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IBM is the biggest patent troll. Ever. Who else do you think get $2 billion a year from patent trolling alone? Why do you think IBM has so many patents? Many of the patents are really silly, obvious and has broad coverage. IBM was always considered the big bad company, until Microsoft took over the crown, but IBM has never ceased to being bad. Have you followed IBMs ugly maneuvours in the Mainframe market? Horrendous stories. Every competitor is sued, or bought. Why is IBM called the "Big Blue"? Because they have so many lawyers in blue suits. More lawyers than engineers at one point in time. What do IBM use all those lawyers for? At IBM, a lawyer is more profitable than an engineer, that is why. It was really dumb by SCO to attack IBM for Linux patent trolling, IBM is the king of patent trolling. Really really stupid by SCO, they should know that no one can extract patent profit from IBM. IBM is the big extractor. IBM needed that Linux case, to polish the bad IBM reputation. Sun Microsystems never cared about patents, until IBM nearly bankrupted Sun. After that, Sun started to patent everything and the engineers had a contest to get the goofiest patent. As told by James Gosling, father of Java: http://nighthacks.com/roller/j... "...In Sun's early history, we didn't think much of patents. While there's a kernel of good sense in the reasoning for patents, the system itself has gotten goofy. Sun didn't file many patents initially. But then we got sued by IBM for violating the "RISC patent" - a patent that essentially said "if you make something simpler, it'll go faster". Seemed like a blindingly obvious notion that shouldn't have been patentable, but we got sued, and lost. The penalty was huge. Nearly put us out of business. We survived, but to help protect us from future suits we went on a patenting binge. Even though we had a basic distaste for patents, the game is what it is, and patents are essential in modern corporations, if only as a defensive measure. There was even an unofficial competition to see who could get the goofiest patent through the system...." Another patent trolling story where IBM attorneys black mail Sun: "Pay us $20 million or we will find some IBM patents you do violate and sue you" http://www.forbes.com/asap/200... "...My own introduction to the realities of the patent system came in the 1980s, when my client, Sun Microsystems--then a small company--was accused by IBM of patent infringement. Threatening a massive lawsuit, IBM demanded a meeting to present its claims. Fourteen IBM lawyers and their assistants, all clad in the requisite dark blue suits, crowded into the largest conference room Sun had. The chief blue suit orchestrated the presentation of the seven patents IBM claimed were infringed, the most prominent of which was IBM's notorious "fat lines" patent: To turn a thin line on a computer screen into a broad line, you go up and down an equal distance from the ends of the thin line and then connect the four points. You probably learned this technique for turning a line into a rectangle in seventh-grade geometry, and, doubtless, you believe it was devised by Euclid or some such 3,000-year-old thinker. Not according to the examiners of the USPTO, who awarded IBM a patent on the process. After IBM's presentation, our turn came. As the Big Blue crew looked on (without a flicker of emotion), my colleagues--all of whom had both engineering and law degrees--took to the whiteboard with markers, methodically illustrating, dissecting, and demolishing IBM's claims. We used phrases like: "You must be kidding," and "You ought to be ashamed." But the IBM team showed no emotion, save outright indifference. Confidently, we proclaimed our conclusion: Only one of the seven IBM patents would be deemed valid by a court, and no rational court would find that Sun's technology infringed even that one. An awkward silence ensued. The blue suits did not even confer among themse

So what if Oracle spent 50 Million on this trial - that's peanuts. But is the bigger cost that Oracle bought Sun specifically for this lawsuit?

As James Gosling once said

Oracle finally filed a patent lawsuit against Google. Not a big surprise. During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being grilled about the patent situation between Sun and Google, we could see the Oracle lawyer's eyes sparkle. Filing patent suits was never in Sun's genetic code. Alas....

(Source)

So, it certainly sounds like that's the main reason Oracle purchased Sun.

Java creator James Gosling stated that Google totally slimed Sun and favors Oracle in the trial. “While I have differences with Oracle, in this case, they are in the right,” he wrote on his blog. “We were all really disturbed, even [former Sun CEO Jonathan Schwartz] just decided to put on a happy face and tried to turn lemons into lemonade, which annoyed a lot of folks at Sun.”

How about we take the word of the man who actually created Java and worked for both Google and Oracle :

"Just because Sun didn't have patent suits in our genetic code doesn't mean we didn't feel wronged. While I have differences with Oracle, in this case they are in the right. Google totally slimed Sun. We were all really disturbed, even Jonathan: he just decided to put on a happy face and tried to turn lemons into lemonade, which annoyed a lot of folks at Sun."

Not a lawyer, not a PR drone, not an out of touch CEO but an honest to god real programmer and someone who has actually achieved something in this industry saying Google's wrong. Oh wait I forgot, Google said that they aren't evil, it must be alright then.

I was expecting involvement from James Gosling somehow...

And this has no merit ?:

"James Gosling, the father of Java who left Sun soon after it was acquired by Oracle, writes on his blog that Oracle was eying the Java patents as part of the Sun acquisition:

Oracle finally filed a patent lawsuit against Google. Not a big surprise. During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being grilled about the patent situation between Sun and Google, we could see the Oracle lawyer’s eyes sparkle. Filing patent suits was never in Sun’s genetic code. Alas.

