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Microsoft Pits Pocket PC Against Palm
DeepDarkSky writes "Microsoft unveiled the Pocket
PC today. Products being available by its partners include: HP Jornada, Compaq iPaq H3600,
Casio Cassiopeia E-105
and Symbol
PPT 2700.
Microsoft's touting it as being better than Palm.
Here's a list of features,
significant among them: Microsoft Reader
(for reading e-books), Windows Media Player
(for playing music), Pocket Streets
(a map program), Pocket
Internet Explorer, and "Pocket" versions of office productivity tools like Outlook, Word, and
Excel.
" Check out the preview on C|Net as well.
My company has around 10-15 Palm users out of 70 staff, 2 Psion users and 2 CE owners - of the CE users, one uses his device (a handheld PC with keyboard) regularly, and the other one has given up on his (a palm-sized CE device). All the Palms seem to be heavily used, and one Psion user has recently switched to Palm because it has better syncing softare. As a result, the sales department has now standardised on Palm's.
:)
The main reason seems to be that the Palm just works and is very simple to use with minimum effort - particularly if you sync it to a networked PIM such as Exchange. The long battery life is a key issue - my mobile phone is always running out of juice, but I've never been caught short with my Palm.
The Palm does occasionally crash, perhaps once every few weeks to few months, which is a pain, but only with certain third party applications. The last major crash I had was when I dropped it on a concrete floor, for which it can be forgiven I think!
Microsoft's Pocket PC comparison is very careful to say 'out of box experience' is compared - this is because there are third party applications available for most of the things that Pocket PC bundles, i.e. web browsers, email programs, Word/Excel viewing (or Excel editing for that matter), PDF viewing, street maps, and so on.
If Microsoft was charging the market price for this software, would it still be possible to sell these devices at the same price? Or is it using its deep pockets to fund entry into another market segment? For example, some of the packages above cost $50 or so on the Palm (the more complete ones - some are free or $10). Answers on a postcard to the DOJ, please
No. I want to have a single display device (probably similar to eyeglasses) which connects to my computing device using a standard local wireless network.
Most of all, I don't want a device which crashes even once, ever. I have work to do and fun to have; I don't want to be frustrated by my equipment. I don't want to curse Microsoft. It should just work.
This is why I had my company buy me a Palm instead of a ultralight.
Microsoft may be giving away its handheld devices along with MS Reader with the purchase of any new PC with Windows 2k preinstalled, or so I hear. These new devices can only transfer data to and from Win 2k. I hear that it will even be possible to rent books from your local library (which will be running a Win 2k network) in the MS Reader format, and that the books will automatically stop loading when the due date is reached, so that delinquent users will have an incentive to check them back in! (The library pays a fee per 2 week checkout period to MS for this service, with the book's author getting an royalty from EACH reader!) See, MS is not restricting, but enhancing, the flow of information, while also rewarding authors who have been poorly compensated by traditinal publishers in the past and improving our community infrastructure!
While the rest stand still, MS continues to innovate. MS has encouraged rapid growth of the Internet with its IE Browser giveaway - remember when browsers used to cost $30 or more? MS has given the world more free software than all of so called "open source" combined! It has truly democratized the Internet for millions of average people everwhere, so it is not just a thing for geeks to use to send cryptic messages in plain text back and forth to each other.
MS will never be heavily penalized by the US government! After last week's stock market scare, people all over are realizing that this was due to just one thing - a finding of guilt against MS. Investors feared that innovation would be stifled and that economic growth would stop if MS is handicapped by any kind of legal penalty for things that happened years ago, and rightly so! Bill Clinton and others got the message, and that gets passed along. The American public properly understands and appreciates the source of its prosperity, innovation deriving form Miscosoft.
Let this be a lesson to all who doubt!
And it's BRAND NAME RECOGNITION.
I always find these comparisons funny, because they never get to the root of the situation. Instead it's like jusification after the fact.
Palm is winning for the same reason that Windows won on the desktop, because everybody else has it.
The Palm was the first PDA that came out that let people synchronize up with their Outlook calendar, and later email.
It was the synchronization feature that sold everybody on the concept.
But it is the brand regonition that sells everybody on the Palm. WinCE synchs too, it is actually much superior to the Palm in this regard, but that doesn't matter.
Most of these devices are purchased by business people, executives, sales, etc. One thing that they all have in common is, they want to be the same as everybody else.
They buy the same brandname clothes, the same cars, the same everything. Being different is not a quality they admire.
Even if the PocketPC had been available in 1997 and I had showed it to those executives. They would have been clamoring for that Palm. And why? Because that's what Joe has over in accounting.
That is what meta-moderation is supposed to be for. Basically, to moderate the moderators to prevent abuse of the privilege.
Standard platform? And Palm doesn't? Palm provides programming information, development kits, ROMs, and lots of other stuff for developing software for the Palm platform - and not JUST for Windows, either. (And uCLinux has been ported to the Palm platform - so it's not like you can't develop alternative OSes for Palm, too...)
I think people's biggest gripe with WinCE/Pocket PC is that they're trying to cram EVERYTHING that you'd do on a regular desktop PC into a palmtop device, with no hard drive (can its OS be upgraded?), a small screen, no keyboard, and handwriting recognition that (from what I've been hearing) is highly inaccurate, at best.
I have (just this week) bought a Palm Vx. I couldn't be happier. It is simple, and fulfills all my needs. It's an electronic organizer - it's not trying to be a complete replacement for a regular computer. (Oh yeah - and it works with Linux, and Macs. Let's see you do THAT with a palmtop running WinCE...)
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Not likely to enrich our lives with fantastic new technologies, eh? Well, that's NOT what Palm is trying to do, and it's not what a palmtop is all about - what it's about is keeping it simple, doing the essentials without going so far overboard.
A word processor and spreadsheet in a handheld computer? (Without a keyboard, mind you!) How are you going to really make use of these apps? I wouldn't want to try to do serious word-processing on my Palm Vx - but then that's NOT what its Memo Pad is for, either. And trying to do real word processing via handwriting recognition would be such a pain, anyway.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
We ARE talking about Microsoft, after all. Never know what they'll do next to maintain control of The Almighty Platform(TM)...
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
PalmOS v3.3 supports HotSyncing via IrDA. (Probably 3.5 too, I'll bet.) And I don't know that a bigger display or USB support would really provide a quantifiable improvement to the product, considering its mission.
If Microsoft (and their pals) think all that bloat is needed, well, let them produce what THEY like; I'll stick to what I like, and what works for me.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
The PalmOS hasn't "improved" (i.e., changed) too much since, oh, v2.0, in terms of what you see and how you use it. (I only just bought a Palm Vx, but I've seen Palm/PalmPilot devices running PalmOS v2 and better.) But why should it? The guys who developed the Pilot/PalmPilot/Palm were going for simplicity, and trying to do what they wanted to do right the first time. I think that, for the most part, they have succeeded in doing it right from the beginning.
PalmOS improvements have been pretty much just incremental though. I think that says a lot for how well-designed PalmOS really is - they haven't had to add/remove a lot of stuff, because they THOUGHT CAREFULLY during the OS design! They considered ease of use, tap counts, and keeping things simple. They didn't get bogged down in adding every damned whizbang feature out there. (Which, far as I'm concerned, is where Microsoft is falling down - they seem to feel it necessary to try to stuff too many feaures into one device...)
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Shrug. If I want MP3s, I'll carry an MP3 player. Sometimes, one device for _everything_ isn't necessarily the best thing...
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Hahaha. Hope you carry plenty of spare batteries. Sounds like, as usual, the CE-based devices will be eating batteries for lunch.
Besides, how many MP3s will you really be able to fit on a unit like that at once? Not very many, especially not if you plan on using it for anything else other than MP3 playback.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Porting Linux to a toilet isn't expecting someone to buy an expensive device with crashy, bloated software on it. If someone wants to experiment on their own time porting Linux to all sorts of devices, it doesn't cost anyone anything, so I have no argument with it. But really, for a commercial device, the principle of "Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD" really applies more - trying to cram so much stuff in a device like that, and expecting people to put up with crashes and lousy handwriting recognition...
I mean, if someone can really make use of 'em, and they're happy with them, that's great. I hope they're happy. As for me, however, I don't need or want a device like that. A Palm, which does its job (and does it well, mind you), is just what I need.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
So, I bought a PalmIIIe last night. Finally, after using some of my friends just for their PDAs ;) I basically got sick of losing notes, writing on my hand, forgetting appointments, etc.. So, I did some research, and I decided on a PDA. I looked at the Cassios and the Compaqs, and basically everything else.
;) One of the biggest reasons I decided on the Palm was that it works with Linux. KPilot, JPilot, gnome-pilot - the list goes on and on. I downloaded some files last night, and had them up and running on the Pilot in the time it takes to compile JPilot. It's that easy.
I decided on a PalmIIIe. It's cheap, and it's got all the features I need, and more. I don't predict having to store 6000 addresses in the near future, so I don't really need the extra memory that the higher-end PalmIIIx/xe/c, PalmV or, or PalmVII provide. 2MB is enough. I don't care about OS upgrades, as long as the OS on the PalmIIIe is stable enough. It is.
Those aren't the only reasons why I got the PalmIIIe. I mentioned it was cheap - about $175 with a nice case and some "extras." The PDA itself is only $149. Nice for a poor Sys Admin
I've heard that the handwriting recognition sucks on the CE/Pocket PC machines. The Pilot is easy - easy to learn and easy to remember. I learned just about everything in 5 to 10 minutes. Help is easily available, and if it doesn't recognize your handwriting, just click on the "keyboard dot" at the bottom.
So, would I ever give up on the Pilot? Don't count on it. I've used (never owned) CE devices, and the Pocket PC OS is just an extension of CE, which is most likely (have to see the code...) just an extension of PenWindows. The Palm is easier and faster, and I'm already in love with it. I just wish it had shipped with a damned scientific calculator, although loading the GPL'd EasyCalc was painless enough.
So, like the CNet article says, Palm users, don't jump ship!
Perhaps the best thing that WinCE^WPocket PC will do is drive the cost down for high-powered portable hardware. Who says you need to run a Microsoft OS on a Pocket PC anyway? NetBSD/hpcmips already runs on most of the Pocket PCs...
Microsoft is spurring the market for smaller, faster, cheaper hardware. That's fine with me.
NetBSD: the cathedral vs the bizzare.
Okay, I think the whole thing is silly
PocketPC vs. Palm
There is plenty of room for both
quite frankly I would never dream of using my
Visor for say navigation (maps) web browsing
it is the perfect size for a PIM, I don't want
it to do anything else (except for playing Zork in class)
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is room between the PIM (Palm, Visor, etc) and Laptop, for a Palmtop/PocketPC/whatevertheyarecallingitnow
people who need something smaller than a laptop and don't care about the "fit in pocket"
(side note)
the army field tested some of the older WinCE units in their attempt to give the soldier more and more information, they got broken too fast
(end side note)
A Palmtop would be great for navigation/data entry stuff, where colors/more memory/built-in wireless would be required
Seriously, how long does one of these things last before it craps out?
I'm not that impressed with the HW specs. Granted, they seem impressive enough when marketing has compared it to the Palm. But! Unless the screen is around double the size of the Palm, the extra resolution will not earn much beyond more bloated graphics. So instead of a measly 100 bytes for an icon on the palm, we're probably talking about half a K for a monochrome image of the same size, and 4 K for a color image.
Not to mention that there are 4(64) times as much data to manipulate in the screen handling itself, which probably will make quite a dent in the difference between a 20 MHz dragonball and a 200 MHz RISC.
Not to mention the fact that a comparision in raw MHz is totally ridiculous between differenct CPUs. One of the nifty things about the dragonball is that it has 16 CPU registers, which reduces the need for memory access a lot. Somehow I doubt that the 200 MHz figure has any resemblance to the RAM speed.
//Wegge
That is not true for the Handspring Visor which comes default with a USB cradle.
--- Linux... a college project gone horribly right
The "feature" they're referring to is the USB Connection not the hotsync itself. This is correct. The current PalmOS Hotsync doesn't support a USB connection in Win2K. You must use a serial connection to the cradle. According to the palm.com site, this will be remedied in the next release of the software.
A Sony Vaio PCG505VX
Palm Vx
PalmPilot Professional (retired to a dev platform)
Sprint PCS Touchpoint phone
It's nice having a nice, small PDA to keep track of appointments, short notes, etc. on. I'm not sure I want to talk into them, but then again apparently a lot of people do (have you seen how many different voice recording thingies they sell at staples and CompUSA?).
Regardless, what I'd really like to see is my Vaio without the keyboard, with the screen melded onto where the keyboard is, keeping the extended battery, if necessary, and adding a lightweight folding cover (a la the palm vx's included shield carboard/pseudo-leather cover that slides into the left stylus slot). Add some handwriting recognition to that and a touch screen, and you've got me sold, up to about $1000. An actually paper notebook sized thing you can write on, transfer to your palm or desktop via the firewire or USB port that's already there, carrying a decent sized hard drive.
Sure, you can only use it for 4.5 hours (the vaio as it is today), but how often are you really keeping it on each day? Without keeping it plugged in?
See, PDA's are one thing, but if they want truly mobile solutions where I can really do "stuff" with this device, it needs to be bigger, not smaller. (ever try to take meeting notes with a Palm without a keyboard?).
Sujal
politics, food, music, life: FatMixx
This lousy, crashig device is huge!
Of course, their first choice was such a rip-off of Palm's trademark that they got taken to court...
Regards,
Regards,
-scott
Well, there are web browsers for the palm pilot. www.proxinet.com, www.avantgo.com, and handweb(don't know the url off-hand) just to name a few.
--
--
#include <malloc.h>
free(your.mind);
I lend books and rarely get tham back cos who really cares given that that the book costs 5 squid and I have read it already ... :-)
Not the same with lending your pda ...
I wouldn't worry about it. Someone will eventually crack the copy protection and allow free distribution. it's just a matter of time.
-- Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
I sync my pilot to outlook... it's great.
-- Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
blinkBlink?/blink
--
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
16 bit color? or 16 colors? big difference (orders of magnitude). all the 'color' ones i've had to support did 16 (well, 15) colors.
To quote another post, "just because it's possible, doesn't mean you should do it."
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
This is just hyperbole, right? You can't be serious. HotSync is just a standard serial connection. The client software deals with the data internally after it gets it from the serial buffer.
