Slashdot Mirror

Hey.
I have a fix for you.
Add krandrtray to your list of Autostarted applications.

See this bug for more information:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163707

What part of the release announcement, http://kde.org/announcements/4.0/ actually says it's a tester release?

Surely not the parts about how it's "for every day use" or how it's they "Ship Fourth Major Version"

Early release of 4.0 was targeted precisely at developers and in fact release notes claimed nothing else but "stabilized interface for KDE 4.x series".

Really? Try reading it again: http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/

Here's a taste:

"The KDE 4 Desktop has gained some major new capabilities. The Plasma desktop shell offers a new desktop interface, including panel, menu and widgets on the desktop as well as a dashboard function. KWin, the KDE Window manager, now supports advanced graphical effects to ease interaction with your windows.

Lots of KDE Applications have seen improvements as well. Visual updates through vector-based artwork, changes in the underlying libraries, user interface enhancements, new features, even new applications -- you name it, KDE 4.0 has it. Okular, the new document viewer and Dolphin, the new file manager are only two applications that leverage KDE 4.0's new technologies. "

That type of marketing talk is aimed directly at users, not developers.

AS far as I can remember KDE 4.0 was well know not to be really ready.

Yeah, after everyone tried it and declared it was not really ready. Sure, if you were an avid reader of KDE devel blogs you may have gotten the impression that it wasn't ready for end users (though always followed by the caveat of "but it's fantastic!"), but if you thought that the distinction between their beta/RCs and final release actually meant something, or just read the release announcement http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/, you'd have understandably believed it was ready.

GIMP and Paint.NET aren't as good as Photoshop
Inkscape isn't as good as Illustrator
VLC isn't as good as The KMPlayer
Songbird isn't as good as foobar2000, Xion, Winamp or iTunes
Jahshaka isn't as good as Premiere or Media Composer
Blender isn't as good as Maya, 3D Studio or LightWave 3D
GCC isn't as good as Visual Studio

Try comparing apples with apples.

GIMP 2.6 and later is as capable as Photoshop. It now has 32-bit colourspces even. Considering that Photoshop is about $800, and GIMP is $0 ... you are really going to be scratching here to find a reason why one should use Photoshop in preference.

If you don't like the GIMP UI ... try Krita.

> Inkscape isn't as good as Illustrator

Debateable. Inkscape is pretty good, and getting better all the time.

> VLC isn't as good as The KMPlayer

Ok ... so use KMPlayer then. It is available for Linux.
http://kmplayer.kde.org/

Oh sorry ... did you mean this one?
http://kmplayer.en.softonic.com/

Meh. A Winamp clone. They are a dime a dozen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audacious_Media_Player

> Songbird isn't as good as foobar2000, Xion, Winamp or iTunes

OK, you don't like Songbird? ... so use Amarok then ... the very best software for your media collection ... and it supports iPods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarok_(software)
http://amarok.kde.org/
http://amarok.kde.org/en/screenshots

> Blender isn't as good as Maya, 3D Studio or LightWave 3D

You are kidding, surely? Blender is the best by far ... I have heard however that because of the exceedingly poor support for OpenGL on Windows, Blender doesn't run very well on that platform. So do it like Pixar and others do it ... run Blender on Linux.

> GCC isn't as good as Visual Studio

How do you figure that? GCC is the premier compiler set in the world. It targets more architectures, and handles more software langauges, than any other compiler.

Did you mean an Indetgrated Development Environment, perhaps?

Try Eclipse then.

http://www.eclipse.org/

Or perhaps something like Kdevelop in conjunction with Qt designer is more to your taste:
http://www.kdevelop.org/
http://www.qtsoftware.com/products/appdev

Really, if you are going to compare applications, at least choose comparable ones. Oh, and if you want to run decent applications at good speed, then it would help immensely if you weaned yourself off of Windows.

As for *good* open source games, try these:
http://ubuntulinuxhelp.com/top-12-best-games-for-ubuntu-linux-1-tremulous/

http://rangit.com/software/top-8-linux-games-of-2007/

Enjoy.

GIMP and Paint.NET aren't as good as Photoshop
Inkscape isn't as good as Illustrator
VLC isn't as good as The KMPlayer
Songbird isn't as good as foobar2000, Xion, Winamp or iTunes
Jahshaka isn't as good as Premiere or Media Composer
Blender isn't as good as Maya, 3D Studio or LightWave 3D
GCC isn't as good as Visual Studio

Try comparing apples with apples.

GIMP 2.6 and later is as capable as Photoshop. It now has 32-bit colourspces even. Considering that Photoshop is about $800, and GIMP is $0 ... you are really going to be scratching here to find a reason why one should use Photoshop in preference.

If you don't like the GIMP UI ... try Krita.

> Inkscape isn't as good as Illustrator

Debateable. Inkscape is pretty good, and getting better all the time.

> VLC isn't as good as The KMPlayer

Ok ... so use KMPlayer then. It is available for Linux.
http://kmplayer.kde.org/

Oh sorry ... did you mean this one?
http://kmplayer.en.softonic.com/

Meh. A Winamp clone. They are a dime a dozen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audacious_Media_Player

> Songbird isn't as good as foobar2000, Xion, Winamp or iTunes

OK, you don't like Songbird? ... so use Amarok then ... the very best software for your media collection ... and it supports iPods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarok_(software)
http://amarok.kde.org/
http://amarok.kde.org/en/screenshots

> Blender isn't as good as Maya, 3D Studio or LightWave 3D

You are kidding, surely? Blender is the best by far ... I have heard however that because of the exceedingly poor support for OpenGL on Windows, Blender doesn't run very well on that platform. So do it like Pixar and others do it ... run Blender on Linux.

