Slashdot Mirror

>There's no apartheid beyond what the media is telling you there is.

So there is apartheid, and only what the media is telling us? There isn't any further apartheid than what the media has already exposed?

Apartheid, according to the Rome statute is

inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

While Palestinians have done nasty things to the Israelis just like Africans did to the Boers, that doesn't negate the fact that there is indeed a legal and institutional mechanism to keep Palestinians apart from Israelis.

The differentiation is entirely based on race, not on other factors like education, income, etc.
A Palestinian cannot buy into an Israeli (Jewish) area even if he had the money to.

There are separate roads for Jews vs. aboriginals. There are separate residential colonies for Jews, no aboriginals allowed.

Much land in Israel is owned by the Jewish National Fund, which, after acquiring land by one means or another, leases it back to only Jews:

The Jewish National Fund (JNF) is a multi-national corporation with offices in about dozen countries world-wide. It receives millions of dollars from wealthy and ordinary Jews around the world and other donors, most of which are tax-exempt contributions. JNF aim is to acquire and develop lands exclusively for the benefit of Jews residing in Israel.

The fact is that JNF, in its operations in Israel, had expropriated illegally most of the land of 372 Palestinian villages which had been ethnically cleansed by Zionist forces in 1948. The owners of this land are over half the UN registered Palestinian refugees. JNF had actively participated in the physical destruction of many villages, in evacuating these villages of their inhabitants and in military operations to conquer these villages. Today JNF controls over 2500 sq. km of Palestinian land which it leases to Jews only. It also planted 100 parks on Palestinian land.

The government of Israel wants to make the citizenship of Arab Israelis dependent upon loyalty oaths to the "Jewish character" of Israel. What would people say about asking Africans to take an oath to the "Boer character of South Africa"? Or the "white character of Alabama"?

Similar to the way the Ku Klux Klan operated as a quasi-citizens council, the Rabbinical councils pass decrees about not renting to aboriginals, which are enforced through threats of violence.

If the state has no intention of discriminating on the basis of race, why do Israeli ID cards note race?

Infrastructure (water, roads, etc.) is allocated on a preferential basis to Jewish settlements. The wall (which exceeds the limits of the 1968 line) cuts aboriginals off from their farmlands and orchards. In order to go from one place to another, they must travel a circuitous network of paths, often by foot. Humans who differ from the aboriginals by accident of birth can travel on wide, new highways.

Here are a couple of facts that refute your arguments;

1. There was a significant Jewish population in Palestine. From these two documents http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/A-Survey-of-Palestine/Story6582.html and http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story835.html the Jewish population in 1920 was 61,284 vs 486,000 Muslims So 12% is not a significant population?. Yes there was a low point during the Crusades but there has always been a significant presence.

2. 367,845 Jews legally immigrated to Palestine between 1920 and 1945, http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story835.html. A further 50,000-60,000 immigrated illegally. So you "mostly illegal" statement is false.

3. Here are a few dates you might look up.
611AD The Byzantine Emperor, Heraclius, promised to restore Jewish rights and received Jewish help in defeating the Persians,
Between the 7th and 11th centuries, Jewish scribes, called the Masoretes and located in Galilee and Jerusalem, established the Masoretic Text, the final text of the Hebrew Bible.
1260AD Baibars banned Jews from worshipping at the Cave of the Patriarchs (the second holiest site in Judaism) until its conquest by Israel 700 years later.
1834 There was a massacre of Jews in Palestine during Muhammad Ali of Egypt's occupation
There has been significant continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for a very long time.

After centuries of genocide and displacement the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and gave them parts of Palestine. The surrounding Arabs didn't agree and have tried to destroy them ever since.

Here are a couple of facts that refute your arguments;

1. There was a significant Jewish population in Palestine. From these two documents http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/A-Survey-of-Palestine/Story6582.html and http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story835.html the Jewish population in 1920 was 61,284 vs 486,000 Muslims So 12% is not a significant population?. Yes there was a low point during the Crusades but there has always been a significant presence.

2. 367,845 Jews legally immigrated to Palestine between 1920 and 1945, http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story835.html. A further 50,000-60,000 immigrated illegally. So you "mostly illegal" statement is false.

3. Here are a few dates you might look up.
611AD The Byzantine Emperor, Heraclius, promised to restore Jewish rights and received Jewish help in defeating the Persians,
Between the 7th and 11th centuries, Jewish scribes, called the Masoretes and located in Galilee and Jerusalem, established the Masoretic Text, the final text of the Hebrew Bible.
1260AD Baibars banned Jews from worshipping at the Cave of the Patriarchs (the second holiest site in Judaism) until its conquest by Israel 700 years later.
1834 There was a massacre of Jews in Palestine during Muhammad Ali of Egypt's occupation
There has been significant continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for a very long time.