To break this, they'd have to break serial data communication completely. On second thought, I guess you were serious. :)
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
PocketPC has better email than Palm, but that doesn't count because you don't think retrieving email on the go is important. Thanks for misstating me. I stated that while I don't retrieve email with my Palm there is an add-on product which allows you to do it (Multimail Pro) and also pointed out, rightfully, that the product provided (Pocket Outlook) is based on a product which isn't rated that highly by people using it so that consumers of this product will most likely look for add-on products for decent power in that realm anyway. This was to stress that Microsoft was weighting the comparison by purposely excluding add-on software. PocketPC has better color than Palm, but since you spend all your time outside, you don't care. Color is known to have a problem in sunlight. Someone who is "on the go" as you cite above is going to encounter sunlight quite a bit. If they aren't on the go then they are most likely at some other point where they can access their email. PocketPC has more memory than Palm, but "something tells you" that it doesn't matter. This was a joke based on the well known fact that Microsoft produces bloated software. I don't know about you, but I do consider a few hundred meg install of an office suite of applications bloated and mostly waste. I doubt you'll find many people who will disagree with either of those statements. You are aware of what a joke is, right? PocketPC is about 10x faster than Palm, but you have a feeling that this is irrelevant. Anyway, 20MHz is enough for anyone. What drives the need for faster CPU power in the consumer market are games and multimedia applications. Remove the MP3 support (Rio) and the games (320x240 games don't appeal compared to my 1024x768, 32bit color games at home, sorry) which require the horsepower and you don't need a 206Mhz processor. The fact that the Palm does quite well on a 20Mhz processor bears that out. You also have to remember that the speed needs to be there because Microsoft flat out doesn't know how to code tight code so looking at the pure numbers is misleading. PocketPC doesn't require extra attention to sync, but that doesn't count because the buzzname they're using resembles a technology you don't like. Uh, no, I was pointing out that the main point was that they were worrying about a button press. A single button press. "No need to press a button!" I'm sure the people with pinky strain out there will thank them. The rest was sarcasm, another form of humor, aka, joke. PocketPC has more sophisticated handwriting recognition than Palm, but that doesn't count because it's completely reasonable for people to learn how to write twice simply in order to use a PDA. Really? Did you read the review provided? Two top problems with the Pocket PC, crashes a lot thanks to the multimedia and handwriting recognition. Palm decided not to try for complete handwriting recognition because it hasn't been perfected yet. Instead they created a subset that is easy for the Palm to recognize and that is easy for humans used to the English alphabet to use. The result is a very low learning curve to fast entry. Microsoft went the marketing route and failed. It isn't more advanced. PocketPC allows voice recording at no extra charge, but that doesn't count because you can't imagine anyone will ever want to record sound in a meeting. With 32Mb to work with they can't record as much as they could on the little tape recorders that have been around for years. The propaganda said to record your thoughts at any time, not a meeting. Me, I'm content to write the thoughts down. Shall we compared file sizes after that? What is important is the content, not the medium. PocketPC has superior and more intuitive mapping technology, but that doesn't count because real men use astrolabes. No, Pocket PC propaganda states that mapping software on the Palm is limited by the display. I pointed out that the display hasn't been an issue for years on dedicated GPS units which have smaller displays than the Palm if I'm not mistaken. It doesn't take a huge display with thousands of colors to draw some lines and some text. PocketPC has better music support, but that doesn't count because everyone should have at least two wallet-sized silicon devices on them at all times. Who here doesn't? Pager, Cell Phone and Palm. Most professionals I know have two of the three. Also you completely ignored my point that the Pocket PC at 32Mb is dwarfed by the Rio which can pack in 96Mb. 1/3rd the size, 1/3rd the music. Of course, anyone with a Pocket PC is not going to dedicate that entire 32Mb to just MP3s the way the RAM in the Rio would be. That means even less music. 3-4 songs would be about the max... maybe 5. Compared to ~24 songs on the Rio. 5 songs is barely enough music to get off the runway on your average business trip. PocketPC incorporates ClearType to a better eBook experience, but that doesn't count because, hell, it's all just text. Not to mention, IIRC, ClearType isn't a Microsoft invention in the first place. No, it doesn't count because it is just text. What is more important to me when it comes to "etext" is the fact that I can search. I've got the Perl Desktop Reference in my Palm because of the search. The text is readable, I can find what I need, I can read it. I don't need perfectly rendered letter to recognize it. Most people don't, either. PocketPC supports more sophisticated games (I've seen a cutesy little DOOM) but that doesn't count because you've got pong when you need it. Zap2000! is hardly Pong. Furthermore Doom is 10 years old, been done and I doubt is going to be decent on the controls given. Let's see, 4 directions, fire, strafe, use. Of course you need at least 2 directions, strafe and fire to play that game effectively. No, Doom was there and mentioned in the propaganda because it is the most popular PC action game in recent years to the crowd they are selling to. "I can play Doom on this?" *eyebrows shoot up* "Wow!" I read this a different way: Both play games from years ago, get over it. No, the whole point of my post, which you missed, was that the Microsoft comparison contains pretty much nothing but non-issues when you really look at it. They tilted it their way, of course, and made up things as they went. A little investigation would show that most are non-issues or pure fluff to begin with. Typical Microsoft advertising.
-- Grey d'Miyu, not just another pretty color.
Great, nice bug there. That was posted HTML formatted with proper formatting. :/
-- Grey d'Miyu, not just another pretty color.
With bluetooth coming our way, this is the future. You won't even need line of sight, as you do w/ IR - just 10 foot proximity. Just extend this to the abstraction layer of the high-speed data bus for things like displays and storage devices. With bluetooth (or a similar system) properly implemented, you would create the computer dynamically just w/ proximity. Just think: an upgrade could be as simple as buying a new part and telling the rest of the parts about its existance.
I OWN one of these supposed Palm killers. It still has one fatal flaw... IT RUNS WINDOWS CE! CE sucks in every way. I can whip up a program for the Palm in 10 minutes, and teach someone how to program the Palm in about 1 week. Winodws CE? I need to buy $1600.00 worth of software to compile the programs, and the HAL is so fscked up that 90% of good programmers out there will just give up. Journada has 30 times the processing power that my Palm IIIx has yet it's at least 3 times slower. I like the color screen, the CF slot and the sound (mp3) capability and I really wish palm would add a CF slot to the palm. (PLEASE PLEASE palm, dont use that crappy smart media crap!)
Palm killer? no way, not a chance, my palm pilot get's used, and the Journada sits on my desk.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Over the years, I've had a Palm Pro, then a Cassiopedia E10, then a Palm III. I happen to like Palm Pilots better because I can develope for them without paying up the wazoo.
But the MS Office interoperability with the CE devices is just awesome out of the box. The CE device RASs into your PC--it's not a sync kind of thing. So then you can drag and drop things back and forth onto it's "hard drive" kind of thing.
Thus in a business environment where the business has a lot of MS Office type products, the CE device is extremely useful and you get more bang for the buck than with the Palm Pilots.
This new CE version looks to make that even better.
Will it eclipse Palm Pilots? Probably not. Mostly because the two really have different customer bases. Palm Pilots for tinkerers and laymen. CE devices for business folk who already rely heavily upon MS product lines.
/will
Yes, except that this time Palm controls the Majority OS (along with Visor). So MS can "integrate features" as much as they want. Netscape was displaced mainly because of the fact that it was included with windows. (And later versons crashed less.)
So this time Palm has the upper hand because they have the major market share AND the OS control in this case. I am not saying that it would be impossible for MS to do this, but their track record with WinCE has not been good so far.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
I received two unsolicited emails from Microsoft today. Both to "decoy" email addresses. On two previous occaisions, in order to download critical Windows 95 updates (one of the the Y2K update!) I had to provide an email address to them. I never gave my permission to send me any kind of email (certainly not advertisements).
What is worse is that they instructions for unsubscribing are difficult to follow.
It find it funny they'd send me an ad for WinCE. I already own a WinCE device (A sharp tripad), and a Palm Pilot (IIIx). I use the Palm Pilot everday. I use my tripad every day too... guess which one crashes every half hour?
I had hold of an iPaq just yesterday. No way is it 3.1 times bigger than a Palm V. It's a bit over 6 ounces, where I believe the V is 4 ounces. And its dimensions are only slightly larger. The iPaq lacks the cool slot for adding flash memory, alas. But it's quite small and light. I'd say it's reasonably competitive with the Palm V, and a distinctly better value than the Palm IIIc, their color model.
Hiawatha Bray
Tech Reporter
Boston Globe
The thing I really liked about Windows CE was the fact that it was probably the most stable OS that ever came out of the Microsoft stable.
Huh?
They admit that Windows is crap.
If Windows CE is the most stable OS from M$ then I fear the worst.
I've seen Windows CE crash several times.
My Palm never crashed.
The only reason WinCE exist is to give mobile users the same functionality as desktop users like system crashes and protection errors.
The PalmOS is next to very stable also very open.
Everything you want to know about the PalmOS is available.
And there are tons of Palm emulators available for almost every OS on the market (Linux, MacOS, Windows, BeOS etc..).
I've never seen a WinCE emulator for MacOS or Linux.
Why, because it is not "open".
Well I guess that just means that if you use Netscape then Microsoft doesn't want your business
The problem with Microsoft's offering in the handheld market is emphatically *not* that they give the consumer too much. The problem is that they aren't delivering stable lean software. Microsoft incorporates into the Pocket PC's many of the things that ultimately I dream of using in my PDA. They are *far* ahead of the game technologically speaking. But their implementation sucks (at least it did in WinCE, and the C|Net review suggests it still suffers from those problems).
I agree with your dream for the future of handhelds. However, there is also reality to deal with. Whatever it delivers, it must be in a fast, slim package. And, if it doesn't deliver something genuinely useful, it won't be worth much. Thus, boring as they are, contact lists and appointments are very important to provide.
I don't credit Microsoft for being "*far* ahead of the game technologically speaking" in this case. Not yet, at least. They will get that credit if the package they are providing turns out to have high utility. If, as you claim, their impelemntation sucks, then I would say they missed the boat, technologically. Palm and others could easily have produced similar, overstuffed and sluggish products. But, they apparently recognized that we are not yet there technologically to produce the whole enchalada in a fast, slim package. If Microsoft has actually done this, then kudos to them. They should sell like hotcakes!
I couldn't agree more. If there's one thing that I've learned from my Palm, it is that you can't just take any application from the big desktop and slap it on a PDA without considering the small size of the screen. For some applications, the tiny screen isn't a problem.. and things can be designed so that there will be few problems.
Other things, however, are just now suitable for a PDA without major reworkings in design. Consider, for example, the spreadsheet I have on my Palm (TinySheet) - with a small display, it is an absolute ass to use, when you can have at most 5 cells visible horizontally..
Considering the enormous respect I have for the design abilities of Microsoft ;), I don't think I'll be giving up my Palm anytime soon.
If you want all of this now in a reliable package Psion have it. Full compatibility with Word, Excel etc. A full Java 1.1.4 runtime so a Full Web browser. Never crashes, boots in milliseconds.
Maybe, but they really are only pitching it to people using MS applications; something I didn't realise when I got mine. The file formats are still pretty mysterious, despite some fine reverse-engineering efforts, and you have to pay them for the latest version of their link software, which I presume is only bugfixes against the really appalling PsiWin 2.1 which they ship with it.
Currently I'm waiting for a Palm IIIx to be delivered after buying it off a guy on Ebay-- the hackability factor, the huge wealth of free software for them (compared to EPOC), and better linkage to Linux has sold me on one, despite the fact that my Psion is faster and has a slightly posher-looking OS. Maybe I'm in a tiny minority here, but I reckon Symbian might lose more customers this way.
Matthew @ Bytemark Hosting
I'd really like to see a PDA with Quickwriting from Ken Perlin.
Check the Java demo of how it works here.
Also, check this picture of an addon to Palm VII!
Damn cool!
--
GroundAndPound.com News and info for martial artists of all styles.
This new 'graffiti' from NYU is done by Ken Perlin (fron Perlin Noise fame) and it's absolutely fabulous. It's called Quikqriting. Can't wait to use it. Check it here: http://www.mrl.nyu.edu/perlin/ demos/quikwriting.html
--
GroundAndPound.com News and info for martial artists of all styles.
..."it's reported that the new OS runs more than twice as fast on the same hardware."
HAHA!!! That's funny.
Lets compare:
Pocket PC: 32MB RAM 200MHZ
Palm: 8 MB RAM 16MHZ
to do the same thing. crap*2=crap
That's priceless. Thanks, I needed that.
Seriously, if MS would only follow their tactic of 'embrace & extend' they could eliminate PalmOS in about a year.
If MS introduced a CE device that could run any Palm *pdb *prc and offered a few extended features like hi resolution color and sound, they could a) lure people from the 'scary' palm world to the 'safe' MS world, and b) lure developers to use the cool MS APIs for sounds graphics etc.
I don't want a Palm PC. I want a simple extention to my existing PC. This is something MS isn't catching on to. Also the 6 week battery life of my Palm III is pretty nice. Also, I don't want Word attachments on the email I get in the office, -much less on my PDA!
-Scott scott@surrealistic.org
>No Windows 2000 support as of this writing.
Oh, dear. That means that the huge crowd of people walking out of Best Buy with W2K tucked under their arms is really, really, really going to be disappointed when they get home and find out that their Palm Pilots aren't supported.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
It's a 'Pocket' bloated piece of shit, YES, JUST WHAT I ALWAYS WANTED. A way to carry shit in my pants conviently and easily! EXCELENT
(note: I really don't spell good, and I'm fine with that, are you?)
The one gripe I've had since the begining (PalmOS 1.0 days) is that almost all the input is done at the bottom of the screen but the menus popup at the top. I hate having to move all the way from the very bottom of the screen to the very top to use the menu commands.
Not much point in ranting anymore it's something that's so entrenched it's not going to change. Maybe someday I'll get around to writing that hackmaster hack to fix it...
I thinks MS learned more than you think, this time around. It's their 3rd try, and so far, I've never heard the new PDAs crash. Perhaps the reviewers had the old the models with the new Firmware, which is why the crashed? Incidentally, I my cassio crashes as much as my Palms did. Maybe less, even. But it sure as heck does 100 times as much. Last I heard, the Palm couldn't play the Star Wars trailer on MPEG. :)
Real-time Collaboration Consultant
Seeing how the Palm does great Wireless networking (802.11b) -- (yeah, right) and how great the Web capabilities are, I think one offers more than the other.
Real-time Collaboration Consultant
MS wound by buying Parasign (i think?, sp?) outright, so they integrated that recognition, which is really good. Also, some company ported the new handwriting recognition developed by NYU to CE. Should be available soon. It's a single stroke writing style, very interested, should be much faster than grafiti (Sp?).
Real-time Collaboration Consultant
They already have both Linux and xBSD running on these things, so the new ones should be able to run these as well, if that's what you want, of course. But then you would also need to create some sort of handwriting recognition for Linux! :) So I suggest you start coding now...
Real-time Collaboration Consultant
All jokes about the name Win CE (a.k.a. "wince") aside, I was surprised that CE didn't do better in the market.
Now we see it resurrected with a new name. It'll be interesting to see how it does, especially with Palm's extensive user base.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
www.fogbound.net
You must have used an older generation Newton (OMP, MP120/130). In the final version (MP2000/2100) with OS 2.1, they finally got the HWR right. Once the Newton gets used to your handwriting (that's right, the software accommodates you, not the other way around), you can easily get 90-95% accuracy, and fast, too. Unfortunately, the form factor sucked, so I sold my 2100 and I'll probably be getting a Vx in a month or so, with quikwriting installed until Calligrapher (the same engine used in the Newt, IIRC) is ported to Palm. You just can't beat the Vx in terms of functionality for the size.
The other important question would be if Linux can communicate with it?
or other versions of CE?
see topic.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
There's a little system extension called "MenuHack" which allows you to click on the title bar of the app (if it has one) to bring up the menu. That's the only metaphor from the windows interface that frustrated me when working with PalmOS, and it took me no time flat to find a fix for it. Check your local PalmOS shareware site!
s/[BW]ill(y|iam)?( H\.?)?( G(ate|8)(s|z))?(,? ?v?(III|3)(\.\D)?)?/Girly-man/gi
You say this as if browsing the web in 240x320 is all that much better? Lets face it, any palm-sized platform is going to be unsuitable for browsing the web in any real sense. And no matter how high we drive the resolution, the only thing that will do is make the text crisper, not allow us to put more text on the screen. A two or three inch square just isn't big enough. Would you think its practical to read a newspaper if it was delivered in paperback format?
Clarity of the image is the most important factor in choosing a device. Resolution helps, but other factors are just as important... like brightness and sharpness of an image. In all fairness, anyone who's seen it says the Palm IIIc beats all of the competition hands down in those categories.
s/[BW]ill(y|iam)?( H\.?)?( G(ate|8)(s|z))?(,? ?v?(III|3)(\.\D)?)?/Girly-man/gi
This is wonderful---all the Palm spin in one place. But we're (mostly) Linux people, right? Aren't we immune to software marketing spin? After all, much of the following sounds strangely familiar...
Those are all great arguments against Linux as well.
OK, on to some better ones.
OK, now on to their evaluation questions. I'm going to divide up Palm operations into three notional organizations. Palm-HW builds the Palm-branded hardware like the Palm V. Palm-Opsys implements PalmOS...and also the applications bundled with it, like Address Book. Palm-Desktop builds the PC/Mac software that works with the device.
I'm going to elide the feature list because they seem to be going for parity with CE rather than superiority.
Jay
The article admits numerous times to NEVER having seen a PocketPC device and quotes Palm heavily. If we've seen a pro-Microsoft article in this fashion it'd be screamed at for FUD.
It's just not fashionable to point out FUD that's not written for MS.
forget that cheap part, Wince machines cost 2-3 times a much as a palm.
--
+&x
dang, I coulda sworn I paid $219 for my IIIx. But I guess some people can't read a phonebook or a calendar without 65K colors.
--
+&x
Check out yopy.org. other links include
slashdot1
slashdot2
and about 5 others on yopy.org
Brief run down of yopy specs...
Key Features
Internet & E-mail Access with Mobile Phone or Wireless Modem
MP3 player, Voice recording, MPEG Moving Picture, Graphic game
Strong CPU of High Performance
PIMS, Dictionary, Calculator, Word pad, World time, Alarm, etc.