> GCC isn't as good as Visual Studio

How do you figure that? GCC is the premier compiler set in the world. It targets more architectures, and handles more software langauges, than any other compiler.

Did you mean an Indetgrated Development Environment, perhaps?

Try Eclipse then.

http://www.eclipse.org/

Or perhaps something like Kdevelop in conjunction with Qt designer is more to your taste:
http://www.kdevelop.org/
http://www.qtsoftware.com/products/appdev

Really, if you are going to compare applications, at least choose comparable ones. Oh, and if you want to run decent applications at good speed, then it would help immensely if you weaned yourself off of Windows.

As for *good* open source games, try these:
http://ubuntulinuxhelp.com/top-12-best-games-for-ubuntu-linux-1-tremulous/

http://rangit.com/software/top-8-linux-games-of-2007/

Enjoy.

GIMP and Paint.NET aren't as good as Photoshop
Inkscape isn't as good as Illustrator
VLC isn't as good as The KMPlayer
Songbird isn't as good as foobar2000, Xion, Winamp or iTunes
Jahshaka isn't as good as Premiere or Media Composer
Blender isn't as good as Maya, 3D Studio or LightWave 3D
GCC isn't as good as Visual Studio

Try comparing apples with apples.

GIMP 2.6 and later is as capable as Photoshop. It now has 32-bit colourspces even. Considering that Photoshop is about $800, and GIMP is $0 ... you are really going to be scratching here to find a reason why one should use Photoshop in preference.

If you don't like the GIMP UI ... try Krita.

> Inkscape isn't as good as Illustrator

Debateable. Inkscape is pretty good, and getting better all the time.

> VLC isn't as good as The KMPlayer

Ok ... so use KMPlayer then. It is available for Linux.
http://kmplayer.kde.org/

Oh sorry ... did you mean this one?
http://kmplayer.en.softonic.com/

Meh. A Winamp clone. They are a dime a dozen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audacious_Media_Player

> Songbird isn't as good as foobar2000, Xion, Winamp or iTunes

OK, you don't like Songbird? ... so use Amarok then ... the very best software for your media collection ... and it supports iPods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarok_(software)
http://amarok.kde.org/
http://amarok.kde.org/en/screenshots

> Blender isn't as good as Maya, 3D Studio or LightWave 3D

You are kidding, surely? Blender is the best by far ... I have heard however that because of the exceedingly poor support for OpenGL on Windows, Blender doesn't run very well on that platform. So do it like Pixar and others do it ... run Blender on Linux.

> GCC isn't as good as Visual Studio

How do you figure that? GCC is the premier compiler set in the world. It targets more architectures, and handles more software langauges, than any other compiler.

Did you mean an Indetgrated Development Environment, perhaps?

Try Eclipse then.

http://www.eclipse.org/

Or perhaps something like Kdevelop in conjunction with Qt designer is more to your taste:
http://www.kdevelop.org/
http://www.qtsoftware.com/products/appdev

Really, if you are going to compare applications, at least choose comparable ones. Oh, and if you want to run decent applications at good speed, then it would help immensely if you weaned yourself off of Windows.

As for *good* open source games, try these:
http://ubuntulinuxhelp.com/top-12-best-games-for-ubuntu-linux-1-tremulous/

http://rangit.com/software/top-8-linux-games-of-2007/

Enjoy.

And (don't shoot me) I was given an iPod for my birthday a few years ago, and I actually like it - and dual-boot to Windows to maintain it.

Psst, that's mostly unnecessary, unless you're purchasing music off of iTunes. AFAIK, Amarok can sync with iPods just fine, and I believe Rhythmbox and various other Linux-native players can too.

      --- Mr. DOS

It probably comes with KDE4 for Windows.

Personally, I've never had a problem with Adobe Reader on any platform

Most of us have never had a problem with it...except that it required 335 megs of disk space on Windows. 1/3 gig just to read and print PDFs? The Linux install needs only 125 megs. Why?

I just don't see the need to have a directory of PDF readers.

Either will average Joe user unless the directory puts a two-page ad in the New York Times. The only people who will know about that page are the ones who already use a non-Adobe reader! For Windows I find that Foxit suits my needs and somehow I don't feel guilty about using a proprietary reader(I use the default readers on Linux).

But PDF readers are old news...The only new thing I learned from the site is that there's a -- holy shit! -- KDE on Windows project!

When you drag a folder from the file manager to the desktop you get a little menu asking if you want an icon or a FolderView.

With no explanation of what the difference is, or why you should care.

The fact that you can have two objects on the desktop which look exactly the same, have the same properties (as per properties dialog), but are two different kinds of object, is a UI disaster. But not one the KDE developers care about.

First. If it's not for end users it should be beta or an alpha.
That's what these tags exist for.

Second. Where the fuck did they say that?
http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/

In this case, the KDE team was clear that what the .0 meant was "API stable; will eat babies." It wasn't a huge secret, they plastered it all over the internet.

Well, let's see: http://kde.org/announcements/4.0/ Or check out the first Slashdot story. Unless you actually read through the comments, you'll never know. And isn't it the LEAST interested people who needed to know? They managed to warn everyone who was deeply interested in KDE4, when they really needed to reach and warn the casual users who ended up thinking, "Neat, it's finally here! I'll try it as soon as my distro makes it an option."

