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This is why, even with the losses, using hydrogen for the battery makes so much more sense.

United Nuclear even came up with a good storage mechanism: http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm They run a (pretty) standard gas engine solely on the hydrogen for 100 miles+ and produce the hydrogen with electrolysis consistently at home, from whatever power source you hook into it.

United Nuclear has a working hydride solution (except the government freaked out and blocked them):

switch to hydrogen

Simple, low pressure tanks that use heat/cold to release/store the hydrogen....

Actually, there are other options besides liquid or gaseous storage. See what these guys are doing for a practical example.

From the people who brought you mail order polonium and other useful technologies such as portable butane bunsen burners, I proudly present http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

It should be noted that research in this field has been stunted by politicians on the left and right side of the aisle, and that is the actual reason why hydrogen research has been as far out of reach as it has been.

When I can't even buy chemicals for my chemistry lab without the BATFE knocking on my door, don't expect scientists to come up with great leaps of technology. Of course, most of us backyard chemists got poor press thanks to the radioactive boyscout.

Educating people is the answer, not banning everything in sight.

Has anyone been following this hydrogen hybrid project? http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ It's being run by some people at United Nuclear, a supplier of lab equipment and other science supplies.

It's a conversion system for existing cars to run on either hydrogen or plain gasoline. Most cars are candidates (high compression and turbo charged are not) so you don't have to worry about driving some cramped lunar rover. One of their test cars is a 2004 Mitsubishi Endeavor and the other is a 1994 Chevrolet Corvette. Their system uses solar panels to power electrolysis (one can also use wall power, wind turbines, you get the idea) and stores the hydrogen in a tank as a hydride. This gets around the problem that compressed H2 gas is not efficient and liquid H2 is cryogenic. They're claiming 100 miles per tank for one tank type, 75 miles for a smaller tank. Most cars need four tanks to run. It takes about 2 days to generate 75 miles worth of hydrogen. Not super quick but enough for most commutes.

They have run into a legal problem. I only know what's posted on the site, and that looks like it's a couple months old. I won't go into details here as it's a bit off topic but I encourage everyone to check it out.

bside

i thought most estimates were that Hydrogen would be a better 'storage medium' than batteries? For example, United Nuclear was developing a conversion kit that would convert any standard gasoline car to run on Hydrogen. (They put the project on hold due to supply issues, they say that the CSPC is trying to ban one of the chemicals necessary for their system.) But they got a Corvette to go 650 miles on one 'tank' of Hydrogen. (This is combusting Hydrogen, not turning it into electricity via a fuel cell.)

Sounds like it has at least comparable energy density to gasoline, when stored and burned this way. Yeah, fuel cells are inefficient, but it doesn't mean ALL Hydrogen systems are inefficient. This is also a system that just takes in water, slowly converts it to Hydrogen and Oxygen, then stores the Hydrogen in their special tanks. It can be powered solely by a solar panel, but it is slow, taking two days to generate enough Hydrogen to drive a couple hundred miles. So it would be well suited as a 'commuter car', but not necessarily for long trips. Of course, as soon as there are 'Hydrogen stations' that you could refuel at, that would change.

United Nuclear, everyone's favorite company, saves the day, again! http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ One load will get you 500 miles, and it comes free with a solar-powered hydrolysis machine. (Still in beta testing, not for sale...yet)

I might be inclined to belive that if the government wasn't actively trying to block the research and developement of Hydrogen based cars as witnessed here.

This is complete and udder fud.

fark.com listed these guys a few days ago.

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/
http://www.unitednuclear.com/legalaction.htm

Seems that some of the feds are worried that someone could make a bomb with the same fine metal particles that are needed to store hydrogen with any practicality.

Compressed hydrogen, liquid hydrogen, and hydrogen slush are just not going to cut it for a practical street vehicle.

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

United Nuclear's been working on a dual-fuel hydrogen/gas conversion kit for a while, now, and they've got it running, though it's not quite ready for the public yet. The actual work needed to convert is minimal, and the thing comes with its own generator station -- either plug-in or solar. Of course, it's pricey, but...*shrugs*

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ this is how.

