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Gosling Reacts To Apple's Java Deprecation
Kurofuneparry writes "Apple has announced that Java is deprecated as of the most recent update to OS X. This shot across the bow is getting some responses. To Jobs' claim that 'Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms,' James Gosling is quoted as saying that 'simply isn't true.' Much talk of a coming turf war is to be had. This certainly can't be unrelated to statements from Jobs recently covered on this website and is sure to make waves. Apple has enjoyed significant success recently accompanied by a widespread sense that they can do no wrong in business or design. However, is deprecating Java a mistake? It doesn't take much insight to connect the dots and see that Apple has starting marking friends and enemies relative to the increasingly heated fight for mobile and other platforms."
Overly-dramatic summary aside, isn't this just because the cost for Apple to support Java on OS X is greater than the benefit it provides?
What are the side effects of having a computer that does not decode Java?
Nothing at all?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
But people won't get tired of pointing out how superior it is compared to C++.
at least link to the corresponding blog:
http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/steve_jobs_comments_on_apple
If you'll excuse me I'm going to go imagine the sh*t-storm that would happen if windows pulled a stunt like this....
Or maybe Jobs cut a deal with Oracle for them to port to OS X. Though IMO, with Oracle in charge, Java's days may be numbered anyway.
This would be a non-issue if the new Mac Appstore could distribute low-level software, libraries, third party software and frameworks just like linux distributions. In particular, if Apple isn't interested in Java anymore, but someone else would maintain it, everybody would be fine.
The mistake isn't necessarily deprecating Java, if that is the way forward then that is the way forward. The big mistake is deprecating it without ANY concrete plans on a way forward. Corporate types hate uncertainty and Apple fails to realize this it seems. I mean we don't even know if Oracle will provide a JVM for mac, and if they do what will become of the Apple-specific technologies(such as launching with the Java application stub, using Cocoa instead of X, the Apple specific Java extensions etc.)
Where I work we use a lot of Apple Java and now we have absolutely 0 idea on whether we should invest any more in Apple at all. Buying new hardware and transitioning to a new platform is expensive, but at least the other major platforms(Windows and Linux) do at least provide some certainty as to the future of those products and the platforms they will support.
Basically Steve is treating major software platform updates the same we he treats iMac hardware updates, and that just doesn't sit well with a lot of people.
Monstar L
It seems to have become trendy again to hate Apple no matter what, but this is getting ridiculous. Why is it that Apple is expected to be the only platform vendor that has to maintain their own version of the JVM for free? Jobs is quite correct in saying that Java under OS X has long lagged behind the latest official Sun release. I wish it was more common for Apple to leave more components to third parties now that they've got more market share. Another example would be graphics drivers, which lag tremendously in both performance and features. I don't understand why on Earth any Java dev would want to be stuck indefinitely with Apple's outdated implementation that by definition would never be a major priority rather then get a version from the main organization behind it. For that matter I blame Sun's longstanding ambivalence toasted FOSS. If we had a fully open GPL edition of the JVM that was best of class like we should have gotten years ago, this never would have been an issue in the first place. It's yet another tech Sun's BS has screwed us on, with their insistance to out ZFS under the CDDL rather then Apache/BSD/LGPL being another major example. Anyone still have that old sun strategy wheel, from before 'acquisition' became their final exit?
Ordinarily, their would be praise in the streets for Apple "deprecating" Java. They've done a consistently late and shitty job of keeping their port up to date, with only the benefit of having it be part of "system update" to show for it.
Given that their marketshare has grown, and Sun/Oracle does a decent and/or better than Apple did job of keeping it updated for other supported platforms, it seems likely that support will actually improve.
However, in the case of Apple, it isn't hard (or, typically, incorrect) to view anything that they do as being in service of their single-vendor-golden-cage control freak ideology. On the mobile, it is cryptographically enforced. On the desktop, the intent seems fairly clear to start with the soft sell "The Apple Store isn't the only way, just the best one" saith Jobs, and abrupt terminations of distribution of 3rd party technology are likely part of that.
Server/corporate users of OSX, rare but not nonexistent beasts, should be celebrating right now, since they'll now have actual Java, not Apple half-assery; but it is also likely the case that this is an attempt to make java an even more obscure and peripheral aspect of the OSX experience in general(in the same way that x11 is available; but is considered about as "un-Apple" as firing up Parallels, and probably less common).
"Apple has enjoyed significant success recently accompanied by a widespread sense that they can do no wrong in
business or design."
Don't forget the "Just blame Steve for all the issues" that the media uses.
Having flash and java coming directly from the developers its what I'm use to and seems to be the best solution in order to get always the latest securest version.
Get my e-mail after a captcha test in: http://tinymailt
They use Java exclusively for their management interface..
Oh that's right.. no one uses OSX in the server world anyway.
There seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread so let me make this as clear as I can - Apple isn't blocking Sun/Oracle's ability to ship Java for the OS X platform, what they're doing is dropping internal maintenance for the platform from within Apple themselves. Up until now Apple has been porting Java to the OS X platform, and they're now discontinuing that and consequently removing it from their update system.
If someone else, including Sun/Oracle want to start maintaining a Java for OS X release they absolutely can - it just won't be available via OS X's automatic update scheme any longer (and won't be something Apple is paying for).
It seems to me that this week has shown a clear step forward for Apple and the Mac OS. In the very near future Lion will no longer be a computer OS but an Apple Platform. The difference being the user will not be able to just have their way with the interface, the usage or what goes on the device. I've watched the evolution of my desktop and have to say the more "stable" it becomes the more it is owned by Apple and I'm just there to rent it. OS 9 was the last time we had an easy OS to tweak and customize. It was the last time Apple allowed you to just put anything on the machine and give it a go. While I do think there's a bit of an overly paranoid reaction from many of the Mac haters; I do think the AppStore is the death of the home user control. Eventually we will not be able to put anything on our computer without Apple's approval. This gives Apple a clear appeal to the media industry across the board: "Our system cannot run pirated media!" And it gives them the ability to shape the market to whatever they see profitable. Not running Java may be justified by various reasons, but at it's core, I suspect this is them just weeding the OS from any intruders so they can begin a process of lockdown. While simplicity may have it's elegance, for those of us who want a machine tailored specifically to them we may be looking elsewhere.
I agree. I wish Oracle should stop "Ajaxing" my browser.
Say good buy to hope of any java app in the new mac os app store And maybe even in web browsers in the app store.
unless oracle steps up and do provide java for future osX systems, it will be apple that is lossing out. An operating system without java will be unable to provide homebanking for a lot of users, hard to imagine consumers giving up on that. Having to use a virtual machine just to run an operating system, which has java support, will be a hard sell, especial with the "just works" motto of osx.
That's nice, but Apple is deprecating their port of *Java* and the *Java Virtual Machine*. Has nothing to do with the (unfortunately named) Javascript, which they are NOT deprecating.
Overdramatic much?
Javascript have nothing to do with Java. Java and javascript are 2 different languages. This article is about Java, not Javascript. Anyway blaming Javascript for evercookie is like blaming C or C++ for the millions of viruses written in those languages.
The ball is now in Oracle's court. It's their responsibility to provide a JVM for Mac, just like they have the responsibility of providing it for Windows, Linux and Solaris. Instead of people blaming Apple for slowly bowing out of their 2000 commitment, it's time to step up the pressure on Oracle to treat OS X like they do their other platforms.
And, yeah, I know that AIX and HPUX are exceptions, but OS X is a much larger platform that Oracle can't afford to ignore if they want to follow through on their JavaFX 2.0 commitment.
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This is not a big deal really.
Software developers aren't really all that important to Apple market share anymore as they have been moving toward becoming more of a source for trendy tech gadgets rather than a major force in computer driven software for some time now. They intend to phase out of computers completely as there is more money to be made with iPhones, toy tablets and other trendy gizmos. They see no future in the business world of databases, web-development and science-based applications, but rather in the end-user market phone, games and entertainment space. Apple intends not to compete with Microsoft or Linux. With OS X, their primary targets are increasingly Sony, Nitendo, Nokia, Samsung and the like.
Lets face it modern American youth are really no longer receiving the kind of educations that they would need to remain current in the computer-tech world. Jobs is just adapting to market realities and the fact he has a captive market of folks who recognize that they can't really be "cool" unless they buy Apple products.