OSS is a big world, and nobody follows alls the news about projects they're only marginally interested in. Linus Torvalds was evidently a casual user of KDE who did not follow the news obsessively enough to have the correct, informed expectations of KDE 4.0 and 4.1.

And even if you're an OSS news junky, you got to read things like this on osnews.com:

KDE 4.0 is the first release of "KDE 4", but take note that the developers have clearly stated that KDE 4.0 is not KDE 4, but more of a base release with all the underlying systems ready to go, but with still a lot of work to be done on the user-visible side.

"KDE 4.0 is not KDE 4." Um, at that point they must have known that they were sending mixed, confusing messages. They could have used a different label for the release. Obviously they wanted broader exposure and credit for making a point-oh release. They got both, and they got the backlash.

... it was (obviously) all over the damn front page of kde.org...

Hm, I just can't find it:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080113080143/http://www.kde.org/
And the release announcement only mentions "major improvements", "major new capabilities", "improvements" etc..
http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/
Am I missing something?
The announcement for 4.1 on the other hand has been quite clear about this.

For those interested in getting packages to test and contribute , several distributions have notified us that they will have KDE 4.0 packages available at or soon after the release.

What part of the release being intended for people to test and contribute is unclear there? The statement was not "For those interested in getting packages to install and replace their existing desktop environment." In that same section, there is a list of distributions that had/have packages for the 4.0 release and many have "alpha" or "experimental" in the description.

Neither the WayBack Machine nor the kubuntu.org site have complete records around that time, but this shows that at least 4.0RC2 was also being released as a test "If you want to test KDE 4 ...".

If we go look at the 4.1 announcement:

While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early adopting users, some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not implemented yet. The KDE team is working on those and strives to make them available in one of the next releases. While there is no guarantee that every single feature from KDE 3.5 will be implemented, KDE 4.1 already provides a powerful and feature-rich working environment. Note that some options in the UI have moved to a place in the context of the data they manipulate, so make sure you have a closer look before you report anything missing in action. KDE 4.1 is a huge step forward in the KDE4 series and hopefully sets the pace for future development. KDE 4.2 can be expected in January 2009.

That's also pretty clear that 4.1 is not intended for the average end-user. As if declaring it is the firstKDE4 release intended for even early adopters wasn't enough, the tone of the announcement is still one of "Get it, run it, test it."

Contrast that with the 4.2 announcement that "the KDE Community is now confident we have a compelling offering for the majority of end users." The tone of the 4.2 announcement is much more install it and "Spread the Word."

So maybe the KDE devs didn't plaster the site in blink tags with spinning siren gifs and bold red text saying "OMFG DON'T USE THIS, IT IS BROKEN AND WILL EAT YOUR COMPUTER. IN FACT, IF YOU EVEN ARE THINKING ABOUT USING THIS YOU ARE RETARDED AND SHOULD BE STERILIZED." That doesn't excuse you from ignoring what they stated in the announcement. Of course they mentioned the new technology and features they were developing into the new platform. The point is to get people excited about it so that they will test and contribute. Do end-users test and contribute? No, not really.

For those interested in getting packages to test and contribute , several distributions have notified us that they will have KDE 4.0 packages available at or soon after the release.

What part of the release being intended for people to test and contribute is unclear there? The statement was not "For those interested in getting packages to install and replace their existing desktop environment." In that same section, there is a list of distributions that had/have packages for the 4.0 release and many have "alpha" or "experimental" in the description.

Neither the WayBack Machine nor the kubuntu.org site have complete records around that time, but this shows that at least 4.0RC2 was also being released as a test "If you want to test KDE 4 ...".

If we go look at the 4.1 announcement:

While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early adopting users, some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not implemented yet. The KDE team is working on those and strives to make them available in one of the next releases. While there is no guarantee that every single feature from KDE 3.5 will be implemented, KDE 4.1 already provides a powerful and feature-rich working environment. Note that some options in the UI have moved to a place in the context of the data they manipulate, so make sure you have a closer look before you report anything missing in action. KDE 4.1 is a huge step forward in the KDE4 series and hopefully sets the pace for future development. KDE 4.2 can be expected in January 2009.

That's also pretty clear that 4.1 is not intended for the average end-user. As if declaring it is the firstKDE4 release intended for even early adopters wasn't enough, the tone of the announcement is still one of "Get it, run it, test it."

Contrast that with the 4.2 announcement that "the KDE Community is now confident we have a compelling offering for the majority of end users." The tone of the 4.2 announcement is much more install it and "Spread the Word."

So maybe the KDE devs didn't plaster the site in blink tags with spinning siren gifs and bold red text saying "OMFG DON'T USE THIS, IT IS BROKEN AND WILL EAT YOUR COMPUTER. IN FACT, IF YOU EVEN ARE THINKING ABOUT USING THIS YOU ARE RETARDED AND SHOULD BE STERILIZED." That doesn't excuse you from ignoring what they stated in the announcement. Of course they mentioned the new technology and features they were developing into the new platform. The point is to get people excited about it so that they will test and contribute. Do end-users test and contribute? No, not really.

I have Offline gmail since long now, thanks to IMAP4 and the "disconnected IMAP" by KMail.

I also really dig that I can run KDE (including Plasma) on Windows.

