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(Whose operating system, licensed by "everyone" in the mobile industry, always has run on ARM processors ... )

_Working_ Bluetooth on Palm OS? We'll see about that ...

(There are pictures etc if you roam the site. The European version is being advertised heavily in Europe - it's really cool, and also runs the Epoc operating system from Symbian

Audio File WAV, AU, WVE
CompuServe GIF
Computer Graphics Metafile CGM
Corel/Novell Presentations SHW
EPOC Word -EPOC
Sheet -EPOC
Bitmap MBM
Internet HyperText Markup Language HTML, HTM
Lotus 1-2-3 v.1/2/3/4/5/97/Millenium WQ1, WKU, WK1, WK3, WK4, WK5, WK6, 123
Lotus AMI Draw SDW
Microsoft Excel 2/3/4/5/7/97/98/2000 XLS, XLC
Microsoft PowerPoint 3/4/7/97/98/2000 PPT, POT, PPS
Microsoft Project MPP
Microsoft Word 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/97/98/2000 DOC, WRI
Paintbrush PCX, DCX
PKZIP Format ZIP
Portable Network Graphics PNG
Rich Text Format RTF
Ringing Tones MG
Tagged Image File Format (TIFF, JPEG) TIF, JPG, JIF
Text TXT
UNIX Compress, Tar TAR, TAZ
UNIX Gzip TGZ
vCard VCF
Visio VSD
Windows Bitmap BMP, RLE, ICO, CUR
Windows Metafile WMF, EMF
WordPerfect 4/5/6/7/8 WPD

Calendar and contacts compatibility

Microsoft Schedule+ 7.x
Microsoft Outlook 97/98/2000
Lotus Notes 4.5, 4.6 & 5.0
Lotus Organizer 5.0, 6.0, 97, GS/4.0
SyncML


WOW...very impressive for a non-windows operating system on a phone.
Anyone know about this EPOC OS?
Found their homepage. It's a company called "Symbian". They also have a press release of their own.

NEET!


---

Audio File WAV, AU, WVE
CompuServe GIF
Computer Graphics Metafile CGM
Corel/Novell Presentations SHW
EPOC Word -EPOC
Sheet -EPOC
Bitmap MBM
Internet HyperText Markup Language HTML, HTM
Lotus 1-2-3 v.1/2/3/4/5/97/Millenium WQ1, WKU, WK1, WK3, WK4, WK5, WK6, 123
Lotus AMI Draw SDW
Microsoft Excel 2/3/4/5/7/97/98/2000 XLS, XLC
Microsoft PowerPoint 3/4/7/97/98/2000 PPT, POT, PPS
Microsoft Project MPP
Microsoft Word 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/97/98/2000 DOC, WRI
Paintbrush PCX, DCX
PKZIP Format ZIP
Portable Network Graphics PNG
Rich Text Format RTF
Ringing Tones MG
Tagged Image File Format (TIFF, JPEG) TIF, JPG, JIF
Text TXT
UNIX Compress, Tar TAR, TAZ
UNIX Gzip TGZ
vCard VCF
Visio VSD
Windows Bitmap BMP, RLE, ICO, CUR
Windows Metafile WMF, EMF
WordPerfect 4/5/6/7/8 WPD

Calendar and contacts compatibility

Microsoft Schedule+ 7.x
Microsoft Outlook 97/98/2000
Lotus Notes 4.5, 4.6 & 5.0
Lotus Organizer 5.0, 6.0, 97, GS/4.0
SyncML


WOW...very impressive for a non-windows operating system on a phone.
Anyone know about this EPOC OS?
Found their homepage. It's a company called "Symbian". They also have a press release of their own.

NEET!


---

Hmm, yeah, if the latest Java VM is ported to that platform. This is not always the case. For instance, it seems that Java 1.1 will be the only version supported by EPOC.

Wow, those pictures of the Quartz reference platform look awesome indeed. After looking at those, I'd love to have a combination cellphone/PDA running EPOC.

See Symbian's website for more info, or just browse around on Ericsson's for some pictures of the R380 smartphone running Epoc ... or look at the devices Motorola, Sanyo, Psion etc will release.

The future looks bright indeed!