Basically, Sun never supported Java on the Mac, Apple did. Apple provided the developers, the tools, apple did all the work, and then paid Sun for the privilege. (it costs money to make sure your JVM was approved).
With oracle now suing every other Java implementation out there that wasn't approved Apple probably thought it just wasn't worth it. Expensive to do, costs money to do it, and unless your sending money up to oracle yearly, now a patent nightmare mess.
Look at it this way a side effect might be that Oracle stops suing non oracle approved JVM's, including Davik. The Bad press might be more than they realize.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
They came first for Flash,
and I didn't post because I wasn't into broadcasting a webcam.
Then they came for the Java,
and I didn't blog because I wasn't a programmer.
Then they came for OS X,
and I didn't tweet because I wasn't a Mac Pro owner.
Then they came for the keyboard.
and by that time no one was left to bleet.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Breaking news. All programming language and developer tools deprecated on OS X.
Don't want the unwashed hipsters/masses writing their OWN "APPS".
It's too bad; Macs really caught on at my workplace since OS-X was released. Our software targets Windows and Linux, but since we're mainly a java shop developers can run Macs on their desktops if they like, and since OS-X. almost half of them have chosen to do so; they all have 8-core power macs with 8 gigs of RAM etc. If java doesn't keep up on the Mac, OS-X won't be a viable option for us any more.
Except Davik is not a JVM. You can't download java *.class file and run it on Davik.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
I will determine if a app is purchase worthy based on its function not on someones conjecture that it is a "Good Buy".
Hardly. This is a move to crush anyone that wants to use Java to build a cross platform "app" that would work on Blackberrys, windows, linux, iphones, osx, etc. Apple was officially licenced to produce their own JVM. To say they were worried about a lawsuit is horribly naive. Apple is an evil, exclusive company that has forever been secretly trying to go 1984 all over the personal computing industry. Once again their true colors are showing.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I develop Java on Windows quite well thank you. Yes there was a dust up, when MIcrosoft tied to grab a hold of the language through proprietary VM, but they lost that suit and Windows remains a great platform for Java development and likely to stay that way, otherwise many customers like me will simply migrate to Ubuntu or another system capable of running Java, which would further erode Windows market share, particularly in the business applications market.
Thats why Apple wants to kill Java. They don't believe in end-users having that kind of choice. For them software and computer gadgets are all about closed and captive, rather than open markets. Just check out the dearth of really useful, but incredibly expensive stuff in the iPhone apps market that only do things that are Apple-approved. For many end users thats fine as they just want a cool app or gadget that works. They have no real technical understanding beyond pressing "buttons". They do other things with their lives.
Apple has become the trendy tech for the non-technical. Apple sees their market there rather than in general purpose computer manufacturing. Its a good move for Jobs. In his lifetime, things are likely to pretty much stay that way. For people who expand the boundaries of what you can do with computing technology Apple is becoming a closed, shrinking market, except for those developing games and trendy gizmo, entertainment software. For them in the long run Apple is increasingly becoming a dead market for significant technical innovation. For folks who are primarily interested in web-centric technical computing, Apple is really longer "cool" and really has no future, which is not the same thing as saying they won't have a sizable market or profits for some time to come. Look at Sony and Nintendo, they are still making money, but no one would claim they serve as development platforms for innovate software other than games and video entertainment.
Apple already lagged behind Java releases, especially large ones like going from Java 5 -> 6. If Oracle picks up the slack and develops an OSX JVM Java on the Mac could end up being in a better situation.
I do agree that if Java is left to whither on the Mac it's going to hurt Apple in some way, although it's still hard to quantify how much.
Nobody will be saying "good buy", they will be saying "goodbye". No bad thing considering Java sucks even more than ObjC.
Really, this is just Apple saying "fuck off with your greasy Android apps". A pre-emptive strike against the low quality code and design that exists "over there".
Don't you anticipate that Oracle will start shipping java for OS X? I mean, really.
The reasoning SJ gave for dropping it though was precicely that it wasn't keeping up – if apple maintain it, it's constantly one version behind as they get the new source and patch it into their JVM... If oracle do it, it stays nice and up to date all the time.
You an run the core product, but only a few of the modules that really provide the power to the OO platform, like highly integrated database-document interaction. But the vast majority of Apple users generally don't have those kinds of technical skills anyway.
Open office is a basically a business application designed to serve as an open alternative to the basic Microsoft suite of business products. Apple sees its future in the trendy gadget, cool phones and vido-games markets, not in general technical/business computing. As a percentage of their sales, developers are just a tiny fraction of their user-base, so why go through the extra expense of catering to them, when you can develop a closed-shop end-user general consumer market instead?
That's it!
Make a service called Bleeter! "The Voice of the Sheep!" You can get modded if other Sheep like your Bleet!
Maybe we can get Yasmine Bleeth to advertise for it.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I was going to use a server farm of Macs to run the middleware for my enterprise business application. Guess I'll need another solution ...
...some time after they got sued by Sun for trying to "embrace and extend" it by adding incompatible extensions.
But then:
I know that's technically only one reason but it is so important that I thought that I'd mention it three times. If Oracle or IBM doesn't pick up Java support for Mac then you get to vote with your feet and switch to Windows or Linux. It'll even run on your Mac hardware. Not so easy if you're pissed off with MS and work in a sector dominated by Windows, MS Office or Internet Exporer.
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Apparently you can translate them though and they'll "run".
They didn't make their own JVM, it's HotSpot.
they all have 8-core power macs with 8 gigs of RAM etc. If java doesn't keep up on the Mac, OS-X won't be a viable option for us any more.
But those are only the minimum system requirements to run java!
Blog + Tweet = Bleet
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I Would never have bought the machine if it did not run Java. Apple please hand over any propriety code (As James G is claiming) to the Open JDK group. My machine is due for an upgrade in the next six months. If Apple does not, then I will simply not buy a Mac laptop. I can use Windows 7 or Ubuntu like we currently do at our office. Java for my developers and end clients is much more important than Mac machines. There are many applications that use Java (Think most trading platforms and thousands of business applications developed in house) that have no alternatives and will never be ported to Mac OS/X.
We have over 20 Apple devices at home (Macs, iPads, iPods, iPhones). Mr Jobs, please stop acting arrogant and evil. We love your products and intend to use them for a long time. Actions such as this will make us think twice about buying Apple products in the near future. There are many credible alternatives these days.
I know of one significant difference between the jvm: I made a scheme interpreter in java for a BSc project and when my interpreter ran on a mac I could evaluate 10000!, it would take a long time but I would finally have a result but on a pc or linux or even a SUN server it crashed around 4000! with a stack overflow. This difference was caused by the JVM, the one on from apple would optimized tail call recursive JITed methods into loop. The one from SUN would not....
Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
You can translate anything to run on any computer. It's called the Turing Tarpit.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Apple has made PLENTY of bad design decisions. Plenty of lists: here, here, etc.
-- Barbie
They came first for Flash,
and I didn't post because I wasn't into broadcasting a webcam.
Then they came for the Java,
and I didn't blog because I wasn't a programmer.
Then they came for OS X,
and I didn't tweet because I wasn't a Mac Pro owner.
Then they came for the keyboard.
and by that time no one was left to bleet.
Then I bought a PC, installed Linux and was happy.
- Raynet --> .
Oracle is targeting the business and general-purpose computer markets, whereas Apple is targeting the cool tech gadget, entertainment, tunes and games markets. This will simply reinforce the realization that you really can't use a Mac for business and scientific-technical computing for in the long run, what you do is only OK if its approved for sale in the Apple store. Apple's OS is more along the lines of the Sony and Nintendo approach of developing for captured markets.
Although you are right in the short term, the onus will really be on Apple to develop its own developer tools if it wants to compete at all in the business/scientific technology space. My guess is that they don't as they are making quite a bit of money selling "cool" tech to the non-tech, users who wouldn't know how to use an OS even if it were fully open. Apple will have to decide to either maintain their own JVM or leave their JVM in legacy mode and watch developers, scientists, and engineers move to non-Apple development platforms. This is the dilemma people who use a proprietary OS face in every app they build. For those who just use apps they buy this is fine. Those whose businesses must interact with java on the server side must look beyond Apple to stay competitive.