I had severe doubts about your sanity when I read that, but it turns out you're right! I have to try that...

That's even more worrying given the amount of rhetoric Open Source throws at Microsoft for not adhering to standards. Not sticking an uninstall option in the Add/Remove programs list might be seen as a bit more than remiss.

There's a discussion on the matter...

http://forum.kde.org/how-to-remove-kde-from-windows-t-20596.html

KDE was adamantly clear that KDE 4.0 was not a 'user' release, but was solely for third party developers to actually get involved and start porting, and to make a difference.

Well, here's the original release announcement for KDE 4.0:

http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/

Now can we please stop with this revisionist history.

That pretty much says it all right there.

http://windows.kde.org/

I don't get paid. :P

Some devs get paid by Linux-related companies but not to work on KDE necessarily.

Lots of KDE devs get paid... to work on Qt.

There are a few sponsored devs though, including Aaron Seigo (who is a core dev and KDE e.V. President of the Board but is not "project leader")

But all in all, the vast majority of developer time seems to me to come from volunteers. Perhaps someone should chart it someday a la the LWN.net tracking of Linux kernel contributors.

"The aim of the KDE project for the 4.0 release is to put the foundations in place for future innovations on the Free Desktop. The many newly introduced technologies incorporated in the KDE libraries will make it easier for developers to add rich functionality to their applications, combining and connecting different components in any way they want."

From the 4.0 beta 4 release notes. Apparently someone forgot that paragraph in the final notes, but it still stands.
Anyone who actually cared at the time, and was looking over things, playing with pre-release versions, looking over blogs, actually listening to what people were saying, it was said countless times. One KDE developer joked it was the 'eat your children' release.

Even in the KDE keynote address (at the launch event, available online), they talked about how it was more of a foundational release.

Several months later, they officially countered many of the points being put forth about KDE 4.0 and 4.1.

People are happy enough to complain, but people, including KDE developers, were talking about this for months in advance of KDE 4.0's release, and after. It's been widely expected that KDE 4.2 would be the 'proper' release for a long while.

It's not that KDE fanboys, or developers (I'm neither) have revisionist history, it's that some people who'd prefer to argue or complain after the fact, weren't paying attention or conveniently develop amnesia.

Who was expecting the KDE folks to pull a magical perfect fully functional release, all of a sudden out of their collective arses, concurrently with KDevelop, KOffice, Amarok, and other software versions, when they had to rewrite major portions to take full advantage of Qt 4.4? KDE 4.0 was internally in development for over two years. It took them a scant year to circle the wagons after a "we're eating children and releasing early to sync up with third parties and make it possible to develop against more conveniently" release to make a stable user-oriented version. Big deal. According to other posts and snarky comments on Slashdot, it's taking Windows 7 3 years (with no development libraries or early previews to target as an average developer, until Beta 1 SDK released, concurrently with Beta 1 itself) to release an annoying graphical update to Windows Vista. People tend to be 'slightly' overreacting and skewing for their own fan base there as well.

KDE 3.5.10 was released just this last August (2008). I'm not saying that 4.0 or 4.1 was a great idea, just that it was sensible from their point of view, and warned about in a copious manner. It's fairly unbelievable that people would freak out -that- badly if they weren't interested enough about the software or desktop environment to read anything surrounding the event, including previews, beta notes, statements from individual developers, color commentary from the peanut gallery, or much of anything else.

When KDE 3.0 was released, did every possible feature and customization for 2.x somehow survive immediately? People used to be more on the fence until a few releases in.

I bet that by the time KDE 4.3 is released (currently scheduled for July), it won't even matter that everyone was so eager to complain about the developer versions when the stable version (3.5) was still available, worked, was maintained, and could easily be installed side-by-side.

Even if, somehow, you were confused about the nature of KDE 4.0 or 4.1, no one was holding a gun to your head to force

"The aim of the KDE project for the 4.0 release is to put the foundations in place for future innovations on the Free Desktop. The many newly introduced technologies incorporated in the KDE libraries will make it easier for developers to add rich functionality to their applications, combining and connecting different components in any way they want."

From the 4.0 beta 4 release notes. Apparently someone forgot that paragraph in the final notes, but it still stands.
Anyone who actually cared at the time, and was looking over things, playing with pre-release versions, looking over blogs, actually listening to what people were saying, it was said countless times. One KDE developer joked it was the 'eat your children' release.

Even in the KDE keynote address (at the launch event, available online), they talked about how it was more of a foundational release.

Several months later, they officially countered many of the points being put forth about KDE 4.0 and 4.1.

People are happy enough to complain, but people, including KDE developers, were talking about this for months in advance of KDE 4.0's release, and after. It's been widely expected that KDE 4.2 would be the 'proper' release for a long while.

It's not that KDE fanboys, or developers (I'm neither) have revisionist history, it's that some people who'd prefer to argue or complain after the fact, weren't paying attention or conveniently develop amnesia.

Who was expecting the KDE folks to pull a magical perfect fully functional release, all of a sudden out of their collective arses, concurrently with KDevelop, KOffice, Amarok, and other software versions, when they had to rewrite major portions to take full advantage of Qt 4.4? KDE 4.0 was internally in development for over two years. It took them a scant year to circle the wagons after a "we're eating children and releasing early to sync up with third parties and make it possible to develop against more conveniently" release to make a stable user-oriented version. Big deal. According to other posts and snarky comments on Slashdot, it's taking Windows 7 3 years (with no development libraries or early previews to target as an average developer, until Beta 1 SDK released, concurrently with Beta 1 itself) to release an annoying graphical update to Windows Vista. People tend to be 'slightly' overreacting and skewing for their own fan base there as well.