• Later this week, Nokia will be introducing a new mobile phone that not only has the now-standard built-in Tetris game and GPS receiver, but also wireless voice-over-IP support and a built-in webcam for videoconferencing! (A friend of mine works on this project, which is how I know about it.)
• Also this week (I know, funny coincidence, but everyone's trying to get their new products out in time for the Xmas shopping season), Oster will be introducing new microwave ovens, toasters, and blenders with built-in Ethernet interfaces and firmware support for the new Linux Open-Source Kitchen Automation project (I forget the URL, but it's hosted at SourceForge). These devices will allow you to program and monitor your kitchen devices over your home LAN. They also have built-in webcams so you can watch your kitchen in action, from a much more intimate viewpoint than has ever before been possible (in the case of the blender, the cam actually views up from beneath the whirling blades).
• And speaking of intimate viewpoints, Symbian will shortly be introducing a new vibrator with a webcam built into the tip. Configure it with an URL to upload images to, and watch it go in and out, in and out...
• Lastly, Web monitoring company Keynote will be entering the consumer hardware business with a new PCI add-in board for better DIY monitoring of your own website. Just plug it in and the onboard webcam shows you the packets going in and out through your network interface.

1. You make a good point. But bear in mind that the GPL is designed to prevent this kind of fragmentation. How do you add extensions to the system? Eg. extra syscalls - you modify the source. It is GPL'ed, you have to GPL and release your source. Now any of your competitors have your extensions, and the right to include them in their version of the software. The GPL virus spreads. Yey! It certainly makes life more difficult. I could also argue that the big UNIX vendors may have learnt from their mistakes, and should realize that they make their money from hardware, and more software == more sales. But that is too utopian a vision.
2. However, if you are right, I would like to suggest that foo may be Symbian.

Go to Ericsson's site and take a look at this baby. Approx. 2x4 in for a *global* (Europe/US) GSM phone. If that phone had some of the functionality of a PDA, I wouldn't want anything else.

But hold on; what else do you need? a decent screen, an easy input system (e.g. Graffiti), a calendar, etc. Well, what if the screen and input part was a separate device, a "dumb PDA" if you will, about as big as that cell phone, but all the processing, memory, etc, were in the cellphone itself? So, e.g. you could have access to your calendar without the "dumb PDA" auxiliary device, but when you needed some better I/O, you could lug the tiny "dumb" terminal with you, or even use your laptop instead?

That's exactly the promise of Bluetooth: a "Personal Area Network", where naturally, the cellphone becomes the CPU (because more people are likely to lug around a cell than a Palm) and any other device (a PDA, a laptop, a printer, even your Casio wristwatch :-) are terminals to the data stored there. Nokia, Ericsson and Motorola will take us there; they are all part of the Bluetooth SIG, and they are behind Symbian, which will probably end up kill the Palms --better OS, better industry support.

engineers never lie; we just approximate the truth.

I find it very intersting that they say WAP is failing in the U.K. and Germany. This is where there ought to be the greatest demand for the services since cell devices are more ubiquitous and there has been strong industry support for it.

Everyone wants to wail about the patents and the proprietary cloning of web protocols -- which is valid. But the larger issue is the corporate cultural disonnect between telcos and web ventures. Telcos want control over everything on their networks. WAP pretty much gives it to them -- witness the limited service that they complain about in Australia. Also note that some french carrier recently lost a suit related to their attempt to limit web access to "approved" URLs! Clearly the telcos do not get it.

Except for NTT DoCoMo. They built out their network to support TCP and true web delivery. And it has been a complete, stunning success.

DoCoMo, and the relative lack of success of WAP services, underscore the severe limitations of serving web content to a cell phone. To me, the mobile web will have to wait for better cell nets, and for better mobile devices. (Go EPOC + Bluetooth!) Most of us will simply never need the web on our phones. In that respect, the freeprotocol.org folks have it right about the relative merit of simple messaging technologies in lieo of web services. The kinds of things that work in WAP can be done better with lighter weight messaging protocols -- as in Blackberry devices.

Try EPOC/ARM then - from Symbian. Built in MS-synchronisable Office and email progs. No Netscape but Opera is good enough. And has Java support.

How's this for a tasty (albeit expensive) "net appliance".

(There is life beyond MS and Linux ...)

Regards, Ralph.

I don't know anything about EPOC it may be as bad, but what I know about PalmOS makes me amazed at how stable the apps under it are. And it makes me lery of wanting to try to write my own!