Color TFT LCD Display
Handwriting Recognition S/W
Technical Specifications
206MHz ARM RISC microprocessor
3D Sound Stereo Audio CODEC
MP3 Player, Voice Recording, Alarm
4.0 inches True color TFT LCD (65,536 color)
CCFL Back light
1400mA Rechargeable Li-lon Battery
Size(H x W x D): 128.8 x 83.5 x 22mm
RS232C & USB Serial port
CompactFlash(TM) Slot
IrDA Standard included
Audio In/Out Jack
Front-view Speaker
Basic Accessories
Cradle for Recharge & Sync. to PC
Serial(RS232C & USB) Cable
Stereo Remote Earphone
Installation CD
User's Guide
Processor on the Jornada is different, but other features are the same
The Compaq offers Wireless lan...wonder if it'd work in a yopy...the casio looks remarkably likle the yopy
Looks like the casio may be using the same Hitachi cpu as the Jornada...similar specs
The compaq iPaq h3650 is so similar to the Yopy, I bet they just redid the case...and not even very much. Even the processor is identical. Looks like Gmate is gonna be bringing in the bucks.
I think that this could get interesting very quickly with linux and windows coming out on these at the same time.
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
>Sony will replace their remote controls with a PalmOS device ...
:) I've actually had people pick up and start *using* the pronto thinking it *was* a palm, until they realize that my entertainment center is "going nuts". :)
Have you seen the Philips Pronto? Everytime I sit it next to my palm, I swear I'm seeing twins.
Even CNET advises to be prepared for some crashes. I can't think of a single time my Palm Personal has crashed, other than the times I've dropped it accidently.
Hmmm... I've had to use a paperclip to reset my Palm Pro more times than I'd care to admit. As ever, it all depends on what you're running on the device.
Frankly trying to shoehorn Windows onto a handheld is about as useful as putting Linux there.
It's not Windows; it just supports a cut-down subset of the Windows APIs. Biiiiig difference there.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
BTW folks, this is the first device to be released with ClearType. Anyone got one so that they can review it? Is it truly as innovative as everyone claims?
Simon
ps. Yes, I've seen ClearType, but I used to work @ Microsoft so I wanted a 2nd opinion.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
From the FAQ: "Neither rain nor snow nor heat nor gloom of night will keep you from accessing your e-mail."
:)
So, uh, where do I write when I bring it out in the storm?
okay, so we've got mediocre hw recognition, crashes frequently, runs out of memory (even w/a 16MB footprint), chews up batteries, and has limited support for wireless communication. this is supposed to be the saviour vs. palm? you've gotta be kidding. i'm on my third palm, still at 2MB and still haven't had a crash yet (well, except for some of my own less than sterile code anyway) nor run outta memory. and freeware development tools to boot.
At the very least they could have included a feature to let you "give" an e-book to someone else, deleting it from your machine in process. It wouldn't be much more (if any more) susceptable to abuse than the current no-transfer system which the copyright owners seem to be okay with. It would seem the only "advantage" is that you have to buy the book if you want to read it, no more used or borrowed books. Which is, of course, the whole point of eBooks as far as publishers are concerned.
...no kidding.
I remeber seeing a very fancy and visually appealing commercial for an HP business PC. I had a cool, Mortal Kombatesque flavor to it.
As a shau-lin (sp?) monk faught off an evil-doer in the nether-realm, you hear, "The HP whatever business PC, featuring the unstoppable Windows NT operating system, which detects problems and knocks them out." How does this make the HP PC any different from a Yugo with a pentium in it?
>I have a palm V, which is what I want. I want >something to keep addresses/phonenumbers >/appointments in, and it has to fit in my >pocket.
Wow... I have a little pocket organizer that does the same thing that costs about $50... so what then do *I* need a PalmV for?
http://www.laural.com/
For a group that generally likes open standards, I'm a little surprised by the response. Microsoft has written a little OS and outlined a standardized platform to be made by multiple hardware manufacturers. And it is being manufactured by several other respectable companies. This is a GOOD THING!
Palm is a proprietary, closed OS AND SYSTEM, that forces us to buy hardware from a single vendor. What we should want is hardware which permits Linux or PicoBSD or something similar. Something with a standard platform that multiple vendors can build to. Once we have a standard platform, provided it is open, and not overly tailored to WinCE, we put free OS's on them, and take over. Maybe even convince the hardware vendors to help. MS abusing their platform vendors only helps!
We can't let the well evolved, and well founded mistrust of MS get in the way of open standards, and the development of new markets for Open Source operating systems, however small they might be.
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes "Who Keeps the Keepers Themselves" ~ Juvenal
I am suprised that no one has mentioned the superior products offered by Psion - is this Not Invented In USA syndrome striking again?
Thinking alters Thinking.
Nothing on color screen is readable in direct sunlight. My libretto can't show shit in those situation. And that's active TFT. Gameboy kind of b&w is much better. I won't use pda while walking though.
/_____\. .......|
CY
vvvvvvv../|__/|
...I../O,O....|
...I./
..J|/^.^.^ \..|.._//|
...|^.^.^.^.|W|./oo.|
According the latest rumor, Microsoft will release a PocketPC handhold organizor with every copy of windows 2000 perfessional edition. Comsumer will pay a new price of $700 for the operation system.
/_____\. .......|
when ask about the 500 dollar price increase, an anonymous Microsoft staff point out, it's the development cost of the revolutionary device knowen a PocketPC that is directly embeded to the file manager of Win2000. When ask why a physically separated device is an inseparable park of the OS, the about manager hand out a VHS video tape showing how a win2000-installed PC frequently blue screen (TM) if not "ActiveSync" with the said PocketPC device 3 times everyday.
CY
"Microsoft ME! Microsoft ME! PLEASE!!"
vvvvvvv../|__/|
...I../O,O....|
...I./
..J|/^.^.^ \..|.._//|
...|^.^.^.^.|W|./oo.|
Remeber how M$ wanted to use wince for set-top boxes?
they'd probably need to branch it and call it TVPC or some crap like that...
...this. I think it's interesting that MS are diversifying so obviously. Are they concerned about the PC market?
gribbly.
maybe
Addendum to user manual: Feature set XAA001: Pocket BSOD Unlike the Palm, The Pocket PC has full parity with Windows(TM) and even features a slightly enhanced Blue Screen of Death! Instead of Ctrl-Alt-Del, you can mash the tiny buttons on the Pocket PC or you can press down firmly on the LCD until the unit reboots!
-----
Linux user: if (nt == unstable) { switchTo.linux() }
Those who laugh at you for you having a Mac.. are the people who constantly call you to fix their PC.
Sure we all want all the wiz bang stuff but only if the hardware can handle it. Who want to surf the web on a tiny screen where the banner ads will take up 90% of the screen space and the text is barely readable.
Who want to download MP3 files or streaming multimedia over a 14.4 modem that costs an extra $150.00
Oh yea who want to pay almost $800.00 for that privledge?
Honestly this product is severely overpriced and not suitable for the task it is being asked to do.
War is necrophilia.
Synchronization
Pocket-PC:
Fast, continuous
and automatic with
ActiveSync.
Palm Products:
HotSync - must push
button.
That does it, I want one.
--
Patrick Doyle
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Someone will come out with a Gameboy type Palm
:)
Been done for a year. It's called the Cassiopeia E105. It is a WinCE 2.11 PDA with a gamepad, and it runs the Gameboy Color emulator beautifully (been playing Zelda Color for a while on it, it's even better than a real game boy
Don't forget it has a compactflash port (Type II on many of these devices). It takes all CompactFlash memory card (up to 192 MB), plus the 340 MB miniature hard drive from IBM (soon 1 GB version will be out as well). Try doing that with your weak Palm Pilot :)
It is even better than Grafiti : letters drawing is closer to the way you draw them naturally, also you can actually SEE what you draw (since you draw on the screen, not an off-screen surface like Palm).
Also the Help is really cool with Jot, as it shows you clearly how to draw everything.
My Cassiopeia batteries last 6 hours of straight use. And it plays MP3, MPEG, does display full city maps, let me browse the web (not just with Avantgo but real browsing on real WWW site), etc... there's a reason why they changed the name to PocketPC : it IS a Pocket PC, not just an advanced calculator like the Palm.
But then can you have both the MP3 module and a compactflash module at the same time ? at least on the WinCE machines everything is already in the PDA, you can have it all at the same time (and for cheaper than an Handspring with all the necessary ad-ons).
I've on me a cell phone and a PDA, plus my wallet, a digicam and bunch of papers I need. Now if I can save on the MP3 player I find it great. If I can also have later on the cell phone into the PDA I'll be the first to buy it.
You are right that one device for everything is usually not the best solution, but you forgot one thing : when it must be a portable device, integration (==weight and size reduction) is a real bonus.
But what good is a 340 MB microdrive if PalmOS doesn't handle MP3, doesn't handle more than 256 colors and has a ridiculous screen resolution ? Store your girlfriend phone number ? You can probably plug a RAID 5 storage array into any Palm with some hack. That doesn't make it usefull. At least on WinCE devices you can use the space for something other than storing text.
i agree!!!!.. when i read the "feature" list on the ms web site.. i felt they used the psion series 5 as there target.. psion series 5 run about 1.5 months on 2 aa cells to me this is the most important point of a PDA or handheld.. it need to as low maintance as a pen or pencil.. and im afraid that beefy hardware does not fit that bill..
another thing.. both palm and psion give there dev tools away for free.. which == more free/shareware apps..
if the microsoft stuff is stable they have managed to catch up to psion in only 5 years...
good luck..ms.. between the pda market and linux you have a tough road ahead of you..
-greg
A couple reasons why I think multimedia and lots of RAM on PDAs is a good idea as we look towards the future... Umm, i'm not saying lots of ram is a bad idea, cause more ram only gives you more room. But try looking *backwards* to PCs that were coming out. They tried to classify the computers as MPC or MPC2 (Multimedia PC). The problem was that those classifications failed miserably after people got tired of watching those five avis on the windows cd and people realized that on the 14.4 modem it would take them 20 minutes to download a 5 second clip the size of a postage stamp. Broadband has been the only boon to multimedia on modern desktop computers and that is something sorely lacking on the 'shiny' new PDAs. Your pda is now completely tied to your personal computer to use any of its advanced overpriced features. I know that I personally never use my desktop except to back up the contents of my device, and ocasionally send it the latest application down the wire.
----------------------------------------------
I don't really mind double posts on
DAMN. It would be unberable to watch at that resolution. After the cost of a high-end pda and a microdrive, you could practally buy one of those portable dvd players with the built in screen and watch your DVD/VCD of the matrix on the plane with decent quality. Or just bring a total of a $100 worth of gameboy color shit and play that on the plane.
I dont know why I'm defending the simpler pda. Its not like all those features wouldn't be somewhat cool, but does it do a good job as a PERSONAL DIGITAL ASSISTANT? Thats what I bought it for, along with the other 80% of the pda market. Oh well fsck it.
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I don't really mind double posts on
Palmtops should be going lighter and faster, not bigger and slower. There's no reason for the little boxes to be any bigger than their own screens... just my two cents.
Carefree highway, let me slip away on you.
The problem is that micro$oft thinks that everything needs to be a handheld desktop. Palms are not, and they know it. They are organizers, and tweeked at best to do other things. They don't need to have mp3 playing capability or full on internet browsing.
I was playing with a small 130mhz WinCE machine and the comment i got from my friend who owned it, who was toying with my palm at the same time, was how fast my palm is. he asked what speed it ran at and i said 16mhz. He was amazed, a week later he had a palmIIIx.
once again...micro$oft is doing it to the handheld market, making all the systems slower with a huge OS. palm has done it, made something fast and handy. albeit they need to go more into the palm Vx with color and work on that one instead since its very slim.
long live palm!
JediLuke
JediLuke
-Do or Do Not, There is no Try
I'm not sure, but it looks like the handwriting recognition is based on ParaGraph's CaliGrapher product. At least, from what I can tell, they use the exact same gestures, which leads me to beleive they're related (after all, how obvious is it what a "cut" gesture should look like?)
If this is the case, it should be damned good. I have this product on my E-105, and it functions amazingly well, I didn't have to learn a thing, teach it a thing, it just works
Just my opinion, but I'm a big fan of the cassiopeia device, and I'm hoping Casio decides to release an upgrade.
-- It is too late for the pebbles to vote, the avalanche has already started.
I'm sure that the new Pocket PCs are great little devices but I'm rather disappointed with Microsoft's marketing of the platform - specifically in its comparisons to the Palm OS.
With quotes like:
"The new software is clearly better than [...] its chief competitor, Palm Inc.'s PalmOS."
Microsoft makes no effort to hide its loathing of it competitors. And what is excluded from the quote? "The new software is clearly better than Microsoft's previous effort with Win CE, but still falls short of its chief competitor, Palm Inc.'s PalmOS."?
And:
"...this accomplishment is a definite win for the PDA team at Microsoft." What is? Dumping Win CE?
Once again, in the 'compare' section, Microsoft makes sure the Palm cops it, with a spec for spec comparison. What about price and battery life? I don't know about everyone else, but I would prefer to have a compact unit with no frills that lasts for weeks on AA batteries. If I want 'media-rich' surfing capabilities on the go, I'd be inclined to save up a little more for a decent laptop with similar battery life and a much better screen.
Palm devices never claim to be 'Pocket PCs' and that's why people buy them - to complement their home or office machine with useful features and without the extra price and limited mobility of more fully featured PCs.
Some of you who followed the Stephen King eBook events may have noticed that the Glassbook Reader allows you to lend your books to other people. This is a part of the eBook Exchange Standard, currently being worked on by the EBX Working group if you're interested.
;)
Walt
P.S. Not affliated, etc. In fact, my current school project is to develop an eBook reader that is better!
Flashback 1995: "I think that MS has little chance in this arena because Netscape already controls 70% of the browser market and does what it does so well."
The Palm OS has IMO become the standard, much as Win9X has become the standard OS on 90% of PC's. You don't need to have WinCE on a PDA, and Palm OS is easier to use. I think that the people have already spoken. The Palm has already won this battle.
Don't be so sure of it. MS has money. Lots of it. And version 1.0 through 3.0 might suck bollocks (DirectX, IE) but they'll keep throwing money at it... Hope 3Com's new spinoff Palm division can handle MS.
On the other hand, I can't wait for the X-Box to crash and buuuuurn. :)
Wah!
Uhm, isn't Microsoft Reader based on the Open EBook standard? - http://www.openebook.org/
-
Ekapshi.
Yep, that's why I bought my Cassiopeia E-100. There was no point in my buying a Palm device *AND* a portable MP3 player.
-
Ekapshi.
...and if you think Microsoft doesn't deserve any punishment for its dishonest and bullying practices, have a look at this bullshit comparison between the Pilot and MS PDA:
e .asp
http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/pocketpc/compar
Email: MS = Yes, Palm = NO ( that is a lie )
Memory: MS = 16-32MB, Palm 8MB max ( But efficiency of RAM use? )
CPU speed: MS = up to 206MHz, Palm = 20MHz or less ( battery saving, efficient OS, etc etc )
Natural Handwriting Recognition: MS = Yes, Palm = No, must learn Graffiti language
etc etc etc...
This is bullshit!
They might as well include things like:
How many pins on the CPU chip: MS = 1000, Palm = 208
Battery Terminals: MS = Titanium, Palm = Stainless steel
Number of buttons: MS = 12, Palm = 6
CPU Voltage: MS = 3.9v, Palm = 3.0v
MicroBloatwareBullshitSoft!
it also inherited one of the OS's most annoying traits: it crashes. Just like good ol' Windows 98, this little OS crashes more often than we'd like. Our machine froze four times in less than three hours.
My Palm Pilot has crashed 0 times in three years, and endured through daily sync's and hard use.
What would you choose for your weapon - Four crashes in three hours or none in three years?
that'll be the day that I die...la la la
I was disapointed, I couldn't find any screen shots of the Blue Screen of Death.
I also like the Pocket PC Features, where when you click on one of the Features, you get to a blank page.
--
it's a sig, wtf?
Still doesn't answer my post. Merely restates what others have said. Remember, the same was said of Netscape.
oh well.
With all the usual ragging on MS I didn't see much mention here about MS's new approach to go against Palm: media playback.
Yeah MS Reader sucks, but being able to read books, playback MP3s and see A/V clips from places like Atom Films appears to be a new approach to taking on Palm. I'm not saying Palm does or doesn't have these features, but its not something I think of when I hear Palm Pilot.