After centuries of genocide and displacement the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and gave them parts of Palestine. The surrounding Arabs didn't agree and have tried to destroy them ever since.

Here are a couple of facts that refute your arguments;

1. There was a significant Jewish population in Palestine. From these two documents http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/A-Survey-of-Palestine/Story6582.html and http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story835.html the Jewish population in 1920 was 61,284 vs 486,000 Muslims So 12% is not a significant population?. Yes there was a low point during the Crusades but there has always been a significant presence.

2. 367,845 Jews legally immigrated to Palestine between 1920 and 1945, http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Books/Story835.html. A further 50,000-60,000 immigrated illegally. So you "mostly illegal" statement is false.

3. Here are a few dates you might look up.
611AD The Byzantine Emperor, Heraclius, promised to restore Jewish rights and received Jewish help in defeating the Persians,
Between the 7th and 11th centuries, Jewish scribes, called the Masoretes and located in Galilee and Jerusalem, established the Masoretic Text, the final text of the Hebrew Bible.
1260AD Baibars banned Jews from worshipping at the Cave of the Patriarchs (the second holiest site in Judaism) until its conquest by Israel 700 years later.
1834 There was a massacre of Jews in Palestine during Muhammad Ali of Egypt's occupation
There has been significant continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for a very long time.

After centuries of genocide and displacement the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and gave them parts of Palestine. The surrounding Arabs didn't agree and have tried to destroy them ever since.

Israel has its own religious fanatics. The settlers in the West Bank (and formerly in Gaza) are religious fanatics bent on the creation of Greater Israel. Fortunately, the government of Israel is being far less indulgent to the settlers than they have in the past.

For the most part, there are no independent Israeli mass murders because their overwhelmingly powerful army does most of the killing. Their army kills and maims civilians near militant leaders by bombing apartment blocks and shooting missiles at cars on busy streets. The hatred is not one-way, though the despair and desperation that originates in collective punishment and leads people to conclude that blowing themselves up to take others with them is a good idea is truly uniquely Palestinian.

I'm not very fond of either side in the Israel-Palestine conflict, but the 3:1 Palestinians:Israelis body count ratio and the overwhelming difference in force strength really does leave Israel looking like the bully in the relationship.

"you should do some reading about the '48, '67, and '73 wars. They are wars of aggression and conquest launched by Israel's Arab neighbors."

1946 until now, looks to me like someone has an unfair advantage. They've got friends, you've got friends. It's a damn shame they have to be mutually exclusive. The crusades were a great plague on the region, and so is war from Arab allies.

"You should also look at Barak's peace offer. It's a great deal."

Errrmmm.. Yeah, generous. Wow.

The Palestinian's "speck of land" is really to the east. It's called Jordan

Yes. Lets just brush aside that you're calling for ethnic cleansing of millions of people from their homes because you've ordained that they should live in Jordan just because they're the same race.

The Israelis have offered large chunks

The old "Barak's Generous Offer" myth rears its ugly head again. Here's a map that really drives its generosity home.

Now can we get back to discussing role playing and whether or not that makes you a security risk?

The Palestinian's "speck of land" is really to the east. It's called Jordan

Yes. Lets just brush aside that you're calling for ethnic cleansing of millions of people from their homes because you've ordained that they should live in Jordan just because they're the same race.

The Israelis have offered large chunks

The old "Barak's Generous Offer" myth rears its ugly head again. Here's a map that really drives its generosity home.

Now can we get back to discussing role playing and whether or not that makes you a security risk?

The area occupied by Israel was largely unoccupied before the late 1800s and early 1900s when Jewish settlers started moving into the area.

Completely incorrect. The inconvenient fact that there were all these people already there is why the Zionists had to engage in a campaign of ethnic cleansing in 1948, and why the "right to return" has been an issue.

When Israel was formed it was the largest single group of Jews in the world and its creation was merely a matter of the British setting borders in the area to best represent the political/racial groups.

Let's get the history straight. At the end of WWI, with the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, the League of Nations decision to place Palestine under the administration of Great Britain. The British double-crossed the Arab population living there and made the Balfour Declaration, commiting Britian to the establishment of Jewish homeland in Palestine. (As with current U.S. support, the primary motivation was strategic interests in the area.)

In the early 20th century there were around 50,000 Jewish settlers living in the region, constituting perhaps 10% of the population. The remaining 90% of the population was, oddly enough. not very pleased at having foreign colonial powers come in and take over. (It should be noted that before WWI, the Jews and Arabs in the region got along reasonably peacefully. It was Zionists outside Palestine who worked for the Balfour Declaration.)

During the 1920s, thanks to British policies about 100,000 Jewish immigrants arrived - a substantial number in a region with a population of about 750,000. The Jewish population more than doubled, rising to over 17%, and tensions began to rise.