In reading a comment by a computational biologist, who evidently develops on an Apple platform, he thought the Apple announcement represents trouble. He should have more carefully investigated Linux to begin with since science can not utilize a close-platform because of its primary need of allowing other scientists to see precisely how results were achieved, which requires a sufficiently open platform. Fortunately, for him, Java on Linux is getting so good that he will hardly miss OS X, at least for his application development needs.
Apple is rapidly becoming a dead platform for applications development anyway, unless you are developing for the captive end-user markets they serve, which is fine as they are quite large and popular for those primarily directed toward entertainment, end-user experiences rather than general purpose computing or web-development, where increasingly switches and routers are being configured using java rather than C as they are much easier to develop and maintain for interfacing multiple platform environments.
While I don't care for the direction OS X appears to be headed, your statement is just fear mongering ( or you really don't get it).
All of my banking website depend heavily on JavaScript, but not a single one uses java.
In fact, I have a bank app on my iPhone, and I promise that uses no java...
8-core with 8 gigs of RAM? Maybe that's why they can afford to run a JVM... us mortals with $5k machines can't
It's amazing how much of the geek community is completely at a loss for why Apple is so successful. Somehow it's impossible that the user experience they provide is what people want so it must be their marketing.
Apple and various others these days seem to be teaming up with Microsoft to attack their common 'threats'. So you see Facebook and MS going after Google, Oracle going after Android (to the benefit of Apple, and incidently MS), Apple ditching Flash (to the benefit of MS and Silverlight). And now Apple ditching Java. Who benefits from that? Well, anybody that's threatened by truly cross-platform stuff.
Here's where my paranoia kicks in. I think Apple only hates cross-platform stuff when one of those platforms is Linux. For all the talk about Microsoft being afraid of Linux, Apple actually has more to fear. Microsoft's various lock-ins are pretty secure, but Apple doesn't really have any lock-in beyond customer loyalty. If you're not locked in to Windows, then you're more or less equally able to use OS/X or Linux. That's why Linux's market share is pretty much comparable to Apple's. What's good for Linux is ultimately good for Apple, in that it helps break down Windows lock-in. But Jobs may be either short-sighted or cocky enough to ignore that. He's learned to 'succeed' in Microsoft's shadow, and maybe he's grown comfortable there.
Meanwhile, Apple has deals with Microsoft to produce versions of most of MS's stuff for the Mac, including Office and .NET. And .NET and Silverlight is where MS wants to go for its next generation of lock-in. Apple, in ditching Java and Flash, is making Silverlight seem more cross-platform than either of the others, since Linux success aside, Windows and Mac are the 'only' desktop OS's the general public is aware of (it was lots of fun seeing KDE as the standard desktop in 'The Social Network', though). So is Apple doing Microsoft's bidding, or are they just fighting for their survival. No matter, whichever way, Microsoft comes out the winner. Oracle had better pay attention to this stuff and produce a first-class OS/X Java port themselves (and lay off of Android while they're at it). Otherwise, they're unwittingly helping a little software company with its own sights on Oracle's core database business...
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
They came first for Flash,
and I didn't post because I wasn't into broadcasting a webcam.
Then they came for the Java,
and I didn't blog because I wasn't a programmer.
Then they came for OS X,
and I didn't tweet because I wasn't a Mac Pro owner.
Then governments made Apple way the only approved way to own a computer.
and I was pwned.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Although it was a while ago (~1993) I had dinner with both Steve and Larry at Larry's house in Ateherton. At that time they were on very good terms with each other and I see no reason for that to have changed since then. Between Larry and Steve there was no indication of the animosity that exists between Larry and Bill.
"With oracle now suing every other Java implementation out there", oh please, Oracle is suing one company over Java, and it isn't even clear Google has implemented a Java. You cannot patent a language, it is an abstract idea. They did a clean room implementation, so Oracle can take their (bought) implementation and stick it where the Sun don't shine.
The mistake isn't necessarily deprecating Java, if that is the way forward then that is the way forward. The big mistake is deprecating it without ANY concrete plans on a way forward. Corporate types hate uncertainty and Apple fails to realize this it seems.
Apple cares a lot less about corporate types than they do about "regular" people. The latter is their target market. 60% of their revenue comes from iPhone, iPad, and iPod, and "enterprises" are only a small part of that volume.
If business don't buy Apple gear en masse Jobs doesn't care too much (extra purchases are nice of course). He's stated on more than one occasion that that is not their focus.
I bet you could get a patent on a combination of a blog post and a one-line status. I bet it would work too. A tweet that you can click on and turn into a full blog post. Surely it's no different from clicking on the summary of an RSS feed, but the patent office won't know that.
Hmmmm.... installing Linux on my shiny new MacBook Pro that work gave is starting to become more and more attractive.
I agree with a lot of others on this. My group (at a fortune 500 company) has recently started allowing engineers to use Macs and many have chosen to do so. Many other groups in our company have been opting for macs as well.
It's disappointing to see Apple hyper focus on shiny gizmos. One risk they are taking is that the cloud computing revolution hasn't fully panned out yet. If they have all of their eggs in one basket with the mobile devices and some killer apps in the cloud come out that eat into that market share somehow, then they'll be screwed.
However, a more likely scenario is that Apple has been enjoying a lead in the gizmo arena because they've been the first to do it "right" from the consumer's point of view. Unless they can keep innovating to keep ahead of the market catching up with them so that they are viewed is "The" device, they risk losing their market share to the ubiquity of other high-quality devices. Which is why they are so adamant about things like exclusivity and closed platforms.
Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
If Oracle picks up the slack and develops an OSX JVM Java on the Mac
My guess is anything running in a JVM on OSX will be blocked from the OSX App Store.
PS) Captcha = "prophesy"... pretty fucking sure there's no such word.
Except Davik is not a JVM. You can't download java *.class file and run it on Davik.
Isn't it "Dalvik"?
Apple has maintained Java on Mac for the last 15 years. I don't know if that's because Sun didn't do it or because Apple did it anyways. Chicken and egg problem. Now Apple isn't removing Java, merely no longer providing new JVMs and updates. You can look at the move by Apple in two ways:
These two reasons are not mutually exclusive. For the most part, the existing JVM and updates will work for a while. The basic functionality of Java is there but there may be obscure bugs that need to be addressed. I would guess that this is okay for 98% of people who use Java on Macs.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Its not really about root privileges but rather what API's you can hook to in for applications development (expect for those coders who are so good, they do all their net apps in assembly language). Who cares what you keep in your root directory for what apps you give root privileges, most markets are focused on who can control how entire systems interface with other systems and software developed on those systems.
With cloud computing and open service oriented software technologies web-mediated applications become more and more predominant on the bigger iron and multi-sever environments, primarily because of maintenance and development costs associated with supporting multi-platform systems and where Java thread execution and remote method invocation become increasingly more important, what goes on with entertainment, the latest tech gizmos, and cool iPhone apps is of limited concern to all but end-users.
Apple is simply announcing in a subtle way that it is no longer really targeting the general, all-purpose computer market, but has decided on carving out a highly profitable niche market, as the Nieman Marcus or Sharp of the CPU-based tech world, much like Sony wanted to do but not as successfully as Apple. That is the vision of the Apple store. See a cool application you like at your store buy it and you pay for it. Since their market is for non-developers they don't care if it is closed source at the level of the OS.
Apple has pretty well given up on the business applications side of computing, except in the productivity suites for end-user area. It has no sever technologies and is rapidly diminishing as a significant software development platform for general-purpose computing. This is just a subtle way of making the announcement without making their end-user customer base nervous. Yes, this will largely drive developers of scientific-software and other technical users from the Apple platform, but they are such a small fraction of their market share and expensive to cater to, so Apple really doesn't see it will loose much.
Save this post. It is the first legitimate use of over 9000!
anon
Does Oracle maintain Quicktime for Solaris? Should Apple be responsible for Silverlight on OSX? Then what's the big hang up with either Oracle or OpenJDK folks taking up Java on Mac. Now that it's Intel, the only port-specific part is UI and Open Source communities have potted UI toolkits to Mac before - see GTK+ and Qt.