EPOC (as far as all the press goes) is a fully moderm, 32-bit pre-emptive multitasking, multi-threaded OS. The OS is based around a tightly coded kernel, with a window manager (EIKON in the case of my Series 5) designed to run on top of it. The way I understand it, the window manager is easily changed (more on this later), but no manager other than EIKON is currently available. The OS has inherent memory protection, and I believe all of its predecessors did as well (16-bit Psion OS's). The result is a platform that is as stable as, if not more so, than Linux. I've heard tales of individuals not restarting their Psions for a number of years, and months is very common. Even with using a large amount of home-grown software (my own included), I have never had to hit the reset button to stop a rouge app. In fact, using the built in OPL interpreter, programming on my Series 5 is easy, and I have access to almost all of the system functions through API calls. There are very few things (multi-page dialogs for one) that aren't readily available to the home programmer. The only real problem I've seen with EPOC is that if an app dies horribly enough, there may be a slight memory leak. (can you tell I'm an EPOC advocate?)

As to the description of the OS, this reminds me a good bit as to the setup used in Linux. A tight kernel (that can have support for unecessary items left out at compile time), with a windowing system on top. I think that using Linix on a handheld device can be a Very Good Thing (TM), if done properly. The trick with using any handheld is that your apps come up quickly, and you don't have to fool around with the OS much unless you really need to. The problem therefore becomes a pure UI design issue. This has been discussed elsewhere on this page, so I will rant no longer.

You can check out more about the EPOC OS at: http://www.symbian.com

Mobile 'phones have already entirely replaced land lines for a few people I know, and have become the primary contact for many others. Around 40% of the UK population own a mobile phone, I believe Finland leads the world with over 70% usage. Extremely competative markets have put pricing within reasonable reach for many unemployed and students, even school kids. Mobile 'phones are sold in pre-packaged boxes in supermarkets.
Part of this is because most European telcos stopped charging the mobile 'phone owners for receiving calls quite some time ago. I understand that this still isn't always the case in the US?
In the UK, the coverage is very good in reasonably densely populated areas, and weak only in the very least densly populated areas of the country.
With upcoming technologies like GPRS and UMTS, mobile data will become a sensible proposition. Given that the mobile phone operators need to make 370UKP (about $590) profit from every man, woman, and child in the UK to just cover the costs of the recent radio-spectrum auction, you can bet that the companies will be heavily pushing products suitable for everyone, from accessing AOL and shopping channels to real-time video conferencing. You can also bet that the 'web pads' and the like, will be using CPUs from Transmeta and ARM, and hopefully those that aren't running EPOC will be running a free O/S.

Oh, forgot. Sony is also an Epoc licensee - and they make cool devices!

Go ARM!

Oh, forgot. Sony is also an Epoc licensee - and they make cool devices!

Go ARM!

Oh, forgot. Sony is also an Epoc licensee - and they make cool devices!

Go ARM!

I work for a Swedish company, although with the parent office in London. We also have such a clause, but it's interpreted like this:

* Whatever you produce on the company's equipment is theirs
* Whatever you produce using knowledge you've gained from your work and not publicially documented yet will be theirs
* HOWEVER! Whatever you do at home, in your spare time, using knowledge you've NOT gained using inside information, is YOURS

So, ok. I work for an operating system producer (no, not Microsoft .. Symbian, EPOC you know) - if I use the knowledge I have of features in a future release of Epoc to produce some shareware at home, that shareware won't be mine. If I do it using the publically available SDK, with knowledge described in the SDK documentation, on my spare time and on my own computer - it WILL.

I hope that helps someone :)

It's easy to write EPOC off, as its share of the PDA market is still pretty small (although it's quite high in the UK), but its inclusion in smartphones from later on this year could well see it being widely-adopted at that end of the market, with consequent "sudden" demand for compatible PDAs...

It's easy to write EPOC off, as its share of the PDA market is still pretty small (although it's quite high in the UK), but its inclusion in smartphones from later on this year could well see it being widely-adopted at that end of the market, with consequent "sudden" demand for compatible PDAs...

It's easy to write EPOC off, as its share of the PDA market is still pretty small (although it's quite high in the UK), but its inclusion in smartphones from later on this year could well see it being widely-adopted at that end of the market, with consequent "sudden" demand for compatible PDAs...