KDE 3.5.10 was released just this last August (2008). I'm not saying that 4.0 or 4.1 was a great idea, just that it was sensible from their point of view, and warned about in a copious manner. It's fairly unbelievable that people would freak out -that- badly if they weren't interested enough about the software or desktop environment to read anything surrounding the event, including previews, beta notes, statements from individual developers, color commentary from the peanut gallery, or much of anything else.

When KDE 3.0 was released, did every possible feature and customization for 2.x somehow survive immediately? People used to be more on the fence until a few releases in.

I bet that by the time KDE 4.3 is released (currently scheduled for July), it won't even matter that everyone was so eager to complain about the developer versions when the stable version (3.5) was still available, worked, was maintained, and could easily be installed side-by-side.

Even if, somehow, you were confused about the nature of KDE 4.0 or 4.1, no one was holding a gun to your head to force

You seem to be confused. From the KDE 4.1 release announcement:

• the new desktop shell Plasma, introduced in KDE 4.0, has matured to the point where it can replace the KDE 3 shell for most casual users

• KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early adopting users

• KDE 4.1 already provides a powerful and feature-rich working environment

That sounds exactly the opposite of what you claimed. Could it be due to my inability to read? In that case, could you point out exactly where the KDE explicitly said "don't use this, not for end users"? Because they sure didn't said it when they released it nor when distributions like kubuntu opted to ship it.

Woah...it's pretty

Yes, because they did away with the well-established themeable, accelerated, accessible, translatable, Qt GUI Widgets, and based made up a new "plasmoid" system that's almost entirely incompatible with all that. It's pretty, but most of the features have been sacrificed for that, and it'll take AGES to get those features on a parallel, if they ever can.

?

Plasma is if anything more themeable than kicker and kdesktop were.

Plasma (especially in its KDE 4.0 and 4.1 incarnations) was short of the old kicker in features (although much better than the old kdesktop, even including SuperKaramba) I know there are still things that kicker did that Plasma can't (multiple panels stacking on an edge springs to mind) but featurewise it's mostly there now.

As far as widgets go, Plasma does use subclasses of Qt widgets, just like the rest of KDE. I wasn't aware that this is considered weird or out of place however. (To be pedantic, the widgets are subclasses of a QGraphicsView proxy widget and not direct QWidget subclasses e.g. Plasma::PushButton).

The translation system is KDE's not Qt's so that works fine in Plasma. To be honest accessibility support was never KDE's strong point so it could hardly be worse now. :(

I agree with you. Why not give the links to the official announcement and the visual guide?.

I agree with you. Why not give the links to the official announcement and the visual guide?.

KDE was adamantly clear that KDE 4.0 was not a 'user' release, but was solely for third party developers to actually get involved and start porting, and to make a difference.

Well, here's the original release announcement for KDE 4.0:

http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/

Now can we please stop with this revisionist history.

KDE was adamantly clear that KDE 4.0 was not a 'user' release, but was solely for third party developers to actually get involved and start porting, and to make a difference.

Wha?!? Please point me to where on the KDE4.0 release http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/ page they made it "adamantly clear that KDE 4.0 was not a user release." They did say:

The KDE Community is thrilled to announce the immediate availability of KDE 4.0. This significant release marks both the end of the long and intensive development cycle leading up to KDE 4.0 and the beginning of the KDE 4 era.

and

The KDE 4 Desktop has gained some major new capabilities.

and

Lots of KDE Applications have seen improvements as well.

and

KDE 4.0 is the innovative Free Software desktop containing lots of applications for every day use as well as for specific purposes.

I wish the KDE fanboys (and the KDE developers themselves) would stop trying to rewrite recent history and just admit there were mistakes made.

I had the same bug.

From my few brief experiences KDE developers _seem_ to have an attitude of "if it affects me I'll fix it" which is fine, they're mostly working for free. But that does kinda make me not bother reporting bugs + if I was reporting all my bugs/crashes I wouldn't have time to read Slashdot.*

The bug in question sounds like the effect I was getting which appears to have been fixed in 4.1.96 (RC1) but was present in 4.1.80.

KDE teams appear to have known about it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166883
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157537
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163870
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178840
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178859 ... etc ...

This was not, as other posters in the thread appear to want to claim, due to that users incompetence. His comments weren't totally unreasonable.

KDE has had major problems with font support on the desktop until recently; incidentally there are currently no settings to alter the size of the date text. The date and time font sizes are set by the height of the panel - clearly this is a sensible and neat feature, but it was broken. I hesitated to say "horribly broken" but the clock is one of the main visible elements in most peoples kicker/panel/application bar and as such is one of those "first impressions" features that are really important to get right if you want your interface to appear professional. Changing the font used by KDE seemed to help before.

For those just looking at the RC it's like the [relatively] massive numbers used in the clocks pop-up calendar widget ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178588 ).

---
* FWIW I focus on a couple of non-KDE projects and do my best to report bugs and provide user support for them.

I had the same bug.

From my few brief experiences KDE developers _seem_ to have an attitude of "if it affects me I'll fix it" which is fine, they're mostly working for free. But that does kinda make me not bother reporting bugs + if I was reporting all my bugs/crashes I wouldn't have time to read Slashdot.*

The bug in question sounds like the effect I was getting which appears to have been fixed in 4.1.96 (RC1) but was present in 4.1.80.