I haven't seen the new interface and I don't understand the rationale behind reading web pages or Word docs on a tiny (color) screen, but I wonder if making a combo Rio Player and video playback device isn't a good move on MS's part. Reminds me of the Nuon approach to DVD players. I just wonder if MS will suffer the same fate.
Somebody tell me why these PDAs are actually useable on their own to input and read back files that need to display more than 20-30 characters a line. Once voice recognition and playback are really practical I can see PDAs taking off, but I just don't understand the fascination beyond "it's cool" for these things.
This is insightful? It totally misses the point! Palm is not the "handheld computer" of the future, it's the organizer of today! Sure the PocketPC (nee WinCE) might be a better handheld computer, but 70% of the people out there want an organizer now.
I read an interesting article about the design process that the Palm's founders went through. They focused on making the best organizer possible, they started by carring around various sized blocks of wood that simulated various form factors. They obviously did their homework.
Microsoft on the otherhand just assumes up front that the world wants "Windows Everywhere", somehow they'll figure out how to make it resemble an organizer. "If you give a 2 year old a hammer, everything looks like a nail to him"
Specialized devices will allways be better at the thing they were designed to do than general purpose devices. The only exception to this are where functions are complementary, i.e. they belong together.
IMO, Palm's real competition will come from the cell phone market. If someone figures out how to make a cell phone with a better organizer than Palm, it'll all be over for them. Why? Because cell phones and organizers are complementary technologys, they will converge. If Palm is not part of that convergence, they'll be just a footnote in tech history.
Our machine froze four times in less than three hours.
Either the hardware is defective or the OS needs major work. I know this is Microsoft, but I can't believe they would try to sell something that crashes this often.
P.S. Does Slashdot have "moron moderators" to control the flood of firsts and other nonsense? I am talking about people with enough points (like 100+) to wipeout the morons that just seem to have to post junk all over the place.
The Microsoft Stable: Breeders of the three legged horse Tripod
LOL...I asked this exact question to a developer, who replied that since the API calls are nearly completely overlapping, it's possible to compile one of the Pocket apps to run on x86 with nearly no modification to the source. Should Microsoft ever decide that it's any kind of a good idea, it could be shipped in a few weeks.
Overall, the pocket pc is probably a better machine. You can do a lot more with it. It looks like quite an impressive piece of equipment.
:)
Overall, what it boils down to is, what do you want this thing for? To look important and impress clients/cow-orkers/chicks? To act as a pc substitute? As an organizer?
I have a palm V, which is what I want. I want something to keep addresses/phonenumbers/appointments in, and it has to fit in my pocket. The pocket PC is just a little more than I'm willing to carry 24x7. Definitely compelling though. It would be great for travelling and such, but I'd hate to keep up with it all the time.
A palm V with an mp3 player would be perfect.
Or just an HP 48 GX
One more drink, and I'll move on. --Dave Matthews Band
The ironic part is that that despite this opening line, the reporter spent half the article explaining how the version of WinCE is not like Windows.
Does this
I got to here with Netscape (I think version 4.72) to see what the Pocket IE look like but I guess I should have expected it. ^_^
Although the main purpose of the Avantgo browser is to browse stored pages, it can also browse site directly from the net.
Main Menu -> Channels -> Open Page -> enter a URL
At least when you have to reboot when it crashes, everything is in memory and won't take as long as a desktop...*sigh*
-- From my Best Friend (Written to me over ICQ): "i was gonna go to a party...but i had to reinstall windows"
Bahhhhhhh....my Newton MessagePad 130 still rocks. I like it better than any PDA I ever tried. Perfect form factor (it's big enough to actually WRITE on the thing!), quick, long battery life. The only thing I wish it had was the ability to play mp3s.
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
I don't think the MS strategy of trying to shoehorn a 'lite' PC into a handheld box is going to cut much ice with real world users.
The concept is all wrong - the reason palm has been so successful is because it focuses on what the core competency of a handheld should be, not trying to make the handheld a cut down desktop. I like the bit about 'crash prone' in the C-NET review - at least they ported this feature successfully from the desktop!!
I can already sync outlook to my palm, read web content with AvantGo and do basic e-mail, document reading, games and even spreadsheets on this cheaper, more stable, more popular platform. There are thousands of developers working on more apps for this platform as we speak. The sheer fact that it is so well supported and popular should lead to equivalent 'map programs' etc being made compatible with palm. Think about the buying power of this user base and you'll see what I mean.
In business speak - palms add more value because the costs for consumers of buying and running them are less than the benefits. Windows CE imposes more needless costs on the user, in terms of price, crash-ability and kludgieness - all due to trying to FORCE people use Windows (a desktop OS) on a handheld - when there is NO consumer demand for this to happen. There doesn't seem to be much benefit in using this platform.
Microsoft might like to use this OS to create synergies with its desktop OS and create lock in between the platforms, but where's the killer app for this handheld? I don't see it. Connectivity with existing MS document formats maybe? Exclusive lock in with propriatery (pardon spelling) E-Books and Maps?
Microsoft, GET A NEW BUSINESS STRATEGY!! You can't expect to dominate this field with the exact same tactics you used to suffocate the desktop. (maybe if you were in palm's situation - you need critical mass for this to work)
Loads of customers are already locked into the superior palm platform, so i'd suggest you try and find ways to integrate these better with your strategy, since WindowsCE (thats still what this is, whatever you re-brand it) is clearly a non-stater.
The list of features is quite impressive, but I'm not sure if I really want to use small-size versions of Software well-loved for their crashativity...:-) Honestly, the hardware features seem much better than the palm's, but I'd always prefer a PDA with less features but better (that is, less likely to crash) software. But it's definitely time for Palm to come out with an overhauled version (bigger display, USB and HotSync via IRDa).
Cthulhu fhtagn!
Punctuation has a 't' in it. Two, actually.
Quit complaining about the punctuation in somebody's signature, and fix your own spelling problems.
-Shane Stephens
writing off the redesigned, renamed operating
system as a last-gasp attempt to win over
customers.
"It?s like the witness protection program," said
Rob Haitani, director of product marketing at
Handspring. "They?re trying to start afresh
with a new name, but look what happened last
time. They put them out there and no one bought
them." At New York?s Grand Central Station, Microsoft
will introduce the Pocket PC operating system and show off at least three devices running it from
Compaq, Hewlett-Packard, and Casio.
___
Well, what is so special about a pda that doesn't crash.. again, microsoft are way behind the times.. My psion has *never* crashed on me. Not once have I had to reset it.. how long have psion 5's been out? how old is that O/S - years old - and microsoft haven't even achieved a good ultra stable palm top o/s yet.
> You mean I paid $400 for this Palm Vx and I
>can't put a simple database on it without
>schlepping another $24.95 to some nearly
>anonymous company in West Podunk?
With Microsoft, you can get a device for $800 and then schlep out $200 for a simple database program from Microsoft.
I'm not certain how this is superior...
Here is a link to a scanned image of a full page ad M$ took out in USAToday. Don't know about you, but I have a Palm _because_ of its simplicity.
"You like Chinese food." -Fortune Cookie
A blatant rip of Talkie Toaster:
Windows Toaster: Given that God is infinite, and that the Universe is also infinite, would you like a toasted tea cake?
Me: We want no muffins, no toast, no tea cakes, no buns, baps, baggets or bagels. No croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes, and no hot cross buns. And definitely no smegging flapjacks!
Toaster: Ah! So you're a waffle man!
marotti.com
Of course, it will be totally useless unless it can play pocket billiards :-)
I see this echo'ed in a lot of your comments.
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should" in reference to MS putting out this new CE with all the bells and whistles -- and in reference to MS stating that you can watch video clips and listen to MP3's on these pocket PCs.
This is a very different vibe considering most of you cheer when someone talks about porting linux to a toilet or a calculator watch... why is this different?
obviously you haven't tried it. Even on the first generation palm-size PC the handwriting recognition (Jot) was far superior to graffiti and the newton for people who hadn't yet learned graffiti.
The new version is like enhanced Jot. I'm still too used to Jot to be open-minded enough to say its better. But I think if I was to hand this to somebody who'd never used it that they would find it much easier to use than even Jot.
You actually can write naturally, and you don't even have to write neat. As you get used to it sloppy writers are better because they aren't worried about the letters being perfect. They learn how the recognizer works and what they can get away with.
The simple fact that you see what you have written in digital ink on CE makes this far superior to the palm. You instantly understand why your letter didn't get recognized. Plus when you go into help, it draws on the screen so you get an idea what direction and how to write. None of this looking for the graffiti reference card crap...
This statement refers to "out of the box".
My PalmIII and PalmV don't have a web browser bundled. Thus this web browsing capability is provided by 3rd party software.
I also think they use "web clipping" to mean any sort of offline storage of web data..not just the crummy PalmVII wireless junk.
Besides, this is marketing speak, you have to take everything with a grain of salt.
Read up on the Windows CE architecture. It is _not_ like Windows. The kernel is threaded from the ground up. Win32 is a layer you can throw ontop of the kernel. You can make a WinCE device thats nearly nothing like a Wintel platform.
Also, the Pocket PC UI was redesigned because they figured out that no one wanted the clunky size of the windows UI on a palm sized device. So they changed it.
I have a palm III and love it, but I for one am extremely excited abotu the Pocket PC platform. Wait this summer a bit. Built in suport for wireless networking ? Active matrix color screen ? Built in support for IBM Microdrive ? In the size of a Palm III ? You can bet I'm excited. I like the idea of a Palm and a Rio in one box. Not to mention you can run a _real_ browser on one of these things. The only similar thing on Palm is the Sprint PCS PDQ. And it sucks. Alot.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I've seen this done with previous releases, but it's not exactly simple, unless the vendor releases an updated rom. If you're not in that lucky category, you can create a new image using the windows ce platform builder sdk and burn it to an eprom. Not sure if platform builder is for general release however. They were handing it out at devcon last year, but obviously that wasn't for 3.0...
I use handweb every day on my PalmV, connected via IR to my cellphone. I also have a telnet client, mail, nntp (tho I don't use that much) and even such essentials as ping. There's also a VNC client for palmos which allows you to get up a desktop on a remote machine (like PCAnywhere). It gets me really mad when people say that the PalmVII in someway gives something new to people - the Palm has been able to do full net connectivity for several years!
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
I'm going to save up my money so that I can buy a color palm this summer or fall for my senior year in school. I would much rather have a color palm than anything from Microsoft or their cronies.
I've wanted a PDA for a while but I have special needs and one of them is that I need to be able to enter Kanji for Japanees study.
The palm platform, even the Japanese version of the palm, does not do this. Because it uses graffiti one must enter the "sound" of the kanji and then pick from a list.
WinCE on the otherhand has kanji recognition built in.
Also, I want to have a descent JapaneseEnglish dictionary. The Japanese CE machine all have them built in. The Japanese palms do not. That might be okay if I could install some good software but unfortunately the smallest Japanese dictionary requires 9meg and palms only have 8.
Note: I haven't bought a CE machine yet but I'm iching to buy something and I wish palm would step up and release something I could actually use.
-gregg
The first is price. The Microsoft based devices cost far more than Palm based PDA's. This is because of the larger ammount of memory needed for it's larger applications, and more powerful CPU's.
The other reason for the Palm's success is it's simplicity. There are no start menus, control panels, etc. You just tap the icon for the application you want.
Also the aim of the two devices seems to be different. The Palm refers to it's self as a "connected organizer". The applications are designed to be used for simple tasks, like writing a note, keeping track of your appointments, or reading a web page offline.
The CE/Pocket PC device is like a full desktop computer in your pocket. It has full web browsers, word processors, and spreadsheets.
I don't think that this is what most of us want in a handheld. I certainly don't. And unless this changes, Pocket PC will suffer the same fate as WinCE, poor market share.
"Reality is less than television."-Brian Oblivion
Palm Crashes -
In my experience, these usually have one of three causes
- Physical trauma - physical impact can sometimes mess up the device w/o any apparent permanent damage
- Low battery - if you get on the borderline of possible battery-induced memory loss, you can (I guess) lose enough that the thing will crash
- Bad database mojo - deleting or mangling an important DB, bad hacks, anything that will execute code when the Palm sends notifications or performs traps can crash the device if it or its data are broken.
Usefulness of PalmOS vs. other designs
Reasonably speaking, it's very important to understand that different people have different needs for these devices - a whole class of machines defined by nothing more than "handheld-size". IMO Palm and WinCE don't even address the same target - and really, each claims to cover the other's territory.
Personally, I see the Palm as a practical compromise - limited power in exchange for good battery life and the best portability. The compromise was especially good when the Pilot was introduced, but power-devices like WinCE are gonna gradually close the gap. It doesn't mean Palm's gonna die or even lose their lead necessarily - but it means change.
As for the usefulness of WinCE - It depends on needs. If I need a pocketable computer with a fair chunk of power, I have a good idea where to look. (I'd want the option of Linux on such a device, however - if I'm gonna have the extra weight, bulk, and decreased battery life of a heavyweight, I want the flexibility to run my favorite power tools)
I think the whole ordeal is a disgusting melee of marketing. There's more important stuff to worry about.
Bow-ties are cool.
I think one of the few things anti-Palm types do sort of have right is their comments on battery life figures. We Palm users do tend to exaggerate the numbers for "actual use". I haven't used alkalines for a while but I believe my usual recorded powered-on uptime was only about 34 hours, which for me was one month of use (note taking, scheduling, Scheme programming in LispMe, Palm development, etc.) Certainly nowhere near the 50 hours on/3 months active (or more) figures you hear from some, but a hell of a lot more than 8 hours "on".
There are some situations where limited (rechargable) battery life is acceptable. I often find myself in situations where it's not, and I often encounter new ones - for starters, in my job I develop palmtop mapping and GPS products - if someone wants to use one of those products to navigate on a hiking trip or something I don't see how an 8 hour pack and a cradle recharger is gonna cut it. Luggable battery pack, maybe (You'd need to carry extras for the Palm and GPS anyway...) hrmmmm....
Both the Microsoft Wince/Palm comparison and the Palm "Stay calm, we still rock your world" E-mail were pretty much pure marketing, fairly unattached to reality and each repulsive in its own special way - but the one bit I enjoyed was when the Palm message said "Besides, there's no question that Windows CE is less unpleasant than it used to be". That was a kick, one of the high points of a Palm propaganda counter-strike that just screamed out "We own the market, so we can be super-cocky sons of bitches!"
Personally, I say we let the marketing monkeys have their war - mean time the rest of us can do something useful. I want to reach a new level of hacker zen. Reading the 1987 edition of the RMS Emacs manual is good for the soul, I highly recommend it.
Bow-ties are cool.
//The poster wrote this referring to another message - saying the first poster wasn't making a good argument
PocketPC is about 10x faster than Palm, but you have a feeling that this is irrelevant. Anyway, 20MHz is enough for anyone.
I remember someone famous once said "640K is enough memory for anyone". I'm guessing that someone has learned a thing or three since then.
Different users, different needs, different devices. Currently I need a Palm.
Bow-ties are cool.
Make that 2-3 times the cost of a practical Palm device.
I haven't compared with WinCE devices, but the IIIc is not readable at all under sunlight. The reflective grayscale screens with switchable backlighting do better under a wider variety of light, even if they don't get the pretty color and super-sharp contrast indoors.
TrgPRO 8MB - $350 or so
Palm IIIxe 8MB - $250
Visor Pro 8MB - $250
Bow-ties are cool.
Some of the proposed devices using it will resemble PDAs in one sense, but will be fully integrated with cell phones. As someone mentioned in a thread above this one, because the two functions of PIM and Cell Communication are complimentary, they are converging. Unfortunately, because this is happening faster in Europe than in the USA, we're not as aware of these developments, unless we're actively looking for them.
For a quick example: imagine being able to drop your PDA into your breast pocket, then clipping a small earphone/mic. to your ear. You say something like, "dial Mark Edwards" and it recognizes the voice command, fetches Mark's phone number from it's built in address book, and places the call for you.
To me, that dosn't sound like that same ole PDA. Until that time, I don't think I'll get any of the current generation PDAs. They're really nothing more than Exec/Geek badges of status and are more trouble than they're worth (to me, at least).
-- kwashiorkor --
Pure speculation gets you nowhere.
-- kwashiorkor --
Leaps in Logic
should not be confused with
Jumping to Conclusions.
Handsping's Visor (and Visor Deluxe), developed by the original creators of the Palm Pilot, offers the stability of Palm OS with expandability added in the form of the Springboard slot.