If its not Apple approved, don't look at the Apple store for your product as you won't find it. For those, you will need to turn to the general purpose computing market rather than the increasingly closed Apple platform.
The real question is why your code was computing factorials recursively
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prophesy
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
Merriam-Webster lists it... prophesy
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
You could evaluate it using the Windows or Linux VM, but you'd have to use -Xss.
Sun sued Microsoft remember? Java is a powerful technology that evidently wants to be owned and profited from. Oracle does need to be careful of how it handles the Google suit however as it has the potential to fork Java, which for them would defeat the purpnose of buying Java in the first place. Remember, just before it died, Sun open-sourced much of Java, so a fork remains a very distinct possibility if Oracle does a heavy handed job of screwing rather than supporting the Java community process.
We shall see how this all plays out, particularly now that many foreign governments have moved to open-Linux based systems and software for their development needs. If Oracle, mucks it up too badly, they just might have government funded competition to contend with going forward with Java, most notable China, Brazil and some countries in the Eurozone. Analogous to the situation the US faces in being dependent on foreign oil, many countries find themselves overly dependent on US-based technology. As with everything in life, there are advantages and disadvantages of doing anything in any particular way.
I wish you could be modded above five.
Did you ever release your scheme compiler?
You are delusional if you believe Apple's ditching Flash is a sign of its supporting Silverlight.
blog
This just in: Oracle buys Apple's Java Implementation to continue support
Here's where my paranoia kicks in. I think Apple only hates cross-platform stuff when one of those platforms is Linux.
That's nonsense. I'd say the opposite is true, if anything.
If I can think of one thing which Apple has benefited from Linux, it's the early adopting geeks. Many, many Linux types were early iPod adopters. Many more were early OSX adopters, and still many more have stayed that route. Roughly 1/2 to 1/3 of the "Linux" or "BSD" guys I know area also Apple snobs now.
Now, I can see an argument for disliking Linux on the basis of Apple's BSD-based kernel. Linux has taken some interest away from the BSDs, to be sure. As a result, their kernels don't scale as well, have quite poor context switching, and a myriad of other faults - faults with Apple has inherited, to a large degree. If Apple were able to stomp out Linux a bit, BSD might gain more traction... in which case they'd get more attention to their aged kernel. This would only be a good thing for them - though, of course, it's conspiracy and has no supporting facts or suggestions. :)
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
You mean like phonegap(http://www.phonegap.com/) or jqtouch(http://jqtouch.com/)? Both of which are approved for use in the applications in the App Store?
Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
Java recently eclipsed Flash, http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/10/microsoft-sees-unprecedented-wave-of-java-malware-exploits.ars. If I were an OS vendor, I would consider eliminating these unmanageable platforms that do more to commoditize the platform than add value to my product. Let'em move to Linux. This isn't the second millennium anymore.
I think Apple want's to level the playing field when developing for the mac and using the Mac App store. They wan't everyone to program in c (and direct derivatives). The fact that the jvm isn't bound to one programming language is, I think, one of the reasons. When you see that a dev team can develop faster with a language like Scala than for example ObjC, you can see what kind of advantages that might have.
Mac App Store is part of the Cocoa platform. Why you would expect apps from other platforms to be supported is beyond me. Apt-get does not install Cocoa apps. HTML5 app caching does not install Cocoa apps. If you want a Java app store ask Oracle.
Do you know what Scheme is?
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
With current and emerging standards (e.g. html5), do we still need to encourage the creation or maintaining of web sites/applications that use plugins? Isn't Apple here just subtly (contrary to their stance with iOS) discouraging or dispromoting the use of 3rd party, proprietary plug-ins like Flash and Java?
I see Java as the new Cobol.
Similar story here. Nothing dramatic at this point but OS X will bot be a consideration when the technology refresh comes around. BTW, Sun boxes neither.
Really now, stop it with the FUD. Just one of those CPUs costs 568.58 - $683.66 CAD so you are looking at 1100-1300 for the CPUs alone then add the price of 8GB of ram, a 1TB SATA drive, Two Radeon HD 5770, a super drive, two 27" LED backlit display, a USB keyboard and mouse. That will add up to a lot of moola.
Sure, you could buy cheaper monitors, a pair of Core2Duos CPUs, cheaper ram, cheaper HDs, cheaper CD-ROM drive but then you would be comparing Apples to a piece of crap.
I have to ask you, why did not include a second ATI card when one could drive both displays and why would you need Apple Cinema displays for a "Workstation"? You artificially inflated the price. You could use a cheaper brand of monitor and only one ATI card.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
"With oracle now suing every other Java implementation out there", oh please, Oracle is suing one company over Java, and it isn't even clear Google has implemented a Java. You cannot patent a language, it is an abstract idea. They did a clean room implementation, so Oracle can take their (bought) implementation and stick it where the Sun don't shine.
Sure they can but they cannot call it "JAVA" which is the problem. Google refers to Java all over the place in their documentation.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
The fact that Macs now have a lot more market share is one reason Apple are doing this now. Oracle cannot ignore or neglect the Mac market any more.
A lot of comments here seem to agree or disagree with things they think Gosling said, because they only read the Slashdot summary or the article from The Register that quoted from Gosling's blog, rather than both to click through and read what he has to say: in particular he does not say whether Oracle will supply Java for Mac. The implication seems to be its not a big deal for them to do so in principal, as it was being discussed anyway, but there are serious problems such as Apple's secret APIs.
The Register article also quotes Simon Phipps who is lot more negative about it and points out some other potential problem.
More likely that Mac's Java had a different default -Xmx setting than the other platforms. Apple struggles to keep Java up to date, they don't really have the time or resources to implement advanced JIT features like tail recursion.
I think you've nailed it (both overly dramatic and mostly about costs/benefits.)
The 'outrage' in the media surprises me. Maybe I'm confused, but I don't believe that Microsoft includes java on any of their platforms. Why isn't the media wound up about that?
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
When you boil it down, for most people it's just jealousy. I hate to sound like a smug asshole, but I'm at a loss for what else it is.
When Microsoft does something like a typical douche or even something geeks just don't like you get a very simple "M$ sucks" thread. When Apple does something geeks don't like... the reaction is very different. There's this weird mixture of entitlement, hurt and, "But Apple, I weewy, weewy wuv Macs! How can you do this to me!?" (Oh, and there's the crowd that's always hated Apple and Macs, but every platform has haters.)
Apple makes cool shit and geeks want it but often their business model is anti-geek. (Which, makes sense since targeting geeks is never going to pad your bank account with $50,000,000,000.00 in cash reserves.)
Until there comes a day that I have no other choices in platforms, I'm not gonna freak out about what Apple does. Frankly, I don't much care what MS does anymore because there are viable choices. My only real remaining hatred for MS is Internet Explorer, a product that sucks on virtually every level and has held back web development for at least 7 years.
I even recall one bug report we tried to submit about this and one developer said he couldn't reproduce the problem on his quad-CPU 4GB RAM machine with 4 striped RAID array disks... think about the sort of hardware the average user would have had four years ago. Is it any wonder the desktop sucked so much?
( http://apcmag.com/interview_with_con_kolivas_part_1_computing_is_boring.htm )
It's you!
One that hath name thou can not otter
http://lejos.sourceforge.net/rcx-faq.php
It's obvious you're "joking", but Java doesn't have any intrinsic high system requirements at all.
If you guys are doing Desktop Apps in Java then just start using any the various X-Plat compilers that will make your apps look so much better and more then likely much faster.
The X-Plat libs have advanced so far that Java on the Desktop is really beginning to be questioned. It has become simply a compiler switch that builds the appropriate binary for the appropriate platform and the FULL support of native UI components simply cannot be compared to the rather awkward support that Java UI interfaces have.
I predict Java on the back end will be fine in whatever form it takes after things shake out, but the front end will not be gaining any more ground.
My 0.02 cents.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
If they want to crush cross-platform development, then why aren't they moving to crush C or C++? Since C++ apps will run on just about every desktop and mobile platform out there (besides Blackberry).
Perhaps he didn't know the whole history and realize that "scheme interpreter for a BSc project" meant "a naive scheme interpreter that probably lacked continuation support".