KDE teams appear to have known about it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166883
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157537
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163870
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178840
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178859 ... etc ...

This was not, as other posters in the thread appear to want to claim, due to that users incompetence. His comments weren't totally unreasonable.

KDE has had major problems with font support on the desktop until recently; incidentally there are currently no settings to alter the size of the date text. The date and time font sizes are set by the height of the panel - clearly this is a sensible and neat feature, but it was broken. I hesitated to say "horribly broken" but the clock is one of the main visible elements in most peoples kicker/panel/application bar and as such is one of those "first impressions" features that are really important to get right if you want your interface to appear professional. Changing the font used by KDE seemed to help before.

For those just looking at the RC it's like the [relatively] massive numbers used in the clocks pop-up calendar widget ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178588 ).

---
* FWIW I focus on a couple of non-KDE projects and do my best to report bugs and provide user support for them.

I had the same bug.

From my few brief experiences KDE developers _seem_ to have an attitude of "if it affects me I'll fix it" which is fine, they're mostly working for free. But that does kinda make me not bother reporting bugs + if I was reporting all my bugs/crashes I wouldn't have time to read Slashdot.*

The bug in question sounds like the effect I was getting which appears to have been fixed in 4.1.96 (RC1) but was present in 4.1.80.

KDE teams appear to have known about it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166883
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157537
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163870
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178840
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178859 ... etc ...

This was not, as other posters in the thread appear to want to claim, due to that users incompetence. His comments weren't totally unreasonable.

KDE has had major problems with font support on the desktop until recently; incidentally there are currently no settings to alter the size of the date text. The date and time font sizes are set by the height of the panel - clearly this is a sensible and neat feature, but it was broken. I hesitated to say "horribly broken" but the clock is one of the main visible elements in most peoples kicker/panel/application bar and as such is one of those "first impressions" features that are really important to get right if you want your interface to appear professional. Changing the font used by KDE seemed to help before.

For those just looking at the RC it's like the [relatively] massive numbers used in the clocks pop-up calendar widget ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178588 ).

---
* FWIW I focus on a couple of non-KDE projects and do my best to report bugs and provide user support for them.

I had the same bug.

From my few brief experiences KDE developers _seem_ to have an attitude of "if it affects me I'll fix it" which is fine, they're mostly working for free. But that does kinda make me not bother reporting bugs + if I was reporting all my bugs/crashes I wouldn't have time to read Slashdot.*

The bug in question sounds like the effect I was getting which appears to have been fixed in 4.1.96 (RC1) but was present in 4.1.80.

KDE teams appear to have known about it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166883
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157537
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163870
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178840
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178859 ... etc ...

This was not, as other posters in the thread appear to want to claim, due to that users incompetence. His comments weren't totally unreasonable.

KDE has had major problems with font support on the desktop until recently; incidentally there are currently no settings to alter the size of the date text. The date and time font sizes are set by the height of the panel - clearly this is a sensible and neat feature, but it was broken. I hesitated to say "horribly broken" but the clock is one of the main visible elements in most peoples kicker/panel/application bar and as such is one of those "first impressions" features that are really important to get right if you want your interface to appear professional. Changing the font used by KDE seemed to help before.

For those just looking at the RC it's like the [relatively] massive numbers used in the clocks pop-up calendar widget ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178588 ).

---
* FWIW I focus on a couple of non-KDE projects and do my best to report bugs and provide user support for them.

I had the same bug.

From my few brief experiences KDE developers _seem_ to have an attitude of "if it affects me I'll fix it" which is fine, they're mostly working for free. But that does kinda make me not bother reporting bugs + if I was reporting all my bugs/crashes I wouldn't have time to read Slashdot.*

The bug in question sounds like the effect I was getting which appears to have been fixed in 4.1.96 (RC1) but was present in 4.1.80.

KDE teams appear to have known about it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166883
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157537
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163870
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178840
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178859 ... etc ...

This was not, as other posters in the thread appear to want to claim, due to that users incompetence. His comments weren't totally unreasonable.

KDE has had major problems with font support on the desktop until recently; incidentally there are currently no settings to alter the size of the date text. The date and time font sizes are set by the height of the panel - clearly this is a sensible and neat feature, but it was broken. I hesitated to say "horribly broken" but the clock is one of the main visible elements in most peoples kicker/panel/application bar and as such is one of those "first impressions" features that are really important to get right if you want your interface to appear professional. Changing the font used by KDE seemed to help before.

For those just looking at the RC it's like the [relatively] massive numbers used in the clocks pop-up calendar widget ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178588 ).

---
* FWIW I focus on a couple of non-KDE projects and do my best to report bugs and provide user support for them.

I had the same bug.

From my few brief experiences KDE developers _seem_ to have an attitude of "if it affects me I'll fix it" which is fine, they're mostly working for free. But that does kinda make me not bother reporting bugs + if I was reporting all my bugs/crashes I wouldn't have time to read Slashdot.*

The bug in question sounds like the effect I was getting which appears to have been fixed in 4.1.96 (RC1) but was present in 4.1.80.

KDE teams appear to have known about it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166883
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157537
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163870
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178840
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178859 ... etc ...

This was not, as other posters in the thread appear to want to claim, due to that users incompetence. His comments weren't totally unreasonable.

