Ford Behemoth. So you drive the nice little car - I'll be in the minivan.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
I have had a honda insight for about 4 months, gets great gas mileage ~65 mpg driving 100 miles per day in the Bay Area. The street noise is a little worse than most cars but it really isn't that bad. It's great getting close to 700 miles on one 10 gallon tank of gas. Saves lots of money.
A new VW Beetle Diesel running on biodiesel would be very enviro friendly. There are bio diesel pumps in San Fran and the new diesels are cleaner burning and warrentied for use with biodiesel.
I've done a bit of research in my quest to find my next car and here's what I found:
-The current hybrid vehicles, IMO, offer a false ecomony due to their higher sticker price and uncertain disposal/replacement cost for the batteries +/- 8 years down the road.
-Looking at the Honda lineup it would make more sense economically to purchase the Civic HX Coupe or any other of the other non-hybrid Civics (or 4 cylinder Accords for that matter).
-Take a look at Intellichoice.com and fueleconomy.gov and do some calculations to determine the real, long term cost of a number of other vehicles (Ford Focus, Honda, Toyota, Saturn, etc)and see how it stacks up to the hybrids.
-The one caveat is that you need to know what happens what it is time to replace the batteries on a hybrid car.
-Lastly, check local rebates for buying a hybrid vehicle in your area, that might make up the initial cost difference in buying a hybrid vehicle.
Good luck!
My sister's car went to that great front yard in the sky after receiving enough damage for the insurace company to total it. She's had a Prius for a couple months and loves it. She lives in Grand Rapids, MI, so winter may be another matter (how well battery operation works in extreme cold) so far she's only having to put gas in about every three weeks (i'm pretty jealous, my Dakota needs feeding at least once a week, I live in the Santa Cruz area and know well the price of gas of which the author writes) and she figures a trip across the state, to Midland, once in a while into that. Pretty impressive.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Many people who drive electric vehicles do so because they believe that since they are zero-emission, they do not pollute. However, that is not the case. Remember, the power company that supplies your power to charge the car most likey does so by consuming natural resources (coal, oil, natural gas) or using nuclear power (which has concerns of its own). In fact, you may actually end up polluting more that a convensional vehicle. While the Insight, Prius, and Civic Hybrid are quite nice, I would recomment the Nissan Sentra CA. It is PZLEV (partial zero-emissions vehicle) and is the only SULEV vehicle on the road. The only caveat is that it is only sold in California. Nissan claims that this car pollutes less driving 20 miles than a regular car just sitting in the garage. Definately worth checking out.
--- At my sig, unleash hell.
Simple.... get a horse.
The Jetta TDI has better mileage than the Civic hybrid.. in fact i believe it has the best mileage for any vehicle that still uses a fossil fuel of any sort.
http://www.vw.com/engine/index.htm?locnav=jetta
you actually feel safe in these little contraptions? Ride on hippies...
pronoblem
...you cant run a car on the "Slashdot effect". If you could, all you'd have to do is post a link to your car to refuel!
-Ed
docbrown.net
Graphic Design, Web Design, Role-Playing Games...all the good stuff
Ed Wedig
Graphic design services
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At last check, this benefit was not available to hybrid electric vehicles. Especially in a large metro area like San Francisco or Los Angeles this perk alone can pay for itself.
The California Air Resources board provides a list of vehicles eligible for the carpool lane perk - choose carefully because not all alternative fuel vehicles are eligible!
A good resource to learn more is NGV.ORG (I've linked to google's cache... this is a small box, please don't hammer our server.) which provides a list of cofunding opportunities available for natural gas vehicle owners, including tax breaks and rebates from the state of California.
Good luck in your search!
Hi,
;) Biodiesel is actually technically non-toxic and very hard to burn, and IIRC can be drop-shipped anywhere, so I _THINK_ you could even have it delivered to your house in large drums.. It's expensive (~$3/gal) but it may be worth it to you if you want to contribute to (a)saving the ozone layer and/or (b)keeping US$ out of the hands of despotic Arab states (and their terrorist pawns)..
Hybrids really don't count IMHO as 'alternative fuel' vehicles, since they use two fuels that are exceedingly ordinary: gasoline and electricity. They should qualify for partial EV credit, and they're great for reducing fuel consumption, but without E85 they just aren't 'alternative fuel'.
I would recommend a late-model Volkswagen diesel and biodiesel as a true 'alternative fuel' vehicle. Diesels are more efficient, create less CO2 and other greenhouse gases, and last FOREVER. I just recently purchased a Mercedes diesel with 362000 miles on it, and I expect to get at least another 130000 miles on it with proper care and feeding. My car can't take 100% biodiesel without some fuel-line upgrades (bio eats rubber away since it's more oxygenated than petro) but any diesel since 1994 can take 100%. Another option, particularly in colder climes or with older cars, is B20, which is 20%bio/80%petro. Biodiesel doesn't contain sulfur, and is naturally oxygenated enough to prevent smelly particulate exhaust. In fact, tailpipe exhaust smells like french fries
Couple interesting Wired links on biodiesel:
here and
here
Even non-biodiesel is a better global environmental choice than gasoline/petrol since it's less intensive to refine. Diesel creates more NOx, large-particulate exhaust and sulfur (which lead to smog and acid rain), but the balance of impact is in its favor overall due to the efficiency of diesel engines. Also, if we could press for low-sulfur diesel, NOx could be handled with catalytic converters.
Oh, did I mention that biodiesel can be made from any biological substance that contains triglycerides? Hempseed, soybean, even used cooking fats can be 'cracked' into biodiesel, leaving glycerin. What to do with the glycerin though, that's the main Q...
Does the Honda have a dead engine that's not worth fixing? If so, consider pulling the engine and replacing it with an electric plant, like this guy did. There's not much in the way of off-the-shelf electric cars (the EV-1 was obviously GM's attempt to prove that they're too expensive to sell) but there's a thriving community of people doing EV conversions.
Corbin sells an electric-only model, the Sparrow; they were in the Jet Li movie, "The One", in the final scene about "the cleanest city in America":
Sparrow's Specifications
* Onboard battery charger
* Three-wheeled vehicle registers, insures and parks as a motorcycle
* 1350 lbs. curb weight, 72-inch wheel base, 57 inches vehicle height
* 70 mph top speed, 20-40 mile range
* $14,900 retail price
The Sparrow II has a 30-60 mile range and a $16,900 retail price. Corbin also advertises a gas-powered car, the Merlin, with "a 300 to 400 mile range on a tank of gas and a projected 70 to 90 miles per gallon", but it won't be out until the fall of 2003.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Check out the Ford Think.
http://www.thinkmobility.com
It's completely electric, and the next version is supposed to have a top speed of 65 (currently it's 55). I met a guy with one, and he said it was great. The best is you can park it almost anywhere since it's so small (about the size of those European SMART cars).
I've owned a 2000 honda insight http://www.insightcentral.net for almost two years now, and love it. 68 mpg in the mountains of colorado. 700 mile range with a 10 gallon tank. Every day someone asks me about it, they are drawn to it's exotic space pod looks. And the best feature: a total geek chick magnet. How many other cars can you say that about? If you need more seats, go for the prius or the hybrid civic. But either way, enjoy the acceleration, efficiency and regeneration of an EV with the range and simplicity of a gas vehicle. I go so long between fuel ups that I forget which side the gas cap is on.
fortune: You die cold and alone
Hello? Has anyone seen or heard of the Toyota RAV4-EV? http://rav4ev.toyota.com/consumer/rav4ev_0_home/ra v_home.htm Range of ~100 miles, available in the Bay Area, roomy, 65mph+, looks like it meets Ellen's requirments. You could be really cool and install solar cells to charge it (like http://www.solarwarrior.com).
I've put about 11,000 miles on my Prius in the first year of ownership. About half of them are highway miles on roadtrips; about 10% of them are short (1-2 mile) hops in town. Its lifetime fuel economy is about 48MPG. Range is about 500-600 miles. On the highway it consistently gets over 45 MPG (and I'm not gentle on the throttle -- 70-80 MPH on the level, and I floor it when I'm crossing the Rockies -- I live in Colorado). In town it gets 35-38 for the first mile or two, until the engine is warm -- then more like 48-52.
The Prius has no transmission at all -- just a second differential that shunts power between two electric motors/generators and the engine. (How it works). It's all drive-by-wire: the gas pedal is just a rheostat connected to the drive computer.
The engine has a lot of cool stuff to it: an off-center crankshaft, variable compression ratio, and (ISTR) noncircular pistons. Because of the differential it runs at more or less whatever speed the computer wants, regardless of how fast you're going.
For me (in Colorado) a pure EV was right out because of the low energy density of batteries -- it's hard to climb mountains in a pure EV. The Prius battery is used for load leveling on the engine (gas engines run best when the load is conditioned). Climbing over about 2000 feet vertical at freeway speeds drains the battery, but the computer handles it gracefully and the car just slows down to about 55 mph (on a standard 7% freeway grade). Conversely, coming down more than about 1000 feet of altitude will fill the battery to the top from regen braking, and again the computer does the Right Thing, using the engine as a conventional compression brake rather than blowing up the battery pack.
So even though the Prius isn't designed for mountain climbing it works acceptably under even strenuous climbing conditions. The interior is roomy and holds five people with no trouble. The trunk is adequate. The ride is quiet, and the gas mileage sure doesn't stink. Cornering is very good: tight turn radius and surprising traction given the high-mileage tires. Clearance is adequate but low: it's 4 inches under load, though the bottom 2 inches is just a flexible plastic air dam -- so you can get over 5" high obstacles without killing the car.
The Insight gets better gas mileage, looks cooler, and has better acceleration when you actually want it (though I imagine Prius ROM mods will come out one day that boost the acceleration -- the computer really does use conservative settings), but it's also really tiny -- the Insight is more of a "geek sports car". Toyota went out of their way to make the Prius look-and-feel like a basic (if plush) family car, and they succeeded.
Get any of the VW TDIs. 40+MPG, uses the cleaner burning Diesel fuel, and has a good power curve.
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It looks like you're looking more at an alternative-drivetrain (Hybrid or electric) rather than alternative-fuel (CNG/Hydrogen/M85) car.
As to alternative fuel - Biodiesel has been mentioned.
Regular engines can be converted to CNG with relative ease - I once saw a Dodge Spirit (same car I drive) with a CNG fillup. Try to find a design where the fillup connector (big ball-shaped thing in the case of this car) doesn't stick out - it's ugly.
Engines can also be converted to use M85 (85% methanol, 15% gasoline), but it's not really worth it. M85 is 15-25% cheaper per gallon, but has only 50% of the energy density. Also, methanol is VERY corrosive, so significant portions of the engine have to be replaced with corrosion-resistant parts. Chrysler made a few M85-capable cars (the FFV version of the Dodge Spirit/Plymouth Acclaim and minivans), and replacement parts for the FFV versions are nearly impossible, if not completely impossible, to find.
Or wait for the likes of the Escape HEV - 40 MPG in an SUV body, pretty amazing. I'd like to see the middle ground - All of the current hybrids and electrics are tiny little ugly pieces of junk. I want a full-size hybrid sedan that looks just like its gas-powered brethren, or a hybrid minivan.
Of course, the question is, WHY do you want to go alternative fuel? These days there are far worse things for the environment than modern cars - IC engines have come a LONG way in the areas of emissions control. You're not going to save any money - Electricity costs are skyrocketing, and it's been shown that in the end, pure electrics pollute more. (While coal-fired power plants produce less emissions per kilowatt, by the time you factor in all the transmission/charging losses, you're polluting more). Hybrids get insane gas mileage, but at the moment the technology isn't mature enough. You're going to be paying far more in maintenance costs for your unconventional design.
I'm not saying that IC engines are here to stay forever, just that hybrids are just plain not viable yet and won't be for a few years.
If you think Honda cares about the environment, you're wrong. http://www.lemonaidcars.com/secret_warranties.htm - Their emissions control systems were so bad from '95 to '97 that they were FORCED by the EPA to repair any emissions problem with those model years for free - And Honda will fight you all the way on those repairs until you threaten to call the EPA on them. The Insight/Civic HEV is just damage control. If they really wanted to benefit the environment, they'd focus on large vehicles first, where hybrid technology can make the biggest difference. (GM had statistics that if one medium-sized city had their buses replaced with hybrids, it would be better for the environment than if all Civics sold in a given year were hybrids. Which is why they're focusing on buses first - You don't see it much, but GM is pushing hybrid technology research VERY heavily. Same with Ford - Their first hybrid release will be the Escape HEV.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Cute little squashed lemony thing. Only one seat though, and only enough cargo space for about one sack of groceries or one briefcase.
Here's his website.
If you post it, they will read.
Need a small fission reactor to charge a battery that runs a large electric motor..
.. its just that the man wont LET us do it.. cant take away all that tax money on oil...
Shove that into a REAL car.. end of problem.
Dont tell me it cant be done
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Disclamer: I own one of these wonderful lil' diesel beasts, so I may be biased.
:-)
The TDI powertrain that VW has avalable in the Golf, Jetta, and New Beetle may not be as efficent as the hybrids (we are talking about a difference of 10 mpg at most here) But they have the advantage of, as someone earlier put so eloquently, not looking like total ass.
They also have NO trouble hitting 100 mph, and do it without slaying the fuel economy. You loose a little of your milage if you throw biodeisel into it, but it requires no modifications, and your emmisions go from 'low emissions vehicle' to 'why not just breathe outta the tailpipe.' (well maybe not THAT good.. )
But on biodeisel you are able to completely remove all use of fossil fuels entirely. I have never had an issue with my TDI starting in the dead of winter here in the great white north (-25C)
At the very least, go drive a TDI, they are wonderful, powerful, clean engines.
And the cars they are in dont look like ass
I dont know about the others but the civic is definately not a good deal unless your gas is crazy expensive. If you get the civic (which is QUITE a bit more than a regular civic) it would take you a VERY long time and a LOT of driving out out-weigh the cost of the battery. Also, I don't believe Honda has prices posted for the battery that will eventually have to be replaced. I wouldn't be surprised if it was around $5k. This means that you are spending MUCH more for a shitty little civic... just go with a base civic or a different hybrid vehicle.
-phraud
"Toyota is planning on become the first auto maker to market a pollution-free vehicle featuring a hydrogen-powered fuel cell engine. The FCHV-E will begin selling in Tokyo next summer for about US$75,000. The launch will be limited to Tokyo as that is the only city which will have hydrogen refuelling stations. The FCVH-4 can reach speeds up to 150 kph, and can travel 250 kms between refuelling." (Tokyo Shimbun)
jungle is massive
Fall at the latest. I believe its four wheel drive AND is capable of 40 miles per gallon.
I've also heard good things about Honda's hybrid.
Other things to consider:
If you have a lot of "Stop & Go" traffic like what we have here in the Detroit area, a hybrid might be what you want. Parallel hybrids offer engine and electric motor acceleration simultaneously, while Series hybrids act more like locomotive powertrains, where the engine can be "super-tuned" for a smaller RPM range.
If you are more likely to be a "cruise control" driver, maybe an electric car like the EV-1 is more your style. I'm told that the EV-1's extremely low aerodynamic drag allowed it to achieve a top speed near 140 MPH merely by disabling a governor. (obviously driving like this cuts into battery life)
If you need to impress people at the local street races, best bet is to stick with old-school internal combustion technology. The new Corvette and Cobra Mustang are lookin' mighty nice :-)
Here's the Honda website on the hybrid civic.
I test drove this model a few weeks back, and it was an absolute pleasure.
The best part? Pulling up to a red light, and sitting there in complete silence, without wasting any gas. Ahh...
I have a running bet with some friends. They claim that Hondas are the most reliable cars in the world. I strongly disagree but I'd like to see some numbers. How many miles did your honda have and what was it's cause of death?
Thanks!
Matt
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
http://www.thinkmobility.com/homeUS.asp?TID=661439
Two alternatives that I would seriously consider in addition to the options that have already been discussed here are the Corbin Sparrow (http://www.corbinmotors.com/sparrow.htm) which is a one-seater all electric made in California, and the Volkswagen TDI diesel engine equipped cars. The advantage of the VW TDI is that you can have a car that gets 50 MPG without any particularly exotic technology or expensive batteries. It supposedly doesn't have sooty exhaust and is a peppier engine that the gasoline model. They've really refined this system since it's so popular in Europe. It's cheap, reliable, and as fuel efficient as gasoline hybrids. VW makes the New Beetle, Golf, Jetta, and Jetta Wagon with the TDI option. The Corbin Sparrow is a very exciting commuter vehicle that, although a little weird looking, is certainly worth checking out too, especially if you like entirely electric solutions. One other option you might check out is the electric Toyota RAV4. I think these may also be available in California. -Andrew
I test drove the Prius but ended up buying a 2003 Corolla S because it felt more comfortable & performed better on the highway. Maybe in a few years hybrid cars will perform as well as gas-only cars and won't cost too much more, and when that happens I'll probably buy one.
Electric cars are not as environmentally friendly as the Eco Extremists would like us to believe. First most electricity is generated using one of three environmentally unfriendly methods; Hydrodynamic, Hydrocarbon and Nuclear.
Hydro electric is the long term safest method of generating electric power. However, due to recent environmental regulations such as the endangered species act, it is very unlikely that any new sources for Hydro power will emerge. In addition, existing Hydro plant are very likely to come under greater threat severly impacting the amount of energy produce.
Hydro Carbon based plants (Coal, NG, and Petrol) are nearly toxic polution free. Nearly isn't enough for Eco Extremists. In addition, these plants do release a huge amount of C02 a noted greenhouse gas. Beware of global warming and all that.
Nuclear power is fairly expensive and quite "dangerous". While the process of generating power from these plants is quite polution free (no gasses, no emmissions in theory)the hazardous waste that is generated is quite deadly and needs longterm storage.
If you don't take into consideration what it takes to generate power, electric cars look good. Otherwise they look like foolish version of the cars they are supposed to replace.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
The Honda Insight is a neat car, there are serious problems with it though...
The battery pack is replaced often.. If you get one get the hyper-extended warrenty, as you will be replacing that battery pack many many times.. my friend has had his 18 months and has replaced his 3 times.... and from what I hear this is not uncommon for insights that are used as a daily driver in anyplace that is not 70-72degF all the time. winter causes the packs to die horribly.
weight limit.. I CANNOT ride in his car (Ok I'm a fat ass..) as I with him exceed the car's weight limit completely... most any american couple will do this unless you are in souther california and live the bolimic lifestyle or are not normal weight (180 - 230 lbs typical american weight.)
finally , they ding really really easy. a pop can has thicker metal. dont lean on it, dont fart at it dont even look at it funny as it will ding/dent instantly.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Check this out
Too slow for the needs of the original post....but they build these things a block from where I live, so I have to link them.