Currently available Springboard modules include backup, 8M RAM, digital camera, modem, and Tiger Woods golf. More are in the works, including a 6-in-1 module that will contain a pager, modem, 8M RAM, and a couple other things I can't think of right now but are generally cool.
Oh, and if I recall correctly, the Springboard is an open standard - anyone is free to develop Springboard modules. For more info: www.handspring.com.
Yes, they support 16-bit color.
This ain't the dark ages, man...
Actually, the Compaq iPaq appears to support only 4096 colors.
I believe that's a limitation of the reflective LCD screens, which can't handle 16-bit color yet.
Non-reflective screens display full 16-bit color, but are nigh-unusable outdoors.
Now I can finally use a nearly-complete version of Windows on my palm top! I've really been looking forward to this for a long time; it's really tough when all I use is my Palm all day and I forget what a crash looks like.
It's sad that Microsoft hasn't figured this out yet. With their resources, I think they could produce a much *better* PDA than Palm, which hasn't really improved much (well ok, the thin aluminum case is really nice) since the original. Instead, they chose to create one which will beat Palm in the features contest, but lose in the qualities that users care about.
If you want features, get a real computer.
If you want Jot and digital ink, you can get it for the Palm. It's been available for a long time.
Until you realise its not 'really' 32mb, since its 'partitioned' into X amount for storage (db's, text files, whatnot) and X amount for code.
terrible! whats worse is still apps are bloated. palm did it right, everything you need is in ROM, wince still moves too much off-rom, making programs far too big for a pda.
windows on a handheld pda is also not a good paradigm.
The Devices see to have good specs, large amounts of memory, good cpu, nice screen + rez. If they fixed the memory partitioning problems, the pda paradigm (ie: i like palms approach), and moving more into rom than into program memory, they could have a good contender.
btw, for _cheap_ palm knockoff thats actually very good, and VERY largly overlooked, the check ou the davinci at davinciworld and royal
I think, now that the palm 'paradigm' for pda's is clearly established, it is going to be the design to copy for all future pda. (not talking feature wise here, more look/functionality).
ja matte ne
Write your Own Operating System [FAQ]!
no sig for you
I want to rant a bit over this subject. MS is fooling a lot of potentional customers with this comparing, I think. I have a Palm III and a Jornada, both given to me from my employer. There's a HUGE difference between them, in RAM, display, battery etc. And guess what! The Palm comes out on top every time! Because it can do what I want three times as fast as the Jornada! Without crashing. It's a scam to compare them the way MS did, e.g. claiming that "user must learn Grafitti". True, but handwriting recognition in Wince really, really blows. Really! When I use Jot (Handwriting rec. for Jornada) I give up quickly and use the annoyingly little keyboard instead. Grafitti is a true blessing, and it takes just an hour to learn... Just an example. I don't care about the speed of the processor, I just want to access my e-mail in under 30 seconds. And Wince thinks that's a steep demand...
Well, Jot isn't really far from Grafitti, it's just worse. Grafitti resembles the way you write in 70% of the time, and manages to keep a high recognition of the characters. Jot is _supposed_ to be recognising yout handwriting, but I end up having to improvise a "Jot-grafitti", because you _still_ have to do it the _Jot_ way. Get it? That's why Grafitti is better. And the hour I spent learning Grafitti is a better use of time than the hour I used trying to salvage data from the Jornada (420) when Wince screwed up the system _and_ the backup (Crashed during backup, I guess it cruel poetic justice.). If you write Grafitti style on paper, you're in trouble. It's like saying when I learn English, I forget my primary language. (Norwegian) Also, where the hell is the international support? I can't believe that MS put the Æ and the Å characters there but _forgot_ the Ø (No, not the symbol for diameter.). This renders the device useless in Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
In the usual vagueness of Microsoft when comparing, they said some strange things. Let's compare these with the review on C/Net and our general knowledge.
Microsoft: POP3 email!!! (note: limited to third party add-ons
Palm: download from a whole bunch of POP3 email products
Microsoft: IE included (Access any web site, not just snippets of pre-selected and limited content.)
Palm: WAP, Clipping, AvantGo, etc.
Microsoft: Integrated AvantGo
Palm: optional AvantGo, comes on a CD
Why wouldn't you make such a big program optional?
Color and Screen Resolution
Got me there, I just worry about battery life
On-board memory
Got me there as well, just wondering if programs are in ROM or RAM
Processor Speed
Funny how the processor that has 10 times less MHz runs the real time OS
Industry Standard Expansion Slot
We need one of these on the palm
Synchronization
Microsoft: "Once you select this setting, just set the handheld in its cradle"
Palm: just get a program
USB Connection
Yeah
Integration of IrDA modem protocols
Uhhm, wasn't that in 3.3?
Natural Handwriting Recognition
"Unlike Palm OS's easy Grafitti writing program, Pocket PC's character recognizer is inconsistent. "
Voice Recording
Yeah
On-board Financial Software
who cares if it's on-board
Mapping Software
Palm: "Yes, however clarity of maps confined to low resolutions screens." WHAT?
Music
Palm sucks
Reader Application
Low resolution text only??
Animated Games
Palm does have them
Categories Microsoft don't got
Speed
Stability
Ease of Use
Battery Life
Pretty much Microsoft has the edge in included programs. Wow. You can get these free on the internet on the Palm, quickly. How hard is it to get a 2k program? This is the problem. There are a lot of stupid people in this "easy hand-held" market. Point is, Palm is assumed to be overly technical, Microsoft is going to advertise this with deceipt, and vagueness that makes even the best of us assume that this is better. If you want media in a hand-held, hell, this is the one you want. If you want a good reliable system, get the palm.
and I quote thusly "Prone to crashes" - 'nuff said
mas cerveza, por favor politically incorrect stu
I bought my palm secondhand, and there was a copy of palmscape, netscape for the palm pilot included.
I can hook the palm into my LAN by dropping it in the cradle and starting up a dial up connection, and it will surf successfully.
Palms Rock!!
now it says "./ DoS?"...i'm not kidding, try it yourself.
...a Beowulf cluster of these...mmmm....srexy...
This is a fact. Someone is posting with the subject line "scrubbing my nuts." These posts are somehow preventing all of the comments from below that post to not be displayed. In effect, making ./ useless to anyone with at threshold below +1. Try it yourself, on this story, or the two below. Set your t*hold to -1 or 0, and watch the comments dissapear. Something should be done, I just worry that the admins browse at +1 and aren't seeing it.
Oh baby! The Compaq iPAQ H3600 has a StrongARM. Can you say, "I can finally have my Itsy?" Oh, I bet you can! I am willing to bet Compaq Research is already running Linux on it. Check the specs PDF here.
Other awesome features: Reflective color LCD screen. Ambient Light sensor. Stereo Headphone jack. USB port.
Seems no Compact Flash slot.
You need the Compact Flash Card Expansion Pack or the PC Card Expansion Pack. Weird, but flexable! It's on the third page of the PDF.
OK, I know, that this is a very subective way to see it, but never the less:
IMHO M$ has proven in many way, that inovation is not their big thing. I don't belive, that ever M$ will change. Before I by something from M$ I by anything else. I don't trust any standard set up by M$ ... and so on.
I simply don't trust ... and I know, that this is not a technical point of view, but never the less I think that this is important.
MartinSlow, crashes, little storage memory (app bloat), slow, cumbersome GUI (scaled down Outlook), slow, "What do you mean I have to close an app to add a new appointment? All that's running is the Calendar and the Address Book!!", oh and did I mention SLOW?"
Well, i have a jornada 680 (clamshell design, not a properhand held). And it runs fine, never crashes. I'm not sure ur having so many problems, maybe it's the fact that its a nino.. i've opened up about 15 programs at once.. and it still ran fine.
"No thanks Microsoft. A PalmVx running at half the speed will do nicely, thank you. So I can't look at a video clip in 16-bit color, so what? Why would I do that on a PDA?"
[SARCASIM] Of cource, what the hell where micro$oft thinking?! evolution is bad! I hope the next PDA comes out with less memory, less power, less features, and can only read text files. Who on earth would want to whach there favorite movies and listen to music anywhere they are? [/SARCASIM]
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And just because someone else almost did, doesn't mean you must."
Dosn't mean u shouldn't either
"Then again - seeing ANOTHER MS gimick do a face-plant might be entertaining. Remember Bob?"
- - -
- - -
Yeah... but... really, could u actually browse the web comfortably in 16 shades of gray? with a width of (~)160 pixes?
The PPC wince machines might still be a bit craped, but the HPC wince machines are very readable.
- - -
did anyone see the screenshot of playing full-colour Golf? Beautiful. I *like* the idea of sitting on the beach and reading an eBook, listening to MP3s, all on a single gizmo.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Wow, another incredible step in Microsoft's march of innovation! The list of Bill's incredible "Industry Firsts" justs keeps growing!
1) MS Basic. (Take that, Carnegie!)
2) QDOS (I mean, MS DOS 1.0)
3) Excel (So much better than that Lotus thing!)
4) Dos 5.0 (Goodbye, DR-DOS!)
5) Windows 3.1 (Take that, Xerox/Apple/MIT!)
6) Windows 95 (Take that, Apple!)
7) Windows NT (Take that, Unix!)
8) IE (Take that, Netscape!)
9) Exchange (Take that, Sendmail!)
10) Visual Studio (Take that, Borland!)
11) SQL Server (Take that, Oracle!)
12) Windows 2K (Take that, Unix!)
13) Windows IIES (Take that, Apache!)
14) Windows Media Player (Take that, Real!)
15) Microsoft SkyServer (Take that, Hubble data archive!)
16) Microsoft Pocket Pool (Take that, Palm!)
Truly, Microsoft is the epitome of laissez faire capitalism! Their innovation and creativity show the whole world just how effective the American legislative, judicial and executive branches are when faced with large rogue corporation.
All countries (and 2/3 of the known extra-solar planets) should immediately model themselves after the USAs clearly superior (and effective) system of government.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Next thing you know they'll release a game called Pocket Monsters and get into trademark violations with Pokemon.
Actually, the PocketPC platform *will* support wireless, but only through a cell phone for now. There are PocketPC devices in development at Casio that will provide wireless connectivity in the near future. Read more on this ZDNet article.
from C|net:
The bottom line: If you already love the Windows desktop and want to take your Windows apps on the road, give this OS a try. But be prepared for some crashes.
Are you tired of only being prone to crashes at your immobile workstation? Would you like Windows to fail you in a wider array of circumstances? Well you're in luck! Now you can crash on the go, without having to lug around that hefty laptop! Thank you, Microsoft!
Yeah, my comment about the latest version of DOS wasn't to be taken literally. It's my favourite Microsoft operating system ;)
--
It's a
-- Danny Vermin
The question is... can Linux be put on it?:)
Why? Do you think Palm and Handspring are going to have trouble competing with them? Linux shouldn't be on a palmtop (and neither should Windows), just like PalmOS shouldn't be on a desktop. My next palmtop purchase will either be a Palm (flashable ROM) or a Visor (Springboard socket). WinCE or Pocket PC are too bloated for a palmtop.
I have a website. It's about Macs.
Ummm... what?
"Why the hell are you trying to put a database on a PDA?"
Databases are great in a pda. Isn't that basically what the addressbook and calendar are? Portable organized information. They're especially great for data collection. I love it.
Such is the infinite Grace of Popeye.
Handspring Visor Deluxe $249
Who needs color for schedule, contact info?
Hell, even minute browsing (gathering some reports of online traffic for a client) don't *NEED* color.
/**
Welcome to the Internet: Leave your privacy at the door...
After reading some of the comments above I have to point something out. Microsoft has called these things a "Pocket PC" for a reason: they're not a PDA!!!!
When I think PDA I really think PIM. A device to keep track of appointments, contacts, to-do stuff, etc. That's not what Microsoft is doing here.
What they are doing is trying to compress the entire PC (at least, Wintel PC) experience into a little machine that fits, kinda, into your back pocket. Sure you can still do all of the regular PIM stuff. But what's really amazing is how they go beyond the PIM.
It has Word, Excel, and Internet Explorer out of the box. None of these are perfect, but they are a lot more than the Palm comes with out of the box. AvantGo sucks. Nuff said.
They are in color. They have been in color for awhile. They look better than the Palm's lame excuse for color. The Palm isn't great in the sun either. It is better, but not so good that I'd hold it against the CE. I guess if you are some kind of fanatic of Hercules monochrome or a CLI junky you may go for grayscale. But I'll take color any day of the week.
Ok, only 32MB for MP3s. How many MP3s can the Palm play? Thought so.
Even if you don't like the Windows GUI, the Pocket PC barely resembles it. In its latest iteration it can't even honestly be compared to the Win 9x GUI. Use it for awhile and you'll see what I mean. It's still more alike Windows than the Palm, but it's logically, and well, done for the small screen.
The Palm Vx I have has been great: It looks really cool when I whip it out in public. But feature for feature, Microsoft has really done something special here.
I've run Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris at home for years, and love all of them much more than Windows. But it's a shame when people are blinded to true inovation and a great product do to whatever reason.
The little Espresso got rave reviews on /. for its remarkable size/feature ratio. Microsoft's been doing the same thing for years but has been completely ignored. It's a shame.
==========foo fighter==========
Do not mistake understanding for realization,
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
Its interesting to read the list of included _desktop_ software with these devices - MS Outlook 2000, MusicMatch MP3 Jukebox etc. Redmond is going after Palm this time from its strength; market domination of the desktop.
... I'm afraid I'll take the crashes.
Unfortunatly, the hardware is superior to the Palm stuff as well - and if Palm doesn't wise up will crush them. While "eBooks" may never be big sellers, mobile databases like Zagats restaraunt guides, drug databases for physicians, product specs for technicians etc etc are a tremendous market driver.
If when I'm replacing my Palm Vx a year from now I have the choice between something WinCE-ish that can store all of the medical texts I currently lug around (but crashes a couple of times a day) a slick Palm that doesn't have the same display quality or storage
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
--
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
However, my Nino 312 came with another handwriting app, "Smartwriter", that absolutely sucks ass.
(Hmmmm "Jot".. anybody remember the Jot cartoons from the 70's.. the little circle boy that talked to god? gads....)
- Palm web browsing is not limited to "text-based web browsing only". Using AvantGo or other browsing software, you can view web pages including graphics, including color images on the Palm IIIc.
- It's true that Palm users "must load" AvantGo "from CD or Internet". But since the whole point of AvantGo is to get content from the internet, why is it so horrible to have to download the program itself? And wouldn't you want to load an upgrade anyway when new versions were released?
- It's simply a ridiculous lie to claim the Palm doesn't have "animated games". Any Palm site like Tucows has a ton of them. And Sim City in color for the Palm IIIc was recently released, for heaven's sake!
There may well be valid reasons why the Pocket PC is worth buying, but reading these weird claims makes me distrust the whole thing.pocket pool!!! oh, wait...
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Sorry again it seems I am among the last to write and the day is up, so not many people will read this.
I think that the comparaison between the two models rely on a complex decision process. The Microsoft machine could actually be good. Here is why. The average consummer looking for a machine will look at features. This one compared to this one. They will look at what it can do. I am sorry to say, but the ability to walk with a box that plays sound is cool. I would love see extensions for the Palm to do it. And video. Who would love to show the moment baby took his first step? Le consommateur. That is the box advantage. The problem is the way software is developped on both system. Many programmers know the palm. It is simple clean interface that could use some improvements but that is all. No frills. Microsoft is the large and cumbersomeTaking on space
But I wonder Why microsoft has gone to make hardware machines, X-box, Pocket PC... What is the strategy and what motivated them to do it?
Taking on space
You see, I have a Palm Pilot. I love it. But I'm sorry, I want more. I want it to have superfast speed and gigabites of memory. I want to carry a complete computer around in my pocket! Computers help you make smarter decisions(blah, blah, I don't need to be telling Slashdot readers this). I say, give me the most powerful computer possible in the palm of my hand.
And of course there's the cool factor. I was always amazed at how the average Joe Sixpack gazed in wonder as I sported my Palm. Now that I'll be able to read books, play music, transcribe speech, and browse websites on this little thing, well I JUST MIGHT GET LAID WITH IT!!!.
Ah technology. The power to turn the average geek into Superman. I don't care if its from Microsoft, I think its great, and I want to see more.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Lending your PDA so that your friend can read an "e-book"? Isn't that like lending your friend your car for a week so he/she can listen to the radio?