KDE has had major problems with font support on the desktop until recently; incidentally there are currently no settings to alter the size of the date text. The date and time font sizes are set by the height of the panel - clearly this is a sensible and neat feature, but it was broken. I hesitated to say "horribly broken" but the clock is one of the main visible elements in most peoples kicker/panel/application bar and as such is one of those "first impressions" features that are really important to get right if you want your interface to appear professional. Changing the font used by KDE seemed to help before.

For those just looking at the RC it's like the [relatively] massive numbers used in the clocks pop-up calendar widget ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178588 ).

---
* FWIW I focus on a couple of non-KDE projects and do my best to report bugs and provide user support for them.

I had the same bug.

From my few brief experiences KDE developers _seem_ to have an attitude of "if it affects me I'll fix it" which is fine, they're mostly working for free. But that does kinda make me not bother reporting bugs + if I was reporting all my bugs/crashes I wouldn't have time to read Slashdot.*

The bug in question sounds like the effect I was getting which appears to have been fixed in 4.1.96 (RC1) but was present in 4.1.80.

KDE teams appear to have known about it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166883
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157537
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163870
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178840
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178859 ... etc ...

This was not, as other posters in the thread appear to want to claim, due to that users incompetence. His comments weren't totally unreasonable.

KDE has had major problems with font support on the desktop until recently; incidentally there are currently no settings to alter the size of the date text. The date and time font sizes are set by the height of the panel - clearly this is a sensible and neat feature, but it was broken. I hesitated to say "horribly broken" but the clock is one of the main visible elements in most peoples kicker/panel/application bar and as such is one of those "first impressions" features that are really important to get right if you want your interface to appear professional. Changing the font used by KDE seemed to help before.

For those just looking at the RC it's like the [relatively] massive numbers used in the clocks pop-up calendar widget ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178588 ).

---
* FWIW I focus on a couple of non-KDE projects and do my best to report bugs and provide user support for them.

I can do this all day.

Please do. But not on slashdot. Do it here:
https://bugs.kde.org/wizard.cgi

Sorry for turning /. into a kde trac btw.

So, where is the bugzilla bug so that this information can be added? Seriously, do you think that Aaron Siego trolls slashdot looking for bugs to fix? No, he trolls _bugzilla_ looking for bugs to fix. File it here:
https://bugs.kde.org/wizard.cgi

KDE bundles Konqueror. Gnome has Epiphany. There are on binaries for Windows for either of them.

FYI, Konqueror has been ported to Windows as part of the "KDE on Windows Project".

(Not that I'm arguing Konqueror should be bundled with Windows; I'm merely pointing out that it could be done.)

Unfortunately, that's what they said about Vista, too.

No, what's unfortunate is not that Microsoft feels this way, but that KDE feels this way. Microsoft has a beta product that people are generally happy with (Windows 7). KDE has a released product that many people hate (KDE 4.x). I don't need to say that KDE is open source, and that things were reversed just one year ago, and all the other obvious trolls. I do however want to remind us that KDE doesn't really need users at all. I have been using KDE for years and I've stuck with the 3.x branch while the 4.x branch is developing, but more and more often I feel pushed away. If it is simple usability reports that they are not interested in or other little things that add up in the KDE community. I think that they are really forgetting what is KDE.

I repeat that I am a KDE user, but as KDE 3.x is being made obsolete I am looking for a new place to go. it's a shame because I love Kate, Konqueror, and Kontact especially. KDE 4.2 betas are beautiful and work like they should (Aaron Siego is a genius, what he has done with Plasma). But the developer community is scaring me away.

You're fucking idiots.

Source: http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/862-KDE-Trolls,-eat-this.html

Actually, if you read the actual announcement, it is obvious the 4.0 was put out so people start banging on it:

http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/

and that 4.1 was the first user release:

http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.1/

it even says:

Past, present and future
  While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early adopting users, some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not implemented yet. The KDE team is working on those and strives to make them available in one of the next releases. While there is no guarantee that every single feature from KDE 3.5 will be implemented, KDE 4.1 already provides a powerful and feature-rich working environment.
  Note that some options in the UI have moved to a place in the context of the data they manipulate, so make sure you have a closer look before you report anything missing in action.
  KDE 4.1 is a huge step forward in the KDE4 series and hopefully sets the pace for future development. KDE 4.2 can be expected in January 2009.âoeâ

Actually, if you read the actual announcement, it is obvious the 4.0 was put out so people start banging on it:

http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/

and that 4.1 was the first user release:

http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.1/

it even says:

Past, present and future
  While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early adopting users, some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not implemented yet. The KDE team is working on those and strives to make them available in one of the next releases. While there is no guarantee that every single feature from KDE 3.5 will be implemented, KDE 4.1 already provides a powerful and feature-rich working environment.
  Note that some options in the UI have moved to a place in the context of the data they manipulate, so make sure you have a closer look before you report anything missing in action.
  KDE 4.1 is a huge step forward in the KDE4 series and hopefully sets the pace for future development. KDE 4.2 can be expected in January 2009.âoeâ

I'd say if it takes you two stable releases to implement very basic functionality like working keyboard shortcuts, then you suffer from a lack of manpower.