Pretty cool little cars actually. Currently only good for residential areas and golf courses, but larger/faster versions are in the works.
Toyota is currently working on a Fuel Cell-Electric Hybrid (FCHV) SUV.
It is based on the Highlander and will be similar to the Prius.
The main difference being that it will use a fuel cell along with the electric motor instead of a traditional combustion enigine.
You can read the news brief here
Mexico City has ordered 40,000 of these air cars... http://www.globalstewards.org/aircar.htm
Hello Cruel World
This fall Honda will be releasing the Civic hybrid, and you also may be able to find the Honda EV in SoCal.
The brakes are hard on your feet. And don't order that big order of ribs at the drive-thru or it will tip over...
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
my chouce would be the hybrid electric civic or the vw tdi based cars, friends of mine say they are wonderful.
I want 2D games back.
I was almost willing to trade a little ugliness (Honda Insight) for some great gas mileage, but then I saw the car live at the dealership and decided it was really way too ugly for only getting 56/58 MPG.
The magic number European car makers have been aiming for is 3liter/100 km which is just over 70 Miles per galon. And there are some cars that will do this and not look quite as ugly:
Audi A2 1.2 TDI and VW Lupo as well as some little Citroen vehicle I can't find at the moment.
Bottom line:
1. these cars use Diesel to achieve this great mileage. U.S. diesel is too dirty (too much sulfur) to use in these cars.
2. There is no demand for these cars in the U.S. Please buy a Ford Excursion like all the rest of us brave citizens.
sorry.
I was looking at these cars 6+ months ago when I was in the market. I had actually ordered a Prius, but cancelled when the 3 month wait turned into a 6 month wait. I hear the wait time is much lower now, tho.
At the time, only the Insight was really competing with the Prius; the Civic hadn't come out yet. I was living in San Francisco too, and there were plenty of Electric vehicles from Saturn, Honda, and whatnot. The Prius was by far my favourite choice.
The Prius had 4 doors... the insight is TINY, as are most full-electric vehicles. Far more importantly, tho, was the cool touch-screen system that came with the car. Geek paradise, that. The GPS enabled versions are the same exact electronics that are on the Toyota RAV-4, but without the $3000 add-on price. The dealer I talked to said they didn't think Prius owners would pay the premium for the bundle, so it's apparently greatly discounted and rolled into the car's price. I'm sure you're paying for it, of course, but it's a nice deal.
The other great thing about the Prius is the grassroots community around it. Prius Mods, a Yahoo! Groups discussion group has been around for a while to discuss cool upgrades and features for the Prius. There are a variety of other good discussion groups out there that you can peruse through a well-placed Google search.
The only problem with these cars (and it seems to apply to any hybrid or non-gas car these days) is the driving experience... pickup, accelleration, noise (the engines are quiet, but the cars are very light and don't insulate road noise very well; it's a tradeoff), top speed, driving distance (well, the hybrids are GREAT for this; EVs aren't)... etc. But from the research I did six months ago, the Prius was king.
Does anyone know of an open source standard for electric cars? Perhaps something that specified standard parts (ie 12V batteries, 144V system voltage, etc).
If there is one out there I would be interested in working on it.
There are rumors that Corbin Motors is having increasing financial difficulty managing their Sparrow line of vehicles. Take a look at the Sparrow owners' Yahoo group to see some of the tension that's periodically surfaced over the past year. The last I heard, Corbin had STOPPED production of new Sparrows because they were running short of cash. They are currently focusing on producing their new Merlin roadster in an effort to get back into profitability. Personally I think they have a good chance at doing so - just be aware that the Sparrow may be a bit of an unsettled choice right now.
First a disclaimer: I'm unemployed right now (please check out my resume and hire me!) and driving a '68 VW camper. I can't afford a new car, but that hasn't stopped me from looking.
The Honda Insight is a fascinating car. It's as if Honda took every neat new technology they've been working on and crammed it in. Unfortunately, it's small--just a two-seater--and expensive--in the low $20Ks.
For that much money or less, you can get a Volkswagen with the TDI engine. The two-door VW TDIs (the Bug and the Golf) get better mileage than any other car sold in America except for the Insight. You can drive non-stop from Salt Lake City to Los Angeles on one tank of fuel, and that's a trip I personally would take at elast two days to drive. They're also among the least-polluting cars available, though there are cleaner ones out there. The Bug has (one of?) the highest safety ratings you'll find.
The catch? They're both turbocharged diesel engines. Wait! Don't run away! A diesel engine doesn't have to be the awful, smelly, polluting nightmare you're all thinking of. When properly engineered, as is the TDI, it's superior to gasoline:
But the real thing to do with one of these cars is run it off of biodiesel instead of petroleum-based diesel. Biodiesel is a high-cetane (the diesel version of octane) fuel made from vegetable oil. It's non-toxic; you could drizzle it over your salad...though it'd likely taste awful. The maufacturing process is very similar to the soap-making process; if you've ever made soap in your kitchen, you can make biodiesel in your kitchen. Biodiesel and petroleum-based diesel can be blended in any ratio desired simply by pouring them together.
The real advantage to biodiesel, however, is that every pound of carbon put into the atmosphere via the tailpipe had been previously removed from the atmosphere by the plant. No increased CO2! (Petroleum-based diesel pumps carbon from the ground and puts it into the air.) And, because the plant pulls more carbon out of the air for itself (instead of just its seeds), each pound of biodiesel results in a net decrease of atmospheric CO2.
In essence, biodiesel is the solar storage mechanism everybody keeps looking for. Run all those trains, trucks, and power plants from solar power (by way of corn and soy) and reduce dependence on oil all at the same time! All the infrastructure is already in place....
So, buy a car with a TDI engine, and you get incredible mileage and have the option of using either fuel you can find anywhere or a very environmentally-friendly fuel.
Now, if only somebody would give me a job, I'd go out and buy one....
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
(Kissing my Karma goodbye...)
Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
Smells like a steak, and seats thirty five?
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown
Canyonero...
Canyonerooo!
(Krusty)Hey hey!
The federal highway commision has ruled the Canyonero unsafe for highway or city driving.
Canyonerooo!
Twelve yards long, two lanes wide, sixty-five tons of American pride!
Canyonero...
Canyonerooo!
Top o' the line in utility sports,
unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!
Canyonero...
Canyonerooo!
She blinds everybody with her super-high beams,
she's a squirrel-squashin', deer-smackin', drivin' machine!
Canyonero...
Canyonerooo!
Yah!
Yah, Canyonero!
Yah!
Whoa, Canyonero!
Whoa!
Ignition timing and fuel injector timing have to be changed for alternative fuels. Not too difficult, but it's not as simple as filling up. Improper fuel mixture can kill your engine very quickly.
And that's not even taking into account that alcohol-based fuels are very corrosive and will destroy engine parts not made specifically to tolerate them. (Like the FFV Chrysler vehicles of the late '80s and early '90s)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Other notes: A hybrid (Prius, Insight, Civic Hybrid) does not qualify for an electric vehicle tax credit, but does qualify for a "clean fuel" tax deduction, for up to $2000 (you needn't itemize to take the deduction). A hybrid may or may not qualify you to single-passenger-drive in HOV lanes... in California, it does not. This is typically because hybrids (burning gasoline) are not regarded by the goverment as true "alternative fuel" vehicles.
Disclaimer: I own an Insight, have put almost 50k miles on it and overall I've averaged 74 mpg. That means I spend about half as much on gas as people driving a regular Civic. It is ULEV-rated for emissions and the Insight tops the list of the Top 10 or so most fuel-efficient cars you could ever get in the U.S. I love my car. You could say that makes me a bit biased.
Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?
All of the fryer oil is spoken for. There's a big market for used grease. Almost every restaurant has a contract with a grease buyer. The buyer removes it from the restaurant (sometimes for a fee, even) and sells it off to chemical blending companies.
It gets turned into conveyor lubricant for wet conveyors (soda bottlers, breweries, etc) and tire mounting lubricant. I'm sure there are a thousand other things it gets turned into as well.
Oh, and it smells fucking awful.
--
pants ahoy
Arizona tried something like this, but they started with regular vehicles and then gave tax credits to people who converted their vehicles to be hybrid gasoline and natural gas. If your state tries to do something like this, run for the hills. Arizona is at least $1US billion in the red because to these tax credits. They are trying to work the numbers to make it $1 billion. To sum it up, don't let your local gov't give tax credits for AFVs ... it'll end up costing more.
vodka, straight up, thank you!
If you lived in Europe you could get one of these. Unfortunately those of us stuck in the backwaters of the civilized world there's not a whole lot of choice. http://www.thesmart.co.uk/
Way more expensive, and there are no production models as of yet...I.E.: No pudding to find the proof in.
No Comment.
According to VW's site the TDI Manual only gets 49 MPG on the highway. Here is the link to the link to the specs. While the Civic Hybrid is rated at 51 MPG on the highway. The link (pdf) to the Civic's specs is here. Neither of these compare to Insight which gets 68 MPG, according to edmund's listed specs.
Now I'm not sure how you can say that the TDI has the best mileage for any vehicle that uses fossil fuel, when, it does not get the best mileage.
It should also be noted that the Jetta TDI burns diseal fuel instead of Unleaded gasoline. I do not, however, remember if diseal or unleaded burns cleaner.
Why do people believe that using electric vehicles is better for the environment than fossil-fuel powered combustion-driven ones? The electricity has to come from somewhere, and unless you live near Niagara Falls or some other Hydroelectric facility, your choices are Coal, Oil, and Nuclear as sources of electricity (wind and solar not being reliable enough or common enough to be mentioned), all of which have their own methods of polluting. I really would like to know this, because all I've been hearing for 10-20 years is "conserve electricity," and now people are finding new and exciting ways to waste it. I just cannot see how people are reconciling these facts with themselves. While having a car that has no emissions is a nice idea, electricity certainly isn't a zero-emission fuel source, unless, as I said, you are near a dam. Otherwise you're just centralizing the emissions to wherever the electricity is being produced.
If someone can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.
rooooar
The Honda Insight is a lovely peice of work.
Certainly as a Hybrid it's not the greenest solution (compared to an all-electric), but it fairs well (at nearly 70 Miles Per Gallon it's one of the most efficent Diesel engines in the world) and it has very quick acceleration for a Hybrid, and I think it still manages to look pretty sexy.
The real bonus is that although it is a Diesel/Electric Hybrid you never have to recharge! It automatically regarchages whenever you decelerate (IIRC). This means you can travel long distances, e.g. cross country, without worring about having to recharge.
Honda have been selling them at an 18,000 USD loss IIRC.
I don't own a car (mmm public transportation) but if I did it would be one of these.
I think the only downside would be lack of space, like a lot of regular environmentally friendly cars.
There are rumors that the next NSX will have electric assist as seen in the Honda DualNote (Acura DN-X) show car. It's still a year or two away, but if the rumors are true, we should see a 400+ hp supercar that gets 35-40 mpg. Let's see, if I start saving now, I might be able to afford one by 2010... image
Diesel engines have greater NOx emissions than most gasoline vehicles, plus vastly higher particulate emissions. I understand that both of these can be dealt with but you won't be able to buy a vehicle with such technology installed. If you are motivated by a desire to keep the air clean rather than carbon-abatement you are probably better off with one of the gasoline or CNG vehicles instead. People living in thinly-populated areas with large distances to travel would probably make the opposite selection, on the merits.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
When I was a kid, we had a Volvo diesel. The previous owner had installed a second tank. I remember a trip to Florida - we filled up once on the way. The new VW diesels look awesome...you should look at them.
Alternative fuel cars will not be developed seriously until the oil wells run dry. Until then, we will just have to continue financing terrorism by buying arab oil, or start riding bicycles.
How ya like dat?
My family had an old Civic.
New piston rings every 1-2 years
Slipping clutch that was ultimately its downfall (rearended trying unsuccessfully to pull out of a tollbooth)
We rented an Accord in California once. It was literally falling apart (less than a year old and the rear bumper was coming off) - I've seen quite a lot of other Hondas with improperly attached rear bumpers.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Way more expensive, and there are no production models as of yet...I.E.: No pudding to find the proof in.
erm, both cars are in production. in fact i could have bought a '99.5 Jetta TDI a while back but it just didn't have enough balls.. but it's still a sweet car.
and I read a review in the local paper that compared the two cars, and they found that they got better mileage in the Jetta.. so anypoop.
Go hawaii!! Go linux!! I can't get a stable enough windows machine to run nwn! I prefer linux, even with its surplus of bugs.
If you are in California, an area that was leasing EV-1's, then you can probably also find Toyota RAV4-EV's as well (I'm not so lucky).
The RAV4 is listed with a top speed of 78 mph and an average range of 126 miles per charge (although I've read a few people stating 140 - YMMV).
Unleaded burns cleaner, but the diesel will usually have lower carbon emissions. As always, YMMV (pun intended).
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
I recently had the pleasure of riding in one of these cars, and they're way nifty. Four of us drove from Washington DC to somewhere in central Pennsylvania and back again (about 4 hours at highway speeds each direction) on about half a tank of gas. It lasted a long time between tanks in the city too, even with all the stop'n'go driving of DC. I was *incredibly* impressed.
It had plenty of amenities too (CD player, AC, power locks and windows), rode quietly, was comfortable enough for a long trip, and didn't feel like it would blow away in a strong breeze. If I hadn't already purchased a new car 2 years ago, I would seriously consider one of these.
Of course, my opinion doesn't substitute for research, but on an aesthetic level I was happy as a passenger, and on a techie level I was all tingly at the thought of the reciprocating brake system recharging the batteries as we glided (glode?) to a halt.
GMFTatsujin
Take all the useless Linux junk and burn that then you should have enough fuel to last a long time, after all that is all that Linux is good for.
"The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
I don't know about Accords, but Civics have about the same half life as plutonium. Unless you're doing stunt work or competing on a racing circuit with a Civic, they'll run seemingly forever. I've had two, an '85 and a '96, and I loved driving them except for traffic jams. Lines of sight past the monster SUVs that litter the highways are poor and make for a boring, risky drive.
I have a 1993 Honda Accord with 158,161 miles. Other than normal maintenance (brakes, exhaust, oil changes) the only major problem I've had is a blown front balance seal (a known problem with the 93 Accords).
Of course, all hybrid cars still use fossil fuels. According to the EPA, the Jetta's combined MPG is only 45, which is about 10% worse than both Civic Hybrd and Prius (see this list of the all-time best mpg-getting cars).
Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?
I have had my Prius for about 4 months now... Got a brand new 2002 in Feb, there might be used cars available, but for the Prius a year old car was the same price as a new car. It goes 80+ MPH, gets around 50 MPG when I was commuting. Now I moved closer to work (that does a lot better for the environment anyway) and because it doesn't idle at low speeds on the interstate, only gets about 40 MPH when I actually drive it. The deal maker for me was the backseat. While the Insite gets better gas mileage, the lack of a backseat meant I couldn't take my daughter in the car... The Prius is an awesome car and I would recommend it to anyone that was willing to spend a few bucks to help save the environment
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
I've owned my Insight for just over a year. I drive 70 miles (one way Manchester, CT. to Hudson, MA.) to work on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and every other Wednesday.
My personal best is 800 miles on a single 10 gallon tank. You just can't beat that.
Comfortable car.
Fun to drive.
A definate winner
Between fertilizer, pesticides/herbicides and fuel required for cultivation, a gallon of ethanol yielding 77,000 BTU of energy requires inputs totalling about 131,000 BTU (if memory serves). In other words, it's a complete boondoggle.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
It depends on how many strangers you want to talk to...
I own a Honda Insight, and I would definitely recommend it. It stands out in traffic though. People ask me about it when I'm sitting at stoplights or gas stations, or wherever. Clearly the Civic Hybrid will blend in a bit better.
So if you want to lead by actions alone, I would get the Civic; if you get the Insight, expect looks and questions.
Phil
P.S. Pay no attention to the "uncomfortable" claims, I am 6'0" and around 210, and I have no problems with the car I drive everyday.
Check out the Honda Civic Gas/Electric hybrid. It gets ~50mpg and is a good quality car.
1. Bad signature
2. ?????
3. Profit
For our next vehicle, my wife and I are considering the Ford Escape Hybrid. Overly-wrought flash page without much detailed info, but they basically say it will be an gas/electric combo SUV that gets ~40mpg and they will have a 4wd option, which is something that we actually need and use regularly as an avid skiers and hikers. We need the cargo space for my two large dogs, which rule out existing hybrid solutions; We currently drive a Ford Explorer and await a more fuel-efficient yet not entirely anemic solution.
Also, we drive an all-electric vehicle which though outside of the poster's requirements, may warrant consideration for anyone doing short-haul driving in sub-35 mph zones: the line of vehicles from GEM
We have been driving one for about 3 months now and use it for commuting to our offices and to downtown Portland. Neither commute requires us to exceed 25mph.
It has more pick-up than you might think. In the rain, the vehicle does a pretty good job of keeping water off you (my model doesn't have doors). There are doors available, similar to what you would see on a Jeep CJ, as an aftermarket accessory. It is an ideal neighborhood car.
Here are answers to some of the common questions we get, often in traffic.
Q. What the hell is that?
A. A GEM electric car, manufactured by Global Electric Motors, a division of DaimlerChrysler Corporation. The specific model I have is the GEM E825 Utility Vehicle (Short Box).
Q. Is it street legal?
It is on streets with a speed limit of 35mph or below.
Q. How fast does it go?
A. 25 mph.
Q. How far can you drive it?
It varies based on the terrain you are driving it on and the ambient temperatures, but I have driven it over 15 miles on a charge. The stated range is 35 miles.
Q. How do you charge it?
It charges on household current.
Q. Stats?
A. From the GEM website
Curb Weight: 1160 lb. with batteries
GVW: 1850 lb. (Gross Vehicle Weight)
Width: 55 inches
Wheelbase: 71.1 inches
Length: 116 inches
Height: 69.5 inches
Turning Radius: 13 feet 7 inches
Q. Is it fun?
A. You betcha.
"An electric car is not an alternative fuel unless all of the power from your grid is via solar or wind (I don't count hydro, as this usually comes from a dam that disrupted local flora/fauna). "
Actually, hydro can be even worse than you suggest. If the resevoir behind the dam is shallow, the methane gas emissions from rotting vegetation can be quite staggering. The green house gas emissions can be higher per megawatt than from a coal-fired power station.
We've been far too restrained in this war on terrorism! Let's go conquer the Islamic world; then we can use the male slaves to haul us around in rickshaws and the female slaves, well I leave their good use to your imagination! ;)
--Richard
I was at a parade for the 4th of July and in the parade was an Elecric Porsche! This is a link to another person and their experiences.