There is no reason that a Scheme interpreter would use host language recursion for recursion in the Scheme program. Any student setting out to implement Scheme in the time frame when Java was available should have encountered "tail recursion" and "call/cc" in their background reading and reinvented or learned one of the obvious idioms to implement Scheme semantics via iteration and a heap-based continuation store.
I know this for a fact, because I found out about all of those things on my own when I encountered Lisp and Scheme for the first time in college, before Java was even rumored to exist. And that was just my own interest to read about it on the web of the time (USENET, gopher, FTP, my local bookstore), when my course work was just to use the languages, not to implement them.
The original problem was that you implemented factorial recursively.
It'll be nice if it plays out like he hopes... then again, we're talking Steve Jobs vs. Larry Ellison here, so anything could happen. The only thing that won't happen is either side admitting defeat and sucking it up to smooth things out for users of a free product.
I think Apple want's to level the playing field when developing for the mac and using the Mac App store.
They wan't everyone to program in c (and direct derivatives). The fact that the jvm isn't bound to one programming language is, I think, one of the reasons.
When you see that a dev team can develop faster with a language like Scala than for example ObjC, you can see what kind of advantages that might have.
Good sir, I beseech of thee to consider the purchase of either a cup of coffee or perhaps a book on punctuation. If I may paraphrase a certain Mr. Kurtz, "The apostrophes, the apostrophes."
I'd consider a JVM superior if it reached through the screen and slapped the programmer who wrote a 10000 levels deep recursion, tail or not.
Java as a language is fine, however its implementation as a virtual machine is terrible. And now that Java is in the hands of the most unethical software company in the world (facing fraud charges for defrauding the US government, for example) it is time for Java to die. Java is an unstable and slow virtual machine, with an infinite number of classpath conflicts, so much so that many Java apps ship with a custom java implementation. Goodbye, Java -- you will not be missed -- except by those who hustled you for overpriced virtual machines and consultants all these years.
and then paid Sun for the privilege. (it costs money to make sure your JVM was approved).
Sounds like Sun App-Stored Apple.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Annoyingly, we just had to write an applet so we could get the signed-applet privileges to do stuff with the client machine filesystem that are still not possible from any of the currently deployed browser standards.
We have a simple enterprise web application that needs to do things like "gather and upload a bunch of files" from a web GUI operated by non-tech people, and the browser platform is still too anemic to do this. We would have been content to use HTML form elements, but there is no viable multi-file select widget on most of the browsers we tested, even though the form elements allow for it. We were not going to ask our user to select dozens or hundreds of files individually, e.g. add one file at a time to the batch, but selecting an entire directory tree of files would be OK.
We don't have the budget to develop or require browser extensions for this, and we were not interested in even looking at whether flash could do it, since Java is the lesser of two evils there. We also couldn't wait for the new HTML versions where drag and drop of a directory might be a viable option.
Let's lowball the estimate, and say that the engineer's cost to the organization (desk space, salary, benefits, hardware, networking costs, phone, electricity, everything else - TCO, in other words) is in the order of ~150k per year. You and I both know that's low (HR estimates at my company place the value of 1 engineer for a year at about 250k), but let's assume it's much lower.
Figure you get about 2000 hours per year of work out of that engineer (40 hrs / week, 50 weeks a year) - that means the company is paying $75 per hour the developer works.
Now let's say that that setup is $3000 more expensive than an equivalent PC - the equivalent of 40 extra hours worth of work (75/hr * 40 hrs = $3000).
So how do we determine the point at which the company would break even on this investment? Most hardware is depreciated over 3 years. So... they'd have to get the equivalent of 40 hours extra of work out of the developer over 3 years, or 13.33... hours per year of extra productivity out of the more expensive system, to break even - roughly speaking, a ~0.7% efficiency gain, assuming 2000 hours worked each year - in other words, do 2013.33... hours of work in the time it would have taken previously to do 2000 hours of work.
Do you think that a developer being given a Unix desktop environment that he prefers, and the Unix environment which he's familiar with, would be able to squeeze ~4 minutes worth of extra productivity out of each work day? Shit, I spend that long just booting my system up & signing in while all the virus scans and security settings apply in the morning. I regularly spend that much time waiting for files to transfer around to a UNIX system so I can work on the files on the remote system, because my laptop runs windows.
Obviously, there's other costs to the organization as well, for supporting these additional desktops... but let's be honest here - you can easily make a strong case that spending a little bit more money on a better quality tool is an *investment* in increased productivity & increased savings over the life of the tool. You can't look at sticker price in a vacuum, and say "Mac > Windows PC, therefore robbery."
I pretty much thought that Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison were/are on good terms/friends. It could be that Steve called up Larry and said, "Do you mind picking up Java development for Mac now that you own Sun?" and Larry probably said, "Sure."
Of course it also meant that no one else really knew or cared about it until Apple announced the decision to drop their Java development. Probably 2 or 3 engineers from Apple will be slaved to to Oracle and that will be it.
all those users who point their browsers to servers running Java distributed management systems whether they are produced by Oracle, IBM, Apache, Brocade switches, or others and expect to get a response.
Those without the JVM might at some point see their Javascript requests reach a server, which will go into a if or case statement that effectively says: if [your favorite Mac Browser environment here] {wait()} /[in low priority que until high priority Java requests are responded to first]; else {} /[continue at normal/high priority];, particularly those whose data is stored in Oracle databases, which is a lot of big corporation iron. In a sense this is what is happening now to Apple users on the client side by only having an older JVM technology at their disposal. If Apple wants leverage in server space and general-purpose computing they might be better off seeking a more powerful voice on in the Java Community Process. My sense is they are not interested and seek to build a closed Apple-oriented sub-net for Apple Store product purchasers, along the lines of Sony, Nintendo and other gaming platforms.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out going forward as Oracle, Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Google and others try to play one another's technology off against each other to dominate the business applications space.
But prophesy is one of the major functions of an oracle!
>All of my banking website depend heavily on JavaScript, but not a single one uses java. Don't make that bet that the bank's General Ledger transactions and their reporting don't use Java. I can assure you that they do. I'll go further and say that they probably use some SAP product or another, and have substantial parts of their customizations in Java. You are seeing "Java" strictly from the point of view of the end user on a web application, where it wouldn't even be appropriate to find Java. You're not considering the huge amount of business software that's deployed in JVMs. There's a whole lot of Java out there that you'll never "see". It's been moving into a space over the past decade or so that used to be dominated by COBOL which you also didn't "see".
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
You're stretching. Two 27" monitors and two graphics cards? And he didn't say the company wouldn't spend $6k for "your" machine, just that some of their developers use Macs. For all you know the non-Mac developers are using ridiculously expensive Sun workstations or something.
Besides, the extra $3k might be worth it if it makes the developers more productive. A developer making $70k a year can cost a company around $95k a year with benefits. If the Mac makes them 3% more productive, it's worth it. If the alternative is a Windows PC, a 3% productivity boost seems feasible.
If they're too stupid to use the Mac tools for central admin, they're probably too stupid to use the Windows and Linux tools for doing it.
Yes you are right for now, but my guess is that bean counters at Apple think that enough of them will be sufficiently satisfied with an Apple friendly orientation and part of the Apple Platform Store product line to serve their universe of users. Apple is moving progressively toward the Sony-Nintendo market model, not the Linux model of software development. Closed runtimes not open development and
If you are willing to pay for it and it suits your needs and you don't have a problem being dependent on Apple's way of doing things or how or if they may want to support your favorite app in the future, then Apple is a reasonable bet. They are moving away from general-purpose computing in the broadest sense, as they see more profits in more proprietary systems and captured [locked in] software audiences. Java poses a threat to that or addresses an entirely different audience.
There sure is such a word, and your post sure isn't an example of it.
Given OSX's essentially unixy guts, it should be comparatively trivial to get one of the other unix java implementations going; but the Mac faithful are going to lose their shit if they have to endure X11.
I suspect that it is Game Over for Java as part of the "Mac" experience; but nothing barring the hypothetical cryptographic lockdown of the desktop mac will stop people from treating macs as unixy java dev environments that can also run word and photoshop if they want to.
Really, this is just Apple saying "fuck off with your greasy Android apps". A pre-emptive strike against the low quality code and design that exists "over there".
Yeah, because fart apps and a cool accelerometer-enabled lightsaber are "high-quality code".