Don't get me wrong -- "We're always hiring." :)

Keyboard shortcuts have worked the whole time (at least for me). Working global keyboard shortcuts, not so much (at least if we're talking about multimedia keys in my case). Somehow KWin's global shortcuts work so in the end I don't notice but Alt-F2 has worked since KDE 4.0 so maybe I'm just not experiencing some long standing bug which you're hitting. :(

It's also hard to believe you can look at the kde4 release announcement http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/ and not see the problem. What needed to be explained on that page was that KDE4.0 was not ready for everyday use.

"KDE 4.0 is the innovative Free Software desktop containing lots of applications for every day use as well as for specific purposes. Plasma is a new desktop shell developed for KDE 4, providing an intuitive interface to interact with the desktop and applications..."

...doesn't cut it. It was in an alpha stage, yet the release announcement read like it was a final stable release.

Fair enough (although I'd claim beta quality as opposed to alpha -- based on using the desktop the week leading up to tagging).

Well not only is that not true as I already mentioned, but your latter point is also not true. I know it's easy to blame the shift of focus that we employed in KDE 4 on everything, but the fact of the matter is that it actually brought in quite a few developers as well... We have people working on the art, basic desktop and games, areas which were mostly unmaintained in KDE 3. Things like the KDE TechBase I already mentioned were created as part of making it easy to develop for KDE. Again though, if you have something specifically that you have in mind then say so as developer support is a very high priority for KDE.

I'd say if it takes you two stable releases to implement very basic functionality like working keyboard shortcuts, then you suffer from a lack of manpower.

It's also hard to believe you can look at the kde4 release announcement http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/ and not see the problem. What needed to be explained on that page was that KDE4.0 was not ready for everyday use.

"KDE 4.0 is the innovative Free Software desktop containing lots of applications for every day use as well as for specific purposes. Plasma is a new desktop shell developed for KDE 4, providing an intuitive interface to interact with the desktop and applications..."

...doesn't cut it. It was in an alpha stage, yet the release announcement read like it was a final stable release.

Not having a KDE 4 version of Amarok for example is terrible.

Amarok is an extragear program, i.e. one (like K3b, digiKam or Kile) that has its own release schedule. It is not the responsibility of the KDE devs to look after Amarok; there are Amarok devs for that.

That said, you can use the old version of Amarok on the new KDE. You just need the kdelibs from KDE 3.5, which Amarok uses, and when it starts it will go in the KDE4 systray.

And yes, I am using Amarok 1.4.1 on KDE 4.1.4 in this very moment.

Linus is promoting the best option available at the time, without bias. Which is perfectly sane, and valid.

In all fairness, "best" is one of those things that is in the eye of the beholder. When KDE 3.5 was the latest, GNOME was still "the best" for many people.

Basically, KDE has great tech. BUT core developers seem to have some sort of arrogance about listening to the community

Please elaborate, without using mailing list threads where these core developers get flamed endlessly because people don't like something in KDE 4. On the other hand we are always interested in receiving reports of what we could do better (although reasons of "KDE 3.5 did it this way" does not exactly prove the point...)

and some sort of project-deathwish which manifests in a horrible release process,

Horrible?... How so? I ask because the release process is mostly unchanged since KDE 3.5, where apparently it worked well. What do you think has regressed since then?

minor versions that don't work until x.4 or so,

So you're saying that you've had issues for both 4.0 and 4.1 not working until 4.x.4? 4.1 would have been much the same as 4.0.4, with the exception of extra features. I personally did not notice tons of trouble from 4.1 on (although obviously I'm biased ;)

and poor support for non-core developers.

No offense but this is a troll unless you have something in particular that you're talking about. The same mailing lists, API documentation, and support tools are available now as were available for KDE 3.5. In addition we now have a Wiki available instead of the crusty old KDE 2.x material, KDE TechBase, and the number of developers has only been increasing.

For instance, the latest KDE Commit Digest shows commits by 249 developers, up from 231 a year before. If we go back to the last Commit Digest from Derek Kite in October 2005 there were 195 developers. Argue about seasonal effects or whatever all you want but the data doesn't support your argument.

Moreover they've alienated some of the very groups they tried to encourage early in the KDE 4 brainstorming process.

Well there are definitely "alienated groups" but who are you talking about specifically?

Finally, they generally seem to suffer from lack of manpower, which they have never really tried to solve.

Well not only is that not true as I already mentioned, but your latter point is also not true. I know it's easy to blame the shift of focus that we employed in KDE 4 on everything, but the fact of the matter is that it actually brought in quite a few developers as well... We have people working on the art, basic desktop and games, areas which were mostly unmaintained in KDE 3. Things like the KDE TechBase I already mentioned were created as part of making it easy to develop for KDE. Again though, if you have something specifically that you have in mind then say so as developer support is a very high priority for KDE.

If you believed the hype the core devs were spouting, KDE 4 was going well, and no help was needed, until the product actually appeared as a release and everyone saw the real situation.

Here's the announcement about the Development platform release where the library API was declared stable. "With a lot of issues facing KDE hackers before 4.0 is a usable desktop, all work on new features and UI is stopped, and efforts focus on fixing the inevitable, long list of bugs." Where's the hype?

Here's the Plas

Windows 7 source code.

actually, most projects would be happy for such a help. i know for sure kde (http://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/mwg.php) and amarok (http://rokymotion.pwsp.net/wiki/Main_Page) have quite intensive awareness building teams, that include marketing as well.

my suggestion, though ? find a project that you use (preferably with a large enough community - those projects usually are in need for dedicated marketing people), and offer your help there. don't settle for single project, try to find out several of those - it is also possible that your skills are needed for several smaller projects.