So, why not go for the best?
No - I don't know how much Oomph the vehicle keeps
As other people have mentioned, diesel is something worth looking into. The Golf TDI gets gas milage up with the hibrids, plus you get much better torque(if you ever want to tow something, etc)
Insight:
max torque, 89 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm w/ CVT
max HP, 73 @ 5700 rpm
Prius:
max torque, 82 lb-ft @ 4200 rpm
max HP, 98 w/ engine and motor
Golf TDI
max torque, 155 lb-ft @ 1900 rpm
max HP, 90 @ 3750 rpm
That is all. Carry on. </transmission>
I would strongly consider a hybrid car, but the fact is, I can't fit in any of the ones currently out. I suppose that people who buy economy cars are the ones most likely to be interested in a hybrid, and manufacturers are starting off in that direction before moving on to other vehicle types, but are there other reasons why no hybrid vans and SUVs are in the works? Are there any problems with scaling up the technology?
Something tell's me that evrental's potato powered webserver just learned how to make crinkle cut fries.......
"Freedom of speech has always been the abstract red-headed stepchild of the Constitution"
-Suck
I am about to buy a car myself so I want to share some links you may find useful. I will personally buy a regular Honda Civic since that's all I can afford.
:)
1. If you want to see the greenest cars out there, and the meanest too, check out greenercars.com
2. If you are tight on your budget, consider getting the rare Civic HX, which has CVT transmission and is very fuel efficient. There are other makes that make cars with CVT, so you might want to look around.
3. Check out the site for compressed-air cars. Sounds funny, but they are already into production.
4. About the Honda Insight. I would seriously consider a Civic Hybrid instead. The Insight is definitely not comfortable, but ranks first on greenercars.com. Another thing about the Insight is that it is a very "political" car. Honda loses about $1000 on every Insight it sells. Just imagine the ad fees that you'll be charged if you buy one. Therefore, I won't be surprised if this model is discontinued after a few years. The Civic, on the other hand, is a much better competitor to the Prius and is definitely here to stay.
Good luck with getting a green car! We need more people like you and not the drive-an-11mpg-SUV people.
You've missed one of the best options currently on the market for electric car shoppers in California- Toyota has made the RAV4 EV available to the general public for lease or purchase (previously it was only available to fleets). I got one a few months ago and it's been great. Gets 80-100 miles range, max speed 78mph, has a backseat unlike the EV1. I miss my EV1, but the RAV4 EV is a pretty good car and I think it's the only compelling pure electric currently on the market for the general public. The one annoying part is that the RAV4 EV uses a small paddle charger, and there aren't as many of those as the large paddle ones that the EV1 uses. I've never needed public charging myself, but I don't know if that's an issue for you. I suggest checking with Toyota of Palo Alto about the car- they are one of the best RAV4 EV dealers in the area and know their stuff better than most.
On a semi-related note, in response to all those Slashdot readers who keep spouting the same crap everytime an electric car comes into discussion- yes electrics are cleaner even if you do have fuels like coal as the source (which is not a significant part of the power mix in CA) because it is much easier to clean fuel at one place than in every vehicle, and if you want to calculate environmental effects of the production of fuel, don't forget all the effects of making gas . Additionally, if you have the option of selecting your power source like we did (we chose Commonwealth Energy) you can in fact get your power from clean sources.
One note - a lot of mileage comes from driving style. I have a Honda Civic EX Coupe (EPA 29/35, I believe). This car has 127hp, and is fully driveable in heavy city driving (at least with the standard). When driving on the highway... ...I routinely get about 51-53 mph, which is far above rated. (And bear in mind that this is the highest hp civic from the year, '99, other than the performance Si.) And I feed it the recommended (low, 87) octane.
1) with cruise control on
2) at around 60-65 mph (under 3k rpm)
3) with the windows only partway down or up (and sunroof closed or tilted up)
In city, I tend to get 26-30, but my city driving style is more likely to involve hard acceleration. (Also, driving without A/C may not be an option for some climates. With A/C, but all of the other conditions listed above, I tend to get 38-42 highway reliably.)
Ethanol is a good idea, but I do feel compelled to point out that Archer Daniels Midland is both an Agro-Dictator AND an Agro-Baron!!!!
--Richard
Goody for you!
We're just so-so eco-logical!
feh..
t_t_b
I'm on PJ's "enemies" list! Are you?
If you plan on doing any long distance driving the Civic GX is definately not the car for you as most of the country does not have these special stations (I'm near the chicago area).
The Toyota, although it has the lowest fuel efficiency, is the more spacious than the Insight. It is also a safer car (assuming you drive on the freeway), which is very important.
I would never recommend the Insight, it is a terrible car considering the alternatives.
Another couple options are the Civic Hybrid (which uses unleaded gas), great mileage, reliability of a Civic, safety of a sedan, and spacious enough to haul a couple weeks worth of luggage for four (depending on how heavily you pack). Also there are going to be more hybrid SUV's and other larger vehicles: Ford HEV-2003, as well as a Saturn SUV-2004, Chevy Pickup-2004, Suburban-2005, and Dodge Ram Pickup-2005 , which will be great for those of us who want a bigger, safer car, while being good stewards of our environment.
Then there's my favorite, a Trek Bike.
In the Dilbert animated cartoon, he drove what looked like an EV1. Of course, it was equipped with the "Traffic Eliminator" missile launcher, an option that I have yet to find on any car, hybrid or otherwise.
--pick out an older but nice car that you like, and have it converted to cng "city gas". Most large municipal gas suppliers will do it or recommend which mechanic they use. I was living in atlanta until 4 years ago, atlanta gas light offered that service. Yes, it costs some scratch, around 3 grand total from what I remember, but you can have it done to a used vehicle, so save money that way. They even come to your home and install the 'filler up" assembly. The engines run real clean so they last longer, it's very good quality fuel, domestically produced, and by retrofitting you can pick out whichever vehicle you want.
and cool beans for putting your money where your ecological interests are. I don't own a throwdown dual althon 2 ghz 500 meg 4 dimensional video card "game" machine, but I DO own solar pv panels and etc and run on solar. I vote with my wallet as well. good luck to you!
TDIs do in fact have the best mileage.
Numerous real-world tests revealed that the TDI consitently turns in better mileage.
My Golf (now gone in favor of my 325iX ) got as high as 54 and never lower than 46 and I drove it HARD.
Honda now makes a Civic hybrid (competitor to the Prius) - it's just a Honda Civic with a hybrid engine.
:)
Details can be found at http://civichybrid.honda.com/
I personally think it's a much more attractive choice than the other options
We have a special program that allows you to operate certain vehicles in the carpool lanes, even as a single driver! This should not be overlooked because it's a huge benefit in San Francisco or Los Angeles to be able to use the carpool lanes. The catch is that not all vehicles qualify - in fact, of the vehicles listed by the original poster, only the natural gas Civic GX would qualify.
More information is available from the NGV.ORG Incentives page which provides a listing of tax benefits, rebates, and other incentives for natural gas vehicles.
The hybrid vehicles being mentioned by other posters DO NOT quality for this program, despite being extremely low emissions vehicles.
Comparison and environmental ratings of vehicles: http://www.greenercars.com/online.html
169,182 miles. 95 EX. Still going strong, only major repair was to replace original clutch around 140,000 miles. I certainly don't complain about the 30 mpg either. :)
# fuser -v
#
I've read that the human body's methane emissions are more harmful that most gasoline engines, when you compare them doing the same amount of work.
I drove a Golf Turbo Diesel from London to Edinburgh and back. I loved the engine on it. The golf got superb gas mileage. It also had great acceleration. They aren't joking when the name "turbo" diesel. I plan on buying a turbo diesel when I get back to the States. You can get the Golf, Jetta, and Beetle with a turbo diesel. I would highly recomend a tried and true diesel engine that gets great pickup over a new and untested hybrid or alternative fuel engine. Also, you should consider the body. A diesel engine can cary a conventional body frame. The hybrind and Alternate fuel engines use all sort of weight saving measures in the body to increase efficiency. In the long run a sturdy body will hold up longer. If you aren't planning on keeping the car for very long then why even get a fuel efficent car? After all you only see the savings in TCO after a few years.
The Volkswagen TDI engine (turbo direct injection diesel) gets about 49 mpg city. it's the most fuel-efficent non-hybrid internal combustion engine on the market. here's some linkage for you.
Just raise the taxes on crack.
Toyota RA4 EV - yes it's an SUV but the NiMH batteries are supposed to last 100,000 miles, maintenance free; and it gets 126 miles to the charge; and it has all the creature comforts. I think it's kindof ironic all this high-tech stuff is being put in an SUV. Just think how much better the range would be if they'd put the same powertrain in a sports car with good drag coefficient and low frontal area. But, as far as I can tell this is the best new EV that you can actually buy right now. Only in California, unfortunately. I presume for charging it uses the GM paddle system like your EV1 but haven't confirmed that.
You could just get a used one on ebay; I was very tempted to bid on this but decided to wait on an electric for now. Here's an electric S10 pickup. I test drove one of these once; it's a lot like an EV1, same technology in a pickup. Supposedly you can buy these in California too, but I'm not sure whether new or used. Otherwise they tend to show up as surplus from electric-company fleet programs now and then.
How has your service from GM been? I was tempted to buy one of these S10s but I figured GM has been acting like they want to forget that they ever had electric cars, so what are the chances of getting good service 5 or 10 years from now? And these things are too complicated to fix yourself, probably. Whatcha gonna do if the inverter fails? AC drives are not common in conversion EVs, and tend to be rather pricey.
Finally, if you're not on the EV mailing list, you should be. You will get a ton of good advice there; most of the subscribers are hard-core electric vehicle hobbyists who build their own conversions at home.
And congratulations on having a brain and being willing to put up with all the stupid naysayers out there, or the ones who keep repeating the same tired old objections about powerplants using fossil fuels (nevermind that they do it so much more efficiently than even the best IC engine) or "why don't you connect a generator to the wheels and make your own electricity." I'm always surprised how otherwise seemingly-smart people will laugh at you when you mention something about electric vehicles. Every new technology has to have its pioneers. And in the long term the earth isn't giving us much choice about switching away from fossil fuels anyway. This is why I do not advocate hybrid vehicles. You can conserve gas with those, but I think in any conceivable future there will always be some alternative way to generate electricity, so maybe electric cars are here to stay in one form or another.
Turn your extra calories into an alternate fuel...
You bring up a very good point.
In particular my friends are comparing the durability of a civic vs any of the V8 based Ford Mustangs produced from 1987 to current.
We all tend to agree that Hondas do indeed last forever when driven under normal conditions.
However, where we tend to disagree is that they claim that racing a Honda and a Mustang under semi-abusive conditions, the Honda will still outlast the Mustang.
I'm going off of personal experience driving Mustangs (never driving Hondas) but I've torn down motors that have been well-maintained with 150,000+ miles on them only to find that they still bear the original factory cross hatch on the cylinder walls and the cranks only need polishing and no grinding.
I guess in general, most motors will do quite well if you take care of them.
Thanks for the info though! Much appreciated!
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
in fact i believe it has the best mileage for any vehicle that still uses a fossil fuel of any sort.
My Suzuki motorcyle would get over 50MPG on the highway (as long as I kept it under 85mph). Even the Honda Goldwings with the 1.6L engines were rated at 50MPG on the highway. Many mopeds and scooters get even higher mileage, some in the 100MPG range. Of these, some don't qualify to be ridden on an interstate, but most are vehicles that require plates and license to operate.
eCycle (oops, is that a deep link?) is working on a hybrid motorcycle that gets 180MPG (using diesel by the way). Pretty cool machine, I'd love to try one out, but with a top speed of 80, it would barely keep up with traffic on NY/NJ highways...
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Have you ever tried to fit three people into the backseat of one of these? For a five hour drive?
I'm currently investigating minivans. (Try fitting two baby seats and a grownup into the back seat of any economy sedan.) Does anyone know of any high efficiency diesel minivans? There's a station with biodiesel not far from my house.
I also drive an EV1 in the SF Bay Area, and my lease is expiring in 6 months, so I have to start looking for another car. According to Saturn, GM has officially sent no word on renewing the leases, which in practice means they won't renew them. They do offer lease assumption programs, for you to take over a lease from someone else, but that only lasts 'til the lease runs out. (And, frankly, given how GM has killed the EV1 - saying they had no customers when they had waiting lists several months long, and simply refusing to manufacture enough to meet demand so they could say they only sold a few thousand without saying they only built a few thousand - makes me think twice about continuing to support them.)
The option I am leaning towards is Toyota's RAV4-EV. Top speed 78 MPH, range 125 miles. It reportedly leases for $477/month, a bit less than an EV-1. Sure, it's an SUV and not a sedan, but there aren't that many options for pure electrics under your criteria (which are similar to my own) if you're just a member of the general public, not managing a fleet of cars or something.
You know I'll be monitoring this topic too, to see what my own options are...
...and convert it to hydrogen. It appears you already have had the courage to be a pioneering consumer when you bought what was widely suspected to be an electric lemon. Unfortunately, just because your car doesn't put out any emissions doesn't mean the power plant it gets its electricity from doesn't put out any, so you you're essentially hiding in one part of the energy chain and ignoring the other.
The only other compromise is to get a hybrid and convert it to CNG for the lowest possible emissions.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get my bike tires refilled.
This comes down to define "cleaner".
Diesel generally has more particulate emissions, on the other hand you use a lot less per mile driven. So, take the jetta example, a jetta unleaded 4 might get 30 miles/gallon, but the jetta TDI gets 50 miles per gallon. So, for every 50 miles driven the unleaded puts out 1.67 gallons worth of emissions vs the 1 gallon worth the diesel.
So, then the question is whether you would rather have 1 gallon worht of diesel emissions or 1.6 gallaons worth of unleaded emission?
Your simple contribution will mean nothing until the government mandates the gas-guzzling motors are outlawed.
:)
Until such time, you're merely making it inconvenient for yourself to get around. Get a Corvette.
Want to feel good? Plant a tree.......
The State of California passed legislation in 1993 mandating that all dealers in California must have a ZEV (Zero Emmission Vehicle) available within ten years(2003). The manufacturers have fought this all the way to the top.
In preparation for actually having to have ZEVs they are getting prototypes out on the road. One prototype is the Ford Think City.
The Ford company does not seem to want to sell these, it is as if they will not make them available unless they are forced. There are a few dozen prototypes currently on the road, and Ford has talked about a launch on (conviniently) January 2003 right when the law might come into effect. These ZEVs, if they are let loose into the streets of California just may become popular, and that would be hard on the oil industry companies etc.
In case they are forced to release ZEVs they do have them ready, as do other manufacturers. So you might want to wait until January 2003, and a whole load of new ZEV might be available in California. Unless of course the courts throw out the legislation at the last moment.
Think Mobility
The theory is that electrical producers, being centrally located (and regulated) and large, can reduce the amount of pollution per kilowatt by improved processes and scale. There is some research on this and IIRC the conclusion is that there is a small net reduction in greenhouse gases, but definitely look it up.
;)
As far as practicality goes, I still feel biodiesel's a good alternative, especially for larger vehicles and power generation.
All I can say is, I put my $$$ where my mouth is.. No biodiesel-touting 15mpg-SUV-driving hypocrite me
these all electric cars are no more enviromentaly freindly than standard cars because coal is usually what the power plants use to generate the electricity to power your car.
Then I'm waiting for a Jetta TDI *hybrid*.
Since the Civic and Insight are gasolene hybrids, and a conventional Civic gets about ~30mpg -> ~50mpg, a TDI might get much better mileage with a hybrid electric system.
But in the meantime I'm considering the Civic because it gets more horsepower for only slightly less mileage.
GPL Deconstructed
And the reasoning is somthing more sociological than scientific. Pure Electric is all fine and dandy in theory. However, lets through in the the human factor, and because California (read LA and Area)is pushing these vehicles the most, we will use that portion of the world. And for people, the DINC, because they are the most likeley to be purchasing an new car.
The Idea is that everyone will recharge at night and, drive to work, finish recharging, then go home and be used to fill local high deman areas. Unfortunaly, what happened almost all of the time is that people go home, at about 5 o'clock, and plug in their cars, and start charging them, so that they can go out that night and do the movie thing, the bar scene, or whatever. Now you have the largest peak consumption time in the day growing to an even higher peak. This ofcourse has made the power transmission/generation shith their collective nickers. This makes the problimatic california even more so. This is one of the reason the major companies have stopped pushing it.
This still dosent bother CARB, even though the most in-efficeint sources are used at peak loads. These sources would be coal-fired steam plants in wyoming. Which is fine for california, they have moved their pollution across state lines.
The key is using state of the art stuff and non petrolium sources in conjunction. Current market level stuff uses brushless DC drives...ICK! Now here is some truely cool stuff.
Have you considered the Nissan Sentra CA? It's the cleanest gasoline-powered vehicle in the world and qualifies as a SULEV under CARB specifications. http://www.nissandriven.com/insideNissan/LookingAh eadArticle/0,9401,533,00.html
I hadn't known about hacking the Prius. That is way cool. With the information in your message, I found this page on the MP3/CD hack Thank you.
I mean seriously, is your life worth a few mpg of gas? The hybrid and electric cars Ive seen would crumple at the hands of a shopping cart, let alone a head on collision with an Escalade. 80 mpg is great, but I wouldnt feel safe in one of those things on the highway.
I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!
The problem is that in the two cars cited, they can both average 50mpg...
So if a Civic hybrid and the Jetta TDI can both hit 50mpg, then the Jetta will have more particulate emissions than the Civic...
Me, I'm waiting for a TDI hybrid for the best of both worlds...
GPL Deconstructed
Why not try a car powered by compressed air.
It looks like MDI is finally rolling these machines into production. They have a range of 120 miles, (or 10 hours in urban conditions) and have a top speed of 60-75 MPH. I remember reading about this technology in WIRED a few years ago, and it looks like it might be ready to go!
void theoremProver(){
print "this product is correct"
}
Why do you think you need to pay more and get an unsafe smaller vehicle? Just because we can't argue with the SUV's crowd doesn't mean you have to go solo. I plan on driving more and using the equivalent amount of fuel as an SUV's with my compact car. Let's drive the gas price up together. Don't be a fool, buy a big SUV.
Almost....
- 2, 00.html
Ethanol can be made from feed grain waste (when grains are raised for vitamins/minerals and the starch is discarded), and there's a net gain of ~16000 btu according to DOAg..
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46045
Still, E85 can't be used in most auto engines: it's too corrosive. Cars that can use E85 typically state it in the owner's manual or somewhere...