Donny
www.pcplanet.ca : Product reviews, support and sales. Never buy an inferior product again : get free 3rd party reviews from PcPlanet.ca.
Ah the Newton... The Simpsons did a spoof on that a while back. Nelson wrote "Beat Up Martin" and it recognised it as "Eat up Martha"... I guess the writers have had a similar experience.
As for M$ stability, well, isn't that an oxymoron? Although I really dont know about CE... but I can say my Dreamcast never crashed >:)
--
#nohup cat
After reading at least half of the posts, I figured out I just had to say something... especially that I had a Palm and a WinCE machine for quite some time... here goes: 1) there is no real way of comparing them, it all depends on how you use them. For people who want to do some *serious* typing a Palm is a bad choice. For those who only need a mobile address booka WinCE3 palmtop is a bad choice too. When will some people understand that you can't compare apples and pears? 2) what's the obcession of trying to fit linux everywhere? do you *really* need a multiuser internet-server-centered device in your pocket to read a text when waiting for a bus? Once again, specialization is the key 3) Most of the battery problems are solved with accumulators... for example, a Sharp 4500 runs real smooth with them, and recharging is not really a problem. By the way, cheaper than to buy AAA batteries every month =) 4) the number of crashes is directly correlated with how you use the machine... I had an almost equal number with a Palm and CE device.. and at least the Wince ability to support PCMCIA without extra external bulky hardware is a big plus when you want extra security for your files 5) sure most people can live without color when browsing contacts... but when you look at the *system* in general, color support is nice. Web-browsing, .JPG watching etc. Sure, people using Lynx will disagree with me, but what the hell
Just for fun...
The Microsoft Advantage
Windows is the standard
- Windows has more than 75% market share worldwide,
- Windows has more software programs, 10-50 times more than any other platform.
- Windows is supported by the leaders in enterprise software, including Oracle, Siebel, SAP, Lawson, Sun,and Sybase.
Just can not abide with the tone of Palm's response.
I hate Microsoft. Never use it. Ever. Nothing from them infects my hdd. But, Palm is parrotting Microsoft's PC marketing message. None of this matters. I could give a crap about the number of software titles...Are they any good? This is used against Mac users constantly, but I have no trouble finding enough (too much, actually) software to run. This whole "standard" thing too pisses me off. This gets used vs. Linux constantly by PHBs. So fscking what if it won't run Office. There are options, some of which work better.
Makes me sick to see Palm ape Microspeak.
Tom Dutton
Reality does not happen until you analyze the dots. -Don DeLillo (Underworld)
Once again MS trys to charge in and steal the field of something, now PDA's.
..
..
Its stupid on their part, but people hear the "MS" name and think "OH THE MOST WONDERFUL SOFTWARE COMPANY WE GOTTA GET THIS ONE!"
Sigh.. and the Microsoft Reader is in ROM, and it gets worse.. it runs a MS OS
I hope a Linux PDA comes out sometime soon, to truely compete against this garbage.
-meff
None of these devices are any good for text entry, which is what "most people" do on PCs. There's a new PDA coming out in December that does:
You can type 64 wpm on this thing, and one model is no larger than a cellphone (4.88 x 1.77 inches). Downloadable demo of the system is available too.
This first unit slated for release is pretty basic, but future models will be programmable and have more features.
Sorry about the AC post but I couldn't make log in using kfm. What I meant is why the hell would you want something like Access (or excel, word, powerpoint, etc.) on a PDA? I'd wrather use something where it's easy to edit the database ie. something w/a keyboard.
So, seriously, can one install the new software onto an old WinCE machine?
I'm not sure if EVERY CE device can be upgraded, but the Compaq Aero 1530 (the black and white version of their new PDA) can be upgraded with an optional ROM paq for about $69.
granted it isn't a free upgrade and I doubt it would work on older hardware but at least those of us who adopted or upgraded recently aren't completely burned by this release.
Ad in classifieds: Pandora's Box (no box) $5
The thing I really liked about Windows CE was the fact that it was probably the most stable OS that ever came out of the Microsoft stable.
It's a shame that the CNet review says it's crashy, that's will be a real put-off to most people.
Bluetooth and 802.11 Wireless Ethernet modules are due out soon for the Handspring Visor. See the bluetooth press release and the 802.11 press release . I just worry about battery life with the wireless ether.
The handwriting recognition I've seen on the Vadem Clio -- which runs Windows CE, but is not a palmtop by any standard -- is frankly amazing. It recognized my signature and that of several friends; easy to use and easy to learn. This is one of the benefits of the faster processors available with the CE platforms. You can check out the details on the software
So it can play MP3s. Show me something nowadays that _can't_.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
The next question will be: can I drop Office 2000 off a cliff and just use the mini-versions on "normal" PCs? Maybe then the bloat will settle.
Seeing how the Palm does great Wireless networking (802.11b) -- (yeah, right) and how great the Web capabilities are, I think one offers more than the other.
Wireless Ethernet works only for few hundreds feet -- it means that you are in the same building with your network, and you need such a speed only to so something time/resource-consuming anyway, so for things like that small laptop/notebook will be a better choice, (I have vaio n505vx with wireless ethernet). However if you need to do something remotely where "remote" is another building (or city), it won't be of any use -- you need a cellular or cellular-like radiomodem. All versions of Palm support those things pretty well (VII has builtin wireless networking, but I prefer III{"",x,c} with faster Metricom modem) -- and when I need to use a notebook at some remote location I can just connect the same Metricom modem to it.
Another problem with wireless networking is power that it requires. Those things eat a lot, and unless separate power supply is used for them, it has a good chance to drain the battery very fast. PalmVII and everything that involves external radiomodem use separate battery for wireless networking, but I am not sure that WinCE/Palm PC/Pocket PC/whatever have enough space inside for a separate battery that powers PCMCIA/CardBus cards -- so the only real alternative to keeping wireless networking disabled is having an external power supply attached. Oops, that completely negates the point of having a PDA with wireless networking, and it's easier just to carry a notebook that has big enough battery to support radio Ethernet.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Proxiweb is a real browser -- it requests pages through proxy that re-formats them into a format, readable by the client running on the Palm, so even though it doesn't parse HTML on the Palm, result is the same. I use it for things like searching for products specs while at the store (which of cards is supported under Linux?, what chipset is in this thing?, etc.), maps from mapblast.com (using coordinates of the nearest retransmitter taken from Metricom modem), etc.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Frankly trying to shoehorn Windows onto a handheld is about as useful as putting Linux there.
The more you know, the less you understand.
EPOC/32 is decidedly not an alternative to PalmOS (although the Quartz demo -- EPOC/32 on a colour handwriting-type PDA a la Palm -- might well be if/when they ship it).
EPOC/32 is a great OS, handicapped by the fact that Psion Software (note: not the same company, but part of the same group -- Psion's internal corporate structure is confusing to outsiders) seem congenitally incapable of comprehending the idea that people might want to use it in conjunction with any OS other than Windows. For example, the Psion Word import/export filters are built into the PsiWin app that runs under Win95/98/NT, and there is no native import/export. They don't even publish file formats; the EPOC/32 apps are based on an OO stream-store system implemented in C++ and accessible only via an API available using their Windows development toolchain.
EPOC/32 basically ties Psion to Microsoft's apron strings -- a really foolish place for Psion to be, and only partially mitigated by their Symbian scheme. There are signs of them wising up about the need for EPOC/32 to be a general-purpose OS, but right now it's an obligate peripheral to a Windows box, just like CE.
(Finally, EPOC/32 does too take whole seconds to boot! And I've had crashes. But maybe it's just sensing my innate hostility to anything so Microsoft-friendly ;-)
Kinda like Netscape in the web browser market?
Isn't it ironic, that the same market forces that are making it difficult to unseat Windows on the desktop (primarily, the network effect, along with the fact that people tend to stick with what they know) are preventing Windows from making it on the palmtop?
... "Well, sure it's portable, and you can take it anywhere, but it's an integrated part of the operating system and we can't just remove it!"
Microsoft doesn't know how to win over a market sector by making a better product. They only know how to steal a market sector by chaining a product to Office or Windows. That being impossible in the palmtop market, they don't stand a chance, unless they shipped a free Pocket PC with every copy of Windows. Hehe
--
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
The first two aren't web browsers, they're web clipping systems. In what sense aren't they web browsers? You attach a modem to them, you can surf the web. I regularly read Slashdot through a wireless modem on my palm pilot. Although I'm not sure about Avantgo, I am aware that Proxiweb handles images, encryption, form submission, cookies, and limited javascript. If you consider lynx to be a web browser, I don't believe there is any grounds to consider these soley web-clipping systems, on a purely functional sense.
Of course, both of these systems require a special proxy server (free service) to reduce the complexity of html/images. Perhaps this is the limitation you are refering to?
--
--
#include <malloc.h>
free(your.mind);
A slight difference is that the PDA has your entire life on it - appointments, contact numbers, and so on - so it's hardly practical to lend it to someone for a week or two while they read the book...
Palm does need to get its act together on extras - most of the Pocket PC bundled features are available as addons (e.g. the TRG Pro is a Palm clone that has a CompactFlash slot, so it can support the IBM Microdrive I guess), but adding them all is a pain for someone who wants a simple tool.
I think there is a market for high-end work+leisure PDAs - i.e. including MP3 player, good colour graphics for photos grabbed from digital cameras, good reader software, etc (by the way, see http://www.grc.com/ for details on the lack of innovation in Microsoft's ClearType technology for clearer text on colour LCDs - used in Apple II if not earlier).
I'd like to see a better OS: perhaps the mobile phone manufacturers, who are all going for Psion's (now Symbian's) EPOC OS, may do this. EPOC is 32 bit, threaded, and so on, and may be a good way of hosting the PalmOS (Nokia is likely to do this according to a story last year) - so you can run the thousands of PalmOS applications and still have the oomph to process voice calls, Internet data exchange, MP3 playing, and maybe even video.
Actually Windows CE is (and always has been) 'new rope' - the only thing it shares with Windows on PCs is the Win32 API, and in fact it uses a subset of the full API.
WinCE is not going to get much embedded market share IMO until it gets more reliable.
Win2000 already broke IrDA usage - the IrCOMM protocol (basically telnet-equivalent over IrDA) doesn't work at all, allegedly because of difficulties with serial port locking. Strange that Unix has managed to do serial port locking for 30 or so years.
IrCOMM is used by anyone wanting to talk to their GSM mobile phone's built-in modem, e.g. if you want your nice new Win2000 laptop to talk to the Internet.
Anyone notice that all the shots of apps running on these things all had titlebars on them? Hell, some of them have titlebars and status bars. While the palm pilot silkscreened area is annoying, at least they designed their interface for a tiny screen. MS meanwhile just shoehorned the windows interface into a PDA, with no thought to space economy.
And they damn well better have improved ActiveSync (aka ActiveStink) before I even consider getting one of these.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
First thing to note, comparison based on out-of-box. That means none of the add-ons are considered at all. Let me go through and comment each with add-ons included.
Full Email: They list "No" for the Palm. Multimail Pro provides it, so I consider that a Yes if I ever wanted to do email on a palm sized computer. Of course we're talking Pocket Outlook Express here. Considering the Deja poll on email clients has OE in the middle of the pack with the only two clients I recommend (PMMail and The Bat! topping the list chances are I'd look for third party email even if I were going to.
Web-Browsing: Well, considering the resolution (320x240) there aren't many sites that will come across looking decent in the first place. On a palm sized computer I prefer only snippits and text. IE, content instead of fluff. This is doubly true when you consider the bandwidth restrictions of wireless communications.
AvantGo: Was a pig on the Palm, most likely a pig on MS's stuff and, IMHO, not worth a damn. I get more use out of iSiloFree and their web convertor for a fraction of AvantGo's space.
Color: Hope the sun isn't out, right? :)
Memory: 16-32Mb given. This is MS, something tells me 24Mb of it would be needed just to store everything they want to shoehorn in there leaving 8Mb, what the Palm offers. :)
Speed: Up to 206Mhz compared to the Palm's 20Mhz. Of course, all the MS applications aren't coded as tight as Palm applications so they feel like it is 20Mhz. Honestly, I have a Palm IIIe that I have used Afterburner II to slow-down to save on battery life. I normally run at 13Mhz compared to the normal 16Mhz and it is fine. Most of the time the machine is idling anyway. Isn't like we've got RC5 going in the background.
Expansion Slot: Welll, ok, they got it there, maybe.
Sync: "Always ready to go with ActiveSync!" Like, ActiveX? ActiveDesktop? Uhm, I dunno about you but me, I'm fine with pushing a single button.
USB connection: Aaand? USB may be nice but I've not really worried over a sync before.
IrDA: No comment
Handwriting Recognition: OK, everyone who can't read their own handwriting please raise their hands. Grey raises his hand. I like Graffiti because it is easy. Microsoft really is going for the lazy people here. "No more buttons to press, don't have to learn an input system that 90% resembles what you write anyway!"
Voice Recording: Why? With 32Mb you can barely cram anything into that of any value. Besides, there are add-ons for the Palm that allow this.
On-Board Financial Software: Wow, Money for PocketPC included. Works with Microsoft Money 2000. I use Quicken 2000 and PocketQuicken on my Palm. Wow, imagine that.
Mapping Software: "Clarity of maps confined to low resolution screens." 160x160 compared to 320x240. Both of those, to me, are low resolution. Besides, those same low resolution screens work fine on specialized GPS devices for years now. I don't need the extra space for an effing animated streetsign (2nd cousin to the paperclip) to tell me to turn left now. One back-seat driver will be quite enough, thank you. Needless to say there are several applications for the Palm that provide this as well as several GPS modules for the Palm.
Play MP3s: "No need to carry an additional MP3 player". Pocket PC, 32Mb. Rio, IIRC, 96Mb. There is a reason why I don't want my Palm to do MP3s, the specialized device does it better.
Text reader: iSilo, Peanut Press, DOC format (dozens of readers there) TealDOC, etc, etc, etc
Animated Games: The whole reason I started writing this. First off, I hate the corpspeak "experience". "A wonderful web experience!" "A great gaming experience!" "That new Star Trek show furthers the TV experience!" Get over it, it isn't an experience, it is a game. Furthermore, I guess Zap 2000! doesn't count as an animated game. What comes standard with the Palm PC that is awesome? Solitaire and Minesweeper? Definintely have to look add-on here in both cases.
-- Grey d'Miyu, not just another pretty color.
When questioned as to exactly why it's better than the wildly successful Palm, and why it's better than the dismal failure WinCE, Microsoft Marketdroid #THX1138 replied:
"Because it's got PC in the name."
Then three guys in black trenchcoats grabbed the questioner and hauled him out back. Scanner listeners at the same time heard this exchange, filtered through Microsoft's proprietary new encryption routine:
"eWay aveHay imHay"
"oopWhay isHay amnDay assay"
Many years ago, someone in Japan had a 'wonderful' idea: create a standard for 'home computers' that allowed them to interoperate even if they were built by different vendors. The times were really different form now, and very little people did buy 'computers', mainly because you had to become a programmer to use them beyond the 'crappy game console' point.
They thought: "with interoperability and support from over 15 vendors, some of them called Sony, Philips, Matsushita, we can't fail!".
Almost. At the end, the MSX standard wasn't so bad (comparatively better than what WinCE is today) but... they shared a limited market base between 15+ manufacturers, and made so little money that after 2 years and an aborted MSX2, they closed shop. All 15 of them.
Now, could this suggest something to Microsoft? They have a new product for a little-more-than-niche market, and are trying to convince the people actually building the devices that they'll somehow make profits. Where? In a market were, between Palm and Symbian/Epoc, there is less than 10% of remaining space? And where the wast majority of the potential PDA user base are NOT going to believe they marketing/FUD tactics because they know enough to 'see the truth'?
MS do hope that their Windows user base will run to Pocket PC, but this will never happen: they are barely able to use a windows PC when they have to (work, school), and have no desire to buy another one to have the hassle always with them.
I'm wondering why HP, Compaq & Co. accepted the 'deal' and tried again. I think that the answer could be very interesting for judge Jackson, too.
Ciao, Rob!
AniToolBox! An Open Source animation program!
However... "Handwriting Recognition" really worries me. I used it in Apple's Newton and was not impressed at all with it. I don't think MS' HW recognition works any better (I haven't tried it yet though but I draw this from my experiences with lots of HW Recognition packages). Graffiti will be more reliable at the long run since it is very easily recognizable by the software and mismatch rate (i.e. recognizing 8 when you wrote B) is extremely low.