(On the Quartz DFRD - the version of Epoc that will replace your Palm or WindowsCE device in the future ;)

Quartz

It's not Microsoft that Palm should see as their major competitor, it's Symbian's EPOC system. Symbian's on a bit of a 'slow burn', but don't lose sight of the fact that all the world's largest cellphone manufacturers are lined up to put EPOC on their next-gen phones and phone/PDA hybrids before the end of this year, or the middle of 2001. While it's obvious to most people that current attempts at integrating cellphones and PDAs haven't been entirely successful (the Nokia 9110i is probably the best, but not entirely satisfactory as either a phone or as a PDA), the advent of devices such as Bluetooth headsets should really change that situation. Imagine something with the form-factor of a Palm Vx, running Symbian's EPOC, talking via Bluetooth to a headset, and via GSM to the phone and data networks, and the possibilities should become apparent... there are a hell of a lot of cellphone users out there; whoever conquers that market is practically guaranteed dominance in the 'traditional' PDA market.

Some of the proposed devices using it will resemble PDAs in one sense, but will be fully integrated with cell phones. As someone mentioned in a thread above this one, because the two functions of PIM and Cell Communication are complimentary, they are converging. Unfortunately, because this is happening faster in Europe than in the USA, we're not as aware of these developments, unless we're actively looking for them.

For a quick example: imagine being able to drop your PDA into your breast pocket, then clipping a small earphone/mic. to your ear. You say something like, "dial Mark Edwards" and it recognizes the voice command, fetches Mark's phone number from it's built in address book, and places the call for you.

To me, that dosn't sound like that same ole PDA. Until that time, I don't think I'll get any of the current generation PDAs. They're really nothing more than Exec/Geek badges of status and are more trouble than they're worth (to me, at least).

-- kwashiorkor --
Pure speculation gets you nowhere.

(I mean, who _wouldn't_ want to have one instead of two devices in the pockets? A Quartz WID with a Bluetooth headset is the #1 choice for the future here in Europe. I don't know how much of this info has leaked into the US ... )

It's C++ from the beginning to the end, and it's very cleverly written for speed and low memory print. It also has a unique way of handling faults - especially out of memory conditions, which means that application very seldom crash at all - you have to use that one for a while to really appreciate it :)

Epoc is also 32 bit all the way, and has low level support for everything you need to develop networking applications (everything is gonna be done wireless soon :)

I think the rumours about Nokia and Motorola using the Palm UI ontop of the Epoc core says a lot - no matter if they're true or not.

Psion began developing Epoc in the early 90's - this is not a new operating system. It's old, well understood, is written for low memory battery powered devices from the beginning - it's what we all want.

At least I want a Quartz device!

It seems to me that Slashdot is heavy on Palm/Transmeta/Linux news but very short on information from the Symbian group (Nokia, Ericsson, Psion et al). They've been developing WAP enabled devices based on the highly succesful and robust EPOC operating system for quite some time now.

Its interesting news to see Linux moving into a new area but in this sort of arena the current leaders live on the other side of the Atlantic, check out Symbian or Psion and A release from Nokia for an overview on the reasons for Symbian and the Bluetooth initative.

EPOC, the 32-bit OS for Psion PDA's, and soon for several mobile phones (such as Nokia) was written in C++, at least that's what their white papers claim (see www.symbian.com). Also the system API's are in C++. btw these PDA's also contain a JVM and can be programmed either in C++ or Java.

Anyway, there is a reason that PalmOS beat WinCE, and it wasn't necessarily the normal Microsoft bugginess. It was the fact that PalmOS just does what is needed, and doesn't have a bunch of extra fluff brought down from bigger machines. Would an embedded-linux be any different?

Part of the reason that WinCE does so poorly against the PalmOS has to do with its interface. A Start menu and desktop metafor simply takes up too much space to be useful on a small PDA screen. This is a separate (and IMHO more important) apart from bugginess or code bloat. Since Linux is at its heart a CLI OS, most processor cycles AFAIK are used up the X Window system and processes and services which would not be needed on a PDA and therefore would not need to be compiled.

I'm no Linux expert but my guess is that you can pretty much put up any interface you want on top of a slimmed down Linux kernel. Palm Computing for example is working with Symbian to run the PalmOS GUI on top of the Epoc32 kernel. There should be no reason, other than perhaps licensing, why someone couldn't do the same thing with Linux.