The TDI engine also has supposedly cleaner emissions than a standard diesel engine. This is because the air is injected in a way that makes it swirl. Thus, the fuel will mix faster with the air as it is injected, leading to a more complete burn. This means cleaner emissions and better fuel economy (which also leads to cleaner emissions).
Backwaters of the world? Would that be France and Italy, where they still haven't figured out that communism doesn't work?
--actually, the hybrid cars are being dumped on the market at extremely below cost of manufacture. The prius is runnihng around 40 to 50 grand I think to just build the things, but they are looking for long term brand loyalty and market share, just like when they flooded the US market with 4 cylinder vehicles in the 70's. Those were sold at a loss as well for a long time. So you are actually getting a pretty good deal at 20 grand and change for a hybrid.
To bad they can't make a car that is powered by all the tree huggers' sense of self satisfaction.
.5 seconds and drive forever.
The sucker would do 0-60 in
[FromTheMorning]
Since you're already used to electric vehicles, have you considered the Rav4 EV? The website is not very informative, and apparently the car is only available in California.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PriusMods/
If you want an affordable car wich is very efficient you should consider an VW Lupo 3L TDI
"3l" is for 3 Litres on 100 kilometers.
It runs on normal Diesel fuel and has as almost any modern Diesel from Europe much less emmisions than a normal car.
It uses a Catalytic Converter and an additional exhaust filter. That means NO measurable emmisions besides Carbondioxyde and Water.
At least here in Europe Diesel is much cheaper than normal fuel and you have to pay no taxes on the Car.
You also have enough room to transport four adults, and a state of the art Protection System is also included.
This DOE site has a good amount of information about fuel-efficient cars. Among other things there is a list of this model year's hybrid cars.
But beyond that, I just wanted to encourage folks to consider long-term solutions that don't necessarily involve buying the right car. If you have to buy a car now, go for it, but maybe as a part of that process you could take some time to write a letter to your government representative encouraging investment in mass transit, bicycle infrastructure (bike lanes, etc), and more broad support for environmentally friendly transportation methods (on land, air, and sea).
The energy and resources devoted to producing cars, even eco-friendly ones, and the infrastructure that supports them is still very significant in an unsustainable sort of way, and we won't be any better off in 20 years if we're all just solo drivers of SUVs that happen to be running on biodiesel.
Also, if you're going to join a motorist club, don't join AAA, use an org like Better World. Better World provides all the same features, but unlike AAA, they don't actively oppose funding for mass transit, clean air regulations, bike paths, etc.
So, then the question is whether you would rather have 1 gallon worht of diesel emissions or 1.6 gallaons worth of unleaded emission?
:/
If you care about the local environment, go with the Gas: it produces less NOx and soot, which contribute to local smog.
If you care about the global environment, go with the Diesel: it produces less CO2 and other greenhouse gases.
Oh well..
Where I live in Canada, Propane is widely used as an alternative fuel, mostly by fleet vehicles. It's readily available and cheap. I don't know the specifics on how it compares environmentally to gasoline or diesel, but I believe it's very favourable, similar to natural gas (emissions wise). You can expect to get about 2/3's the range you would with gasoline.
Just a note ahead of time. Some of the cars listed below are only available in certain parts of California and are only available in relatively low numbers.
Pure Electric:
2002 The Nissan Altra EV (pilot?)
2002 Ford Thi!nk City
2002 Toyota Rav4-EV
2002 Lido Motors Lido
2002 Ford Ranger EV (fleet only?)
2002 Nissan HyperMini (pilot only?)
Selectria Force (out of production?)
Hybrids:
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid
2002 Honda Insight
2002 Toyota Prius
Web Sites of Interest:
EV World
US DoE Alternative Fuel Car Buying Guide (many listed)
US DoE Alternative Fuel Vehicle Listing (many listed)
California ZEV Buyers Guide
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
Here is a link to an alternative fuel car that uses biodiesel fuel made from the hemp plant.
http://www.hempcar.org
You should get Satan as your motor.
Co-founder of GerbilMechs
You gotta love people that dont have a clue,
4 3, 212456,00.html
....
PURE electrics are responsible for the generation of more polution than comprable hybrid vehicles.
No ? Just look around at EV sites and it wont take you long to realized that generating electricity at a plant ??? miles away, transmission loss and all the fun add up to MORE FRIGGING polution in the generation of that electricity than a hybrid creates.
Not to metnion the long term battery and chemical disposal issues. Thats a whopper too.
Wait for one of the Borax Powered Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles from Chrysler. Cost is supposed to be low, and emission zero.
Barring that look at some of the hybrid vehicles.
Sometimes I have to question peoples motives of EV , if its convinience thats OK, my neighbor has been using the same elctric lawn mower for 20 years, its easy, quiet cheap, the only thing he spends money on is a new extension cord every 3 years or so after he's chopped his umpteen times. If you are looking at an EV for enviromental reasons, PLEASE get a clue. PURE EV pollute more than hybrids, and some more than LEV.
My favorite action by an enviromental group was the guys in Calif, that burned an allotment down under construction. POINTS , 1 for burning, 2 like inscurance isnt going to pay and end up cutting more trees to rebuild ? 3, the fumes from all the insulation cooking ? 4 we deforest more area to rebuild an allotment "TREE HUGGERS" were protesting the cutting of trees ?
I would seriously wait for the Chryslers to be sold they seem AWFULL SLICK !
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,125
If you havent seen or heard about it
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
I tried the Toyota Prius; and it is +/- nice, but too expensive for what it brings. They could have done a little bit of a better job by getting a nicer radio.
I would go with the "Honda Civic GX." It is pretty much a normal Honda Civic with the added bonus without loosing much.
I don't believe there should be any reason why environmental friendly cars shouldn't be comfortable enough as regular cars. Not that they will have the same equipment, but that they could have equivalent lighter stuff, instead.
Advantages of using Biodiesel:
- it does not contain sulphur, thus the exhaust is less aggressive to the engine and the engine last longer.
- it is CO2 neutral because the rapeseed converts exactly as much CO2 as is released later when burning the fuel. An electric car however needs electricity, which is made burning coal or natural gas or nuclear fuel.
- it is cheaper than the mineral oil diesel, at least in Germany. We have lots of biodiesel gas stations too.
Some papers on advantages and technology:http://www.biodiesel.de/vortragen.htm
http://www.biodiesel.de/kraften.htm
And yes, I'm very happy using Biodiesel in my car and can recommend it to everybody else.
where I live and work, the San Francisco Bay Area.
Imagine that.
Here are photos
I took at an Alternative Fueled Vehicle show in Cocoa, Florida earlier this year. There are shots of a 2002 Prius, 2002 Insight, 2003 Civic Hybrid, a CNG Ford Crown Vic, GEMCar, Think!, a CNG Ford F150, Electric RAV4, and several misc vehicles.
You might also be interested in the EVWorld web site which has plenty of news and a free EV related newsletter.
Enjoy!
Save the forests and expiring natural resources. http://www.hempcar.org
Methinks that is the real winner here, if only for those who commute ~10miles or so one-way. And I suspect that is most.
Freakin Tree Huggers, get a real car.
It's not the MPG they are concerned about so much as the emissions. The TDI has one a 'horrible' record with emissions, just as generally most diesels do.
Ethanol is for drinking!!
I would suggest at this time that you have a choice of three that have reasonable price, performance, reliability and availability statistics. 1.) Prius. 2.) Insight 3.) Honda Civic Hybred I am going to give a quick overview of each vehicle. The Prius from Toyota is a more traditional hybred design which is what you would expect from Toyota. They are a bit conservative. That being said the system they devised is excellent. The Prius essentially incorporates a seperate induction engine which can power the vehicle on it own without assist for a short period at low speed. It also regenerates the batteries when braking. The advantage here is that an internal combustion piston engine cannot be efficient at all RPM's and actually only produces good torque and clean emissions during specific RPM bands. If the induction motor handles the low RPM range and can assist on the high RPM range for passing the gas engine can be tuned to the mid-range RPM band. That's what Toyota did. In fact the engine itself is one of the few examples of the Atkinson Cycle engine that actually made production. The Atkinson is very efficient but suffers from the fact that it produces dreadful low RPM torque. I think you see that its a good match with the induction motor. Thus a very light Atkinson block can power a production vehicle if an induction motor handles the low end load and assists on the high end. Nice setup. What you get is a vehicle that reliably seats 4 ( perhaps 5 if you have tiny friends ) and gets at least 50 miles to the gallon in comfort. IN addition it is very clean. NOX, HydroCarbonds, CO and CO2 are reduced greatly. The second choice is the insight which is a very different hybred vehicle actually than Toyota's. It's an integrated Motor Assist setup. The battery, unbelievably thin, is integrated with the block. That means one engine with two power systems which is a mind blower. The induction motor will assist when power is required at low end and high end but it *can't* take the entier load ever. It only assists. The the gas engine has to run for you to move. At first this doesn't sound wonderful but it actually is very clever. By assisting the engine the engine doesn't need to be as big and powerful. Thus you can get away with a small 3 cylinder engine. I mean small! In addition the induction motor will regenerate the batteries and will smooth out the vibrations with short bursts of power such that the 3 cyclinder engine wont beat itself up. They aren't balanced you know. The engine itself is a wonder. It's a super light variable valve timing lean burning engine. This is the decendant of the 92 horse power 4 cyclinder lean burner that Honda used to sell in its Honda Civic Hatchbacks some time ago. With an aluminum body and lots of batteries and a very low drag coefficient this vehicle pays every price for fuel economy which it achieves. The last vehicle is Honda's Hybred Civic. That means a production vehicle with a Hybred drive train. The first ever in automotive history and I think the most important vehicle of the three for that reason. This means these vehicles are *real* in the automotive sense. Same system as the insight only 4 cylinders and an improved induction motor and control system. This system actually idles cyclinders when you are slowing down to further conserve fuel. 51 miles per gallon and basically 20K. Beyond that same as any other Civic which is the idea. Below are much very short summarized opinions on each vehicle with an emphases on what would be best for the consumer. Insight: If you want MPG uber every other consideration then this is your vehicle. I have seen many of these vehicles driven by people with just that attitude which is fine and dandy. I think this vehicle is especially well suited to the Sunshine states. However, tho I have seen many of these vehicles in New England I can recommend this vehicle in areas where it snows. The small baby-coach wheels and low hung carrage make this a "pusher" as we call it in New England. Meaning you get out and push the vehicle through the snow banks. Serously, New England can be brutal on vehicles and frankly this car wont measure up dispite what many people may claim. But for the Sunshine states *or* a Summer vehicle this will work great. Awesome in the city in particular. Prius: I think this is the best combination of good mileage, confort and price. You don't get as good MPG as the Insight but you don't suffer the road bumps either. YOu can feel the Insight running over a termite but the Prius is civilized. My only word of caution is that this vehicle also has baby coach wheels and is a bit low hung. I expect it is better in the snow than an Insight but you may have trouble. Consider it a bigger version of a sub-compact in that sense. This is a good purchase for anybody that wants really good mileage in the City where it really shines but does not want to suffer and needs a trunk and has more than one friend. Civic Production Hybred: I actually like this vehicle the best. Ya, it doesn't have the MPG like the above two especially in the city. ( Keep in mind that the MPG on the sticker will vary much from actual driving experience with Hybreds. ) But, it does get great mileage is not as costly for its size and it is larger than the other two. The Civic will perform well in snow, sleet and ice just like past Civics. In other words, an ordinary car with an extraordinary drive train. This is the best vehicle if you just want a damn car that does damn car things but miraculously gets better mileage. If that's you then you want this car. I think that's the best reasoning I can arrive at for purchasing one over another. It really is a personal decision. You actually have a good variety of choices here. Here are some misc bits of info that I will toss in as is. o All these systems idle stop the engine. The induction motor will start them. No starter motor. The induction motor does various things on these vehicles. Move the car, regenerate power, start the engine... o The batteries are NiMetalHydride. That means a loss of power perhaps 30 percent in really cold climates. Not a *big* deal but understand this. o The batteries are 8-10 year batteries. By the time they die they should be cheaper. Assuming you don't move to Lithium Ion XXX. o The original Insight actually gets better mileage than the current ones. The lean burners were gaining MPG but emitting more NOX. They changes that to make the system SULEV rather than simply ULEV to keep up with Toyota. The price paid is less MPG and thus more CO2. In Europe with Diesels they will tolerate more NOX, HydroCarb and Particulate matter to get less CO2. In the US its no NOX, Particulate Matter and HydroCarbon but CO2 is ok. o You engine cycles that you will be seeing in the future are: Atkinson (Toyota) Miller (Mazda) and advances on the Otto (everybody else in the world). You also will see a return of the Wankel Rotary engine apparently. o 42 Volt systems are in vogue in Detroit since they are cheaper, get you 25 percent better mileage and allow them to provide more power for appliances. The system has super lead acid batteries and an induction motor that will start the engine from idle stop and regenerate. It will not propel the vehicle. Contractor special pickups will arrive that can use the engine as a generator which is actually more efficient and cleaner than the ones at Home Depot.
The price was also $35-45k, depending on model year and features.
$35-45k will buy you a nice luxury car with dead-cow seats and all the features you could ever want... or, it'll buy you the peace of mind that you're not harming the rainforest (a forest which, incidentally, couldn't give a rat's ass about your EV-1.)
Obviously, most people saw the price tag, had a seizure, and bought an Accord instead.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
people only seem to be mentioning the honda insight but honda has released a civic hybrid this year. it eliminates the seating issue and looks more like a plain family car. warning, crappy flash site. http://civichybrid.honda.com/
I tried to go electric but got so fed up with the offerings that I ended up buying a Trail Blazer! Not quite sure how that happened!
:)
Funny thing is, now we are looking at a full size Expedition!
Something has killed the Environmentalist in me!
When I was in university (poor) I was a staunch environmentalist. Now that I am employed and have a good income, I find myself destroying the earth in ways not though possible
Oh Well.
If you can't beat em! etc....
I realize this might sound silly, but what's the point of an electric car? While the car itself doesn't produce pollution, it has to get its electricity from somewhere, and in the vast majority of cases it will be from a power source that pollutes anyway. Could someone explain this to me?
slashdot!=valid HTML
i have been thinking trying this technology out with my bus. now quite sure if it's on the level, anyone got any info?
Back in the 80's, car companies were advertising cars that got 60 mpg (toyota?). Now here we are in 2002 and we need weirdo electric-gas hybrids just to get 45 mpg? Who's paying off who here?
This is THE electric car to get. Maybe expensive, but you can smoke just about any production gas vehicle on the market. Vette's, Porche's and Ferrari's included. Get's well over 50 miles range and top speed is only limited by the speed controller. If I had the cash I would own one of these. I have seen 2 of these driving around my area so I know you can actually get one.
o me .htm
0 to 60 mph 4.07 sec
1/4 mile 13.24 sec at 90 mph
Check out the website for the mind-boggling drag race videos!
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_h
Small, all-electric vehicle. Two seater plus room for luggage, but definitely not a full-sized car.
From their page:
You can even pedal if you're up to it.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
I'm sorry, but until the looks and style of these cars change into something that doesn't INSULT MY MANHOOD, I'll drive my gas guzzling car (Hey, 25mpg ain't bad).
Just for the record, I did a little quick research to find out how much farm use this would require. I found an estimate suggesting that 1 acre of rapeseed was sufficient to yield 100 gallons of biodiesel. So...
Total arable land in the US: 464 million acres
Max theoretical fuel output: 46.4 billion gallons
Annual gas usage in the US: 400 million gallons
Now, depending on the fuel economy inherent to bio-diesel as opposed to unleaded, this would imply that with less than 1% of the arable land in the US dedicated to making bio-diesel, there would be a surplus of fuel available.
So, I don't think this is a problem unless my numbers about rapeseed to biodiesel conversion are incorrect.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
If your looking for an electric Vehicle, maybe you should consider the Th!nk City. It doesn't quite reach 65 MPH, but it does qualify for HOV lane stickers and you can help bring the car to market by participating in their special testing lease.
For 2003 there will be a Civic 4-door hybrid, with basically the next iteration of the Insight's technology. From the one report I saw about it, it's almost impossible to tell the difference between it and "conventional" Civic.
1) [Ethanol is] a false economy.
Very true. Here in Ohio our gasoline is all part ethanol, because it's hard for lawmakers to resist the pressure for farm subsidies.
2) [Ethanol] mostly uses corn as its source... What about hemp or some other crop that might require less insecticide, fertilizer, etc.
Producing ethanol requires sugars to ferment; corn is a very good cheap source of sugar. That's why so many foods are sweetened with corn syrup (that, and U.S. trade protectionism keeps cane sugar prices jacked up, again because of the power of agricultural lobbies).
Hemp, despite its several uses, is useless as a sugar source. I can't think of any U.S. crop that would serve as well as corn. Sorghum, maybe.
Anyhow, ethanol doesn't make sense as a fuel source right now, but as easily retrieved petroleum becomes scarcer and oil prices go up I do expect ethanol to become important in the U.S., because we have no shortage of cropland and because it requires minimal changes to current internal combustion technology.
The maufacturing process is very similar to the soap-making process; if you've ever made soap in your kitchen, you can make biodiesel in your kitchen.
I am Jack's eco-friendly fuel.
Get a Volkswagen TDI model (http://www.tdiclub.com/). In the US they have TDI jetta's, beetles and golfs (nearly every model in europe has a TDI, passat, lupo etc). In the US they are only rated for about 90hp(and 155hp of torque stock, they can get up to 115hp fairly easily), but get 49MPG (over 700miles a tank) for highway mileage. The TDI lupo (only in europe) is rated for 90MPG and costs far less than a honda!
They do offer a 150hp TDI engine in europe which still gets really good gas mileage, but won't run on current US grade diesel (which is real poor). There is even a TDI GTI! VW/Audi sells six different diesels in Europe (1.2l, 1.9l - 90hp, 1.9l - 110hp, 1.9l -115hp, 2.5l - 150hp, V8 3.3l - 225hp[available soon]) compared to only the 1.9l - 90hp available in North America. When mentioning these horse power figures though, we must also think where this power is available. On the 1.9l 90hp it peak torque is available at just 1900RPMs with 155 ft/lbs torque up to the V8 3.3l which generates 355 ft/lbs torque between 1800 and 3000RPMs. I guess we can only dream of these really high output models.
Diesel is good, unfortuneatly it got a bad name in the US due to the amount of black smoke earlier cars and big trucks would put out (about 2% of US cars are diesel compared to over 25% in Europe. A properly tuned diesel shouldnt spew black smole and has gobs of torque which is great for driving around town(you won't win a drag race).
VW is really the only auto manufacturer who still offers diesel cars, and their prices start around 15k. Plus you get a car which is much nicer than a civic both on the in and outside.