I have a Newton 130 and liked the HW recoginition when I first got it, but it became cumbersome and prone to error when your hand got tired. Guess what I did? I bought Graffiti (this was back when Palm was a software developer for Newton). Graffiti made the Newton HWR work soooo much better.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
I was going to get a Palm. Now I'm going to get a PocketPC instead. That poor little piece of Marketing propaganda just made it inevitable.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
I will be up front in this, I own a Palm IIIx. So here, my view is a little biased. Still, I think that MS has little chance in this arena because the palm already controls 70% of the PDA market and the Palm OS does what it does so well.
I admit that it would be neat if my Palm had the capability to play MP3's and had color (like the IIIc) - But I don't need it. I use my Palm as a organizer, and a E book. It does these things very well. Sure, the new features are nice (like the Ebook reader) but again, MS is missing the point of a PDA.
It is, first and foremost, an organizer. Everything else is secondary to this. Palm spent a good deal of time optimizing their interface for the "tap number" to make them easy and fast to use. For anyone who has used a CE device (and I have) you realize just how much they behave like windows... EXACTLY like Windows. Try using the search function on a CE device and then try it on a Palm, you should notice a signifigant difference in speed.
The idea that MS has that people want the interface on their PDA to be a windows one is not a bad idea, but its not great either. The Windows interface was simply not designed with a PDA in mind. The Palm OS was.
In fact, upon refection I think that MANY GUI's could learn a thing or two from the Palm. I have been working with computers for some time, and I have yet to see a GUI that has been as intuitive to use as the one on a Palm. Everyone that I show my Palm to masters the interface quickly (although not the grafitti). I have seen people struggle with the "standard" Windows interface for YEARS, never mind the looks that they give me when they see Gnome running E and my themes... But I digress.
The Palm OS has IMO become the standard, much as Win9X has become the standard OS on 90% of PC's. You don't need to have WinCE on a PDA, and Palm OS is easier to use. I think that the people have already spoken. The Palm has already won this battle.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
Yeah, I bought a WinCE-based Nino. Pretty impressive unit, for about a week. Slightly larger than a PalmIII.
Slow, crashes, little storage memory (app bloat), slow, cumbersome GUI (scaled down Outlook), slow, "What do you mean I have to close an app to add a new appointment? All that's running is the Calendar and the Address Book!!", oh and did I mention SLOW?
No thanks Microsoft. A PalmVx running at half the speed will do nicely, thank you. So I can't look at a video clip in 16-bit color, so what? Why would I do that on a PDA?
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And just because someone else almost did, doesn't mean you must. Then again - seeing ANOTHER MS gimick do a face-plant might be entertaining. Remember Bob?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Note the emphasis on software that uses proprietary interchange formats (Microsoft Reader, Microsoft Media Player), so that no one will be able to compete compatably. Microsoft knows exactly what they are doing. You can bet your ass they are making 'strategic agreements' with content providers to make sure that many things are available only in these formats. (Remember that Steven King couldn't even read his own book!)
The next few years are going to be painful.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Whill this be a real PC, or just like the WinCE-machines? I.e., will it be an x86 device with normal hardware, just like any portable x86 machine?
That dictates how hard it will be to port Linux to it. If it is a full-featured machine w/ MMU, I don't see any reason not to port Linux to it. SO, then, the only thing missing is handwriting support in Gtk and Qt...
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Here is the link to the thread http://slashdot.org/comm ents.pl?sid=00/04/18/237234&cid=42. I guess the editors don't read the actual discussions to see what people are talking about ;o)
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It's called competition. If no other pda devices existed besides the Palm, everyone would be screaming evil empire, and the justice department would be on them as soon as they finished with microsoft.
_______
2B1ASK1
So, seriously, can one install the new software onto an old WinCE machine?
That would have been a very nice feature, for those who have invested in the older hardware/software...
Can't see anything in the FAQ at Microsoft's site... will look more at some other sites though
Anyone have any info?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I don't think so. Not when PDAs are approaching the price points of TVs...
Do you ever hear the complaint that there are too many kinds of TVs with different features? Trinitron, ultra-flat, HDTV, PIP, auto-scan, etc?
It's not glutting the market. The market isn't even very well defined yet, so all these different PDAs will help define the market.
Though I do suspect that what happens is that 80% of the market will consolidate around 4 PDAs using the PalmOS.
Sony will replace their remote controls with a PalmOS device, that will also happen to play their digital music format, use the memory stick, connect to the PSX2 via USB, and generally focus around their consumer network. We might also see PalmOS inside camcorders and cameras.
Palm itself has the business PDA locked tight. Or Handspring.
Apple might have itself a kids/general PDA. Bright, colorful, fun. Use it to interface with the Macs and the wireless network. Perhaps a client of Mac networking software, it will give them access to Quicktime movies, music, the internet(and search engines), etc.
Someone will come out with a Gameboy type Palm. Or Nintendo will. For gaming, music, movies. Perhaps it won't even be a handheld! A monocle, an earbud, a microphone, all connected together via BlueTooth, where the PDA itself is just a small pager like device that accepts a CD the size of a quarter. Or a IBM microdrive.
If not Sony, then someone else a PalmOS camera/camcorder, IBM microDrive for storage, mp3-like software to encode voice through the microphone, mpeg encoding for the video, in something the size of a pack of cards. The lens should be the biggest component, and then the LCD display. Oh, and power.
So no, I don't think there is a glut. Just plenty of spaces for handheld devices to grow
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Somehow my post got scored redundant(fine, perhaps it is...)
9 /1733239&cid=157">reply</a> to me also gets moderated as redundant...
But then chacal's <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/04/1
It's not as if we're trying to burn karma points here. Especially since I'm not seeing anything above it that's asking the same question or getting answers...
Of course, then there's the strangeness that Slashdot is not even showing me any of the posts of 2 or so. Is there something screwy going on with Slashdot right now?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Well... the specs certainly look impressive and the feature list is many times better than that of Palm. This will definetely give Palm run for its money.
However... "Handwriting Recognition" really worries me. I used it in Apple's Newton and was not impressed at all with it. I don't think MS' HW recognition works any better (I haven't tried it yet though but I draw this from my experiences with lots of HW Recognition packages). Graffiti will be more reliable at the long run since it is very easily recognizable by the software and mismatch rate (i.e. recognizing 8 when you wrote B) is extremely low.
Also, what is the stability of this new MS operating system (which is nothing but new WinCE)? If it crashes a lot... forget it. I prefer having less but more stable set of features.
--
GroundAndPound.com News and info for martial artists of all styles.
This was in my email this morning. It is from the Palm Developers mailing list. I had to laugh because, well, Michael Mace hits it right on the head! Ya gotta like a guy who tells it like it is.
Dear Palm Solution Providers:
We've received some questions from the Palm economy regarding what we think about the new version of Windows CE, which Microsoft calls Pocket PC. We expect that Microsoft will make a very big launch event and advertising campaign starting April 19, just as they did with the last version of Windows CE.
Just like last time, some industry analysts will announce that Palm is dead, because Microsoft's handheld has more PC features than Palm handhelds. And just like last time, when the smoke clears we think Palm will still be on top.
We don't ever underestimate a competitor, though. The market is too competitive and changes too fast. Besides, there's no question that Windows CE is less unpleasant than it used to be. So we'll continue to work hard to tell Palm's story, including the amazing array of great software and hardware products that you bring to the Palm platform.
Now that we're a public company, we have very aggressive plans to drive the long-term growth of the Palm platform. We'll be revealing more about those plans in the next several months. And in the meantime, we think we have a great story to tell about Palm and our partners today. Here's some of the information we'll be distributing. You'll see this reflected in new and more aggressive marketing campaigns this summer. If you get questions about Palm's competitiveness, we encourage you to pass this information along. And we'd like to hear from you if you have comments on this memo, or ideas on things that we could do better.
Please email your comments and suggestions to devinfo@palm.com with "Pocket PC feedback" in the subject title.
Thanks very much for your support of the Palm family.
Michael Mace
VP, Product Strategy
Palm, Inc.
I was wondering something though. Will the Pocket PC come with a billiards game?
I thought it was a pretty intelligent move on Microsoft's part to incorporate Media Player (which is actually pretty good on Windows) into PocketPC. After all, that's a great technology for consumers that Palm can't easily duplicate. But then I stopped and thought: even the heaviest PDAs have at most 32 megs of memory, much of which will already be consumed by the OS (especially for a Windows-based one), applications, and real work. So that leave, what, 16 megs in which to store your movies?
This will be a key feature, say, two years down the line when technologies like the memory stick expand their storage capabilities and gain widespread acceptance. Until then, just a novelty. . .
But DOS is a somewhat popular OS for x86 based embedded systems. A lot of the ads in Circuit Cellar are for 386 and 486 based single board computer running DOS usually with a Flash ROM instead of a hard drive.
May I ask why one would want to remove the reader?Considering it doesn't free one up any space. If you want, there is also nothing stoping you from downloading books in both HTML and TXT to read. Heck, you can even use RTF if you felt like it.
Real-time Collaboration Consultant
... people still argue over Windows CE versus Palm. I own a Casio E-100 (WinCE), Palm IIIx, and a IBM WorkPad Z50. Each one has positive and negative points.
They ALL make fine tools for keeping track of personal data and doing simple tasks. This is why you bought one, right?
Okay, so a search takes a little longer on the Casio than the Palm. It'll take you longer to reply to this post than the extra time you'll spend doing 1000 searches. The Palm doesn't play MP3s, which I find convenient, but it's smaller and cheaper. And so on and so on.
In the end, get the one that fits how *YOU* will use it and stop trying to justify your purchase publicly. Just enjoy your gizmo and think, no matter how slow the search is, it sure beats hunting though paper.
... when you need a 200mhz chip, for web browsing, mp3 playing, editing and organizing information. I know.. I know.. "MS isn't producting the product..." but encouraging the manufacturers to use higher end hardware doesn't make things cheaper. Windows2000 anyone?
---
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
I always liked the winCE hardware. The color, the built in periferals (namely mics, real speakers, and real ports). I just hated the software. Looking at the new hardware that lusting continues. However I still don't like the software. I will admit though that this new software looks much better. If I was Palm or Handspring I'd be afraid of this thing. I'd improve my hardware (Similar to the way Handspring has done, but only with standard pcmica cards, not those handspring modules).
Do a search for Yopy on slashdot here and you get one of these with linux on it. Samsung is making them. also check out www.yopy.org
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
But despite what the marketing fluff claimed, I hadn't bought a PIM. I had bought a slick device that developers were busy hacking all kinds of odd and interesting hardware and software for. While the standard apps ARE amazingly valuable, there are other 3rd party apps that also earn their (and the Palm device's) keep. Everything and the kitchen sink? If it's done well, load it on.
Well... yea. Implementation. That's the rub. Its a nice thought to say MS is ahead of the tech game... but if their offering isn't implemented properly, is it REALLY ahead? I don't think so.Palm has succeeded for some very good reasons - they're functional. They work. They weren't the first PDAs available. They weren't able to leverage success in other markets. And they went against some stiff competition. Yet, they still come out on top. Palm's approach to functionality may not LOOK sexy to some people (I personally subscribe to the concept of "less is more") but its usefull.
Other attempts at PDA design have missed that very same mark.
Newcomers to the PDA scene would do well to take a good look at Palm's leasons learned. I think the subtle point here is that a Palm device CAN have tons of nifty gadgets hanging off of it - but it is not a replacement for your choice of computing platform. Its an extension to your desktop (or laptop as the case may be). It allows your data to be a bit more mobile. Perhapse it also enables you to do some things (manipulate a small amount of data, play a game, pull down a map, etc) on the move. But that's the limitation.
There are tasks that a PDA just isn't right for. Trying to force a PDA to do those tasks is an exercise in futility and a path to a failed product offering.
There may very well be web browsers for the Palm out there, but you've got to be look carefully... The claims they make about fake browsers like AvantGo are downright deceptive.
MSK
MSK
Anyway, I'll concede that there are web browsers for the Palms. (It's a law of nature that if a computer is capable of doing something, someone will write the software.) My original point was that it doesn't include a real web browser, unlike the new WinCE machines.
MSK
I've had a Cassiopeia E-105 for six months now, and it is definitely not a WinCE 3.0 machine. According to Casio's press release, the model introduced today is the E-115. I haven't seen any information about its specs or size, so it may be quite different from the E-105. (Though I doubt it.)
I think the Pocket PCs are dandy. It looks like Microsoft has really combined the best features of WinCE (applications, a real OS, support for better hardware,) with the best features of Palm's and their kin (a simple and fast interface, USB support.)
Those of you who are complaining about the speed of current WinCE devices, you should note that the current version of WinCE wastes massive amounts of CPU time pretending to be Windows. Now that Microsoft has given up on making WinCE look just like Windows, it's reported that the new OS runs more than twice as fast on the same hardware.
MSK
Cassiopeia E-115: $599
Hmmm... I actually thought the WinCE machine would be cheaper, but it sure isn't "2-3 times as much." 'Course, these are list prices. I bet the difference is even smaller at retail.
MSK
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the PDA fad is glutting the market with cheap replications of existing products? I'd like to see some real innovation come about in the PDA market, like Blue Tooth-enabled devices, or RJ-45 jacks on PDAs. Now that would be nice...
Error is discipline through which we advance. -- William Ellery Channing
So, does anyone know what kind of processors these babies have? Is it supported by GCC? Well, then, how about Linux on one of these?
UMMMMMM..... Why would one bother to download the trailer, send it to thier pda, waste valuable memory, and watch it on a tiny batter-powered screen. Watch it on yer damn computer and use your pda for something USEFUL. I carry around this little grey brick in my pocket because it has piles of useful info that makes my day a heck of alot eaiser. Its quick and easy, becoming a seamless extension of your everyday life. It does exactly what 80% of the pda market wants.....
Anything more, and you buy a *laptop*.
Heck, you can even get a mini sized laptop for not much more than these things anymore.
My palm only crashes with explicit conflicts. I *never ever ever* get random-ass crashes. Only when something dosn't happen to like a hack I have installed or is missing something critical, or dosn't like something that was added/changed in the latest revision of the Palm OS...
----------------------------------------------
I don't really mind double posts on
"be prepared for some crashes" says Cnet! Looks just like CE all over again. For market watchers, the fact that Palm went UP while MSFT went DOWN might tell you how the investment world took the news.
MS Book reader?
Whoa, a book is basically text, and perhaps a few pictures. WTF is wrong with using HTML for that? I mean HTML is standard, open, simple, portable and unencrypted.
Oh wait, it's standard, open, simple, portable and unencrypted.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Who the hell is going to buy a $800 electronic device ill-suited for anything other than Solitaire! Hell, even Solitaire has to be difficult to play, what with the tiny form factor and Windows interface!!
I vote we dub it 'The Microsoft Gameboy'. After all, is is just a toy compared to a Palm.
.sig: Now legally binding!
and still do calendars and read email on the train. Even a VGA PCMCIA card would do, if the PDA knew how to use it. But without the ability to talk to a monitor or projector and enough ram for the typical 4MB bloated PPT, there's no point in hauling the bigger MS apps around, and I'd much prefer a lightweight friendly PDA OS like the Palm or Psion or at least the old HP MSDOS PDAs.
My Psion 3a was a wonderful machine; just at the upper limits of "pocket-sized", but I could type at full-speed (Graffiti - arrgxx\\gh) and the apps and OS were well-though-out, convenient, and synced well with PC apps. The 9.54MHz 8086-clone was more than enough horsepower for the apps it had, though crypto could be a bit slow. Hardware was extremely durable and solid, but unfortunately you can only drop it on the floor so many times and Psion's gotten a lot less responsive to US repair customers, and the cool new wares are mostly being written for Palms anyway.
One of my friends has a Cassiopeia with the new camera, MP3 player, etc. - good toys do somewhat make up for the OS
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
In that article they say thet Byte estimates there are only 200 windows ce developers worldwide. I find that hard to believe. I'm a wince developer in India, and considering the companies other than mine that do wince work, I am pretty sure that we must have that number in India itself. And there are a whole lot of WinCE apps out there - SOMEBODY must have developed them. Comments, anybody??
IT workers world wide deserve several 10 min. coffee breaks per day while their windows computer "un-crashinates" (reboots). lol
___
It's not anything new. Palm has ms beat on price and share and has lock-in on developers. I don't care if ms can make a PDAos whistle zippity do da, it's still to expensive.