As I know, hydrogen embrittlement effects steel. I'm not sure how it effects cast iron, forged piston heads, rings, or valves. I tried doing a search on google about this topic and found nothing in regards to long term effects on a standard engine block. I can only assume one of two things.

1. No information is available due to lack of study.

2. The hydrogen burns fast and clean and thus makes the issue moot.

I had the same train of thought and Googled around. Here's what I found:

1. While most articles mention effects on titanium, steel and aluminum alloys, only a few mention real world experience with typical autos.

2. Those with more experience with typical late model autos indicate hydrogen embrittlement problems.

Reference: http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

I hope this helps...

For some interesting reading on Hydrogen storage using a similar method to the Honda version (but w/o propane...) check out the Hydrogen fuel pages at United Nuclear (http://www.unitednuclear.com./ These folks seem to have been doing it for the last 10 years.....

Of course, they have also found some problems with long-term engine life for CONVERTED engines...

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm

-arg

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm

And power your home:

http://www.fuellesspower.com/

And why drive when you can fly?

http://www.fuellessflight.com/

..this neat conversion company!

Let's hope there will be more of them soon..

This is moving slightly off on a tangent from the question, but it seems worth saying: United Nuclear are currently working on a hydrogen conversion kit for various cars, and have apparently clocked 50,000 successful miles on their prototypes. Probably the kind of thing to take with a pinch of salt, and the estimated cost is $7-10k, but it will come with a solar powered hydrogen generator, so might be worthwhile.

I found this page a while ago. A page saying you can switch your car to run on hydrogen. I'm not sure if it is bunk or not. They claim to have over 50,000 trouble-free miles on their prototypes.

There is a high initial cost, but if you spend about $7000 on a system, and normally spend about $50 a week on gas, then it would pay for itself in less than 3 years.

So by your formula - solar production of hydrogen burned directly in a combustion engine, is almost equal to burning fossil fuels.

United Nuclear is developing a system that uses solar panels to produce the hydrogen via electrolysis - 8 - 2' x 4' panels is all you need for 1 car.
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

There is also a company based in England that has a direct solar to hydrogen panel that flows water through the cell and produces hydrogen.
http://www.hydrogensolar.com/basics.html

So please revise your calculations and factor in that the fossil fuel to hydrogen option is not the only viable option.

looks like somebody has made a bit more progress. http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

http://www.ohgizmo.com/2005/09/05/united-nuclears- hydrogen-fuel-systems/

second link pointing to the pseudo-science wizardry http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm/

According to it:

The system comes in two parts. First, you have the Hydrogen fuel system in your vehicle, and then a Hydrogen generating system that remains in your garage. The Hydrogen generator is either powered by solar electric panels or a wind turbine set-up, either of which makes Hydrogen fuel at virtually no cost. This hydrogen is then stored in hydride tanks.

The tanks are filled with granulated Hydrides, and Hydrogen is pressurized into the material. Hydrides have many advantages over liquid & gas. One is that the density of the Hydrogen stored in the Hydride can be GREATER than that of liquid Hydrogen. This translates directly into smaller and fewer storage tanks.

Once the Hydride is "charged" with Hydrogen, the Hydrogen becomes chemically bonded to the chemical. Even opening the tank, or cutting it in half will not release the Hydrogen gas. In addition, you could even fire incendiary bullets through the tank and the Hydride would only smolder like a cigarette. It is in fact, a safer storage system than your Gasoline tank is.

Then how do you get the Hydrogen back out? To release the Hydrogen gas from the Hydride, it simply needs to be heated. This is either done electrically, using the waste exhaust heat, or using the waste radiator coolant heat.

Our kits heat the Hydride tanks electrically, and as soon at the Hydride is sufficiently warm, Hydrogen is released from the tanks and the on-board computer detects the presence of Hydrogen pressure. The fuel system remains in "Hydrogen" mode until the tank pressure begins to drop. If the tanks run out of Hydrogen, the engine will seamlessly switch over to Gasoline, which enables the car to run conventionally until the Hydrogen tanks are refilled.

This has been done several years ago by United Nuclear (http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/). For a while they had a sports car of some kind running with this kind of system. Now they're testing to begin selling home hydrogen generation systems, and car conversion kits. They're in the final stages of fleet testing their systems now.