I expect more manufacturer's to bring diesels over to the US once the fuel standards increase.
On a side note, is there any technical problem which has stop diesel electric hybrids in cars (they have diesel electric trains). Seems to me you would get a more fuel efficent car than a gas electric.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
You might like to have a look at this Parade here
Specs include:
Range : 60miles(EV60)/150miles(EV150)
Acceleration : 8 seconds for 0-60 km/h
Top Speed : 110km/h
Made in Korea.
Let me first start by suggesting that you look at either the Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid. As one who happens to have a Honda Insight in the driveway I can say that it is quite useful as a commuter vehicle.
Many people are judging the alternative fuel vehicles by their MPG - and in that light they are go "why not get a Jetta TDI" - well the point in looking at the hybrids or natural gas vehicles is to avoid the issue of emissions which diesels are are not. That is a major tradeoff between the TDI and say Insight.
On the same note; I very much put the "environmentalism" of the hybrid cars in doubt considering the additional uses of plastics, and batteries. I would say this might even be a near zero-sum situation.
I put the question of total environmental costs to many students often asking them to question the costs in making those energy-effecient lights instead of your standard bulbs. And while I may not have an answer to my own question it atleast opens their minds to a greater holistic realm of thought.
Fuck hydrid cars.
The major benefit of biodiesel is that you don't need any major change in hardware. All diesel powered vehicles can use Biodiesel with no modifications.
I am a student at the University of Washington, and we recycle the used grease from restaurants by the university to fuel many of the campus vehicles.
um the VW lupo gets 90MPG, and is in production NOW. Most of the really nice diesels are in europe :(
There is a vw diesel concept which got 240mpg.
goto www.vwvortex.com for info
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
One of my partners at work has an electic RAV4. It's totally electric, and has a range of about 100 miles, and a top speed of 80 MPH. It's every bit a 'real car', it's exactly a RAV4 with the engine ripped out and an electric motor squeezed in, and with somewhat lower rolling-resistance (but still full sized) tires.
I love this car. It's big enough for four full-sized people, it's peppy, and it's wonderfully silent.
Of course it's only available in California; I didn't know if that's where you were from (GM's EVs were mostly in CA.) California also lets you drive this car in carpool lanes with one person, and lets you park at any parking meter for free, as incentives.
You can rent these at some Thrifty locations, if you want to try before you buy.
I can't say enough good things about this car. It's just wonderful. The only downside is the cost, which is an eye-watering $41,000. What makes that somewhat more tolerable is that you get a whopping $9,000 rebate back from the IRS, and something like $3,000 back from the state Franchise Tax Board. The cost of electricity ends up being about 1 cent per mile, far less than gasoline would be.
And, since there is no gas tank under the back seats, they put the spare tire there, instead of hanging it off the back.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
Well so is the oil industry if you look at the overall picture. How many billions have gone into supporting a foreign policy predicated on protecting oil supplies?
I'm not convinced that corn is the best crop
But you don't really know one way or the other now do you?
It's kind of fuel-intensive to make
But again, you don't really know.
all-electric cars are a net lose in terms of energy and environment.
the hybrid 4-door cars are good for 45-50 mpg.
a diesel jetta is rated at 41 mpg, *but* diesel fuel , being roughly kerosene, requires much less effort and energy to refine than gasoline.
got to ford as they have a ranger (if you really want a ford .. yuck) as they have an electric ranger..
And then go to evworld.com and read about what else is available and coming.. there are several companies that seem to be moving electic and hybrid vehicles into their lines ...
Only 'flamers' flame!
Alternative fuel = Rocket fuel
This is a backwards place but I don't feel like driving in reverse.
This is really important stuff. You may very well be right, and I'm extremely interested in what you're saying, but with specific information like this (where everyone's memories are contradicting each other) it's all meaningless unless you site your sources!
-Dave
We're on the road to Tycho.
It's sort of a cross between a bicycle and an electric car. Here's an article on someone in Vermont who bought one in Seattle: http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm? storyid=104
Corbin Motors offers several alternatives to the standard vehicle. There aim is single occupancy, for people that primarily travel alone on their commute (most people do), very efficient and cool looking- and you can get them now!
cool furniture too!
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
Voltswagon diesel beetle, 70miles per gallon, plus see the following link.. htm
http://www.maricopa.gov/sbeap/biofuel2-001
for a way to go really alternative.
No html for me i'm saving bits, go ahead overlook this, just another anonymous poster.
In 1989 I had a '79 Subaru FE that got 48 mpg on the highway at 70 MPH. At 45 MPH it got 62 mpg. This was out of a 1500 pound car made in 1979 with 125,000 miles on it. I was delivering pizza at the time and gas was money so I tracked it very closely.
Start here:t tp://www.fleets.doe.gov/
/ ra v_home.htm
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/afvehicles.html
h
It depends on your price range but if you got bucks to spend you can get/lease a Toyota Rav4 EV, range 100Mill per charge.
http://rav4ev.toyota.com/consumer/rav4ev_0_home
I have been researching Hybrids for the last year. U am also currently driving a Honda Accord. Here is what I have come up with. The Honda Insight is an engineering wonder. Everything is designed to be light. The word on the street is that this car will be discontinued at the end of this year [www.businessreport.com]. And if you have kids forget it, as it is only a two seater and doesn't have an airbag cutoff switch. The Toyota Prius is an interesting car. Advantages are that it is SULEV (at least in California), and that it can run off the electric battery without the engine running (at speeds lower than 30 mph). Disadvantages I saw on my test drive was that the first one I tried wouldn't start cause the battery had drained (don't know if it was a stupid dealer or design flaw). Also, I didn't like the center mounted speedometer or the weird shift (mounted on the dashboard). Finally, the Prius uses small low rolling resistiance tires, which people are complaining about. According to one post I saw, someone said they had to change tires at 14,000 miles. And since the tires are both small and low rolling resistiance, they are hard to find. Also, during my test drive, it seemed that the gas engine was revving really high at speeds of 40 to 50 mph. Another small nit is that the breaking is non-linear (it seems rather grippy when you press hard). Finally, I have been considering the Hybrid Civic. I have test driven this car twice, and I really like it. It seems to drive really well. Although it has low total horsepower, it acheived that horsepower at lower rpm, meaning that the accelleration felt pretty normal. The tires are bigger than the Prius, and it feels very much like a normal car. It is also quiet because the bottom of the car is insulated for better aerodynamics. One disadvantage is that, at $21,000 sticker price, this car is about $3000 over the price of a comparably equiped Civic. After driving all three of these, I am going with the Hybrid Civic. The IRS recently has announced a $2000 deduction for hybrid cars [detnews.com] Also, if you are interested in enviornmental issues, check out [www.greenercars.com]. It has green ratings for all the cars mentioned.
nissan makes a polution free alternative. Its the nissan sentra CA. They only made them one or two years, but they put out 0 polution. And are ok in the carpool lane. They use regular gas too. They have a lifetime smog warrenty too. A really good deal.
Theonlyuse of monkeys is to testthings onthem.Some peoplemay say"Hey That'scruel!"and myresponse is"I don't like monkeys
If you're trying to just save gas money, then it's easy math.
If you're trying to protect the environment, you must consider more complicated factors. I rarely see the following mentioned (esp. C); what other considerations are there?
A) What pollution is output and what does each molecule do? How does 1 Kg CO2 compare to 1Kg methane? Locally? Globally? (see the summaries at http://www.ipcc.ch/ for a good answer)
B) What pollution is output in the whole process or finding, extracting, refining, storing, transporting, burning and disposing of the fuel? What about the engine? For example, electric may burn clean in your car, but it shifts significant pollution to the power plant and the battery disposal yard.
C) Is the pollution you add to the environment stuff that would end up there anyway (e.g. fuel made from trees, corn, etc.) or stuff that would otherwise stay buried forever (petroleum, natural gas, etc.)?
If you care about human rights, poverty, etc. then you have even more to worry about: To whom am I giving money when I buy this fuel?
"77,000 BTU of energy requires inputs totalling about 131,000 BTU (if memory serves)."
I store this factoid in a more compact form, that the fuel consumed in the production of ethanol contains 1.7 times the enery as the ethanol. Which fits with the figures you give.
By the way, those who can not obtain ethanol fuel at the pump can simulate the experience of driving on a gallon of ethanol using regular fossil fuel:
1- Purchase 1.7 gallons of gasoline.
2- Poor 1 gallon into your tank.
3- Poor the remaining 0.7 gallons into nearby ditch. Ignite.
Those after a more realistic experience can also send ADM a check, cut down trees and dump topsoil into a river. If anyone questions you, denounce them as a corporate whore of the fossil fuel industry then move to Nebraska and vote for Tom Daschle.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Of course the electric bicycle that should be the most appealing to the slashdot crowd should be the Sparc.
Well, the best milage I get is my truck which gets 17mpg when I'm "nice" to it. Course it is a diesel which helps. On the rest of my vehicles, the milages goes down, all the way to 3mpg in my street rod. I hope I can do my part to consume the fuel that the "do gooders" are saving. Also, I have all the size and power I could ever want, no cramping into a matchbox sized unconfortable POS for me.
Long live the American freedom of choice!
Seriously I would love to drive a fuel efficent, or completely alternate fuel vehicle, however the current selection the cars are just to damned small. I am a big guy(not fat just widely built, I don't need extra airplane seats or anything), and the size of this class of vehicle is just to small for me to be comfortable...
I drive a Regal because I am comfortable in one....
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I wish the people of Nebraska would vote for Tom Daschle.
Many of us in South Dakota would love to get rid of him. He's South Dakota's senator, not Nebraska's.
Although I, along with many other South Dakotans, just wish he would go away. We'll see if he can continue to dupe people here to continue to vote for him in two years.
Is that not early post office? Yes! That is mine early post office!
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Early post office, Goatse ghost,
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Minus one, trolling fun, Early post office, Goatse ghost,
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Slashdot sucks!
AC Propulsion TZero
http://www.rapidcars.com/tzero.html
which is entirely battery powered and will out-accelerate the neighbor's Ferrari 355,
and the strange but wonderful
RinSpeed Advantage R
http://www.rapidcars.com/advantager.html
which features a moving cockpit and runs on household garbage, Back to The Future style.
Ivan
There is no graceful way to eat an egg salad sandwich.
...but it's best to keep it simple. Try a Toyota Echo. 30-40 mpg and it runs on gas so there's no huge batteries to go sour one day and have to be chucked and pollute the environment.
**>>BELCH
I've been doing the cycling thing ever since college. My experience is that a ten mile commute is very doable. The best part is that you wind up in killer shape from that. Ideally you'd live on the temperat west coast or the southwest. I dunno too much about the weather patterns of the Southeast, but I'll assume there's a couple of months out of the year where it's too hot to ride. When I lived on the west coast, my bike journeys were almost always in excess of eight miles due to various circumstances. Eight miles is pretty pleasant and fun unless you have to ride through mountains. Fifteen miles is doable, but not if you're on a tight time table and certainly not every day. Living out in the midwest the main problem I have is weight gain during the the two to three months where it's just too cold an snowy to ride. I find that if I'm dressed right, I can ride somewhat comfortably down to 15 degres F. After that I say F*** it. Getting back in spring takes a month before I'm totally with it. The other positive thing about cycling is that public transpotation is increasingly accomadating bikes. In Ann Arbor where I live the buses now have racks. In Philly where I'm going to be living, the trains let you bring bikes aboard during non-peak hours. This really extends your range. The other cool thing that I see happening in urban areas is that cities and conservation groups are making bike trails along rivers and other green ways. Depending on how they're laid out both can really cut down your time even if they don't cut down your mileage. No stoplights and no traffic after all. One not so postive development is that moutnain bike manufacturers are no longer putting brazings on frames for racks sturdy enough to mount panniers. The big thing right now is disc brakes whose fittings supplant those for racks. I replaced my panniers when they wore out with Dana Design Bomb Pack because it's a big day backpack that does not push your head downwards when you sit on the bike wearing a helmet. 'Course I'm still riding the same old bike, but I dream of getting a new one.
It's not the vegetation that was in the area before the dam was built, but what gets washed in to the resevoir later on. If managing the ecosystem is as easy as you proclaim, then why isn't it being done successfully already?
As reported by the BBC in May 2000.
One reason - did you know that quite a bit of pollution occurs at gas stations, as vapor from the nozzle and your tank escape into the atmosphere? Even though generating electricity to fuel cars pollutes as well, it can be far less since it all happens at one location (where it can be more easily handled) than at a variety of poorly maintained gas stations.
...two cars? That is the real question.
In a lot of families, at least one car is used solely for commuting to work. 1/2 hour each way, and the rest of the time it sits, unused in the parking lot or driveway.
Finding an alternate way to work for one member frees up the car for the other person on kid hauling duty, or if they have a long commute to work. I've managed to do that several times, for long periods of time. Bike, bus, carpool, whatever. A 2 car family can turn into a one car family.
1 minivan and a bike (or bus) gets better gas mileage than two Insights. And is far easier on YOUR wallet.
My wife and I got one for her about a month ago. The more I drive it, the more I like it.
It handles very well, the steering is very responsive. It has a very tight turning radius - I can make a complete U-turn in a standard residentail street. And of course, the gas mileage is really great.
I only have 2 minor nits to pick with it.
The shift lever is in a somewhat non-standard position on the dash, and obscures some of the radio controls from the view of the driver.
And the gas gauge is wildly inaccurate - when it reads 3/4 full, you really have about 1/4 tank, and when the low gas warning chime goes off, you have about 5 miles left instead of the 30 or 40 you get in most cars.
But those are really very minor complaints, and if I had to replace my car today (my wife drives the Prius), I'd get another one.
You're not kidding. Even though it is considerably popular here in Chicago (we have a very pro-bicycle mayor and many active riders), I still consider urban bicycling here to be an extreme sport.
Also, consider lending your support to the Atlanta Bicycle Campaign. From their homepage:
I'm a big fan of the Prius. However, if you're in the city, why own? I drive the Prius, in addition to many other cars, through my local car co-op:
http://www.zipcar.com
This will work for people that need a car for short errands in Boston, New York, DC, and recently Denver. You reserve a car in advance by phone or by the web. The zipcar density in Boston/Cambridge is so high that I have never been unable to find a car nearby when I needed it.
It also looks like there are a few car co-ops in the orginal poster's area:
http://www.carsharing.net/where.html
While this is sounding like a bit of a love story, I should close by saying that I used to own a car in the city and the insurance payments alone were murder, (not counting the gas a maintainace costs). And every major car repair was the cost of a new bicycle, so now I just bike and zipcar everywhere.
"The explanatory command for unix is man." Chauvinism or bitter irony? Discuss.....
Unmodified car drove across america running on hemp. I would recommend all you conservative twats think about the legality of hemp, as it can be used to mold-injected parts, fuel, food, etc, without "getting you high."
I don't smoke pot, but I fight every inch I can for the legalization of hemp. One of the big reasons its outlawed is that it would devastate some major industries (such as oil/coal). Everyone else legalized hemp to grow for industrial purposes, why not us?
What to do, then? Go and buy an old car. Make sure it's in mechanically good condition when you get it, and service it regularly. You can do this yourself, at home, easily. You can buy an inexpensive workshop manual that will tell you about simple servicing right the way up to complex overhauls. If you choose a good car in the first place, it will last a long time, and if it's serviced and tuned correctly, the emissions will be far lower than most new catalyst-equipped cars.
The problem is that on short journeys, at low speed, the catalyst never gets hot enough to work properly. This results in that nasty "rotten egg" smell you get. Unfortunately, these low speed short journeys tend to be what people do most in town, which is just when you need the emissions to be cleanest.
So, in short, choose an old-ish (10-15 years) car that's in reasonably good condition. Don't pay more than about #500 for one, though. Get a workshop manual. Get decent tools. Learn to use them - you're a geek, aren't you? It's fun, rewarding, and good for the environment. You don't need to worry about depreciation, and even if you just scrap the car when it eventually packs in, you've only lost a few hundred quid, not the thousands you'd lose in depreciation on a new car.
The second best mpg car in the world is the A2 TDI. I need 2.8 litres per kilometer (sorry, I'm not a Yankee :)
The best car there is the Wolskvagen Lupo 3L that needs about 2.4 litres per kilometer.
Better than the Insight or Prius! Besides, you can use biodiesel!
But why does it have to go faster than 65?
Think! is a beautifully designed and produced Scandinavian car. The company was purchased by Ford Europe last year. See: http://www.thinkmobility.com
. hiof.no/think/2002/p /think_ev/
Other links:
http://snapp.hiof.no/think/
http://snapp
http://groups.yahoo.com/grou
http://www.geocities.com/think_ev/
> Long live the American freedom of choice! Yep, go ahead, it's your right, and you can accept the consequences of doing so. But, don't look for me at the gas station, when gas his $3 a gallon. My electric car doesn't need gas, goes where I want, when I want, and meets all my needs for 50 cents a day of electricity. That's my choice.
Or at least delivering it. I saw someone pick one up at a Honda dealer two weeks ago when I dropped a friend off for some service. It clearly says hybrid on the right rear.
It's a joke, gets about the same mileage as the old Civic HX. It also takes something like 13 or 15 seconds or something to hit 60mph.
How long do those batteries last, and what happens to them when they die?
http://www.rav4evcurrents.com/newsletter.asp
i test drove one, it's a lot of fun. 100 mile range, and ~80mph, i think.
Not directly related to the cars themselves, but wouldn't it be better to eliminate the long distance driving all together. Save on Gas an energy all around.
First Mass Transit baby, more trains. Give me the ability to ride my bike to a train station and then take a train to the general location where I work, and then ride the bike the last mile so to speak...
Trains run on Electricity. Generate that from natural sources, wind, water, solar got a building going up require it to have a certian surface percentage covered in solar panels. Put wind turbines on tall structures like industrial Chimmenys, and radio towers. Stuff like that....
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
There are two big issues about diesel emissions, and I'd enjoy reading about how they're addressed (hint, hint - any auto engineers reading this?)
First, they just plain burn hotter, so other things being equal you get more oxides of nitrogen. Are there catalysts to take care of that? Will they work with US diesel, which is higher in sulfur than what Europeans buy?
Second, they're burning a fine mist of fuel as opposed to a gaseous mix. The soot from lower-tech diesels comes from burning the outside of droplets and charring the inside. The old-fashioned solution was to have a swirl chamber near the cylinder to evaporate more of the fuel. How do direct-injection diesels get the relatively low-soot performance that they do?
Canyonero. Wow, it *is* roomy!