___
Newsflash: MS DOESN"T MAKE A PDA !
Why in the world would 2 companies with a strong user base and solid brand name put themselves in a PR position that makes them look like "The guys who make the kewl little PDA case" and ms comes off looking like the 8th freakin' wonder of the world (all without ms making or selling any product).
It's a horrible PR deal for any company making units for MS to position themselves as yet-another-ms-product-distributor.
___
I know most /. readers hate Microsoft with a firey passion, but come on.... To say that MS has no chance is this field because Palm already has 70% of the market is bull! The hand held does not have the same type of lock-in that desktop operating systems have. Its not like you invest a lot of time learning your Palm and invest a lot of money in software. Users can easily switch from PalmOS to PocketPC. They're both easy to use, have the same general functions and come with most of the software needed to operate one. Once consumers start seeing both on the market and can compare price/features side by side, I doubt brand loyalty will keep them from switching to the best solution for them. I see MS having no problem getting over %50 of the market here. ...enough of my rambling.
ÕÕ
This is comparing apples and oranges. Palm devices were not made to play mp3s. They are PDA, not pocket entertainment center. I prefer my Handspring Visor, the batteries last for over a month, I can plug in a springboard module if I need extra functionallity.
Free Mac Mini
That is, until the Amish take over the world!
Mwa ha ha ha ha!
Stay up hacking each weekend. Sleep is for the week.
So, what's to prevent you from sharing your e-book? If there's a friend you trust enough to lend your PDA, then there's nothing to keep you from physically transfering the device from your hand to his, letting him read any e-books contained therein, and returning it to you when he's done.
Kind of like a paper book, isn't it?
Stay up hacking each weekend. Sleep is for the week.
I'm posting this just as I received it a few minutes ago....
- -----
Subject: Palm talks about Pocket PC with Palm Advantage attachment
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 00 00:49:19 -0800
From: Palm Developer Program <reg_dev@palm.com>
To:
The Palm Advantage attachment is included.
-----------------------------------------------
Dear Palm Solution Providers:
We've received some questions from the Palm economy regarding what we think about the new version of Windows CE, which Microsoft calls Pocket PC. We expect that Microsoft will make a very big launch event and advertising campaign starting April 19, just as they did with the last version of Windows CE.
Just like last time, some industry analysts will announce that Palm is dead, because Microsoft's handheld has more PC features than Palm handhelds. And just like last time, when the smoke clears we think Palm will still be on top.
We don't ever underestimate a competitor, though. The market is too competitive and changes too fast. Besides, there's no question that Windows CE is less unpleasant than it used to be. So we'll continue to work hard to tell Palm's story, including the amazing array of great software and hardware products that you bring to the Palm platform.
Now that we're a public company, we have very aggressive plans to drive the long-term growth of the Palm platform. We'll be revealing more about those plans in the next several months. And in the meantime, we think we have a great story to tell about Palm and our partners today. Here's some of the information we'll be distributing. You'll see this reflected in new and more aggressive marketing campaigns this summer. If you get questions about Palm's competitiveness, we encourage you to pass this information along. And we'd like to hear from you if you have comments on this memo, or ideas on things that we could do better.
Please email your comments and suggestions to devinfo@palm.com with "Pocket PC feedback" in the subject title.
Thanks very much for your support of the Palm family.
Michael Mace
VP, Product Strategy
Palm, Inc.
=================
The Palm Advantage
Palm OS(R) handhelds are the standard
- Palm OS has more than 75% market share worldwide, and our installed base doubled in the last year.
- Palm OS has more than 5,000 software programs, 10-50 times more than any other handheld platform.
- Palm OS is supported by the leaders in enterprise software, including Oracle, Siebel, SAP, Lawson, Sun, and Sybase.
Palm OS handhelds are the leader because they were designed from the ground up for your needs
- They're designed for information management when you're on the go, not to be a shrunken PC. Key features of a handheld are different from a PC:
- Simple. You can instantly access the information you need.
- Wearable. It's small and light enough that that you can carry it in a pocket or a purse all day, and the batteries last long enough that you can go on a business trip without fear of losing information.
- Mobile. You can always update your information through wired or wireless connections, even when you are on the go.
- We believe Palm remains the clear leader in all three areas.
What to ask when evaluating a handheld
- How many software programs and hardware options are available? As for any other computing product, the number of software and hardware options determine how much you can do with it. Palm OS has by far the largest selection, with more than 5,000 software programs and hundreds of hardware expansion options.
- Do the people around you use it? Handheld users share information. They use the infrared connection to exchange business cards, information, and even software programs. Make sure you're not stuck on a handheld island.
- How many companies sell it? Which companies support the platform? How many? How innovative are they? Palm licensees and OEMs include many of the most innovative companies in electronics, including leaders like Sony, Nokia, and IBM, and hot new companies like Handspring, Qualcomm, and TRG.
- Is it open? Make sure your freedom of choice is protected. Some handhelds restrict your choices by forcing you to buy all of one company's software programs, limiting you to a single expansion technology, or not working with the full range of corporate software. The Palm platform gives you freedom of choice in software, with a multitude of different spreadsheets, document editors, e-book readers, mapping programs, financial management programs, etc. (see "Did You Know," below). The Palm platform offers the most expansion options -- hundreds of external expansion products for the Palm-branded family, Springboard(TM) modules from Handspring, CompactFlash(TM) from TRG, and coming soon Memory Stick(R) technology from Sony. And Palm OS handhelds are designed to work with all leading computing environments, including PCs and Macs; Outlook and Notes; Yahoo and AOL; and the leaders in enterprise software.
- Are you forced to pay for features you don't want? Everyone wants different things from a handheld. Adding hardware features increases the weight and cost of the system. Bundling extra software costs you money, and uses extra memory which adds even more cost and reduces battery life. You'll carry your handheld with you all day -- make sure you're only carrying the programs and features you'll really want. Palm puts the basics in its systems, and makes it easy for you to add whatever you want.
- How simple is it, really? Beware of companies that try to cram an entire PC into your pocket. Adding PC-style menus, windows, and programs can make a handheld too complex, and forces you to pay for extra memory and high-powered processors that can destroy battery life. Remember, the most important features of a handheld are getting to the information you need instantly and reliably, and getting a battery life long enough that you can travel without the fear of losing your information.
- How well do the features work in real life? Sometimes features work better in a demo than they do in real life. A prime example is browsing the Web. When connected to a phone line, browsing can look very fast. But when using a wireless connection, which is what most handheld users want to do, the Web slows to a crawl. You can get browsers for the Palm platform, but we also offer Web Clipping, a Web technology designed specifically for handhelds, which allows access to Web information in under ten seconds, even over a very slow connection.
Did you know that software and hardware announced for the Palm platform includes...
--More than a dozen e-reading programs and thousands of e-books.
--Several full-function spreadsheet programs that can read and edit Excel files.
--Numerous document-editing programs that let you read and edit Word files.
--Online shopping from Amazon, Ebay, and many others.
--Several full-function database programs.
--Corporate tools that let you fill out forms, check inventory, take orders, and even make job offers through a wireless connection.
--Hundreds of games.
--Many financial management programs.
--Numerous drawing and painting programs.
--Tools that let you easily develop your own Palm OS programs in minutes.
--Two Web browsers.
--An MP3 player.
--Global Positioning System receivers and several mapping programs.
--Cellphones that are also full-function Palm-compatible handhelds.
--An electronic camera that lets you view pictures on your Palm handheld.
--Online weather from Weather.com, sports from ESPN, and news from ABC, the New York Times, and the BBC.
--A voice memo recorder.
--And thousands of others.
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
I suspect that they changed the name so they could claim "it isn't Windows" and shield it from some action they thought might happen to it in the antitrust case. What action that might be, I'm not sure. But as I've said before, the most effective remedy is going to be opening all the MS APIs. Maybe they think that they'll end up having to open the Windows source to public view, and wanted to keep this from happening with Windows CE (er, Pocket PC).
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
I think these actually look pretty good, I have had both palm and Compaq PDAs, and I, for one, found the compaq far more useful, since I use outlook at work and at home, and it was a snap to synch all my data, also, the PDA itself had a similar interface to outlook.
I like that they're including Media Player on these, too. Saves me the trouble of buying an MP3 player.
When can I get one powered by Crusoe, though?
-------- "All I want in life's a little bit of love to take the pain away" --Spiritualized
And it crashes, or so the report says. Who has time for a PDA which crashes? Microsoft really needs to learn that the Golden Rule of embedded systems is that they don't crash.
I can see why they want to get into these lucrative markets, but essentially they're trying to get money for old rope. If M$ really want to corner the embedded OS market I'm sure they could, provided they make a new product for it - but they're not going to conquer the PDA market (or, for that matter, the games console market) with the latest version of DOS.
--
It's a
-- Danny Vermin
From the CNET Review:
Crash City; Poor Character Recognizer
Unlike Palm OS's easy Grafitti writing program, Pocket PC's character recognizer is inconsistent. We like the fact that you can actually see the letters as you write them on the device's screen, but we wish that the character recognizer would translate written characters into the correct letters.
Although Pocket PC has many helpful Windows similarities, it also inherited one of the OS's most annoying traits: it crashes. Just like good ol' Windows 98, this little OS crashes more often than we'd like. Our machine froze four times in less than three hours.
A few odds and ends about Microsoft's latest inroads into the PDA market...
I think it was in the Journal today that I read something about Microsoft finding out what Apple feels like. That's not really a fair comparison -- after all, Apple's situation was (largely through their own stubbornness) having the rug pulled out from under them. WinCE was never more than a reaction, and now that Palm owns the market I don't think there will be much for them to worry about.
I do think it might be in Palm's best interest to opensource PalmOS as a preemptive strike against MS attempting to force corporate hands (i.e. we can't guarantee that your Win2K machines will be able to HotSync properly after the next service pack release). I doubt their revenue stream is all that dependent on licensing anyway; they probably make the bulk of their money off of hardware.
At any rate, I think Microsoft is playing the same card they played to dilute the Network Computer revolution (a misguided idea to begin with, but bear with me). *Of course* users want extra functionality! *Of course* they want better integration!
You tell me: do you really need a PDA that can do everything a laptop can do? I don't know about anything else, but the day I can finally afford one what I'll be looking for is a smart notebook, not something I can use to replace my Mac and Linux box with on the road (that's what laptops are for).
I don't think I'd buy a WinCE machine (old or new) unless I could nuke WinCE and replace it anyway. That's just me, though.
/Brian
Does anybody know what the battery life expectation is for these devices? I'm assuming I'm not looking at the 3 months or so I get on my old Palm Pilot, but Its about time to upgrade (touch screen problems).. I'm curious to see what the usability of these devices are.
What are the alternatives to the silly "start" menu? Has the Evil Empire finally made something to compete with the Palm?
air and light and time and space
Two lies in MS's comparison; Palms do have IRDA, it used it for hotsyncing and mobile internet connect (Nokia 8810) without any additional software. I didn't use the cabled cradle until almost a month after I got my TRGpro. Second lie, "Animated Games". Of course the Palm platform has games.
Quick observation; The 3 Palm owners use our devices very heavily. News, spreadsheets, e-mail, appointments, etc. The WinCE owner hasn't worked out how do use his device properly yet. He's had it longer than me, but you just can't work out how the WinCE system works without reading the manual, if you're not particularly computer literate. On the other hand, the two PalmV owners have read just as little of their manuals, but have no problems using their devices.
This isn't a troll, I'm not making any judgements, this is just the truth...
I'm surprised no one cited the Wired artice: Strike 3 for MS Handhelds article.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Just a note that the Symbol PPT 2700 has their Spectrum24 Wireless Networking as an option on the unit (PPT 2740). Spectrum24 is an IEEE 802.11 certified system for wireless communication over short distances using the 2.4 Ghz ISM band.
The Symbol units also have an integral barcode reader which aims the device at data collection. This is quite understandable given that Symbol have been working with barcoding technology for many, many years. (You can also use the barcode reader as a laser pointer.)
However, Symbol also have another unit that runs PalmOS (SPT 1500 and SPT 1700) and also has a Spectrum24 Wireless Networking option (SPT 1540 and SPT 1740), and also ships with a radio capable version of the HotSync product. The SPT 1700 series is a ruggedised version of the SPT 1500 series product, and more resembles the shape of the PPT 2700.
Kind of like a paper book, isn't it?
Only Microsoft could silence 50 years of innovation with one fell swoop.
--
+&x
Put the phone on the coffee table, and sit back on the sofa with the palm. The palm talks to the phone by infrared. The phone talks to the rest of the world via whatever cellular protocol Fidonet uses. I've seen him call up MapQuest with it. Took a lot of scrolling.
The phone is cordless "at both ends". It pressed my future shock buttons. That was at least a year ago.
Much like Internet Explorer, there is no way to remove Microsoft Reader from these devices, since it's burned in ROM. As you may remember from a previous article, Microsoft Reader prevents the free exchange of information by preventing the sharing of e-books, the same type of sharing you might do with a paper book that you own.
Sent from my iPhone
On the Microsoft site they have a comparison (note that it's an ASP so they can add more as they think 'em up!) table listing features of the PocketPC and comparing them to a Pilot. I thought I'd list some of the more amusing ones (I left out the description of the benefit figuring everyone would already know with most of the items:
-------
Feature: Synchronization
PPC: Fast, continuous and automatic with ActveSync.
Palm: HotSync - must push button.
Feature: Mapping Software
PPC: Pocket Streets included - with COLOR maps. (Create new maps from MapPoint or Streets & Trips.)
Palm: Yes, however clarity of maps confined to low resolutions screens.
Feature: USB Connection
PPC: Yes.
Palm: USB access via serial port adapter. No Windows 2000 support as of this writing.
Feature: Integrated AvantGo
PPC: Integrated AvantGo client
Palm: User must load from CD or Internet.
------
All typos are Microsoft, I just copied in the text. Some of the funnier things here include the perceived difficulty of hotsync (I have to press the button AGAIN?), and also the seeming horror of having to load software from a CD. Also, I find it funny how they point out there is no Windows 2000 support - is the current Palm hotsync broken in Win2K? That seems pretty suspicious considering they are releasing a PalmPC of thier own...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If you want all of this now in a reliable package
Psion have it. Full compatibility with Word, Excel etc. A full Java 1.1.4 runtime so a Full Web browser. Never crashes, boots in milliseconds.
All of that is here now it runs using EPOC. And as with the rest of the mobile revolution the major players are in Europe and using it right now, not in some fluffy time in the future.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
A choice of masters is not freedom
In the Wired article somebody cites below, I found this quote that I feel is fairly similar to the opinions being voiced on slashdot:
:), etc. all in one slim form factor?
"I think it's going to be more of the same," said Michael Mace, Palm's vice president of product strategy. "They are trying to cram a whole PC in your pocket and that's not the way to do it. It makes for a limited PC and an overstuffed handheld. If you want to make a successful handheld you have to figure out what matters most and only put that in."
That certainly is one way of looking at things - what you might call the developer's outlook on software. Keep it simple, flush out the flaws, and eschew unneeded complexity. If that means forsaking some flashy end-user features, so be it.
I couldn't disagree more. Come on people, what is the ultimate goal for handhelds in your world? In 10 years, do you want us al to be using Palm MCXXIII's with 24-bit color and wireless internet but still running minimalist PIM software?
Or, do you want a device that is a gameboy, cellphone, MP3 player, memo pad, PDA, camcorder, phaser
The problem with Microsoft's offering in the handheld market is emphatically *not* that they give the consumer too much. The problem is that they aren't delivering stable lean software. Microsoft incorporates into the Pocket PC's many of the things that ultimately I dream of using in my PDA. They are *far* ahead of the game technologically speaking. But their implementation sucks (at least it did in WinCE, and the C|Net review suggests it still suffers from those problems).
Palm by contrast, is, yes indeed, very stable. And also is not likely to enrich our lives with fantastic new consumer technologies. Contacts are contacts. Appointments are appointments. They are useful, but are they really what you crave when you think about embedded palm-held technologies? If the sluggish rate of Palm's software innovation is any judge, this form of competition from Microsoft is precisely what the industry needs.
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
>unlike the Palm, which offers limited Internet
>accessibility with "Web Clippings," the Pocket
>PC, along with a modem, allows you unlimited Web
>access
They fail to mention that the Palm, along with a modem, also allows unlimited web access. Web clipping only applies to the Palm VII, a wireless capability that the PocketPC doesn't even have.
It's a non-statement, and deceptive.