Go soak your head.
theoretical ivory tower B.S. Real computers have limits on resources and capability that make the statement false in some cases. For example, you can't port the jvm to a Z80 or an IBM 1620 in this universe.
That's because no Turing machine is physically realizable due to the infinite tape, but that doesn't negate the truth of the principle. All physically realizable machines are finite state machines.
Sure you could, it would just be brutally slow, and you'll have to live with the fact that some programs will simply throw out of memory exceptions. Java or the JVM make no guarantees about the amount of available physical resources.
Realistically, you would use an external I/O interface to address a sufficiently large enough address space to run these programs.
So again, this doesn't negate the point that JVM opcodes can be compiled to any other abstract or real machine and executed. There's noting special about Dalvik doing this.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
If this stops Java applets on the web from running in the browser it's going to be a major pain in the ass for banks like mine which use Java as part of the security system.
Another one I recall is the Singapore Singpass system - which also uses Java for the login.
Guess all those having to use a particular website with Java are going to have to ditch Macs soon.
...or that, under Larry, it is getting significantly more expensive with no increase in benefit.
Honestly, it almost comes off as personal. Do a quick image search for "Steve Jobs and" vs. "Larry Ellison and." The first page of Steve are with Bill Gates, Woz, Eric Schmidt and others. The first page of Larry consists of nothing but Larry, his yacht, his wife and his McLaren.
Then do a google for "Oracle"+"Sues"+"Java."
Larry is being a dick and Steve is telling him to fuck off and takes his newly acquired toys with him.
Can you tell I'm pissed?
I'm a java developer, but I much prefer the OSX platform over winders or linux. All of my desktops at home are macs, and I was just days away from buying a new macbook air. Well, not now. I'd regretted buying a PC laptop a few months ago. No longer. I often thought that if I decided to switch development platforms it'd be to OSX. No longer. I often scoffed at others grousing about Apple's "walled garden." NO LONGER. I was a satisfied Apple customer. NO LONGER!
not actionable in the real world, your "magic external I/O space to sufficiently large address space" doesn't exist and would only render a practically useless curiosity if it did.
Thus showing why engineers make operating systems and systems and computer scientists make failed attempts at ones.
I don't know. I can imagine Larry Ellison and Steve Jobs playing nice. They're in mutually exclusive industries other than the slight overlap between Xserves and Sun servers(well, and maybe Mac Pros and Sun workstations; however, given the slim niche nature of these products, I don't think they're fighting it out).
I don't predict another Apple/Adobe, I think it's more likely Apple/Google. Some tension, but, they're nice enough to each other. Given that Steve-o's loosened his grip on interpreted code on iDevices, I'm pretty sure the next step is a JavaTouch type API that would allow java devs to work in a multitouch environment ensnaring Javaheads to do work on iDevices making everyone happy. Oracle gets to have a direct hand in the form of a JDK that can target iOS devices running a real JVM(as opposed to Dalvik, Dalvik's nice, but it's strictly not a JVM), and Apple gets to have up to date java releases for the desktop freeing up their own resources for other duties.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Some engineer you are. It's called a hard disk. C's read()/write()/seek() are all you need.
Being an engineer myself, I sure hope you aren't an accredited one, because if so, it shows a distinct decline in the quality of education.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
So how do you explain, say, the lack of Linux support for all those iPod owning Linux geeks. A winelib version would do. Or at least not bricking an iPod after loading music from a non iTunes app.
Either you're cross-platform or you're not and, BSD aside, Apple seems to be Mac and Windows only shop these days. I can only speculate why, and I did cop to paranoia. I just wish I knew I was wrong.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
If you read the article, on page2 it says that OpenJDK is already ported to OSX. However, it is incomplete in the UI sense; it only uses X11 libraries and the Java integration with Cocoa/the native UI doesn't exist.
I was really disappointed to see this. It does feel like Apple is so hyper-focused on iPhone/iPad/etc technologies that they are completely neglecting the support that the developer community has provided for OS X as a developer platform.
I know that many, many devs like myself use Macs, and many of us either code in Java or a JVM-based language (Scala), or we use Java-based tools (NetBeans, Eclipse, IntelliJ). Honestly this comes across as a slap in the face to developers, and so many of us who have put our trust in the Mac as a development platform are really going to feel betrayed by this. We love our Macs, the bash shell, the quality and stability of the OS, and we love developing on them! Apple, please think about the ill-will you are spreading to the development community!!
Considering all that, I think all we can do at this point is hope that Oracle will be fast in getting their distro of Java ready for OS X. I wonder would there be any chance of native OS X Aqua support or would everything be relegated to X11?
In the meantime I will hope for the best while preparing myself for the possibility that I will have to move to Linux for my primary desktop environment. Having grown accustomed to the polish and quality of desktop apps for OS X over the last ten years, this will be a tough pill to swallow. Perhaps ChromeOS will evolve into a true competitor to OS X over the next few years.
Basically, Sun never supported Java on the Mac, Apple did. Apple provided the developers, the tools, apple did all the work, and then paid Sun for the privilege. (it costs money to make sure your JVM was approved).
With oracle now suing every other Java implementation out there that wasn't approved Apple probably thought it just wasn't worth it. Expensive to do, costs money to do it, and unless your sending money up to oracle yearly, now a patent nightmare mess.
Look at it this way a side effect might be that Oracle stops suing non oracle approved JVM's, including Davik. The Bad press might be more than they realize.
I was thinking the same thing. Oracle is becoming too lawyer-trigger happy with Java, and even if I was "safe" under some agreement I still would back out before they found a loophole to try to sue me over too. Besides, there is heavy chance their licensing agreement has ties to OS versions, and the upcoming Lion OSX forced revisions with terms Apple did not agree with.
On October 23rd, 2010, Apple Computers will deprecate Java. And you'll see why 1984 will actually be like "1984."
That depends really if the cost of pretty much throwing away any hope of the Mac ever becoming a serious business platform is a price Steve is willing to pay.
It would seem it is. I guess he figures Apple just doesn't need business customers ever and can continue to just expand indefinitely in the consumer market.
They came first for Flash,
and I didn't post because I wasn't into broadcasting a webcam.
Then they came for the Java,
and I didn't blog because I wasn't a programmer.
Then they came for OS X,
and I didn't tweet because I wasn't a Mac Pro owner.
Then governments made Apple way the only approved way to own a computer.
Good thing I have a huge collection of old computers like C64s, Amigas and 80386 PCs. And a gun to protect them and in bloodshed bind them.
- Raynet --> .
I don't even think the latest OS X supports PowerPC, so why would it matter anyway?
Java isn't being "deprecated" on OS X. Apple is just not going to work on its native JVM implementation anymore. This isn't surprising since the Java-Cocoa bridge was deprecated years ago. Third-party JVMs, such as SoyLatte, will continue to work as usual.
I'm the developer of Flying Logic, a highly graphical planning application that runs beautifully on Mac, Windows, and even Linux thanks to Java. But I'm a Mac guy, and I do all my development on the Mac, and I use a number of other Java applications on my Mac including IntelliJ and MySQL Workbench. I also develop iOS software, and I've had numerous requests for Flying Logic on the iPad, which would require a binary-compatible JRE. So even though I'm an Apple fanboy and supportive of many of their moves, I'm quite disappointed that Apple has left a huge question mark hanging over the fate of Java applications on the Mac.
What the hell is "OS-X?" Did you mean OS X? Because there's ho hyphen.
I wasn't aware of the capabilities of the card in question, so included two.
I'm sorry, but a 'cinema' display means nothing to me. I prefer a wide screen format display for many terminals and side/side windows. Two of them is better, and I'd rather have a good LCD than a crap one for a workstation. That's what makes sitting in front of one all day tolerable.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Wasn't j2me one of the few solid sources of income for Sun?
One that hath name thou can not otter
So how do you explain, say, the lack of Linux support for all those iPod owning Linux geeks. A winelib version would do. Or at least not bricking an iPod after loading music from a non iTunes app.
You misunderstood me. Those iPad using linux geeks moved over to apple as soon as they could justify the cost of an Apple workstation or laptop (around 10.3 or 10.4, I think it was).