Ever want to race NSXs and Vipers? Well, here's an electric car that can smoke them in the 1/8 mile. It has 200 HP for a car that is only 2400lbs, and it has a range of 100 miles when driven at 60 MPH. For the long halls they make a trailer with a gasoline generator. Sounds like the car for me.
o me .htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_h
Check it out.
The last time I heard about biodiesel, the people who were promoting it mentioned offhand that it's tough on the fuel system and might require some parts of a standard diesel engine to be reworked to avoid long term damage. Have you heard anything about that?
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I have to mention it, even though they don't actually sell them, just because they are out and away the sexiest electric car you can imagine (if you can imagine such a thing.)
I'm talking about the Zytek Electric Lotus Elise, of course.
Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, Never drive a car when you're dead
Geo Metro with a tune-up. Including the tune-up, it might cost you $250. :) Good mileage (45-55 mpg), but power is gonna suck. 55 horsepower.
Late-80's fuel-injected Honda Civic 5-speed with the A/C compressor belt removed... 35mpg city, 40-45 highway. Had one for many years. Absolutely loved it. It'll do 80mph very comfortably and top out about 100mph. Even when it was out of tune and needed work, I got 0.00% emissions across the board. Extremely clean-burning car. 95 horsepower.
Civic HX w/manual transmission... They've made the HX for like 8 years, so it's a VERY established car. Uses a variable 3- or 4- valve per cylinder combustion implementation (VTEC variant) in order to yield excellent combustion efficiency with near-zero unburnt gasoline. Since it still has the good ole' 4 valve per cylinder setup available for high-load situations, you can floor it and still get decent pickup and ~110mph top speed. 40mpg or more, unless you don't know how to drive. If you also unhook the belt to your A/C compressor, you will probably be able to hit 50mpg on highway. Their transmissions are so well-made that they're often fitted onto performance Civics, since they've got excellent gearing and are practically indestructable. This vehicle is still cheaper than the hybrids of all manufacturers by a few thousand bucks. about 110 horsepower, if I remember correctly.
A small-displacement motorcycle! Get a 250-400cc street bike that has some decent horsepower and is light-weight and you'll get 70mpg every day of the week. It'd also save you a TON of money, as you can easily pick up such bikes new for as low as $5000. Anywhere from 18 to 30 horsepower. 1/2 the hp of the metro with 1/6 of the weight... these are no slouches when it comes to acceleration. Top speed will range from 60mph to 80mph, depending on the bike's design.
.... um, i lost you after "0110100001101001".
The Toyota RAV4-EV is a pure electric SUV type car. It's currently available only in California however. Toyota has worked out a deal with the Caltrans (people who maintan the roads out here) and drivers of the RAV4-EV can use the carpool lanes, without having a full car, and do not have to pay bridge tolls.
/ ra v_home.htm
Here's the link to their site
http://rav4ev.toyota.com/consumer/rav4ev_0_home
-sj
Sidebar: what about the organized labor lobby for highway workers who pour asphalt every four years on every major road in the US? ... The cost is half as much, and has twice the durability. So there would be less asphalt produced, and half the labor needed.
Actually, I have always heard that the reason for this is that the car companies depend on potholes and frostheaves, etc. to wear away at the cars so that typically they fall apart before 150k miles. Meanwhile a certain number of additional lives are lost each year as a result of people swerving to avoid potholes, but that's just part of the cost of doing business right?
Work for Change & GET PAID!
The obvious tradeoff here is size for fuel-efficiency, but that's really something to consider carefully if you're specifically looking for an "eco-friendly" car. In other words, depending on your preferences, it might not make sense to buy a heavy but fuel-efficient vehicle when you could get better mileage in a relatively in-efficient compact car.
and look like a little eco-bitch driving it :)
The battery pack consists of 120 D-cell NiMH batteries, and the charge/discharge cycle never fully depletes or fully charges them, in order to preserve their lives. The user battery graph only shows a narrow middle section of this charge, so a reading of "full" is actually ~90% charged, and it won't charge any more than that.
What has been noted occasionally is an O2 sensor alert on the dash, and quite a few have been replaced, but it's not clear yet whether the units are going bad or being damaged by something further up the engine. No recall, yet.
Weight limit: The car has a limit of ~350 pounds for the passenger, driver and cargo. That's two people at 175. Actually, I've topped at closer to 400 occasionally and nothing happens. I think they just don't want people hauling bricks in it or something - people tend to abuse hatchbacks ;)
Yup, it dings easy. Honda dropped the ball by not at least putting on a little rubber strip on the doors in order to stop the dings in parking lots. No argument there. I guess it's the price for an all-aluminum car designed to be light.
http://www.aircar.ag
You listed the Prius and the Insight, but not the newest hybrid on the market: the Civic.
I haven't driven any of these cars, but from what I've read it's the only hybrid that's actually a normal car that happens to be a hybrid, as opposed to a hybrid that's a car.
You should mean Osborne. Tom Osborne is who we all like to vote for.
Only if you're a pansy.
IP is just rude.
Is there any torture so subl
Here in Europe we are cursed with the damn things. Their exhausts contain the most carcinogenic compounds known to man and only now are the morons we elect begining to acknowledge the fact.
Import a Lotus Elise; surprisingly fuel efficient and ideal for nipping past those evil diesels.
Alex.
Of course I would immediately wonder what happens to the veggies that don't get stuck behind a dam. Do they get washed somewhere else and rot anyway, emitting methane? And what about natuaral lakes, some of which will obviously also have this problem? Don't you think that singling out man-made lakes is silly?
If one is in the market for an electric car, look at the Toyota RAV4 EV. The dealer around the corner from me in Hollywood (Toyota Of Hollywood) sells them and I see them driving around LA. (There is no spare tire mounted on the door. It's under the car where the exhaust/gastank/rear diff usually sits.)
/ ra v_home.htm
:-)
http://rav4ev.toyota.com/consumer/rav4ev_0_home
Only available in California. And they are the old style design, but drive just like a regular RAV4. (Which is very carlike.) Plus, you can haul your Ikea furniture home without burning any gas.
I was next to one in my car the other day and just loved the soft whir they make as they drive away.
It has and is being done successfully. The majority of countries with problems are extremely poor and have built without consideration of social and environmental impact, just as these same countries destroy rain forest with as little consideration of the same issues. Read some of the texts you cite and you will see that many of the environmentalists call not for an end to dam construction, but for a moratorium until these countries resolve these issues.
In that respect I agree with the environmentalists. A good coal powered plant with adequate scrubbing facilities is better than a poorly run dam, probably in all respects.
LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
I thought it was the CO (carbon monoxide) emissions, not the CO2 (carbon dioxide) emissions that everyone should worry about.
The EPA has a list of vehicles by how "green" they are.
It looks like Ford has a 100% electric Ranger and Toyota has an electic RAV-4.
i hate silent cars though. they're too easy to walk in front of...
dmarien
or bicycles? I know the 50 miles is easily do-able, but that 65 mph might be a little tough at times...
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
May I suggest getting a bicycle, or a horse?
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
Another alternative, and perhaps one closer in functionality to your old Accord, is the 2002 Honda Civic Hybrid:
The Honda Civic Hybrid home page
The Edmunds Review
It has four seats, four doors, gets mileage somewhere between 40-70 MPG, can get out of its own way, and is only US$20,000.
It runs on gasoline, but uses a dual electric motor/gas engine setup. So refueling will be infrequent and convenient.
Until a breakthrough in battery tech happens, this is the almost-best we can do. And you can buy it today.
While not the car answer the story might be looking for, there is a diesel- electric hybrid *motorcycle* being developed by an American company-- Ecycle - http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm
"Employing state-of-the-art mechanical and electrical design technology, eCycle is developing a 180mpg motorcycle. The motorcycle features a 219cc direct injected diesel engine and a 8kW electric motor drive. The weight of the motorcycle is 230lbs, with a top speed of 80mph and acceleration of 0-60 mph in 6 seconds. The target retail price is $5,000."
Last I read you can order one now, for slightly more, before their main production starts this year.
I am waiting for my nuclear powered De Lorean, with time trival option. :-)
Wise men speak because they have something to say, Fools because they have to say something!!!!
Hempcar.org
And yes, I know that the seats move back. ;)
Back to the fuel economy debate...
Neat little European 2-seater made in a collaboration between Mercedes and Swatch. They are very nicely appointed and have a wide choice of engines including a turbodiesel. All get excellent fuel mileage. They are not available in the U.S. through a dealer network yet - I've heard possibly 2003. There's a guy in Florida who has figured out how to bring them into the country and even claims he's been able to get them registered in a small number of states. Problem is he's price-gouging to the max. Too bad
Why not try this
Another choice might be the Toyota Electric RAV 4, an electric SUV for commuters.
I would not consider a parallel drive hybrid: the mechanical complexity of having both the electric and the gasoline motor drive the car must be high, and you can get pure gasoline cars with equivalent mileage. Unfortunately, most (all?) current choice for gas/electric hybrids are parallel drive.
The poor countries in the world can hardly be expected to take more expensive options when the richest nation in the world and by far the biggest polluter per capita, the United States, refuses to take similar action itself.
</political rant>
the Insight is not a *diesel* hybrid - it uses gasoline.
--- Ask me about my Sig -- it's a 9mm.
LPG does not was away your oil. In fact, it is better for your oil than gasoline. I think LPG converted vehicles change oil at 10k miles rather than 3k miles -- and the oil comes out clear. Gasoline is corrosive.
t'nera semordnilap
Singling out man-made lakes is not silly, as they can make conditions worse. I'm sure natural lakes can be bad, which is why human action that changes their size could also be undesirable. As the research indicated, the output from a resevoir can exceed that the output from the original river. There are forseeable methods that the existing ecosystem might employ that deals with the veggies without causing the same issues, e.g. flood plains, or comsumption by organisms such as plankton in the oceans.
--I used to have a two seater, rear engine/drive fiat spyder. 1969 model if I am remembering correctly. I got 60 mpg with it. It only had an 850 cc motor, would go about 70 tops. was wicked fun to drive around, and a sheer dream to work on. I rebuilt the engine and transmission when I got it (bought it as a non running junker), everything was like a car should be, easy to reach, no weird ass tools that are dealer only tools, no pollution nothing on it, it just worked, and very well. No computers,no electronic nothing really for the motor, regular old points. had toggle switches on the dash to turn the electronics on, with the appropriate fuse right below them, easily accessible.
My idea for a hybrid vehicle is an all electric car with a turbine (diesel or gas) engine to run a bank of alternators.
Turbines run best at a constant speed/load, which Chrysler found out with the 50's turbine car projects. Having a computer controlled turbine power source with electric drive would solve this. A set of batteries (about what the Insite has) would be for high battery load conditions and accessories in the car.
maX_
and here's link concerning the powertrain:
here
fuel cells!
check out natural capitalism
turn off that tv, save some power, and read.
help out.
I also was intrigued by the VWs when I was car shopping this weekend. However, it seems that although they get twice the gas mileage, they put out 3 or 4 times the emissions. If you want good mileage, they're a good car. If you're trying to be environmentally friendly, they're not.
Not sure what the bushel of corn/ gallon of ethonal ratio is, but the fuel used per acre in the earlier post is definately off.
On my dad's farm, you can get around 100 and some odd bushel per acre. I think it might have been around 160/acre but its been a while. Since an acre is only something like 233 feet square, its not going to take driven feet to pass it. Some time operators like my dad use equipment that covers 15 feet per pass. Bigger operators use machinery that'll cover 2, 4 even 6 times that much (albiet with lower fuel efficiencies). And tractors get suprisingly good milage considering the torque that they generate.
Using modern farming practices such as no till or low till, you don't touch the field very often, so that comes out to 3-5 passes over the field in a year. Likewise, to try and keep costs low, any solvent farmer only puts on those chemicals needed in the portions needed, so that's declining. In fact, there're starting to get to the point where they can combine GPS and lots of soil samples with computerized applicators to vary the amount of chemicals over each acre to boost efficiencies as much as possible.
Anyway, thought someone may find that of interest.
I like lots of people. That doesn't mean I go carting them around the galaxy with me. --Dr. Who
I've seen a few of these around lately. Two of them I have seen broken down on the side of the road. For being a new car this seems like a high number for the few I see on the road.
My wife and I purchased a Toyota Prius and took delivery in March. We LOVE it! I highly recommend this car. At the rate that Toyota is subsidizing them, it is very affordable.
If you so choose, you can keep the energy monitor on and set goals for yourself on efficiency, etc. But if you just want a car that is better for the environment, you don't have to pay any attention. We are getting consistently about 47 mpg and over 500 miles per tank of gas.
Come play Moral Decay!
article about gas-electric hybrids
? co ntentid=4020586&src=404
http://carpoint.msn.com/advice/standardart.aspx
shouldn't you be reading the Bible or out burning a cross in some African-American family's yard now instead of posting to /. ? "Street rod", indeed. How's life in the trailer park, Elmo? Shoot yourself any raccoon for supper?
Well, there really isn't a decent answer to this question.
Electric cars just suck, and that is due to the crappy energy density of today's batteries, which is a problem that just doesn't go away no matter how hard you try to ignore it.
An example of ignoring the problem? Driving an EV-1!
If you want to drive a more environmentally friendly vehicle, then get a practical hybrid sedan like the Prius or the new Civic Hybrid. Or get a modern diesel. Or wait for something tiny like the Smart to be sold in the US, hopefully with diesel or a diesel hybrid engine. Or, if you are feeling cheap, get yourself a used Geo Metro...
Or better yet, try and convince your representatives to get behind a raise in the CAFE fuel efficiency standards or an end to the SUV/light truck exemptions.
'Cause unless something changes, Americans will just continue driving big heavy gas-guzzlers until either the Saudis decide to spank us again like '73, or we just get to the place in the global oil production curve that Hubbert predicted so long ago. i.e.: The end of the cheap easy oil and the unforgiving rise in price.
Oh, but if nothing changes, I suppose a few people will still get to toodle about in their aging EV-1s, feeling smugly self-righteous...
Why not? Pat Beirne did. Pat is the former Chief Engineer at Corel, and when he got tired of polluting, he bought himself a Mazda Miata and converted it. PEN has a brief article about it as well.
I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
Air powered vehicles... :)
http://www.bellwetherinteractive.com/mdi/
Metro ("Silicon Valley's Weekly Newspaper") recently did an article about environmentally friendly cars, including an evaluation of several models. It's not Consumer Reports, but it does have some interesting points, like the fact that the Civic Hybrid pollutes exactly as much as a regular old Civic EX.
The RAV4 EV meets your requirements. You should certainly check it out. See http://rav4ev.toyota.com/
I've had an insight for 2 1/2 years. No battery pack replacements. It performs flawlessly. The battery pack and associated tech. is also waranteed for 8 years/80,000 miles.
There is a recommended passenger/cargo weight limit of 350 pounds. However, I have FREQUENTLY exceeded this recommended limit with no adverse affects (besides slightly lower mileage while loaded down, which will happen in ANY car).
No dings. And I'm not careful with my car. Your "friend" must be just totally abusive to his.
131,000 British thermal units of energy are required to produce one gallon of ethanol, but a gallon will only give you about 77,000 Btu of fuel energy
One REALLY big question... does the 131,000 BTU figure include the energy absorbed from the sun?
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Looks like some people in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania have their heads screwed on straight. They're offering grant money to those who buy alternative-fuel vehicles. The story was actually posted today on theautochannel.com.
Did you say the Insight uses D-cells? HAH! The car runs on 120 flashlight batteries!
I'm sure it's quite economical to use such a commodity, but it still sounds like the engineering work of a bright eight year old.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
these are. If you want to stick with pure electric, you might consider two more options:
The Corbin Sparrow II is a small electric three-wheeled thing built in CA.
And the Th!nk City, built by a company purchased recently by Ford, is available for demonstration lease in California now -- evidently for only $200 per month. (You're already familiar with such leases, since you've got an EV1.) Pretty sure it won't meet your top speed requirement, though.
Or, you can buy a Honda Interceptor (VFR) motorcycle. 800cc, 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. 150mph top speed (reported). 50mpg (observed).
Have a gas while saving gas.
The Dems are crazy if they don't realize that where they lost the election wasn't so much in FL as it was in NH. The real problem is that they've sold out and until someone with some balls steps forward to put a word in for the people who hate this corporatization of democracy, they will keep on losing. I don't mind GW so much; at least when he sells his soul he is whoring in a long tradition. When Gore does the same thing it makes me sick that we are left with only the choice between two equally compromised sides.
LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
The Toyota Echo has the same body as the Prius, and sells for about $10,000 less, say $10-12k instead of $20k and up. The mileage difference is only about 10-15mpg.
I did the numbers and came out with the rather alarming conclusion that you will never recoup the cost of the Prius in fuel savings, because the car includes expensive batteries that need to be replaced every ten years or so. When the car has been driven for ten years, the batteries are going to cost more than the depreciated value of the car. (This is not surprising considering how heavily subsidized the car is, a point made in other posts).
Car magazine (UK)'s monthly car cost and capsule rating section claims that the Prius is going to get about the same mileage as a diesel, and rides and handles poorly compared to the diesel VW Golf, which costs about the same. Motor Trend magazine, in an issue I bought about a week ago that's probably still on newsstands somewhere, agrees and much prefers the Honda Civic Hybrid. So if you need a hybrid car, I'd recommend the Honda.
Finally, in terms of saving the planet, the whole thing may be a wash. From what I understand, disposing of lead acid batteries of the size needed for an hybrid or electric car is a significant environmental hazard.
In the end, I'd probably take the Golf diesel unless I lived in California, where I belie
D
Since you say that you're in California, did you even check out the Toyota Rav4 EV that's available for purchase/lease to ordinary people (not just the fleet purchasers)? Only available in California so far.
/ ra v_home.htm
http://rav4ev.toyota.com/consumer/rav4ev_0_home
Toyota claims that the top speed is 78mph, and a 125mile range.
(I'll admit that it's a lot pricier (~$30k after CA incentives) than the $20k hybrids (Toyota Prius, Honda Insight and Civic)!)
A good review of the Toyota Rav4 EV is at:
http://www.thecarplace.com/agravev.htm
-mrv
Ever since baby forced the sale of the racing CRX, in 2000, we've been in a Toyota Prius.
It's roomy enough for two adults and two kids in car seats, has enough luggage space for a week long trip, and repels various snack fluids very well. It works well for us up here in the mountains where I get 52 MPG in the summer and 46 in the winter.
My overall view is that it's the cleanest of the hybrids (SULEV instead of ULEV like the Hondas), and has the longest history, being introduced in Japan in 97. There are almost 100,000 of them on the road now.
Ours has been very reliable so far (20 months, 15,000 miles). My only complaint is that the LCD screen does not do enough. There are SO many possibilites for monitoring the hybrid system and displaying the info for the passenger.