In the 1930s, the Nazis began their reign of terror, and many Jews who escaped came to Palestine. By 1939 the Jewish population was over 445,000, out of a total of about 1,500,000 - nearly 30 per cent. By 1947, the total population of Palestine was 1,850,000, including 608,000 Jews.

The large Jewish population in the region at the time of the parition was only the result of decades of concerted effort by the British and by Zionist organizations.

The reason why the State of Israel exists today and why today 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs are refugees is that, for 30 years, Jewish immigration was imposed on the Palestinian Arabs by British military power until the immigrants were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently well-armed to be able to fend for themselves with tanks and planes of their own. The tragedy in Palestine is not just a local one; it is a tragedy for the world, because it is an injustice that is a menace to the world's peace. -- Arnold J. Toynbee, 1968

It's a very popular myth that there was this vast empty space on the map that the Jewish refugees from WWII could occupy. The truth is that there were plenty of people aready living there, getting screwed over by the British Empire's form of Zionism.

(And indeed, the Jews have been victims in this too, a reasonable desire for a homeland twisted and warped by British and American politics, so that instead of slowly and peacefully building a independant nation, today the "Jewish homeland" is an unsustainable enterprise, existing only because of the support of the United States.)

One group is secular, democratic, multi-racial, and targets military targets.

Israel is Jewish state. Orthodox Judaism is the only legally recognized form of Judaism, and has considerable authority, with control over marriages, burials, and decisions over "who's a Jew". It takes great twisting of the language to regard that as secular.

It takes greater twisting to re

Because Intel went & built their P4 fab on illegaly expropiated land belonging to Palestinians ethnically cleansed from a village near Gaza .

& have made no offer to compensate those villagers even though as far as the Geneva Convention, the Hague Convenention, the IDHR & the UN are concerned, they (the former villagers) still own that land.

Because Intel went & built their P4 fab on illegaly expropiated land belonging to Palestinians ethnically cleansed from a village near Gaza .

& have made no offer to compensate those villagers even though as far as the Geneva Convention, the Hague Convenention, the IDHR & the UN are concerned, they (the former villagers) still own that land.

No mention of anyone but the Arabs in the 1916 Sykes-Picot agreement.

I challenge you to find a country where this is not the case.

I didn't make that claim. I refer you to my theory on the modus operandi of governments

I assert that if you have several bullies doing their thing in the schoolyard that if you are going to make a difference it makes sense to start with the biggest and meanest.

Critical analysis of American government does not mean:

American people are bad.
Other governments are good.

Another reason not to buy Intel chips.

Regarding Balfour Declaration (direct from Israel's own Jerusalem Post):

President Truman would later say that the US did not pressure any country to vote for partition. That statement, however, would seem to be based on an interpretation of pressure as gunboats or White House stationery. Two US Supreme Court justices, Frank Murphy and Felix Frankfurter, contacted the Philippine ambassador in Washington and sent telegrams to Philippine president Carlos Rojas warning that a negative vote would alienate millions of Americans. Ten senators also cabled Rojas. Presidential aide David Niles, Truman's channel to the Jewish community, contacted influential American-Greek businessmen in an attempt to persuade Athens to vote for partition. Unlike with the Philippines and Liberia, this effort was not successful.

[SNIP]

The voting was conducted by the senior American on the UN Secretariat, Andrew Cordier. When it was done he handed the tally to Aranha who studied it for a moment before announcing that the resolution had been carried by a vote of 33 for, 13 against and 10 abstentions. "I close the meeting."

So, after U.S. pressure to accept the Balfour Declaration it was passed with 33 of 56 (member nations) votes, 59%.

Let's see, U.N. resolution 42/159 states:

Reaffirming also the inalienable right to self-determination and independence of all peoples under colonial and racist regimes and other forms of alien domination, and upholding the legitimacy of their struggle, in particular the struggle of national liberation movements, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter and of the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,

This is apparently the reason that it was voted for by everyone except the USA and Israel.

While Intel has a fab on the ethnically cleansed land of Al Faluja I will never buy a Intel CPU or knowingly buy a product with any Intel parts in it.

Some may go on about the fact that AMD's fab in Texas is built on Indian or Mexican land, but those Indians or Mexicans weren't driven off while the Geneva Convention, Hague Convention, the IDHR or the UN exited.

The fact is that until Israel permits the return of Palestinian refugees (to both Rump Israel & the Occupied Territories) & returns all illegaly expropiated lands its in contravention of the Geneva Convention (A49P6), the Hague Convention (1906C), the IDHR & dozens of UN resolutions.

Now as Intel did not lease or purchase the land its Israeli fab is on, from the people with the internationally recognised legal title deeds to that land (Palestinian refugees mostly living in Egypt) its an illegal fab on ethnically cleansed land. So I'm not ever going with Intel.

BTW a good percentage, if not most P4s are made in that Israeli fab.