I seem to recall early iPods worked just fine in Linux; I had a 2gig nano which I could sync with (I think it was) apod or similar. aptitude shows a number of ipod/iphone related tools, though I've never tried them (nor will I - I traded my iPod for a nice pair of boots).
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
yes, I'm a real engineer, and I'll even agree theory is important and valuable including Turing Machine capabilities.
BUT let's think about that hard disk business. Hard disk for IBM 1620 did exist, the 1311 with two megabytes. Put that on a 50KHz driven 1620 and good luck with your jvm. Maybe you could prompt the user to halt and power off the machine and change hard disks.
Like I said, not actionable. useless.
funny you speak of C compiler, please show me one with run-time libraries that would fit on 1620 with max core (60K decimal digits)
useless ivory tower bullshit.
Virtualization? Shouldn't be slower just more annoying. Or by the time it matters oracle will have folded the hand and got their own Mac dev team.
Occam's razor suggests that the Apple one had three times as much stack space available. Or maybe other defaults enabled. Rather than a fancy-schmancy optimization hacked into the JIT.
Do you have a point? You've essentially acknowledged that there's nothing intrinsically limiting the IBM 1620's ability to execute arbitrary programs, except the hardware limitations at the time. In fact, there's nothing intrinsically limiting any machine from becoming a real universal Turing machine, except the infinite tape requirements of said machine, ie. a true universal Turing machine is physically unrealizable.
These are all well known facts, and they in no way disprove any of my statements, in particular my original one which started this whole thread.
So if you have an actual, useful point, I'd like to hear it.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
I heard you like virtual machines...
Do you have a point? You've essentially acknowledged that there's nothing intrinsically limiting the IBM 1620's ability to execute arbitrary programs, except the hardware limitations at the time. In fact, there's nothing intrinsically limiting any current computer from being universal Turing machine, except the infinite tape requirements of said machine, ie. a true universal Turing machine is physically unrealizable.
These are all well known facts, and they in no way disprove any of my statements, in particular my original one which started this whole thread.
So if you have an actual, useful point, I'd like to hear it.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Since C++ apps will run on just about every desktop and mobile platform out there (besides Blackberry).
And Windows Phone 7. Which is what, 2 out of the major 6? (iOS, Android, WebOS, Blackberry OS, Symbian, WinPhone)
The 'outrage' in the media surprises me. Maybe I'm confused, but I don't believe that Microsoft includes java on any of their platforms. Why isn't the media wound up about that?
It's because Apple's VM always used to be special in the amount of integration it provided, especially with respect to UI. On Windows, for a long time, users of Java software had to endure the fugly and non-native-looking Swing L&F. Even today it's still kinda meh - font antialiasing is quite different from how Windows does it, for example. On OS X, Apple did a lot to make sure that it doesn't look like complete crap, even if it's still not perfect - at least the menu bar is where it's supposed to be!. There is also no X dependency there, either.
And, apparently, all the code to do that is kept in-house by Apple, so for Oracle to come up with a VM that maintains the same level of integration, they'd have to do considerable work - which they will probably not bother with. End result, for Java users on OS X, is that, eventually, Java apps will look even more crappy than they used to be, and probably the most out-of-place of all desktop environments.
I don't know why but after reading your comment this whole Windows vs Linux vs Mac OS kindda reminds me to the three kingdoms tale, each one egging for another and will `team up` to secure a winning: total domination over ancient China.
.. okay maybe I should go now.
Perhaps ChromeOS will evolve into a true competitor to OS X over the next few years.
For running fat (when it comes to Java IDEs, this word doesn't quite do them justice!) client apps? Not bloody likely.
For test/dev, the desktop shouldn't matter -- just use a virtual machine!
It's really not all that implausible that ChromeOS would be able to run Java and Java IDE's just fine. Google itself does tons of Java development.
:)
You don't think they would have some interest in being able to develop on ChromeOS? It seems entirely possible that Google could do what Apple has done going from OS X to iOS, but in reverse, to the point where ChromeOS can do everything Linux can do, only prettier
Ladies & gentlemen allow me to welcome back the wise and wonderful Tharsman, one of an elite bunch of fucking tiresome Apple trolls.
Watch and wonder as this pitiful little demonstrates his devotion to Steve Jobs by taking his wrinkled old pecker into his mouth once more, like its going out of style (looking at the desktop market share of Apple hopefully it is!!!!)
Go and fill that Apple shaped hole in your heart with something more wholesome son, like god (i can do you a great deal on a nice zip-up bible with a magical aluminum effect on the cover if you've got any cash left you gullible little turd you)
It's really not all that implausible that ChromeOS would be able to run Java and Java IDE's just fine. Google itself does tons of Java development.
You don't think they would have some interest in being able to develop on ChromeOS?
Absolutely. ChromeOS is clearly an "appliance OS" in the vein of iOS - in fact, even more so, with it being so web-centered. Underneath it's all just Linux anyway, so you don't really get anything from running full-featured Linux client apps on it. Just use any decent Linux distro. I would expect that's precisely what Google does.
One other aspect is that, so far, I haven't seen any plans for Google to even put ChromeOS on anything but tablets/netbooks and Google TV. And I don't know about you, but I like a beefy, dual-head (at least) desktop for development.
They didn't for the first four releases of OSX. For version 10.4, Apple made a release, after some community work to get the Sun FreeBSD JDK ported.
In short, once a JDK is no longer available from Apple, Java developers will need to move on to Windows for development. Which rather sucks.
I agree--the current picture of ChromeOS is that of an "applicance OS"--much like iOS is for Apple.
But as I said before, if they simultaneously take it in the desktop direction there is no reason why there could not be a "full blown desktop" version of ChromeOS *if* they do the reverse of what Apple did.
The reason this would be preferable to Linux for people coming from Mac OS X would be the better end-user polish it would provide and better windowing system (not X11).
I think there is a substantial number of us for whom Linux still is too clunky in a number of UI areas that even though we love using bash for development and sysadmin work, we want something a little more polished for everyday end-user stuff.
Not to be a ass, but this is the kind of rookie development we (java devs) did 10 years ago. We wrote/debugged code on windows and expected it to run without problem on solaris. No dice. I believe the cliche used today is write once, debug everywhere. Point is, if you target is windows and/or Linux you shouldn't be using macs in the first place for developement. I used to work for a shop that did wrote c/c++ targeting (unix variants). A lot of people used macs, but they were simply using the mac as a glorified xterm. Devs were always ssh'd into a real dev machine.
Just like with Flash...
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Thing is, Google isn't really interested about the desktop. They've made it a point many times that they believe in the future being web-centric, with mainstream devices consequently oriented towards the consumption of web content... this doesn't really mesh well with the modern desktop OS concept.
Leaving Google specifics aside, I do think that this is indeed the approach where it will go, and the success of iPad is very much an evidence of that. I think we'll see the today's unified computing platform clearly diverge into consumption-oriented "appliances" with their respective OSes - which will be mainstream - and specialized content creation-oriented platforms that will evolve from thick clients of today. For the latter, many flaws of "normal" desktop Linux will disappear due to its specialized nature - e.g. you wouldn't play games on it anyway, and knowledgeable hardware picks would be the norm rather than exception for the target audience.
or the default stack size was bigger or mac.
I'm a full-time Java developer, and I can safely say that J2ME was a big pile of shit. It was an abomination and we should all be glad it's mostly irrelevant these days and doesn't even exist on modern, high-end smart phone systems like iOS and Android.
Java belongs on the server. It's awesome at that. They should just forget the desktop and mobile.
It will make the software industry so horribly unequal, one will again be able to tell the difference between mediocre software and truly horribly evil software again. As some NASA developers once put it:
"JAVA truly is the great equalizing software. It has reduced all computers to mediocrity and buggyness."
But in all truth, we wont get rid of Java any time soon, it has become the new COBOL that will haunt us fifty years from now.
"When in doubt, use brute force." Ken Thompson
Are Apple web services still built on WebObjects? If that's still the case then the benefit of Java for Apple are the Music and App store, mobile me and the online Apple Store... What will happen of WebObjects?
There is no reason that a Scheme interpreter would use host language recursion for recursion in the Scheme program. Any student setting out to implement Scheme in the time frame when Java was available should have encountered "tail recursion" and "call/cc" in their background reading and reinvented or learned one of the obvious idioms to implement Scheme semantics via iteration and a heap-based continuation store.
yeah try do that in 3 week
Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
no it was a piece of crap, it supported about a quarter of the scheme spec, it was a 3 weeks, end of trimester compiler theory project.
Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
Are Apple web services still built on WebObjects? If that's still the case then the benefit of Java for Apple are the Music and App store, mobile me and the online Apple Store... What will happen of WebObjects?
Yes. All the important stuff is WebObjects. Interestingly, all the WebObjects docs and info have been moved to the "Legacy" section of the developer site since Snow Leopard was released and WO was pulled from OS X 10.6 server.
Does that mean they are going to be moving away from Java with those stores? I doubt it. More than a year on, they haven't yet. Besides, how would they serve 11 million songs a day at iTMS without Java? Ruby, PHP, or maybe some other dog slow scripting language? I don't see it. Perhaps they'll just move them to some non-Mac servers... Maybe Steve decided they didn't need to eat their own dogfood anymore.
All this "will Oracle provide a JVM for MacOS X or not?" speculation is dumb. Jobs says he wants Oracle to take the responsibility for providing the JVM so the MacOS X version isn't always one rev behind. Larry Ellison owns Oracle. Ellison and Steve Jobs are BFFs. It'll take exactly one phone call from Jobs to Ellison and there will be a MacOS JVM, end of story.
It is confusing. Are you guys talking about Java programming language or JVM?
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
You can't look at sticker price in a vacuum, and say "Mac > Windows PC, therefore robbery."
It's a free country. I can, and I will, say whatever I want, sir! But not in a vacuum, you're right about that part. My body would explode gruesomely, like in Total Recall.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
Whoever wins, we lose.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I must admit that i wasn't much of an apple fanboy before, but this tantrum throwing over a COMPUTER LANGUAGE is just too Steve. Barf...
That's beside the point of it being a large source of income...
Plus - I'm not sure if "irrelevant" accurately describes the most ubiquitous mobile app platform(s?...yeah, not nice enough to be strictly single one) on the planet; one which, for example, powers the #1 mobile web browser (on the side of the phones at least) - #1 by site hits, despite many of its users being rather frugal about number of sites visited / data costs (but then, many of them don't even have access to anything else, and won't have for some time to come; so perhaps it's best for j2me to not be forgotten just yet)
One that hath name thou can not otter
Total tangent though. Perhaps it was code to exercise a compiler's tail-call optimizer.
... and deprecating it on the Mac will remove one argument for allowing Java on the i-devices. Apple earns money via their app store and don't want a JVM there to compete with. Ergo skip java completely. For my company it means that our java based customer programs that now support Linux / Windows / Mac OS X in the future will support only Linux and Apple. We're certainly not going to reprogram them from start just to support Apple. What it means for our apple based customers is hard to say.
What the hell is "OS X"? Because the one by Apple is named Mac OS X.
I disagree. What I observe is that Apple is rapidly moving away from cross-platform development by limiting the choice of languages.
On XCode 3.2, Apple removed all Carbon project templates. Why would they do that unless they plan on discontinuing Carbon on the future? The same XCode release removed the Cocoa projects that used Python and Ruby. And now Java is no longer supported directly by them. So if you want to use Cocoa, your only safe bet is Objective-C. Give it 5-10 more years, and you will have a very tightly controlled development environment that is not compatible with anything else. This may be convenient for Apple, but it is certainly not good for software developers.
I know that there are Objective-C compilers for other platforms, but I do not know a single cross-platform developer that prefers Objective-C over C++, when having available an equally well supported OS framework for both.
It's part of a platform that is supposed to be attractive to customers.
You might as well say they maintain their power adapter designs "for free".
you had me at #!
You're certainly getting warm with this comment.
It seems clearly connected with recently announced plans to start closing the Mac OS X application ecosystem. Apple clearly wants to discourage 3rd party platforms on OS X, as they so controversially did with iOS.
you had me at #!
John Battelle
you had me at #!
The NeoOffice UI layer is written in Java, and according to the developers, would have been difficult to implement natively. The Vuze (Azureus) BitTorrent client and InterMapper Remote are also implemented in Java. In fact, Java applications on the Mac can look just like native ones, so it's often not obvious when Java is being used.
I use PS3MediaServer.
it's written in Java and does a damn fine job of transcoding my media for my ps3.
I say bollocks.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I'd mod you up if I had the points. A tool's a tool, and if your employees work best with one brand over another and it's such a small cost, you're wasting your time.
This all goes back to the post a while ago about specing out 1000 PCs for a governmental department, and some people earnestly thought it would be worth it to build your own. Insane! Find out what you really need and buy the right tool for the job and be willing to pay for it to work well. If you buy shoddy tools, expect them to hurt your bottom line in more ways than one.
Agreed. And it's something that a lot of FOSS advocates here lose sight of - in the grand scheme of things, "sticker prices" are a vanishingly small part of the total cost of ownership - choosing a piece of software *simply* because it's "free" doesn't make sense if it costs your organization 2x the cost to operate as you would have spent on licensing a 'closed' piece of software instead. You choose the best tool for the job you need to accomplish - sticker price should almost always be the *last* piece of the equation you look at - staffing & hardware costs to support the software in your organization will turn the purchase price into a rounding error in your total cost. If everything else is absolutely equivalent, then the free one should win... but I've yet to see an assessment come down purely to purchase cost (rather than functionality & ease of maintenance) - in the cases where the open-source tool has won out (Linux, apache, tomcat, perl, eclipse...), the 'free to use' bullet point has simply been an additional bonus above and beyond the other functionality & cost savings that drove the decision.
I am writing music notation and playback software using Java. The one code base is tested on OS X 10.3.9, 10.4.11 and Windows XP. It uses a powerful rule engine called Java Expert System Shell (JESS) via its Java API. I have a lot invested in Java and I will not search for another rule engine for Objective-C, if it even exists at all. If Apple kills and blocks the Java ecosystem in its products, I will dump the Apple ecosystem. Mr. Steve Jobs, you will have become worse than Bill Gates, vying for complete control over developers. I will sell off my Macbook Pro, my old G4 tower and iPod shuffle and cancel my planned upgrades of all three. Windows and Linux will be the new homes I have NEVER called home before. I used to own an Apple II long ago showing my support for principled companies I will encourage all those who bought into the ever closing Mac ecosystem, to leave it. I hope the Apple Board and Apple’s shareholders will stay awake at night because of the exodus until they support Java in all their products and help make it better. As a GUI API, Java works perfectly. It makes multiplatform development easy for the small business. Steve Jobs doesn’t care about small businesses anymore. He cares about his Objective-C like Bill Gates cared about his MS-DOS and Windows
Their own enterprise apps (like Oracle Financials) still use applets.
I'm not talking about the big back-end servers running Java (which they do, but that's not relevant), I'm talking about the end-user desktops requiring it. Oracle can "suddenly" lock Macintoshes users out of using some of their enterprise apps, they can port those apps to have a different non-Java front-end, or they can add MacOS alongside Linux and Windows as a platform they release Java for.
I'm betting that upon considering all the financial and PR trade-offs of those choices, they'll decide the last one is their best option.
Apple became an iGadget maker, so they don't care about Java.
http://www.burlingtontelecom.net/~ashawley/gnu/emacs/ConText-Kelty.pdf Page 2 ... nice reference to "Donald Knuth's monumental work The Art of Computer Programming [Knuth, 1997])" ... I'll take Knuth's opinion over yours any day, and I'm not the only one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming
Others:
The Art of Unix Programming: http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/
Or this: http://onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/06/30/artofprog.html
Einstein:
Quotes from RMS, Brookes, etc. Programming is art when done right. You obviously are incapable of seeing that by your own words - must be the brain-damage from too much Java, if you have to write stupidity like this:
I'm the one who got called in to rewrite the server at one company when nobody else could complete the project (note - this is a server, not just an application) - it spawns 400 threads at startup, each one waiting for work, does the task, then goes back into the pool. It responds to 1,000 requests per second, without ever having a memory leak or killing and re-spawning a thread to retrieve memory. It's not impossible to write leak-proof c and c++ code, but it is an art, one you will never be able to achieve, because you are no artist.
-- Barbie
You don't run java source files. You have to compile them first.