When we purchased it, there was a $2,000 tax rebate from the CA government, and free maintinance for three years.
Look for the Toyota Estima next year, the new all wheel drive hybrid currently in use in Japan. It's way cool for a mini-van!
Hope this helps!
-geek
While I can't speak for City Car Share, here at Zipcar we park cars in reserved spaces all around the metro area -- right now we're in Boston, DC, and NYC; you reserve online by the hour, and enter/exit the cars with an access card. When you're done, you park the car back in it's home (generally 5 mins. from your home), and the car sends back your milage for us to bill you. It's very painless, and a great alterative to car ownership, especially in cities where that ownership can run into the tens of thousands per year.
How about an air powered car?
It used jet fuel! It goes fast! It has guns! It doesn't contribute to congestion on the highways! If you get VOTL aircraft you have a viable commute.
Yes sir! Harrier Jump jets are the only way to go.
Are there catalysts to take care of that? :/
Yep
Will they work with US diesel, which is higher in sulfur than what Europeans buy?
Nope
How do direct-injection diesels get the relatively low-soot performance that they do?
IIRC it is via very high (over 10kPSI) injection pressure, which atomizes the fuel more finely than prechambered diesels, leading to more combustion efficiency (fuel efficiency and reduced particulates)..
Check this google cache link (I can't get to tdiclub):
Fuel FAQ
Diesel is a much more efficient technology than
electric if you look at the big picture - That
"clean" electricity has to come from somewhere.
(Coal, Natural Gas, nuke, etc...) There is only so
much "clean" electricity availabe at the moment,
and using it up just means greater demand and
more coal plants.
Diesel VW beetles and golfs (new ones) with
the turbo are getting 65 miles per gallon, better
than a lot of these "hybrids".
...be sure to check out www.greasecar.com . A friend of mine turned me onto this about a year ago. He was working at the time to gather parts in order to turn a Mecedes Benz G Wagon , http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/cars/g-class/defaul t.htm , into a grease contraption. To date he still hasn't built it.
This car is an impressive alternative: http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home .htm
As soon as its in production I'm gonna get one!
Note to self: start playing lottery...
I hear that hydrogen fuel cell cars are coming along pretty well. A lot of companies are making them, so they might become "the" alternative fuel vehicle. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that any are out quite yet.
I just purchased a used Chevy S-10 EV. It was actually an old gas guzzla' converted over to electric by the Cleveland Illuminating Co. a couple of years ago. I'm fixing a few issues, like attempting to revive its old battery bank and avoid spending the extra $2k for a new set. But I'm told that with the components that I have in the truck and the battery bank I should be able to get 50-100 miles per charge. Even on the low end of that range, it's more than enough to get me back an forth to work here in MA. I'm expecting that I'll be dealing with the low end of the range during the winter when the battery bank loses it's charge capacity due to the cold. Anyhow, if this does work out I'm planning to sell my Saturn SL which gets a wee 39-40mpg on my trips to work (why buy a Prius for $7k more for only a few more miles per gallon???). If you're interested in converting your own car or truck, I've gotten a lot of valuable advice from a very friendly and informative guy named 'Bob' at EV America. He was actually the one who gave me the tip on where to buy this used EV. Their website is: http://www.ev-america.com/
These links are for anyone looking for a new car. Please try to get one with the highest MPG (or lowest l/km), lowest emissions, or most recycled, that you can find that still suits your needs.
l
t ml
EPA Green Vehicle Guide
Compares emissions and fuel economy of vehicles in same class
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/
2002 Greenest vehicles:
http://www.greenercars.org/12green.htm
2002 "Meanest" vehicles for the environment:
http://www.greenercars.org/12mean.h
Fuel Economy.Gov
US DOE/EPA site allows you to compare car models
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Auto$mart program (Canada)
EnerGuide (fuel efficiency ratings), driving tips
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/autosmart/
2002 Best MPG Cars (USA)
http://carpoint.msn.com/browse/win_4018922.asp
Automotive Market Environmental Sensitivity Awards
Awards for autos with the best balance of vehicle emissions, fuel efficiency and recycled material content in a vehicle utility class. Lists for the various classes of vehicles for several years.
http://www.amesaward.com/
-mrv
I want my new vehicle to be an alternative fuel vehicle . It will be powered by a mix of Hydrazine and Hydrogen Peroxide. It will go 14,000Mph and gets about 500 feet to a gallon.
:(
Too bad it is not street legal
Anyone guess what it is?
The Americans are smart and like driving cars with automatic transmission, whereas their European counterparts like wrestling with sticks and drive like retards.
There are no popular automatic diesel cars, and in fact, I've never even heard of an automatic diesel car. This may be why they are extremely unpopular in the US. If they made an automatic diesel that was cost effective, I'd get one.
mogorific carpentry experiments
Living in the south (Texas), AC isn't even an option any more. Toyota/Lexus has the best/coldest/mostpowerful ACs, hands down. Nissan/Infinity ACs are close, but Honda/Acura ACs tend to be poor.
So, does the Prius have a "Toyota AC"? What effect does the AC have on the mileage?
I note that when I drive my (ahem...cough cough4runnercough cough) vehicle I typically get 21mpg with AC off. With AC on, I get about 20mpg.
If you are truly interested in protecting the environment, stay away from EVs. The greatest proportion of our electric power comes from coal, which is the worst-polluting form of energy production we have. CNG is the way to go.
They also move up/down as well as back - provided you get the higher spec models. For tall drivers this is absolutely essential. Also the steering wheel should have height/reach adjust to get it away from your knees.
I'm (only!) 6'2, but I have quite reasonable clearance above-head and knees-steering wheel in our (2001) golf. I normally drive it with seat right down and right back, but I can cope (ie. its not as comfortable but my legs/head are not actually jammed against stuff) with it slightly raised and slightly forward, if we need to get stuff in the back.
Solar Panels on the Moon? I missed that article. Off the top of my head, the problem I see is that the moon would only be in line of sight to a ground based receiving station for half of each day, and any particular point on the moon would only be in sunlight for about 14 of every 28 days. How do they overcome those problems?
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
If you're willing to put in a little work and some welding, you could make a pedal car out of two bicycles that would have >=25 mph and an unlimited range.
Voodoo Girl is the bomb!
First of all, HOW IN THE WORLD can you cycle when it's below freezing out??? I never had good experiences cycling when the temperature dropped below 35 F or so - to avoid freezing, I had to wear very bulky clothing which hampered my movement (I was in highschool, couldn't afford expensive stuff, still can't). I also lived in a neighborhood with busy streets and unplowed/icy sidewalks.
Secondly, I'm not so sure about biking if you actually live IN a small city, as I do now (college student). I've already gotten my bike stolen this summer when it was locked up the only place I could find outside. I had to buy a new one from Walmart, because that's all I can afford right now. To top it all off, I STILL can't get a job, because the only places I've found that I'm qualified for are out in the suburbs, >10 miles away. Why do I have to be so poor and cars so expensive!!!!
I love my TDI Volkswagen Jetta. You can also get the engine in a Beetle, Golf, etc. It doesn't have the greatest emmisions ratings, but it does get 45 - 50 MPG (american), and it is fun to drive. It has a lot of torque, so you feel like you are on the end of a really big thick rubber band when you accelerate.
Whatever hybrid you buy today, not many service shops are going to be able to maintain it for you, and it is going to be obsolete in the very near future. This equals a huge extra cost.
The Turbo Direct Inject (TDI) Diesel is familliar to mechanics, and the best part is that you can burn BioDiesel if you can find it. BioDiesel is fuel that is made from vegetable oil. When Rudolph Diesel designed the Diesel engine, he was a visionary who wanted it to run off vegetable oil, and 'save the world.' The oil companies turned it into a good engine for their low-grade petrolium waste.
The drawbacks to BioDiesel is that it is a little less powerful, you'll notice abut %20 less horsepower. It gets waxy quickly in cold weather, and it can 'harden' the plastic / rubber fuel lines in the car, so that you have to replace some of the fuel lines every few years. (reference: cars.com in the 'fringe' part of the Car Talk website)
-Jim
Celebrate Excellence!
Volkswagen is a leader in the fuel-efficiency field. Especially in Europe. They recently designed the world's first 1-litre car (not for sale, yet...). You can find info at http://www.vwvortex.com/news/04_02/04_17/index.sht ml
A 1-litre car is a car that can go 100km on 1L of fuel. That's 235+ mpg, folks! They actually got a bit better than the goal of 1L on a recent test run.
"Oh, I get good gas mileage!" "Oh, I'm helping the enviroment!" You asshats aren't going to pull in any chicks with your 65mpg Tonka truck. Get yourself a '67 Mustang GT with a 289 hi-po and discover that you can have fun driving without needing to feel smug.
Next year Ford will come out with a Hybrid Escape, which is a medium sized SUV. That link doesn't
work in my browser, but maybe it will in yours.
Slightly offtopic, but I recently bought a 2002 Honda Accord EX 4-cylinder sedan (with leather, etc.). The fuel efficiency isn't anything near a hybrid or EV (28 mpg or so), but I was surprised when I opened the hood and saw that it's a SULEV. Strict emissions standards are a good thing.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
You leased a car? You must like throwing money away, or have be so dumbfucking stupid that you let the salesman talk you into a lease. Fuck you stupid idiots!!!!!!11111
I was working at a large NPO in san jose, and got to see this first hand at moffett field.. it was rather impressive.. http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home .htm
Don't forget the Toyota Rav 4. At a recent car show, the Toyota folks had an all-electric Rav 4 that is 'becoming available for the consumer market' instead of just for fleets.
Range ~120 miles / charge. 4-8 hours to recharge. Top speed a little over 80 mph.
The Prius and the Echo are very different cars, though the styling is similar at first glance. Before we bought our Prius, we test drove both and, in comparison, the Echo felt like an underpowered tin can. Not that the Prius is high performance at all; it's just more so than the Echo.
From what I've heard, the Prius is no longer subsidized to any great degree by Toyota. For the first couple of model years (the three it was out in Japan before the release in the U.S.), it was $10K more to make than the US selling price, but manufacturing competency and economies of scale have kicked in. Supposedly, they're profitable for Toyota now. (But do you trust what a car dealer says?)
You're probably right that when the batteries eventually wear out, it'll be cheaper to junk the car than replace them, but resale value of a ten-year old car is down in the noise on a new car purchase. As is the $1000-1500 saved over the life of the car on fuel costs.
-- Another satisfied Prius owner
900 posts into this(What is it that makes this so popular?) I doubt this will be read, but my 2 cents:
Get the insight w/ CVT. Better gas mileage and a completely computer-controlled transmission. This could make as much difference as automatic over manual. Also, and more importantly, looks. The closest thing the prius resembles is someone that needs a nosejob. It is one of the ugliest cars I have seen in a while. It's too short, snubby, and other than being a hybrid, it adds no features we havn't seen on a million other cars. The insight actually looks GOOD, better than most sedans and a lot of sports cars IMO. Another factor: A 2 seater trying to cut down on size is inherently roomier than a 4-seater trying to cut down on size. Better gas mileage, tons better looks, CVT, more room, and(in comparison to your 50 mile electric) u get 600 miles off of 20$(10 gallons) of gas. Much as I would like to reccomend a true alternative fuel car, the infrastructure is just not ready, even if the tech may be.
People in Soviet Russia, however, appear to be afflicted with amusing juxtapositions of the aforementioned situation
I still say the perfect hybrid is human/recumbent... for you
or you and your wife.
Slashdot mentioned the Tzero a while ago. I'm certainly waiting until I can save up the ~$70K to afford one (after they come to market, of course... :P )
In California, you can now lease or buy the Toyota RAV4 EV. I've been leasing one for a little over a year and love it. It has a range of about 100 miles, depending on your speed. It's top end is around 75. It's not quite as zippy as an EV1 (my friends have leased several ), but it's all the fun of an SUV and none of the guilt. You'll qualify for all the rebates and you can get Clean Fuel stickers for the HOV lanes.
Why ask slashdot about alternative fuel cars? A more apropos question might be, what percentage of the slashdot readership is actually old enough to DRIVE a car?
For those US taxpayers with Hybrids be sure to check out the IRS $2k rebate! IRS should have this up & available for 2002 tax year, with applicability to previous years of ownership (may require re-filing for past years, not sure there). I know this applies to hybrids but check if you've got an EV also!
At $2k that's better than the anklebiter deduction. Forget having a kid, get a hybrid! Besides, it's still cheaper annually than a yard monster, even with out the rebate/deduction =-).
BTW, never drive your EV into a small body of water, unless its distilled water. If you do land it in the water, the fire department ain't coming in after you!
According to everything I have read, charging an electric vehicle produces MORE pollution, CO2, NOx, and SOx than simply using gasoline. The reason? Most of the US relies on coal fired plants.
It *seems* like you're saving the planet by going totally electric, but the simple fact of the matter is: you're not.
Low temp PEM fuel cells are probably the "next" thing in cars. Research is finding out that carbon nanotubes "soak up" hydrogen like a sponge, and from the last report I read, a "tank" (they didn't define the size) of hydrogen soaked nanotubes would allow a fuel cell powered car to drive for about 1500 miles w/o a fill-up. Sounds pretty good to me.
My next new car will be the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. Yes, it only gets 51 MPG as opposed to the 60 MPG the Insight gets, but then it looks and drives like a normal car, and seats 5. Furthmore, it will go 660 miles before refueling -- try doing THAT in an all-electric car!
You could take a look at the Rav4 EV, as well. We got to play with one a bit at a fair in Santa Monica last year, and they're really pretty impressive, and a sight bigger than the Prius as well.
It's a shame you americans don't live in europe. we make SMALL cars with SMALL engines that use SMALL amounts if fuel because cars don't need to be BIG. To cite just a few - Peugeot 106, VW lupo/Seat arosa, Renault twingo, MCC smart, etc etc. Most come with 1 litre, 3 cylinder petrol engines or smaller (the smart has a 600cc turbocharged engine) and consume miniscule amounts of fuel. When it comes to fuel efficiency and emissions (and car ergonomics!), the US has a lot to learn from the Europeans (check out the german governments D4 emissions standards.) Most of these HEV and electric vehicles do not sell in Europe because a. they're expensive .b. they consume more fuel than the small cars already available - yes, you'll spend more money on electricity (from an oil fired power plant) than on fuel .c. they're pig ugly. So, not referring to any particular posts here, some people need to do their research a lot better before posting.
Ethenol really is a safe and easy bio friendly fuel. You can convert a regular car engine to ethenol simply be removing any rubber hosing that comes in contact with the fuel. The exhaust of ethenol (from memory) is water and a little bit of carbon dioxide, which not as harmful as carbon monoxide.
I'm regularly stumped as to why persuers of bio friendly fuels aren't chasing this safe and easy
(and cheap to make) fuel source. It has an added benifit that the left over waste from producing sugar to make the ethenol can be used as organic mulch.
-JB
"I love deadlines. I love the "whooshing" sound they make as they pass by." - Douglas Adams.
Right, as long as I'm willing to pay for the gas, who the hell cares what I do? I'd buy an electric car if they had any such thing that had power and performance. My truck pulls 15000 trailers, try doing that with an electric power source in a pickup truck. One of my cars makes over 1000hp and goes 0-60 in less than 3 seconds. The trade off? Poor gas mileage. You have to pay if you want power, simple as that. I'm willing to pay.
I think the biggest resaon why we don't see that many diesel cars in the USA is the fact the diesel fuel sold in the USA has WAY too much sulfur compounds in the fuel, which is highly-corrosive to the fuel-delivery and exhaust control systems found on European diesel cars.
With the EPA mandate to reduce sulfur compounds to under 80 parts per million in diesel fuel by 2005, this may open the way for highly-efficient diesel cars that will offer almost the same performance as gasoline-fuelled engines but at 35-45% better fuel efficiency. And with little or no sulfur compounds to deal with, we can use common-rail direct-injection systems for extremely precise fuel delivery and modern particulate traps and catalytic converters that will ensure that diesel cars meet the ULEV emissions standard.
Already, a demonstration of how effective a diesel engine can get is the amazing Duramax engine found on current-model GM pickup trucks. The Duramax engine allows a pickup truck to pull 8,000 pound trailers at 18 miles per US gallon fuel efficiency, compared to 9 mpg for the equivalent gasoline engine!
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Coolfish,
:-(
Only one problem--the Jetta TDI is not sold in California and a number of Northeastern states because the exhaust emissions from the engine don't meet current emission standards.
To meet emission standards will require a new low-sulfur diesel fuel--something we won't get until 2005.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
6'4" here and fit into my Passat just fine.
Get the new Civic sedan. I uses the hybrid like the Insite.. 85hp gas engine with a 25 hp electric assist.... or better yet, what about that Honda DN-X (also called the dual note... 300 hp v6 gas motor combined with a 100 hp electric assist)
It's sad to read /. and see how sad we here in the U.S. are buying the crap (quite literally) that the oil companies and pulling out of the ground.
While hybrids may be better than nothing, they are more of a feel-good buy than anything else, kind of like how you feel like an environmentalist when you toss your soda can in the recycle bin, even if you then go on to burn large amounts of fossil fuels. If car companies strapped on a few more batteries and let you actually plug the hybrids in, they'd do so much more for the environment. But, like Microsoft, they tout the not being able to plug in and recharge as a feature, not a bug.
On those people who seem to think that all energy conversion is the same, I've got some news for you:
1) Even if all energy came from fossil fuels, a electric motor is going to be more efficient than an internal combustion engine in city or heavy traffic driving, simply because the motor does not run when you're idling.
2) As others have pointed out, it's much more efficient to generate electricity from fossil fuels in a large power plant (for one reason among many, you can run the generators at a constant rpm rate where they are the most efficient).
3) In some parts of the world, even in parts of the oil-hungry U.S., energy comes from other sources, and alternative energy is only going to become more prevalent. For example, here in Seattle, 95% of our electricity comes from hydroelectric power. Yes, there can be environmental issues with fish and water flow, but they pale in comparison to the pollution from fossil fuels.
4) Hydrogen fuel cells are a great concept, particularly if you get the hydrogen cleanly, such as through the electrolysis of water. However, it's much cheaper to get the hydrogen from traditional fossil fuels, so that's what will likely happen, so unfortunately hydrogen fuel cells are not the cure-all solution some oil-company-backed interests would like us to believe they are, although they are still better than traditional fossil fuel usage, for reasons 1&2 above.
Another point to consider is that the average American drives less than 40 miles a day, so pure electric vehicles are particularly reasonable for those who live in a city and can plug in their cars to charge them at night. Electric conversions can be done for a few thousand dollars, see www.cloudelectric.com for details (I am not affiliated with them, but they have some good info on their site).