I hope to avoid getting dragged into the fray: they only picked one of my patents (RE38,104) to sue over."

http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/13/android-oracle-java-lawsuit/
http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_finally_hits_the

Linky

(From here)

It's a sad comment on the morality of large modern software companies that Microsoft, while I don't think they've gotten any better since Sun sued them, probably has the high ground.

James Gosling confirmed this some time ago "During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being grilled about the patent situation between Sun and Google, we could see the Oracle lawyer's eyes sparkle. Filing patent suits was never in Sun's genetic code. Alas.... " http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_finally_hits_the

It simply isn't true that “Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms”. IBM supplies Java for IBM's platforms, HP for HP's, even Azul systems does the JVM for their systems (admittedly, these all start with code from Snorcle - but then, so does Apple). In the beginning, Microsoft provided Java for Windows ... Apple was the same ...

and I explain:

Having Oracle take over the development would be hard for several reasons:

• First, the Java port in use includes a lot of Apple know-how that is not generally available (such as private interfaces) to make Java integrate well rather than using just X11.
• Second, it belongs to Apple, so Oracle would either have to receive a copy of Apple's implementation or start again with all the UI and platform native code.
• Third, distribution would move outside Apple's update mechanism so keeping it patched and secure would be difficult - a new installer and update mechanism will be needed.
• Fourth, the new AppStore rules will make sure there's negligible demand for consumer Java on the Mac.

Your view would make a good Apple PR position but doesn't address the actual complexities of the situation.

at least link to the corresponding blog:
http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/steve_jobs_comments_on_apple

- Software patents are not considered valid in the majority of the world, precisely because they get in the way of perfectly reasonable actions.

This is between two US companies, so what the rest of the world does is irrelevant in this case. And yes, I think software patents are stupid, but if it wasn't for patents, Oracle would use something else to go after them... possibly even copyrights over the interface classes source code, which are essentially the same between every Java implementation, since they are just method signatures.

- Software patents on an "open" standard might not be enforceable if those patents are required to implement that standard, and are the only sensible way to do so. Interoperability with an existing product can't be protected by a patent if that patent is the only (or only sensible) way to do things.

Java isn't an open standard. It has a GPLv3 implementation, but Google didn't use that and thus aren't covered by the GPLv3 protections.

- All the mentioned patents have prior art except one, which is so far worded towards Java only use that it falls foul of the previous statement (I didn't think you *could* patent something that specific to a particular product).

- The Oracle patents are particularly weak, most of them re-iterating 1980's knowledge of programming.

It really matters how the courts interpret it. Some patents that should be thrown out (Amazon one-click business patent) haven't been.

- Google probably has one of the largest patent profiles ever, especially in the area of collating huge amounts of data into a database - this is commercial suicide for Oracle who could well see a retaliatory attack that they just can't afford to defend against (yes, THAT many patents). Google's patents are likely to be MUCH more substantial than these Oracle ones.

Oracle has a lot of pals with deep patent portfolios, including IBM. And given the marketspace we're referring to, you may be able to count Nokia, Apple, and Microsoft too. After all, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

- Sun never had a problem with IP protection. You don't need to protect your IP when "Java" is in everything from mobile phones to servers - basically Sun *WAS* Java and not much else before it was taken over, and saw no need to sue anyone at all substantial over patent infringement when it could have done at any time for even more cash.

- Going for Google first is commercial suicide - there will be other, smaller, players using third-party Java VM's.

Oracle cares about Android, because Android directly cuts into Oracle's JavaME licensing. This is one of Sun's profit centers, and now Android is cutting into that.

Most other, non-open source Java implementations are licensed from Oracle.

On the desktop/server, Oracle doesn't care about the open-source implementations.

- Suing immediately is a sign of desperation. Much more conducive to receiving compensation would have been quiet negotiations (there hasn't been ANY time for that since the Oracle takeover) and/or asking them to work around the patent at least. The path chosen is the most stupid and expensive.

Reading between the lines of what James Gosling said, negotiations had already been going on between Sun and Google before Oracle bought Sun.

The lawyers here are Boies, Schiller & Flexner - the same ones that handled the SCO case's IP side. That went well for them. *fall into fits of derisive laughter*.

You mean the company that successfully sucked millions out of a sinking ship before it sank? And you think they're stupid?

Whether Oracle actually has a case with these patents is debatable, but Oracle no doubt has other ammunition against Google should these fail.

I wonder if this could be as big and as interesting(for the geek community) a fight as SCO v Novell

There's an interesting comment on James Gosling's blog http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_finally_hits_the

"Not a big surprise. During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being grilled about the patent situation between Sun and Google, we could see the Oracle lawyer's eyes sparkle"

And yet more money get syphoned out of the IT industry into the lawyers pockets. Sigh

This from the blog of Gosling, the man himself:

http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/so_long_old_friend1

If you browse his blog entries, you see the noose was tightening, as was expected. SUN and Oracle may both be in the Valley, but their cultures were radically different.

Another good guys sank...