Similarly, it should be possible to create a webpad type device that would simply run Mozilla on top of a Linux kernel recompiled with only enough support for whatever was needed to run a browser plus wireless IR or radio support.

Palm has a huge momentum in the US, and in Europe there's no doubt that Symbian will rule the smartphone and handheld market completely. Looking at their website they have special made versions of the OS for many screen sizes and devices. It's only a question of _when_ those things will appear on the market. To get a brief hint on what's to come, look at how many awars the Psion Revo has won!

It will be very interesting to see an OS not really made to work on small devices compete in this arena. WinCE failed badly - PalmOS is doing quite well even though it's hardly a real OS, and the Symbian OS has been tailor made by first Psion and now Symbian since many many years for exactly this ...

Yeah, I have devices with WinCE, PalmOS and the Symbian OS ;) The MC218 (by Ericsson) is the one I use for my daily work ...

I expect Symbian to change all that though :)

But I agree, Epoc is an incredibly good operating system for handheld computers and smartphones. It will be interesting to see Linux competing in this arena.

************************************************ ***

************************************************ ***

Nokia, Ericcson, and Symbian and Palm all penned agreements to unequivocally ally themselves against Microsoft and Britsh Telecom.

I think Microsoft is shaking in their boots when they see a product like the Qualcomm PDQ and they contemplate what it would be like for their US smartphone marketshare to be similar to their PDA marketshare. EPOC32 has been available for some time in the US and it hasn't caught on nearly as rapidly as the Palm. I think Nokia's plan to wed the PalmOS to the EPOC32 kernel is genius.

I hope it will be enough to put the kibosh on Microsofts plans to ram yet another inferior product standard down the world's throat.

One interesting thing to note is that the biggest players in the cellphone market (Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola and Panasonic) are all pushing Symbian's EPOC32 as an operating system for PDAs and "smart" cellphones. These companies are also quite hefty players in the communications infrastructure market in Europe, and GSM is much more widespread here than in the USA (it's practically universal). I'd say these organisations are well set to deliver a serious integrated mobile-comms system, at least in Europe, in the near future.

Actually Psion's 5 & 7 range both support CF disks. Psion uses their own OS, called EPOC, and this OS is supported by most of the mobile phone manufacturers through an aliance called Symbian

Actually Psion's 5 & 7 range both support CF disks. Psion uses their own OS, called EPOC, and this OS is supported by most of the mobile phone manufacturers through an aliance called Symbian

Does anyone else get the impression that Microsoft has learnt something from the DoJ case? Namely, that driving their competitors out of business by using underhand tactics isn't such a good idea, and that it's easier (and probably cheaper, in the long run), to buy them.

STNC is a perfect example. This is a British company which is psrt of the Symbian Consortium which, of course, is supporting EPOC. STNC supplies browser technology to Symbian.

However, Microsoft has bought STNC, and it's not yet clear how long they'll continue supplying Symbian.

I'm trying to raise the subject with the Office of Fair Trading, here in the UK, in an attempt to get it referred to the Competition Commission, but I'm afraid it's too late.

And it's not just software companies. Microsoft's investments in cable TV companies and the like are part of a strategy to force more widespread adoption of Microsoft software, thus extending their monopoly beyond the desktop.

I think that Microsoft should be broken up into a number of seperate companies, including some sort of investment fund, to cover it's investments in other companies. Otherwise, it's in danger of becoming unstoppable.

D.
..is for Dangerous.

So, PalmOS has been licensed to Qualcomm. Wow.

It really dismays me sometimes how Slashdot has almost completely ignored Symbian's EPOC operating system, developed by Psion and now also part owned by the "big three" - Motorola, Nokia and Ericsson. With these behind it, do you think that CE, or even PalmOS for that matter is going to suceed in the mobile information device arena?

Take a look at Ericsson's R380 to see what a real smartphone should look like! :-)

Also stuff happening this side of the pond - EPOC based machines will be emerging in a number of guises as announced at CeBIT.
CeBIT: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/special/ 19symbian.html
Ericsson R380: http://www.symbian.com/co rporate/news/1999/pr990318a.html
Ericsson MC218: http://5alive.psionking.com/Ar chives99/Mar19_185.htm

Personally I'm waiting for the Psion 5 with Java, but the phones are interesting.