The drivesystem in a conventional car consists of an internal-combustion engine mechanically coupled to the drive wheels through the transmission, driveshaft, and so on. This is an ingenious but complex and inherently inefficient way of converting fuel into traction at the wheels. A much better way is to have the engine (or other power source) generate electricity from the fuel, which then powers motors that turn the wheels. Such a "hybrid-electric" drivesystem offers several advantages over conventional systems.
Most importantly, the engine needs to handle only the maximum continuous load, not the peak load. Unlike the mechanical torque generated by a conventional system, the hybrid's electricity can be stored temporarily in a small battery or other similar device until it's needed for extra acceleration. Result: the engine can shrink to a fraction of the current normal size, reducing weight, cost, and fuel consumption; and it can always run at or very near its "sweet spot," typically doubling drivesystem efficiency. It can even turn off automatically whenever it's not needed.
Additionally, the electric motors of a hybrid vehicle can recover part of the braking energy that would otherwise be lost as heat in the brakes. They become generators, slowing the vehicle by using its kinetic energy to make electricity that is stored until needed. Some experimental vehicles have demonstrated up to 70-percent peak energy recovery, but recovery of about 50 percent is seen by many experts as a more realistic goal.
And finally, hybrid-electric drive opens the door to other exciting new electrical power sources, such as fuel cells.
The exact workings of hybrid drivesystems vary. There are two basic configurations: parallel and series. For more details on these, see the Hybrid Vehicle Propulsion Program On-Line Resource Center (http://hevdev.nrel.gov).
Many auto manufacturers are now developing or selling hybrid-electric cars, which is a huge leap forward in its own right. However, thanks to the principle of mass decompounding, hybrid-electric drive works better and costs less if you reduce the vehicle's weight and drag first.
Don't confuse hybrid-electric vehicles with battery-electric vehicles . Hybrids generate their own electricity onboard, so they don't have to haul around hundreds of extra pounds of storage batteries, nor do they suffer from the short driving ranges and long recharging times of battery cars.
credit www.rmi.org for this text.
help out.
The Hempcar project had concluded last fall. I'm friends with the crew, who are based near Hampton Roads Va, and had a chance to spend some time at the onset of their trip up the coast in the early Summer of 2001.
The great PR success of the Hempcar project has inspired a similar effort in Japan. The only link I could find on short notice is here.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
45 miles per day = roughly 11,250 miles per year.
At $1.30 per gallon (estimated) that means:
- A normal (non hybrid) sedan that gets 25 mpg will cost $585 a year in gas.
- The hybrid (50 mpg) will cost $265 a year in gas
Net savings: about $320 per year
Now, factor in how much a Prius (@ $20K) costs versus a regular compact sedan like a Corolla (@$14K - plus actually gets more like 30MPG) and it would seem that with a $6K difference in price, you'll have to drive the car for about 18 years before you make up that money.
The discussion has mainly focused on alternative car fuels. Sure technology in this area has a way to go, but the bottom line is CO2 production must be reduced. (esp. by you bloody americans) Farmlands of the future will have to support food production not car fuels, so that leaves the obvious choice of electric cars. Granted electricity has to come from somewhere, probally nuclear for a while (ie No Co2) until technology in alternative energy production is better. Anyway we are running low on everything and you all know it. Catch the bus!
Yeah, but then you'll be driving a nasty diesel engine that belches 50 times as many carcinogens as gasoline.
How about a car that runs on compressed air?a bout_u s.html
http://www.zeropollution.com/zeropollution/
Many car manufacturers are looking at coupling LEV (low-emissions vehicle)-class V6es with electric motors. You get V8-class performance out of an engine combination that can easily exceed 30MPG in light-footed street driving... but it will still press you into your seat when you mash the throttle.
Even if you're not into spirited driving, that extra torque makes the car more driveable around town. It also makes it easier to accelerate away from potential accidents and pass drunken weavers on the freeway.
Well, the VW TDIs are alternative, but if you're driving an EV now, it's not likely a smoky, chokey diesel will be your cup of tea.
Ford makes natural-gas powered vehicles (mainly its Crown Victoria). THey're mainly for fleets, but I'm sure you could get one.
The Toyota Prius is a nice little practical car. I've driven them, and if it weren't for the little display on the dash, you can't tell it apart from any other little econobox.
I wouldn't recommend the Insight. It makes too many sacrifices for the sake of gas mileage.
Ford is coming out with an Escape SUV hybrid, and most automakers are working on hybrid powertrains for their full-size trucks and SUVs.
You could also get a Corvette. No, I'm not joking as much as you think. An easy right foot can get you over 30 MPG in this car at highway speeds (as long as you don't get the hi-po rear axle). That's more than respectable for a V8 that hasn't really changed a whole lot in the past 40 years or so.
Howdy, Just thought I would let you know that we now have 4 of these Hybrid Electric Prius cars at work. At first I was a sceptic of its fuel econemy vs speed and comfort. All of which I can say I was wrong about, the car is most comfortable to drive, fuel econemy is fantastic and speed/power wise its just as nice as an equal sized petrol (or gas for you yanks) car. Go for it. w00dy
pictures posted on net somewhere, but I can't afford to have them slashdotted right now. 9 seconds on the bottle.
Buy yourself big ol' Suburban with the 8.1 liter engine. You won't have to worry about getting killed in an accident, plenty of room, great in snow/driving over death trap cars in traffic/great attitude changer in pedestrians/etc. You won't even hear the pedestrians bouncing off the bumber/panels.
While you are at it, rip the cats out, and reprogram the computer. You'll get better gas mileage, and don't worry about the environment. There is nothing that your big ol' 'burban will do to the environment that nature doesn't do to itself.
;-P
We're on the road to Tycho.
It seems like the perfect fit. As you already own an Accord, the Civic Hybrid will have the Honda quality, reliability, and fit-and-finish you already know and appreciate, and is very easy on the environment. Plus, it's much more useful than maximum-100-miles-between-8-hour-charges pure-electric vehicles.
kW for kW, the internal combustion engine is still more effecient than an electric. Unless you spend hours sitting in traffic going no where.
When you add the generation efficiency, transmission efficiency, storage efficiency, and the efficiency of the electric motor, you end up loosing more energy than you would thru an internal combustion engine. Personally, I think your best bet to save the planet is going with a hybrid electric instead of a pure electric.
Ford Ranger for lease
CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
Have you poor fools already forgotten about the solution to all our problems??? The Smegway!!!
Oh please, not another one of those goddamned earth-loving hippies! I bet you're also one of those anti-god pledge mutationists that are all of the sudden in vogue! Get a clue! By popular vote, (and The President Of The United States Of America), we don't give a shit about earth! We've said, like, down with earth! You're either with us with our opinion, or you're against us! We hate mother earth - 'cause we're a nation under God, duh! Haven't you realized? In this post-9-11 world, you're either a christian white male who hates the ozone layer or else. We're going to stuff our monotheism up your ass! Don't even think about recycling that can, Stan! Wanting to save the earth is surely political correctness gone nutty, and if you think your life should be saved for disagreeing, you godless communist, well you're surely nuts. In conclusion, miguel de icaza loves monopolist MS's .net while you loves to suk big hik dik, hyuk hyuuk.
Just a little addition to the above. An awful lot of corn grown these days is BT corn (genetically engineered corn with an organic pesticide gene added). I don't have any exact numbers, but I'm fairly certain that it's somewhere in the 50% range. This further reduces the amount of pesticide beyond the techniques mentioned above.
:> ).
Farming is very much a high-tech business these days, at least in North America and most of Europe (and at least for those farmers that wish to stay in business
http://www.thinkmobility.com/homeUK.asp
90km/t max speed
85 km range (at 80 km/t)
I would like to point out that the Prius is a SULEV.
Its puts out significantly less emissions then those low fuel VWs and the Insight.
It is also huge inside, and comes with lots of kick ass features standard (power windows and door locks, . If you are into hacking, you can hack the local area network on the prius and plug video games and what not into the display screen. you can even hook up mp3 players and other cool gadgets.
Let's see:
* power plant efficiency: nuclear ~28%, charcoal ~35%, modern gas-steam-processes ~57%; now mix it -> ~35% for the complete mix; we don't consider wind, solar and water powered plants as they only contibute around 5% to the complete mix.
* ~90% efficiency for getting the current to your wall socket
* 90%*35%=31.5%
* add the efficiency of your car's AC/DC-converter and the batteries and electric engines effieciency: about 90% each. 90%^3=73%
* multiply: 31.5%*73%=23%
Thus about 23% of the "raw" energy is actually getting to your car's "crankshaft"!
Modern Turbodiesel engines have a *total* efficiency of well over 40%! You do the math. Get yourself a VW-Rabbit or a Peugeot 306 (Diesel, of course). Better for the environment in any case. *Plus* you can make it run practically *any* sort of veggi oil: nut-oil, corn-oil, you name it! Biodiesel too, of course.
These are supposed to be REALLY nice. Check the Toyota website.
> VW/Audi sells six different diesels in Europe (1.2l, 1.9l - 90hp, 1.9l - 110hp, 1.9l -115hp, 2.5l - 150hp, V8 3.3l - 225hp[available soon])
Uhm no, they have more than that: 1.4l (not 1.2l) inline 3 with 75hp, 1.9l inline 4 with hps 90/100/110/130/150 and 2.5 V6 155/180. And then there are the other manufacturers.
Problem is, from all these engines, only the 1.9l 90hp and 1.9l 110hp are suitable for the US market because they don't use direct Diesel injection techniques (Common Rail or pump injectors), and Diesel injection engines indeed require better grade Diesel than what's on sale in the US (sulfur ppm is too high, up to 500, EU Diesel fuel has a law-enforced 15ppm max - sulfur is the thing which is responsible for black smoke). Other manufacturers' engines ALL use direct injection techniques.
Buying a TDI is merely a good idea in the US nowadays due to that sulfur problem, which makes it for particles emitted in the air. These are proved to be cancer agents. Maybe a TDI is a good idea if you can find an aftermarket particle filter, but given its way of operating, I seirously doubt it.
If it's just for commuting then Honda's Insight is by far the better choice (do you really *need* more than 2 seats? And the cargo space in the hatch is not ridiculous, ya know) but you'll have to adapt your driving style.
BMW has been working on Hydrogen Power for quite some time now. Have a look at: http://www.bmw.com/bmwe/efficient_dynamics/cleanen ergy/index.html
While the waiting list is pretty long and the price is high, you can get an electric car with a 100+ mile range that does the quarter mile faster than a late 90's Vette. Go see the T-Zero at A/C Propulsion's site.
Another way to go is to find an electric car conversion shop or individual. Purchase a cheap ICE vehicle, spend another $6-$10K converting it and you have a vehicle that will last as long as the body holds up that looks like everyone elses car, but needs far less maintenence and no gasoline.
Or you could just do the whole thing yourself. If done right your range will be between 40 and 60 miles per charge.
Remember Optima Yellow Top deep cycle batteries are your friends.
Once more unto the breach dear friends...
Granted, I'm only 6'2", but I fit in a '99 Passat with lots of room to spare (and without adjusting the seat to the extreme). However, the one I drive has comfort-level seats (extra option), I haven't driven one with standard seats.
The Smog Index is a LIE!!!!
Here's the deal:
All diesels vehicles under 3750lbs are assigned a "1.82".
What is this based on? Measurements? NOPE. It's based on the maximum allowable limits for Tier 1 diesel vehicles.
It's based on the fact that all diesel vehicles are required to meet Tier I emissions standards. A VW TDI is WELL below the levels required to meet Tier 1. But it still gets a 1.82.
Why? Because it is in the Tier 1 category.
If it has actual emissions below that, can it qualify for a better category? Nope. Why? Because that's the only category.
I looked up the actual EPA test data for the TDI. It's well below. It almost qualifies for LEV. Yes, the NOx and PM are higher, but only a little bit higher, in reality. And that's running EPA diesel #2. I live in California and run on CARB diesel - with much lower sulfur and much higher cetane and lower aromatic content. So my actual emissions are far below the tested figures.
Actually, lately I've been buying Arco ECD-1 diesel, which is as good as anything sold in Europe, at 15ppm.
Hmm yes your right, I swear when I first saw this ~>2 years ago the review said it was a Diesel, not gas.
:/
I wonder if Honda make one that looks like the Insight (as I couldnt swear the one I saw was called an "Insight", just that it was a Honda), or maybe the rep just got it wrong
there is an article about green cars (not cars painted green ;) ) in this months physics world
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/7/9
True, tractors don't burn that much fuel, but there are other energy inputs required. Typical fertilizer production (primarily nitrates synthesized from air) is extremely energy-intensive. Pesticides take some energy. Hauling the fertilizer to the farm takes a little, hauling the corn away takes more. Fermentation and distillation take a considerable input of heat. Overall, using the methods most common in America for each step, you'd get more ethanol per barrel of oil by directly converting it in a factory rather than growing corn - and with less labor and capital investment. This is reflected in a lower price for synthesized ethanol...
OTOH, maybe the methods could change without cutting the yield too much. For example: synthetic fertilizer (nitrates made from air) requires a lot of energy - but (in the US at least) feedlot operators often have trouble disposing of their natural fertilizer byproduct. It takes labor, machinery, and some fuel to haul the manure to the farms, spread it, and clean up. And for some reason, it's hard to hire people for this work... So with the price of energy held down by government policies in the US, the synthetic nitrates are cheaper than picking up "free" manure a few hundred miles away.
I think alcohol is the way to go. It's cheap. Existing cars can easily be adapted to it so people who can't afford new cars can continue to user theirs. We can stop paying farmers to not grow crops and they can actually grow grain for their own profit.
The downside of alcohol is that it does not produce the same BTU's per volume as gasoline, so your fuel milage is nearly half with alcohol. It's also more flamable than gas and you can't see the flame in daylight. It is also corrosive to certain metals, and so a few fuel system components would need to be replaced... not a biggie.
I think pure electrical is bad because they are not zero emmisions as many environmentalist would have you think... they need electricity, electricty needs to come from power plants, power plants produce polution. I am an environmentalist by the way.
Hybrids are complex and are more difficult to repair... plus they are weak.
Hydrogen is cool, but old cars would not be easily adapted.
In the context of polution, ARCO said some years ago that they can produce a very clean gasoline, but that people were not willing to pay the temporary extra cost. In a gas shortage context, I wish somebody would explain the economics of mass produced synthetic gasoline to monitor how viable it is.
Abdul
reminds me a reverse of the blue three-wheel car that was Mr. Bean's nemesis in a couple of episodes.
The hempcar japan site is here.hempcar japan
It isn't for everyone, but Lindsay sells several books on how to convert or build alternative fuel cars. From my last catalog (not everyone is online, so get the dead tree catalog - every geek should have it anyway) I recall books on cars that run on Steam, Wood, Hydrogen, and Elctric. Some of the designs are more dangerious than you want to use, and some are obsolete, but they are still a good starting point. Convert your current engine to a new fuel, replace the engine with something else, or build your own horseless carrage.
Expiriment with weird things like the Atkinson cycle engine, tesla turbine, Stirling cycle engine. Make a solar charger with cells you build yourself. Make your own alcohol. Put a windmill on the roof and get free power (good luck overcoming some pesty laws of physics on this one). There is probable something about fuel cells in there too.
- Fuel for cultivation and spraying;
- Fertilizer and pesticides; and
- Processing and distillation of the product.
If we were just trying to get off imported oil for motor fuel, the way to go would be to use CNG, LNG or oxidize methane to methanol to make liquid motor fuel. There are a bunch of manufacturers making cars that run on M85.Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Here in Chicago, we've made an art out of it. In particular, o local Bike Winter advocate has written a veritable howto article.
That sucks, I know the feeling. My advice is to go even cheaper next time. Get a ratty looking old dependable bike like a schwinn or raleigh from your local thrift scene. Or if you're anywhere near Chicago, Central America or the Caribbean hook up with the Working Bikes co-op. There's a list of similar organizations all over the US here.
Hmm, I think it has something to do with the American Dream, or some other conspiracy. ;)
gasoline and diesel are both fossil fuels.
diesel (city/highway):
VW Jetta TDI manual: 42/49 MPG
VW Jetta TDI auto: 34/45 MPG
gasoline (city/highway):
Honda Civic hybrid manual: 46/51 MPG
Honda Civic hybrid auto: 48/47 MPG
Toyota Prius auto: 52/45 MPG
Honda Insight auto: 57/56 MPG
Honda Insight manual: 61/70 MPG
of course, there's always the caveat of your mileage may vary. lifetime MPG (1.5 years, 13k miles) on my Prius is 48MPG, although I have seen 68MPG on a tankful once. Some Insight drivers have reported over 100MPG on their tanks.
-mrv
According to Toyota site:
Prius is so clean-burning that it has been certified as a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV).* What this means is that Prius runs nearly 75 percent cleaner than the standard for Ultra Low Emission Vehicles (Honda hybrid)
I have put over 10k miles on my VW Passat TDI running 100% (B100 as they say) biodiesel, derived from recycled fryer oil.
;-) The problem you mention with fuel lines has not happened to me; one or two others with older cars on the tdi formum (www.tdiclub.com) did have a problem with the lines weeping but they easily replaced them. I've heard new cars won't have this problem because they use better material in their lines.
The power deficit you mention is unnoticable in this car, and the car runs smoother too. Smells better, actually pleasant (if you like french fries
I'm getting about the same mpg as with dino fuel, about 47mpg combined city and highway. And this is a real car, comfortable, 3500 lbs, not a toy like the hybrids.
It is a new technology and requires a little know-how to use but it's available now (although the distribution is spotty and cost variable currently). I enjoy being off fossil fuels...
I think biodiesel will soon surpass all other alternative fuels. And the nice thing is, the car can use regular old dino diesel if you need fuel out on the highway - although with an 800 mile cruise range I rarely need to bother with that. I have my biodiesel in a 275 gallon tote at home.
I'm constantly behind fairly new VW and Audi (same thing) diesels on the road that spew diesel smoke. The brand-new ones don't, but after a year or so they start spewing smoke when the driver hits the gas, and it goes downhill from there.
I'm very sensitive to diesel smoke (makes me sick), so I notice it every time.
As long as I've heard from gas users, any fuel car is able to be transformed in a gas car (where you can switch between both sources at any moment)... You only need space under the seats to carry the gas bottle which's size determines the hours of autonomy of the car...
What I do not know well is if there is any car that works with a real alternative energy like Hydrogen. There was an interesting article about it some months ago in Slashdot. It was about the discovery of huge sources of hydrogen.
Rwe obliged 2 save our future by choosing:O3 hole-greenhouse effect instead of accepting everydays gossip-nonsense chat?